Another possible connection with Linga this time , I think limb can be connected and it is also interesting that linga derivatives can also mean limb and tail etc in some languages in S Asia , see : liṅga 11051 liṅga1 n. ʻ characteristic attribute ʼ MaitrUp., ʻ penis ʼ Mn. [In latter sense same as, or infl. by *liṅga -- 2 (s.v. *likka -- ) from which prob., as emblem of Śiva, came the meaning ʻ attribute ʼ] Pa. liṅga -- n. ʻ mark, penis, vulva ʼ; Pk. liṁga -- n. ʻ sign, penis ʼ; S. liṅu m. ʻ limb ʼ; L. liṅg f. ʻ leg ʼ; P. liṅg m. ʻ limb, leg, penis ʼ; WPah.rudh. liṅuṇī ʻ tail of sheep or goat ʼ (X lambana -- : cf. *lēṅga -- s.v. *liṅga -- 2). .
This is the suggestion on limb : http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=limb https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/limb#Etymology_1
Now, I think lingua was a false track, yesterday I replied while I was walking ;) The root had many changes, and it seems that the origin is ligh- 'to lick', so dnghw- should not be more original than ling(h)w-, even if Old Latin had dingua (probably already a variant). It remindes the case of *leg- and *deg-> to take.
But about laṅgala 'plow', we must consider laṅga 'lame, limping', also in Persian leng (like Timur-leng, Timur the lame). Pokorny gives a root *leng 'to bend oneself; to sway'. This is a good meaning for the plow, which was bent and swaying. There are Balto-Slavic and Albanian cognates, but we can consider also Latin languere 'to be weak' (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=languid&allowed_in_frame=0). However, the closest parallels are in Balto-Slavic, Albanian and Persian. The same root explains Skt. lāṅgūla 'tail': something swaying.
About the root *sleg of languere, there is also the connection to Sum. sil 'to split', sila 'cut (of meat); fragment; street', silaĝ 'a seed funnel', silig 'ax', compared by Giacomo to Skt. sīla and sīra 'plough', Old Norse, sila 'to trace a furrow' and ancient French silier 'to plow', modern French sillon 'furrow'; also Latin silex, silicis 'flint', used to cut > it's on the list, New Indology, here: http://new-indology.blogspot.gr/2015/05/sumerian-and-indo-european-surprising.html
About Greek there is legein "to leave off, stop," and lagnein "to lust". I think I've compared Sum. silig 'cease, stop' with Gr. legein λήγειν already at Giacomos first Sumerian post, lagnein must be connected to these Indic words mentioned (about penis etc).
Yes Kyriakos and thank you , these sets of words i.e. linga,langala,langula etc were considered by many scholars to be of non-indo-european origin , but as we are finding ,they are very likely indo-european! .
I wonder if there could be also a connection with nagara 'city' (I mean like urbs and urvare, the marking of the limits of a city by ploughing etc). Well, I guess not.
I wonder also if, at least in some cases, the 's mobil' could be due to a contracted form of an entire syllable, like for example, in this case from sel- or sil- > sl- (something like the *TK roots from 'TeK-' for example, see Kloekhorst's paper).
I know you do ;) For example in Greek there is a word ἀσελγής aselges "licentious, wanton, brutal, lascivious, lewd" which could be connected too (the root should be something like **(H)selg instead of *sleg):
I remembered also a word λέγος legos 'lewd'. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dle%2Fgos
Also ἐλεγαίνω elegaino 'to be wrathful, wanton, violent.' http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*e%3Aentry+group%3D74%3Aentry%3De%29legai%2Fnw
*skel reminded me of a Sum. word sukkal 'vizier' - not that I'm sure if it is connected with this root; yet, it must have something to do with words like lagar / labar or nigir etc. I've found this interestin paper (F.A.M. Wiggermann, An Unrecognized Synonym of Sumerian s u k k a l, "Vizier"):
I'm not sure at all, yet it reminded me a byzantine term, an officer called 'sakellarios', meaning something like 'treasurer'; that is from Latin 'sacellum':
That reminds of a word of persian origin, which in Greek is transliterated as sagandes or sangandes 'messanger': http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text;jsessionid=60F7AE53B4BD5F8D5F09BC0A06B2C3CE?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*s111%3Aentry+group%3D1%3Aentry%3Dsagga%2Fdhs
Which I don't know if is related to Gr. 'angelos', supposed also to be of an oriental origin (if it does, could the 's' have been dropped?). On Giacomo's list there is also a Sum. word sanga 'priest'; anyway, 'priest', 'vizier', 'civil servant', 'secretary' and 'messanger' must be all what a 'sukkal' is, as it seems.
There is also uzga 'cella, shrine, goods, treasure, treasury'. The entries at ePSD: sukkal [SECRETARY] (3469x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Ebla, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. sukkal "secretary, civil servant" Akk. sukkallu
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/e5022.html
uzga [TREASURE] (480x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. uz-ga; uz-ga-še3; uzugx(KA); uz-ga-ta; uzug; uz3-ga; us-ga-ne; us-ga; uz-ga-ne; uzugx(|AN.ZAG|); usagx(|U.ŠA|); sausagx(|U.ŠA|); sausagx(|U.ŠA|)ki "cella, shrine; goods, treasure; treasury" Akk. sagû; sukku
What do you think about this Sum. word: gulgul [STONE] (34x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. na4gul-gul "a stone", "a type of stone"
compared to these words you've compared, from this site (August 16th):
https://www.facebook.com/groups/126696954194312/
"Greek χάλιξ (khalix) "small pebble," Latin calx "limestone, lime (crushed limestone), small stone," cognates to Sanskrit karkara ''stone , limestone '' ? . Other Indic reflexes are for example : Pk. kakkara -- m. ʻ stone, pebble ʼ; S. kakiro m. ʻ stone ʼ, °rī f. ʻ stone in the bladder ʼ; L. kakrā m. ʻ gravel ʼ; A. kã̄kar ʻ stone, pebble ʼ; B. kã̄kar ʻ gravel ʼ, Or. kāṅkara, kaṅ°; Bi. kãkrāhī ʻ gravelly soil ʼ; OAw. kāṁkara ʻ gravel ʼ; H. kã̄kar, kaṅkar, °krā m. ʻ nodule of limestone ʼ, kã̄krī, kaṅk° f. ʻ gravel ʼ; G. kã̄krɔ m. ʻ pebble ʼ, °rī f. ʻ small pebble, sand ʼ, kākriyũ ʻ abounding in pebbles ʼ, n. ʻ stony field ʼ; M. kaṅkar m. ʻ pebble, gravel ʼ. . Source for Indic words : http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/…/philologic/contextualize.pl… Skt. śarkarā, which is interesting to be considered together with Latin calculus, as regards its meaning and possible suffix . In Monier-Williams the comparison given is : ''karkara mf(%{A})n. (perhaps connected with %{karka}) hard , firm Gi1t. Ma1lati1m. Amar. ; m. a bone L. ; a hammer L. ; a mirror L. (cf. %{karphara}) ; N. of a Na1ga MBh. i , 1561 ; (%{as} , %{am}) m. n. stone , limestone (esp. the nodule found in Bengal under the name of Kan3kar W.) , Satr. ; a species of date L. ; [cf. %{karaGka} , %{zarkara} ; Gk. $ , $ ; Lat. {hallus} , &79800[256 ,1] {calx} ; Hib. {carraice} ; Gael. {carraig} W. {careg}.] ''."
Obviously Sum. gulgul is a redupicated form; Skt. karkara is a reduplicated form, too; Bomhard had compared karkara with words like κράτος kratos 'power, strength' etc or english 'hard' etc. There is also Sum. gul (wr. gul; gu-ul) meaning "to destroy; to break; to flatten; to carve, cut; to engrave". This perhaps could fit to words meaning gravel or pebble etc, though of course here we have a different vowel (a); a root kal- reminds also the Latin word 'calamitas', calamity.
Another similar root is this one: Number: 1005 Root: k̂orkā (k̂rokā?), -elā English meaning: gravel, boulder German meaning: `Kies, Kiesel'? Material: Ai. śárkarā (śárkara-ḥ) `Gries, Kies, Geröll, Sandzucker'; gr. κρόκη kroke, κροκάλη krokale` Kieselstein'; vielleicht hat ein *κορκάλα [korkala]: śarkarā erst nach κρέκω kreko`schlage' Umstellung zu κροκάλη erfahren.
(BTW Gr. χάλιξ khalix had been compared also to Sum. kalag 'powerful, strong' and kalaga "a stone"; and Gr. χ (kh) fits better to Sum. k than g, as we have said.)
There is also another Gr. word γυλλός gyllos, which is supposed to be a kind of cuboid or tetragonal (sacred) stone, used during the processions / sacrifices in honour of the god Apollon Delphinios in Miletus:
As for the meaning of Sum. gul as "to engrave", perhaps we could make a comparison with this (from Bomhard):
64. Proto-Indo-European *k’el-/*k’ol-/*k’l- ‘to cleave, to split’ (extended form: *k’l-ew-bº-/*k’l-ow-bº-/*k’l-u-bº- ‘to cleave, to split’): Proto-Germanic *kleuƀanan ‘to cleave, to split’ > Old Icelandic kliúfa ‘to cleave, to split’; Old English clēofan ‘to cleave, to split’; Old High German klioban ‘to cleave, to split’. Proto-Germanic *kluƀōn ‘cleft, rift’ > Old Icelandic klofi ‘cleft, rift’; Old Frisian klova ‘chasm’; Old High German klobo ‘snare, trap’. Greek γλύφω [glypho] ‘to carve, to cut out with a knife; to engrave’; Latin glūbō ‘to remove bark from a tree, to peel away bark’.
(BTW Gr. χάλιξ khalix had been compared also to Sum. kalag 'powerful, strong' and kalaga "a stone"; and Gr. χ (kh) fits better to Sum. k than g, as we have said.)
Obviously the connection of something hard to the strong is there.
Sum. gul as "to engrave" perhaps can be related to *ghel ''to cut'' also : http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=geld&allowed_in_frame=0 https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0638
I think that *kel ("cut" etc) could be also connected to another Sum. word halam, wr. ha-lam; gel-le-eĝ3 "(to be) bad, evil; to forsake, forget; to destroy" Akk. halāqu; lapātu; lemnu; mašû. (the form gel-le-eĝ3 is Emesal).
There is also Sum. hala, wr. ha-la; hal "inheritance share" Akk. zittu. This could be also connected to the same IE root (here, cut = share), I think.
For example, in Greek there κλῆρος klêros "a lot, that which is assigned by lot, an allotment, a farm, an inheritance; also (in Christianity) the clergy", from the same root:
From Proto-Indo-European *kleh₂-, from *kelh₂- (“to hit, cut down”). Cognate with κόλαφος (kólaphos), Latin clādes, Scots holt (“a wood, copse. thicket”), North Frisian holt (“wood, timber”), West Frisian hout (“timber, wood”), Dutch hout (“wood, timber”), German Holz (“wood”), Icelandic holt (“woodland, hillock”), Old Irish caill (“forest, wood, woodland”), Albanian shul (“door latch”).
In Sumerian, there is also a word hulu, wr. hul; hul3 "to destroy; (to be) bad-smelling, maloderous; (to be) bad, evil; (to be) slight, lightweight; (to be) false; (to be) criminal, dishonest; enemy; to raid; to strike the eyes; blinker, winker, one with vision problems" Akk. abātu ša īni; bēšu; lapātu ša īni; şabru; lemnu; masku; qallu; sarru; zāmânû.
maybe these two words hul(u) and gul about detruction, bad, evil etc are of the same root. Hesychius has a word γυλομενος gylomenos "destructive, lethal"
In Hebrew there is also a word nahala "inheritence": http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5159.htm
Interesting, yes, "half" comes from Germanic halbaz, with dubious etymology, maybe from * *(s)kel of a similar root, but there is an interesting suggestion here about a comparison with Uralic, especiall the meaning "bad" in Estonian (reminds of Sum. hulu):
"Unknown. Possibly from Proto-Indo-European *(s)kelH- (“to cut”) through a sense ‘divided’ or from a stem *ḱol-bʰo- cognate with Lithuanian šalìs (“side, strip of land”).[1] Alternatively, a recent theory suggests borrowing from Proto-Finnic *halpa, *halba- (“cheap, reduced”) (compare Finnish halpa (“cheap”), Estonian halb (“bad”)).[2]
And the Greek word χᾰλεπός reminds me the Persian word kharâb 'to ruin , to destroy ,to spoil'. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AE%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%A8_%DA%A9%D8%B1%D8%AF%D9%86
Which is borrowed from Arabic ḵarāb 'ruin ,desolation ,waste' and used also in Indic languages .
See here a nice collection : https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AE%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%A8#Arabic
Concerning Arabic harb, Hebrew kherev "sword" etc, another similar IE root is, I think, the root of "carve" (*gherb- "to scratch" etc); which is also the root of Gr. γράφειν graphein "to scratch, to write".
also as γανάω ganao = "to shine, glitter, gleam, of metals, Hom.: then, like Lat. nitere, to look bright, of garden-beds, Od." http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dgana%2Fw
Yes it looks good :) . The Greek word is of unknown etymology right? . This IE root comes in mind though. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/candeo#Latin http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=candle&allowed_in_frame=0
Well, it's not clear if its initial meaning is "to make glad" or "to make bright"; they say that it comes from an IE root meaning "to be glad" (the same of Latin gaudeo):
From Proto-Indo-European *geh₂widéh₁yeti, from *geh₂u- (“to rejoice”). Cognate with gaudium, Gāius, Ancient Greek γηθέω (gēthéō), γαίω (gaíō), γάνῡμαι (gánūmai), γαῦρος (gaûros), γάνος (gános), Middle Irish guaire (“noble”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gaudeo#Latin
Maybe this Gr. word (ganoo / ganymai ) is found in "Ganymede" or "oregano".
On the other hand, the form of Sum. gunu reminds me of Turkish gün, meaning "sun" or "day": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/g%C3%BCn
Etymology in Starling: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=+170&root=config
Here the IE root of Starling is this one: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+400&root=config
Also, this suggestion of yours about "candle" I find quite interesting!
Yes, I agree; also, since the root of gaudeo / γαίω (gaíō) / γάνῡμαι (gánūmai) is *geh₂u-, “to rejoice”, "to shine" (?), perhaps we have a root with an -n extension and secondary with a -d one (something like ga-n-d); on the other hand the root of "candle" is *kand (with k) and this looks a Germanic rendering (g>k). This type (gand- / kand-) reminds the Sum. banda for "child" (which could be also analysed as ba-n-d-, I think); and I remember a type kanda in a Dravidian tongue. Yet, about the proposed comparison with Sumerian gunu, we have a different vowel here (u instead of a).
In Halloran's Lexicon (I haven't found in ePSD) there is another similar Sum. word, bun(2), bu(7): n., lamp, light; blister; bag-type of bellows; rebellion (hollow container + nu11, 'lamp' ?). v., to be swollen; to blow; to shine brightly (cf., bul, 'to blow; to ignite'). This perhaps could be compared to this IE root (with an -n extension):
A question is whether this root bʰeh₂- is connected (maybe as a pre-IE archaic root) to the one I've posted above (*gʷhai-,), like fore example gʷh > bh.
I checked at Mayrhofer's Lexicon; he has this root as (s)kand -in Indic as (s')cand- ; he mentions also the opinion of H. Hirt about a root (s)kwe(n)d giving also Gr. σποδός spodos "ashes" (of a fire); of uncertain derivation. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dspodo%2Fs
This proposed root *(s)kwe(n)d [or maybe (s)kwen(n)(d) ??] reminds also the root *ken-, kenə-, keni-, kenu- 'to rub, scrape, scratch off; ashes':
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0909
Not sure about it, but maybe it fits with the meaning of "gunu" as some additional strokes (scratches?) on the clay-tablets (giving an altered meaning to the signs).
A question is whether this root bʰeh₂- is connected (maybe as a pre-IE archaic root) to the one I've posted above (*gʷhai-,), like fore example gʷh > bh.
I think its possible :) .
Not sure about it, but maybe it fits with the meaning of "gunu" as some additional strokes (scratches?) on the clay-tablets (giving an altered meaning to the signs).
and I'm also a bit influenced by my mother tongue here, because in Greek we have a verb χαράζει kharazei, meaning "it incises", used also (metaphorically speaking) as "to dawn". http://www.wordreference.com/gren/%CF%87%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%AC%CE%B6%CF%89
On the other hand, for the meaning "multicolour" we have also as example this other root peyḱ- (we have discussed about it before), meaning "to hew, cut out, to stitch, embroider, sting, (by extension) to paint, mark, color."
I mean, there is a connection between (multi)coulouring and stitching etc (like in Gr. ποικίλος poikilos). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AF%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
kinda [BARBER] (10x: Ebla, Old Akkadian, Old Babylonian) wr. kinda "barber, hairdresser" Akk. gallābu
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e3007.html
Maybe compared again to a meaning like 'scratch' or 'scrape / rub' (about hair, maybe using a comb?).
In Greek there is a verb κνάω knao "scrape, grate, scratch" etc. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkna%2Fw
From this root *ken 2. ken-, kenə-, keni-, kenu- 'to rub, scrape, scratch off; ashes' https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0909
Not exactly sure, but I think that the form of Sum. kinda looks like a word κνίδη knide (meaning "nettle" in Greek, of the same root *ken), with cognates like Proto-Germanic *hnītaną (“to tear”), Latvian knidet (“to itch”), and Middle Irish cned (“wound”) through an earlier form *kneyd- ( <*ken).
So, perhaps a connection with a meaning "barber, hairdresser" is not impossible, since it could indicate the use not only of a comb but also a knife or razor, I think.
Proto-Slavic/kǫsati Etymology Per Vasmer, derived from *kǫ̑sъ (“piece”); but per Trubachev, the noun is derived from the verb. Cognate with Lithuanian ką́sti (“to bite”) (1sg. kándu), Latvian kuôst (“to bite”) (1sg. kuôžu). Possibly cognate with some or all of Ancient Greek κνώδων (knṓdōn, “knife, blade, prong”), κνώδαλον (knṓdalon, “wild beast”), Old High German hantag (“sharp, cutting”), Sanskrit खादति (khā́dati, “to chew, to bite”), Persian خاییدن (xâyidan, “to chew”), Old Armenian խածանեմ (xacanem, “to bite”). Per Derksen, from Proto-Balto-Slavic *kanˀd-, from which a Proto-Indo-European root such as *k(ʷ)end- or *k(ʷ)enHd(ʰ)- can be constructed. to https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/k%C7%ABsati
The meaning here is mostly about cutting or even biting / chewing, though.
So, perhaps a connection with a meaning "barber, hairdresser" is not impossible, since it could indicate the use not only of a comb but also a knife or razor, I think.
Akkadian gullubu means also "to shave" http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=941&language=id http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=4759&language=id
It is interesting that in Bomhard's Nostratic connects these AA words (like gallābu etc) with this IE root of Pokorny (2. g̑hel- 'to cut?'), which in Sanskrit gives a familiar word for "plow". https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0638
It's only that Bomhard has two similar nostratic roots: one with a meaning "to cut" and another "to scratch, to scrape". But in both of these the corresponding IE sub-root is *ghel.
Nirjhar, a last thing for today: We have this root *2. g̑hel-? ; which looks like the other g̑hel of Pokorny ( 1. g̑hel-, and ghel-?, also as i-, u-, or n-stem; g̑helə-, g̑hlē-, g̑hlō-, g̑hlə- 'to shine, glare, glow; gold, yellow, bright color' ) https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0637
Could this indicate that the meanings of "brightness" and "sharpness" are connected at the minds of ancient people?
If so, can we recall Sum. gunu again here? We could think perhaps of an ancient root gVl / gVn (l/n?). There is at least a similar root in form and meaning with *ken: that is *ghen- 'to grind, crack open, gnaw to pieces' https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0648
Therev is also a Sum. word kin [GRIND] (2x: Old Akkadian, Old Babylonian) wr. kin2 "to grind" Akk. ţênu; also another kin [SICKLE] (140x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. urudkin; gin; kinx(|ŠE.KIN|); urudŠU.KIN "sickle" Akk. niggallu, maybe there is also here a connection with the *ken root.
In Foxvog's Sum. Glossary there is this word: kikkin(HAR), kíkkin(HAR.HAR) millstone, grinding slab Cf. géme-kikkin grinder, miller (some read kínkín or kinkinx, others read àr-àr (OB); vars. kikken, na4kikkin-na (see Civil, AuOr Suppl. 22, p. 131f.)
Considering the meaning of kin "grind" and kikkin (< kinkin?) as millstone; also about these possibly related types "gan-d- / kan-d-" and ken / ghen-, as we have encountered already, I think there could be another possible comparison with these words of Hesychius:
· πυροί / gandoma = pyroi (pyroi means "wheat, grains of wheat") · ἄλευρα / gandomen = aleura (aleura means "wheat, wheat-meal")
One could imagine that there is a root "gand-" also for grinding. A question which one could pose is whether there is some connection also to the root of "grind" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/grind
On page 5 it mentions a word τολύπη: "An example is Greek τολύπη [tolype] “clew, ball of wool for spinning” and the clearly related Luwian/Hittite taluppa/i “lump, clod”. Both the Greek and Anatolian words lack Indo-European etymology and should be seen as non-Indo-European words that entered the Greek and Luwian/Hittite vocabulary."
I think it could match Sum. dilib "hair, lock of hair" (since it initial meaning in Greek is "wool for spinning"; Sum. dilib also I assumed it could be related to Farsi zulf "loch of hair".
Btw, these word of Hesychios for "wheat" etc in Greek are γάνδομα gandoma and γανδόμην gandomen.
Yeah I find that comparison quite good :). About that paper, it is useful but again ignores the deep relation IE has with the languages of Near East-West Asia . Most of the Academia don't want to see Proto-Indo-European as bringers of Civilization but conquering barbarians .
Well, I think we can keep trying a bit more with our IE comparisons regardless of these bias... ;)
About Sum. gam [CROOK] (33x: Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. ĝeškab; ĝešgam3; ĝešKIN "shepherd's crook, bent stick; haft, hilt" Akk. gamlu; šikru; we have met this word before at Giacomo's Sumerian posts, comparing it also to other languages' words meaning "bent", "curve" etc.
Specifically about the meaning "haft, hilt" I think we can also make a comparison with this root of Pokorny: *gem- 'to grasp, grip; be full'
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0562
like in Gr. γέντο gento (<gem-to) = "he grasped". http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dge%2Fnto
There is also a Gr. word. γάγγαμον gangamon, meaning "small round net for catching oysters", which must be from the same root (Chantraine and Pokorny make reference about that), so perhaps it could be from a duplicated gam- "take, grasp" (something like gam-gam > gangam-).
There are not Indo-iranian cognates in this root; but here we can also think about a possible connection to the g̑em(e)- root (for wedding, like Gr. γάμος gamos, γαμετή gamete, γαμβρός gambros etc we have been discussing of), which give words in Skrt. like jamatar etc...
Maybe there was initially a meaning "curve" or something like, then "grasp, hold, take", then "grasp, take a wife" > so "marry, unite"; we have also in Sumerian geme "woman sclave", which also looks like the root for woman (gwen-) etc (a writing of Sum. gam is also KIN, and the labiovelars like gwa etc could be seen as products of a de-palatalization process, maybe...)
It's nothing weird in such procedures, I think; in Greek there is γεμόω gemoo meaning "to fill", also γέμω gemo "to be full", probably from the same root *gem- 'to grasp, grip; be full'); this shift of meaning is due to the loading, mainly of ships (γόμος gomos means "cargo" of a ship), so here we have a meaning "grasp" (the burden) > "fill" (the ship, with cargo), then "to fill" generally etc.
Hi Nirjhar, I made some other thoughts tonight about the possible relations between the roots. For a start, in Doric Greek (of Sicily), the word for "woman" is γάνα gana (while in Attic is γυνή gyne and in Boetian βανά bana).
This gan- for "woman" (< *gwen-) resembles also to the already mentioned root of "to rub, scrape, scratch off" (*ken); also the assumption of a connection with the *gem- 'to grasp, grip" and "g'em-" ("to marry"; like "taking hold of a woman") and all the consequent meanings of "union", "bonding", "pairing" etc made me think again of this Sum. word again:
kad [TIE] (20x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. kad5; kad4; kad6; kad8 "to tie, gather (in ETCL "to bind together"); to itch, scratch; to weave a mat?" (Akk. harādu "to fit together, fabricate?"; harāsu "to itch, scratch"; kaşāru "to tie, knot") We have encountered it at Giacomo's Sum. posts. It suddenly made me think of Gr. κῆδος (kêdos), meaning "taking care", but also "connection by marriage" (like "to tie, to bind").
Note that another word for "take care" is κομέω komeo in Greek > hence κόμη kome "hair" (meaning "cared hair)", like κομήτης kometes "comet" = "hairy star"), also κομμωτής kommotes (masc.) or κομμώτρια kommotria (fem.) "hair-dresser"; and since for Sum. kinda (= hairdresser) I assumed a connection with *ken "to scratch, cut", then inevitably I remember also Sum. kad meaning both "to tie, to bind together" and "to itch, scratch".
BTW, they connect this Gr. word κῆδος kedos (or κᾶδος kados in Doric) to the root of English "hate", which does very little sense to me (in fact it means exactly the opposite).
Yes very agreeable again :) . Do you think this can be added? :
com- word-forming element usually meaning "with, together," from Latin com, archaic form of classical Latin cum "together, together with, in combination," from PIE *kom- "beside, near, by, with" (compare Old English ge-, German ge-). The prefix in Latin sometimes was used as an intensive.
Before vowels and aspirates, reduced to co-; before -g-, assimilated to cog- or con-; before -l-, assimilated to col-; before -r-, assimilated to cor-; before -c-, -d-, -j-, -n-, -q-, -s-, -t-, -v- assimilated to con-. http://www.etymonline.com/word/com- http://www.etymonline.com/word/con- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/%E1%B8%B1%C3%B3m
Yes, I think it can be added :) Gr. κατά kata looks also like kad (kata is used for compounds like κασσύω kassyo (καττύω kattyo) meaning "stitch together" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dkassu%2Fw and κῆδος (kêdos) could be from some other source; and as I noted I think also that Gr. ξύν xyn is a Sanskrit like type of this root *kom, maybe because of an archaic "thorn cluster" -TK- (like TK-M/N > KS-M/N); maybe also this Sum. word kad is connected to some "thorn cluster" (kad, like KT- < TK), perhaps a TK like in Sum. tuku ("to acquire, to get, to marry), possible of same origin with the IE *tkei.
We were discussing also about Sum. kad with other proposals at Giacomo's second Sumerian post (30 December 2015). Another root similar to *ken (maybe also kad?) is I think in Greek the root of πένθος penthos "grief" etc. From Proto-Indo-European *kʷendʰ-; cognate with πάθος (páthos) and πάσχω (páskhō). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%AD%CE%BD%CE%B8%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek That resembles also to the root *(s)kʷe(n)d of Hirt (which is mentioned by Mayrhofer) for "ashes" > σποδός spodos (ken is also for ashes, like in Gr. κόνις konis.). I suppose that "ashes" and "grief" are connected because people put asges on their heads to express their grief. The same perhaps is for "scratch" (of their faces, in funerals), maybe also the tearing (of clothes). κῆδος kedos is also connected to funeral and grief (κηδεία kedeia means funeral in modern Greek), though the initial meaning is "care" etc (also marriage union). Likewise, *kʷendʰ- could be connected to the root of bind *bʰendʰ- (πενθερός pentheros means "father in law" in Greek, and Frisk says it is very close to the root of πένθος penthos "grief"; though the meaning is difficult to fit here). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/b%CA%B0end%CA%B0- I think though it could fit to a meaning of relatives etc, maybe because grief (or caring) is found among relatives and families mostly.
Yes I think its correct to suggest that with 'attachment / being close/being with' comes love,joy but also sorrow and pain (also acquiring ,catching and of course joining/building) . And also being in association produce differentiation (cutting,tearing,breaking etc,you can't break,cut something if you are not in some kind of contact/connection with it first) . I am now even thinking, what if the root for 'producing,to beget etc' is also from the same concept : https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/genus#Latin http://www.etymonline.com/word/*gene-
The root g̑em(e)- 'to marry' is also very close: https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0564
This root is given by Bomhard as: "B. Proto-Indo-European *k’em-/*k’m̥ - (secondary o-grade form: *k’om-)‘(vb.) to join together, to unite (in marriage); to wed, to marry; (n.) the one who is married, son-in-law’: Sanskrit jāmí-ḥ ‘related (brother or sister)’, jā́mātar- ‘son-in-law (daughter’s husband)’; Avestan zāmātar- ‘son-inlaw’; Farsi dāmād ‘son-in-law’; Greek γαμέω ‘to marry’, γάμος ‘wedding’, γαμβρός ‘son-in-law’; Latin gener (for *gemer) ‘son-in-law’; Lithuanian žéntas ‘son-in-law’; Old Church Slavic zętь ‘son-in-law’; Albanian dhëndhër, dhëndhri, dhëndhurë ‘son-in-law, bridegroom’. Pokorny 1959:369—370 *ĝem(e)- ‘to marry’; Walde 1927—1932.I:574—575 *ĝem(e)-; Mann 1984—1987:396 *ĝəmros; Watkins 1985:19 *gemə- and 2000:26 *gemə- ‘to marry’ (oldest form: *gem™-); Mallory—Adams 1997:369 *ĝemhx- ‘to marry (from the male point of view)’ and 533 *ĝomhx-ter- ‘son-in-law’, *ĝm̥ mhx-ro-s, *ĝm̥ -ro-s ‘son-in-law’, *ĝemhxto-s ‘son-in-law’; Mayrhofer 1956—1980.I:430; Boisacq 1950:140 and 140—141; Chantraine 1968—1980.I:208—209 and I:209; Frisk 1970— 1973.I:287 and I:287—288; Hofmann 1966:54; Huld 1984:58—59 *ĝamH- ‘to marry’; Orël 1998:82; De Vaan 2008:258 *ǵ(e)m-ro- ‘son-inlaw’; Walde—Hofmann 1965—1972.I:590—591 *“em(e)- ‘to marry’; Ernout—Meillet 1979:270; Fraenkel 1962—1965.II:1301; Smoczyński 2007.1:779 *ǵn̥ hù-C; Derksen 2008:543—544 *ǵenhù-ti-."
