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Wednesday, 26 April 2017

Indo-European Connections

So lets proceed from where we left  :) . 

245 comments:

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Kyriakos Samelis said...

Nirjhar, do you think the etymology of Skrt. nágara "city, town" is this one > (from न (na, “on”) +‎ गर (gara, “mountain, top”)?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%97%E0%A4%B0

Mayrhofer says that nágara means also "dwelling" or "temple" and gives also Tamil nakar >

http://www.tamildictionary.org/tamil_english.php?id=12040

As far I understand, nakar (as a verb) means also "crawl, creep, move around". Also, another word nakra in Sanskrit means "alligator" or "crocodile"; tjhat reminds the IE root for "crawl, snake", but is that so?

https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1808

Nirjhar007 said...

Hi Kyriakos ,

I believed its from the sense 'not to go' i.e. settled . But I am not sure how to suggest it technically .

I don't know on mountain top can make sense :) , first towns were beside rivers not mountain tops! ;) .

'gara ' has two senses one 'swallowing' and another is to 'fluid,water' which can be connected IMO (http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=gara&script=&direction=SE&link=yes) . Giacomo IIRC suggested from nRgara(नृगर)'human swallowing or swallowed by humans' in sense of seizing . But that word is unattested though makes sense.

Its not sure the etymology . Another can be with PIE *gher 'enclose,gird' :
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%97%E0%A5%83%E0%A4%B9#Etymology
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/%C7%B5%CA%B0ort%C3%B3s

So girded by humans (Surrounded ,Protected,Fenced)) can also make sense .

The Dravidian word should be a loan :
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.1:1:983.burrow

Giacomo Benedetti said...

Hi, just a correction: I do not propose 'human swallowing' but rather 'gathering of men', froṛm the same root as Greek agora, with Prakritic passage from resonant ṛ to a.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%AC#Ancient_Greek
Now thanks to wiktionary I discover that also in Hebrew there is a similar root!
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%90%D7%92%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%94#Hebrew

Nirjhar007 said...

Thanks Giacomo, thats why I wrote IIRC :) .

But since nR is not probable although etymology is a play of conjectures mostly ;) . Perhaps a Kentum form from this root :
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/k%CA%B7el-

Attested in Sanskrit as Carati{चरति} ( Root Car and also Cal):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%9A%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?script=HK&beginning=0+&tinput=cal&trans=Translate&direction=SE

So 'not moving' , Giacomo?.

Nirjhar007 said...

^Provable instead of probable.

Giacomo Benedetti said...

No, that is not possible, because of the voiced sound (and also semantically it is not strong). BTW, the etymology I have given is not mine, is cited by Mayrhofer and I find it convincing. It is also thinkable from nara-gara the second ra was lost for simplification, but since nagara is not a Vedic word a Prakritic form is likely.

Nirjhar007 said...

See also this :

''http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.0:1:49.soas

agāra 52 agāra n. ʻ house ʼ ĀśvGr̥., āgāra -- Mn. [Prob. ← Drav., Mayrhofer EWA i 17 with lit.]
Pa. ā̆gāra -- , °aka -- n., Pk. āgāra -- , ag°, gāra -- n.
agnyagārá -- , *indrāgāra -- , *upavasathāgāra -- , *kapālāgāra -- , *kīṭikāgāra -- , *kulāgāra -- , kūṭāgāra -- , kōśāgāra -- , kōṣṭhāgāra -- , *kōlhuvagāra -- , *khaṇḍitāgāra -- , garbhāgāra -- , *ghōṭāgāra -- , *bhakṣāgāra -- , bhāṇḍāgāra -- , *bhūmiyagāra -- , *bhraṣṭrāgāra -- , *madhyāgāra -- , *mahāgāra -- , *mahānasāgāra -- , *rājakulāgāra -- , vāsāgāra -- , *sabhyāgāra -- ''

Nirjhar007 said...

Okay Giacomo , I sense that naragara -> nagara is a valid possibility , yes .

Here the PIE root :
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0574

Kyriakos Samelis said...

I was thinking about carati (< kwel/ *kwer) when we were talking about Sumerian ĝiri [FOOT] (10822x: Lagash II, Ur III) wr. ĝiri3; me-ri; ĝiri16 "via, by means of, under the authority of someone; foot; path" Akk. šēpu.

According to Pokorny: Old Indian cárati, calati `bewegt sich, wandert, weidet, treibt' etc. (heavy basis in cáritum, caritá-, cīrṇá-; carítra- n. `foot, leg'.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

There is also a Ge'ez word əgr 'foot' (plural: ā'gar).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ge%27ez
I don't know if there is a Nostratic etymology for this.

About Nirjhar's proposal, I think that *kwel fits good for a word for "town", since we have wors like Lat. "incolo", "inquilinus" etc, words we have been talking about at Giacomo's posts. I think also that nagara's etymology according to Mayrhofer is not a solved issue.

I'm trying mostly to find out if Sumerian niĝir, wr. niĝir; li-bi-ir "herald" Akk. nagiru "(town) crier, herald" is related to Skt. nagara "town" (or Tamil nakar). If the etymology of niĝir has to do with a notion "cry" then they cannot be related; but if we think of a meaning like "messanger" (which includes notions like moving, feet etc) perhaps they do. The na- part is not easy to explain though.

Kyriakos Samelis said...


The semitic etymology of the Ge'ez word for foot is this one (from Starling):

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=1995&root=config

Proto-Semitic: *ʔi(n)gi/ur-
Meaning: foot
Modern Arabic: SYR ʔižǝr [Maʕṣarānī-Segal 24], ʔǝǧǝr [Noeldeke ZA 20:414], ʔiǧr [Dozy 1 11]; DAT_ ʔiǧr do. [GD 63] (relationship to *riǧl- is doubted [ibid.])
Geʕez (Ethiopian): ʔǝgr, pl. ʔǝgar (also 'measure') [LGz 11]
Tigre: ʔǝgǝr [LH 386]
Tigrai (Tigriñña): ʔǝgri [Bass 568]
Amharic: ǝgǝr (also 'leg') [K 1325], ARG ingir [LGaf 173] do.
Gafat: ǝgʷrä [ibid. 173]
Harari: igir, ingir [LHar 28]
East Ethiopic: SEL WOL ZWY ǝngǝr (also 'leg') [LGur 26]

Nirjhar007 said...

Thanks Kyriakos :) . Its perhaps also possible that Indic word is a loan from Sumerian ! :) .

Aram said...

Hi
Was the case of thunder god Teshub/ Tushpa already discussed?
I mean comparing it with IE Deus Pater?

Giacomo Benedetti said...

About nagara, I had another idea, that I see was already present in Monier-Williams, when he writes: "prob. not fr. naga + ra". Now, naga means mountain, probably from na-ga, not going, immovable. -ra is a common suffix (see dhīra, vipra, mudra, medhira...)
In Mayrhofer, it is said that nagara in Pāli means 'fortress, fortified city', and in Khotanese noγor means 'fortress, castle'. So, it seems that originally it meant a fortress, maybe a hill fort like in Rajasthan or Madhya Pradesh, and we can compare with German Burg itself, that is related with the root of Berg 'mountain' and 'tower': https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/burgz
There the idea is highness, here would be stability, like in dṛḍha 'firm; stronghold' or the simple connection with mountains.

Nirjhar007 said...

Aram,

I think yes, I don't think many topics survived from the etymology storm we create ;) .

Giacomo,

I think , still don't like the mountain connection . But as I suspected 'not moving' 'not going' i.e. settled of course is a good possibility.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Nirjhar,

I remember also an Akkadian word igāru = "wall", perhaps that fits also to the notion of "dwelling". Look also here:

https://books.google.gr/books?id=ynEWVCLMQY4C&pg=PA221&lpg=PA221&dq=igaru+akkadian+wall&source=bl&ots=Mi95JWOfJ9&sig=kR8SxmajTQFhkxfNQK5--Rlvi2k&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwihnfb1zcfTAhVFnRQKHabGBhkQ6AEIMzAD#v=onepage&q=igaru%20akkadian%20wall&f=false

Kyriakos Samelis said...

I think we have to deal again with many similar roots. Bear in mind that in case of a Semitic word, an initial ni (or ne- or- na-) can indicate an instruction which in Hebrew is called the Niph'al construction; for example, in the Hebrew word Giacomo has posted, the Niph'al construction is this one:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%A0%D7%90%D7%92%D7%A8#Hebrew

It's like the passive or middle voice in Greek (actually a bit more complicated than that); Here is the chapter from Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar:

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Gesenius%27_Hebrew_Grammar/51._Niph%CB%93al

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Similar roots, for example, are *kʷel / *kʷer (with incolo, carati etc); *gher for "encircle; *ger-1, *gere- "to gather, put together" (with agora, grex etc); *kʷel-3 "swarm, flock, shoal, school, clan, herd, crowd".

About Sum. niĝir "herald" (as "crier") there is also a comparable root *ger-2 "to scream"; Pokorny gives here Skt. járatē `it rushes, sounds, crackles, shouts', jarā `the rustling, murmuring'; or to *ĝā̆r- or *gʷer- according to Pokorny - modern reconstruction for this one gʷerH-:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/g%CA%B7erH-

Also there is Sk. gir, which Mayrhofer gives to this same root:

http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?beginning=0+&tinput=gir&trans=Translate&direction=SE

Akkadian nagiru could perhaps explain the initial na- as a semitic grammatic element. The labiovelar of this root *gʷer- could explain perhaps more easily the assimilated (Emesal) form libir of "niĝir".

I think Bomhard gives all the nostratic forms of these roots (usually with a "k' " instead of a "g", according to the glottalic theory).

Kyriakos Samelis said...

or perhaps ni- could be a Skt. grammatic element? For example like in here:
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=nigAra&direction=SE&script=HK&link=yes&beginning=

btw, the "nr-gara" reminded me Gr. μανδραγόρας mandragoras "mandrake", a human-like root, which is supposed to be of Iranian origin; could be from "man" and "swallow"? (not necessarily meaning "eaten" but something like "hidden in the ground").

Kyriakos Samelis said...

About the meaning "fortress, fortified city" for nagara, in Halloran's Lexicon there is a word ĝiri16, ĝir16 [GÌR×KÁR]: fortress, refuge.
Also ĝiri5, ĝir5[KAŠ4]: n., refugee, stranger. v., to run, trot; to seek refuge.
I haven't find them in ePSD though.

Nirjhar007 said...

Kyriakos ,

From Bomhard I have found another candidate but again not the explanation of na- :

Proto-Nostratic root *k’w¦ar- (~ *k’w¦ǝr-):
(vb.) *kw’¦ar- ‘to rest, to stay, to remain’;
(n.) *k’w¦ar-a ‘stillness, quietude, repose, rest, resting place’; (adj.) ‘still, quiet,
at rest’
A. Proto-Afrasian (?) *kw’¦ar- ‘to stay, to remain, to rest, to settle down’:
Proto-Semitic *kw’ar-ar- ‘to stay, to remain, to rest, to settle down’ >
Moabite ḳr ‘town’; Ugaritic ḳr ‘dweller (?), dwelling (?)’; Arabic ḳarra ‘to
settle down, to establish oneself, to become settled or sedentary, to take up one’s residence, to rest, to abide, to dwell, to reside, to remain, to stay, to linger’, maḳarr ‘abode, dwelling, habitation; residence; storage place; seat, center; site, place; station; position (at sea)’, ḳarār ‘fixedness, firmness, solidity; sedentariness, settledness, stationariness, sedentation; steadiness, constancy, continuance, permanency, stability; repose, rest, stillness, quietude; duration; abode, dwelling, habitation; residence, resting place’; Sabaean ḳrr ‘settlement’. Zammit 2002:337. Proto-Semitic *k’ar-ay- ‘(vb.)to stay, to remain, to settle down; (n.) town, village, settled area’ > Arabic
ḳarya ‘village, hamlet, small town, rural community’; Hebrew ḳiryāh
[hy*r+q]! ‘town, city’; Palmyrene ḳry ‘settled area’; Tigrinya ḳäräyä ‘to
remain’; Amharic ḳärrä ‘to be left, to remain, to be missing, to be absent;
to stay away, to absent oneself’; Gurage (Muher) ḳärrä, (Gogot) ḳerrä,
(Soddo) ḳirrä ‘to be absent, to stay away, to remain behind, to disappear,
to vanish, to be lost’. Murtonen 1989:385; Klein 1987:593—594; Leslau
1979:494. Berber: Tuareg aɣrəm ‘town, village’, taɣrəmt ‘a small village,
small castle’; Mzab aɣrəm ‘city, town, village, town surrounded by
ramparts’; Nefusa aɣrəm ‘town’; Zenaga irmi ‘village, settlement’;
Tamazight iɣrəm ‘village, fortified village, granary’, tiɣrəmt ‘fortified
house’. Cushitic: Highland East Cushitic: Hadiyya k’arar- ‘to settle (out)’;
Kambata k’arar- ‘to settle (out)’. Hudson 1989:288 and 328.
B. (?) Dravidian: Kannaḍa kūr ‘to sit down’, kūrisu ‘to cause to sit’; Telugu
kūr(u)cuṇḍu ‘to sit, to be seated’; Pengo kuc- ‘to sit’; Manḍa kuh- ‘to sit’.
Burrow—Emeneau 1984:173, no. 1900.
C. Proto-Indo-European *kw’¦er-/*kw’¦or-/*kw’¦r̥ - ‘gentle, mild, calm, at rest,
still’: Gothic qairrus ‘friendly, gentle’, qairrei ‘gentleness’; Old Icelandic
kvirr, kyrr ‘still, quiet, at rest’, kyrra (f.) ‘calmness, calm’, kyrra ‘to calm,
to still; to become calm’; Faroese kyrrur ‘still, quiet’, kyrra ‘to
domesticate, to tame’; Norwegian kyrr, kjørr, kvar, kver ‘still, quiet’,
kjørra ‘to domesticate, to tame’; Swedish kvar ‘still, quiet’; Danish kvKr
‘still, quiet’; Middle Low German querre ‘tame’; Middle High German
kürre ‘tame, docile, gentle, mild’ (New High German kirre). Mann 1984—
1987:357 *gu̯ersos (*gu̯ors-, *gu̯r̥s-) ‘sweet, soft, pleasant’; Orël 2003:229
Proto-Germanic *kwerruz; Kroonen 2013:318 Proto-Germanic *kwerru-
‘quiet, still’; Feist 1939:386; Lehmann 1986:275; De Vries 1977:341;
Falk—Torp 1903—1906.I:434 Germanic base *kwerru-; Kluge—Mitzka
1967:371 *gßersu-; Kluge—Seebold 1989:371 Proto-Germanic kwerru-
‘quiet, tame’.
............................................................................

The Afrasian elements are close.

Nirjhar007 said...

From Starling :

Proto-Afro-Asiatic: *ḳʷar-
Meaning: block of houses, settlement, town
Semitic: *ḳʷary- 'town'
Berber: *a-ɣaram 'town, settlement'
Western Chadic: *kwaru- 'hut' 1, 'foundation of a house' 2, 'abode, world, life' 3
Central Chadic: *kwakwar- 'world, region'
East Chadic: *kwVr- 'place' (?)
Low East Cushitic: *ḳor- 'block'
South Cushitic: *ḳor- 'brick house'
Omotic: *ḳer- 'house, dwelling'
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fafaset&text_number=+951&root=config

There is also of course :

Proto-Afro-Asiatic: *ʔigar- ~ *ga/iʔur-
Meaning: wall, house, dwelling
Borean etymology: Borean etymology
Semitic: *ʔigār- 'wall' 1, 'roof' 2 ~ *gʷar- 'back of the house'
Berber: *gVrur- 'enclosure'1, 'wall'2, 'place, yard' 3
Egyptian: d_rw 'part of house' (MK), d_ry 'wall', d_ry.t 'dwelling' (gr)
Western Chadic: *gar- 'village, town' 1, 'stone wall' 2, 'town-wall' 3, 'low wall or mount' 4, 'corn bin' 5
Central Chadic: *gaHur- 'enclosure' 1, 'shed' 2, 'corral' 3
East Chadic: *giHVr- 'hut' 1, ' house' 2, 'compound' 3, 'village' 4, 'dwelling place' 5
Beḍauye (Beja): gaʔra, gaarʔa 'yard'
Low East Cushitic: *guʔur- 'house' 1, 'wall' 2
High East Cushitic: *goʔr- 'shed'
South Cushitic: *garVʔ- 'wall of the verandah'
Omotic: *gVHol- 'house' - cf.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fafaset&text_number=+943&root=config
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2feura%2fglobet&text_number=+354&root=config

Kyriakos Samelis said...

I think a root *kw’¦ar- ‘to stay, to remain, to rest, to settle down’ fits good also for Anatolian "pir" and "parna" for "house" (par- < kwar, p < kw like in Greek (Aeolic form) or mayber Celtic. Hittite parna "house" has also a final -na (instead of an initial one).
Maybe "na-" could mean just "in"? (like in-colo; kwar and kwal must share a common origin). If nagara has a meaning of fortress (or perhaps as refugee), maybe there was a notion of "move in" (f.e. to find shelter, to escape, to live in safety etc). Well, I'm not sure about that.

Giacomo Benedetti said...

I find very interesting Berber *a-ɣaram 'town, settlement': Tuareg aɣrəm ‘town, village’, taɣrəmt ‘a small village, small castle’; Mzab aɣrəm ‘city, town, village, town surrounded by ramparts’; Nefusa aɣrəm ‘town’; Zenaga irmi ‘village, settlement’; Tamazight iɣrəm ‘village, fortified village, granary’, tiɣrəmt ‘fortified
house’.
Because it is very close to Skt. grāma. But grāma means also a troop, a nomadic group, and originally indicates a group (also the gamut of notes!) rather than a settlement. In Middle Persian, grāmag means 'wealth, possession', in Baluchi grām is 'burden', in Russian gromada is a 'big heap', in Polish 'crowd, heap, village community'. So, the root is that of a collection, a group from *gr- 'to collect, gather'.
In Hebrew, we have already seen a root 'gr 'to hoard, store, gather' that corresponds very closely: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%90%D7%92%D7%A8#Hebrew

Then, we have Skt./Prakrit āgāra 'apartment, dwelling, house', that semantically seems quite close to the PAA root above.