He also compare with it this Sum. word: "Sumerian dim ‘band, binding; rope, cord; knot’, dim-ma ‘to tie together, to fasten, to bind’, dim-má ‘band, rope, cord’."
Perhaps you've noticed that in Greek γέντο "gento" = "he grasped" (root *gem - gen-to, meaning "she grasped", turned to be gen-to "she became pregnant" and then this gen- was used also in present tense as a new verb "to beget, to produce" etc...
There is also the possibility of a comparison with Sum. dam [SPOUSE] (2104x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. dam "spouse" Akk. aššatu; mutu; which you have noticed that it looks like Gr. δάμαρ damar "a wife, spouse" (said by some to be connected to δαμάζω damazo "to overpower" or to δόμος domos (latin domus) and *dem etc.
here we have also Sum. dim [CREATE] (2109x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. dim2 "to create, make, manufacture; to replace?; to bring forth?" Akk. banû. We have talked about that in Giacomo's Sumerian posts.
I meant before that γέντο 'gento' (gem-to < *gem 'to grasp, grip; be full'), meaning he / she grasped ( = ἔλαβεν 'elaben') ) is also in Greek a shortened form of ἐγένετο, 'egeneto' ("he bacame, he was born, produced etc < gen-to) which is from gignomai γίγνομαι (< *ǵenh₁-).
In Greek we use also a term συνέλαβεν "syneleben" = "she seized" (the sperm) to mean "she became pregnant".
Maybe it was then *ǵenh₁- < *gem-, perhaps first 'gem-to' became 'gento' and then this gen- was used also in a specific meaning for 'beget' etc as *gen- in present tense; perhaps it had also to do with the meaning of *gem "full" (as it is the case of a womb in pregnancy).
Hi Nirjhar, I think Sumerian dim ‘band, binding; rope' etc looks like this root: *deh₁- 'to bind'(mostly in Greek and Sanskrit), but without the final -m (or, rather, with a larygeal instead of it).
Maybe in IE an archaic root similar (or the same) with Sum. dim "bind, rope" etc was used to specify the taming (of animals etc), I mean this root: demh₂- 'to tame, domesticate'.
Like for example in Old Irish damnaid (“bind, subdue”). Maybe also *deh₁- retained the meaning ;bind' but it lost (?) its m (not sure about that).
There are also another similar Sum. verb dab [SEIZE] (8723x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. dab5; dab; dab5-dab5; dabx(|LAGAB×GUD|) "to seize, take, hold; to bind; to envelop, overwhelm; to choose (by extispicy); to accept; to take charge of" Akk. sahāpu; tamāhu; kamû; şabātu.
The next comparison I don't know if makes good sense ...
Yet, if Bomhard is right about the connection of the root *gem(e) or *k’em-/*k’m̥ -,*k’om- (as it has it) for "united in marriage, join together" (of gamos etc), with Sum. dim ‘band, binding; rope' etc, we can imagine (using this g/d alteration) a possible comparison of Sum. dab "to seize, take, hold; to bind; to envelop" etc, with this root:
*keh₂p- "to seize; to grab" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/keh%E2%82%82p-
or maybe this one: *gʰeh₁bʰ- or *ǵʰeh₁bʰ- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/g%CA%B0eh%E2%82%81b%CA%B0-
One could notice also that Sum. gam "shepherd's crook, bent stick; haft, hilt" has also a writing "(ĝeš)kab" [the other ones beeing (ĝeš)gam3 and (ĝeš)KIN].
Another Sum. word is dur [BOND] (28x: ED IIIa, Old Babylonian) wr. dur; gidur "binding, knot, bond, tie; umbilical cord; rope" Akk. abunnatu; markasu; ţurru.
About Gr. τοπεῖον / τοπήϊον topeion ("rope, cable" etc - BTW the word "cable" is from Lat. capulum < capio https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cable), it is said that it's connected to Gr. τόπος topos, meaning "a place, location, position, office" etc. The etymology of τόπος topos is unknown.
The meaning "to take charge of" fits perhaps to the meaning of "office" (?).
So, I guess (τοπάζω topazo :D ) that a "topos" is something you can hold of (or maybe it is firm ?); like a specific location or region, a position, an office etc. At least to this interpretation leads the similar form of topeion "rope, cable" (something that binds firmly, holds together" etc).
The etymology of δάρκες darkes is unknown, yet δέσμαι desmai is of the same root with δεσμοί desmoi; δεσμός desmos means 'band, bond, anything for tying and fastening' etc, which is from δέω deo "bind" < *deh₁- 'to bind'.
Hi Nirjhar, maybe there is a variation with d (?) instead of dh (like **der or something like), perhaps connected to the root of "tree" (*deru-, *dō̆ru-, etc) :D.
I remember we were talking about *dher before (at Giacomo's first post), it was about Sum. durun "sit, dwelling etc" and Skt duroNa "dwelling", dhAraNA "supporting, bearing", also Gr. thronos "seat" etc.
Some think that the following Greek word belongs also to the "*dher-" root: θώραξ thorax "corslet, coat of mail, cuirass" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B8%CF%8E%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%BE#Ancient_Greek
θώραξ thorax looks also like 'doraka'; and it has been compared by some with Skt. dhAraka "container" etc). http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=dhAraka&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
I think that if a meaning about "bind" could be added to the "support, hold" of this root, this comparison could stand much better.
Besides, I remember that Sum. banda means also 'stanchion, support' (and it reminds the IE root of "bind") :P.
I mean about θώραξ etc; the other view is that it is a pre-Greek word: "Probably a Pre-Greek substrate loan, hinted by the suffix -αξ- . Cognate with θύραξ (thúrax), Mycenaean Greek (to-ra-ke), and possibly Latin lorico." https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B8%CF%8E%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%BE#Ancient_Greek
lorico is here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lorico#Latin
(From lōrīca + -ō) lōrīcō "I armour (someone) with a lōrīca quotations (post-classical, by extension) I clothe (someone) in a cuirass, breastplate, corslet, coat of mail, hauberk, or other such armour protecting at least the torso (transferred sense) I cover (something) with a coating, I plaster."
lōrīca is here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lorica "Latin, literally "a corselet of thongs", from lorum (“thong”). (historical) A cuirass, originally of leather, afterward of plates of metal or horn sewed on linen or the like."
and lōrum is here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lorum#Latin
"Possibly from an extinct, but Proto-Indo-European substrate language; or, possibly for *vlōrum, from Proto-Indo-European *wel- (“to turn, wind, round”), the same root of volvō. Confer with Ancient Greek εὔληρα (eúlēra, “reins”), Old Armenian լար (lar). meaning: thong (leather strap), reins of a bridle, whip, lash, scourge, girdle, slender vinebranch"
this last opinion (from *wel), it;s also in Pokorny: u̯lē-ro-, u̯lō-ro-, u̯lə-ro-: gr. εὔληρα, dor. αὔληρα Pl. `Zügel', ἄβληρα · ἡνία Hes. (*ἐ-, ἀ-ϝληρο-), lat. lōrum `Riemen', lōrica `Kettenpanzer' (`Riemenpanzer'), arm. lar `Strick, Schnur, Bogensehne, Muskel', vgl. oben S. 1139.
Now, doraka meanss also "rope, strap of leather". Could we have a situation like d/l here? And what about *wel?
There is also the possibility of some words with initial g- (or k-) being older than the ones with initial d-, with the same form, like, let's say Sum. gurum for "dwelling" and Sum. durun with almost the same meaning (maybe g > d?). Take for example in kwel/ kwer and the ones you have already posted > Proto-Nostratic root *k’w¦ar- (~ *k’w¦ǝr-) / Proto-Afro-Asiatic: *ḳʷar- meaning block of houses, settlement, town, and Dravidian Kannaḍa kūr ‘to sit down’, kūrisu ‘to cause to sit’; Telugu kūr(u)cuṇḍu ‘to sit, to be seated’ (kur- > dur- ?).
That of course lead us again to our favourite word nagara :D.
I remembered also that Giacomo, when mentioning that in Pāli nagara means'fortress, fortified city', and in Khotanese noγor 'fortress, castle', made a reference to dṛḍha 'firm; stronghold', as an exaple of the motion "firmness" (for the stronghold).
BTW, for the other dari [ETERNAL] (100x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. da-ri2; da-ri; du-ri "(to be)eternal" Akk. dārû "lasting, eternal", that you have connected to Lat. durare, from Proto-Indo-European *deru-, *drew- (“hard, fast”) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/durus#Latin and durare etc - you've said also Sanskrit dRDha ''firm,stiff,rigid,steady'', also Lithuanian drutas "firm,"Welsh derw "true,"
This is the root of the "tree": http://www.etymonline.com/word/*deru-
I think there is also a comparable Gr. word δηρός deros (or in Doric δαρός daros) meaning "too long" (concerning time); yet the etymology here seems to be a bit different:
From Proto-Hellenic *dwārós, from Proto-Indo-European *duh₂rós, *dweh₂rós (whence Old Armenian երկար (erkar), Sanskrit दूर (dūrá, “far”), Latin dūrus, Avestan (dūrāt̰), (dūirē)), from *dweh₂- (“long”) (whence δήν (dḗn), Latin dūdum).
I agree on that :) There is also a word δροόν droon = ἰσχυρόν ischyron (neuter) (meaning "strong") in Hesychius; maybe also the word Dorian (Δωριεύς Dorieus) could be from this root (Pokorny says it is from Δωρίς Doris "wild land, land of the trees" - the Dorians were one of the four Greek tribes, the Spartans were Dorians), yet it could mean just "strong, hard etc".
Another thought I made yesterday (which may concern also nagara - having in mind a possible nigir / libir alteration, as it happens in Sumerian) is that a kind of dher- element could be found also in the word for "free" (eleu-ther-os < Hleu-dher-os; though the traditional Pokorny root is given as *leudh- https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1190 ; I thought, as you remember, that it could mean a people well protected or something like (in a stronghold maybe).
If you remember also Sum. libir means "(to be) old, long-lasting" (Akk. labāru); perhpaps it could mean also initially "durable".
Some observations for today: I've noticed there is a Sum. word dartar [TIED] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. dar-tar "(to be) tied".
This seems to me as a reduplication of a dar-, as it is likewise the case with the Greek word for "tree", that is δένδρον dendron or δένδρεον dendreon (in Homer). From Proto-Indo-European *der-drew-, from *dóru (“tree”); so we have der-drew > den-drew- (you have also compared "tree" with Sum. tir "forest, wood").
Also, about dóru (or derew(o)-) it is stated in Wikipedia: "Some argue that it is a deadjectival noun of *deru-, *drew- (“hard, firm, strong, solid”) with reflexes as Latin dūrus (“hard, rough”), Old English trum (“strong, firm”) and Ancient Greek δροόν (droón, “strong, mighty”)."
So, perhaps we have a similar construction here (dar-tar, like der-drew-); obviously a tree is "fixed" and not exactly "tied", yet it could be considered as "tied (by its roots) to the ground", so I think the meaning "tie" fits well to the meaning "firm, hard, strong, solid etc here.
Another think that I observed concerning Sum. dari, wr. da-ri2; da-ri; du-ri "(to be) eternal" Akk. dārû "lasting, eternal", is that one of its writings (da-ri) is the same with the writing of Sum. uru = "support" (yet Sum. dari "support" is written differently). That probably means that both Sum. dari "support" and dari "everlasting, eternal" share the same origin with Sum. uru "support".
Concerning uru, I've noticed from Wikipedia that the Tocharian cognate for *doru is just "or" (wood), without a "d". Maybe it's not just a coincidence. From here:
So, perhaps we have a similar construction here (dar-tar, like der-drew-); obviously a tree is "fixed" and not exactly "tied", yet it could be considered as "tied (by its roots) to the ground", so I think the meaning "tie" fits well to the meaning "firm, hard, strong, solid etc here.
I find it quite convincing Kyriakos :) .
Concerning uru, I've noticed from Wikipedia that the Tocharian cognate for *doru is just "or" (wood), without a "d". Maybe it's not just a coincidence.
The Tocharian evidence makes it quite possible , yes ! :) .
Hi Nirjhar, I've made some other observations today and I'd like to have your opinion about them. About this root *leudh- or *Hleudh-, I've checked at Mayrhofer for rodhati "to grow" etc "From Proto-Indo-European *h₁léwdʰeti (“to grow”). Cognate with Old English lēodan."
For example, rodhas means "shore, bank, dam"; also rodha "barrier, check, blocading, shore, impeding, attacking, suppressing, surrounding, besieging, preventing" etc. Mayrhofer says it is also from the same root *leudh-; he's referring to a celtic word arlludd "obstacle". He also says the several cognates are difficult to be separated among the two meanings.
Mayrhofer also thinks about a variation of this root as *Hleugh (for some ROH words):
That could be closo to this Khotanese word noγor that Giacomo was talking about (considering a n/l alteration). But not at all sure about that (it's because I'm searching all the possibilities about the nigir / libir alteration, and here I saw an intermediate "ligir", let's say).
In Greek the word for barrier / obstacle etc is different; but there is a similar word ἐρείδω ereido about "support" etc, meaning "cause to lean, generally, fix firmly, plant, prop, prop up, support, stay, press hard, attack, push, thrust, intr., press hard, set to work, fall to, become fixed" etc with uncertain etymology:
It has been also compared to Latin ridica https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ridica I think that a hypothetical root for this word could be something like **Hreid; and if we consider a l/r evolvement, like in Sanskrit, then this could be quite close to *Hleudh-.
That could be closo to this Khotanese word noγor that Giacomo was talking about (considering a n/l alteration). But not at all sure about that (it's because I'm searching all the possibilities about the nigir / libir alteration, and here I saw an intermediate "ligir", let's say).
I find this possible yes :) .
It has been also compared to Latin ridica https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ridica I think that a hypothetical root for this word could be something like **Hreid; and if we consider a l/r evolvement, like in Sanskrit, then this could be quite close to *Hleudh-.
Nirjhar, what about the IE root for "red" (*Hreudh-)? This also seems to be close to *Hleudh-, I think. We have also the comparison with Sum. urudu "copper, strong" . Maybe *Hreudh- is a Sanskrit-like modification of *Hleudh- (?), to indicate the colour of this "strong" metal.
Nirjhar, what about the IE root for "red" (*Hreudh-)? This also seems to be close to *Hleudh-, I think. We have also the comparison with Sum. urudu "copper, strong" . Maybe *Hreudh- is a Sanskrit-like modification of *Hleudh- (?), to indicate the colour of this "strong" metal.
You know , I was actually thinking about this and you have written it down! :D
So, *Hleudh- meant perhaps "strong" (with a meaning of "obstacle" - like a dam or fortifications - then "rise, grow, people" and then "free"
The meanig of rodhas as "shore, bank, dam" is interesting (also of rodha as "barrier, blocading, shore, impeding, attacking, suppressing, surrounding" etc). The notions are again for "firm" and "strong", indicating perhaps the river-sides; and you have said that cities usually are near rivers (I'm thinking again about nagara).
In Greek I remembered this word: ἄνδηρον anderon (neut.)"raised bank by the side of a river or ditch, dike ... mostly in plural, ἄνδηρα, (τά) andera (ta), also meaning "border, edge, of the sea", "border (for plants etc)". I made this reference because it reminds me δηρός deros, for long lasting, but as you've said perhaps the first meaning here is for 'hard,fast,rigid'. The etymology is uknown and even if there is a connection to δηρός, I'm not sure what the ἄν- an- part is for...
Very interesting proposals again ! :) . About aNDIra 'man,strong,full male' chances are good that it comes from aNDa ' an egg , a testicle ; the scrotum ; the musk bag ; semen virile' http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=aNDa&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
From a discussion I came to know about aNDa : As for aNDa, its origin is a bit dubious. One of hypotheses says it is a kind of "Prakritic-like" development of antra "entrails" or "something which is within". But still there are other ideas about that, keeping in view that aaNDa with long "a" in the beginning (also meaning "egg") is quite an old word, from Vedic times. To my knowledge, the only possible cognate for that is Slavic (esp. Russian) yadro "nutmeat". For "egg", nearly all European IE languages have lexemes derived from the root for a "bird". ovum (Lat.), o(w)ion (Gk.), also Germanic and Slavic forms. ....also in Iranic languages, with initial laryngeal! https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82%C5%8Dwy%C3%B3m
There is also a Gr. word, fit for a meaning "enclosure", that is μάνδρα mandra “enclosed space, stable”; perhaps cognate with Skt. mandurā f, "stable for horses, bed" etc.
About nagara as "temple", and the possibilities of forms like labar etc, there is also the hypothesis of Giovanni Garbini for a comparison of "debir" (Holy of Holies of Solomon's Temple) with "labyrinth" (λαβύρινθος), written in Linear B as da-pu-ri-to ; perhaps we could imagine nagar- / labar- (n/l) and dabar (l/d). See also here:
Hi Nirjhar, The main reason I made a reference to these words for enclosure is that a parallel root *Hleugh-er (for *Hleudh-er) made me think about a possible relation of *dher- with the *gher- root (about enlosure, also city, house etc). I'm not sure if this works that way, though.
Hello Nirjhar, I was thinking that Indic "anda" could be from a root similar to *ken -but without the initial "k". For example, the word "nut" is from this root (*ken):
From this *ken (to pinch, press, etc) there is also Skt. kanda "bulb etc". I've compared also the other *ken root ("to rub, scrape, scratch off; ashes") toSum. "kinda"; kanda belongs to this root:
Since in Greek the word κνίδη (knide), "nettle" is from this other root *ken, I was thinking about a Gr. word which resembles knide but without the "k-", meaning also something like "nut"; more precisely it's about the meaning "testicle":
This could be perhaps a root similar in form to the one of Gr ἀδήν(adḗn) "gland" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CE%B4%CE%AE%CE%BD#Ancient_Greek
I remember also that in Sumerian the word for "egg" is "nunuz"; and nu or ni is about strenght, man and virility (I'm not sure if it is connected).
From this *ken (to pinch, press, etc) there is also Skt. kanda "bulb etc". I've compared also the other *ken root ("to rub, scrape, scratch off; ashes") toSum. "kinda"; kanda belongs to this root:
Since in Greek the word κνίδη (knide), "nettle" is from this other root *ken, I was thinking about a Gr. word which resembles knide but without the "k-", meaning also something like "nut"; more precisely it's about the meaning "testicle":
Hi Nirjhar, thanks for your supporting comments ;)
In Halloran's lexicon I've noticed this Sum. word (not found in ePSD): kínda[URI]; kindax[LAK-419]: a type of vessel for measuring barley or holding water.
Since it seems to be a (semi-)spherical object, I thing it could be related to this *ken root of Pokorny, too.
In Pokorny there are these words (in *ken root): kondo- `Geballtes' ["spherical, clenched, accumulated"]:ai. kanda- m. `Knolle' "bulb, tuber], kandúka- m. `Spielball' [ball for games], kanduka- n. `Kissen' [pillow]; gr. κόνδοι kondoi· κεραῖαι. ἀστράγαλοι ["horns", "vertebrae"] Hes., κόνδυλος kondylos` Knochengelenk der Finger, Knebel, Faust, Ohrfeige, etc [knockle, toggle, joint of the finger-bones, gag, fist], also κονδύλωμα kondyloma `Geschwulst' [tumor]; lit. kánduolas m. `Kern' [kernel] etc.
In Starostin the root is *kond http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+++563&root=config
In Greek I recalled also this word: κόνδυ kondy, (Gen. -yos, neut.) = drinking-vessel; (also) as a measure.
I think that it could be connected to this Sum. kinda. Maybe the name of this famous vessel is connected too (perhaps through Greek) :) http://www.etymonline.com/word/gondola http://ewonago.blogspot.gr/2013/02/etymology-of-gondola.html
Look also here for the IA (and Greek) words: https://books.google.gr/books?id=iLS9CwAAQBAJ&pg=PA357&lpg=PA357&dq=%CE%BA%CF%8C%CE%BD%CE%B4%CF%85%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%82+greek+etymology&source=bl&ots=ecbLLdMPeC&sig=e27MCogcn4eCdA5zcNadYE899VY&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiM66q-4P_WAhWBL8AKHTkHB5oQ6AEISDAE#v=onepage&q=%CE%BA%CF%8C%CE%BD%CE%B4%CF%85%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%82%20greek%20etymology&f=false
According to Halloran's lexicon, kínda[URI]; kindax[LAK-419]: "a type of vessel for measuring barley or holding water" has the same writing with Sum. uri, wr. uri "a vessel"; and a strange thing is that another uri, wr. uri4 means "an illness of the joints, arthritis?; an illness" Akk. maškadu; šannadu [I said strange, because of the meaning of kondylos (look above)].
But the most strange thing is that the writing "uri" is transliterated also as "akkadu", that is "Akkadian".
About the etymology of Akkad, in wikipedia it is said:
"The etymology of the name is unclear, but not of Akkadian (Semitic) origin. Various suggestions have proposed Sumerian, Hurrian or Lullubean etymologies. The non-Akkadian origin of the city's name suggests that the site may have already been occupied in pre-Sargonic times, as also suggested by the mentioning of the city in one pre-Sargonic year-name.[4]
About the possible loss of an initial k- (like in anda / kanda, maybe due to kind of lenition?), I think we can compare also these Sum. words (ninda or inda):
ninda [VESSEL] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. dug.ninda2 "a measuring vessel" Akk. namandu; parsiktu cuneiform DUG.NINDA₂ wr. dug.ninda2 (inda).
Also Sum. ninda [BREAD] (11296x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Ebla, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. ninda; inda "bread; food" Akk. akalu [1] cuneiform GAR ninda [2] cuneiform NINDA₂ inda
Most probably because of their spherical object, one assumes (like anda etc). So, we must study about this kand / kond / kund words in IE tongues, I guess.
Yes , perhaps some relation with Sanskrit maNDala also (?) : http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=maNDala&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
also kuNDala : http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=kundala&direct=se
and of Course kuNDa : n. [%{as} m. L.] , a bowlshaped vessel , basin , bowl , pitcher , pot , water-pot Ka1tyS3r. MBh. &c. ; a vessel for coals R. v , 10 , 16 &c. ; a round hole in the ground (for receiving and preserving water or fire cf. %{agni-kuNDa}) , pit , well , spring or basin of water (especially consecrated to some holy purpose or person) MBh. R. &c. ; m. an adulterine , son of a woman by another man than her husband while the husband is alive Mn. iii , 174 ; (see. %{gola} and %{-golaka} below) ; N. of S3iva MBh. xii , 10358 ; of a Na1ga MBh. i , 4828 ; of a son of Dhr2ita-ra1sht2ra MBh. i , 4550 ; (%{A}) f. ( %{kuND}) mutilation Pa1n2. 3-3 , 103 Ka1s3. ; N. of Durga1 L. ; (%{I}) f. (Pa1n2. 4-1 , 42) a bowl , pitcher , pot Hcat. Prasannar. ; (%{ami}) n. ifc. a clump (e.g. %{darbha-k-} , a clump of Darbha grass) Pa1n2. 6-2 , 136 ; a particular measure L. ; N. of certain mystical figures ; a particular appearance of the moon (surrounded by a circle) VarBr2S. iv , 15. [http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/scans/MWScan/tamil/index.html] http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=kuNDA&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
There is also Sum. kunda "bowl, pot" etc http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=kunda&direct=au
Also kunta or kuntha / kunta / kuntala with such meanings like "stupid, bowl, hair, lance, plough" etc http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=kuntha&direct=au
Look about that on page 362 of the link I've just posted (Adriano V. Rossi's article).
κοντός kontos means also "pole" in Greek, also "short" (kondos) http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=konto%2Fs&la=greek&can=konto%2Fs0
In Byzantine Greek κοντάριον kontarion means "spear" (it is κοντάρι kondari in Mod. Greek). http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkonta%2Frion2
It appears kuNDa is related to '' kuND cl. 1. P. %{kuNDati} , to mutilate Dha1tup. ix , 37: cl. 1. A1. %{kuNDate} , to burn ib. viii , 17: cl. 10. %{kuNDayati} , to protect ib. xxxii , 45''
Turners suggestion is perhaps that its from Dravidian , but it looks to be more widely shared :)
About κόνδυ kondy, it must be a loanword (from Persian or IndoIranian in general), I checked at Hesychius and he says kondy = ποτήριον βαρβαρικόν, κυμβίον - poterion barbarikon = barbarian glass; ποτ- pot- < from root of "drink"; κυμβίον kymbion must be also a loanword, like Sktr. kumbha: http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=kumbha&direct=se
There is also a Gr. word κάνθαρος kantharos, a type of ancient Greek cup used for drinking. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kantharos
According to the lexicon of unknown etymology; maybe a pre-Greek word. Kantharos means also "dung-beetle"; the connection between the two meanings is not evident: http://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/tools/pottery/shapes/kantharos.htm
About Kumbha TOB says this : Proto-IE: *kumbh-, *kumb- (kh-) Nostratic etymology: Nostratic etymology Meaning: a k. of vessels Old Indian: kumbhá- m. `jar, pitcher' Avestan: xumba- m. 'Topf' Other Iranian: NPers xumb, xum 'Topf, Krug' Old Greek: kǘmbǟ f. `Trinkgefäss, Becken, Schale', kǘmbo-s m. (/ kǘmbos n.) `Hohlgefäss, Schale' Celtic: MIr comm `Gefäss', cummal `Becher, Schale', Bret komm `Trog' Russ. meaning: сосуд References: WP I 370 f, Buck 28. http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+580&root=config
From Mallory's oxford PIE book p.239 :
Much solider are the correspondences that suggest *kumbho/ eha- ‘bowl’ (e.g. OIr coim ‘pot’, Grk ku´mbe¯ ‘bowl’, Av xumba-‘pot’, Skt kumbha´-‘pot’) which are found from Ireland to India although its derivation, either from *keu- ‘bend’ or possibly a loanword into Proto-Indo-European, is disputed.
About Greek κοντάριον , Sanskrit kaNTa this seems to be related :) :
Greek kentron "sharp point, goad, sting of a wasp," from kentein "stitch," from PIE root *kent- "to prick" (source also of Breton kentr "a spur," Welsh cethr "nail," Old High German hantag "sharp, pointed").
http://www.etymonline.com/word/center See also : https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0921 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/center#Etymology https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%B5%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%AD%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
BTW Kyriakos , do you think κυμβίον can be related to the suggested PIE root by Mallory and TOB? :)
It could be; the traditional etymology is from *(s)kamb root: https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1719 (kymbe κύμβη is the feminine form) Also another root (s)k̑em- means "to Harm, Injure, Damage, Horn 'deformed, disabled, mutilated; hornless": https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1733
But I'm more interested in types with -nth- (-νθ-), which are thought to be generally "pre-Greek" (like labyrinthos λαβύρινθος etc); it has been also suggested that they're part of a Minoan "adstratum"; so, I'd like to know if they're connected to Indo-Arian words (as you have sayd there is a theory that Minoan is a Sanskrit like language).
Mayrhofer suggests nothing; he mentions that its origin is unclear and a proposed "indo-mediterranean" substrate origin (together with Gr. ἄκανθα akantha "thorn, prickle") cannot be proven; akantha is here: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Da)%2Fkanqa (btw it has been suggested that *ak is perhaps one of the roots connected to akantha). Mayrhover mentions also another suggestion of Bur (from an older *kantaka, connected to Gr.κεντέω kentéō); he mentions a "sangleci" [probably an iranian?] word kandag "thorn", which could be from an iranian *kantaka (in Sims-Williams), if it's not an indoarian loanword.
There is another Gr. word about "spherical" (or such) objects: κανθών kanthon "A.corner of the eye, 2. poet., eye, II. tyre of a wheel, III. chimney, Hsch. IV. pot, pan, Id. (Lat. cantus (in signf. 11) is said to be African or Spanish by Quint.1.5.8.).
BTW Hesychius says that kanthos is the "circle of the eye" and the "blowing of the smoke in chimneys" (maybe it's the circular shape of the smoke?) and "chimney" only according to some.
Another word is κάνθων kanthon "pack-ass" (maybe an allusion to a meaning "dull, stupid"?)