About nagara, the connection is difficult, because if na- does not come from nṛ/nara 'man', it is not explained. However, now I think that a reference to men is not likely because every settlement concerns men first of all. The Turner entry is interesting: http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.2.soas.419647
I have already remarked the Pali and Khotanese meaning, here we can observe that in Oriya, na(h)ara means 'palace, king's harem'. In the compounds, there is antarnagara 'the palace of a king' (in Ramayana). We can add Tamil nakar 'house, abode, mansion, temple, palace, town, city'. So, it is clear that it meant also a palace or abode and not only town. It seems that the only IE etymology can be from naga 'not moving' (cp. also aga). The idea coud really be that of a particularly stable building like a palace or fort, or settlement like a fortified town.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

I think that the roots *kwel/*kwer and *ger are somehow connected (and this is not only inside the IE family), perhaps due to some kind of lenition (Giacomo has compared already Sumerian gigir "chariot" to the IE root of "circle", a reduplicated *kwel). For example, the meaning of "troop" could lead us to Gr. telos (< *kwel); in Sumerian, "tilla" (supposing it is from *kwil) means "street, town square, also market-place", according to J. Halloran (like in Gr. agora "marketplace" < *ger); even the root *pelH, like in Gr. "polis", for "town", could be connected somewow to "kwel and be a distant relative of agara (if this is from *ger, and further from *kwer / kwar); also about the pir / parna roots for house in Hititte and AfroAsiatic (Egyptian) could be connected, as I said. We assume of course some Nostratic here.

About Berber *a-ɣaram 'town, settlement', I think it looks like Sumerian agrun "cella; bedroom; a ritual building; the sanctuary of the goddess Ningal" Akk. agarunnu; kummu; šutukku (there is also a writing A.GAR.KA "part of temple"'; agarniĝin, "an official", agrig "steward, housekeeper", Akk. abarakku; also abrig "a cultic functionary; a type of priest", Akk.  abriqqu "steward, housekeeper").

The meaning "sanctuary, ritual building" could lead us also to Tamil nakar 'house, abode, mansion, temple, palace, town, city'. So, we are looking about an initial na-. I just though about Gr. ναός naos "temple, sanctuary"), from *nawos and now I am asking for any suggestion about this. Wikipedia gives the etymology:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BD%CE%B1%CF%8C%CF%82

For Proto-Hellenic *nahwós, perhaps from Proto-Indo-European *nes- (“to join with, to conceal oneself”). The verb is ναίω naíō "to dwell, abide.
"https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BD%CE%B1%CE%AF%CF%89#Ancient_Greek

proposed IE root here:
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1380

I'm not sure if a root *nahw- could be connected to Tamil nakar. Wikipedia lead me to a comparison to the root of "boat, ship" : *néh₂us. In Indo-Iranian *nāwiyas. This is not so absurd, in religion "ship" and "temple" are connected.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/n%C3%A9h%E2%82%82us

I have this idea: In Proto-Germanic there is a word *nakwô m "boat, ship", from this root:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/nakw%C3%B4

I thougth about a possible *nakwar, Maybe it has to do with "turning". Because nakar as a verb means "crawl, creep, move around". And the proposed *nes root of naos has also a meaning of "re-turning".

Nirjhar007 said...

Very interesting :) .

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Ok, let's see: first, about ναίω naiō 'to dwell, inhabit', it has also a causal type "give (one) to dwell in, make habitable, build, let one dwell, settle him."

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=nai%2Fw&la=greek&can=nai%2Fw0#lexicon

Another (possibly) related word in Greek is νάσσω nassō 'press, squeeze close, stamp down' (also 'pile up with, stuff quite full'), which stands close to ναίω; both verbs could be from *nas, but nassō has also forms with nag-, so it could be maybe from some *nag- (or *nak-). Maybe there is a kind of lenition here, as I 've said.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dna%2Fssw

Now, in Sumerian, we find words like na, wr. na4na "pestle; a stone" Akk. na'u; there is also na, wr. na4; na; na4na "stone; stone weight" Akk. abnu.

Another word is naĝa, wr. ĝešnaĝa3; naĝa3ĝa2; ĝešnaĝa4 "mortar" Akk. esittu. That one, I think, could be compared to the above verb νάσσω nassō 'press, squeeze close, stamp down', since its possible root is *nag-.

In Hesychius there is a word · ἐρείσει. λιθάσει (naxei = ereisei, lithasei - νάξει is future, singular, 3rd person of νάσσω). The first verb 'ereisei' means 'he'll cause to lean, prop, he'll make things firm, he'll support'. The second verb ('lithasei') means "he'll stone someone, he'll throw stones" (from λίθος lithos 'stone'). So, I think there is a root *nag- having a meaning 'to build / to stone', connected probably with these Sum. words.

Of course there is also Sum. nagar, wr. nagar "carpenter" Akk. nagarum, which looks identical with Skt. nagara and Tamil nakar. Hebrew 'naggar' (craftsman) is translated in Greek as "tektōn", which means "carpenter, builder". So, I think that we have a notion 'build' also here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tekt%C5%8Dn

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Another question I have about nagara / nakar is about its possible relationship (as an indic loanword perhaps) with the Gr. word μέγαρον megaron 'large room, hall; (in the plural) house, palace; sanctuary, shrine' etc:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaron

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BC%CE%AD%CE%B3%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%BF%CE%BD#Ancient_Greek

According to Wikipedia: 'Of Semitic origin; compare Arabic مَغَارَة (maḡāra, “cave”), Hebrew מְעָרָה (məʿārâ, “cave”), Ugaritic 𐎎𐎙𐎗𐎚 (mġrt, “cave”). Influenced in form and meaning by μέγας (mégas, “big, large”)'.

Yet, even if it is influenced by μέγας "big, large", I don't think that a meaning "cave" fits well here. It seems to be like a lage habitation, not a cave, and the meaning of Tamil nakar as "palace" or "temnple" could fit better, I think.

Megara is also a name of a town in Greece, not far from Athens:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megara

Kyriakos Samelis said...

The Semitic word for "cave" must be connected to the meaning "pits (for sacrifices)" (megara < magara - see IV below).

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*m%3Aentry+group%3D24%3Aentry%3Dme%2Fgaron

not to be confused with megaron as "large room, hall, palace, sanctuary, shrine, tomb", I believe.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Wikipedia gives an unexpected etymology for Arabic maḡāra:
Persian غار (ğâr) 'cave, tavern': From Arabic غَار (ḡār), from Arabic مَغَارَة (maḡāra), from Parthian mgʾdg (maγādag, “cave”).

I think the comparison of arabic maḡāra to Hebrew məʿārâ, “cave” suggests a kind of lenition between the two words.

I also haven't found a root for "cave" giving Arabic maḡāra; btw, searching about Semitic roots for "pit, hole", I've found this one at Starling:

Proto-Semitic: *ḥapr-
Afroasiatic etymology: Afroasiatic etymology
Meaning: 'big well' 1, 'hole, cavity' 2, 'dig' 3
Arabic: ḥafr- 1, ḥfr i, 3
Jibbali: ḥfǝr-et 2

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=+993&root=config

Looks like Sum. habruda "hole" Akk. hurru. Apparently no tracable IE here.

Another root is this one:
Proto-Afro-Asiatic: *bVʔr-
Meaning: pit, well
Borean etymology: Borean etymology
Semitic: *buʔr-
Notes: ND 225 adds some Berb. and Chad. forms

Number: 1918
Proto-Semitic: *buʔr-
Afroasiatic etymology: Afroasiatic etymology
Meaning: 'pit, well, hole'
Akkadian: būr-
Phoenician: bʔr
Hebrew: bōr
Arabic: buʔr-at-
Epigraphic South Arabian: bʔr
Gurage: bʷǝr
Notes: Moab br *-u- < HS *-a- after a labial

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fafaset&text_number=2620&root=config

Perhaps compared to Sum. burud "breach, hole; depression, low-lying area, depth; to perforate; (to be) deep" Akk. palāšu; šapālu; pilšu; šupālu; šuplu
Also, no apparent IE connection here.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Only this one *bhrew-er/n- meaning:spring (of water):

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+124&root=config

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Maybe proto Semitic *ḥapr- comes from Sum. habrud(a) and not the opposite. According to J. Halloran it's habrud: cesspit (2006 edition "animal burrow"); pit, hole; cave, cavern (hab, 'to stink', + bùru(-d), 'hole').

The other similar word nakra "alligator" or "crocodile" (also makara in Skt., magar in Hindi etc) is of uknown origin; perhaps connected to a notion of "moving"? (like "moving with feet?").

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%B0#Sanskrit

There is also Tamil nakar "crawl, creep, move around". Nirjhar, any suggestions?

Kyriakos Samelis said...

makara / magar looks like a (centum like) reflex of the root *māk̑- : mək̑- 'long and slender'.

https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1220

English meaning: long, slender
German meaning: `lang and dönn, schlank'

Material: Av. mas- `long', compounds masyā̊ `the größere', Sup. masiṣta-, ap. maϑišta- `the höchste', av. masah- n. `length, greatness, bulk, extent' (*mas- for *mis- from idg. mǝs- through influence of mazyā̊ `größer': μέγας), gr. μά̆σσω, μά̆σσων (*μᾰκι̯ων) besides μᾶσσον (after ἆσσον `nöher') `lönger', μήκιστος `the löngste', μῆκος, dor. μᾶκος n. `length', Μάκετα `Hochland', Μακεδόνες hence `Hochlönder', μακεδνός `slim', nachhom. μηκεδανός ds., μακρός `long' (= lat. macer, dt. mager); perhaps μάκαρ n. `Glöckseligkeit';

lat. macer, -cra, -crum `lean', maceō, -ēre `lean sein', maciēs f. `Magerkeit';

perhaps here air. mēr m. `finger' (*makro-);

ahd. magar, ags. mæger, aisl. magr `lean'; in addition with l-suffix hitt. ma-ak-la-an-te-eš (maklantes) Nom. Pl. `lean'.

References: WP. II 223 f., WH. II 2, Benveniste BSL. 33, 140 f.
Page(s): 699

The question is if the word for crocodile is IE or not, I guess.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Nirhar,
another Sumerian word which look similar to Skt./Prakrit āgāra 'apartment, dwelling, house' is this one (from ePSD):

aĝarin [MATRIX] (18x: Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. aĝarin4; aĝarin3; aĝarin5; a-ĝa2-ri-in; aĝa3-ri2; aĝarin; aĝarin2; aĝarinx(|AB×HA|); aĝarinx(|LAGAB×HAL|); a-ĝa2-ri-im "matrix, mother-creator; beer mash, beer bread; crucible" Akk. agarinnu; bappiru; ummu

not that it means "dwelling, house" of course ( < *kwar/kwer/*kwel/); but, I would say it could be from the other *kwer root, meaning "to do, to make, to form".

The initial a- could be derived from some glottal (or laryngeal), or maybe from an *en- (= in) > a, as sometimes (rarely) does happen.

https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1098

According to Halloran, it's agarin(2,3): father; mother; womb. agarin4,5: beer-wort; crucible, vat. At 2006 edition Halloran ellaborates: agarin(2,3): father; mother; womb; mold, molding, casting. agarin4,5: beer-wort; crucible, vat (zabar aga, 'a bronze beer vessel' + rin2, 'to be bright').

According to Foxvog, it's aĝarin(AMA.d INANNA), àga-rí(-n) mother(creatress); (fertile) soil; mold, crucible; mixing basin (Heimpel, CUSAS 5, 239).

Similar roots (to *kwer/ *kwel) for "womb"

*gu̯elbh-
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0715

*ku̯elp- 'to curve, vault' (especially Gr. kolpos)
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1073

A derivation from a *kwer could fit also, I think, for the other meaning 'beer mash, beer bread'
Not at all sure, but maybe even 'bappir' could be from *kwer (-pir < *kwer); the bap- part reminds the bap- of Gr. βάπτω https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B2%CE%AC%CF%80%CF%84%CF%89#Ancient_Greek

since "bappir" is supposed an ingredient for beer making:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bappir


Kyriakos Samelis said...

There is an initial a- in Skt. ákar (root aorist), which reminds of the initial a- in aĝarin.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/k%CA%B7er-

About the affiliation of "do, form, mould" and "beget" in Sumerian, let me put also here this link about Sumerian "tud" = "hit" (as "to form / make statues"), having also a meaning "to beget" (the verb used for "make", in other occasions, is dim):

https://books.google.gr/books?id=Fg7Sf5tIqZAC&pg=PA112&lpg=PA112&dq=akkadian+sculpture+tud+sumerian&source=bl&ots=pNmMhFiaxw&sig=aPMK7yR7TkINPVGt6pVETrkN1f0&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjK-9mNsavTAhUNaFAKHS4eBb4Q6AEIODAJ#v=onepage&q=akkadian%20sculpture%20tud%20sumerian&f=false



Nirjhar007 said...

Fascinating stuff Kyriakos :) .

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Hi Nirjhar, I'm glad you find it interesting ;)

The -in ending of aĝarin looks like the Skt. -in of karin "doing, making" - or kArin "producing"; (though, I think, akarin means "not doing" : D ) ; another word akArin means "produced in a mine".

http://www.spokensanskrit.de/index.php?script=HK&beginning=0+&tinput=karin+&trans=Translate&direction=SE

http://www.spokensanskrit.de/index.php?script=HK&beginning=0+&tinput=akarin+&trans=Translate&direction=SE

I'not sure if karin "elephant" is connected, too; if from *kwer maybe it's like Gr. teras or pélōr, "supernatural monster": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%B5%CE%BB%CF%8E%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82)

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Also, about the meaning of aĝarin as 'vat' or 'basin' there is another *kwer:

https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1099

I've made, meanwhile, some random thoughts about Sum. habruda 'pit, hole; cave etc' concerning its etymology as hab 'to stink' -according to ePSD also (to be) malodorous, fetid- + bùru(-d), 'hole'. 'habru-' reminded me Gr. sapro- 'putrid, rotten' https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sapro-

this ambiguous root sap- has been connected to Skrt. kyaku = 'mushroom, fungus'; yet, this doesn't seem convincing to Mayrhofer and Chantraine.

Since a "putrid hole" looks like a grave, I thought also about Gr. τάφος taphos "grave, tomb" (from θάπτω thapto "to bury") and a similar word τάφρος taphros "ditch, trench".

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CE%AC%CF%86%CE%BF%CF%82

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dta%2Ffros

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B8%CE%AC%CF%80%CF%84%CF%89#Ancient_Greek

θάπτω thapto "to bury" has the same form with another verb σκάπτω skapto 'to dig'

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%AC%CF%86%CE%B7

Pokorny puts skapto in this well known root https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1738
there is another Sum. word hab meaning 'pot'.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

About aĝarin again, perhaps we don't have very much to bother about the initial a-; I've noticed that in Akkadian there is also a second type "garinnu"(other type: "agarinnu").

http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=garinnu&language=rawakkadian

https://books.google.gr/books?id=-qIuVCsRb98C&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&dq=agarinnu+garinnu++akkadian&source=bl&ots=BqjhBrQSEC&sig=Cp1JpyX3bfu-6M9xoM5StlaPk-M&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiKwc6FqPLTAhWIK1AKHYxNCOsQ6AEIITAA#v=onepage&q=agarinnu%20garinnu%20%20akkadian&f=false

This https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0930

I've also the impression that *ku̯er-'to do, make, form' must be connected to k̑er-, k̑erə-, k̑rē- 'to grow, increase', from which there is Gr. κοῦρος kouros "son, young male", which, again in my opinion, is related to Sum. ĝuruš, guruš "young adult male; able-bodied male worker; semi-free male worker" (Akk. eţlu). This explains perhaps the meaning as "male worker" (doer).
Especially Skt. karin 'doer, doing, making' reminded me the female Gr. name Korinna (deminutive of kore / koure, fem. of kouros)
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Corinna

Kyriakos Samelis said...

About nágara and nakar again, I made a thought about the root *nes- of Gr. naos "temple" (Giacomo would say *nas-), that it looks like a satem version of an unattested root **nāk̑- (I though about such a possibility seeing Indic mas- of the *māk̑- root); and then I thought about a name of a Greek temple, Anakeion, a sanctuary of Dioskouroi (sons of Zeus) in Athens:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anakeion
Dioskouroi were called anakes (lords) < from anaktes, pl. of anax = king, lord (we've been talking about this word at Giacomo's posts and its proposed etymology from *wen-aǵ-), also "anaktoron" means "palace":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anax
(The aǵ- of this etymology is from ago < *aĝ- *heĝ-, like in agros "field", compared with Sum. agar "field", also with ak, meaning "to do, to make, to act, to perform" in Sumerian).

Then I thought that a root which could look like **nāk̑ could be this one:
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0482
enek̑-, nek̑-, enk̑-, n̥k̑- 'to reach, obtain'.

If the word "near" comes from this root
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=near&allowed_in_frame=0
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/near

(having also in mind that Arabic maḡāra corresponds to Hebrew məʿārâ) (“cave”), we could imagine perhaps a kind of **na- ( < *nēhw "nigh")
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/n%C4%93hw
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/n%C4%93hwaz

connected to nágara; maybe the meaning is that in cities people come closer (the nakt- of the other similar root I've mentioned means also "pressed").


Kyriakos Samelis said...

About Arabic maḡāra and Hebrew məʿārâ (“cave”), I remembered that Nirjhar, when talked about Bomhard's Proto-Nostratic (n.) *k’¦war-b-a ‘the inside, the middle, interior, inward part’ (at January 2nd, 2017) made a reference to this Skt. word, coming from *kwar- /*gwar-.

http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?beginning=0+&tinput=garta&trans=Translate

Also Giacomo at his first post about the Sumerian - IE connection, wrote (it is stated on the list):
"One particular case is Sum. PA.TE.SI ‘lord of the city’, because it is the cuneiform spelling corresponding to the Sumerian ensi, and it recalls PIE *patis, Skt. patis, Avestan paiti- ‘lord, master, husband’, Latin potis sum 'I am master, able', hospes (*hosti-pets) 'lord of the guest, host', Greek despotes 'master of the house, absolute ruler'. Gordon Whittaker notices (see here) also the form GAR(A).PA.TE.SI, which recalls an IE compound like Sanskrit gṛhapatis 'master of the house', cp. Avestan gǝrǝδa-, Gothic gards 'house', Lithuanian gardas 'pen, enclosed area', Old Church Slav. gradь 'town, fort, garden', or -gara probably found in Skt. nagara- 'town, city' (from *nṛ-gara 'gathering of men'), or the already mentioned Greek agorà 'assembly, place of assembly' (see gar above). However, from the Pennsylvania Sumerian Dictionary GAR appears to be normally used in compounds as synonym of niĝ 'thing, possession'."

First, Sum. niĝ 'thing, posession' maybe is related to IE enek̑-, nek̑-, enk̑-, n̥k̑- 'to reach, obtain' (maybe labialized). Note that in Greek this same root enek̑-, nek̑-, enk̑-, n̥k̑ (maybe with a different initial laryngeal?) is related to the notion "to carry, to bring", in ἐνεγκεῖν enenkein (used in some tenses of the verb φέρω phero "to carry, to bear"), making perhaps comprehesible this use of niĝ as a synonym of Sum. gar "to heap up" (Akk. garānu "to stack up, pile on"). Of course, this root nek̑ becomes in Sanskrit also NAS (as the NAS from *nes).
btw, nagara reminded me of another town's name "Ancyra" in Phrygia (today's Ankara, the capital of Turkey), which sounds like "anchor" ("ankyra" in Greek), yet I doubt if this is the real meaning.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Parenthesis: here, Sum. niĝ has been compared to Gr. νίκη nī́kē "victory, success"; as something you manage to obtain. The usual etymology is from *neik-; I wonder though if it's from the zero grade n̥k̑- of this same root enek̑- mentioned above.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BD%CE%AF%CE%BA%CE%B7#Ancient_Greek


Kyriakos Samelis said...

About niĝ "thing, possesion; something" (etymology from ni "self" and aĝ2 "to mete out to", according to J. Halloran) and the possible connection to νίκη nī́kē "victory", one could notice that in Sumerian "a2...ĝar" means "to defeat, to win, to conquer"; and since the writing of ĝar is the same with niĝ2, we could perhaps imagine a same meaning for niĝ... I think that both verbs are related to a semantic field of "establishment" or "acquisition". Also, the Emesal form of niĝ ( = aĝ2) reminds of the comparison nagara / agāra in Sanskrit.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

About Sum. ni "self" (wr. ni2), I think a comparable word could be Gr. μιν min or νιν nin meaning 'him(self), her(self), it(self)'.

μιν (min) ionic acc. sg. of the pron. of the 3rd pers. (v. ἵ) through all genders, for αὐτόν, αὐτήν, αὐτο always enclitic, Hom., Hdt.; doric and attic νιν (nin)

I.Hom. joins μὶν αὐτόν himself, as a stronger form; but αὐτόν μιν is reflexive, oneself, for ἑαυτόν, Od.
II.rarely as 3 pers. pl. for αὐτούς, αὐτάς, αὐτά.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dmin

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Another word which looks like 'nakt-' is Toch. B ñakte 'god', TchA ñkät, both from PTch *ñäk(ä)te According to the dictionary of Tocharian B by Douglas Q. Adams:

" ñakte (nm.) ‘god’ [voc. ñakta often used as respectful address to a king] [ñakteṃts ñakte is an epithet of the Buddha or of a maitreya]... extra-Tocharian connections are not altogether clear. VW (326-327) suggests a derivation from PIE *h1neḱ- ‘obtain, take’ [: Sanskrit aśnóti ‘attains,’ náśati ‘id.,’ Lith. nešù ‘carry,’ TchB enk- ‘take, seize,’ etc. (P:316-318; MA:35)], i.e. *h1neḱto- ‘he who brings, he who obtains.’ He notes the semantic similarity (which stops well short of a semantic identity) with Sanskrit bhága- ‘master,’ Avestan baɣa- ‘master, god,’ derivatives of a verb seen in Skt, bhájati ‘shares.’ Alternatively Watkins (1974:102) takes ‘god’ to be ‘the libated one’ (from PIE *ǵheu- ‘pour’ [P:447-448; MA:448]) with reference to Sanskrit āhuta- ‘begossen’ as an epithet of Agni. Normier (1980:267ff.), however, is probably right in taking PTch *ñäk(ä)te to reflect a virtual PIE *ní-ǵhuhx-to- ‘± the one called down’ (more particularly *ní-ǵhuhx-to- with the retracted accent characteristic of nouns derived from adjectives). The vowel of the root syllable has been shortened to *-u- (or the laryngeal was lost) in pre-Tocharian but after that the development is phonologically regular..."

Personally I prefer the first option. I. Mosenkis has connected Toch. nakt- 'god' (used also for kings) with Linear B (w)anakt- (which thinks it's Hattic in origin).

https://www.academia.edu/28572995/Origin_and_structure_of_Minoan-Mycenaean_power_evidence_of_titles

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Concerning the writing PATESI for Sum. ensi, there is an interesting etymology of IE *potis "lord, husband" (according to Giacomo *patis) at Wikipedia:

"Derksen: it's often assumed that the meaning "lord, husband" derived from an even older meaning "self", as found in Lithuanian pàts (“self”)."

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/p%C3%B3tis

I think thus that not only niĝ "possesion", but also Sum. nin, wr. nin; ga-ša-an; ga-ša2-an; ka-ša-an "lady; mistress, owner; lord" (Akk. bēltu; bēlu) could be derived from a (reduplicated?) ni, wr. ni2 = 'self' (Halloran says this is from a reduplicated ni = 'fear').

An interesting thing is that the ša2 sign of the Emesal "ga-ša2-an" (= nin) is the same with niĝ "thing, possesion" (and ĝar); now, according to I. Mosenkis, gašan or kašan "lady, lord" is derived from an Iranian xšain = 'queen'.

This must be derived from *tk(')ēy- "to possess, to acquire" > Old Indian kṣáyati `to possess, rule over'; kṣatrá- n. `dominion, power, might' etc. A kind of 'kSan' Skt. root.

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=1605&root=config

We were talking about this IE root at Giacomo's posts, when we discussed about Sum. tuku = "to acquire, get", when I said it reminds this *tk(')ēy-.

So, I assume that we have also in Sumerian traces of a (kind of) "thorn clusters", as they were described in Kloekhorst's paper: TK > in tuku; KSH > in gašan, even the labialized PT > in PATESI.

Maybe this was a trait existing already in IE dialects, before the separation of the several branches; or maybe its origin is even pre-IE.

Another question if these TK clusters have some relationship to some possible NK / LP (let's say) ones (like in niĝ "possesion" / lib "rich", or niĝir/ libir 'herald').

Kyriakos Samelis said...

btw, since we're talking about *tk(')ēy- "to possess, to acquire", the main Gr. reflex is κτάομαι ktáomai̯ 'procure for oneself, get, acquire':

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=kta%2Fomai&la=greek&can=kta%2Fomai0

also, κτέαρ ktéar 'possessions, property':

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=kte%2Far&la=greek&can=kte%2Far0

Also (most probably) κτέρας kteras "possession", κτέρεα kterea (pl.) '(funeral) gifts'

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=kte%2Fras&la=greek&can=kte%2Fras0&prior=kte/rea&d=Perseus:text:1999.04.0058:entry=kte/rea&i=1

ktear and kteras reminds, in my opinion, of this Sum. word:

kadra [GIFT] (44x: Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. kadra, Akk. irbu "income; entry fee? to temple"; kadrû "present, greeting gift"; ţātu "bribe, baksheesh".

So, there is a possibility (also) of a (reversed) greek style KT form of this 'thorn cluster' about possession.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Another example of such a 'TK' cluster in Sumerian I think is dehi [SUPPORT] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. de-hi; dehi "support, stanchion; tax" Akk. imdu, which we have compared to the IE root *dʰeyǵʰ '-to knead, to form, to shape' and especially some cognates, meaning 'wall' or such things.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/d%CA%B0ey%C7%B5%CA%B0-

Like Sk. deha 'body, mass, bulk, person, appearance' etc and dehi 'surrounding wall, mound, rampart'

http://www.spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=deha&direction=SE&script=HK&link=yes&beginning=

http://www.spokensanskrit.de/index.php?beginning=0+&tinput=+dehi&trans=Translate&direction=SE

also Avestan daēza 'wall', Greek τεῖχος teîkhos 'mound, earth works, wall (especially one enclosing a town or city), fortified city, fortification, castle'.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CE%B5%E1%BF%96%CF%87%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek

Here Sanskrit has the TK form. But I have the impression that there is also a 'KS type' Sum. word of this same root, this one:

kisa [PLATFORM] (54x: Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. ki-sa2; kissa "platform; supporting wall, abutment", also 'plinth', Akk. kisû "footing, plinth".
I still think this word is connected to Latin castrum.

For the KT form I think there is a word in Akkadian: kādu 'fortified outpost; (according to CAD), also its guards; 'fort' according to Porpola.

http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=9826&language=id

Finally, I think that, for the PT form of this cluster, we have this well known Sum. word:

bad [WALL] (2910x: ED IIIb, Ebla, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. bad3 "wall, fortification" Akk. dūru

which, I think, among all the IE languages, exists only in Armenian (as pat/bad).

Kyriakos Samelis said...

The PT forms, of course, are due to a kind of labialization.

BTW, I am thinking now of a kind of labialization in case of Sum. banda = 'child, son', maybe connected to this IE root (given by Bomhard in the glottalic form), which Nirjhar has already posted twice, I think:

Proto-Indo-European *kan *k’en-/*k’on-/*k’n̥- ‘to beget, to produce, to create,
to bring forth'

Sum. banda looks indeed like these Dravidian words compared by Bomhard - if labialized:

Kannaḍa kanda ‘young child’, kandu ‘calf' Telugu kandu‘, infant’, kanduvu ‘child’.

The labialization of "k'an" maybe has happened as a part of a de-palatalization process (I get this idea from a paper Nirjhar sent to me). The final -da could be a suffix.

On the other hand, another root which could be connected with banda, that is Semitic bin 'son' looks isoleted inside Afro-Asiatic. Could be also connected, due a similar labialization, to this same root "k'an"?

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fafaset&text_number=+++9&root=config

Nirjhar007 said...

On the other hand, another root which could be connected with banda, that is Semitic bin 'son' looks isoleted inside Afro-Asiatic. Could be also connected, due a similar labialization, to this same root "k'an"?.

Yes Kyriakos , I don't see why this can't be. I agree.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Starling's etymology of kandu etc is a bit different: to Eurasiatic *ḲanV 'young, new' and the IE root *kan/*ken "young, new".

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fdrav%2fdravet&text_number=+502&root=config

but the root meaning "beget", Eurasiatic: *kVnV, meaning 'to bear, kin' is very close:

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=+316&root=config

So, maybe these two roots are connected, too.

Also, the Dravidian root as "*kanr" leads also, I think, to Aramaic b'rā 'son, child' (bar) Hebrew bará 'to create'.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%90#Aramaic

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/1247.htm

An AA root close to'bin 'son' could be also this one:

Proto-Semitic: *bVn-
Afroasiatic etymology: Afroasiatic etymology
Meaning: 'build' 1, 'create' 2
Akkadian: banû 1, 2
Amorite: bny 1, MOAB bny 1
Ugaritic: bny, bnw 1
Phoenician: bny, PUN bnʔ, bny 1
Hebrew: bny 1
Aramaic: bny 1 OAram bny, Aram (Emp, Nab) bnh, bnʔ, (Palm) bnʔ 1
Mandaic Aramaic: bna 1
Arabic: bny [-i-] 1, 2
Epigraphic South Arabian: bny 1
Mehri: benû 1
Jibbali: bené 1
Soqotri: béne 1
Notes: Various triliteral formations based on *bVn-.

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=+634&root=config


Kyriakos Samelis said...

I remember also, Nirjhar, the set of AA cognates of Bomhard's Proto-Nostratic root *k’an- (vb.) ‘to get, to acquire, to create, to produce, to beget’ (n.) *k’an-a ‘birth, offspring, child, young, produce’; (adj.) ‘born, begotten, produced’, that you've posted on Giacomo's New Indology (at November 2nd, 2016):

A. Proto-Afrasian *k’an- ‘to get, to acquire, to possess, to create, to produce’:
Proto-Semitic *k’an-aw/y- ‘to get, to acquire, to possess, to create, to
produce’ > Hebrew ḳānāh [hn*q*] ‘to get, to acquire, to create, to produce’;
Phoenician ḳny ‘to acquire’; Biblical Aramaic ḳǝnā ‘to acquire, to buy’;
Ugaritic ḳny ‘to create’; Akkadian ḳanū ‘to gain, to acquire’; Amorite ḳny
‘to create, to acquire’ (basic stem, Qal yaḳnī); Arabic ḳanā ‘to get, to
acquire, to create’; Sabaean ḳny ‘to possess, to acquire’; Geez / Ethiopic
ḳanaya [ቀነየ] ‘to acquire, to buy, to subjugate, to dominate, to rule, to
subdue, to tame, to train, to make serve, to make toil, to reduce to
servitude, to bring into bondage, to force to work, to create’. Murtonen
1989:380; Klein 1987:584; Leslau 1987:437; Zammit 2002:347. Egyptian
qn, qnÕ ‘to be strong, to make strong, to have power over, to possess, to
overcome’. Hannig 1995:858; Faulkner 1962:279; Gardiner 1957:596;
Erman—Grapow 1921:190 and 1926—1963.5:41—43. Berber: Tuareg
ǝ¦nu ‘to be created, to be started; to originate (from)’. Diakonoff
1992:23—24 *ḳn̥ (*ḳny/w) ‘begetting, giving birth’.

These are the 'non labialized forms', let's say, in AA. But these KN, let's say words, reminded me also a TKN (let's say) word, Gr. τέκνον teknon 'child' (also Skt. toka etc). Root teḱ, which leads perhaps to τέκτων tekton 'craftsman, creator', but also to *tḱey- 'to settle, to live':

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CE%AD%CE%BA%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%BD

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/te%E1%B8%B1-

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CE%AD%CF%87%CE%BD%CE%B7

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CE%AD%CE%BA%CF%84%CF%89%CE%BD#Ancient_Greek

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/t%E1%B8%B1ey-

This last one leads again to the similar (previous mentioned) root *tḱēy- "to possess, to acquire" of Skt. kṣáyati `to possess, rule over', also (as I think) Sumerian tuku etc.

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=1605&root=config

All these similar roots I think are summarized in the TKN root of 'earth', which possess and creates / begets everything. As I've said to you, Gr. teknon reminds me Hittite tēkan for 'earth'.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%F0%92%8B%BC%F0%92%82%8A%F0%92%83%B7

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Perhaps we have a *teḱ- root in Sum. tešlug [HATCHLING] wr. tešlug "hatchling" Akk. atmu (Akkadian atmu means: '1) hatchling , young of a bird / snake / turtle , chick, chicken , fledgling ; 2) (by extension) human offspring , young child , toddler ')

http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=6514&language=id

(lug I think means "to live, dwell (of animals), pasture", so maybe teš- could be from *teḱ-).

If all these roots above are connected, maybe that explains also the vocalization of Sum. tuku 'acquire'; tuku reminds also of τόκος tokos 'interest' from tokos τόκος 'birth' in Greek (τοκεύς tokeus also is the parent), vocalization like Skt. toka < *teḱ.


Kyriakos Samelis said...

Nirjhar,
About *dʰeyǵʰ again ;to form, to mould, clay etc': Giacomo's view is that it is connected with the root of earth (and I strongly agrees with that); I was also thinking it is connected with the root *teḱ-'to beget', if you remember; you've posted Bomhard's glottalic version of this root on New Indology (at November 9th 2016): Proto-Nostratic root *diqº- (~ *deqº-): (vb.) *diqº- ‘to crush, to pound or tamp (earth), to mold or knead (clay)’; (n.) *diqº-a ‘earth, clay, mud’, and there were some Dravidian roots there: Konḍa tig- ‘to press down hard, to lay pressure on’; Pengo tig- (tikt-) ‘to push’; Manḍa tig- ‘to push’.

http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.1:1:618.burrow

That Konḍa 'tikt-' reminded me Gr. τίκτω *tíktō 'to beget, to give birth':
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CE%AF%CE%BA%CF%84%CF%89#Ancient_Greek

But another (or the same?) tikt- means aparrently 'to die':
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.1:1:820.burrow

I think it is natural: we are formed from clay and we are deformed as clay. We are born with a push and we are pushed to death. That is life.

btw, Starling gives another Euroasiatic common root (yet not including IE).
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=1907&root=config

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Another curious idea that I have about these 'diq, tek', let's say 'TK' words for 'pressuring the earth', is that, using the 'thorn cluster' pattern, and searching about a labialized 'PT' version, we could imagine a word like Sum. bad, 'hard ground', which also reminds Gr. πέδον pedon whith the same meaning:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%AD%CE%B4%CE%BF%CE%BD
maybe even the IE root for 'foot' could be connected here, in a very archaic IE stage, or maybe a pre-IE one... btw, another root *pid means 'to give birth':
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/fetan%C4%85

Something else, all these metatheseis in 'thorn clusters' of the Greek roots from the IE 'TK' to 'KT' and to 'PT' are a bit annoying... At least in this early stage of the IE I'm in favour of Speirs' view about the labiovelars; permit me to put Dziebel's article
from Kinship Studiesalso here, for convenience. Maybe initially there was a kind of 'KK' reduplicated pattern, beyond all these roots...

http://kinshipstudies.org/2014/07/23/indo-european-labiovelars-a-new-look/

Nirjhar007 said...