About kanthon ,kanthos Kyriakos , IMO Sanskrit kaNTha has some resemblance due to the shape of the neck ,throat etc : 1 kaNTha m. (%{kaN} Un2. i , 105) , the throat , the neck (cf. %{A-kaNTha-tRpta} ; %{kaNThe} %{grah} , to embrace Katha1s.) ; the voice (cf. %{sanna-kaNTha}) MBh. BhP. &c. ; sound , especially guttural sound W. ; the neck (of a pitcher or jar) , the narrowest part (e.g. of the womb ; of a hole in which sacrificial fire is deposited ; of a stalk &c.) Sus3r. Hcat. Katha1s. &c. ; immediate proximity Pan5cat. ; Vanguiera Spinosa L. ; N. of a Maharshi R. ; (%{I}) f. neck , throat L. ; a rope or leather round the neck of a horse L. ; a necklace , collar , ornament for the neck L. http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=kaNTha&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
But it seems to be from : kaN cl. 1. P. %{kaNati} , %{cakANa} , %{kaNiSyati} , %{akaNIt} , or %{akANIt} , %{kaNitA} , to become small ; to sound , cry Dha1tup. xiii , 6 ; to go , approach Dha1tup. xix , 32: cl. 10. P. %{kANayati} , to wink , close the eye with the lids or lashes Dha1tup. xxx , 41: Caus. %{kANayati} (aor. %{acIkaNat} and %{acakANat} Pat. on Pa1n2. 7-4 , 3) , to sigh , sound ; [cf. %{can} and %{kvan}.]
Halloran has a kinda "a type of vessel", (see http://www.sumerian.org/sumerian.pdf ) but kun-du seems good, too. Maybe it is a kun-d- (like the other possible root gan-d- , gunu about shine etc; btw Sum. kun means also shine)
I wonder if the meaning of Sum. kun [TAIL] (225x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium) wr. kun "tail; canal outlet" Akk. zibbatu could fit also to some *ken root. Maybe through a meaning of "cylindrical", like "round" etc. Not sure about that.
About "kanthon" pack-ass, a similar word I think is Sum. kunga [EQUID] (792x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III) wr. kunga2; kunga; anšekunga2; anše|BAR×AN|; anšekunga "an equid, probably a donkey-onager cross" Akk. parû which seems like a kun with a -ga ending. There is also a kundar, wr. kun-dar "an animal" Akk. šakkadirru Also kungid, wr. kun-gid2 "a description of sheep"
I wonder if the meaning of Sum. kun [TAIL] (225x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium) wr. kun "tail; canal outlet" Akk. zibbatu could fit also to some *ken root. Maybe through a meaning of "cylindrical", like "round" etc. Not sure about that.,
Believe it or not I was also thinking the same few minutes ago :D .
Another word is κάνθων kanthon "pack-ass" (maybe an allusion to a meaning "dull, stupid"?)
Yes possible. :)
bout "kanthon" pack-ass, a similar word I think is Sum. kunga [EQUID] (792x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III) wr. kunga2; kunga; anšekunga2; anše|BAR×AN|; anšekunga "an equid, probably a donkey-onager cross" Akk. parû which seems like a kun with a -ga ending. There is also a kundar, wr. kun-dar "an animal" Akk. šakkadirru Also kungid, wr. kun-gid2 "a description of sheep" .
Mayrhofer says also "not clear" about kaNTha; but I agree that there is a big chance that a meaning "round, cylidrical" etc can give a meaning "neck, throat" and then "sound, cry" etc.
There is also the proposed root of Lat. cantare "to sing", keh₂n- (seems similar to *ken): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/keh%E2%82%82n-
Hesychius has also a word κανθήλιος kanthelios = κάνθων which must be from κάνθων kanthon "pack-ass"; he says it means ὄνος onos "donkey", also μωρός moros "moron". In L.S. "pack-ass, ; ὄνος κ. Hermipp.9, X.Cyr.7.5.11, Pl.Smp.221e, etc.: metaph., ass, blockhead,
Besides, there is another word in Hesychius κανθήλια (kanthelia - plural, neuter), meaning A.panniers at the sides of a pack-saddle, hence, any large baskets, for carrying grapes at the vintage, Hsch.: generally, pack-saddle, κ. καμηλικά kamelika [of camels?] II. wooden frame that rises in a curve at a ship's stern, Hsch. III. sg., κανθήλιον , τό, in Archit.,rafter, IG22.463.73. (Lat. cantherius, Vitr.4.2.3.)
Hesychius says also that Κανθήλια Kanthelia is the name of some mountains in Bithynia (in Asia Minor); and this reminded me another similar word for a mountain, Qendil or Qandil mountains in Kurdistan (I'm trying the Iranian connection :D ).
As for a meaning "cylindrical", the word in Greek (κύλινδρος kylindros) is from κυλίνδω kylindō, “I roll”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%8D%CE%BB%CE%B9%CE%BD%CE%B4%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek The Kyl- (kul-) part is said to be from *skel: https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1729
The rest is unexplained, but maybe it was a ind- like in this Sum. word: inda [TUBE] wr. inda2 "tube". I roll (the tube)... :D
Compared perhaps to this Sum. word: kunu [APPROACH] (4x: Old Babylonian) wr. ku-nu "to approach" Akk. qerēbu "to be/come close"; sanāqu ša nakri "to approach, advance on someone with hostile intent".
In Greek, the most close meaning I can think of (concerning also a *ken root) is a verb κονέω koneo "to run, hurry" etc, mostly found in compound words, as in διάκονος diakonos ("deacon") = messenger, courier, servant; (biblical) minister, deacon. δῐᾰ- (dia-) + Proto-Indo-European *kón-os, from *ken- (“to set oneself in motion”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%CE%B9%CE%AC%CE%BA%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek In Pokorny this is in *ken-4 root 'to strain, strive eagerly'. https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0911 yet not Indic cognates here.
κονέω (of deacon etc) like "run, hurry") in my lexicon is thought also to be connected to the *ken root for "ashes, dust" etc (like "I run" > "I am producing dust"). I was thinking that if Sum. kunu means "approach so to attack the enemy" that causes a lot of dust with all this troops approaching / running.
Another thing: according to a note (in dnghu Pokorny's roots) : "Root / lemma: ken-2, kenǝ-, keni-, kenu- : `to rub, scrape off; ashes' must have come from zero grade of an extended Root / lemma: ā̆s-, therefrom azd-, azg(h)- : `to burn' into ā̆sk-en with the suffix -en. This assumption is proved by alb. geg. (*askini) hini `ash' [common alb. ski- > hi- phonetic mutation]."
That reminded me Pokorny's (s)kand root we were talking about (in Indic as (s')cand-), about words like gan-d etc; Mayrhofer was mentioning also Hirt's opinion about a root *(s)kwe(n)d for Gr. σποδός spodos "ashes" etc. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dspodo%2Fs
Now, since Gr. κόνις konis for "ashes, dust" is connected to κονέω (of "deacon") "rush, hurry, run" etc, I can imagine a "(s)kwe(n)d" like root meaning "harry" etc, that is *spewd and a Gr. word σπεύδω speudo; the noun is σπουδή spoude "haste".
Also about kantha etc, I've noticed at Myrhofer's "Worterbuch" a word kandhara "neck" which perhaps is connected with kantha, according to some, as he says:
He is reffering also to H. Hendricksen's view that kandhara is from an (unatested obviously) *kandha and ultimately from a (vedic) word skandha "shoulder" (the notion again about "round" etc:
So, while I'm not sure if this happened as dnghu says (about *ken for ashes), it seems that there is evidence for a kind of *(s)ken root, possibly also similar to Hirts *(s)kwe/n/d/- root (with a possible th/d alteration).
I was thinking that if Sum. kunu means "approach so to attack the enemy" that causes a lot of dust with all this troops approaching / running.
Yes possible :) .
Also about kantha etc, I've noticed at Myrhofer's "Worterbuch" a word kandhara "neck" which perhaps is connected with kantha, according to some, as he says:
He is reffering also to H. Hendricksen's view that kandhara is from an (unatested obviously) *kandha and ultimately from a (vedic) word skandha "shoulder" (the notion again about "round" etc:
Kandha is attested in Indic yes,but with kh / k and also d/dh : skandhá 13627 skandhá m. ʻ shoulder, upper part of back ʼ AV., ʻ trunk of tree, mass (esp. of an army) ʼ MBh., skándhas<-> n. ʻ branching top of a tree ʼ RV. [Absence of any trace of initial s -- in Kafiri and Dardic supports possibility of IA. *kandha -- beside sk° (unnecessarily assumed in ODBL 438 for NIA. k -- which is dissim. from kh<-> before dh as prob. in Aś. agi -- k(h)aṁdha -- )] Pa. khandha -- m. ʻ shoulder, back, tree -- trunk ʼ, °aka<-> m. ʻ division, chapter ʼ; Pk. khaṁdha -- , ka° m. ʻ shoulder, tree trunk, wall ʼ; Ash. kándä ʻ stem, trunk ʼ, Kt. kə́nē, Wg. kaná; Paš.lauṛ. xānd ʻ shoulder ʼ, ar. kandīˊ, kuṛ. kōn (obl. kānda); Shum. kandam ʻ my shoulder ʼ; Gaw. kandík ʻ shoulder ʼ; Bshk. kān (with rising tone) ʻ shoulder, upper part of back ʼ; Tor. kan ʻ shoulder ʼ, Sv. kandike, Phal. kān, kan; S. kandhu m. ʻ neck, back of neck ʼ, °dho m. ʻ back of neck, edge ʼ, °dhī f. ʻ bank of river ʼ, °dhī pāso ʻ neighbourhood ʼ; L.awāṇ. khaddhā ʻ multitude ʼ, P. khandhā m. ʻ mass, multitude, flock of sheep or goats, herd of buffaloes ʼ, ludh. kannhā m. ʻ shoulder ʼ, (Ambala) kandhā m.; Ku. kã̄d, kã̄dho, kāno ʻ shoulder ʼ, gng. kāni ʻ neck ʼ; N. kã̄dh, kã̄d ʻ shoulder, back ʼ (whence khãduwā, °dilo ʻ heavy, solid ʼ, kãdheuli, khãde° ʻ stick carried by coolies across shoulders to take the weight of a load ʼ); A. kāndh, kān ʻ shoulder ʼ, kandhā, kanā ʻ large bundle of reeds &c. carried on the shoulder ʼ, kã̄dhi ʻ pent house, veranda, eaves ʼ; B. kã̄dh ʻ shoulder ʼ, kã̄dhā ʻ edge, bank ʼ; Or. kāndha, kã̄dhā ʻ shoulder ʼ; Bi. kānhe ʻ on the shoulder ʼ, (Patna) khandh, °dhā ʻ large area of cultivated land ʼ; Mth. kānh, kanhā ʻ shoulder ʼ, Bhoj. kānh, Aw.lakh. kã̄dh; H. kã̄dh, °dhā m. ʻ shoulder ʼ, kandh m. ʻ tree trunk, thick branch ʼ; G. khã̄dhi, kã̄° f. ʻ shoulder ʼ; M. khã̄d, °dā m. ʻ shoulder, back of neck ʼ, f. ʻ large bough ʼ; Ko. khã̄ndhu m. ʻ shoulder ʼ; Si. kan̆da ʻ shoulder, tree trunk, collection, mass ʼ, kan̆du ʻ mountain ʼ (< -- aka -- ). -- With metath. K. nakh, dat. °khas m. ʻ shoulder ʼ? <-> Bshk. khan m. ʻ hill ʼ, Tor. Mai. khān, Chil. Gau. kān (→ Par. khándi IIFL i 265) poss. all < skandhá -- , but prob. like Tor. (Grierson) khaṇḍ ʻ hill ʼ, Phal. khāṇ, khaṇ, Sh.koh. khŭṇ m., gur. khonn, pales. khōṇə, jij. khɔ̈̄ṇ rather < khaṇḍá -- AO xviii 240. -- X maṇi -- 2 q.v. skandhayati, skandhika -- , *skandhiya -- , skándhya -- , *skāndhika -- ; *skandhakāṣṭha -- , *skandhakīla -- , *skandhataṭa -- , *skandhapaṭṭa -- , *skandhavarti -- , *skandhāvara -- , *skandhāvāra -- ; kālaskandha -- . Addenda: skandhá -- : S.kcch. kandh m. ʻ back of neck ʼ, kandho m. ʻ shoulder ʼ; WPah.kṭg. kannh m. ʻ shoulder ʼ, kc. kānh, jaun. kānn m.; kṭg. (kc.) khándɔ m. ʻ big box along the wall of living room for grain ʼ. http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.4.soas.785500 Hindi also has kandha 'shoulder' . https://translate.google.com/#en/hi/shoulder also Bengali : https://translate.google.com/#bn/en/%E0%A6%95%E0%A6%BE%E0%A6%A8%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%A7
So, while I'm not sure if this happened as dnghu says (about *ken for ashes), it seems that there is evidence for a kind of *(s)ken root, possibly also similar to Hirts *(s)kwe/n/d/- root (with a possible th/d alteration).
I am also thinking if : ''Old English sculdor "shoulder," from West Germanic *skuldro (source also of Middle Dutch scouder, Dutch schouder, Old Frisian skoldere, Middle Low German scholder, Old High German scultra, German Schulter), of unknown origin, perhaps related to shield'' http://www.etymonline.com/word/shoulder https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shoulder Is also from the root you say n->l alternation :D
:ο interesting thought! or it would be the opposite (l>n) ? like in dher-dhron > dendron? the origin perhaps is *(s)kel: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/skuldr%C3%B4 but maybe is from *kwel as *(s)kwel-!, (denoting something circular?) I remembered Dziebel's theory again about Slav *pepelu ‘ashes’ (he supposes to be from a double *kwel - do you think it could be (s)kwel- > (s)kwen- ?
In Hesychiys there is also a rare word τόνθων tonthon, meaning the flesh of the spinal / back of an animal; perhaps it could be from a (s)kwenth- root (kweHnth - tonth-)?.
About Proto Germanic skuldro "shoulder", I gave a look at a Celtic Lexicon, and there is a proto Celtic root resembling another one for "shield" but bouth without an "l".
"*skedo- 'wing, shoulder' [Noun] GOlD: aIr. sciath [0 m] 'wing' W: MW ysgwydd [f] 'shoulder' BRET: MBret. scoaz, diou scoaz 'shoulders' CO: OCo. scuid gl. scapula, MCo. dyw-scoth 'shoulders' SEE: *sketo- 'shield' ETYM: OIr. sciath may have the final -th rather than -d because of the influence of the word for 'shield', OIr. sciath < *sketo-. However, it is also possible that sciath 'shield' was borrowed from Brittonic before the lenition of *t > th, and that seiath 'wing' is the original OIr. word for 'shield', with metaphorical change of meaning. The Brittonic words for 'shoulder' then must have a different etymology. REF: LEIA S-44, GPC III: 3851. "
About this initial s-, it's funny that in modern Greek we say for some reason σκαθάρι skathari ("beetle"), σκόνη skoni ("dust") and σκαντζόχοιρος skantzokhiros ("hedgehog"), respectively for the ancient ones κάνθαρος kantharos ("beetle"), κόνις konis ("dust") and ακανθόχοιρος akanthokhoiros ("hedgehog"); maybe the initial s is for euphonic reason.
Now, I have a question about khanati as "trench, excavate, dig, dig up" etc. http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=ia&tran_input=kaNati&direct=se
Its form reminded me an arabic word "khandak" ("trench"), which seems to be a khan- with d and a final -ak. Here it is stated that it may have Persian origin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Trench https://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%87%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%AC%CE%BA%CE%B9
Here that it might be a loanword in arabic from aramaic. http://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/encyclopaedia-of-islam-1/khandak-SIM_4110?s.num=153&s.au=%22Wensinck%2C+A.J.%22&s.start=120
It is borrowed in Greek as χαντάκι khandaki, the most usuall word for "ditch etc" http://www.wordreference.com/gren/%CF%87%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%AC%CE%BA%CE%B9
Also, the venetian word for the island of Crete, "Candia" was taken from this word (because of its fortified capital city named Khandax). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Candia
1 khan cl. 1. P. %{kha4nati} (impf. %{a4khanat} ; perf. %{cakhAna} , 3. pl. %{cakhnur} R. i ; A1. %{cakhne} Pa1n2. 6-4 , 98 ; pr. p. A1. %{kha4namAna} RV. i , 179 , 6 MBh. iii , 1897 ; Impv. %{khanatAt} AitBr. [Pa1n2. 7-1 , 44 Ka1s3.] ; Pot. %{khanyAt} or %{khAyAt} Vop. ; Pass. %{khAya4te} [TS. vi S3Br. iii] or %{khanyate} MBh. xii R. Pan5cat. ; inf. %{khanitum} Pan5cat.) , to dig , dig up , delve , turn up the soil , excavate , root up RV. VS. AV. &c. ; to pierce (said of an arrow) Bhartr2. (v.l.): Caus. %{khAnayati} (once %{khan-} R. ii , 80 , 12) , to cause to dig or dig up S3a1n3khS3r. MBh. &c.: Desid. %{cikhaniSati} Pa1n2. 6-4 , 42 Ka1s3.: Intens. %{caGkhanyate} or %{cAkhAyate} Pa1n2. 6-4 , 43 ; %{caGkhanti} or %{cAkhAti} Vop. [cf. $ , $ , $ ; Old Germ. {gine1m} , {gino1m} ; Mod. Germ. {ga0hne} ; Angl. Sax. {cina} , {cinan} ; Lat. {cuniculus} , {canalis}.]
khaná 3810 khaná ʻ digging ʼ AV. [√khan] K. khan m. ʻ hole, hollow made in grain, breach in a river bank ʼ; Ku. gng. khaṇ m. ʻ digging ʼ; N. khan -- jot ʻ tillage ʼ. http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.1.soas.189962
cane (n.) late 14c., "long slender woody stem," from Old French cane "reed, cane, spear" (13c., Modern French canne), from Latin canna "reed, cane," from Greek kanna, perhaps from Babylonian-Assyrian qanu "tube, reed" (compare Hebrew qaneh, Arabic qanah "reed"), which may come from Sumerian-Akkadian gin "reed." Sense of "length of cane used as a walking stick" is from 1580s.. We already have Sanskrit kaNDa ''[or %{kANDa4} TS. vii] , %{as} , %{am} m. n. (ifc. f. %{A} , or %{I}) [cf. %{khaNDa} , with which in some of its senses %{kANDa} is confounded] a single joint of the stalk or stem of a plant , such as a bamboo or reed or cane (i.e. the portion from one knot to another cf. %{tri-k-}) , any part or portion , section , chapter , division of a work or book (cf. %{tri-k-}) , any distinct portion or division of an action or of a sacrificial rite (as that belonging to the gods or to the manes) AV. TS. VS. ; a separate department or subject (e.g. %{karma-kANDa} , the department of the Veda treating of sacrificial rites Ka1s3. on Pa1n2. 4-2 , 51) AV. TS. S3Br. R. ; a stalk , stem , branch , switch MBh. R. Mn. i , 46 , 48 Kaus3. Sus3r. ; the part of the trunk of a tree whence the branches proceed W. ; a cluster , bundle W. ; a multitude , heap , quantity (ifc.) Pa1n2. 4-2 , 51 Ka1s3. ; an arrow MBh. xiii , 265 Hit. ; a bone of the arms or legs , long bone (cf. %{kANDa-bhagna} and %{pucchakANDa4}) Sus3r. ; a rudder (?) R. ii , 89 , 19 ; a kind of square measure Pa1n2. 4-1 , 23 Vop. vii , 55 ; a cane , reed , ....''
See here also : http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.0.soas.1788724
There is also a possible Tamil kaṇ ʻ joint of bamboo or sugarcane ʼ .
I think this and others can be related ultimately to the root *(s)kel /*(s)ken , (s)kwel- / (s)kwen- ,(s)kwe/n/d/- :D
I am not sure but perhaps this on is a reduplication : https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cuniculus
Yeah, why not :D At least there is a sured attestation for an alteration n/l in kanag / kalag / kalam (for the land of Sumer).
Concerning the meaning "sharp" I remember this word (whith a long o, which seems problematic; nevertheless I'm putting it here): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%E1%BF%B6%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
From Proto-Indo-European *ḱeh₃- (“to sharpen”).
κῶνος (kônos) f pine cone, pine tree, cone or peak of a helmet; (geometry) cone.
He actually lists with the Dravidian ones too : ''Proto-Nostratic (n.) *k’aŋ-a ‘knot, knob, joint’: Derivative of: (vb.) *k’aŋ- ‘to bend, twist, turn, or tie together’; (n.) *k’aŋ-a ‘wreath, rope, cord, fiber, tie, band, string’ ''A. Dravidian: Tamil kaṇ ‘joint in bamboo or cane’, kaṇu ‘joint of bamboo, cane, etc., knuckle, joint of the spine, vertebra’, kaṇukkai ‘wrist’, kaṇukkāl ‘ankle’; Malayalam kaṇ, kaṇu, kaṇṇu, kaṇpu ‘joint in knot or cane’, kaṇavu ‘node of bamboo, cane, etc.’, kaṇakkai, kaṇaṅkai ‘wrist’, kaṇakkāl, kaṇaṅkāl ‘ankle’, kaṇippu ‘articulation of limbs’; Kota kaṇ ‘joint of bamboo’; Toda koṇ ‘joint of bamboo or cane’; Kannaḍa kaṇ ‘joint in reeds, sticks, etc.’, gaṇalu ‘knuckle of the fingers, joint or knot of any cane’, gaṇike ‘knot or joint’; Tuḷu kāra kaṇṇu̥ ‘ankle’; Telugu kanu, kannu ‘joint in cane or reed’, kaṇupu, gaṇupu ‘joint, knot, node (of bamboo, sugarcane, etc.)’; Kolami gana ‘knot in tree’; Naikṛi khan ‘joint in bamboo’; Gondi gana, ganakay ‘wrist’; Kuṛux xann ‘place on bamboo or cane where side shoot was cut away’; Brahui xan ‘knot in wood’. Burrow—Emeneau 1984:110, no. 1160.''
"(s)kwenth- also of course." We have to put this root also *(s)kwey? (-n/th) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/spina#Latin spina: thorn, spine, prickle etc. From Proto-Italic *speinā, from Proto-Indo-European *spey- (“sharp point”).
Note: some add to this list a Gr. noun σπινθήρ spinther "spark" (about the meaning "gleam"). http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dspinqh%2Fr
Most likely from Proto-Indo-European *ski-nto-, from *skey-, *ski- (“to gleam, shine”), which is the source of English shine.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scintilla#Latin
The root of "shine", here:
From Middle English shinen, schinen (preterite schon, past participle schinen), from Old English scīnan ("to shine, flash; be resplendent"; preterite scān, past participle scinen), from Proto-Germanic *skīnaną (“to shine”). Cognate with West Frisian skine, skyne, Low German schienen, Dutch schijnen, German scheinen, Danish and Norwegian Bokmål skinne, Norwegian Nynorsk and Swedish skina.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shine
From Proto-Germanic *skīnaną, from an Proto-Indo-European root *skai-, *ski-. Cognate with Old Frisian skīna (West Frisian skine, skyne), Old Saxon skīnan (Low German schienen), Old Dutch skīnan (Dutch schijnen), Old High German skīnan (German scheinen), Old Norse skína (Danish skinne, Swedish skina), Gothic �������������� (skeinan). The Indo-European root is also the source of Ancient Greek σκιά (skiá), Proto-Slavic *sěnь (Russian сень (senʹ)).
I remember also Skt. "pinda" (denoting spherical object etc), which could be connected, I think, (if we can accept the heretical view about an ancient kwi>pi, or something like):
I think also that a κῶνος konos = "(pine) cone" is an intresting object (for a comparison with *ken), because its form is both sharp and spherical (from the other side of it).
I remember also Skt. "pinda" (denoting spherical object etc), which could be connected, I think, (if we can accept the heretical view about an ancient kwi>pi, or something like):
True :). I think also that a κῶνος konos = "(pine) cone" is an intresting object (for a comparison with *ken), because its form is both sharp and spherical (from the other side of it).
1 piND cl. 1. A1. 10. P. %{piNDate} , %{-Dayati} , to roll into a lump or ball , put together , join , unite , gather , assemble Dha1tup. viii , 21 ; xxxii , 110 (prob. Nom. fr. next).
About piND, Mayrhofer states again "not clear"; he mentions also the many forms of this word, like peDa, peDha, peNDa etc, which have made some people to think about a foreign origin. He makes also a reference to Armenian pind "compact, firm", supposingly from the iranian *pinda, which comes most probably from Sanskrit. Wikipedia has also another etymology (from *bendh-):
Also (since I have mentioned Qandil Mountains), there is a mountain range in Greece called the Pindos Mountains (Πίνδος Pindos, in English Pindus), called often "the spine of Greece", since it runs through the biggest part og the country. Similar is the name of poet Pindar (Πίνδαρος Pindaros in Greek), which seems to be from the same root (though there is no certainty for the etymology). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pindus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pindar
Similar words with "Pindar" in connection to "pind": http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=pindara&direct=au https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pindari
There is no etymology also for Pindos; yet I think that it could have the same source with Armenian "pind"; it could mean for example something like firm or strong (a natural name for mountains); A connection to "spina" (from **(s)pind- is tempting - ; it could remind Gr. spondylos ("vertebra"); a strong part of the body. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%80%CF%8C%CE%BD%CE%B4%CF%85%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
In Greek we use the word rhakhis, another word for "spine" to denote the ridge of a mountain: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rachis
From Proto-Indo-European *(s)pend-, *(s)pen- (“to pull, stretch, spin”). Though I think the root is not so clear;FFor example, here it is mentioned a IE root *(s)penǝ- : https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/spinnan%C4%85
Now, there is a question about the root of the word "sphere" ( < Gr. σφαῖρα sphaira); origin uknown; comparison to Persian sepehr, “sky”); possibly from the root of σπαίρω spairo meaning "gasp, pant, quiver" .
A similar word to σφαῖρα sphaira is σφυρόν sphyron "ankle": http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dsfuro%2Fn
About the persian sepehr = "sky", wikipedia says: "From Middle Persian (spihr), from Old Persian (compare Ancient Greek Σπιθρι-δάτης (Spithri-dátēs), Parthian (ispēr) , or possibly Sanskrit. Compare σφαῖρα (sphaîra)." Yet I don't know which Sanskrit word is meant here.
See also this conversation: https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/sphere-%D8%B3%D9%BE%D9%87%D8%B1.734387/
This Old English spithra "spider" ( > spinthro) reminds Old persian spithra (> sepehr) for "sky". Could the root of "sphere" be related to all the other stuff we were talking about.
There is no etymology also for Pindos; yet I think that it could have the same source with Armenian "pind"; it could mean for example something like firm or strong (a natural name for mountains); A connection to "spina" (from **(s)pind- is tempting - ; it could remind Gr. spondylos ("vertebra"); a strong part of the body. .
This Old English spithra "spider" ( > spinthro) reminds Old persian spithra (> sepehr) for "sky". Could the root of "sphere" be related to all the other stuff we were talking about.
:D Meanwhile, σπαίρω in my lexicon is connected with Skt. sphurati "quiver, palpitate", having also many other interesting meanings like "dart,spurn, shine, gleam, twinkle, glisten" etc:
sphurati is supposed to be from *sperH "to kick" (like "kick the ball") There is also a proto-celtic sɸerā "heel" - from Proto-Indo-European *spérH-eh₂, from Proto-Indo-European *sperH- (“to kick”). Cognate with Germanic *spurą.
English "spear" is also said to be from the same root: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/spear
So, it seems to me that "sphere" and "spear" are connected :D
swell (v.) Old English swellan "grow or make bigger" (past tense sweall, past participle swollen), from Proto-Germanic *swelnan (source also of Old Saxon swellan, Old Norse svella, Old Frisian swella, Middle Dutch swellen, Dutch zwellen, Old High German swellan, German schwellen), of unknown origin. Of emotions from late 14c., of music from 1749. Related: swelled; swollen; swelling. . https://www.etymonline.com/word/swell https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/swell#English
1 sphal (v.l. for %{sphul} , and occurring only with prep. cf. %{skhal}) cl. 1. P. %{sphalati} , to quiver , shake , vibrate , burst , break &c.: Caus. %{sphAlayati} see %{A-sphal}. [Cf. Gk. $ ; Lat. &383405[1270 ,1] {fallo} ; Lith. {pu4lti} ; Germ. {fallen} ; Eng. {fall}.] ............................................................................................. 1 sphar cl. 6. P. %{spharati} , = (and v.l. for) %{sphur} (q.v.): Caus. %{sphArayati} to expand , open or diffuse widely ( below) ; to bend , discharge (a bow) R. ............................................................................................. 1 sphul (later collateral of %{sphur} ; only with prep. see %{ni-} , %{-niH} , and %{vi4-sphul} ; cf. %{sphal}) cl. 6. P. (Dha1tup. xxviii , 96) %{sphulati} (pf. %{pusphola} fut. %{sphulitA} &c. Gr.) , to tremble , throb , vibrate Dha1tup. ; to dart forth , appear ib. ; to collect ib. ; to slay , kill Naigh. ii , 19. [For cognate words see under %{sphal}.] ........................................................................................... 1 sphur 1 (cf. %{sphar}) cl. 6. P. (Dha1tup. xxviii , 95) %{sphura4ti} (m. c. also %{-te} ; p. %{sphurat} and %{sphuramANa} [qq.vv.] ; only in pres. base , but see %{apa-sphur} ; Gr. also pf. %{pusphora} , %{pusphure} ; fut. %{sphuritA} , %{sphuriSyati} ; aor. %{asphorIt} ; Prec. %{sphUryAt} ; inf. %{sphuritum}) , to spurn RV. AV. ; to dart , bound , rebound , spring RV. MBh. Ka1v. ; to tremble , throb , quiver , palpitate , twitch (as the nerves of the arm S3ak.) , struggle Kaus3. MBh. &c. ; to flash , glitter , gleam , glisten , twinkle , sparkle MaitrUp. R. &c. ; to shine , be brilliant or distinguished Ra1jat. Katha1s. Ma1rkP. ; to break forth , burst out plainly or visibly , start into view , be evident or manifest , become displayed or expanded Nr2isUp. MBh. &c. ; to hurt , destroy Naigh. ii , 19: Caus. %{sphorayati} (aor. %{apusphurat} or %{apuspharat}) , to stretch , draw or bend (a bow) Bhat2t2. [1271,1] ; to adduce an argument S3am2k. Sch. ; to cause to shine , eulogize , praise excessively Pan5cad. ; %{sphurayati} , to fill with (inser.) Lalit.: Desid. %{pusphuriSati} Gr.: Intens. %{posphuryate} , %{posphorti}. [Cf. Gk. $ ; Lat. {sperno} ; Lith. &383704[1271 ,1] {spi4rti} ; Germ. {sporo} , {spor} , {Sporn} ; Eng. {spur} , {spurn}.] 2 sphur 2 (ifc.) quivering , trembling , throbbing S3is3. ii , 14. ...........................................................................................