Yes many will not agree but as you say 'KK' reduplicated pattern can be the original and archaic form . I like the ideas of Dziebel, he thinks practically by putting data first , I consider its the attitude we all need !.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

On this, there is a Sumerian word kukku [LAND] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. kukku3(|KI.KI|) "land", written as a reduplicated ki 'earth' (sign 'ki' is the same with gu14); maybe this "ku" came from kʷ (Speirs instead of *dheg'h-m– gives the IE word of 'earth' as *gʷhegʷh).

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Another Sum. KK word, which is given by J. Halloran (under question), is the following one:
KU-KU: ancestors (?) ('to found; to lie down').

That reminds me a Gr. word (given also by Hesychius), κοκύαι kokyai 'ancestors' (der. uncertain), Chantrain says: 'origin obscure'.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dkoku%2Fai

Halloran has also ugu4[KU]: to bear, procreate, produce (cf., ugu4-bi).
That reminds also Gr. κυέω kyeō / κύω kyō 'to bear in the womb, to be pregnant with a child'. I think we have talked about that already in Giacomo's Sumerian posts.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dkue%2Fw

In Halloran also, ku: to base, found, build; to lie down (reduplication class) [KU archaic frequency: 64; concatenates 3 sign variants].
ePSD: ku [PLACE] (96x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. ku "to place, lay (down), lay eggs; to spread, discharge" Akk. nadû; uşşu

Note here that Dziebel's view about the root of "father" (pitar, pater, πατήρ etc), another PT word as I think, is just *kʷe. I am copying here from his article given above:

"kwe- ‘father, father’s brother; older male relative’: IE *pH2ter ‘father’ (Toch A paacar, Toch B paacer, Skrt pita, Gk pateer, Lat pater, Arm hayr, Goth fadar, OIr athir) ~ IE *te– ‘father’ (Lith tevas, tetis ‘father’, OPruss taaws, towis ‘father’, thewis ‘father’s brother’, Skrt tata ‘father’ (r.), ‘any male relative or acquaintance’ (a.) ...' As he also says 'It’s likely that Hitt atta, Slav *otici, Goth atta ‘father’ are also derived from *akwa-, and hence there was only one PIE term for ‘father’ (*kwe-, *akwe-) and not two (*pH2ter and *atta) as presently believed. Interestingly, in Gothic, the form fadar occurs only once, with atta being the main term for ‘father’. If the two forms are linked phonetically, the puzzle of why a PIE term for ‘father’ fell out of favor in Gothic simply disappears.' Also 'Unlike *pHter and *te-, which are isolated in a Eurasian perspective, PIE *kwe-, *akwe ‘father’ find plenty of potential cognates in the so-called “Nostratic” or “Eurasiatic” languages (comp. Nostr eka ‘older male relative’ such as ‘father’, ‘father’s brother’, ‘older brother’, ‘grandfather’, etc.)."

Starostin gives also long-range etymologies for the root of the father, but only with labials:

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2feura%2fglobet&text_number=+246&root=config

But I think a K (Kw) or KK (KwKw?) root could unite also other some other types and thus give bigger perspectives like KK > ()VK,()VT, PP, ()VP, PT or TT, and of course a connection to the TK roots above.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

About Sum. 'ku' < 'kwe', we can recall here Whittaker's comparison for Sum. tukum 'if' (From 'The Case for Euphratic'). He states:

"tukum ‘immediately, in a moment; as soon as; if’: *to-kom, lit. ‘with that’ (cf. Hitt. takkan‘(?),’ takku ‘if,when’ < *to-kom, *to-kwe; Kloekhorst 2008: 432-433,816). Such constructions occur widely in Indo-European(see esp. Wagner 1967; Eichner 1971). In English there is a parallel construction: with that ‘thereupon; (obs.:) provided that, if.’"

Though I have the impression that IE *kom and *kwe- are two different roots (yet, there is Latin quum (quom) > cum), the comparison of *to-kwe to Sum. tukum clearly shows a -kwe (-kwam?) > Sum. ku(m).

BTW, *to-kwe in Greek is τότε tote (Kloekhorst mentions also this at this Hittite dictionary) "at that time, when" (he has the meaning also 'as a result'). From τε < -kwe (In Doric is τόκα toka < to-kwe).

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CF%8C%CF%84%CE%B5

Otto Edzard, in his 'Sumerian Grammar' states that "tukumbi “if ” is newer than Old Sum. 'uda'. And I think in Giacomo's post I have compared 'uda' to Gr. ὅτε hote "when".

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%85%CF%84%CE%B5#Ancient_Greek

So, it is possible that in Sumerian there are many versions of the same root, as in Greek and other languages; we han have -da-" < kwa-, and ku- < kwu-, for example.

Kyriakos Samelis said...


I had suddenly this idea about Gr. ξύν "xyn" (ksyn) "plus, and", which became later in Greek just σύν "syn"; we have talked about it in Giacomo's first Sumerian post, Nirjhar, if you remember; Giacomo had mentioned the views of Dunkel about it, and then proposed a procedure k'om > k'on >k'un > xyn (inspired by Villar, as he said); the idea is that it could be derived from a TK "thorn cluster", like from a contracted "to-k'om" (from tk'on < tk'om < *to-k'om, "whith it"), but following a Sankrit-style development of these clusters from TK to KSh, sice in normal 'Greek-style it should be "ktyn").

I think that a "thorn cluster" could make things simpler. In any case, I think we have an Indic influence here (as you know, I think that this influence is to be found also in some other cases in Greek). Then, *som could have influenced ksyn, and this newer type σύν "syn" was created. It is the opposite of Dunkel's view, that Giacomo had mentioned, too.

This conservation was at September 2015 and you have also raised the question, if the ancient IE had a perticular "palatal" sound which evolved in kentum and satam; I think I agree now (if that matters :D).

Nirjhar007 said...

okay :) .

Kyriakos Samelis said...

An intersting thing is that there are not visible Indic reflexes of this root *ḱóm:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/%E1%B8%B1%C3%B3m

But maybe kshana "in a moment, instantly, instant etc" etc is derived from a thorn-cluster.

http://www.spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=kSaNa&direction=SE&script=HK&link=yes&beginning=

Maybe from a *tk'an <ta-k'an? (from ta-k'am?)

Kyriakos Samelis said...

I mean they aren't in Sanskrit, although there are in other Satam languages. There is also the possibility of *sem / *som/ *sam being just a satam form of *k'om, or rather both derived from a palatal sounded root, as you have implied.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Maybe the Sum. word unkin or ukkin "assembly" is (at least partly) related to this root *ḱóm ( > -kin).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukkin

According to ePSD: unkin [ASSEMBLY] (69x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Lagash II, Old Babylonian) wr. unkin; LAK649 "assembly" Akk. puhru. Foxvog: ukkin, ukken, unken assembly (for an etymology see Selz, AV Römer 316f.) Halloran: unkin, ukkin: communal assembly, folkmoot (ùĝa/un, 'people', + kíĝ/kin, 'to seek, fetch'; cf., unkin-ĝar-ra) [UKKIN archaic frequency: 108; concatenates 3 sign variants].

There is in Gr. word Κοινόν Koinon ("common"), which is referred also to some forms of government, meaning "leage", "federation" etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koinon

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Nirjhar, what do you think about this?

Sum. urin [GUARD] (32x: ED IIIb, Ur III, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian) wr. urin "to guard" Akk. naşāru "to guard, protect".

looks like *wrana* / *rwana / Urwana of Giacomo's new post, Varuṇa as guardian etc.

Here is also Gr. οὖρος ouros 'guardian':
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dou)%3Dros2

Nirjhar007 said...

Yes I was looking for it a few days back but couldn't remember ! . You should point it to him , it looks an excellent suggestion :) .

Kyriakos Samelis said...

I'm not entirely sure, because there is also a Hittite word "auri" (au-ri) = watch(tower), with a different IE etymology; the Hit. verb is au(s)- < au-/u- < *A₂ew-/A₂u-; cognates are Skt. ávati = observe, notice‘ and āvís, Av. āviš, OCS javě = openly, clearly‘, Gk. ἀΐω = perceive‘, OCS umŭ = intelligence‘, according to the Hittite Vocabulary.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

There is also another Sum. urun [PACIFICATION] (11x: ED IIIb, Ur III) wr. urunx(EN); u18-ru "pacification (of waves)" Akk. tanīhu ša agî.
That seems closer in form to urwana, the pacts or agreements between the gods etc (maybe also to aruna "the sea" etc). But the meaning "pacification" reminded me another Gr. word, which like ouranos has also no clear etymology and sometimes is thought to be a loanword: εἰρήνη eirene "peace". She is also a godess.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dei)rh%2Fnh

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B5%E1%BC%B0%CF%81%CE%AE%CE%BD%CE%B7#Ancient_Greek

It has also other forms like irana etc. Hesuchius has also a strange type wit "u" : hyna / huna (given in Accusative: ὕναν: τὴν εἰρήνην hunan: ten eirenen).

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*u%3Aentry+group%3D13%3Aentry%3Du%28%2Fnan

Nirjhar007 said...

Yes it is fabulous, I believe a common root for covering,guarding,watching with applications to sea and sky , which is obvious is in play here. And as we have seen the affinity with Sumerian, finding such related looking reflexes is nothing weird :) . Just that they are sometimes written differently :) .

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Yes :) there are also some Sumerian words which look like urin in form and meaning, having though an intial "g-": for example gurum "to bend, curve, wrap around; to bow; to roll up; to curb, restrain; to watch over", also gurum "inspection, provisions". I have thus a suspicion that behind the *wer root must be again a **gwer / **gwar one.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Maybe something like this root *ḳVwal- in AA:

Meaning: look, see
Semitic: *mVḳul- 'look' (<*mV-ḳul-?)
Berber: *ḳVl- 'look' (?)
East Chadic: *kal- 'see'
Central Cushitic (Agaw): *ḳwal- 'look, see'
Low East Cushitic: *ḳolal- 'see'

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fafaset&text_number=+903&root=config

The other gurum means "dwelling" and you found the AA root *k’w¦ar- (comparable with nagara), And *k'war is close to IE *kwal / *kwel.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Another Nostr. root I could think of for Sum. gurum (as 'watch over') is this one:

Eurasiatic: *gUrV
Meaning: to understand, see
Borean: Borean
Indo-European: *gʷhren- (+ *gʷhrē- 1772)
Altaic: *gŏ̀re
Kartvelian: *gar-
Dravidian: *gur_- (*-d_-)
Eskimo-Aleut: *irǝ
References: ND 660 *g[ü]ʕrV 'to look, look for' (Kartv.+differ.IE+Alt.+Drav.), 674a *goR[X]E 'to track, smell, hear' (IE +SH).

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=+680&root=config

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Also, according to Bomhard Sumerian gur ‘to bend (tr.)’, gur ‘to wind up, to roll up, to turn, to twist’, gur ‘basket’, gúr ‘ring, circle’, gúr ‘to bend, to bow (intr.)’, gurú ‘to wriggle, to writhe’, gurum ‘to bend, to bow (intr.); to bend (tr.)’ belong to Proto-Nostratic root *gwar- (~ *gwǝr-): (vb.) *gwar- ‘to turn, to twist, to wind, to wrap, to roll’; (n.) *gwar-a ‘any round or circular object’; (adj.) ‘rolling, round, bent, twisted, turned’. No IE root here; but in my opinion this root could be related to the IE *kwal/ *kwar for turning etc.

Nirjhar007 said...

It must be related to the IE root *kwal/ *kwar .

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Except from *wer, we have also *wel 'to see'. From Starling:

Proto-IE: *wel-
Nostratic etymology: Nostratic etymology
Meaning: to see
Tokharian: B yel- 'investigate' (Adams 507)
Germanic: *wlī́-t-a- vb.; *wli-t-u- c., n.; *wlai-t-ō f., *wlai-t-ia- n.
Latin: voltus / vultus, -ūs m. `Gesichtsausdruck, Miene, Aussehen, Gestalt'
Celtic: OIr fil `es gibt' ( = voici ); filis i.seallais `vidit', Cymr gweled `sehen', Bret guelet `la vue', OIr fili, gen. filed `Seher, Dichter'
Russ. meaning: видеть
References: WP I 293 f

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=1451&root=config

So, I think that we have another group of *wel/*wer and *kwel/*kwer roots, meaning this time "to see"; we have discussed about several *kwel/*kwer - *wel/*wer roots meaning almost the same things at Giacomo's last post.

BTW, another Gr. word βλέπω blepō 'to see, look, perceive' must included an initial labio velar (< *gwlep- ; there is also a form γλέπω glepō). It is contested if it's an inherited or a substratum word. Check the etymology from here:

http://translate.academic.ru/%CE%B2%CE%BB%CE%AD%CF%80%CF%89/el/en/

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Note also, Nirjhar, that in ὁράω horaō ('to see') the root is (as we have said) *wer:
8. u̯er- 'to notice, observe, attend, be aware' https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/2169

Yet, according to Chantraine, horaō has some forms not only in *wor-, but also in *sor or maybe *swor-. The only IE root with an initial s- and a similar meaning is this one:
2. ser- 'to serve, guard, protect, shelter' (Pokorny's root); the most known word here is Lat. 'servo'.

https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1700
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/servo

Gr. έρυμαι erymai / erumai 'to protect', that Giacomo has mentioned in his post, comes most probably from the *wer root; yet there is also an etymology from the *ser root (eru- < *servu-), as it is mentioned by Chantraine.

So, I wonder about some possible connection between *k'wer / *wer and *wer / *ser; this last one could be as from *k'wer > **swer > *ser.

Maybe a similar process connects also 1. *ser- 'to flow, stream' and *kwel / kwer (or *kwal / *kwar) 'turn, move' etc.

https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1699
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1092

So, an hypothesis is that carati / calati and sarati could be also connected ultimately. That perhaps is due to the 'archaic palatal sound', as you have proposed, and a de-palatalization process, which maybe had as a result some new roots with labiovelar, palatovelar and sibilant initial sounds.


Kyriakos Samelis said...

Note also that this could be also beyond the limits of the IE: for example, in Sumerian there is a word kar [FLEE] (158x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. kar "to flee; to take away (by force), remove; to deprive; to save" Akk. ekēmu; eţēru; mašā'u; nērubu.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

I think that an insteresting Nostratic root comparable to Sum. kar 'flee' could be the following one (from Bomhard):

"693. Proto-Nostratic root *her- and/or *hor-: (vb.) *her- and/or *hor- ‘to escape, to flee, to run away’; (n.) *her-a and/or *hor-a ‘escape, flight’; (adj.) ‘escaped, liberated, freed’

A. Proto-Afrasian *her-, *hor- ‘to escape, to flee, to run away’: Proto-Semitic *har-ab- ‘to escape, to flee, to run away’ > Akkadian arbu ‘fugitive, runaway’; Arabic haraba ‘to flee, to escape, to desert, to run away, to elope; to help to escape, to force to flee, to put to flight; to liberate, to free (a prisoner); to smuggle’, harab ‘flight, escape, getaway; desertion; elopement’, hurūb ‘flight’, harbān ‘fugitive, runaway, on the run; a runaway, a fugitive, a refugee’, hārib ‘fugitive, runaway, on the run; a runaway, a fugitive, a refugee; deserter’; Sabaean hrb ‘to flee’; Ḥarsūsi herōb ‘to put to flight, to smuggle’; Śḥeri / Jibbāli ohúrb ‘to smuggle, to run away (from prison)’; Mehri hōrəb ‘to smuggle, to put to flight’; Tigre harbä ‘to flee’. D. Cohen 1970— :447; Zammit 2002:417. Ehret 1995: 385, no. 789, *her-/*hor- ‘to go rapidly on foot’; Ehret also posits ProtoCushitic *horr-/*herr- ‘to go on foot’ (Proto-East Cushitic ‘to run away’), but he does not give examples.

B. Proto-Indo-European *her- [*har-]/*hor-/*hr̥ - ‘(vb.) to liberate, to set free; (adj.) free’: Hittite a-ra-a-u-(wa-)aš ‘free’, (1st sg. pres.) a-ra-wa-aḫ-ḫi ‘to set free’; Lycian arawa ‘free’, arawã ‘exempt from tax’, ʼΕρεύαϛ /*erewa-/ ‘free(city)’. Tischler 1977— :53—55; Puhvel 1984— .1/2:119—121. Puhvel’s rejection notwithstanding, the most convincing Indo-European cognate remains Lithuanian árvas ‘free’ (cf. Gamkrelidze—Ivanov 1995.I: 397—398 *arw- and I:781 *arwo- ‘free agriculturalist’). Fraenkel 1962— 1965.I:16.

C. Proto-Eskimo *aʀullaʀ- ‘to leave’: Alutiiq Alaskan Yupik aʀulaXtə- ‘to run away’; Naukan Siberian Yupik aʀulaXquq ‘gathered greens’; Central Siberian Yupik aʀulaqə- ‘to leave’, aʀulaXquʀ- ‘to go and gather greens’; Sirenik aʀəlaʀ- ‘to leave’, aʀəlaʀət(ə)- ‘to take away’; Seward Peninsula Inuit aulaʀi- ‘to leave’; North Alaskan Inuit aullaq- ‘to leave’; Western Canadian Inuit aullaq- ‘to leave’; Eastern Canadian Inuit aulla(q)- ‘to leave’; Greenlandic Inuit aaVVaʀ- ‘to leave’. Fortescue—Jacobson— Kaplan 1994:45.

Buck 1949:10.51 flee; 11.34 release; 19.44 free (adj.). Bomhard—Kerns 1994:585, no. 455. "

Hittite arawa and Lycian arawa / erewa 'freedman' (meaning ex-slave) is discussed in Giacomo's post about the Semitic cognates of the term 'Aryan'.