Can you check Manfred , what he has to say on sphal 'swell' .
BTW Pokorny's Kick root seems to be this : https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1847
not sure if this related : https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1845
I was thinking also about the root (*sper) of σπεῖρα speira ("coil, spiral" etc, especially since a word σπάρτον sparton "rope, cable" seems to be close to Sparta, possibly connected to the word for "city" (spur etc); maybe the wall fortifications of the cities were circular; we somehow must return periodically to the root(s) of the "city" (see also the proposed *kwel / *kwer etc for nagara etc).
Of course Sparta had not walls, at least in classical times... :) About σπινθήρ spinther "spark", it is interesting that Hesychius gives also a meaning ἀκοντισμός akontismos, which means the throwing of an ἀκοντιon ακοντιον (javelin). (btw, in modern colloquial Greek the "n" of σπινθήρ is dropped and we say usually σπίθα spitha for "spark".)
phulla 9092 phulla ʻ expanded, blown (of flowers) ʼ MBh., ʻ inflated (of cheeks) ʼ Bālar., ʻ open ʼ (in su -- phulla -- R.), n. ʻ fullblown flower ʼ KālP. [NIA. shows basic mng. ʻ expanded, swollen ʼ rather than ʻ split, burst ʼ assumed in BR. <-> Semant. as ʻ flower ʼ cf. praśūna -- s.v. prasūna -- , and as ʻ white in the eye, cataract ʼ cf. puṣpa -- m. ʻ albugo ʼ Suśr. -- Cf. *phura -- ] Pa. phulla -- ʻ blossoming ʼ; Pk. phulla -- ʻ opened, blossoming ʼ, n. ʻ flower ʼ; Ash. pul ʻ testicles ʼ; Gaw. phul ʻ the white of the eye ʼ (→ Psht. pūl ʻ film on the eye ʼ: but EVP 56 < Av. pūiti -- ); K. aḍa -- phŏlu ʻ half -- blown ʼ, phulu m. ʻ cataract of eyes ʼ; S. phulu m. ʻ flower, the menses ʼ, phulo m. ʻ albugo ʼ; L. phull m. ʻ flower ʼ, awāṇ. phul (and X palāśá -- q.v.); P. phull m. ʻ flower, menstrual flow, white speck in eye (= phollā m.) ʼ; WPah. bhad. phull n. ʻ cataract ʼ, bhal. phulli f. ʻ leucoma of eye ʼ, khaś. phull ʻ blister due to burn ʼ, (Joshi) fūl m. ʻ flower ʼ, fulā m. ʻ cataract ʼ; Ku. phūl ʻ flower, testicle ʼ, phulo ʻ cataract ʼ; N. phul ʻ flower, menstrual flow, egg ʼ, phulo ʻ cataract, white streak in the nail ʼ; A. phul ʻ flower, film on eye ʼ; B. phul ʻ flower, menstrual flow, cataract (= phuli) ʼ; Or. phula ʻ flower, menses, placenta, cataract ʼ, phulā ʻ swelling, inflation, frog spawn, cataract ʼ, phul(u)kā ʻ swollen ʼ; Bi. Mth. Bhoj. Aw.lakh. H. phūl m. ʻ flower ʼ, OMarw. phūla; G. phūl n. ʻ flower, menstrual flow, opacity of eye ʼ, phūlũ n. ʻ cataract ʼ; M. phūl n. ʻ flower, ovary, albugo ʼ; Ko. phūla ʻ flower ʼ; Si. pil ʻ expanded ʼ, pul ʻ open flower, peacock's tail ʼ, pola ʻ cataract ʼ. -- X púṣya -- 1, bhásman -- qq.v. phúllati; *phullataila -- , *phullapūra -- , *phullavāṭikā -- , *phullēndra -- ; utphulla -- , praphulla -- , saṁphulla -- ; *ēraṇḍaphullikā -- , *navaphulla -- . Addenda: phulla -- [But T. Burrow Tau vii 137 < *sphutlo -- , √sphut/ṭ ʻ to bloom ʼ with Pk. ph -- ] S.kcch. phaull m. ʻ flower ʼ, phaullo m. ʻ white speck in eye ʼ, phaullā m.pl. ʻ parched juwar ʼ; WPah.kṭg. (kc.) phūˊl m. ʻ flower ʼ, poet. phulṛu m.; J. fūl. †*phullabhūta -- .
9093 phúllati ʻ expands, opens (as a flower) ʼ MBh. [phulla -- ] Pa. phullita -- ʻ blossomed ʼ; Pk. phullaï ʻ blossoms ʼ; K. phŏlun ʻ to expand, open (as a flower) ʼ; S. phulaṇu ʻ to blossom ʼ, L. phullaṇ; P. phullṇā ʻ to swell ʼ; WPah. (Joshi) fulṇu ʻ to bloom, become old ʼ; Ku. phulṇo ʻ to swell, blossom, become overgrown, grow grey ʼ, phulphulīṇo ʻ to get puffed up ʼ, phulyūṇo ʻ to flatter ʼ (caus. of pass. *phulīṇo); N. phulnu ʻ to swell, blossom, thrive ʼ, phulinu ʻ to be puffed up ʼ (whence phulyāunu ʻ to flatter ʼ); A. phuliba ʻ to blossom ʼ; B. phulā ʻ to swell, blossom ʼ; Or. phulibā ʻ to swell, expand ʼ; Mth. phulab ʻ to blossom ʼ, OAw. phūlaï; H. phūlnā, (with intr. u) phulnā ʻ to swell, blossom ʼ; OMarw. phūlaï ʻ blossoms ʼ; G. phulvũ ʻ to swell, blossom ʼ, M. phulṇẽ. Addenda: phullati: WPah.kṭg. (kc.) phúlṇõ, phúlhṇõ ʻ to blossom, open (of a flower), swell ʼ, caus. kc. phəlauṇo, Wkc. phəleuṇo; -- phúlhṇõ X †*phullabhūta -- . http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.2.soas.1810146 http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=phull&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%81%E0%A4%B2%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B2
I'll check Mayrhofer about sphal-; about "swell", I think that a *swel root could be in Sumerian a word like "zal" and zal, wr. zal, if you recall, means "to get up early; to finish, come to an end; to dissolve, melt, disintegrate, break down, collapse; to quake; to pass time" (Akk. naharmumu; naharmuţu; qatû; râbu); another zal also "shine".
In Greek there are also some words with spha-d- (maybe l/d connected with sphal-?), supposingly connected with the same root of sphere, with a meaning of violent movement etc like σφαδάζω sphadazo "toss the body about, struggle; chafe, be strongly moved or excite" or σφοδρός sphodros "vehement, violent, excessive etc":
I think that a *swel root could be in Sumerian a word like "zal" and zal, wr. zal, if you recall, means "to get up early; to finish, come to an end; to dissolve, melt, disintegrate, break down, collapse; to quake; to pass time" (Akk. naharmumu; naharmuţu; qatû; râbu); another zal also "shine".
Absolutely :) .
In Greek there are also some words with spha-d- (maybe l/d connected with sphal-?), supposingly connected with the same root of sphere, with a meaning of violent movement etc like σφαδάζω sphadazo "toss the body about, struggle; chafe, be strongly moved or excite" or σφοδρός sphodros "vehement, violent, excessive etc'' .
About phul-, there is also Gr. φύλλον phyllon meaning "leaf, petal", connected with φλέω "to abound etc" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CF%8D%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%BD
Such words in phul- etc could be perhaps comparable to some of the Sumerian bul- words (like bul - blow, bul = shake, bulug = a plant, bulug = grow; also a word bulug-KIN-gur means "lancet" (Akk. marşadu - wr. bulug-KIN-gur4).
Concerning also the nigir / libir equation, and the meaning of "free" etc, Lat. god Liber was also a god of agriculture, wine, "libation" etc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liber
"Libation" meanwhile is σπονδή sponde in Greek, σπένδω = to libate: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%B4%CE%AE
Pokorny's root (*spend) here: https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1839 Latin spondeo here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/spondeo#Latin
Btw, another Gr. word for "vehement" etc is λάβρος labros https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BB%CE%AC%CE%B2%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%82
About phul-, there is also Gr. φύλλον phyllon meaning "leaf, petal", connected with φλέω "to abound etc" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CF%8D%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%BD.
Such words in phul- etc could be perhaps comparable to some of the Sumerian bul- words (like bul - blow, bul = shake, bulug = a plant, bulug = grow; also a word bulug-KIN-gur means "lancet" (Akk. marşadu - wr. bulug-KIN-gur4)..
About Sum. buluĝ [GROW] (56x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. buluĝ3; buluĝ5; bu-lu-ug; buluĝ "to grow up, rear, make grow; novice; foster child" Akk. rabû; tarbûtu, and for the meaning "novice; foster child"; do you think a comparison with Skt. bAla "infant, child, naive, girl" , bAlaka "young, boy" is valid? Mayrhofer does not mention this word; he is referring only to bala "power, strength".
In Greek I think there is a similar word: πάλλαξ pallax (or πάλληξ pallex), "youth" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dpa%2Fllac
I don't know anything about its etymology, though; it is almost certain yet that it is connected to παλλακίς pallakis or παλλακή pallake, meaning "young girl, mistress, concubine".
In Greek, I don't know if there is a connection of πάλλαξ pallax with another word πῶλος polos "1.a foal, young horse, whether colt or filly, 2.a young animal, a puppy 3.in Poets, in fem., a young girl, maiden, —more rarely masc., a young man.
I cheched at Mayrhofer's Etymological Lexicon, at SPHAR root - which seems to be coonected also to the SPHAL and SPHUR ones, yet I couldn't find a hint about "swell". There is though a SPHA ( <speH1) root with a word "sphira" (abundant, fat" etc).
do you think a comparison with Skt. bAla "infant, child, naive, girl" , bAlaka "young, boy" is valid?
Good morning Kyriakos and thanks . Yes it does make sense.
In Greek I think there is a similar word: πάλλαξ pallax (or πάλληξ pallex), "youth" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dpa%2Fllac
I don't know anything about its etymology, though; it is almost certain yet that it is connected to παλλακίς pallakis or παλλακή pallake, meaning "young girl, mistress, concubine". Quite comparable :) .
Monier-Williams says this on balAka and bAlaka : ''3 balAkA f. a crane (more usual than %{-ka} m. q.v.) VS. &c. &c. ; a mistress , loved woman L. (Megh. 9?) ; N. of a woman g. %{bahv-Adi}. 4 bAlaka mf(%{ikA})n. young , childish , not yet fullgrown MBh. Ka1v. &c. ; m. a child , boy , youth (in law `" a minor "') , the young of an animal ib. (%{ikA} f. a girl Ka1v. Pur.) ; a young elephant five years old S3is3. v , 47 ; a fool , simpleton L. ; a kind of fish L. ; N. of a prince (v.l. %{pAlaka}) Pur.''
Turner has this suggestion : ''bālá 9216 bālá ʻ young ʼ Gr̥S., ʻ foolish ʼ Mn., m. ʻ boy (under five years old) ʼ Mn., °aka -- adj. and sb. MBh., m. ʻ fool ʼ lex., bālā -- f. ʻ girl (esp. under sixteen years old) ʼ Mn. [Despite the various etymologies listed in EWA ii 426, it perh. belongs to the ʻ defective ʼ group s.v. baṇḍá -- which proprovides, like other ʻ defective ʼ groups, several words for ʻ child ʼ, e.g. *bāḍa -- in Paš. bāṛā ʻ boy ʼ, bāṛī ʻ girl ʼ, *bāḍḍa -- in G. bāḍuvã̄ ʻ poor simple little children ʼ: note esp. the meanings ʻ ignorant, fool ʼ in Pa. Pk.] Pa. bāla -- ʻ ignorant, young ʼ, bālaka -- m. ʻ boy, fool ʼ; Aś. balika f. pl. ʻ women ʼ; Pk. bāla -- , f. °lā -- , bālaa -- , f. °liā -- ʻ young ʼ (cf. bālisa -- ʻ foolish ʼ); Paš.lauṛ. bāl(a)kul m. pl. ʻ boys, children ʼ, nij. bōlū ʻ boy ʼ (→ Par. bâlö IIFL iii 3, 34); Sh. bāl m. gil. ʻ child, servant ʼ, koh. gur. ʻ boy ʼ; K. bāla ʻ young ʼ, m. ʻ boy (16 -- 20 years old) ʼ, bāl, dat. °li f. ʻ girl (of the same age) ʼ; S. ḇāru m. ʻ baby ʼ; L. bāl m., bālṛī f. (Ju. ḇ -- ) ʻ child ʼ, khet. bāl ʻ infant ʼ; P. bālā m. ʻ child ʼ; Ku. bālo ʻ very young ʼ, gng. bāw ʻ boy ʼ, bāi ʻ girl ʼ; A. bāl ʻ infant ʼ; MB. bālā ʻ a youth ʼ, B. bāl ʻ boy ʼ; Or. bāḷa ʻ child ʼ, baḷā ʻ son ʼ, bāḷī ʻ young woman ʼ; Mth. bāri (f.?) ʻ tender, young ʼ; OAw. bāra m. ʻ boy ʼ, bārī f. ʻ daughter ʼ; H. bāl, bār, bālā ʻ young ʼ, m. ʻ child ʼ, bāl, bālī f. ʻ girl ʼ; OMarw. bāla m. ʻ boy ʼ; G. bāḷ n. ʻ child ʼ, bāḷī f. ʻ girl (under 16 years old) ʼ, bāḷũ -- bhoḷũ (< *bhōla<-> s.v. *bhulla -- ) ʻ young and innocent ʼ; M. bāḷ ʻ young ʼ, bāḷī f. ʻ young woman before puberty ʼ; Si. bal ʻ young, stupid, simple ʼ, sb. ʻ child, fool ʼ. -- Ext. -- kk -- (or ← Sk. bālaka -- ): K. bālukh, dat. °lakas m. ʻ boy under ten years old ʼ; WPah. (Joshi) bālak m.f. ʻ babe ʼ; N. bālakha ʻ child ʼ. -- Gy. eur. bālo m. ʻ pig ʼ (< ʻ *young pig ʼ LM 376 with?), pers. baldi ʻ child, boar ʼ? *bālatara -- , *bālatvana -- , *bāladhōtta -- , *bālaputra -- , *bālaprī -- . Addenda: bālá -- . [T. Burrow BSOAS xxxviii 76 derives < IE. *wolo -- ʻ stupid ʼ in OSl. volŭ ʻ ox ʼ] WPah.poet. bāḷ m. ʻ young boy ʼ, kṭg. baḷɔ ʻ young, dear ʼ, baḷi f. ʻ young girl ʼ. †*bālapōtta -- .'' http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.2.soas.1911165
On fool OED says : fool (n.1) early 13c., "silly, stupid, or ignorant person," from Old French fol "madman, insane person; idiot; rogue; jester," also "blacksmith's bellows," also an adjective meaning "mad, insane" (12c., Modern French fou), from Medieval Latin follus (adj.) "foolish," from Latin follis "bellows, leather bag," from PIE root *bhel- (2) "to blow, swell." https://www.etymonline.com/word/*bhel-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fool https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1546 (?) So again there is a suggestive connection with swelling etc . And connection with power as Manfred say may have relevance , for the act of growing,swelling etc.
Foal seems to be a bit different : ''foal (n.) Old English fola "foal, colt," from Proto-Germanic *fulon (source also of Old Saxon folo, Middle Dutch volen, Dutch veulen, Old Norse foli, Old Frisian fola, Old High German folo, German Fohlen, Gothic fula), from PIE *pulo- "young of an animal," suffixed form of root *pau- (1) "few, little." foal (v.) "give birth (to a foal)," late 14c., from foal (n.). Related: Foaled; foaling.''
Hi Nirjhar, thank you also for the comments. Another question I have is about a similar Altaic root; do you think it can be related? (I don't see any Nostratic root though). From ToB:
Proto-Altaic: *bāla Meaning: child, young Russian meaning: ребенок, молодой Turkic: *bāla, *bāldɨŕ Mongolian: *balčir Tungus-Manchu: *baldi- Japanese: *bàràpa(i) Comments: АПиПЯЯ 289. Jpn. low tone (or Turkic length) is irregular. The Western languages all reflect a common derivative *bāl(a)-tV.
2,273 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 2273 Newer› Newest»Another possible connection with Linga this time , I think limb can be connected and it is also interesting that linga derivatives can also mean limb and tail etc in some languages in S Asia , see :
liṅga 11051 liṅga1 n. ʻ characteristic attribute ʼ MaitrUp., ʻ penis ʼ Mn. [In latter sense same as, or infl. by *liṅga -- 2 (s.v. *likka -- ) from which prob., as emblem of Śiva, came the meaning ʻ attribute ʼ]
Pa. liṅga -- n. ʻ mark, penis, vulva ʼ; Pk. liṁga -- n. ʻ sign, penis ʼ; S. liṅu m. ʻ limb ʼ; L. liṅg f. ʻ leg ʼ; P. liṅg m. ʻ limb, leg, penis ʼ; WPah.rudh. liṅuṇī ʻ tail of sheep or goat ʼ (X lambana -- : cf. *lēṅga -- s.v. *liṅga -- 2). .
This is the suggestion on limb :
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=limb
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/limb#Etymology_1
Now, I think lingua was a false track, yesterday I replied while I was walking ;) The root had many changes, and it seems that the origin is ligh- 'to lick', so dnghw- should not be more original than ling(h)w-, even if Old Latin had dingua (probably already a variant). It remindes the case of *leg- and *deg-> to take.
But about laṅgala 'plow', we must consider laṅga 'lame, limping', also in Persian leng (like Timur-leng, Timur the lame). Pokorny gives a root *leng 'to bend oneself; to sway'. This is a good meaning for the plow, which was bent and swaying.
There are Balto-Slavic and Albanian cognates, but we can consider also Latin languere 'to be weak' (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=languid&allowed_in_frame=0). However, the closest parallels are in Balto-Slavic, Albanian and Persian. The same root explains Skt. lāṅgūla 'tail': something swaying.
Thank you very much, yes, I couldn't remember the Latin word and it is languere .
Proto-IE: *lenk(ʷ)-
Nostratic etymology: Nostratic etymology
Meaning: to bend
Slavic: *lǭkъ, *lę̄kǭ, *lę̄ktī, *lǭčītī
Baltic: *leñk- (-ja-) vb. tr., *leñk-mō̃ (-men-) c., *lañk-a- c., *liñk- vb. intr., *lañk-s-t-u-, *luñk-an-a- adj., *lañk-ī̂- vb., *lañk-t-a- m., *luñk-[a]- m.
Albanian: lēngor 'flexible'
Russ. meaning: гнуть
References: Fraenkel 357, Vasmer 551, Buck 28.
Comments: Tradicionally including Lat lanx, -cis f. 'Schüssel, Schale' (but why?)
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=3124&root=config
About the root *sleg of languere, there is also the connection to Sum. sil 'to split', sila 'cut (of meat); fragment; street', silaĝ 'a seed funnel', silig 'ax', compared by Giacomo to Skt. sīla and sīra 'plough', Old Norse, sila 'to trace a furrow' and ancient French silier 'to plow', modern French sillon 'furrow'; also Latin silex, silicis 'flint', used to cut > it's on the list, New Indology, here:
http://new-indology.blogspot.gr/2015/05/sumerian-and-indo-european-surprising.html
About Greek there is legein "to leave off, stop," and lagnein "to lust". I think I've compared Sum. silig 'cease, stop' with Gr. legein λήγειν already at Giacomos first Sumerian post, lagnein must be connected to these Indic words mentioned (about penis etc).
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=*sleg-&allowed_in_frame=0
Yes Kyriakos and thank you , these sets of words i.e. linga,langala,langula etc were considered by many scholars to be of non-indo-european origin , but as we are finding ,they are very likely indo-european! .
I wonder if there could be also a connection with nagara 'city' (I mean like urbs and urvare, the marking of the limits of a city by ploughing etc). Well, I guess not.
I wonder also if, at least in some cases, the 's mobil' could be due to a contracted form of an entire syllable, like for example, in this case from sel- or sil- > sl- (something like the *TK roots from 'TeK-' for example, see Kloekhorst's paper).
Me too :) .
I know you do ;) For example in Greek there is a word ἀσελγής aselges "licentious, wanton, brutal, lascivious, lewd" which could be connected too (the root should be something like **(H)selg instead of *sleg):
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Da)selgh%2Fs
Also, in Halloran there is a word silig3,4 'sin'.
I remembered also a word λέγος legos 'lewd'.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dle%2Fgos
Also ἐλεγαίνω elegaino 'to be wrathful, wanton, violent.'
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*e%3Aentry+group%3D74%3Aentry%3De%29legai%2Fnw
This sleg root looks almost as a anagrammatized root *skel, for example look Latin scelus
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scelus#Latin
*skel reminded me of a Sum. word sukkal 'vizier' - not that I'm sure if it is connected with this root; yet, it must have something to do with words like lagar / labar or nigir etc. I've found this interestin paper (F.A.M. Wiggermann, An Unrecognized Synonym of Sumerian s u k k a l, "Vizier"):
http://www.academia.edu/2378463/An_Unrecognized_Synonym_of_Sumerian_s_u_k_k_a_l
Very interesting yes, linga also has other meanings :
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=liGga&script=&direction=SE&link=yes
Perhaps sukkal has something to do with Latin sacer or sanctus etc.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/seh%E2%82%82k-
I'm not sure at all, yet it reminded me a byzantine term, an officer called 'sakellarios', meaning something like 'treasurer'; that is from Latin 'sacellum':
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakellarios
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sacellum
'Shrine' can be sug in Sumerian (Akkadian sukku; there is also a word sāgu), but also 'zag' (we've talked about that in Giacomo's first post).
This is a meaning 'vizier', 'secretary' 'civil servant'; another meaning of sukkal seems to be 'messanger' (or emissary):
https://books.google.gr/books?id=dy7nBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA163&lpg=PA163&dq=messenger+sukkal&source=bl&ots=eimlzVqn_c&sig=wobd0rs_dlyYDJ55tWvo-1nOhPo&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiv7p6_zPbUAhXKthQKHdhbB90Q6AEIODAD#v=onepage&q=messenger%20sukkal&f=false
That reminds of a word of persian origin, which in Greek is transliterated as sagandes or sangandes 'messanger':
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text;jsessionid=60F7AE53B4BD5F8D5F09BC0A06B2C3CE?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*s111%3Aentry+group%3D1%3Aentry%3Dsagga%2Fdhs
Which I don't know if is related to Gr. 'angelos', supposed also to be of an oriental origin (if it does, could the 's' have been dropped?). On Giacomo's list there is also a Sum. word sanga 'priest'; anyway, 'priest', 'vizier', 'civil servant', 'secretary' and 'messanger' must be all what a 'sukkal' is, as it seems.
There is also uzga 'cella, shrine, goods, treasure, treasury'. The entries at ePSD:
sukkal [SECRETARY] (3469x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Ebla, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. sukkal "secretary, civil servant" Akk. sukkallu
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/e5022.html
uzga [TREASURE] (480x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. uz-ga; uz-ga-še3; uzugx(KA); uz-ga-ta; uzug; uz3-ga; us-ga-ne; us-ga; uz-ga-ne; uzugx(|AN.ZAG|); usagx(|U.ŠA|); sausagx(|U.ŠA|); sausagx(|U.ŠA|)ki "cella, shrine; goods, treasure; treasury" Akk. sagû; sukku
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e6351.html
Hello Nirjhar,
What do you think about this Sum. word:
gulgul [STONE] (34x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. na4gul-gul "a stone", "a type of stone"
compared to these words you've compared, from this site (August 16th):
https://www.facebook.com/groups/126696954194312/
"Greek χάλιξ (khalix) "small pebble," Latin calx "limestone, lime (crushed limestone), small stone," cognates to Sanskrit karkara ''stone , limestone '' ? .
Other Indic reflexes are for example : Pk. kakkara -- m. ʻ stone, pebble ʼ; S. kakiro m. ʻ stone ʼ, °rī f. ʻ stone in the bladder ʼ; L. kakrā m. ʻ gravel ʼ; A. kã̄kar ʻ stone, pebble ʼ; B. kã̄kar ʻ gravel ʼ, Or. kāṅkara, kaṅ°; Bi. kãkrāhī ʻ gravelly soil ʼ; OAw. kāṁkara ʻ gravel ʼ; H. kã̄kar, kaṅkar, °krā m. ʻ nodule of limestone ʼ, kã̄krī, kaṅk° f. ʻ gravel ʼ; G. kã̄krɔ m. ʻ pebble ʼ, °rī f. ʻ small pebble, sand ʼ, kākriyũ ʻ abounding in pebbles ʼ, n. ʻ stony field ʼ; M. kaṅkar m. ʻ pebble, gravel ʼ. .
Source for Indic words :
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/…/philologic/contextualize.pl… Skt. śarkarā, which is interesting to be considered together with Latin calculus, as regards its meaning and possible suffix . In Monier-Williams the comparison given is : ''karkara mf(%{A})n. (perhaps connected with %{karka}) hard , firm Gi1t. Ma1lati1m. Amar. ; m. a bone L. ; a hammer L. ; a mirror L. (cf. %{karphara}) ; N. of a Na1ga MBh. i , 1561 ; (%{as} , %{am}) m. n. stone , limestone (esp. the nodule found in Bengal under the name of Kan3kar W.) , Satr. ; a species of date L. ; [cf. %{karaGka} , %{zarkara} ; Gk. $ , $ ; Lat. {hallus} , &79800[256 ,1] {calx} ; Hib. {carraice} ; Gael. {carraig} W. {careg}.] ''."
etc, etc...
AS most of the times dear Kyriakos , I think it can be related ! :)
Hi again Nirjhar,
Obviously Sum. gulgul is a redupicated form; Skt. karkara is a reduplicated form, too; Bomhard had compared karkara with words like κράτος kratos 'power, strength' etc or english 'hard' etc. There is also Sum. gul (wr. gul; gu-ul) meaning "to destroy; to break; to flatten; to carve, cut; to engrave". This perhaps could fit to words meaning gravel or pebble etc, though of course here we have a different vowel (a); a root kal- reminds also the Latin word 'calamitas', calamity.
Another similar root is this one:
Number: 1005
Root: k̂orkā (k̂rokā?), -elā
English meaning: gravel, boulder
German meaning: `Kies, Kiesel'?
Material: Ai. śárkarā (śárkara-ḥ) `Gries, Kies, Geröll, Sandzucker';
gr. κρόκη kroke, κροκάλη krokale` Kieselstein'; vielleicht hat ein *κορκάλα [korkala]: śarkarā erst nach κρέκω kreko`schlage' Umstellung zu κροκάλη erfahren.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpokorny&text_number=1005&root=config
(BTW Gr. χάλιξ khalix had been compared also to Sum. kalag 'powerful, strong' and kalaga "a stone"; and Gr. χ (kh) fits better to Sum. k than g, as we have said.)
There is also another Gr. word γυλλός gyllos, which is supposed to be a kind of cuboid or tetragonal (sacred) stone, used during the processions / sacrifices in honour of the god Apollon Delphinios in Miletus:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*g%3Aentry+group%3D32%3Aentry%3Dgullo%2Fs
http://cgrn.ulg.ac.be/file/6/?lemma1=%E1%BC%91%CE%BF%CF%81%CF%84%E1%BD%B5&condition1=exact&strict=1
In this occasion (of γύλλος gyllos) I think that it's most probably a direct loanword. Well, I' m not sure.
As for the meaning of Sum. gul as "to engrave", perhaps we could make a comparison with this (from Bomhard):
64. Proto-Indo-European *k’el-/*k’ol-/*k’l- ‘to cleave, to split’ (extended form:
*k’l-ew-bº-/*k’l-ow-bº-/*k’l-u-bº- ‘to cleave, to split’): Proto-Germanic
*kleuƀanan ‘to cleave, to split’ > Old Icelandic kliúfa ‘to cleave, to split’; Old
English clēofan ‘to cleave, to split’; Old High German klioban ‘to cleave, to
split’. Proto-Germanic *kluƀōn ‘cleft, rift’ > Old Icelandic klofi ‘cleft, rift’; Old
Frisian klova ‘chasm’; Old High German klobo ‘snare, trap’. Greek γλύφω [glypho] ‘to
carve, to cut out with a knife; to engrave’; Latin glūbō ‘to remove bark from a
tree, to peel away bark’.
Hi Kyriakos,
(BTW Gr. χάλιξ khalix had been compared also to Sum. kalag 'powerful, strong' and kalaga "a stone"; and Gr. χ (kh) fits better to Sum. k than g, as we have said.)
Obviously the connection of something hard to the strong is there.
Sum. gul as "to engrave" perhaps can be related to *ghel ''to cut'' also :
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=geld&allowed_in_frame=0
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0638
Yes, probably; there is also the root *kel "to cut, to strike" (of Gr. κλαστικός klastikos "clastic" etc); most probably connected also to *(s)kel.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=clastic
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0880
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1726
Hi Nirjhar,
I think that *kel ("cut" etc) could be also connected to another Sum. word halam, wr. ha-lam; gel-le-eĝ3 "(to be) bad, evil; to forsake, forget; to destroy" Akk. halāqu; lapātu; lemnu; mašû.
(the form gel-le-eĝ3 is Emesal).
There is also Sum. hala, wr. ha-la; hal "inheritance share" Akk. zittu. This could be also connected to the same IE root (here, cut = share), I think.
For example, in Greek there κλῆρος klêros "a lot, that which is assigned by lot, an allotment, a farm, an inheritance; also (in Christianity) the clergy", from the same root:
From Proto-Indo-European *kleh₂-, from *kelh₂- (“to hit, cut down”). Cognate with κόλαφος (kólaphos), Latin clādes, Scots holt (“a wood, copse. thicket”), North Frisian holt (“wood, timber”), West Frisian hout (“timber, wood”), Dutch hout (“wood, timber”), German Holz (“wood”), Icelandic holt (“woodland, hillock”), Old Irish caill (“forest, wood, woodland”), Albanian shul (“door latch”).
There is also in Semitic a root hlq , like halaq "to divide" etc (a second meaning is "smooth").
http://www.abarim-publications.com/Dictionary/ht/ht-l-q.html#.Wb0h9LJJaUk
In Sumerian, there is also a word hulu, wr. hul; hul3 "to destroy; (to be) bad-smelling, maloderous; (to be) bad, evil; (to be) slight, lightweight; (to be) false; (to be) criminal, dishonest; enemy; to raid; to strike the eyes; blinker, winker, one with vision problems" Akk. abātu ša īni; bēšu; lapātu ša īni; şabru; lemnu; masku; qallu; sarru; zāmânû.
maybe these two words hul(u) and gul about detruction, bad, evil etc are of the same root. Hesychius has a word γυλομενος gylomenos "destructive, lethal"
In Hebrew there is also a word nahala "inheritence":
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5159.htm
Of course this English word comes in mind :) :
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=half&allowed_in_frame=0
Interesting, yes, "half" comes from Germanic halbaz, with dubious etymology, maybe from *
*(s)kel of a similar root, but there is an interesting suggestion here about a comparison with Uralic, especiall the meaning "bad" in Estonian (reminds of Sum. hulu):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/halbaz
"Unknown. Possibly from Proto-Indo-European *(s)kelH- (“to cut”) through a sense ‘divided’ or from a stem *ḱol-bʰo- cognate with Lithuanian šalìs (“side, strip of land”).[1] Alternatively, a recent theory suggests borrowing from Proto-Finnic *halpa, *halba- (“cheap, reduced”) (compare Finnish halpa (“cheap”), Estonian halb (“bad”)).[2]
It reminded me also this ominous Greek word (etymology uknown):
χᾰλεπός (khalepós): "difficult, hard, hard to bear, painful, grievous, cruel, harsh, stern, savage, fierce".
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%87%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%B5%CF%80%CF%8C%CF%82
And the Greek word χᾰλεπός reminds me the Persian word kharâb 'to ruin ,
to destroy ,to spoil'.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AE%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%A8_%DA%A9%D8%B1%D8%AF%D9%86
Which is borrowed from Arabic ḵarāb 'ruin ,desolation ,waste' and used also in Indic languages .
See here a nice collection :
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AE%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%A8#Arabic
Indic uses :
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%AA%96%E0%AA%B0%E0%AA%BE%E0%AA%AC
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%96%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AC
Bengali also has kharap 'bad,difficult,wicked ' etc .
https://translate.google.com/#bn/en/kharap
A connection to the root 'to be hard' looks quite possible of course :).
Probably the motion "hard" etc comes from a meaning "cruel, fierce", here. There is also harb "war", in Arabic:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AD%D8%B1%D8%A8
Notice also the possible connection to the Hebrew word for "sword", kherev.
Btw, here is a useful article about Akkadian loanwords in Sumerian:
http://www.academia.edu/7291409/Akkadian_Loanwords_in_Sumerian_Revised
Thanks :) .
Hi again,
Concerning Arabic harb, Hebrew kherev "sword" etc, another similar IE root is, I think, the root of "carve" (*gherb- "to scratch" etc); which is also the root of Gr. γράφειν graphein "to scratch, to write".
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=carve&allowed_in_frame=0
Hello Nirjhar,
Sum. gunu, wr. gun3; gu2-un-gu2; gu2-nu; gun5 "(to be) speckled, multicolored; (to be) hatched (in sign names); to anoint, smear on, apply makeup" Akk. barmu; eqû
compared to Gr. γανόω ganoo = " 1. make bright, polish, glorified; make glad, delight, pf. part. Pass. γεγανωμένος geganomenos bright, glad-looking 2. tin, lacker."
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dgano%2Fw
also as γανάω ganao = "to shine, glitter, gleam, of metals, Hom.: then, like Lat. nitere, to look bright, of garden-beds, Od."
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dgana%2Fw
Hi!,
Yes it looks good :) . The Greek word is of unknown etymology right? . This IE root comes in mind though.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/candeo#Latin
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=candle&allowed_in_frame=0
Well, it's not clear if its initial meaning is "to make glad" or "to make bright"; they say that it comes from an IE root meaning "to be glad" (the same of Latin gaudeo):
From Proto-Indo-European *geh₂widéh₁yeti, from *geh₂u- (“to rejoice”). Cognate with gaudium, Gāius, Ancient Greek γηθέω (gēthéō), γαίω (gaíō), γάνῡμαι (gánūmai), γαῦρος (gaûros), γάνος (gános), Middle Irish guaire (“noble”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gaudeo#Latin
Maybe this Gr. word (ganoo / ganymai ) is found in "Ganymede" or "oregano".
On the other hand, the form of Sum. gunu reminds me of Turkish gün, meaning "sun" or "day":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/g%C3%BCn
Etymology in Starling:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=+170&root=config
Here the IE root of Starling is this one:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+400&root=config
Also, this suggestion of yours about "candle" I find quite interesting!
Guess what, there is also a type γανδέω gandeo = λάμπω (lampo, meaning "to shine, to give light".)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*g%3Aentry+group%3D5%3Aentry%3Dganda%2Fnein
Sorry, it was γανδάω gandao...
I remembered also this Indic king, which in Greek is Sandrakottos. I guess that chandra- is for "shining"...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandragupta_Maurya
Wonderful! :) . Perhaps we are dealing here with a root with -d extension and also without!.
Yes, I agree; also, since the root of gaudeo / γαίω (gaíō) / γάνῡμαι (gánūmai) is *geh₂u-, “to rejoice”, "to shine" (?), perhaps we have a root with an -n extension and secondary with a -d one (something like ga-n-d); on the other hand the root of "candle" is *kand (with k) and this looks a Germanic rendering (g>k). This type (gand- / kand-) reminds the Sum. banda for "child" (which could be also analysed as ba-n-d-, I think); and I remember a type kanda in a Dravidian tongue. Yet, about the proposed comparison with Sumerian gunu, we have a different vowel here (u instead of a).
In Halloran's Lexicon (I haven't found in ePSD) there is another similar Sum. word, bun(2), bu(7): n., lamp, light; blister; bag-type of bellows; rebellion (hollow container + nu11, 'lamp' ?). v., to be swollen; to blow; to shine brightly (cf., bul, 'to blow; to ignite').
This perhaps could be compared to this IE root (with an -n extension):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/b%CA%B0eh%E2%82%82-
A question is whether this root bʰeh₂- is connected (maybe as a pre-IE archaic root) to the one I've posted above (*gʷhai-,), like fore example gʷh > bh.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+400&root=config
I checked at Mayrhofer's Lexicon; he has this root as (s)kand -in Indic as (s')cand- ; he mentions also the opinion of H. Hirt about a root (s)kwe(n)d giving also Gr. σποδός spodos "ashes" (of a fire); of uncertain derivation.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dspodo%2Fs
This proposed root *(s)kwe(n)d [or maybe (s)kwen(n)(d) ??] reminds also the root *ken-, kenə-, keni-, kenu- 'to rub, scrape, scratch off; ashes':
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0909
Not sure about it, but maybe it fits with the meaning of "gunu" as some additional strokes (scratches?) on the clay-tablets (giving an altered meaning to the signs).
A question is whether this root bʰeh₂- is connected (maybe as a pre-IE archaic root) to the one I've posted above (*gʷhai-,), like fore example gʷh > bh.
I think its possible :) .
Not sure about it, but maybe it fits with the meaning of "gunu" as some additional strokes (scratches?) on the clay-tablets (giving an altered meaning to the signs).
I also find it very interesting! .
Well, the Nostratic here (according to Starling) is *gojńV "dawn"
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=+170&root=config
and I'm also a bit influenced by my mother tongue here, because in Greek we have a verb χαράζει kharazei, meaning "it incises", used also (metaphorically speaking) as "to dawn".
http://www.wordreference.com/gren/%CF%87%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%AC%CE%B6%CF%89
On the other hand, for the meaning "multicolour" we have also as example this other root peyḱ- (we have discussed about it before), meaning "to hew, cut out, to stitch, embroider, sting, (by extension) to paint, mark, color."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/pey%E1%B8%B1-
I mean, there is a connection between (multi)coulouring and stitching etc (like in Gr. ποικίλος poikilos).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AF%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
I've noticed also a Sum. word gunni, wr. gunni "brazier" Akk. kinûnu
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e1954.html
There is also this Sumerian word:
kinda [BARBER] (10x: Ebla, Old Akkadian, Old Babylonian) wr. kinda "barber, hairdresser" Akk. gallābu
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e3007.html
Maybe compared again to a meaning like 'scratch' or 'scrape / rub' (about hair, maybe using a comb?).
In Greek there is a verb κνάω knao "scrape, grate, scratch" etc.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkna%2Fw
From this root *ken 2. ken-, kenə-, keni-, kenu- 'to rub, scrape, scratch off; ashes'
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0909
Quite comparable :) .
Hi Nirjhar,
Not exactly sure, but I think that the form of Sum. kinda looks like a word κνίδη knide (meaning "nettle" in Greek, of the same root *ken), with cognates like Proto-Germanic *hnītaną (“to tear”), Latvian knidet (“to itch”), and Middle Irish cned (“wound”) through an earlier form *kneyd- ( <*ken).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%BD%CE%AF%CE%B4%CE%B7
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/hn%C4%ABtan%C4%85
So, perhaps a connection with a meaning "barber, hairdresser" is not impossible, since it could indicate the use not only of a comb but also a knife or razor, I think.
Another connected word could be perhaps Gr. κνώδων knodon "knife, blade" (about a meaning "cut").
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%BD%CF%8E%CE%B4%CF%89%CE%BD#Ancient_Greek
perhaps related to this word:
Proto-Slavic/kǫsati
Etymology
Per Vasmer, derived from *kǫ̑sъ (“piece”); but per Trubachev, the noun is derived from the verb. Cognate with Lithuanian ką́sti (“to bite”) (1sg. kándu), Latvian kuôst (“to bite”) (1sg. kuôžu). Possibly cognate with some or all of Ancient Greek κνώδων (knṓdōn, “knife, blade, prong”), κνώδαλον (knṓdalon, “wild beast”), Old High German hantag (“sharp, cutting”), Sanskrit खादति (khā́dati, “to chew, to bite”), Persian خاییدن (xâyidan, “to chew”), Old Armenian խածանեմ (xacanem, “to bite”). Per Derksen, from Proto-Balto-Slavic *kanˀd-, from which a Proto-Indo-European root such as *k(ʷ)end- or *k(ʷ)enHd(ʰ)- can be constructed.
to https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/k%C7%ABsati
The meaning here is mostly about cutting or even biting / chewing, though.
Note also that Foxvog at his Sumerian Glossary adds another meaning:
kinda, kindagal, (kínda in OS) barber; slave marker (gallābu).
So, perhaps a connection with a meaning "barber, hairdresser" is not impossible, since it could indicate the use not only of a comb but also a knife or razor, I think.
I agree .
Akkadian gullubu means also "to shave"
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=941&language=id
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=4759&language=id
It is interesting that in Bomhard's Nostratic connects these AA words (like gallābu etc) with this IE root of Pokorny (2. g̑hel- 'to cut?'), which in Sanskrit gives a familiar word for "plow".
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0638
It's only that Bomhard has two similar nostratic roots: one with a meaning "to cut" and another "to scratch, to scrape". But in both of these the corresponding IE sub-root is *ghel.
The Akkadian and other words are of course very interesting :) . The two roots of nostratic should be related to each other.
Nirjhar, a last thing for today:
We have this root *2. g̑hel-? ; which looks like the other g̑hel of Pokorny ( 1. g̑hel-, and ghel-?, also as i-, u-, or n-stem; g̑helə-, g̑hlē-, g̑hlō-, g̑hlə- 'to shine, glare, glow; gold, yellow, bright color' )
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0637
Could this indicate that the meanings of "brightness" and "sharpness" are connected at the minds of ancient people?
If so, can we recall Sum. gunu again here? We could think perhaps of an ancient root gVl / gVn (l/n?). There is at least a similar root in form and meaning with *ken: that is *ghen- 'to grind, crack open, gnaw to pieces'
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0648
Could this indicate that the meanings of "brightness" and "sharpness" are connected at the minds of ancient people?
Of course :). I find this idea beautiful.
Therev is also a Sum. word kin [GRIND] (2x: Old Akkadian, Old Babylonian) wr. kin2 "to grind" Akk. ţênu; also another kin [SICKLE] (140x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. urudkin; gin; kinx(|ŠE.KIN|); urudŠU.KIN "sickle" Akk. niggallu, maybe there is also here a connection with the *ken root.
Hello Nirjhar, I was thinking today about this:
In Foxvog's Sum. Glossary there is this word:
kikkin(HAR), kíkkin(HAR.HAR) millstone, grinding slab Cf. géme-kikkin grinder, miller (some read kínkín or kinkinx, others read àr-àr (OB); vars. kikken, na4kikkin-na (see Civil, AuOr Suppl. 22, p. 131f.)
Considering the meaning of kin "grind" and kikkin (< kinkin?) as millstone; also about these possibly related types "gan-d- / kan-d-" and ken / ghen-, as we have encountered already, I think there could be another possible comparison with these words of Hesychius:
· πυροί / gandoma = pyroi (pyroi means "wheat, grains of wheat")
· ἄλευρα / gandomen = aleura (aleura means "wheat, wheat-meal")
One could imagine that there is a root "gand-" also for grinding.
A question which one could pose is whether there is some connection also to the root of "grind" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/grind
Besides, there is the following Sum. word in Halloran's lexicon:
gana, gan, kan meaning (among other things) "pestle, grinding stone".
Hi Kyriakos,
I find the comparisons quite robust again :) .
Hi Nirjhar,
I've read yesterday this paper (posted on Eurogenes blog) about the pre-Greek substratum etc.
http://palaeolexicon.com/assets/PreGreekStudies/The%20Pre-Greek%20substrate%20and%20its%20origins.pdf
On page 5 it mentions a word τολύπη:
"An example is Greek τολύπη [tolype] “clew, ball of wool for spinning” and the clearly related Luwian/Hittite taluppa/i “lump, clod”. Both the Greek and Anatolian words lack Indo-European etymology and should be seen as non-Indo-European words that entered the Greek and Luwian/Hittite vocabulary."
I think it could match Sum. dilib "hair, lock of hair" (since it initial meaning in Greek is "wool for spinning"; Sum. dilib also I assumed it could be related to Farsi zulf "loch of hair".
Btw, these word of Hesychios for "wheat" etc in Greek are γάνδομα gandoma and γανδόμην gandomen.
Yeah I find that comparison quite good :). About that paper, it is useful but again ignores the deep relation IE has with the languages of Near East-West Asia . Most of the Academia don't want to see Proto-Indo-European as bringers of Civilization but conquering barbarians .
Well, I think we can keep trying a bit more with our IE comparisons regardless of these bias... ;)
About Sum. gam [CROOK] (33x: Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. ĝeškab; ĝešgam3; ĝešKIN "shepherd's crook, bent stick; haft, hilt" Akk. gamlu; šikru; we have met this word before at Giacomo's Sumerian posts, comparing it also to other languages' words meaning "bent", "curve" etc.
Specifically about the meaning "haft, hilt" I think we can also make a comparison with this root of Pokorny: *gem- 'to grasp, grip; be full'
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0562
like in Gr. γέντο gento (<gem-to) = "he grasped".
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dge%2Fnto
Yes, we should! :) . Yes, I agree with the comparison .
There is also a Gr. word. γάγγαμον gangamon, meaning "small round net for catching oysters", which must be from the same root (Chantraine and Pokorny make reference about that), so perhaps it could be from a duplicated gam-
"take, grasp" (something like gam-gam > gangam-).
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dga%2Fggamon
There are not Indo-iranian cognates in this root; but here we can also think about a possible connection to the g̑em(e)- root (for wedding, like Gr. γάμος gamos, γαμετή gamete, γαμβρός gambros etc we have been discussing of), which give words in Skrt. like jamatar etc...
Maybe there was initially a meaning "curve" or something like, then "grasp, hold, take", then "grasp, take a wife" > so "marry, unite"; we have also in Sumerian geme "woman sclave", which also looks like the root for woman (gwen-) etc (a writing of Sum. gam is also KIN, and the labiovelars like gwa etc could be seen as products of a de-palatalization process, maybe...)
It's nothing weird in such procedures, I think; in Greek there is γεμόω gemoo meaning "to fill", also γέμω gemo "to be full", probably from the same root *gem- 'to grasp, grip; be full'); this shift of meaning is due to the loading, mainly of ships (γόμος gomos means "cargo" of a ship), so here we have a meaning "grasp" (the burden) > "fill" (the ship, with cargo), then "to fill" generally etc.
Hi Nirjhar, I made some other thoughts tonight about the possible relations between the roots.
For a start, in Doric Greek (of Sicily), the word for "woman" is γάνα gana (while in Attic is γυνή gyne and in Boetian βανά bana).
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*g%3Aentry+group%3D5%3Aentry%3Dga%2Fna1
This gan- for "woman" (< *gwen-) resembles also to the already mentioned root of "to rub, scrape, scratch off" (*ken); also the assumption of a connection with the *gem- 'to grasp, grip" and "g'em-" ("to marry"; like "taking hold of a woman") and all the consequent meanings of "union", "bonding", "pairing" etc made me think again of this Sum. word again:
kad [TIE] (20x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. kad5; kad4; kad6; kad8 "to tie, gather (in ETCL "to bind together"); to itch, scratch; to weave a mat?" (Akk. harādu "to fit together, fabricate?"; harāsu "to itch, scratch"; kaşāru "to tie, knot")
We have encountered it at Giacomo's Sum. posts.
It suddenly made me think of Gr. κῆδος (kêdos), meaning "taking care", but also "connection by marriage" (like "to tie, to bind").
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dkh%3Ddos
Note that another word for "take care" is κομέω komeo in Greek > hence κόμη kome "hair" (meaning "cared hair)", like κομήτης kometes "comet" = "hairy star"), also κομμωτής kommotes (masc.) or κομμώτρια kommotria (fem.) "hair-dresser"; and since for Sum. kinda (= hairdresser) I assumed a connection with *ken "to scratch, cut", then inevitably I remember also Sum. kad meaning both "to tie, to bind together" and "to itch, scratch".
BTW, they connect this Gr. word κῆδος kedos (or κᾶδος kados in Doric) to the root of English "hate", which does very little sense to me (in fact it means exactly the opposite).
Yes very agreeable again :) . Do you think this can be added? :
com-
word-forming element usually meaning "with, together," from Latin com, archaic form of classical Latin cum "together, together with, in combination," from PIE *kom- "beside, near, by, with" (compare Old English ge-, German ge-). The prefix in Latin sometimes was used as an intensive.
Before vowels and aspirates, reduced to co-; before -g-, assimilated to cog- or con-; before -l-, assimilated to col-; before -r-, assimilated to cor-; before -c-, -d-, -j-, -n-, -q-, -s-, -t-, -v- assimilated to con-.
http://www.etymonline.com/word/com-
http://www.etymonline.com/word/con-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/%E1%B8%B1%C3%B3m
Yes, I think it can be added :) Gr. κατά kata looks also like kad (kata is used for compounds like κασσύω kassyo (καττύω kattyo) meaning "stitch together" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dkassu%2Fw
and κῆδος (kêdos) could be from some other source; and as I noted I think also that Gr. ξύν xyn is a Sanskrit like type of this root *kom, maybe because of an archaic "thorn cluster" -TK- (like TK-M/N > KS-M/N); maybe also this Sum. word kad is connected to some "thorn cluster" (kad, like KT- < TK), perhaps a TK like in Sum. tuku ("to acquire, to get, to marry), possible of same origin with the IE *tkei.
We were discussing also about Sum. kad with other proposals at Giacomo's second Sumerian post (30 December 2015).
Another root similar to *ken (maybe also kad?) is I think in Greek the root of πένθος penthos "grief" etc. From Proto-Indo-European *kʷendʰ-; cognate with πάθος (páthos) and πάσχω (páskhō).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%AD%CE%BD%CE%B8%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
That resembles also to the root *(s)kʷe(n)d of Hirt (which is mentioned by Mayrhofer) for "ashes" > σποδός spodos (ken is also for ashes, like in Gr. κόνις konis.). I suppose that "ashes" and "grief" are connected because people put asges on their heads to express their grief. The same perhaps is for "scratch" (of their faces, in funerals), maybe also the tearing (of clothes).
κῆδος kedos is also connected to funeral and grief (κηδεία kedeia means funeral in modern Greek), though the initial meaning is "care" etc (also marriage union). Likewise, *kʷendʰ- could be connected to the root of bind *bʰendʰ- (πενθερός pentheros means "father in law" in Greek, and Frisk says it is very close to the root of πένθος penthos "grief"; though the meaning is difficult to fit here). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/b%CA%B0end%CA%B0-
I think though it could fit to a meaning of relatives etc, maybe because grief (or caring) is found among relatives and families mostly.
Hi Kyriakos ,
Yes I think its correct to suggest that with 'attachment / being close/being with' comes love,joy but also sorrow and pain (also acquiring ,catching and of course joining/building) . And also being in association produce differentiation (cutting,tearing,breaking etc,you can't break,cut something if you are not in some kind of contact/connection with it first) . I am now even thinking, what if the root for 'producing,to beget etc' is also from the same concept :
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/genus#Latin
http://www.etymonline.com/word/*gene-
Or perhaps I am going nuts ;) .
The root g̑em(e)- 'to marry' is also very close:
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0564
This root is given by Bomhard as:
"B. Proto-Indo-European *k’em-/*k’m̥ - (secondary o-grade form: *k’om-)‘(vb.) to join together, to unite (in marriage); to wed, to marry; (n.) the one who is married, son-in-law’: Sanskrit jāmí-ḥ ‘related (brother or sister)’, jā́mātar- ‘son-in-law (daughter’s husband)’; Avestan zāmātar- ‘son-inlaw’; Farsi dāmād ‘son-in-law’; Greek γαμέω ‘to marry’, γάμος ‘wedding’, γαμβρός ‘son-in-law’; Latin gener (for *gemer) ‘son-in-law’; Lithuanian žéntas ‘son-in-law’; Old Church Slavic zętь ‘son-in-law’; Albanian dhëndhër, dhëndhri, dhëndhurë ‘son-in-law, bridegroom’. Pokorny 1959:369—370 *ĝem(e)- ‘to marry’; Walde 1927—1932.I:574—575 *ĝem(e)-; Mann 1984—1987:396 *ĝəmros; Watkins 1985:19 *gemə- and 2000:26 *gemə- ‘to marry’ (oldest form: *gem™-); Mallory—Adams 1997:369 *ĝemhx- ‘to marry (from the male point of view)’ and 533 *ĝomhx-ter- ‘son-in-law’, *ĝm̥ mhx-ro-s, *ĝm̥ -ro-s ‘son-in-law’, *ĝemhxto-s ‘son-in-law’; Mayrhofer 1956—1980.I:430; Boisacq 1950:140 and 140—141; Chantraine 1968—1980.I:208—209 and I:209; Frisk 1970— 1973.I:287 and I:287—288; Hofmann 1966:54; Huld 1984:58—59 *ĝamH- ‘to marry’; Orël 1998:82; De Vaan 2008:258 *ǵ(e)m-ro- ‘son-inlaw’; Walde—Hofmann 1965—1972.I:590—591 *“em(e)- ‘to marry’; Ernout—Meillet 1979:270; Fraenkel 1962—1965.II:1301; Smoczyński 2007.1:779 *ǵn̥ hù-C; Derksen 2008:543—544 *ǵenhù-ti-."
He also compare with it this Sum. word:
"Sumerian dim ‘band, binding; rope, cord; knot’, dim-ma ‘to tie together, to fasten, to bind’, dim-má ‘band, rope, cord’."
Of course ! :) .
Perhaps you've noticed that in Greek γέντο "gento" = "he grasped" (root *gem - gen-to, meaning "she grasped", turned to be gen-to "she became pregnant" and then this gen- was used also in present tense as a new verb "to beget, to produce" etc...
There is also the possibility of a comparison with Sum. dam [SPOUSE] (2104x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. dam "spouse" Akk. aššatu; mutu; which you have noticed that it looks like Gr. δάμαρ damar "a wife, spouse" (said by some to be connected to δαμάζω damazo "to overpower" or to δόμος domos (latin domus) and *dem etc.
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0334
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0335
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dda%2Fmar
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Ddo%2Fmos
here we have also Sum. dim [CREATE] (2109x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. dim2 "to create, make, manufacture; to replace?; to bring forth?" Akk. banû. We have talked about that in Giacomo's Sumerian posts.
Yes, beautiful stuff :) .
I meant before that γέντο 'gento' (gem-to < *gem 'to grasp, grip; be full'), meaning he / she grasped ( = ἔλαβεν 'elaben') ) is also in Greek a shortened form of ἐγένετο, 'egeneto' ("he bacame, he was born, produced etc < gen-to) which is from gignomai γίγνομαι (< *ǵenh₁-).
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dge%2Fnto
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%CE%AF%CE%B3%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%B9
In Greek we use also a term συνέλαβεν "syneleben" = "she seized" (the sperm) to mean "she became pregnant".
Maybe it was then *ǵenh₁- < *gem-, perhaps first 'gem-to' became 'gento' and then this gen- was used also in a specific meaning for 'beget' etc as *gen- in present tense; perhaps it had also to do with the meaning of *gem "full" (as it is the case of a womb in pregnancy).
Hi Nirjhar,
I think Sumerian dim ‘band, binding; rope' etc looks like this root: *deh₁- 'to bind'(mostly in Greek and Sanskrit), but without the final -m (or, rather, with a larygeal instead of it).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/deh%E2%82%81-
Yeah I think too :) .
Maybe in IE an archaic root similar (or the same) with Sum. dim "bind, rope" etc was used to specify the taming (of animals etc), I mean this root: demh₂- 'to tame, domesticate'.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/demh%E2%82%82-
Like for example in Old Irish damnaid (“bind, subdue”).
Maybe also *deh₁- retained the meaning ;bind' but it lost (?) its m (not sure about that).
There are also another similar Sum. verb dab [SEIZE] (8723x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. dab5; dab; dab5-dab5; dabx(|LAGAB×GUD|) "to seize, take, hold; to bind; to envelop, overwhelm; to choose (by extispicy); to accept; to take charge of" Akk. sahāpu; tamāhu; kamû; şabātu.
Of course it makes good sense :) .
The next comparison I don't know if makes good sense ...
Yet, if Bomhard is right about the connection of the root *gem(e) or *k’em-/*k’m̥ -,*k’om- (as it has it) for "united in marriage, join together" (of gamos etc), with Sum. dim ‘band, binding; rope' etc, we can imagine (using this g/d alteration) a possible comparison of Sum. dab "to seize, take, hold; to bind; to envelop" etc, with this root:
*keh₂p- "to seize; to grab"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/keh%E2%82%82p-
or maybe this one:
*gʰeh₁bʰ- or *ǵʰeh₁bʰ-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/g%CA%B0eh%E2%82%81b%CA%B0-
One could notice also that Sum. gam "shepherd's crook, bent stick; haft, hilt" has also a writing "(ĝeš)kab" [the other ones beeing (ĝeš)gam3 and (ĝeš)KIN].
About Sum. dab "seize, bind" etc, I remembered now this Gr. word τοπεῖον (or τοπήϊον) topeion "rope. cord" (no clear etymology).
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dtopei%3Don
Another Sum. word is dur [BOND] (28x: ED IIIa, Old Babylonian) wr. dur; gidur "binding, knot, bond, tie; umbilical cord; rope" Akk. abunnatu; markasu; ţurru.