Bomhard has separated now this root from Proto-Nostratic root *ħar- (~ *ħər-): (vb.) *ħar- ‘to be superior, to be higher in status or rank, to be above or over’; (n.) *ħar-a ‘nobleman, master, chief, superior’; (adj.) ‘free-born, noble’ ( with Proto-Afrasian *ħar- ‘(vb.) to be superior, to be higher in status or rank, to be above or over. and of course Proto-Indo-European *¸er-yo- [*¸ar-yo-] ‘a superior, a person higher in status or rank’: Sanskrit ā́rya-ḥ ‘a respectable or honorable person, a highly-esteemed person; master, owner’, árya-ḥ ‘master, lord’; Pāḷi ariya- ‘noble, distinguished, of high birth’; Old Persian ariya- (perhaps āriya-) ‘Aryan’ (Farsi ērān ‘Iran’); Avestan airya- ‘noble’...).

Kyriakos Samelis said...

BTW two Greek words that crossed my mind, as perhaps comparable to the proto-Semitic har-ab etc, are Gr. καρπάλιμος karpalimos and κραιπνός kraipnos 'swift'.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dkarpa%2Flimos

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Akkadian arbu means 'a fugitive, a runaway' (according to CAD also 'person without family'); arbūtu means: 1) (for army, person) flight, rout (arbūtu šūluku = to take flight, to flee) 2) the status of a fugitive. The Sum. equivalent is 'kar'. (CAD says: arbūtu : flight, rout. devestation, ruin). The assumption is that ultimately both kar and ar-bu are connected:

http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=arb%C5%ABtu+%282%29&language=rawakkadian

There is a also a Sum. word sar = 'run'. It looks as a satamized kar (k'ar > sar). Perhaps compared to *ser- 'to flow, stream'.
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e4806.html

Something else: Sum 'karkid' means also 'prostitute':
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/e2856.html

See also here, this interesting post:
http://www.telecomtally.com/familyless-woman-of-the-harem-prostitute-or-perhaps-a-suzubu/

I have the impression that the meaning of 'fugitive, saved, familyless, flight' are connected both with the notions of "free" and "sheltered / protected". Devestated, fleeing, but protected, "free".

Nirjhar007 said...

Of course I agree . The pattern you suggest make sense . It is also interesting, that as an opposite meaning ,there maybe a root *kar 'to incarcerate , capture' http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=incarceration&allowed_in_frame=0

Compare also Sanskrit : kArA 'Prison,confinement etc'
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=kArA&direction=SE&script=HK&link=yes&beginning=

If we follow this opinion, we may find a relation to *kwar 'turn,bend,roll'.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/carcer#Latin
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Italic/karkros

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Yes, exactly! We are thinking in the same way; this is a root that I was also thinking of, it exists also in Greek, there are words as karkaron κάρκαρον 'prison' (neut.); in plural (κάρκαρα, karkara) means 'fenced place, closed space' (μάνδραι mandrai); also the same word (but in masc.) κάρκαρος karkaros means 'bond'.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dka%2Frkaron

It must be related both to a meaning of 'circle' and 'guard'. Also to 'tie, bond'. Here I think there is some "tie" :) also to the following root of Pokorny (as a satemized variation perhaps):

4. ser- 'to insert, line up, put/bind together'

So even this *ser root could be connected too. I think it's just that we have to be used in satam like forms in Kentum and kentum forms in satam languages. A sort of re-interpratation of matters.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Let's see about this a bit. We have 4. ser- 'to insert, line up, put/bind together'; Pokorny's root, from here:

https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1702

In Greek there is a word ὅρμος hormos n.masc 'chain, necklace'; like Skrt. sará-ḥ n 'cord, string', sarat n 'thread'.
Well, guess what, the same word ὅρμος hormos means also 'a roadstead, anchorage, moorings', also 'metaph. a haven, place of shelter or refuge'. The sages don't know exactly to which *ser root this word belongs.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Do(%2Frmos

The meaning of hormos as 'anchorage, moorings, haven, place of shelter or refuge' reminds me also Sum. kar "harbor, quay" Akk. kāru; a word that we discussed about (with many cognates in Bomhard, including some Dravidian ones), if I remember well' the IE root was *kert:

https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0948

Is it possible a 'satem like' root even for this (Greek normally has hor- < sor). Or is it something else? Anyway, in this word for 'bank, harbor' we have also the notion of 'circle, shelter'.


Nirjhar007 said...

I think also for example Sanskrit has sáras 'pond'lake' from where the Vedic River Sarasvati got her name (The one with pools/ponds) , I also find a relation with a possible root *kwar not impossible , although traditional root is with an l instead of r, (but l and r are liquid) :

Sarasvatī is the devi feminine of an adjective sarasvant- (which occurs in the Rigveda[12] as the name of the keeper of the celestial waters), derived from Proto-Indo-Iranian *sáras-vat-ī (and earlier, PIE *séles-u̯n̥t-ih₂), meaning ‘marshy, full of pools’, or ‘she with many lakes’. The other term -vatī is the Sanskrit grammatical feminine possessor suffix.

Sanskrit sáras means ‘pool, pond or lake’; the feminine sarasī́ means ‘stagnant pool, swamp’.[13] Like its cognates Welsh hêl, heledd ‘river meadow’ and Greek ἕλος (hélos) ‘swamp’, the Rigvedic term refers mostly to stagnant waters, and Mayrhofer considers unlikely a connection with the root *sar- ‘run, flow’.[14]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarasvati_River#Etymology

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Also, about the opposite meanings, we have in Greek these two simialr verbs:

ὁρμάω hormao = 'set in motion, urge on' and ὁρμέω hormeo 'to be moored, lie at anchor'

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=o%28rme%2Fw&la=greek&can=o%28rme%2Fw0&d=Perseus:text:1999.04.0058:alphabetic%20letter=*o:entry%20group=21:entry=o(rme/w&i=1

The first verb ὁρμάω hormao is connected today with ὄρνυμι ornymi 'to stir' (since its connection to sarati etc is now rejected):

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%84%CF%81%CE%BD%CF%85%CE%BC%CE%B9

a verb we where talking about, among other things, at Giacomo's post about the Semitic roots of the name Aryan, here:

http://new-indology.blogspot.gr/2017/01/the-term-aryan-and-its-semitic-cognates.html

Of course the 'problem' with hormao is its initial h- (which implies an older initial s-). That's why I wonder if there is, beyond all these roots, a sound which resulted in some occasions as a pharyngeal consonant, in others perhaps as > kw/ k' > sw/ s.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

About Sarasvati, maybe, if we consider also that *kwel has given also in Greek the word τέλος telos (*teles < *k'weles), 'to end, to stop'; maybe *seles could be reelated also to this (perhaps from some older'palatal' sound?)

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Another important root of Pokorny, which I think could be also connected, is this one:

2. k̑ers- 'to run, course' (with an important Celtic word 'carrus' for chariot, wagon).

https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0947

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/%E1%B8%B1ers-

Hesychios has also an illyrian (I think) word σάρσαι 'sarsai' (plur.) meaning 'wagons'. Greek has a word ἐπίκουρος epikouros (also the name of Epikouros, the philosopher) 'helper, support' ('the one that rushes for help' > epi-kouros).

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Hmm, there is also this one in Sanskrit and Greek: Pokorny Etymon: gu̯hðer- 'to flow, run'; including some ominous meanings about destruction and perish:

https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0743

http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=kSarati&direction=SE&script=HK&link=yes&beginning=

A 'thorn cluster' (we have talked about these in Giacomo's Sumerian posts). Let's say (in modern sense) it's a TKR root, giving KSR in Sanskrit and PTR (or PSR) in Greek).

But, then, all these previous roots (sometimes reduplicated) about running etc that we have encountered seem to include these same consonants, as if derived from a 'thorn cluster': KR, SR, KRT, KRS, even a TRK exist among these roots (*dhreg 'to run'): https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0424
I would dare to add a PR(T) of the *per root (part, depart) of separation etc.

Maybe I'm wrong in this; yet, as I said before, I have the impression that 'thorn-cluster-like' derivation of roots must be a very ancient trait.


Nirjhar007 said...

About Sarasvati my impression was of confined water yes .

Kyriakos Samelis said...

That made me think that *kwel could fit also to another Gr. word, τέλμα telma 'standing water, a pool, pond, marsh, swamp, low land subject to inundation, water-meads'.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dte%2Flma

I thought also again about the tilmun / telmun / dilmun of the Sumerians (maybe from **tel-mn̥, marsh-land?).

Another root derived from a greek-styled derivation of a *kwel / kwer (or *kwal / *kwar) root ( > tel / ter ) could be this one:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/t%C3%A9rmn%CC%A5

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Also 'carrus' for 'chariot' (from k'ers) and 'hormos' 'chain' (from *ser) 'tie' etc made me think of Gr. harma = 'chariot', from harmos 'joint' < h₂er-.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%85%CF%81%CE%BC%CE%B1#Ancient_Greek

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82er-

with many cognates among which some traditionally connected to 'arya', like Gr. aristos for example. Regardless of the validity of this, maybe a process of lenition has happened here?

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Nirjhar, a few random thoughts (with some imagination). It's a bit funny, but a Greek word resembling 'arya' (but with an initial k-) is κάρυον karyon (wal)'nut'. From the same root you posted about 'prison, confinement' (*kar).

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=karyo-

The meanings here are 'hard, strong'. And I would say that this could come from 'well protected'. Another Greek word κράτος kratos 'might, strength, dominion, power' comes ultimately from this root too, through an intermidiate form *kret (or *kert', like the other one above compared to Sum. kar).

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%AC%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%82
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=-cracy&allowed_in_frame=0

"cancer" (in Greek karkinos) seems also to be from this IE *kar root:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=cancer

On the other hand, searching about some other hor- words in Greek one can find this one: ὅρος horos 'boundary, limit, frontier, landmark etc. Probably from *wer. The same root with 'horizon'.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%85%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%81%CF%81%CE%AF%CE%B6%CF%89#Ancient_Greek

One could think a derivation of both *kar and *wer/*war from a same root, perhaps from *kwar/*kwer (considering this as one and the same with *kwal/ *kwel). And since we have some root(s) here of 'moving, dwelling, ending, fixing, doing' - also about 'wheel' (reduplicated), one is almost forced to think about the IE migrations.

Even the names of many IE ethne could be connected. At Dnghu's Pokorny, a statement is found about it:

"This root [kʷel-] is related to the name of Celts, Gaelic and Illyrian people who were the children of Galatea. All those cognates are related to the coils of the sea serpent."

But I can imagine that it could be just because of moving and wandering, like Skrt. cárati, calati etc.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Note also that in Greek κρείττων / kreiton or κάρρων karron (from the same root *kert/ *kers < *kar) means 'better' and κράτιστος kratistos 'the best' (meaning 'mightiest'), sharing thus the same meaning with areion / aristos ('better' and 'best' repectively).

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dka%2Frrwn

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*k%3Aentry+group%3D164%3Aentry%3Dkra%2Ftistos

Nirjhar007 said...

About that root I remember the PIE-PD no.23

23. Proto-Indo-European *khreyH-/*khriH- (> *khrī-) ‘(adj.) better, superior,
glorious, illustrious; (n.) high rank’: Sanskrit śréyas- ‘more splendid or
beautiful, more excellent or distinguished, superior, preferable, better’, śrī-
‘high rank, power, might, majesty, royal dignity; light, luster, radiance,
splendor, glory, beauty, grace, loveliness’; Avestan srayah- ‘fairer, more
beautiful’, srī- ‘beauty, fairness’, srīra- ‘fair, beautiful’; Greek κρείων,
κρέων ‘ruler, lord, master’.

Dravidian: Tamil cira ‘to be eminent, illustrious; to surpass; to be
abundant; to be auspicious; to be graceful; to rejoice’, cirantōr ‘the great,
the illustrious, gods, relatives, ascetics’, cirappu ‘pre-eminence, pomp,
abundance, wealth, happiness, esteem’, ciravu ‘meritorious deed’;
Malayalam cirakka (cirannu) ‘to be glorious’; Kannaḍa serapu
‘hospitality, honor, festival’.
.

Nirjhar007 said...

I thought also again about the tilmun / telmun / dilmun of the Sumerians (maybe from **tel-mn̥, marsh-land?).

I also suspect so.

Nirjhar007 said...

Kyriakos ,

Can you tell me what Mayrhofer says about the Sanskrit word cira (चिर) :
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?beginning=0+&tinput=+cira&trans=Translate

I suspect it maybe related . Monier-Williams is unsure about its etymology .
http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/scans/MWScan/tamil/index.html

Kyriakos Samelis said...

He makes a reference (reluctantly, as it seems) to these two main theories: the first one to a comparison with Latin cilium 'eylid' (wikipedia points to a root 'kel 'to cover'). He mentions here a khotanese word cile (plur.)'dress'.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cilium

And the second theory is to the root of 'carman', apparently *(s)k'er.
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?beginning=0+&tinput=carman+&trans=Translate

His problem this time is that Sanskrit has types in "krt" and not just "k'er". He also thinks that there are difficulties to the comparisons with Dravidian words.

Nirjhar007 said...

Thanks :). I don't think his suggestions are very accurate . Cira is not related to covering but duration i.e. endurance in a way , so connected with being strong and hard IMO.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Very interesting opinion! Maybe then also to a notion of 'protection' (concerning clothes etc). BTW, Mayrhofer is referring to the theories of others.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

I remembered now Sum. gira 'sky, concealment' and all the comparisons discussed in Giacomo's first Sumerian post.

I am thinking also now about a possible connection of a *kar / *gar to Skrt. nagara 'town, fortress', also Tamil nakar, that it could be related to a meaning of 'hardness' (meaning the walls, the 'fortification'), something like 'an inhabited protected/ fortified area'.

If we consider Sum. niĝir 'city herald', also 'attendant' and its Emesal form 'libir', that would lead perhaps to the other Sum. libir about duration in time and old age.

I suppose that a 'town's herald', as a royal official (something like 'the voice of the king or the god') could give protection to the others. Or maybe a niĝir was considered as a 'divine' protector. An example, in CAD, volume N, at lemma nagiru: "may DN, the herald of Kullab, walk continually behind me for (the protection of) my life and well-beeing."

http://www.eliyahere.ru/lib/dic/CAD/cad_n1.pdf

(page 115)

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Also, the Emesal 'libir' reminds Latin liber 'free'; from a root h₁lewdʰ- meaning 'grow, people'. A root connected also with a word meaning 'came' in Greek.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%81lewd%CA%B0-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%A6%CE%BB%CE%B8%CE%BF%CE%BD#Ancient_Greek

I remember that in Giacomo's first Sumerian post, Daniel has proposed a connection of Latin urbs 'city' with an Indic word, ultimately connected with a root 'to grow' (vrdh, I think).

If Sumerian niĝir 'city crier, herald' (Emesal libir) and Skt. nagara 'city' etc are connected (a hypothesis I'm testing from the very beginning of this post), having also in mind the n-g > l-b dissimilation in Sumerian, is it possible (or valid) to think about some connection between several IE roots here? Remember that niĝir is supposed to be a loanword in Sumerian and the Akkadian word nagiru has not cognates in other Semitic languages.

Nirjhar007 said...

having also in mind the n-g > l-b dissimilation in Sumerian, is it possible (or valid) to think about some connection between several IE roots here?

Yes :) .

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Another possible comparison I can think about nagara (concerning especially the meaning of Tamil nakar as 'temple', having also in mind the Sum. n/l equation), is with this Sum. word:

lagar [PRIEST] (21x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. lagar; lagar3; la-bar "a priest" Akk. lagaru.
In Ebla list: LEX/ED IIIb/Ebla [[lagar]] = LAGAR = nu-gu2-lum.

This possibility reminds the similarity between Gr. ναός naos 'temple' (a word which is discussed also here) and λαός laos 'people'; laos has also a meaning of troops in Homer (especially in the plural, as λαοί laoi.).

From Proto-Hellenic *lāwós, possibly from Proto-Indo-European *leh₂wos “people (under arms)”), from *leh₂- (“military action”).[1] Cognate with Hittite laḫḫa-( “campaign”) and Phrygian λαϝαγταει (lawagtaei).

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BB%CE%B1%CF%8C%CF%82

Also λήιτον means town-hall or council-room:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dlh%2Fiton

There is also λήτωρ leetoor 'priest'
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dlh%2Ftwr

And of course λειτουργία 'liturgy' From Ancient Greek λειτ- (leit-), from λαός (laós, “people”) + -ουργός (-ourgós), from ἔργον (érgon, “work”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BB%CE%B5%CE%B9%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%85%CF%81%CE%B3%CE%AF%CE%B1#Ancient_Greek

Nirjhar007 said...

Do you think Sanskrit loka can be related?.
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?beginning=0+&tinput=+loka&trans=Translate

Nirjhar007 said...

This suggestion is for loka :

From Proto-Indo-European *lówkos (“open space”), from *lewk- (“shine”). Cognate with Latin lūcus (“sacred grove”) and Proto-Germanic *lauhaz (“clearing”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%B2%E0%A5%8B%E0%A4%95#Sanskrit
hmmmm well I am not sure if its correct .

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Yes, I think it can be connected. Maybe because of the field. where the city (or the building) was erected afterwards.
There is also Sum. lug [DWELL] (15x: Old Babylonian) wr. lug; lugx(LUL) "to live, dwell (of animals), pasture". Also lug, 'to be located'.

Nirjhar007 said...

and for Lug 'position' there is cited LU=part of boat ! .

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Yes, like ναυς naus or navis 'boat' :D

Kyriakos Samelis said...

There is also a word λάτρις latris 'servant, worshipper' (like in 'idolatry'), but the etymology is uknown.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BB%CE%B1%CF%84%CF%81%CE%B5%CF%8D%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/idolatry

Of course the stem in λήιτωρ / λήτωρ is leit- or leet- (lat- in the case of latris), while the Sumerian 'lagar'has a 'g'; another thing is that 'leit-' (from laos) looks like German Leute = people https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Leute
which is from h₁lewdʰ-, yet Gr. λαός laos and Leute seem to be unconnected. 'Laikos' means also 'of the people'; Beekes thinks that laos is rather pre-Greek (with a non Greek ending -ito), but I think he's exaggerating.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=lay

Kyriakos Samelis said...