That reminds Skt. doraka "rope, strap of leather"
http://sanskritdictionary.com/doraka/106131/1
Very interesting :) . Not sure about Doraka though.
About Gr. τοπεῖον / τοπήϊον topeion ("rope, cable" etc - BTW the word "cable" is from Lat. capulum < capio https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cable), it is said that it's connected to Gr. τόπος topos, meaning "a place, location, position, office" etc. The etymology of τόπος topos is unknown.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CF%8C%CF%80%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
Another interesting word is τοπάζω topazo (vb) "aim at, guess, divine" (it reminds me of Sum. dab as "to choose (by extispicy)".
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dtopa%2Fzw
The meaning "to take charge of" fits perhaps to the meaning of "office" (?).
So, I guess (τοπάζω topazo :D ) that a "topos" is something you can hold of (or maybe it is firm ?); like a specific location or region, a position, an office etc. At least to this interpretation leads the similar form of topeion "rope, cable" (something that binds firmly, holds together" etc).
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dtopa%2Fzw
I agree with you on this :) .
Maybe Sum. dur could be connected to the root *dʰer- "to support, to hold", like Latin firmus etc:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/firmus#Latin
Can be :) , there is also dari 'to support' , which was connected to the PIE root.
So, what is the etymology of doraka? I find it quite similar to a Gr. word (in Hesychius), δάρκες darkes = δέσμαι desmai ("packages, bundles").
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*d%3Aentry+group%3D7%3Aentry%3Dda%2Frkes
The etymology of δάρκες darkes is unknown, yet δέσμαι desmai is of the same root with δεσμοί desmoi; δεσμός desmos means 'band, bond, anything for tying and fastening' etc, which is from δέω deo "bind" < *deh₁- 'to bind'.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%CE%B5%CF%83%CE%BC%CF%8C%CF%82
I find this quite convincing Kyriakos! :D .
Hi Nirjhar, maybe there is a variation with d (?) instead of dh (like **der or something like), perhaps connected to the root of "tree" (*deru-, *dō̆ru-, etc) :D.
I remember we were talking about *dher before (at Giacomo's first post), it was about Sum. durun "sit, dwelling etc" and Skt duroNa "dwelling", dhAraNA "supporting, bearing", also Gr. thronos "seat" etc.
Some think that the following Greek word belongs also to the "*dher-" root:
θώραξ thorax "corslet, coat of mail, cuirass"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B8%CF%8E%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%BE#Ancient_Greek
θώραξ thorax looks also like 'doraka'; and it has been compared by some with Skt. dhAraka "container" etc).
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=dhAraka&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
I think that if a meaning about "bind" could be added to the "support, hold" of this root, this comparison could stand much better.
Besides, I remember that Sum. banda means also 'stanchion, support' (and it reminds the IE root of "bind") :P.
I agree ! :) .
I think also that we have a small issue here...
I mean about θώραξ etc; the other view is that it is a pre-Greek word:
"Probably a Pre-Greek substrate loan, hinted by the suffix -αξ- .
Cognate with θύραξ (thúrax), Mycenaean Greek (to-ra-ke), and possibly Latin lorico."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B8%CF%8E%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%BE#Ancient_Greek
lorico is here:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lorico#Latin
(From lōrīca + -ō) lōrīcō "I armour (someone) with a lōrīca quotations (post-classical, by extension) I clothe (someone) in a cuirass, breastplate, corslet, coat of mail, hauberk, or other such armour protecting at least the torso (transferred sense) I cover (something) with a coating, I plaster."
lōrīca is here:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lorica
"Latin, literally "a corselet of thongs", from lorum (“thong”).
(historical) A cuirass, originally of leather, afterward of plates of metal or horn sewed on linen or the like."
and lōrum is here:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lorum#Latin
"Possibly from an extinct, but Proto-Indo-European substrate language; or, possibly for *vlōrum, from Proto-Indo-European *wel- (“to turn, wind, round”), the same root of volvō. Confer with Ancient Greek εὔληρα (eúlēra, “reins”), Old Armenian լար (lar).
meaning: thong (leather strap), reins of a bridle, whip, lash, scourge, girdle, slender vinebranch"
this last opinion (from *wel), it;s also in Pokorny:
u̯lē-ro-, u̯lō-ro-, u̯lə-ro-: gr. εὔληρα, dor. αὔληρα Pl. `Zügel', ἄβληρα · ἡνία Hes. (*ἐ-, ἀ-ϝληρο-), lat. lōrum `Riemen', lōrica `Kettenpanzer' (`Riemenpanzer'), arm. lar `Strick, Schnur, Bogensehne, Muskel', vgl. oben S. 1139.
Now, doraka meanss also "rope, strap of leather". Could we have a situation like d/l here? And what about *wel?
I think d to r change here is good explanation , yes :) .
Meant to say d to l of course .
There is also the possibility of some words with initial g- (or k-) being older than the ones with initial d-, with the same form, like, let's say Sum. gurum for "dwelling" and Sum. durun with almost the same meaning (maybe g > d?). Take for example in kwel/ kwer and the ones you have already posted > Proto-Nostratic root *k’w¦ar- (~ *k’w¦ǝr-) / Proto-Afro-Asiatic: *ḳʷar- meaning block of houses, settlement, town, and Dravidian Kannaḍa kūr ‘to sit down’, kūrisu ‘to cause to sit’; Telugu kūr(u)cuṇḍu ‘to sit, to be seated’ (kur- > dur- ?).
That of course lead us again to our favourite word nagara :D.
I remembered also that Giacomo, when mentioning that in Pāli nagara means'fortress, fortified city', and in Khotanese noγor 'fortress, castle', made a reference to dṛḍha 'firm; stronghold', as an exaple of the motion "firmness" (for the stronghold).
Sorry Nirjhar, I am making some random thoughts...
Our favorite word nagara :) is becoming more beloved now ;) . Yes I think those possibilities as quite practical! .
What are you talking about? :O . I am finding the quite good! .
Thanks :)
BTW, for the other dari [ETERNAL] (100x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. da-ri2; da-ri; du-ri "(to be)eternal" Akk. dārû "lasting, eternal", that you have connected to Lat. durare, from Proto-Indo-European *deru-, *drew- (“hard, fast”) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/durus#Latin and durare etc - you've said also Sanskrit dRDha ''firm,stiff,rigid,steady'', also Lithuanian drutas "firm,"Welsh derw "true,"
This is the root of the "tree":
http://www.etymonline.com/word/*deru-
I think there is also a comparable Gr. word δηρός deros (or in Doric δαρός daros) meaning "too long" (concerning time); yet the etymology here seems to be a bit different:
From Proto-Hellenic *dwārós, from Proto-Indo-European *duh₂rós, *dweh₂rós (whence Old Armenian երկար (erkar), Sanskrit दूर (dūrá, “far”), Latin dūrus, Avestan (dūrāt̰), (dūirē)), from *dweh₂- (“long”) (whence δήν (dḗn), Latin dūdum).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%CE%B7%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%82
So, I 'm a bit confused here :(
Perhaps being long and far is a secondary meaning of being 'hard,fast,rigid' etc , applied in case of space/place from the point of view of time.
I agree on that :)
There is also a word δροόν droon = ἰσχυρόν ischyron (neuter) (meaning "strong") in Hesychius; maybe also the word Dorian (Δωριεύς Dorieus) could be from this root (Pokorny says it is from Δωρίς Doris "wild land, land of the trees" - the Dorians were one of the four Greek tribes, the Spartans were Dorians), yet it could mean just "strong, hard etc".
Another thought I made yesterday (which may concern also nagara - having in mind a possible nigir / libir alteration, as it happens in Sumerian) is that a kind of dher- element could be found also in the word for "free" (eleu-ther-os < Hleu-dher-os; though the traditional Pokorny root is given as *leudh- https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1190 ; I thought, as you remember, that it could mean a people well protected or something like (in a stronghold maybe).
If you remember also Sum. libir means "(to be) old, long-lasting" (Akk. labāru); perhpaps it could mean also initially "durable".
Very agreeable concept Kyriakos :) .
Hello, Nirjhar,
Some observations for today: I've noticed there is a Sum. word dartar [TIED] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. dar-tar "(to be) tied".
This seems to me as a reduplication of a dar-, as it is likewise the case with the Greek word for "tree", that is δένδρον dendron or δένδρεον dendreon (in Homer). From Proto-Indo-European *der-drew-, from *dóru (“tree”); so we have der-drew > den-drew- (you have also compared "tree" with Sum. tir "forest, wood").
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%CE%AD%CE%BD%CE%B4%CF%81%CE%BF%CE%BD
Also, about dóru (or derew(o)-) it is stated in Wikipedia:
"Some argue that it is a deadjectival noun of *deru-, *drew- (“hard, firm, strong, solid”) with reflexes as Latin dūrus (“hard, rough”), Old English trum (“strong, firm”) and Ancient Greek δροόν (droón, “strong, mighty”)."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/d%C3%B3ru
So, perhaps we have a similar construction here (dar-tar, like der-drew-); obviously a tree is "fixed" and not exactly "tied", yet it could be considered as "tied (by its roots) to the ground", so I think the meaning "tie" fits well to the meaning "firm, hard, strong, solid etc here.
Sum. tir looks also like Armenian antar "wood".
Another think that I observed concerning Sum. dari, wr. da-ri2; da-ri; du-ri "(to be) eternal" Akk. dārû "lasting, eternal", is that one of its writings (da-ri) is the same with the writing of Sum. uru = "support" (yet Sum. dari "support" is written differently).
That probably means that both Sum. dari "support" and dari "everlasting, eternal" share the same origin with Sum. uru "support".
Concerning uru, I've noticed from Wikipedia that the Tocharian cognate for *doru is just "or" (wood), without a "d". Maybe it's not just a coincidence. From here:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/d%C3%B3ru
So, perhaps we have a similar construction here (dar-tar, like der-drew-); obviously a tree is "fixed" and not exactly "tied", yet it could be considered as "tied (by its roots) to the ground", so I think the meaning "tie" fits well to the meaning "firm, hard, strong, solid etc here.
I find it quite convincing Kyriakos :) .
Concerning uru, I've noticed from Wikipedia that the Tocharian cognate for *doru is just "or" (wood), without a "d". Maybe it's not just a coincidence.
The Tocharian evidence makes it quite possible , yes ! :) .
Hi Nirjhar, I've made some other observations today and I'd like to have your opinion about them.
About this root *leudh- or *Hleudh-, I've checked at Mayrhofer for rodhati "to grow" etc "From Proto-Indo-European *h₁léwdʰeti (“to grow”). Cognate with Old English lēodan."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8B%E0%A4%A7%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF#Sanskrit
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%81lewd%CA%B0-
In Mayrhofer I found another RODH(1) root "to prevent" about obstacles etc, the other root for "grow" etc being RODH(2).
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=rodha&direct=se
For example, rodhas means "shore, bank, dam"; also rodha "barrier, check, blocading, shore, impeding, attacking, suppressing, surrounding, besieging, preventing" etc.
Mayrhofer says it is also from the same root *leudh-; he's referring to a celtic word arlludd "obstacle". He also says the several cognates are difficult to be separated among the two meanings.
Mayrhofer also thinks about a variation of this root as *Hleugh (for some ROH words):
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=roha&direct=se
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=rohayati&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
That could be closo to this Khotanese word noγor that Giacomo was talking about (considering a n/l alteration). But not at all sure about that (it's because I'm searching all the possibilities about the nigir / libir alteration, and here I saw an intermediate "ligir", let's say).
In Greek the word for barrier / obstacle etc is different; but there is a similar word ἐρείδω ereido about "support" etc, meaning "cause to lean, generally, fix firmly, plant, prop, prop up, support, stay, press hard, attack, push, thrust, intr., press hard, set to work, fall to, become fixed" etc with uncertain etymology:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3De)rei%2Fdw
It has been also compared to Latin ridica https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ridica
I think that a hypothetical root for this word could be something like **Hreid; and if we consider a l/r evolvement, like in Sanskrit, then this could be quite close to *Hleudh-.
That could be closo to this Khotanese word noγor that Giacomo was talking about (considering a n/l alteration). But not at all sure about that (it's because I'm searching all the possibilities about the nigir / libir alteration, and here I saw an intermediate "ligir", let's say).
I find this possible yes :) .
It has been also compared to Latin ridica https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ridica
I think that a hypothetical root for this word could be something like **Hreid; and if we consider a l/r evolvement, like in Sanskrit, then this could be quite close to *Hleudh-.
I agree with you! :) .
Nirjhar, what about the IE root for "red" (*Hreudh-)? This also seems to be close to *Hleudh-, I think. We have also the comparison with Sum. urudu "copper, strong" . Maybe *Hreudh- is a Sanskrit-like modification of *Hleudh- (?), to indicate the colour of this "strong" metal.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%81rud%CA%B0r%C3%B3s
So, *Hleudh- meant perhaps "strong" (with a meaning of "obstacle" - like a dam or fortifications - then "rise, grow, people" and then "free".
Nirjhar, what about the IE root for "red" (*Hreudh-)? This also seems to be close to *Hleudh-, I think. We have also the comparison with Sum. urudu "copper, strong" . Maybe *Hreudh- is a Sanskrit-like modification of *Hleudh- (?), to indicate the colour of this "strong" metal.
You know , I was actually thinking about this and you have written it down! :D
So, *Hleudh- meant perhaps "strong" (with a meaning of "obstacle" - like a dam or fortifications - then "rise, grow, people" and then "free"
Makes good sense this ! :) .
The meanig of rodhas as "shore, bank, dam" is interesting (also of rodha as "barrier, blocading, shore, impeding, attacking, suppressing, surrounding" etc). The notions are again for "firm" and "strong", indicating perhaps the river-sides; and you have said that cities usually are near rivers (I'm thinking again about nagara).
In Greek I remembered this word: ἄνδηρον anderon (neut.)"raised bank by the side of a river or ditch, dike ... mostly in plural, ἄνδηρα, (τά) andera (ta), also meaning "border, edge, of the sea", "border (for plants etc)". I made this reference because it reminds me δηρός deros, for long lasting, but as you've said perhaps the first meaning here is for 'hard,fast,rigid'. The etymology is uknown and even if there is a connection to δηρός, I'm not sure what the ἄν- an- part is for...
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Da)%2Fndhron
btw, which is the etymology of this word aNDIra? This looks close enough, but I'm not sure if it is really comparable.
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=andira&direct=au
Very interesting proposals again ! :) . About aNDIra 'man,strong,full male' chances are good that it comes from aNDa ' an egg , a testicle ; the scrotum ; the musk bag ; semen virile'
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=aNDa&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
From a discussion I came to know about aNDa :
As for aNDa, its origin is a bit dubious. One of hypotheses says it is a kind of "Prakritic-like" development of antra "entrails" or "something which is within".
But still there are other ideas about that, keeping in view that aaNDa with long "a" in the beginning (also meaning "egg") is quite an old word, from Vedic times.
To my knowledge, the only possible cognate for that is Slavic (esp. Russian) yadro "nutmeat".
For "egg", nearly all European IE languages have lexemes derived from the root for a "bird".
ovum (Lat.), o(w)ion (Gk.), also Germanic and Slavic forms. ....also in Iranic languages, with initial laryngeal! https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82%C5%8Dwy%C3%B3m
There is also a Gr. word, fit for a meaning "enclosure", that is μάνδρα mandra “enclosed space, stable”; perhaps cognate with Skt. mandurā f, "stable for horses, bed" etc.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BC%CE%AC%CE%BD%CE%B4%CF%81%CE%B1#Ancient_Greek
About nagara as "temple", and the possibilities of forms like labar etc, there is also the hypothesis of Giovanni Garbini for a comparison of "debir" (Holy of Holies of Solomon's Temple) with "labyrinth" (λαβύρινθος), written in Linear B as da-pu-ri-to ; perhaps we could imagine nagar- / labar- (n/l) and dabar (l/d). See also here:
https://books.google.gr/books?id=NFNsBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT140&lpg=PT140&dq=dapurito+mycenaean&source=bl&ots=BoyAP89F2S&sig=0kZpgwV3jbHFRtpVviEqf7Cf6XA&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiTobvmwPjWAhVF1hQKHUW7CKwQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=dapurito%20mycenaean&f=false
perhaps we could imagine nagar- / labar- (n/l) and dabar (l/d)
Good possibility IMO :) .
Hi Nirjhar,
The main reason I made a reference to these words for enclosure is that a parallel root *Hleugh-er (for *Hleudh-er) made me think about a possible relation of *dher- with the *gher- root (about enlosure, also city, house etc). I'm not sure if this works that way, though.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/%C7%B5%CA%B0er-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%97%E0%A5%83%E0%A4%B9#Sanskrit
Hello Nirjhar,
I was thinking that Indic "anda" could be from a root similar to *ken -but without the initial "k". For example, the word "nut" is from this root (*ken):
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0908
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nut
From this *ken (to pinch, press, etc) there is also Skt. kanda "bulb etc".
I've compared also the other *ken root ("to rub, scrape, scratch off; ashes") toSum. "kinda"; kanda belongs to this root:
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=kanda&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
Since in Greek the word κνίδη (knide), "nettle" is from this other root *ken, I was thinking about a Gr. word which resembles knide but without the "k-", meaning also something like "nut"; more precisely it's about the meaning "testicle":
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*n%3Aentry+group%3D24%3Aentry%3Dni%2Fdes
νίδες [nides]: αἰδοῖα ἢ ὀρχίδια παιδίων ( = genitals or testicles of boys). (supposingly a Sicilian word).
This could be perhaps a root similar in form to the one of Gr ἀδήν(adḗn) "gland"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CE%B4%CE%AE%CE%BD#Ancient_Greek
I remember also that in Sumerian the word for "egg" is "nunuz"; and nu or ni is about strenght, man and virility (I'm not sure if it is connected).
From this *ken (to pinch, press, etc) there is also Skt. kanda "bulb etc".
I've compared also the other *ken root ("to rub, scrape, scratch off; ashes") toSum. "kinda"; kanda belongs to this root:
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=kanda&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
Since in Greek the word κνίδη (knide), "nettle" is from this other root *ken, I was thinking about a Gr. word which resembles knide but without the "k-", meaning also something like "nut"; more precisely it's about the meaning "testicle":
Interesting suggestion Kyriakos :) .
Hi Nirjhar, thanks for your supporting comments ;)
In Halloran's lexicon I've noticed this Sum. word (not found in ePSD):
kínda[URI]; kindax[LAK-419]: a type of vessel for measuring barley or holding water.
Since it seems to be a (semi-)spherical object, I thing it could be related to this *ken root of Pokorny, too.
In Pokorny there are these words (in *ken root):
kondo- `Geballtes' ["spherical, clenched, accumulated"]:ai. kanda- m. `Knolle' "bulb, tuber], kandúka- m. `Spielball' [ball for games], kanduka- n. `Kissen' [pillow]; gr. κόνδοι kondoi· κεραῖαι. ἀστράγαλοι ["horns", "vertebrae"] Hes., κόνδυλος kondylos` Knochengelenk der Finger, Knebel, Faust, Ohrfeige, etc [knockle, toggle, joint of the finger-bones, gag, fist], also κονδύλωμα kondyloma `Geschwulst' [tumor]; lit. kánduolas m. `Kern' [kernel] etc.
In Starostin the root is *kond
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+++563&root=config
In Greek I recalled also this word:
κόνδυ kondy, (Gen. -yos, neut.) = drinking-vessel; (also) as a measure.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=KO%2FNDU%5E
I think that it could be connected to this Sum. kinda.
Maybe the name of this famous vessel is connected too (perhaps through Greek) :)
http://www.etymonline.com/word/gondola
http://ewonago.blogspot.gr/2013/02/etymology-of-gondola.html
Look also here for the IA (and Greek) words:
https://books.google.gr/books?id=iLS9CwAAQBAJ&pg=PA357&lpg=PA357&dq=%CE%BA%CF%8C%CE%BD%CE%B4%CF%85%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%82+greek+etymology&source=bl&ots=ecbLLdMPeC&sig=e27MCogcn4eCdA5zcNadYE899VY&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiM66q-4P_WAhWBL8AKHTkHB5oQ6AEISDAE#v=onepage&q=%CE%BA%CF%8C%CE%BD%CE%B4%CF%85%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%82%20greek%20etymology&f=false
According to Halloran's lexicon, kínda[URI]; kindax[LAK-419]: "a type of vessel for measuring barley or holding water" has the same writing with Sum. uri, wr. uri "a vessel"; and a strange thing is that another uri, wr. uri4 means "an illness of the joints, arthritis?; an illness" Akk. maškadu; šannadu [I said strange, because of the meaning of kondylos (look above)].
But the most strange thing is that the writing "uri" is transliterated also as "akkadu", that is "Akkadian".
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=2265&language=id
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%F0%92%8C%B5
About the etymology of Akkad, in wikipedia it is said:
"The etymology of the name is unclear, but not of Akkadian (Semitic) origin. Various suggestions have proposed Sumerian, Hurrian or Lullubean etymologies. The non-Akkadian origin of the city's name suggests that the site may have already been occupied in pre-Sargonic times, as also suggested by the mentioning of the city in one pre-Sargonic year-name.[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akkad_(city)
Since it seems to be a (semi-)spherical object, I thing it could be related to this *ken root of Pokorny, too.
I also think this can be connected! :) .
Maybe the name of this famous vessel is connected too (perhaps through Greek) .
Very interesting :) .
But the most strange thing is that the writing "uri" is transliterated also as "akkadu", that is "Akkadian".
Very strange indeed !! :D .
About the possible loss of an initial k- (like in anda / kanda, maybe due to kind of lenition?), I think we can compare also these Sum. words (ninda or inda):
ninda [VESSEL] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. dug.ninda2 "a measuring vessel" Akk. namandu; parsiktu
cuneiform DUG.NINDA₂ wr. dug.ninda2 (inda).
Also Sum. ninda [BREAD] (11296x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Ebla, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. ninda; inda "bread; food" Akk. akalu
[1] cuneiform GAR ninda
[2] cuneiform NINDA₂ inda
Most probably because of their spherical object, one assumes (like anda etc).
So, we must study about this kand / kond / kund words in IE tongues, I guess.
Yes , perhaps some relation with Sanskrit maNDala also (?) :
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=maNDala&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
also kuNDala :
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=kundala&direct=se
and of Course kuNDa :
n. [%{as} m. L.] , a bowlshaped vessel , basin , bowl , pitcher , pot , water-pot Ka1tyS3r. MBh. &c. ; a vessel for coals R. v , 10 , 16 &c. ; a round hole in the ground (for receiving and preserving water or fire cf. %{agni-kuNDa}) , pit , well , spring or basin of water (especially consecrated to some holy purpose or person) MBh. R. &c. ; m. an adulterine , son of a woman by another man than her husband while the husband is alive Mn. iii , 174 ; (see. %{gola} and %{-golaka} below) ; N. of S3iva MBh. xii , 10358 ; of a Na1ga MBh. i , 4828 ; of a son of Dhr2ita-ra1sht2ra MBh. i , 4550 ; (%{A}) f. ( %{kuND}) mutilation Pa1n2. 3-3 , 103 Ka1s3. ; N. of Durga1 L. ; (%{I}) f. (Pa1n2. 4-1 , 42) a bowl , pitcher , pot Hcat. Prasannar. ; (%{ami}) n. ifc. a clump (e.g. %{darbha-k-} , a clump of Darbha grass) Pa1n2. 6-2 , 136 ; a particular measure L. ; N. of certain mystical figures ; a particular appearance of the moon (surrounded by a circle) VarBr2S. iv , 15. [http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/scans/MWScan/tamil/index.html]
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=kuNDA&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
There is also Sum. kunda "bowl, pot" etc
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=kunda&direct=au
Also kunta or kuntha / kunta / kuntala with such meanings like "stupid, bowl, hair, lance, plough" etc
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=kuntha&direct=au
Look about that on page 362 of the link I've just posted (Adriano V. Rossi's article).
κοντός kontos means also "pole" in Greek, also "short" (kondos)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=konto%2Fs&la=greek&can=konto%2Fs0
In Byzantine Greek κοντάριον kontarion means "spear" (it is κοντάρι kondari in Mod. Greek).
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkonta%2Frion2
Well, we were thinking again about the same things, Nirjhar! :D
It appears kuNDa is related to '' kuND cl. 1. P. %{kuNDati} , to mutilate Dha1tup. ix , 37: cl. 1. A1. %{kuNDate} , to burn ib. viii , 17: cl. 10. %{kuNDayati} , to protect ib. xxxii , 45''
Turners suggestion is perhaps that its from Dravidian , but it looks to be more widely shared :)
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.0.soas.1966180
About κόνδυ kondy, it must be a loanword (from Persian or IndoIranian in general), I checked at Hesychius and he says kondy = ποτήριον βαρβαρικόν, κυμβίον - poterion barbarikon = barbarian glass; ποτ- pot- < from root of "drink"; κυμβίον kymbion must be also a loanword, like Sktr. kumbha:
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=kumbha&direct=se
There is also a Gr. word κάνθαρος kantharos, a type of ancient Greek cup used for drinking.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kantharos
According to the lexicon of unknown etymology; maybe a pre-Greek word.
Kantharos means also "dung-beetle"; the connection between the two meanings is not evident:
http://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/tools/pottery/shapes/kantharos.htm
There is also Sanskrit kaNTa 'Thorn' , from it kaNTaka :
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=kaNTaka&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
See also here on kaNTa (kaṇṭa ) :
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.0.soas.1534022
kaṇṭa 2668 kaṇṭa1 m. ʻ thorn ʼ BhP. 2. káṇṭaka -- m. ʻ thorn ʼ ŚBr., ʻ anything pointed ʼ R.
1. Pa. kaṇṭa -- m. ʻ thorn ʼ, Gy. pal. ḳand, Sh. koh. gur. kōṇ m., Ku. gng. kã̄ṇ, A. kāĩṭ (< nom. *kaṇṭē?), Mth. Bhoj. kã̄ṭ, OH. kã̄ṭa.
2. Pa. kaṇṭaka -- m. ʻ thorn, fishbone ʼ; Pk. kaṁṭaya<-> m. ʻ thorn ʼ, Gy. eur. kanro m., SEeur. kai̦o, Dm. kãṭa, Phal. kāṇḍu, kã̄ṛo, Sh. gil. kóṇŭ m., K. konḍu m., S. kaṇḍo m., L. P. kaṇḍā m., WPah. khaś. kaṇṭā m., bhal. kaṇṭo m., jaun. kã̄ḍā, Ku. kāno; N. kã̄ṛo ʻ thorn, afterbirth ʼ (semant. cf. śalyá -- ); B. kã̄ṭā ʻ thorn, fishbone ʼ, Or. kaṇṭā; Aw. lakh. H. kã̄ṭā m.; G. kã̄ṭɔ ʻ thorn, fishbone ʼ; M. kã̄ṭā, kāṭā m. ʻ thorn ʼ, Ko. kāṇṭo, Si. kaṭuva.
About Kumbha TOB says this :
Proto-IE: *kumbh-, *kumb- (kh-)
Nostratic etymology: Nostratic etymology
Meaning: a k. of vessels
Old Indian: kumbhá- m. `jar, pitcher'
Avestan: xumba- m. 'Topf'
Other Iranian: NPers xumb, xum 'Topf, Krug'
Old Greek: kǘmbǟ f. `Trinkgefäss, Becken, Schale', kǘmbo-s m. (/ kǘmbos n.) `Hohlgefäss, Schale'
Celtic: MIr comm `Gefäss', cummal `Becher, Schale', Bret komm `Trog'
Russ. meaning: сосуд
References: WP I 370 f, Buck 28.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+580&root=config
From Mallory's oxford PIE book p.239 :
Much solider are the correspondences that suggest *kumbho/
eha- ‘bowl’ (e.g. OIr coim ‘pot’, Grk ku´mbe¯ ‘bowl’, Av xumba-‘pot’, Skt
kumbha´-‘pot’) which are found from Ireland to India although its derivation,
either from *keu- ‘bend’ or possibly a loanword into Proto-Indo-European, is
disputed.
About Greek κοντάριον , Sanskrit kaNTa this seems to be related :) :
Greek kentron "sharp point, goad, sting of a wasp," from kentein "stitch," from PIE root *kent- "to prick" (source also of Breton kentr "a spur," Welsh cethr "nail," Old High German hantag "sharp, pointed").
http://www.etymonline.com/word/center
See also :
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0921
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/center#Etymology
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%B5%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%AD%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
BTW Kyriakos , do you think κυμβίον can be related to the suggested PIE root by Mallory and TOB? :)
This one is obviously related to the pointy etymologies ;) :
Proto-IE: *k'net-, *k'ent- (-th-)
Meaning: to pierce
Old Indian: śnáthati (D.), śnathiti, śnatháyati `to pierce, strike, injure, kill'
Avestan: snaɵ- `schlagen', snaiɵiš- n. `Waffe zum Schlagen oder Hauen'
Old Greek: kentéō, aor. kénsai̯, va. kestó- `stacheln, stechen', késtro-s `Art Pfeil etc.', késtrǟ `Spitzhammer, Bolzen', kéntro-n `Stachel', kéntōr `Anstachler', kontó-s m. `der Stecher'
Baltic: *čint-a- c.
Celtic: Cymr cethr `Nagel', Corn kenter `Nagel', Bret kentr `Sporn'.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=1524&root=config
In Mallory's PIE book p.298 he lists : *kˆent 'sharp' , *kˆent- (e.g. Goth handugs
‘wise’, Latv sı¯ts ‘hunting spear’, Grk kente´o¯ ‘prick’).