About Latin urbs 'city', Giacomo had mentioned the word urvare, which is on the comparison list [Sum. uru 'to sow, cultivate, plow', Latin urvare 'to plow round, mark out with a plough', urvum 'the plough-tail', verv-agere 'to plow land', Skt. urvarā 'fertile soil , field yielding crop'.] http://new-indology.blogspot.gr/2015/

Gr. horos ὅρος (< *worwos, like in 'horizon' etc) 'boundary, limit, frontier, landmark' I was talking about is probably also related: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%85%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek

The Indic word that Daniel had compared to 'urbs' is urdhvah, "high, lofty, steep," (from *eredh) other cognates are Latin arduus "high, steep," Old Irish ard "high" and Greek orthos 'straight, correct' etc:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=ortho-&allowed_in_frame=0

rodhati ;to grow, to sprout' is not very far from *eredh, yet it belongs to this mentioned root h₁lewdʰ :
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8B%E0%A4%A7%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF#Sanskrit

Nirjhar, do you think these roots could be connected?

Nirjhar007 said...

I very much think they are related :) .

Nirjhar007 said...

Wkitionary :

Likely from Proto-Italic *worβ- (compare Umbrian [script needed] (uerfale, “area for taking auspices”)), from Proto-Indo-European *werbʰ- (“to enclose”) (compare Hittite [script needed] (warpa-, “enclosure”), Tocharian A warpi (“garden”), Tocharian B werwiye (“garden”)).[1] Derivation from Proto-Indo-European *gʰórdʰos (“city”) (from *gʰerdʰ- (“to enclose”), whence e.g. Sanskrit गृह (gṛhá, “house”), English yard) has been proposed,[2] but suffers from irregularities: ˣhorbus would be rather expected.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/urbs#Latin

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Well, Nirjhar, maybe a form like Hit. warpa-, “enclosure" could fit (I'm talking about the -rp- part) to formations like Gr. karpalimos 'swift', about running etc we're talking about before and Bomhard's har- / hor for 'fleeing' etc (assuming towns as beeing 'sheltered / fortified areas for protection'). BTW I've seen karpalimos in Kloekhorst's Hittite Lexicon, I think it was the lemma karpi- 'fury, anger', when he rejected a connection (but then I can remember some other Sum. words like ur, or urgu / murgu for 'anger' etc or maybe for dog).

Wiktionary, for orthos: Probably from *ϝορθϝός perhaps from Proto-Indo-European *worHdʰ-. Has been connected with Sanskrit ऊर्ध्व (ūrdhvá).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%80%CF%81%CE%B8%CF%8C%CF%82#Ancient_Greek

The question is if nagara (na-gara) can be connected somehow. This could be only through the Sum. attested dissimilation (n/l and g/b), I think. If it does, though strange that it seems, li-ber and 'ara-wa' (and maybe Arya) could be connected.
It seems, in case of Latin liber we can have a latin -b- < -*dh-, while in Greek, for example, we can have a -th- (in eleutheros 'free') from -*dh-; yet, in other cases, we can have a Gr. th- from a gwh-, like in thermos 'hot' (remember the case of Sum. duruna, the taliking about some other iranian types etc) and of course in Greek it's b < *gw. Also, when talking about nagara and nakar, Giacomo mentioned a Khotanese type noγor meaning 'fortress, castle'. Maybe then we have to deal with a lenition process, gw/gwh/gh/dh/ then just h, I cannot say exactly; about the gw or k I think we have seen some cases in Sumerian - IE cpomparisons that it coul be just missing somehow; also, about the vowel (nagar / nogor), it could be o perhaps due to some following laryngeal.


Kyriakos Samelis said...

rodhati 'to grow, to sprout' ( from h₁lewdʰ) reminded me Gr. ῥόδον rhodon 'rose' (< Proto Greek wrodon, in Aeolic βρόδον brodon), which is yet "ultimately from Old Iranian *wr̥da-";" possibly ultimately a derivation from a verb for "to grow" only attested in Indo-Iranian (*Hwardh-, compare Sanskrit vardh-, with relatives in Avestan)" according to Wikipedia.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rose
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BF%A5%CF%8C%CE%B4%CE%BF%CE%BD#Ancient_Greek

It is interesting that in Persian this word became 'gol' (< 'gul'). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%DA%AF%D9%84#Persian

Something else: cities are often referred as blooming / flowering; also sometimes named as such, like for example Florence:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Florence).

Kyriakos Samelis said...

The island of Rhodes (Rhodos) is said also to be names after rhodon 'rose'. Another possibility is a phoenician word for snake 'erod'.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BF%AC%CF%8C%CE%B4%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Rhodes&allowed_in_frame=0

In Starostin there is this AA root:
Proto-Afro-Asiatic: *rawʔ- ~ *ʔar(a)w- ~ *warr-
Meaning: snake
Semitic: *ʔar(a)w- 'snake, chameleon'
Egyptian: rꜣ 'snake' (NK)
Western Chadic: *rwaH- 'cobra'
High East Cushitic: *warr- 'snake'

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fafaset&text_number=+261&root=config

Kyriakos Samelis said...

About the connection with *lewk-, it is interesting that in Greek there is a word λεύσσω leusso, meaning 'see (clearly), look, observe' from the same root:

'Etymology: Beside the full grade yotpresent λεύσ(σ)ω from *λευκ-ι̯ω Sanskrit has a full grade thematic root present lokate (locate, with locanam `eye') `note, notice', which differs only in the phonetic development from rócate `light' (s. λευκός) . An athematic present is preserved in Hitt. luk-zi `become light, day' (stemvowel uncertain); further the iterative-intensive resp. causative Lat. lūceō `light (let become light)' = Skt. rocáyati `let become light' (IE *loukéiō, -eti); diff. Toch. A. lk-ā-m `I see' (zero grade with Toch. ā-lengthening), B lkā-sk-au `id.' (sk-present; cf. Lat. lūcēscit) beside primary full grade lyuketrä `it lights'. The meaning `see (clearly)' arose from `light'; s. Bechtel Lex. s. αὑγάζομαι, Lommel KZ 50, 262 ff., Fraenkel Wb. s. láukti, Frisk GHÅ 56 : 3, 11 f. - Cf. λευκός, λύχνος, λοῦσσον.'
http://etymology_el_en.enacademic.com/4275/%CE%BB%CE%B5%E1%BD%BB%CF%83%CF%83%CF%89

Looks like ...'look', which is of an uncertain etymology:
'From Middle English loken, lokien, from Old English lōcian (“to see, behold, look, gaze, observe, notice, take heed, belong, pertain, regard with favor”), from Proto-Germanic *lōkōną (“to look, see”); akin to Proto-Germanic *lōgijaną (“to see”). Further origin unknown, no certain cognates outside Germanic.'
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/look

Nirjhar007 said...

Yes Kyriakos :) , although as linguists suggest that Germanic k comes from IE g, but it should be connected .

Nirjhar007 said...

Something else: cities are often referred as blooming / flowering; also sometimes named as such, like for example Florence

Yes I think makes sense !.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Hello Nirjhar,
Concerning the connections between 'town', 'growing, blooming' and also 'pond, swamp, lake', I think this root, as it is given in Pokorny's Lexicon, is interesting:

Pokorny Etymon: 1. pel-, pelə-, plē- 'to pour, fill; full, plenary; town?'

https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1471

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/palus#Latin

Nirjhar007 said...

Indeed.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Nirjhar, I think now that Sum. engur 'subsoil water; abyssal sea of fresh water', according to J . Halloran (in his lexicon's 2006 edition he adds also 'deep, abyss; marshes') could be connected too. A word that reminds me, as I've said already in New Indology, this baltoslavic word for 'lake'.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Balto-Slavic/%C3%A9%C5%BAera

Maybe then these towns were located at river systems, like in India or Mesopotamia. About Sarasvati I found this article of prof. Kazanas; but I suppose you've already read that :).
http://indiafacts.org/sarasvati-one-key-indigenism/

Concerning the dissimilation nigir / libir, the possible connection with nagara and about the motion of 'flowing, pouring', also 'river', I think that we can compare also this word:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=libation

libation is connected to Gr. λείβω (leíbō) 'to pour, pour forth; to pour a libation [+ dative = to a god]; to let flow, shed; to melt or pine away'
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BB%CE%B5%CE%AF%CE%B2%CF%89

There is also in Greek an old word λίψ lips (genet. libos) 'stream'
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dli%2Fy2

Also, have in mind that, in Halloran's Lexicon (edition 2006), libir is described as: 'li-bi-ir Emesal dialect for mayor, village headman; police chief; plunderer, bandit; demon; vizier; herald (cf. nigir(2) ).

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Some similar words in Sumerian (about flowing etc): nagbu [WATER] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. nag-bu "waters; sources"
naĝ [DRINK] (400x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. naĝ "to drink" Akk. šatû.
naĝ-kud [RESERVOIR] (580x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III) wr. naĝ-kud "a reservoir for flood control" Akk. butuqtu.

In Semitic there is also the root *nahar for 'river'
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=1836&root=config


Kyriakos Samelis said...

My impression is of a common derivation of some IE roots / words meaning 'river, flowing / fleeing', 'snake' and also 'intestines', because of their shape; possibly also to a motion 'long' and most probably of 'dwelling'.

Nirjhar007 said...

Very interesting Kyriakos , and that Semitic root reminds me this Indic set of words :
laharĭ̄ 10999 laharĭ̄ f. ʻ large wave ʼ Kāv. 2. *lahaḍi -- .
1. Pk. laharī -- f. ʻ wave ʼ; Kho. nāri ʻ wave, rapids, water shooting up ʼ; S. lahari f. ʻ wave, fancy ʼ, laharo m. ʻ quaver, trill, whim ʼ; P. lahir f. ʻ wave, whim ʼ; Ku. lahar ʻ excitement ʼ; A. lahari ʻ wave ʼ, B. lahar; Or. naharā ʻ whirlpool ʼ; OAw. lahara f. ʻ wave ʼ; H. lahar f. ʻ wave, emotion ʼ, lahrā m. ʻ trill, lively air ʼ; G. leher, ler f. ʻ wave, caprice ʼ, M. lahar f.
2. Or. lahaṛi, °ṛā ʻ wave ʼ; Si. raḷa, rälla, st. räli<-> ʻ wave, fold, wrinkle ʼ.

http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.3.soas.1179729
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=lahari&direction=SE&script=HK&link=yes&beginning=0

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Also very interesting. Are there any cognates in other IE languages?

About 'snake' there is Hebrew *naḥaš- 'snake' which looks similar to 'nahar'.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=+178&root=config

Also one could think of the IE root of 'lake':
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=lake&allowed_in_frame=0
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lake

With an 'n' there is also the root (s)neh₂- (to swim, to float) with a mobile 's':
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/(s)neh%E2%82%82-

Kyriakos Samelis said...

There is also a root h₂lek- 'to defend', which could be perhaps connected.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CE%BB%CE%BA%CE%AE#Ancient_Greek

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CE%BB%CE%AD%CE%BE%CF%89#Ancient_Greek

Nirjhar007 said...

My impression on this was that waves form in circles and they also mimic a gird/fortifications like for cities etc . And also the sense of spiral is there with meaning applied to whirlpool .

I am trying to find the IE root, but what Mayrhofer's suggestion? :).

Kyriakos Samelis said...

I haven't yet found it, are you sure that Mayrhofer has included this?
It looks also like Sum. lah 'wash'.

Nirjhar007 said...

I asked Giacomo , he tells the root should be this :
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1123

Well I am not convinced :D .

Nirjhar007 said...

Yes Sum. lah was compared to PIE *lu/lau(H)- 'to lave, wash', Hittite lah̬h̬u(wai)- 'to pour', Latin lavare 'to wash', ab-lu-tio 'washing away, ablution', Greek louo 'I wash', OHG luhhen etc.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

I think that if the basic meaning of lahari is 'desire' etc, it could be connected to the root Giacomo has told you; in my mind it must have to do with the root of 'liber' etc; just like the IE root of 'free' which has a meaning “dear, beloved, to be fond of" ; look here:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/free
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1554

BTW, in modern Greek there is a word λαχτάρα lahtara 'desire, longing' etc, which is said to be derived from λακτίζω laktizo 'to kick (against)'
https://glosbe.com/el/en/%CE%BB%CE%B1%CF%87%CF%84%CE%AC%CF%81%CE%B1
http://biblehub.com/greek/2979.htm

Kyriakos Samelis said...

There is also Sum. lala [PLENTY] (53x: Old Babylonian) wr. la-la; a-la; la "plenty, happiness, lust" Akk. lalû; a word we've discussed at Giacomo's last Sumerian post.

Other Sum. words: la [FLOODING] wr. la6 "flooding" Akk. nīlu.
Also lalHAR [WATERS] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. lal3-|HI×AŠ2|; lal3-gar "subterranean waters".

Kyriakos Samelis said...

There is this (unrelated, I guess) Sumerian word:

sahar [DUST] (982x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. sahar "earth, soil; dust" Akk. eperu

Looks like Persian šahr: 1. (obsolete) land, country; 2. city, town.
According to wikipedia from *tke- (“to gain power over, gain control over”); akin to Sanskrit क्षत्र (kṣatrá, “might, power”), Avestan [script needed] (xšaθra, “kingdom”), Khotanese kṣāra- (“power, dominion”), Old Armenian loanword աշխարհ (ašxarh) and Ancient Greek κτάομαι (ktáomai, “to get, acquire”).
I'm not sure though about that, it should be with 'sh', instead of just 's', I think.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%B4%D9%87%D8%B1#Persian

About the meaning 'dust', another word that I was thinking of is Gr. σκωρία skoria 'slag, dross, scoria', apparently frpm *(s)ker:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scoria#Latin

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Let's see: Halloran has it as sahar: silt, dust, sand, earth, mud, loam; rubbish; sediment (cf., kuš7) (sa5, 'red-brown', + hara, 'crushed, pulverized').

Looks like 'Sahara'; in AA there is a root *c̣aḥVraʔ-
Meaning: sand
Semitic: *ṣaḥraʔ- 'desert'
Western Chadic: *ʔac̣VHVr- /*c̣VHir- 'sand'

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fafaset&text_number=1131&root=config

On the other hand, Akkadian eperu, epru, ipiru [SAḪAR :] means:
[City → Buildings] 1) earth, dust, soil for building work or from excavation or from destruction or for concealment 2) dust storm 3) dust of the feet, dust from the street 4) OA: dust for self-debasement to be put on the head 5) MB: dust under the king' s feet 6) [bīt eperu]: house of dust, underworld, netherworld, sheol, sojourn of the dead 7) [kišid eperu]: conquest of the soil, doomed to be buried 8) MA,MB: mortar in masonry 9) [eperu ša kupri]: earth yielding copper (ores) 10) quantité de terre , volume of earth 11) Mari,EA,Bg : land , territory, estate.

http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=5169&language=id

In Hittite there is a word sahessar (BÀD-essar) 'fortress' = is a verbal noun fr. the same sah- = clog, plug, stuff up‘ (IE *dhyóE₂-) seen in sehur [body wastes, crap‘], Luw. dūr = crap, urine‘, Lat. faeces, etc. (4.65), thus = shut area; stronghold‘, and produces denom. sahesnai-, sahesn(a)eski- = fortify, make into a stronghold‘ (AI 301).

That looks almost like Akkadian ḫaṣāru:
Number: 651
Proto-Semitic: *ḥič̣/ṣ/ĉ̣ar-
Meaning: 'enclosure'1, 'camp' 2, 'yard' 3, 'area' 4
Akkadian: ḫaṣāru 1
Ugaritic: ḥẓr
Phoenician: ḥṣr 3
Hebrew: ḥāṣer 2,3
Syrian Aramaic: ḥǝṣārā 3
Arabic: ḥit_̣ār-, ḥiṣār-1, ḥaḍr- 'pays habité, habitation fixe (de ceux qui ne sont pas nomades)'
Epigraphic South Arabian: ḥṣwr 4
Geʕez (Ethiopian): ḥaṣur 1
Jibbali: ḥoṣor 'besiege, hem in'
Notes: Irregular h_- in Akk

Kyriakos Samelis said...

So, maybe the meanings 'fortress' and 'dirt, soil' (as building material) are connected too. Also, about 'dung' (sorry), from the "Hittite Vocabulary", page 42:
http://www.sonic.net/~dweeks/work/samples/dissertation.pdf

4.66 — DEFECATE — sakkar (Luw. sahh- = dirt, filth‘) has been compared with Gk. σκῶρ, etc.
since Benveniste (Origines 9). Spelling variants zakkar and zasgar- indicate /(t)skar/ < *skōr, while gen. saknas and derivs. saknuwant- = filthy, full of shit, impure‘ and saknumar = feces‘ call for a reconstruction *sókr, obl. *sókn- (Puhvel Florilegium Anatolicum 303 = AI 371).

Gr. σκώρ (skṓr) σκᾰ́τος (skátos)
From Proto-Hellenic *skṓr, from Proto-Indo-European *sḱṓr, the collective of *sóḱr̥ (“excrement, dung”). Cognate Proto-Germanic *skarną.[1]
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CE%BA%E1%BF%B6%CF%81

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Akkadian eper, epiru etc here:

Number: 1131
Proto-Semitic: *ʕapar-
Afroasiatic etymology: Afroasiatic etymology
Meaning: 'dust, soil'
Akkadian: ep(e)r- 'dust; earth, loose earth; territory, soil; etc' CAD E 184
Ugaritic: ʕpr
Hebrew: ʕapār
Syrian Aramaic: ʕapr-
Arabic: ʕafar-, ʕafr- 'terre, poussière'; ʕufrat- 'couleur grisâtre de poussière', ʔaʕfar- 'roegeâtre melé; sable rougeâtre' BK 2 298
Tigre: ʕäfär 'dust, desert' LH 492
Mehri: ʔafur 'cloud'; ʕōfer 'red'
Jibbali: ʕɔ́fɔ́r 'to dig, dig over; to make the ablutions with sand', ʕafor 'cloud' (<'dust cloud'); ʕofer 'red'
Harsusi: ʔāfor 'cloud, dust wind' (sic!), ʔafer 'red'
Soqotri: ʕafer 'red'

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=1131&root=config

Perhaps connected, this one too:

Proto-Afro-Asiatic: *ʔa-far-
Meaning: dust , sand
Semitic: *ʔapar- 'dust, soil; ashes'
Western Chadic: *far- 'dry soil'
Central Chadic: *Hafur- 'ground' 1, 'flat (piece of) land (field?)' 2
East Chadic: *Puur- 'dust'
Low East Cushitic: *far- 'clay'

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fafaset&text_number=1619&root=config

Maybe connected to the name of Africa
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Africa

or this root (too much similar roots in AA)
Proto-Semitic: *ɣabar-
Afroasiatic etymology: Afroasiatic etymology
Meaning: 'dust'
Arabic: ɣabar-at-, ɣubār-, ɣubr-at-
Harsusi: ʁebār
Notes: Seconary vocalism in ʁubār-, ʁubr-at-. *-u- > *-a- after a labial is regular

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=+783&root=config

Kyriakos Samelis said...

There is also a word σκῖρος skiros 'hard earth', 'white earth' in Greek, but I'm not sure if it is connected.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dski%3Dros2

Nirjhar007 said...

in my mind it must have to do with the root of 'liber' etc;

mmmmm I tentatively agree on this :D .

Other Sum. words: la [FLOODING] wr. la6 "flooding" Akk. nīlu.
Also lalHAR [WATERS] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. lal3-|HI×AŠ2|; lal3-gar "subterranean waters"


yup.

Nirjhar007 said...

I think the Sumerian sahar [DUST] (982x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. sahar "earth, soil; dust" and the suggested PA root*c̣aḥVraʔ are very close , this root is also seen in Soil and Swine I think .I find it of course intriguing that in Latin there is aper 'Pig' German Eber.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/aper#Etymology_2

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Well, I never thought about that ;)

सूकर From Proto-Indo-Iranian (compare also Persian خوک (xuk)), from a derivative of Proto-Indo-European *suh₂kéh₂, from *sū-. Compare English sow, Welsh hwch.

Noun[edit]
सूकर (sūkará) m. boar, hog, pig, swine
a kind of deer (the hog-deer)
a particular fish
white rice
potter
name of a particular hell

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%B8%E0%A5%82%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%B0#Sanskrit

Kyriakos Samelis said...

There is a region in Greece called Epeiros, sometimes connected to some Akkadian word, but I'm not sure if it is with this one we are talking now. From Wikipedia:
" Ἤπειρος, Ḗpeiros (Doric: Ἄπειρος, Ápeiros), meaning "mainland" or terra firma.It is thought to come from an Indo-European root *apero- 'coast', and was originally applied to the mainland opposite Corfu and the Ionian islands."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus

Kyriakos Samelis said...

This 'Proto-Greek Area' includes some great rivers (meaning great for Greece's proportions) like Akheloos, Aliakmon and Aoos. I was wondering, if έλος helos / saras < *seles (marsh, pool) and *sar 'run. flow' are connected, perhaps we could imagine also some connection to Hellas (meaning Greece in Greek) - the problem here I guess is the 'double l' ('Hellas' is supposed to be from 'Selj-as').

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png

Nirjhar007 said...

Yeah and in Sumerian we of course have sah 'Pig ' IIRC.

Epeiros seem to have this etymology :
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0101

Nirjhar007 said...

Selj-as what is the definition?.

Nirjhar007 said...

Some Out of India proponents suggest a connection with this tribe for Hellenes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alina_people

But seriously , Giacomo also pointed to me, the Ethnonym is late , not used by Homer for the Greeks :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Greeks#Hellenes_.28.E1.BC.9D.CE.BB.CE.BB.CE.B7.CE.BD.CE.B5.CF.82.29

Nirjhar007 said...

But for Ἀχαιοί Akhaioí, "the Achaeans" (Hittite Aḫḫiyawā) and Iranian Achaemenid comes from the same root of Sanskrit Sakha'companion,friend'(http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=2402&root=config) ."Old Persian: Haxāmaniš; a bahuvrihi compound translating to "having a friend's mind""in Avestan haxaiia means 'association' (Giacomo) . This theory IMO looks promising . Also in Avesta there is a certain Danava people which may correspond with Danaoi :
37. We worship the good, strong, beneficent Fravashis of the faithful, who form many battalions, girded with weapons 2, lifting up spears, and full of sheen; who in fearful battles come rushing along where the gallant heroes 3 go and assail the Dânus 4.

38. There you destroy the victorious strength of the Turanian Dânus; there you destroy the malice of the Turanian Dânus; through you the chiefs 5 are of high intellect 6 and most successful; they, the gallant heroes the gallant Saoshyants 7, the gallant conquerors of the offspring of the Dânus chiefs of myriads, who wound with stones 8.


http://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe23/sbe2318.htm

Nirjhar007 said...

From the starling link :
Proto-IE: *sokʷ- (-kʷh-)
Meaning: companion, fellow
Old Indian: sákhā (acc. sákhāyam, other cases from sakhi-) m. `friend, assistant, companion'
Avestan: haxay- (haši-) `Gefährte, Genosse, Freunde'
Other Iranian: OPers Haxāmaniš-
Old Greek: opā́ōn, ion. opéōn, myk. o-qa-wo-ni m. `Gefährte, Begleiter', opǟdó-s m. `Begleiter'; aor. aossē̂sai̯ `helfe, beistehen' (от *sm-sokʷ-jo-)
Germanic: *sag-já- m.
Latin: socius, -a `gemeinsam', socius, -ī m. `Gefährte, Genosse, Teilnehmer, Bundesgenosse', socia f. `Genossin'
Russ. meaning: спутник, товарищ
References: WP II 476 f
Comments: [Quite probably derived from *sekʷe-, the problem is -h-.]
...............................................................................................

Nirjhar007 said...

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=*sekw-&allowed_in_frame=0
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/sek%CA%B7-

Nirjhar007 said...

See also :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Irish_goddess)

Kyriakos Samelis said...

I'm not sure if it is connected with the Achaeans, but sákhā etc reminded me Sum. saĝ [HEAD] (3582x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. saĝ "head; person; capital" Akk. qaqqadu; rēšu.

Especially the Germanic word for "man, warrior" >

Proto-Germanic: *sagjá-z
Meaning: man, warrior
IE etymology: IE etymology
Old Norse: segg-r m. `Mann, Krieger'
Norwegian: segg
Old English: secg `Gefolgsmann, Geselle, Mann'
Old Frisian: siā `Nachkommenschaft'
Old Saxon: segg `Gefährte, Krieger'
Old High German: { bein-segga `Begleiterin' }

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fgermet&text_number=++1593&root=config

reminded me Sum. ursaĝ [HERO] (750x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ur-saĝ "hero" Akk. qarrādu. It is givens as οροσάγγης orosangees by Hesychius. Something like 'warrior in service of the Persoan king", I think.

Halloran has also some other meanings of this word saĝ : saĝ sa12: head; point; leader; present, gift; slave; human, individual (sá, 'to equal'; sa4, 'to name', + ĝe26, ĝá, myself) [SAG archaic frequency: 420]. adj., first, first-class, prime. prep., in front.

I didn't know about the 'Turanian Dânus'; Saha is also a name of a turcic people, I think (Yakut area). 'Danaoi' is often stated as an argument for the Kurgan hypothesis, obviously as connected to some rivers' names in that region (Danube, Don, Dniepr etc).

Kyriakos Samelis said...

About the name of the Achaeans (Akhaioi) in Homer, it seems to be the general name of all Greeks that participated in the Trojan War, yet it doesn't include this supposed 'Proto - Greek' area in Epeiros, which Aristoteles connected to 'Ancient Hellas'. In Homer 'Hellas' is a region or city of Phthia, which is Akhileus' (Achilles) kingdom in southern Thessaly; this perhaps indicates some spreading of this name (maybe also of people?); Neoptolemos, the son of Akhilleus became king in Epeiros according to the legend:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoptolemus

Ahhiyawa also could be a region in Western Anatolia and this connection to the Greek Akhaioi seems to fit also to the 'out of Armenia' theory, assuming a Greek immigration to the southern Balkans straightly through Asia Minor.


Kyriakos Samelis said...

About 'Sel-jas' for Hellas, there is a proposed connection to Gothic saljan, "present, sacrifice', since 'Selloi' are describes also as 'priests'. This is the root of 'sell'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selloi
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=sell

About Alinas, I checked in Mayrhofer, and he's wondering if this is connected to the name Arya.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

A name for Greeks in Homer is also Αργείοι Argeioi 'Argives', and that reminds Arzawa, another country in Western Anatolia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arzawa

Perhaps some Anatolian consonants were strengthened in Greek like the hh > kh in Ahhiyawa, maybe also z > g in Arzawa.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

So, I think that Greeks and Anatolians (both IE people) were most probably mixed in all these areas, meaning in western Anatolia and eastern Greece, obviously Greeks outnumbered Anatolians in Greece (including the Aegean) and Anatolians (mostly Carians) outnumbered Greeks in western Anatolia. Carians are also an interesting people - also because of their ethnonym : Kar (Carian) ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carians

Kyriakos Samelis said...

About Φθία Phthia, the country of Achilleus (an area described as 'fertile', of which the Homeric 'Hellas' was a part), its name could be connected to phthisis (or psisis in Hesychius) meaning "consumption, decline; wasting away" (from a TK thorn cluster); here I think that the name perhaps is referring to the (destructive) force of some streams - currents (the main stream there is Sperkheios, which was regarded as an important river in ancient Greece). Also in antiquity 'Hellas' (as opposed to the Peloponnese) was signifying the land beteween the rivers of Sperkheios in Phthiotis and Asopos in Boetia (a land with many streams - lakes - marshes). Boeotians were a Greek people whose origin was in Thessaly and ultimately in Epirus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spercheios
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeotia

Nirjhar007 said...

About Alinas, I checked in Mayrhofer, and he's wondering if this is connected to the name Arya.
Yes like the Alans . I am wondering if the name Hellenes is itself related to *harya form or not , but perhaps its too much speculation ;).

Nirjhar007 said...


A name for Greeks in Homer is also Αργείοι Argeioi 'Argives', and that reminds Arzawa, another country in Western Anatolia.

This root is suggested to be the source :


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%8C%CF%81%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek

Nirjhar007 said...

But the suggestion there in the Selloi wiki and the possible connection for '' Selloi changed to Sellanes and then to Hellanes/Hellenes.'' Its not bad . It explains the double l .

Nirjhar007 said...

The ethnonym of Ancient Greek: Κᾶρες, Kares, plural of Κάρ, Kar reminds me the Sanskrit Kuru कुरु people :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuru_Kingdom

There I think a clears connection with Greek Κῦρος, Kȳros, from Old Persian Kūruš. According to the inscriptions the name is reflected in Elamite Kuraš, Babylonian Ku(r)-raš/-ra-áš and Imperial Aramaic kwrš. The modern Persian form of the name is Koorosh.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus

Kyriakos Samelis said...

About Argives and Argos, yes, there is this etymology from the IE root for 'white'
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CF%81%CE%B3%CF%8C%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
but there are also other theories, for example look at wikipedia here:"

"The name of the city is very ancient and several etymological theories have been proposed as an explanation to its meaning. The most popular one maintains that the name of the city is a remainder from the Pelasgian language, i.e. the one used by the people who first settled in the area, in which Argos meant "plain". Alternatively, the name is associated with Argos, the third king of the city in ancient times, who renamed it after himself, thus replacing its older name Foronikon Asty (Φορωνικόν Άστυ). It is also believed that "Argos" is linked to the word "αργός" (argós), which meant "white"; possibly, this had to do with the visual impression given of the argolic plain during harvest time. According to Strabo, the name could have even originated from the word "αγρός" (=field) by antimetathesis of the consonants."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argos

Kyriakos Samelis said...

I think it's amazing this prevailance of the central liquid 'R' (or sometimes 'L') element in the names of so many people and ethnic groups. For example, we have (H)R for Aryas (or KR and PR for Kuru and Puru). Or in some Grecian names like, for example Graioi / Graikoi (KR) or Argeioi (HRK); maybe also Hellenes (HL / SL). Consider also: PRS (Persians), PRT (Parthians), PRK (Phrygians / Brygians), SRM (Sarmatians, Sirmians), KRK (Karkisa, Karians), TRK (Thracians), TRT (Tartessians), SRT (Sardeians - 'Lydians' - maybe also Sardenians), KRT (Cretans), KLT (Keltoi, Celts), KRM (Germani, maybe also Carmanians), TRM (Trmilli, 'Lycians'). Or even in non IE people, like TRS (Tyrsenians, Rasena, 'Etruscans'), HRP (Arabs), HPR (Hebrew), TRK for Turks etc.

Nirjhar007 said...

True :) .

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Hello Nirjhar,
This 'KR' (etc) seems, in my mind, to exist also in nagara / nakar (NKR). I've seen also at this nice site you've shown me that the name of the Hittites (nešili) is connected to the *nes- root (about going, returning home, safety etc); going to something, anyway, that is protecting you and keep you safe. I think the city of the 'Hittites' was 'Nesa'.

http://pielexicon.hum.helsinki.fi/

I'm asking myself if this NS, lets's say, could be derived from an older NK (maybe NKR could be splitted to NK and KR?)

Kyriakos Samelis said...

The 'PR' cluster, meanwhile, exists also in the other word for fortified city like πόλις pólis; etymology "from Proto-Indo-European *tpolH-, o-grade form of *tpelH- (“fortification”). The early form πτόλις (ptólis) shows metathesis tp > pt because Ancient Greek stop clusters always end in a coronal. Cognate with Sanskrit पुर (pura, “city”) and Lithuanian pilis."

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CF%8C%CE%BB%CE%B9%CF%82#Ancient_Greek

This curious 'TP' cluster looks like a typical TK one (if we use Kw>P). Now, this would seem like a game, or rather unlikely, but one could imagine, I think, a connection between a word like the Khotanese or Pali 'noγor' through a possible dissimilation form **lopor (like nigir > libir), and secondly from l>d (t), resulting to a word like topor / topol > (t)pol or (t)por, then p(t)ol- , pur- etc.

Nirjhar007 said...

I agree कीरियाकोस :) .

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Hi निर्झर (or Νιρτζχαρ :D ), I'm honoured you wrote my name in Hindi ;)

I was thinking about Κῦρος, Kȳros (from Old Persian Kūruš); I remembered we have discussed about it at Giakomo's first Sumerian connection post. I was referring then to Sum. ĝuruš "young adult male; able-bodied male worker; semi-free male worker" (Akk. eţlu), which I have connected to Gr. κοῦρος kouros (or koros) 'young man, youth, boy', from root *k̑er-, k̑erə-, k̑rē- 'to grow, increase'.
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0930

Sum. ĝuruš is nasalized, and in Semitic of Ebla this was indicated by the sign name "nu-ri-š-um". On the other hand, the Hebrew word for 'boy' is na'ar (nahar) which looks similar to the Hebrew war of river 'river' that we have also talking about.

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5104.htm
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5288.htm

This similarity to our word nagara, made me think again about the connection with the meaning of 'growing'; we have these possibly connected roots: a nasalized (?) 'k̑er or k̑or-' (or maybe a prefixed one?), also the *kwel and *kwer (Sum. ĝ of ĝuruš is usually described as a nasalized labiovelar or palatal); also a *leu-dh-er 'to grow up; free; people' (with Lat. liber, Skrt. rodhati etc) that I have assumed as a dissimilated form (like Sum. ni-gir / li-bir); finally, in Pokorny, the word polis 'town' is found in this root:
1. pel-, pelə-, plē- 'to pour, fill; full, plenary; town?',
a root indicating a notion of abundance and filling (connected to growing)
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1471

So I think that maybe all these roots are connected (k'>kw>p).

I remembered also Latin pullus (for 'young animal'), according to Wikipedia, "from *polH-, (“animal young”) (also see Ancient Greek πῶλος (pôlos), English foal, Albanian pelë ‘mare’, Old Armenian ուլ (ul, “kid, fawn”)), which is ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *peh₂w- (“smallness”). See also Old English fēaw (“little, few”), Sanskrit पोत (pota, “young animal”) Lithuanian putytis (“young bird, young animal”)."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pullus
Yet I think that this *polH- could have to do with a meaning of 'growing' again.

So, I am thinking about a meaning of growing for both people and town here.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Note that *kwel > *pel is again Dziebel's theory; he writes:

"7. IE *kwel– ‘full, fertile’: IE *kwel– ‘crowd’ (Skrt kulam ‘herd, lineage’, OIr clan, cland ‘offspring, lineage, clan’, Lith kiltis ‘clan’, Gk telos ‘crowd’, Slav *celedi ‘serfs, servants’) ~ IE *pel– ‘full, offspring, multitude’: Gk pleerees ‘full’, pleethos ‘multitude’, Skrt puurnas ‘full’, Lat pleoo ‘fill up’, pleenus ‘full’, pleebees ‘crowd’, OIr lan ‘full’, Goth full ‘full’, Lith pilnas ‘full’, Slav *pulnu ‘full’, *plemen < *pled-men– ‘tribe’, *plodu ‘fruit, offspring’. There’s a complete semantic and morphological alignment between Slav *celedi ‘serfs, servants’, OIr cland ‘clan’, on the one hand, and Lat pleebees ‘crowd’ and Slav *pled-men ‘tribe’."

http://kinshipstudies.org/blog/2014/07/23/indo-european-labiovelars-a-new-look/

Nirjhar007 said...

So I think that maybe all these roots are connected (k'>kw>p).

Once again I agree . And again this is the magic of etymology , these interconnections and evolution of roots .

Kyriakos Samelis said...

At the end maybe Kuru and Puru are connected also etymologically.
I remembered this famous king Porus (Πῶρος, Pôros in Greek), whose story we are taught at school:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porus

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Hey, my name seems also close, could be connected too :P
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%8D%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82

The 'r' always puzzles me; sometimes seems to be part of a root, sometimes of the ending...