Kyriakos, what Mayrhofer suggest on kaNTa ,kaNTaka? .
It could be; the traditional etymology is from *(s)kamb root:
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1719
(kymbe κύμβη is the feminine form)
Also another root (s)k̑em- means "to Harm, Injure, Damage, Horn 'deformed, disabled, mutilated; hornless":
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1733
But I'm more interested in types with -nth- (-νθ-), which are thought to be generally "pre-Greek" (like labyrinthos λαβύρινθος etc); it has been also suggested that they're part of a Minoan "adstratum"; so, I'd like to know if they're connected to Indo-Arian words (as you have sayd there is a theory that Minoan is a Sanskrit like language).
Yes the Traditional etymology is sound :) .
Mayrhofer suggests nothing; he mentions that its origin is unclear and a proposed "indo-mediterranean" substrate origin (together with Gr. ἄκανθα akantha "thorn, prickle") cannot be proven; akantha is here:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Da)%2Fkanqa
(btw it has been suggested that *ak is perhaps one of the roots connected to akantha).
Mayrhover mentions also another suggestion of Bur (from an older *kantaka, connected to Gr.κεντέω kentéō); he mentions a "sangleci" [probably an iranian?] word kandag "thorn", which could be from an iranian *kantaka (in Sims-Williams), if it's not an indoarian loanword.
Also, κεντέω kentéō (goad, prick etc) is connected to κοντός kontos > goad after all is one of its meanings:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkonto%2Fs1
Thanks ! :) .
BTW You said there is Sumerian kunda "bowl, pot" etc and linked :
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=kunda&direct=au
But there seems to be this in Sumerian : kunrim [VESSEL] wr. kun-rimzabar; kun-du3; dugkun-rim; dugkun-ri "a libation vessel" Akk. maslahtu .
Can be a coincidence though :) .
There is another Gr. word about "spherical" (or such) objects:
κανθών kanthon "A.corner of the eye, 2. poet., eye, II. tyre of a wheel, III. chimney, Hsch.
IV. pot, pan, Id. (Lat. cantus (in signf. 11) is said to be African or Spanish by Quint.1.5.8.).
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkanqo%2Fs
BTW Hesychius says that kanthos is the "circle of the eye" and the "blowing of the smoke in chimneys" (maybe it's the circular shape of the smoke?) and "chimney" only according to some.
Another word is κάνθων kanthon "pack-ass" (maybe an allusion to a meaning "dull, stupid"?)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dka%2Fnqwn
About kanthon ,kanthos Kyriakos , IMO Sanskrit kaNTha has some resemblance due to the shape of the neck ,throat etc :
1 kaNTha m. (%{kaN} Un2. i , 105) , the throat , the neck (cf. %{A-kaNTha-tRpta} ; %{kaNThe} %{grah} , to embrace Katha1s.) ; the voice (cf. %{sanna-kaNTha}) MBh. BhP. &c. ; sound , especially guttural sound W. ; the neck (of a pitcher or jar) , the narrowest part (e.g. of the womb ; of a hole in which sacrificial fire is deposited ; of a stalk &c.) Sus3r. Hcat. Katha1s. &c. ; immediate proximity Pan5cat. ; Vanguiera Spinosa L. ; N. of a Maharshi R. ; (%{I}) f. neck , throat L. ; a rope or leather round the neck of a horse L. ; a necklace , collar , ornament for the neck L.
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=kaNTha&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
But it seems to be from : kaN cl. 1. P. %{kaNati} , %{cakANa} , %{kaNiSyati} , %{akaNIt} , or %{akANIt} , %{kaNitA} , to become small ; to sound , cry Dha1tup. xiii , 6 ; to go , approach Dha1tup. xix , 32: cl. 10. P. %{kANayati} , to wink , close the eye with the lids or lashes Dha1tup. xxx , 41: Caus. %{kANayati} (aor. %{acIkaNat} and %{acakANat} Pat. on Pa1n2. 7-4 , 3) , to sigh , sound ; [cf. %{can} and %{kvan}.]
Halloran has a kinda "a type of vessel", (see http://www.sumerian.org/sumerian.pdf )
but kun-du seems good, too. Maybe it is a kun-d- (like the other possible root gan-d- , gunu about shine etc; btw Sum. kun means also shine)
I wonder if the meaning of Sum. kun [TAIL] (225x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium) wr. kun "tail; canal outlet" Akk. zibbatu could fit also to some *ken root. Maybe through a meaning of "cylindrical", like "round" etc. Not sure about that.
About "kanthon" pack-ass, a similar word I think is Sum. kunga [EQUID] (792x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III) wr. kunga2; kunga; anšekunga2; anše|BAR×AN|; anšekunga "an equid, probably a donkey-onager cross" Akk. parû
which seems like a kun with a -ga ending.
There is also a kundar, wr. kun-dar "an animal" Akk. šakkadirru
Also kungid, wr. kun-gid2 "a description of sheep"
I wonder if the meaning of Sum. kun [TAIL] (225x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium) wr. kun "tail; canal outlet" Akk. zibbatu could fit also to some *ken root. Maybe through a meaning of "cylindrical", like "round" etc. Not sure about that.,
Believe it or not I was also thinking the same few minutes ago :D .
Another word is κάνθων kanthon "pack-ass" (maybe an allusion to a meaning "dull, stupid"?)
Yes possible. :)
bout "kanthon" pack-ass, a similar word I think is Sum. kunga [EQUID] (792x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III) wr. kunga2; kunga; anšekunga2; anše|BAR×AN|; anšekunga "an equid, probably a donkey-onager cross" Akk. parû
which seems like a kun with a -ga ending.
There is also a kundar, wr. kun-dar "an animal" Akk. šakkadirru
Also kungid, wr. kun-gid2 "a description of sheep" .
Yup .
Mayrhofer says also "not clear" about kaNTha; but I agree that there is a big chance that a meaning "round, cylidrical" etc can give a meaning "neck, throat" and then "sound, cry" etc.
There is also the proposed root of Lat. cantare "to sing", keh₂n- (seems similar to *ken):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/keh%E2%82%82n-
Yup .
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0835
Hesychius has also a word κανθήλιος kanthelios = κάνθων which must be from κάνθων kanthon "pack-ass"; he says it means ὄνος onos "donkey", also μωρός moros "moron". In L.S. "pack-ass, ; ὄνος κ. Hermipp.9, X.Cyr.7.5.11, Pl.Smp.221e, etc.: metaph., ass, blockhead,
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkanqh%2Flios
Besides, there is another word in Hesychius κανθήλια (kanthelia - plural, neuter), meaning
A.panniers at the sides of a pack-saddle,
hence, any large baskets, for carrying grapes at the vintage, Hsch.: generally, pack-saddle, κ. καμηλικά kamelika [of camels?]
II. wooden frame that rises in a curve at a ship's stern, Hsch.
III. sg., κανθήλιον , τό, in Archit.,rafter, IG22.463.73. (Lat. cantherius, Vitr.4.2.3.)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkanqh%2Flia
Hesychius says also that Κανθήλια Kanthelia is the name of some mountains in Bithynia (in Asia Minor); and this reminded me another similar word for a mountain, Qendil or Qandil mountains in Kurdistan (I'm trying the Iranian connection :D ).
:O exciting! .
As for a meaning "cylindrical", the word in Greek (κύλινδρος kylindros) is from κυλίνδω kylindō, “I roll”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%8D%CE%BB%CE%B9%CE%BD%CE%B4%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
The Kyl- (kul-) part is said to be from *skel:
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1729
The rest is unexplained, but maybe it was a ind- like in this Sum. word:
inda [TUBE] wr. inda2 "tube".
I roll (the tube)... :D
:-0
Interesting again :) .
Hello, Nirjhar,
It's about kaNati etc, you have already posted, more specifically about the meaning "to go, approach".
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=kaNati&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
Compared perhaps to this Sum. word:
kunu [APPROACH] (4x: Old Babylonian) wr. ku-nu "to approach" Akk. qerēbu "to be/come close"; sanāqu ša nakri "to approach, advance on someone with hostile intent".
In Greek, the most close meaning I can think of (concerning also a *ken root) is a verb κονέω koneo "to run, hurry" etc, mostly found in compound words, as in διάκονος diakonos ("deacon") = messenger, courier, servant; (biblical) minister, deacon.
δῐᾰ- (dia-) + Proto-Indo-European *kón-os, from *ken- (“to set oneself in motion”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%CE%B9%CE%AC%CE%BA%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
In Pokorny this is in *ken-4 root 'to strain, strive eagerly'.
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0911
yet not Indic cognates here.
The Sumerian word is good yes :) . Yes I am surprised why the Indo-Aryan words are not listed :/ .
Nirjhar, some thoughts I've made today:
κονέω (of deacon etc) like "run, hurry") in my lexicon is thought also to be connected to the *ken root for "ashes, dust" etc (like "I run" > "I am producing dust"). I was thinking that if Sum. kunu means "approach so to attack the enemy" that causes a lot of dust with all this troops approaching / running.
Another thing: according to a note (in dnghu Pokorny's roots) : "Root / lemma: ken-2, kenǝ-, keni-, kenu- : `to rub, scrape off; ashes' must have come from zero grade of an extended Root / lemma: ā̆s-, therefrom azd-, azg(h)- : `to burn' into ā̆sk-en with the suffix -en. This assumption is proved by alb. geg. (*askini) hini `ash' [common alb. ski- > hi- phonetic mutation]."
That reminded me Pokorny's (s)kand root we were talking about (in Indic as (s')cand-), about words like gan-d etc; Mayrhofer was mentioning also Hirt's opinion about a root *(s)kwe(n)d for Gr. σποδός spodos "ashes" etc.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dspodo%2Fs
Now, since Gr. κόνις konis for "ashes, dust" is connected to κονέω (of "deacon") "rush, hurry, run" etc, I can imagine a "(s)kwe(n)d" like root meaning "harry" etc, that is *spewd and a Gr. word σπεύδω speudo; the noun is σπουδή spoude "haste".
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dspoudh%2F
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%80%CE%B5%CF%8D%CE%B4%CF%89
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/spewd-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D6%83%D5%B8%D5%B5%D5%A9#Old_Armenian
Also about kantha etc, I've noticed at Myrhofer's "Worterbuch" a word kandhara "neck" which perhaps is connected with kantha, according to some, as he says:
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=kandhara&direct=se
He is reffering also to H. Hendricksen's view that kandhara is from an (unatested obviously) *kandha and ultimately from a (vedic) word skandha "shoulder" (the notion again about "round" etc:
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=skandha&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
So, while I'm not sure if this happened as dnghu says (about *ken for ashes), it seems that there is evidence for a kind of *(s)ken root, possibly also similar to Hirts *(s)kwe/n/d/- root (with a possible th/d alteration).
I was thinking that if Sum. kunu means "approach so to attack the enemy" that causes a lot of dust with all this troops approaching / running.
Yes possible :) .
Also about kantha etc, I've noticed at Myrhofer's "Worterbuch" a word kandhara "neck" which perhaps is connected with kantha, according to some, as he says:
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=kandhara&direct=se
He is reffering also to H. Hendricksen's view that kandhara is from an (unatested obviously) *kandha and ultimately from a (vedic) word skandha "shoulder" (the notion again about "round" etc:
Kandha is attested in Indic yes,but with kh / k and also d/dh :
skandhá 13627 skandhá m. ʻ shoulder, upper part of back ʼ AV., ʻ trunk of tree, mass (esp. of an army) ʼ MBh., skándhas<-> n. ʻ branching top of a tree ʼ RV. [Absence of any trace of initial s -- in Kafiri and Dardic supports possibility of IA. *kandha -- beside sk° (unnecessarily assumed in ODBL 438 for NIA. k -- which is dissim. from kh<-> before dh as prob. in Aś. agi -- k(h)aṁdha -- )]
Pa. khandha -- m. ʻ shoulder, back, tree -- trunk ʼ, °aka<-> m. ʻ division, chapter ʼ; Pk. khaṁdha -- , ka° m. ʻ shoulder, tree trunk, wall ʼ; Ash. kándä ʻ stem, trunk ʼ, Kt. kə́nē, Wg. kaná; Paš.lauṛ. xānd ʻ shoulder ʼ, ar. kandīˊ, kuṛ. kōn (obl. kānda); Shum. kandam ʻ my shoulder ʼ; Gaw. kandík ʻ shoulder ʼ; Bshk. kān (with rising tone) ʻ shoulder, upper part of back ʼ; Tor. kan ʻ shoulder ʼ, Sv. kandike, Phal. kān, kan; S. kandhu m. ʻ neck, back of neck ʼ, °dho m. ʻ back of neck, edge ʼ, °dhī f. ʻ bank of river ʼ, °dhī pāso ʻ neighbourhood ʼ; L.awāṇ. khaddhā ʻ multitude ʼ, P. khandhā m. ʻ mass, multitude, flock of sheep or goats, herd of buffaloes ʼ, ludh. kannhā m. ʻ shoulder ʼ, (Ambala) kandhā m.; Ku. kã̄d, kã̄dho, kāno ʻ shoulder ʼ, gng. kāni ʻ neck ʼ; N. kã̄dh, kã̄d ʻ shoulder, back ʼ (whence khãduwā, °dilo ʻ heavy, solid ʼ, kãdheuli, khãde° ʻ stick carried by coolies across shoulders to take the weight of a load ʼ); A. kāndh, kān ʻ shoulder ʼ, kandhā, kanā ʻ large bundle of reeds &c. carried on the shoulder ʼ, kã̄dhi ʻ pent house, veranda, eaves ʼ; B. kã̄dh ʻ shoulder ʼ, kã̄dhā ʻ edge, bank ʼ; Or. kāndha, kã̄dhā ʻ shoulder ʼ; Bi. kānhe ʻ on the shoulder ʼ, (Patna) khandh, °dhā ʻ large area of cultivated land ʼ; Mth. kānh, kanhā ʻ shoulder ʼ, Bhoj. kānh, Aw.lakh. kã̄dh; H. kã̄dh, °dhā m. ʻ shoulder ʼ, kandh m. ʻ tree trunk, thick branch ʼ; G. khã̄dhi, kã̄° f. ʻ shoulder ʼ; M. khã̄d, °dā m. ʻ shoulder, back of neck ʼ, f. ʻ large bough ʼ; Ko. khã̄ndhu m. ʻ shoulder ʼ; Si. kan̆da ʻ shoulder, tree trunk, collection, mass ʼ, kan̆du ʻ mountain ʼ (< -- aka -- ). -- With metath. K. nakh, dat. °khas m. ʻ shoulder ʼ? <-> Bshk. khan m. ʻ hill ʼ, Tor. Mai. khān, Chil. Gau. kān (→ Par. khándi IIFL i 265) poss. all < skandhá -- , but prob. like Tor. (Grierson) khaṇḍ ʻ hill ʼ, Phal. khāṇ, khaṇ, Sh.koh. khŭṇ m., gur. khonn, pales. khōṇə, jij. khɔ̈̄ṇ rather < khaṇḍá -- AO xviii 240. -- X maṇi -- 2 q.v.
skandhayati, skandhika -- , *skandhiya -- , skándhya -- , *skāndhika -- ; *skandhakāṣṭha -- , *skandhakīla -- , *skandhataṭa -- , *skandhapaṭṭa -- , *skandhavarti -- , *skandhāvara -- , *skandhāvāra -- ; kālaskandha -- .
Addenda: skandhá -- : S.kcch. kandh m. ʻ back of neck ʼ, kandho m. ʻ shoulder ʼ; WPah.kṭg. kannh m. ʻ shoulder ʼ, kc. kānh, jaun. kānn m.; kṭg. (kc.) khándɔ m. ʻ big box along the wall of living room for grain ʼ.
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.4.soas.785500
Hindi also has kandha 'shoulder' .
https://translate.google.com/#en/hi/shoulder
also Bengali :
https://translate.google.com/#bn/en/%E0%A6%95%E0%A6%BE%E0%A6%A8%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%A7
So, while I'm not sure if this happened as dnghu says (about *ken for ashes), it seems that there is evidence for a kind of *(s)ken root, possibly also similar to Hirts *(s)kwe/n/d/- root (with a possible th/d alteration).
Looks good Kyriakos ! :) .
I am also thinking if : ''Old English sculdor "shoulder," from West Germanic *skuldro (source also of Middle Dutch scouder, Dutch schouder, Old Frisian skoldere, Middle Low German scholder, Old High German scultra, German Schulter), of unknown origin, perhaps related to shield''
http://www.etymonline.com/word/shoulder
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shoulder
Is also from the root you say n->l alternation :D
^ alteration .
:ο interesting thought! or it would be the opposite (l>n) ? like in dher-dhron > dendron? the origin perhaps is *(s)kel:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/skuldr%C3%B4
but maybe is from *kwel as *(s)kwel-!, (denoting something circular?)
I remembered Dziebel's theory again about Slav *pepelu ‘ashes’ (he supposes to be from a double *kwel - do you think it could be (s)kwel- > (s)kwen- ?
In Hesychiys there is also a rare word τόνθων tonthon, meaning the flesh of the spinal / back of an animal; perhaps it could be from a (s)kwenth- root (kweHnth - tonth-)?.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Da)%2Fkanqa
Also a similar word is τένθης tenthes "gourmand" (one enjoying eating"):
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dte%2Fnqhs
Also τενθεία tentheia "gluttony":
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dtenqei%2Fa
There is also τένδω tendo "eat, gnaw" in Hesychius:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dte%2Fndw
Maybe they are distant relatives with kantha (as throat / neck) etc. (?)
By the way the backbone / spinal of an animal is named also ἄκανθα akantha.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*t%3Aentry+group%3D43%3Aentry%3Dto%2Fnqwn
I remembered Dziebel's theory again about Slav *pepelu ‘ashes’ (he supposes to be from a double *kwel - do you think it could be (s)kwel- > (s)kwen- ?
Yes that is also possible :) .
Maybe they are distant relatives with kantha (as throat / neck) etc. (?)
can be ! :) .
About Proto Germanic skuldro "shoulder", I gave a look at a Celtic Lexicon, and there is a proto Celtic root resembling another one for "shield" but bouth without an "l".
"*skedo- 'wing, shoulder' [Noun]
GOlD: aIr. sciath [0 m] 'wing'
W: MW ysgwydd [f] 'shoulder'
BRET: MBret. scoaz, diou scoaz 'shoulders'
CO: OCo. scuid gl. scapula, MCo. dyw-scoth 'shoulders'
SEE: *sketo- 'shield'
ETYM: OIr. sciath may have the final -th rather than -d because of the
influence of the word for 'shield', OIr. sciath < *sketo-. However, it is also possible that sciath 'shield' was borrowed from Brittonic before the lenition of *t > th, and that seiath 'wing' is the original OIr. word for 'shield', with metaphorical change of meaning. The Brittonic words for 'shoulder' then must have a different etymology.
REF: LEIA S-44, GPC III: 3851. "
About this initial s-, it's funny that in modern Greek we say for some reason σκαθάρι skathari ("beetle"), σκόνη skoni ("dust") and σκαντζόχοιρος skantzokhiros ("hedgehog"), respectively for the ancient ones κάνθαρος kantharos ("beetle"), κόνις konis ("dust") and ακανθόχοιρος akanthokhoiros ("hedgehog"); maybe the initial s is for euphonic reason.
Now, I have a question about khanati as "trench, excavate, dig, dig up" etc.
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=ia&tran_input=kaNati&direct=se
Its form reminded me an arabic word "khandak" ("trench"), which seems to be a khan- with d and a final -ak. Here it is stated that it may have Persian origin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Trench
https://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%87%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%AC%CE%BA%CE%B9
Here that it might be a loanword in arabic from aramaic.
http://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/encyclopaedia-of-islam-1/khandak-SIM_4110?s.num=153&s.au=%22Wensinck%2C+A.J.%22&s.start=120
It is borrowed in Greek as χαντάκι khandaki, the most usuall word for "ditch etc"
http://www.wordreference.com/gren/%CF%87%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%AC%CE%BA%CE%B9
Also, the venetian word for the island of Crete, "Candia" was taken from this word (because of its fortified capital city named Khandax).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Candia
Yeah its from khan :
1 khan cl. 1. P. %{kha4nati} (impf. %{a4khanat} ; perf. %{cakhAna} , 3. pl. %{cakhnur} R. i ; A1. %{cakhne} Pa1n2. 6-4 , 98 ; pr. p. A1. %{kha4namAna} RV. i , 179 , 6 MBh. iii , 1897 ; Impv. %{khanatAt} AitBr. [Pa1n2. 7-1 , 44 Ka1s3.] ; Pot. %{khanyAt} or %{khAyAt} Vop. ; Pass. %{khAya4te} [TS. vi S3Br. iii] or %{khanyate} MBh. xii R. Pan5cat. ; inf. %{khanitum} Pan5cat.) , to dig , dig up , delve , turn up the soil , excavate , root up RV. VS. AV. &c. ; to pierce (said of an arrow) Bhartr2. (v.l.): Caus. %{khAnayati} (once %{khan-} R. ii , 80 , 12) , to cause to dig or dig up S3a1n3khS3r. MBh. &c.: Desid. %{cikhaniSati} Pa1n2. 6-4 , 42 Ka1s3.: Intens. %{caGkhanyate} or %{cAkhAyate} Pa1n2. 6-4 , 43 ; %{caGkhanti} or %{cAkhAti} Vop. [cf. $ , $ , $ ; Old Germ. {gine1m} , {gino1m} ; Mod. Germ. {ga0hne} ; Angl. Sax. {cina} , {cinan} ; Lat. {cuniculus} , {canalis}.]
khaná 3810 khaná ʻ digging ʼ AV. [√khan]
K. khan m. ʻ hole, hollow made in grain, breach in a river bank ʼ; Ku. gng. khaṇ m. ʻ digging ʼ; N. khan -- jot ʻ tillage ʼ.
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.1.soas.189962
maybe the initial s is for euphonic reason.
Interesting :) .
Nirjhar, how do you think about this Sum. word?
kalak [TRENCH] (7x: Lagash II, Old Babylonian) wr. gala3; gala4; gala5; kala3; ki-la2 "excavation, trench; storeroom" Akk. kalakku
Could be from *(s)kel? and what about "khandak" and khan? (khan/ khal? l/n)
Now OED suggests for example Canal comes from :
cane (n.)
late 14c., "long slender woody stem," from Old French cane "reed, cane, spear" (13c., Modern French canne), from Latin canna "reed, cane," from Greek kanna, perhaps from Babylonian-Assyrian qanu "tube, reed" (compare Hebrew qaneh, Arabic qanah "reed"), which may come from Sumerian-Akkadian gin "reed." Sense of "length of cane used as a walking stick" is from 1580s..
We already have Sanskrit kaNDa ''[or %{kANDa4} TS. vii] , %{as} , %{am} m. n. (ifc. f. %{A} , or %{I}) [cf. %{khaNDa} , with which in some of its senses %{kANDa} is confounded] a single joint of the stalk or stem of a plant , such as a bamboo or reed or cane (i.e. the portion from one knot to another cf. %{tri-k-}) , any part or portion , section , chapter , division of a work or book (cf. %{tri-k-}) , any distinct portion or division of an action or of a sacrificial rite (as that belonging to the gods or to the manes) AV. TS. VS. ; a separate department or subject (e.g. %{karma-kANDa} , the department of the Veda treating of sacrificial rites Ka1s3. on Pa1n2. 4-2 , 51) AV. TS. S3Br. R. ; a stalk , stem , branch , switch MBh. R. Mn. i , 46 , 48 Kaus3. Sus3r. ; the part of the trunk of a tree whence the branches proceed W. ; a cluster , bundle W. ; a multitude , heap , quantity (ifc.) Pa1n2. 4-2 , 51 Ka1s3. ; an arrow MBh. xiii , 265 Hit. ; a bone of the arms or legs , long bone (cf. %{kANDa-bhagna} and %{pucchakANDa4}) Sus3r. ; a rudder (?) R. ii , 89 , 19 ; a kind of square measure Pa1n2. 4-1 , 23 Vop. vii , 55 ; a cane , reed , ....''
See here also :
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.0.soas.1788724
There is also a possible Tamil kaṇ ʻ joint of bamboo or sugarcane ʼ .
I think this and others can be related ultimately to the root *(s)kel /*(s)ken , (s)kwel- / (s)kwen- ,(s)kwe/n/d/- :D
I am not sure but perhaps this on is a reduplication :
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cuniculus
(s)kwenth- also of course.
Lets also add this one :D :
''Proto-Indo-European (*k’en-/*k’on-/)*k’n- ‘knot, knob’: Old Icelandic
knappr ‘knob’, knúi ‘knuckle’, knúta ‘knuckle-bone, joint-bone’, knútr
‘knot’, knýttr ‘knotted, crippled’, knykill ‘small knot’, knöttr ‘ball’;
Norwegian knast ‘knot’; Swedish knagg ‘knot’; Old English cnotta ‘knot’;
Middle English cnap ‘knob’, cnag ‘knot, peg’, cnarre ‘knot’, cnarri
‘knotty, gnarled’, cnobbe ‘knob’, cnobbel ‘knob’, cnop ‘knob’, cnoppe
‘knob, bud’, cnorre ‘knot, excrescence’, cnottel ‘little knot’, cnotti
‘knotty’, cnottien ‘knot’, cnurned ‘gnarled, knotty’, cnokil ‘knuckle’;
Middle Dutch knolle ‘clod, ball’; Middle Low German knobbe ‘knot,
knob, bud’, knotte ‘knot, knob’, knökel ‘knuckle’; Middle High German
knolle ‘clod, ball’, knotze ‘knot, knob’; New High German Knast ‘knot’,
Knorren ‘knot, knotty protuberance’, Knopf ‘knot, knob, button’, Knolle
‘clod, lump; knot, knob, protuberance; bulb, tuber’, Knöchel ‘knuckle,
ankle (bone)’, Knochen ‘bone’, Knoten ‘knot’, Knubbe ‘knot’. Watkins
1985:19 *gen- and 2000:26 *g(e)n- ‘to compress into a ball’; Orël
2003:219 Proto-Germanic *knuttōn, 219 *knūtaz; Kroonen 2013:298—
299 Proto-Germanic *knūþan- ~ *knuttan- ‘knot’; De Vries 1977:320,
322, and 323; Onions 1966:508 and 509; Klein 1971:404; Kluge—Mitzka
1967:383—384, 384, and 385; Kluge—Seebold 1989:384 and 385.''
From Bomhard .
Yeah, why not :D At least there is a sured attestation for an alteration n/l in kanag / kalag / kalam (for the land of Sumer).
Concerning the meaning "sharp" I remember this word (whith a long o, which seems problematic; nevertheless I'm putting it here):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%E1%BF%B6%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
From Proto-Indo-European *ḱeh₃- (“to sharpen”).
κῶνος (kônos) f pine cone, pine tree, cone or peak of a helmet; (geometry) cone.
He actually lists with the Dravidian ones too :
''Proto-Nostratic (n.) *k’aŋ-a ‘knot, knob, joint’:
Derivative of:
(vb.) *k’aŋ- ‘to bend, twist, turn, or tie together’;
(n.) *k’aŋ-a ‘wreath, rope, cord, fiber, tie, band, string’
''A. Dravidian: Tamil kaṇ ‘joint in bamboo or cane’, kaṇu ‘joint of bamboo,
cane, etc., knuckle, joint of the spine, vertebra’, kaṇukkai ‘wrist’, kaṇukkāl
‘ankle’; Malayalam kaṇ, kaṇu, kaṇṇu, kaṇpu ‘joint in knot or cane’,
kaṇavu ‘node of bamboo, cane, etc.’, kaṇakkai, kaṇaṅkai ‘wrist’, kaṇakkāl,
kaṇaṅkāl ‘ankle’, kaṇippu ‘articulation of limbs’; Kota kaṇ ‘joint of
bamboo’; Toda koṇ ‘joint of bamboo or cane’; Kannaḍa kaṇ ‘joint in
reeds, sticks, etc.’, gaṇalu ‘knuckle of the fingers, joint or knot of any
cane’, gaṇike ‘knot or joint’; Tuḷu kāra kaṇṇu̥ ‘ankle’; Telugu kanu, kannu
‘joint in cane or reed’, kaṇupu, gaṇupu ‘joint, knot, node (of bamboo,
sugarcane, etc.)’; Kolami gana ‘knot in tree’; Naikṛi khan ‘joint in
bamboo’; Gondi gana, ganakay ‘wrist’; Kuṛux xann ‘place on bamboo or
cane where side shoot was cut away’; Brahui xan ‘knot in wood’.
Burrow—Emeneau 1984:110, no. 1160.''
Maybe also a barber or kind is someone who makes your heads like a ball by cutting your hair :P :D
About canal etc, Giacomo has already said that sillon is from Sum. sil and silig.
From Proto-Indo-European *ḱeh₃- (“to sharpen”).
κῶνος (kônos) f pine cone, pine tree, cone or peak of a helmet; (geometry) cone.
Very interesting :) .
Maybe also a barber or kind is someone who makes your heads like a ball by cutting your hair :P :D
Yup ! :D .
"(s)kwenth- also of course."
We have to put this root also *(s)kwey? (-n/th)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/spina#Latin
spina: thorn, spine, prickle etc.
From Proto-Italic *speinā, from Proto-Indo-European *spey- (“sharp point”).
:D
Also, about a possible **(s)kwent, hmaybe we could add this root (about movement, but also shining etc [just like in *ken(d) etc: ]
Root / lemma: sp(h)e(n)d-
English meaning: to shiver, to shake
German meaning: `zucken, zappeln' and (about `flackern') `glaenzen' [shine]
Material: Old Indian spandatē `shrugs, jerks, hits, knocks from', spanda- m. `twitch, movement', snāyu-spanda- `Pulsschlag', spandana- m. `zuckend'; gr. σφενδόνη `Schleuder', σφαδάζω `zucke, zapple, bewege mich violent'(*σφn̥δ-); σφόνδυλος, σπόνδυλος m. `whirl an the spindle, etc. `; unnasalized σφεδανός, σφοδρός `violent, keen, eager'; older ndl. spat `cramp', nhd. Spat(h), mhd. spat, ostfries. spat(t), spad(de) `tumefaction am Pferdefuß' (germ. d, dd besides t, tt kann new Variation sein), nd. ndl. spatten `twitch, wriggle';
here lit. spį́stu, spį́sti `erglönzen' [to shine], spìndžiu, spindė́ti `gleam', lett. atspîst `wiedererglönzen', spîdêt `gleam, gleam, shine', ablaut. spuôžs `gleaming, bright, luminous' (*spandús), spuôdrs `gleaming, durchsichtig, clean' (*spondros).
References: WP. II 664, Trautmann 275;
See also: compare *sp(h)eng- `gleam'.
Page(s): 989
---------------------------
Note: some add to this list a Gr. noun σπινθήρ spinther "spark" (about the meaning "gleam").
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dspinqh%2Fr
Maybe also the Latin word scintilla "spark" etc
Most likely from Proto-Indo-European *ski-nto-, from *skey-, *ski- (“to gleam, shine”), which is the source of English shine.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scintilla#Latin
The root of "shine", here:
From Middle English shinen, schinen (preterite schon, past participle schinen), from Old English scīnan ("to shine, flash; be resplendent"; preterite scān, past participle scinen), from Proto-Germanic *skīnaną (“to shine”). Cognate with West Frisian skine, skyne, Low German schienen, Dutch schijnen, German scheinen, Danish and Norwegian Bokmål skinne, Norwegian Nynorsk and Swedish skina.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shine
From Proto-Germanic *skīnaną, from an Proto-Indo-European root *skai-, *ski-. Cognate with Old Frisian skīna (West Frisian skine, skyne), Old Saxon skīnan (Low German schienen), Old Dutch skīnan (Dutch schijnen), Old High German skīnan (German scheinen), Old Norse skína (Danish skinne, Swedish skina), Gothic �������������� (skeinan). The Indo-European root is also the source of Ancient Greek σκιά (skiá), Proto-Slavic *sěnь (Russian сень (senʹ)).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scinan#Old_English
From Proto-Italic *speinā, from Proto-Indo-European *spey- (“sharp point”).
Yes looks sharp this one! :D .
Also, about a possible **(s)kwent, hmaybe we could add this root (about movement, but also shining etc [just like in *ken(d) etc: ]
Looks good! :) .
Maybe also the Latin word scintilla "spark" etc .
Yup :) .
I remember also Skt. "pinda" (denoting spherical object etc), which could be connected, I think, (if we can accept the heretical view about an ancient kwi>pi, or something like):
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=pinda&direct=se
I think also that a κῶνος konos = "(pine) cone" is an intresting object (for a comparison with *ken), because its form is both sharp and spherical (from the other side of it).
I remember also Skt. "pinda" (denoting spherical object etc), which could be connected, I think, (if we can accept the heretical view about an ancient kwi>pi, or something like):
True :).
I think also that a κῶνος konos = "(pine) cone" is an intresting object (for a comparison with *ken), because its form is both sharp and spherical (from the other side of it).
I agree :).
See also this one :) :
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=pindika&direct=au
1 piND cl. 1. A1. 10. P. %{piNDate} , %{-Dayati} , to roll into a lump or ball , put together , join , unite , gather , assemble Dha1tup. viii , 21 ; xxxii , 110 (prob. Nom. fr. next).
About piND, Mayrhofer states again "not clear"; he mentions also the many forms of this word, like peDa, peDha, peNDa etc, which have made some people to think about a foreign origin. He makes also a reference to Armenian pind "compact, firm", supposingly from the iranian *pinda, which comes most probably from Sanskrit. Wikipedia has also another etymology (from *bendh-):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D5%BA%D5%AB%D5%B6%D5%A4
Also (since I have mentioned Qandil Mountains), there is a mountain range in Greece called the Pindos Mountains (Πίνδος Pindos, in English Pindus), called often "the spine of Greece", since it runs through the biggest part og the country. Similar is the name of poet Pindar (Πίνδαρος Pindaros in Greek), which seems to be from the same root (though there is no certainty for the etymology).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pindus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pindar
Similar words with "Pindar" in connection to "pind":
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=pindara&direct=au
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pindari
There is no etymology also for Pindos; yet I think that it could have the same source with Armenian "pind"; it could mean for example something like firm or strong (a natural name for mountains); A connection to "spina" (from **(s)pind- is tempting - ; it could remind Gr. spondylos ("vertebra"); a strong part of the body.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%80%CF%8C%CE%BD%CE%B4%CF%85%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
In Greek we use the word rhakhis, another word for "spine" to denote the ridge of a mountain: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rachis
Another possible connection, denoting also a circular movement, could be with the root of "spin" and "spider" (spider is "spinthro" in old German).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/spider
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/spin%C3%BEr%C3%B4
From Proto-Indo-European *(s)pend-, *(s)pen- (“to pull, stretch, spin”).
Though I think the root is not so clear;FFor example, here it is mentioned a IE root *(s)penǝ- :
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/spinnan%C4%85
Now, there is a question about the root of the word "sphere" ( < Gr. σφαῖρα sphaira); origin uknown; comparison to Persian sepehr, “sky”); possibly from the root of σπαίρω spairo meaning "gasp, pant, quiver" .
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sphere
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%86%CE%B1%E1%BF%96%CF%81%CE%B1#Ancient_Greek
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dspai%2Frw
A similar word to σφαῖρα sphaira is σφυρόν sphyron "ankle":
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dsfuro%2Fn
About the persian sepehr = "sky", wikipedia says: "From Middle Persian (spihr), from Old Persian (compare Ancient Greek Σπιθρι-δάτης (Spithri-dátēs), Parthian (ispēr) , or possibly Sanskrit. Compare σφαῖρα (sphaîra)." Yet I don't know which Sanskrit word is meant here.
See also this conversation:
https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/sphere-%D8%B3%D9%BE%D9%87%D8%B1.734387/
This Old English spithra "spider" ( > spinthro) reminds Old persian spithra (> sepehr) for "sky". Could the root of "sphere" be related to all the other stuff we were talking about.
There is no etymology also for Pindos; yet I think that it could have the same source with Armenian "pind"; it could mean for example something like firm or strong (a natural name for mountains); A connection to "spina" (from **(s)pind- is tempting - ; it could remind Gr. spondylos ("vertebra"); a strong part of the body. .
Beautiful :) .
This Old English spithra "spider" ( > spinthro) reminds Old persian spithra (> sepehr) for "sky". Could the root of "sphere" be related to all the other stuff we were talking about.
Yup ! :D .
:D Meanwhile, σπαίρω in my lexicon is connected with Skt. sphurati "quiver, palpitate", having also many other interesting meanings like "dart,spurn, shine, gleam, twinkle, glisten" etc:
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=sphurati&direct=au
sphurati is supposed to be from *sperH "to kick" (like "kick the ball") There is also a proto-celtic sɸerā "heel" - from Proto-Indo-European *spérH-eh₂, from Proto-Indo-European *sperH- (“to kick”). Cognate with Germanic *spurą.
English "spear" is also said to be from the same root:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/spear
So, it seems to me that "sphere" and "spear" are connected :D
Yeah :D and interestingly there is also sphAla 'quivering'.
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=sphal&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
It can also mean to swell it seems :
13821 *spharati2 ʻ swells ʼ. 2. *sphurati2. [~ sphuláti2 ʻ accumulates ʼ Dhātup. -- √sphar2]
1. Pa. pharati ʻ pervades, fills, expands ʼ.
2. N. phurnu ʻ to swell ʼ, Si. puranavā.
SPHAL1 ʻ move quickly, quiver, jerk ʼ: sphalati, sphāla -- , *sphālayati; āsphāla -- , āsphālayati, *utsphāla -- 1, *ut -- sphālayati, *visphalati; -- √sphar1, √sphur.
*SPHAL2 ʻ swell ʼ: *ut -- sphalati Add., *ut -- sphāla -- 2 Add.; -- √sphar2. .
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.4.soas.957765
So there seems to be a l/r variation .
Can we add this? :
swell (v.)
Old English swellan "grow or make bigger" (past tense sweall, past participle swollen), from Proto-Germanic *swelnan (source also of Old Saxon swellan, Old Norse svella, Old Frisian swella, Middle Dutch swellen, Dutch zwellen, Old High German swellan, German schwellen), of unknown origin. Of emotions from late 14c., of music from 1749. Related: swelled; swollen; swelling. .
https://www.etymonline.com/word/swell
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/swell#English
1 sphal (v.l. for %{sphul} , and occurring only with prep. cf. %{skhal}) cl. 1. P. %{sphalati} , to quiver , shake , vibrate , burst , break &c.: Caus. %{sphAlayati} see %{A-sphal}. [Cf. Gk. $ ; Lat. &383405[1270 ,1] {fallo} ; Lith. {pu4lti} ; Germ. {fallen} ; Eng. {fall}.]
.............................................................................................
1 sphar cl. 6. P. %{spharati} , = (and v.l. for) %{sphur} (q.v.): Caus. %{sphArayati} to expand , open or diffuse widely ( below) ; to bend , discharge (a bow) R.
.............................................................................................
1 sphul (later collateral of %{sphur} ; only with prep. see %{ni-} , %{-niH} , and %{vi4-sphul} ; cf. %{sphal}) cl. 6. P. (Dha1tup. xxviii , 96) %{sphulati} (pf. %{pusphola} fut. %{sphulitA} &c. Gr.) , to tremble , throb , vibrate Dha1tup. ; to dart forth , appear ib. ; to collect ib. ; to slay , kill Naigh. ii , 19. [For cognate words see under %{sphal}.]
...........................................................................................
1 sphur 1 (cf. %{sphar}) cl. 6. P. (Dha1tup. xxviii , 95) %{sphura4ti} (m. c. also %{-te} ; p. %{sphurat} and %{sphuramANa} [qq.vv.] ; only in pres. base , but see %{apa-sphur} ; Gr. also pf. %{pusphora} , %{pusphure} ; fut. %{sphuritA} , %{sphuriSyati} ; aor. %{asphorIt} ; Prec. %{sphUryAt} ; inf. %{sphuritum}) , to spurn RV. AV. ; to dart , bound , rebound , spring RV. MBh. Ka1v. ; to tremble , throb , quiver , palpitate , twitch (as the nerves of the arm S3ak.) , struggle Kaus3. MBh. &c. ; to flash , glitter , gleam , glisten , twinkle , sparkle MaitrUp. R. &c. ; to shine , be brilliant or distinguished Ra1jat. Katha1s. Ma1rkP. ; to break forth , burst out plainly or visibly , start into view , be evident or manifest , become displayed or expanded Nr2isUp. MBh. &c. ; to hurt , destroy Naigh. ii , 19: Caus. %{sphorayati} (aor. %{apusphurat} or %{apuspharat}) , to stretch , draw or bend (a bow) Bhat2t2. [1271,1] ; to adduce an argument S3am2k. Sch. ; to cause to shine , eulogize , praise excessively Pan5cad. ; %{sphurayati} , to fill with (inser.) Lalit.: Desid. %{pusphuriSati} Gr.: Intens. %{posphuryate} , %{posphorti}. [Cf. Gk. $ ; Lat. {sperno} ; Lith. &383704[1271 ,1] {spi4rti} ; Germ. {sporo} , {spor} , {Sporn} ; Eng. {spur} , {spurn}.]
2 sphur 2 (ifc.) quivering , trembling , throbbing S3is3. ii , 14.
...........................................................................................
Can you check Manfred , what he has to say on sphal 'swell' .
BTW Pokorny's Kick root seems to be this :
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1847
not sure if this related :
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1845
I was thinking also about the root (*sper) of σπεῖρα speira ("coil, spiral" etc, especially since a word σπάρτον sparton "rope, cable" seems to be close to Sparta, possibly connected to the word for "city" (spur etc); maybe the wall fortifications of the cities were circular; we somehow must return periodically to the root(s) of the "city" (see also the proposed *kwel / *kwer etc for nagara etc).
Of course Sparta had not walls, at least in classical times... :)
About σπινθήρ spinther "spark", it is interesting that Hesychius gives also a meaning ἀκοντισμός akontismos, which means the throwing of an ἀκοντιon ακοντιον (javelin).
(btw, in modern colloquial Greek the "n" of σπινθήρ is dropped and we say usually σπίθα spitha for "spark".)
Yes it is again great to get the indications :) .
About Swell a similar Indic word is this :
phulla 9092 phulla ʻ expanded, blown (of flowers) ʼ MBh., ʻ inflated (of cheeks) ʼ Bālar., ʻ open ʼ (in su -- phulla -- R.), n. ʻ fullblown flower ʼ KālP. [NIA. shows basic mng. ʻ expanded, swollen ʼ rather than ʻ split, burst ʼ assumed in BR. <-> Semant. as ʻ flower ʼ cf. praśūna -- s.v. prasūna -- , and as ʻ white in the eye, cataract ʼ cf. puṣpa -- m. ʻ albugo ʼ Suśr. -- Cf. *phura -- ]
Pa. phulla -- ʻ blossoming ʼ; Pk. phulla -- ʻ opened, blossoming ʼ, n. ʻ flower ʼ; Ash. pul ʻ testicles ʼ; Gaw. phul ʻ the white of the eye ʼ (→ Psht. pūl ʻ film on the eye ʼ: but EVP 56 < Av. pūiti -- ); K. aḍa -- phŏlu ʻ half -- blown ʼ, phulu m. ʻ cataract of eyes ʼ; S. phulu m. ʻ flower, the menses ʼ, phulo m. ʻ albugo ʼ; L. phull m. ʻ flower ʼ, awāṇ. phul (and X palāśá -- q.v.); P. phull m. ʻ flower, menstrual flow, white speck in eye (= phollā m.) ʼ; WPah. bhad. phull n. ʻ cataract ʼ, bhal. phulli f. ʻ leucoma of eye ʼ, khaś. phull ʻ blister due to burn ʼ, (Joshi) fūl m. ʻ flower ʼ, fulā m. ʻ cataract ʼ; Ku. phūl ʻ flower, testicle ʼ, phulo ʻ cataract ʼ; N. phul ʻ flower, menstrual flow, egg ʼ, phulo ʻ cataract, white streak in the nail ʼ; A. phul ʻ flower, film on eye ʼ; B. phul ʻ flower, menstrual flow, cataract (= phuli) ʼ; Or. phula ʻ flower, menses, placenta, cataract ʼ, phulā ʻ swelling, inflation, frog spawn, cataract ʼ, phul(u)kā ʻ swollen ʼ; Bi. Mth. Bhoj. Aw.lakh. H. phūl m. ʻ flower ʼ, OMarw. phūla; G. phūl n. ʻ flower, menstrual flow, opacity of eye ʼ, phūlũ n. ʻ cataract ʼ; M. phūl n. ʻ flower, ovary, albugo ʼ; Ko. phūla ʻ flower ʼ; Si. pil ʻ expanded ʼ, pul ʻ open flower, peacock's tail ʼ, pola ʻ cataract ʼ. -- X púṣya -- 1, bhásman -- qq.v.
phúllati; *phullataila -- , *phullapūra -- , *phullavāṭikā -- , *phullēndra -- ; utphulla -- , praphulla -- , saṁphulla -- ; *ēraṇḍaphullikā -- , *navaphulla -- .
Addenda: phulla -- [But T. Burrow Tau vii 137 < *sphutlo -- , √sphut/ṭ ʻ to bloom ʼ with Pk. ph -- ]
S.kcch. phaull m. ʻ flower ʼ, phaullo m. ʻ white speck in eye ʼ, phaullā m.pl. ʻ parched juwar ʼ; WPah.kṭg. (kc.) phūˊl m. ʻ flower ʼ, poet. phulṛu m.; J. fūl.
†*phullabhūta -- .
9093 phúllati ʻ expands, opens (as a flower) ʼ MBh. [phulla -- ]
Pa. phullita -- ʻ blossomed ʼ; Pk. phullaï ʻ blossoms ʼ; K. phŏlun ʻ to expand, open (as a flower) ʼ; S. phulaṇu ʻ to blossom ʼ, L. phullaṇ; P. phullṇā ʻ to swell ʼ; WPah. (Joshi) fulṇu ʻ to bloom, become old ʼ; Ku. phulṇo ʻ to swell, blossom, become overgrown, grow grey ʼ, phulphulīṇo ʻ to get puffed up ʼ, phulyūṇo ʻ to flatter ʼ (caus. of pass. *phulīṇo); N. phulnu ʻ to swell, blossom, thrive ʼ, phulinu ʻ to be puffed up ʼ (whence phulyāunu ʻ to flatter ʼ); A. phuliba ʻ to blossom ʼ; B. phulā ʻ to swell, blossom ʼ; Or. phulibā ʻ to swell, expand ʼ; Mth. phulab ʻ to blossom ʼ, OAw. phūlaï; H. phūlnā, (with intr. u) phulnā ʻ to swell, blossom ʼ; OMarw. phūlaï ʻ blossoms ʼ; G. phulvũ ʻ to swell, blossom ʼ, M. phulṇẽ.
Addenda: phullati: WPah.kṭg. (kc.) phúlṇõ, phúlhṇõ ʻ to blossom, open (of a flower), swell ʼ, caus. kc. phəlauṇo, Wkc. phəleuṇo; -- phúlhṇõ X †*phullabhūta -- .
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.2.soas.1810146
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=phull&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%81%E0%A4%B2%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B2
I'll check Mayrhofer about sphal-; about "swell", I think that a *swel root could be in Sumerian a word like "zal" and zal, wr. zal, if you recall, means "to get up early; to finish, come to an end; to dissolve, melt, disintegrate, break down, collapse; to quake; to pass time" (Akk. naharmumu; naharmuţu; qatû; râbu); another zal also "shine".
In Greek there are also some words with spha-d- (maybe l/d connected with sphal-?), supposingly connected with the same root of sphere, with a meaning of violent movement etc like σφαδάζω sphadazo "toss the body about, struggle; chafe, be strongly moved or excite" or σφοδρός sphodros "vehement, violent, excessive etc":
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dsfodro%2Fs
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*s111%3Aentry+group%3D172%3Aentry%3Dsfada%2F%7Czw
I think that a *swel root could be in Sumerian a word like "zal" and zal, wr. zal, if you recall, means "to get up early; to finish, come to an end; to dissolve, melt, disintegrate, break down, collapse; to quake; to pass time" (Akk. naharmumu; naharmuţu; qatû; râbu); another zal also "shine".
Absolutely :) .
In Greek there are also some words with spha-d- (maybe l/d connected with sphal-?), supposingly connected with the same root of sphere, with a meaning of violent movement etc like σφαδάζω sphadazo "toss the body about, struggle; chafe, be strongly moved or excite" or σφοδρός sphodros "vehement, violent, excessive etc'' .
Excellent ! :).
About phul-, there is also Gr. φύλλον phyllon meaning "leaf, petal", connected with φλέω "to abound etc" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CF%8D%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%BD
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dfu%2Fllon
Such words in phul- etc could be perhaps comparable to some of the Sumerian bul- words (like bul - blow, bul = shake, bulug = a plant, bulug = grow; also a word bulug-KIN-gur means "lancet" (Akk. marşadu - wr. bulug-KIN-gur4).
Concerning also the nigir / libir equation, and the meaning of "free" etc, Lat. god Liber was also a god of agriculture, wine, "libation" etc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liber
"Libation" meanwhile is σπονδή sponde in Greek, σπένδω = to libate:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%B4%CE%AE
Pokorny's root (*spend) here: https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1839
Latin spondeo here:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/spondeo#Latin
Btw, another Gr. word for "vehement" etc is λάβρος labros https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BB%CE%AC%CE%B2%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%82
About phul-, there is also Gr. φύλλον phyllon meaning "leaf, petal", connected with φλέω "to abound etc" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CF%8D%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%BD.
Yes looks terrific! .
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dfu%2Fllon
Such words in phul- etc could be perhaps comparable to some of the Sumerian bul- words (like bul - blow, bul = shake, bulug = a plant, bulug = grow; also a word bulug-KIN-gur means "lancet" (Akk. marşadu - wr. bulug-KIN-gur4)..
Of course! .
Good morning Nirjhar,
About Sum. buluĝ [GROW] (56x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. buluĝ3; buluĝ5; bu-lu-ug; buluĝ "to grow up, rear, make grow; novice; foster child" Akk. rabû; tarbûtu,
and for the meaning "novice; foster child"; do you think a comparison with Skt. bAla "infant, child, naive, girl" , bAlaka "young, boy" is valid? Mayrhofer does not mention this word; he is referring only to bala "power, strength".
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=bala&direct=se
In Greek I think there is a similar word: πάλλαξ pallax (or πάλληξ pallex), "youth" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dpa%2Fllac
I don't know anything about its etymology, though; it is almost certain yet that it is connected to παλλακίς pallakis or παλλακή pallake, meaning "young girl, mistress, concubine".
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dpallaki%2Fs
As I see, balAka is "mistress"; but I don't think there is a connection with the phul- root (unless it is some other layer).
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=bAlaka&direct=se
In Greek, I don't know if there is a connection of πάλλαξ pallax with another word πῶλος polos "1.a foal, young horse, whether colt or filly, 2.a young animal, a puppy 3.in Poets, in fem., a young girl, maiden, —more rarely masc., a young man.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dpw%3Dlos
I cheched at Mayrhofer's Etymological Lexicon, at SPHAR root - which seems to be coonected also to the SPHAL and SPHUR ones, yet I couldn't find a hint about "swell". There is though a SPHA ( <speH1) root with a word "sphira" (abundant, fat" etc).
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=sphira&direct=se
He is wondering also if some words for "spark" like "spulingaka" or "spulingi" etc belong to the SPHAR root ( < *sp(h)erH1 ).
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=spuling&direct=se
Mayrhofer is also sceptical about the connection of Gr. σφαδάζω with the SPAND Skt. words (he says the connection is unlikely).
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=spand&direct=se
do you think a comparison with Skt. bAla "infant, child, naive, girl" , bAlaka "young, boy" is valid?
Good morning Kyriakos and thanks . Yes it does make sense.
In Greek I think there is a similar word: πάλλαξ pallax (or πάλληξ pallex), "youth" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dpa%2Fllac
I don't know anything about its etymology, though; it is almost certain yet that it is connected to παλλακίς pallakis or παλλακή pallake, meaning "young girl, mistress, concubine".
Quite comparable :) .
Monier-Williams says this on balAka and bAlaka :
''3 balAkA f. a crane (more usual than %{-ka} m. q.v.) VS. &c. &c. ; a mistress , loved woman L. (Megh. 9?) ; N. of a woman g. %{bahv-Adi}.
4 bAlaka mf(%{ikA})n. young , childish , not yet fullgrown MBh. Ka1v. &c. ; m. a child , boy , youth (in law `" a minor "') , the young of an animal ib. (%{ikA} f. a girl Ka1v. Pur.) ; a young elephant five years old S3is3. v , 47 ; a fool , simpleton L. ; a kind of fish L. ; N. of a prince (v.l. %{pAlaka}) Pur.''
Turner has this suggestion :
''bālá 9216 bālá ʻ young ʼ Gr̥S., ʻ foolish ʼ Mn., m. ʻ boy (under five years old) ʼ Mn., °aka -- adj. and sb. MBh., m. ʻ fool ʼ lex., bālā -- f. ʻ girl (esp. under sixteen years old) ʼ Mn. [Despite the various etymologies listed in EWA ii 426, it perh. belongs to the ʻ defective ʼ group s.v. baṇḍá -- which proprovides, like other ʻ defective ʼ groups, several words for ʻ child ʼ, e.g. *bāḍa -- in Paš. bāṛā ʻ boy ʼ, bāṛī ʻ girl ʼ, *bāḍḍa -- in G. bāḍuvã̄ ʻ poor simple little children ʼ: note esp. the meanings ʻ ignorant, fool ʼ in Pa. Pk.]
Pa. bāla -- ʻ ignorant, young ʼ, bālaka -- m. ʻ boy, fool ʼ; Aś. balika f. pl. ʻ women ʼ; Pk. bāla -- , f. °lā -- , bālaa -- , f. °liā -- ʻ young ʼ (cf. bālisa -- ʻ foolish ʼ); Paš.lauṛ. bāl(a)kul m. pl. ʻ boys, children ʼ, nij. bōlū ʻ boy ʼ (→ Par. bâlö IIFL iii 3, 34); Sh. bāl m. gil. ʻ child, servant ʼ, koh. gur. ʻ boy ʼ; K. bāla ʻ young ʼ, m. ʻ boy (16 -- 20 years old) ʼ, bāl, dat. °li f. ʻ girl (of the same age) ʼ; S. ḇāru m. ʻ baby ʼ; L. bāl m., bālṛī f. (Ju. ḇ -- ) ʻ child ʼ, khet. bāl ʻ infant ʼ; P. bālā m. ʻ child ʼ; Ku. bālo ʻ very young ʼ, gng. bāw ʻ boy ʼ, bāi ʻ girl ʼ; A. bāl ʻ infant ʼ; MB. bālā ʻ a youth ʼ, B. bāl ʻ boy ʼ; Or. bāḷa ʻ child ʼ, baḷā ʻ son ʼ, bāḷī ʻ young woman ʼ; Mth. bāri (f.?) ʻ tender, young ʼ; OAw. bāra m. ʻ boy ʼ, bārī f. ʻ daughter ʼ; H. bāl, bār, bālā ʻ young ʼ, m. ʻ child ʼ, bāl, bālī f. ʻ girl ʼ; OMarw. bāla m. ʻ boy ʼ; G. bāḷ n. ʻ child ʼ, bāḷī f. ʻ girl (under 16 years old) ʼ, bāḷũ -- bhoḷũ (< *bhōla<-> s.v. *bhulla -- ) ʻ young and innocent ʼ; M. bāḷ ʻ young ʼ, bāḷī f. ʻ young woman before puberty ʼ; Si. bal ʻ young, stupid, simple ʼ, sb. ʻ child, fool ʼ. -- Ext. -- kk -- (or ← Sk. bālaka -- ): K. bālukh, dat. °lakas m. ʻ boy under ten years old ʼ; WPah. (Joshi) bālak m.f. ʻ babe ʼ; N. bālakha ʻ child ʼ. -- Gy. eur. bālo m. ʻ pig ʼ (< ʻ *young pig ʼ LM 376 with?), pers. baldi ʻ child, boar ʼ?
*bālatara -- , *bālatvana -- , *bāladhōtta -- , *bālaputra -- , *bālaprī -- .
Addenda: bālá -- . [T. Burrow BSOAS xxxviii 76 derives < IE. *wolo -- ʻ stupid ʼ in OSl. volŭ ʻ ox ʼ]
WPah.poet. bāḷ m. ʻ young boy ʼ, kṭg. baḷɔ ʻ young, dear ʼ, baḷi f. ʻ young girl ʼ.
†*bālapōtta -- .''
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.2.soas.1911165
On fool OED says :
fool (n.1)
early 13c., "silly, stupid, or ignorant person," from Old French fol "madman, insane person; idiot; rogue; jester," also "blacksmith's bellows," also an adjective meaning "mad, insane" (12c., Modern French fou), from Medieval Latin follus (adj.) "foolish," from Latin follis "bellows, leather bag," from PIE root *bhel- (2) "to blow, swell."
https://www.etymonline.com/word/*bhel-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fool
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1546 (?)
So again there is a suggestive connection with swelling etc .
And connection with power as Manfred say may have relevance , for the act of growing,swelling etc.
Foal seems to be a bit different :
''foal (n.)
Old English fola "foal, colt," from Proto-Germanic *fulon (source also of Old Saxon folo, Middle Dutch volen, Dutch veulen, Old Norse foli, Old Frisian fola, Old High German folo, German Fohlen, Gothic fula), from PIE *pulo- "young of an animal," suffixed form of root *pau- (1) "few, little."
foal (v.)
"give birth (to a foal)," late 14c., from foal (n.). Related: Foaled; foaling.''
https://www.etymonline.com/word/foal
https://www.etymonline.com/word/*pau-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/foal
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1551
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%E1%BF%B6%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%82
Hi Nirjhar, thank you also for the comments. Another question I have is about a similar Altaic root; do you think it can be related? (I don't see any Nostratic root though). From ToB:
Proto-Altaic: *bāla
Meaning: child, young
Russian meaning: ребенок, молодой
Turkic: *bāla, *bāldɨŕ
Mongolian: *balčir
Tungus-Manchu: *baldi-
Japanese: *bàràpa(i)
Comments: АПиПЯЯ 289. Jpn. low tone (or Turkic length) is irregular. The Western languages all reflect a common derivative *bāl(a)-tV.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2falt%2faltet&text_number=+106&root=config
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