This is also my hometown in Greece (actually where my parents were born), Pylos at the south-western corner of the Peloponnese; in Mycenaean tablets the name is written as pu-ro :D.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pylos

Nirjhar007 said...


At the end maybe Kuru and Puru are connected also etymologically.
I remembered this famous king Porus (Πῶρος, Pôros in Greek), whose story we are taught at school:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porus



Yes quite possible .

Yes some say he bear the tribal name . In theory he made Alexander exhausted and his troops unwilling to carry on the invasion , the size of other armies were also huge.

Hey, my name seems also close, could be connected too :P
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%8D%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82

The 'r' always puzzles me; sometimes seems to be part of a root, sometimes of the ending...

This is also my hometown in Greece (actually where my parents were born), Pylos at the south-western corner of the Peloponnese; in Mycenaean tablets the name is written as pu-ro :D.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pylos
.

O_O . Incredible :D .

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Yes :D and, as I said at Giacomo's first post, 'ku-ro' means in Linear A 'sum, totality'.
Some say it is a Semitic word (kullo, 'whole'). I. Mosenkis says it is from kyrios (here: https://www.academia.edu/27687555/MINOAN_GREEK_SOCIETY_IN_LINEAR_A )
But maybe it's the Indo-Iranian connection from Mittani :P

Nirjhar007 said...

As you may know, we are going to get some Mycenaen aDNA real soon and really can't wait for them . There is also a crazy ;) theory, that Linear A was Indo-Iranian speaking :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_A#Indo-Iranian

We will have to see the Y-DNA , and if there is the certain R1a-Z93 , then that idea may get some genetic proof.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Well, I wouldn't be surprised; according to Homer Crete used to have five peoples. Pylos, on the other hand, was in close contact with Crete in Mycenaean Age; perhaps you'd know that they have found recently the tomb of a distinguished man whom they've named 'griffin warrior'; here:
https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.gr/2016/10/this-is-face-of-mysterious-griffin.html#Keg06BPFPMaHutMX.97

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Nirjhar, what do you think about it? I noticed this city's name at Giacomo's Mitanni post. From Wikipedia:

"Tell Brak (Nagar, Nawar) was an ancient city in Syria. Its remains constitute a tell located in the Upper Khabur region, near the modern village of Tell Brak, 50 kilometers north-east of Al-Hasaka city, Al-Hasakah Governorate. The city's original name is unknown. During the second half of the third millennium BC, the city was known as Nagar and later on, Nawar.

Starting as a small settlement in the seventh millennium BC, Tell Brak evolved during the fourth millennium BC into one of the biggest cities in Northern Mesopotamia, and interacted with the cultures of southern Mesopotamia. The city shrank in size at the beginning of the third millennium BC with the end of Uruk period, before expanding again around c. 2600 BC, when it became known as Nagar, and was the capital of a regional kingdom that controlled the Khabur river valley. Nagar was destroyed around c. 2300 BC, and came under the rule of the Akkadian Empire, followed by a period of independence as a Hurrian city-state, before contracting at the beginning of the second millennium BC. Nagar prospered again by the 19th century BC, and came under the rule of different regional powers. In c. 1500 BC, Tell Brak was a center of Mitanni before being destroyed by Assyria c. 1300 BC. The city never regained its former importance, remaining as a small settlement, and abandoned at some points of its history, until disappearing from records during the early Abbasid era."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_Brak

Nirjhar007 said...

Very interesting! , ask him what he thinks :) . It can be an Aryan name already!.

Giacomo Benedetti said...

According to Krebernik, cited in Wiki: "During the third millennium BC, the city was known as "Nagar", which might be of Semitic origin and mean a "cultivated place". The name "Nagar" ceased occurring following the Old Babylonian period,[7][8] however, the city continued to exist as Nawar, under the control of Hurrian state of Mitanni." The local language was a form of Eblaite, so Semitic indeed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eblaite_language
We can also suppose that the name has to do with Sumerian nagar 'carpenter', but it is not very logic for a city to be called so.

But since nagara for city is only Indo-Aryan and Khotanese (and that can also be a loanword from Prakrit), it is difficult to admit that it was known in the Near East, and that Semitic people used it. At the time of Mitanni it was called Nawar, a Hurrian variant without connection with Aryan words.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Hello, Giacomo,
I think that Nawar must be a variation of Nagar, like for example there is Nepal and Newar:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newar_people
As for the use of foreign names, well, I think in Greece, for example, there are plenty of them which are in use, both ancient ('pre-Greek') or modern ones (like Slavic, Italian, Turkish, or Albanian) ;)
Although it seems odd, I wouldn't exclude 'a propos' a possible presence of an Indo-Aryan element in Mesopotamia or even Eastern Mediterrenean. Pylos for example (in Linear B 'pu-ro') could be a Mycenaean rendering of the word for 'city'; there were three cities with that name Pylos in Western Peloponnese, according to ancient writers.

Giacomo Benedetti said...

Hello, of course Nawar is a variation, I wrote a Hurrian variant. And of course there are also names of cities in languages that are later forgotten, for instance we have some Etruscan toponyms in Italy. But the name Nagar is attested from the Semitic period, and if it has a Semitic etymology I think we can be satisfied, and not to search for an Indo-Aryan connection that in that period and region is not justified. It is even possible that at that time (in 3rd mill. BC) the Indic word nagara did not exist yet!

What you say about Pylos is interesting, because it can belong to the root of pur- and polis (there is also ptolis that has suggested a root tpolH, see https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CF%8C%CE%BB%CE%B9%CF%82#Ancient_Greek). So, 'pulos' (Mycenean used only r instead of l because of the adopted script) for city can be a pre-Greek or a Mycenean variant of the same word as polis. We can also consider that in Etruscan, city was 'spur'.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Hello again, the most probable AA root I could find at Starling for 'arable land, cultivated field' (having in mind also nagar and agar), is this one:

Proto-Afro-Asiatic: *(HV)g(w)Vr-
Meaning: cultivated field; tilling, hoeing
Semitic: *(ʔV-)g(w)ar- (or *hugar-)/*garh- 'field, arable land'
Berber: *HigVr 'field, arable land'
Western Chadic: *gwVgr- (<*gwVrgVr-?) 'to till the soil'
Central Chadic: *ŋgwurum- 'hoe'
Notes: < *ʔV-gʷar- related to *gwar- or gu/ar- 'to collect, harvest', with *ʔV- prefixed, or < *hVgwVr- to compare to Eth. *garh-, with metathesis.

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fafaset&text_number=2409&root=config

A meaning of 'collect, harvest' makes more sense than just 'arable land' when talking about a city, I think. Maybe then there is some connection with Gr. ageiro / agora etc, as we have'been discussed already.

Also, the possibility of a g(w) labiovelar could perhaps explain the Mitannian 'Nawar'. In Sumerian there is also the city of Nippur / Nibru https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippur which could be connected also (from gw > b), i think. I would't exclude a possible connection to pur- for 'city' in this case. About Sum. nagar 'carpenter', I think it could be related if it initially meant something like Gr. tekton ('carpenter, builder'); although, as it seems, a builder in Sumerian was 'shidim'.

It seems that this city Nagar must be a very old. I think that the IE connection in this case has to do with the possibility of an IE Urheimat in Armenia or somewhere near nothern Mesopotamia. We have discussed about Zagros mountains, haven't we?

Giacomo Benedetti said...

Yes, there is also the question of the identity of the Halaf civilization, that according to Gamkrelidze was IE and apparently is at the origin of Tell Brak. But it is probable that the name changed with time, and before the Semites we have an Uruk colony, so a Sumerian presence is probable.

However, to name a city 'carpenter' seems unlikely, I do not know similar examples. Moreover: "With the end of Uruk culture c 3000 BC, Tell Brak's Urukean colony was abandoned and deliberately leveled by its occupants." So, it is possible that the Semites changed the name of the city, and what you say about Semitic roots is promising, only we should know if there is a prefix na-.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

About Sum. nagar, I'm not wondering if the city was named by it, but quite the opposite; if some professions, involved with urban activities (like for example Sum. niĝir "herald", in the reality a kind of town officer) could possibly have taken their names by the word for 'city' (nagar / nagara). Like, for example, the word 'police' is derived from Gr. politeia '(city) government', which is from polis (city).

Kyriakos Samelis said...

The connection with the Etruscan word 'spur' for city is also very interesting, because it leads, I think, to other cities' names, like for example Sparta (Σπάρτη Sparte) in Greece or Sfard (Sardeis) in Lydia; maybe also Sippar in Mesopotamia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sippar



Giacomo Benedetti said...

Thenk you for the comparison, however I do not think it is the same word as spur, the vowel is different and there is the dental, but the similarity between Sparta and Sfard/Sparda (Old Persian form) is strong. A theory of the etymology of Sparta is from the verb 'to sow', a 'sown land', which makes it curiously near to the Semitic explanation of Nagar. Here in Black Athena with Afro-Asiatic comparisons:
https://books.google.it/books?id=yFLm_M_OdK4C&pg=PA513&lpg=PA513&dq=sparta+etymology&source=bl&ots=_1pvBvmOkY&sig=AVzkrBLrHuQ74HDe-nwNoMq5a3I&hl=it&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjngvjYj-PUAhWH1hoKHZqpAJcQ6AEIYTAH#v=onepage&q=sparta%20etymology&f=false

The author Bernal considers also Etruscan spur, from the same Egyptian word sp3t 'nome, district'.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Yes, there is also this theory from σπείρω speiro 'to sow' and σπόρος sporos 'seed'; https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%80%CE%B5%CE%AF%CF%81%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
It could be a kind of metaphor, a 'germination' of a place with people.
The -τός -tos in σπαρτός spartos 'sown' is an ending. There us also a word σπάρτος spartos 'a kind of broom' (shrub).

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Sparta

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=sparto%2Fs&la=greek&can=sparto%2Fs0&d=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:alphabetic%20letter=*s111:entry%20group=57:entry=sparto/s1&i=1

Kyriakos Samelis said...

It is the same metaphor with Latin incolo:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/incolo

Kyriakos Samelis said...

There were many traditions that connected Lydia and Greece, especially the Peloponnese; even the hero Pelops was the son of Tantalus, a king of Lydia in mythology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia

Kyriakos Samelis said...

I think that nother town which could be compared to nagar / nagara could be the city of Nazareth in Palestine (Hebrew Netzer):

One view holds that "Nazareth" is derived from one of the Hebrew words for 'branch', namely ne·ṣer, נֵ֫צֶר,[8] and alludes to the prophetic, messianic words in Book of Isaiah 11:1, 'from (Jesse's) roots a Branch (netzer) will bear fruit'. One view suggests this toponym might be an example of a tribal name used by resettling groups on their return from exile.[9] Alternatively, the name may derive from the verb na·ṣar, נָצַר, "watch, guard, keep,"[10] and understood either in the sense of "watchtower" or "guard place", implying the early town was perched on or near the brow of the hill, or, in the passive sense as 'preserved, protected' in reference to its secluded position.[11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazareth

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Another possible comparison for spur etc is this one:

Number: 2704
Proto-Semitic: *sib- 3, 4 ~ *sibir- 1, 2 ~ (?) *sVbVr (or <*swr) 5
Afroasiatic etymology: Afroasiatic etymology
Meaning: 'fortification' 3, 'outskirts of a city' 4, 'to fence off' 5
Modern Arabic: Oman sība 3
Geʕez (Ethiopian): sibā 4 LGz 482
Jibbali: esber 5 JJ 232 *swr

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=2704&root=config

Kyriakos Samelis said...

There is a word in Classical Ge'ez (Classical Ethiopic) hagar 'city, town, village, province, district, country, homeland, inhabited region (pl. 'ahgur, 'ahgurat).

https://books.google.gr/books?id=WqkbGRnoSncC&pg=PA216&lpg=PA216&dq=geez+hagar+city&source=bl&ots=Uby-9m3gVP&sig=-nTq4kxUOdf4CyHgFa-bHoOuE8c&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj6-v3jmebUAhXIK8AKHYhZDPcQ6AEIKDAB#v=onepage&q=geez%20hagar%20city&f=false

Kyriakos Samelis said...

About nagar 'carpenter' etc, here about the possible multiple meanings:

"Nagar can mean a woodworker, but it can also mean a skilled tradesman or craftsman of any kind; an architect, a master builder, a stonemason, a ploughman, a tiller, a scholar or a Rabbi (which means ‘teacher’), all of which applied to Jesus in a spiritual sense."

http://www.bibleabookoftruth.com/WasJesusACarpenter.pdf

Kyriakos Samelis said...

Meanwhile,'nagar' (carpenter) does not escape, as it seems, the usual dissimilation to 'labar' (Emesal); here, it is implied, I think, that its initial pronunciation was close to 'nangwar':

https://books.google.gr/books?id=j7b4vQ-XWJMC&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=nagar+la-bar+sumerian+carpenter&source=bl&ots=AMw9l5zzOw&sig=ApkkcAbF2dQkHWlOhV-w533dBVw&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjh08-YnufUAhUIBcAKHY_9BekQ6AEIITAA#v=onepage&q=nagar%20la-bar%20sumerian%20carpenter&f=false

Nirjhar007 said...

HMMM , also I remember this set of Indic words:
lāˊṅgala : (page 639)
m. ʻ plough ʼ, M. nã̄gar, °gor, nāgār, °gor m., Si. nan̆gul, nagala, nagula. -- Gy. eur. nanari ʻ comb ʼ (LM 357) very doubtful. lāṅgalin--. Addenda: lāṅgala--: A. lāṅgal ʻ plough ʼ AFD 237.
lāṅgalikā 11007 lāṅgalikā f. ʻ the aquatic plant Jussiaea repens, Methonia superba ʼ, lāṇgalinī-- f. ʻ M. superba ʼ lex. B.
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.3.soas.1186545
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?beginning=0+&tinput=+langala&trans=Translate

Nirjhar007 said...

n. (ṇaṁgala -- n.m. also ʻ beak ʼ); WPah.bhad. nã̄ṅgal n. ʻ wooden sole of plough ʼ; B. lāṅal, nā° ʻ plough ʼ, Or. (Sambhalpur) nã̄gar, Bi.mag. lã̄gal; Mth. nã̄gano ʻ handle of plough ʼ; H. nã̄gal, nāgal, °ar m. ʻ plough ʼ, M. nã̄gar, °gor, nāgār, °gor m., Si. nan̆gul, nagala, nagula. -- Gy. eur. nanari ʻ comb ʼ (LM 357) very doubtful.
lāṅgalin -- .

Kyriakos Samelis said...

In Halloran's Lexicon (ed. 2006), entry 'nagar', there is a meaning 'carpenter's chisel'.
nagar = "carpenter's chisel (like nagar mu-sar zabar, 'stylus for inscribibg, in bronze's); carpenter; craftsman who built furniture, doors, boats (cf. Akk. naqaru(m), 'to demolish, scratch, hew out, carve, engrave, naqqarum, 'chisel', cf. Orel & Stolbova #1556 *qara' - 'cut') [NAGAR archaic frequency 168; concatenation of 2 sign variants]."

About langala / langula, here it is said that the dissimilation is from l > n:
https://books.google.gr/books?id=hTwuFUW5aEgC&pg=PA144&lpg=PA144&dq=l%C4%81%E1%B9%85g%C5%ABl%C3%A1+tail&source=bl&ots=iBjzq8b0e_&sig=wgOHzoBTJtcx0bk9ynyn6UMp04Y&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjmndKa7OnUAhXiLMAKHcr5ANAQ6AEIOTAE#v=onepage&q=l%C4%81%E1%B9%85g%C5%ABl%C3%A1%20tail&f=false

Here an Austrasiatic origin is implied:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phallus
What do you think about it Nirjhar?

Nirjhar007 said...

Nah I am not convinced on an Austric origin on this :). I remember I talked with Giacomo about langala/langula and he suggested also a cognate in Latin . Unfortunately , I can't re-refer it at the moment.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

'nagar' also in Ethiopic (Ge'ez) means 'speech' and 'thing'; just like Hebrew 'dabar':
https://books.google.gr/books?id=MOAaGydZKhEC&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=nagar+word+thing+speak+ethiopia&source=bl&ots=1IIcmxQKKw&sig=qNftm-UXfbZxvroQ6NdcJcE1GXs&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjwgPrdhuvUAhVDC8AKHXrBCXAQ6AEIMDAC#v=onepage&q=nagar%20word%20thing%20speak%20ethiopia&f=false

Perhaps this Ethiopic nagar is connected to Sum. niĝir (Emesal libir) and Akk. nagiru "(town) crier, herald". Then, we could have nagar / labar and then labar / dabar (l/d).
This proposedroots derivation is like the one above, connecting nagar and tpel- for 'city' (pur-, polis etc, maybe also Etruscan spur).
In case of an IE root which could fit perhaps to Hebr. dabar I could propose (not sure though) the root for 'spell' https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/spell
Here a l/r equation is used, also a s/d, like DBR/SPL.

Kyriakos Samelis said...

In case of nagar 'carpenter, carpenter's chisel' etc, that process could lead perhaps also to Sum. tibira, tebiru, tabira 'metallworker, coppersmith, joiner' (Halloran, 2006) and the IE connection to *dhabh-, we have already discussed (like Latin faber etc); also, Halloran has a word tibir 'carving knife'.

Nirjhar007 said...

So I re-talked ;) and he says perhaps with Latin lingua "tongue," also "speech, language," from PIE root *dnghu- "tongue."
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=language
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0361

Nirjhar007 said...

And of course this is connected(?) :
Proto-IE: *leigh-
Meaning: spoon
Slavic: *lъžьkā, *lъžīcā
Latin: ligula f. `Löffel'
Celtic: *leighā: MIr liag `Löffel', Cymr llwy `Löffel', Corn lo `Löffel'; Bret loa `Löffel'
Russ. meaning: ложка
References: WP II 400 f
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+671&root=config
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ligula
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=*leigh-&allowed_in_frame=0
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1149

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