There is of course this root pAT about "split, cleave" maybe connected: http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=pATayati&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3 Mayrhofer says about its etymology "not clear".
About the relation of TK / PT words, the meaning of "bite" (Halloran) for pad reminds also tukur "chew" etc. About the pAT root, Mayrhofer makes reference to the comparison with the root of German spalten (English split), thinks though it's not very much likely. ToB though has Ind. paṭati among the reflexes of this root. http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=2615&root=config
About Sum. pad [FIND] (2313x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian, unknown) wr. pad3 "to find, discover; to name, nominate" Akk. atû; nabû I was thinking about Gr.παπταίνω paptaino I.to look earnestly, gaze, Hom.; mostly with notion of alarm or caution, to look or peer around, id=Hom. II.c. acc. to look round for, look after, Il." http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dpaptai%2Fnw which looks like a reduplicated for of some "pat-" (it is πα-πτ-αίνω pa-pt-aino). No etymology.
Akkadian atû looks like pad, only that there is H instead of p :D Halloran, on the other hand, has pàd, pà: to show, reveal; to choose, call; to seek; to find; to declare; to swear, take an oath; to choose out of (with ablative prefix) (pà-dè in sing. marû; pà-pà-dè in plural marû) (sprout, branch + to go out; cp., pa...éd, 'to show; to make appear'; cf., ér...pàd) [PA3 archaic frequency: 30]. maybe a TK fit in this case would be something like deyḱ- "to point out" etc: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/dey%E1%B8%B1-
Halloran, on the other hand, has pàd, pà: to show, reveal; to choose, call; to seek; to find; to declare; to swear, take an oath; to choose out of (with ablative prefix) (pà-dè in sing. marû; pà-pà-dè in plural marû) (sprout, branch + to go out; cp., pa...éd, 'to show; to make appear'; cf., ér...pàd) [PA3 archaic frequency: 30]. maybe a TK fit in this case would be something like deyḱ- "to point out" etc:
About such meanings of Sum. pad as "to call; to seek; to find; to declare; to swear, take an oath" I was thinking also of some word like Gr. φάτις phatis (from *bhe- / *bha-) root "voice of an oracle, an oracle, Aesch., Soph. 2.a saying among men, common talk, rumour, report" : http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dfa%2Ftis maybe as a PT root, compared to the TK of Latin dico "to say" etc ...
Maybe *bʰeh₂- "to shine, glow light" and *bʰeh₂-to speak, say" are of the same origin (as compared to Sum. pad "to show, to reveal, to find" but also "to declare, to take an oath" etc
was thinking also of some word like Gr. φάτις phatis (from *bhe- / *bha-) root "voice of an oracle, an oracle, Aesch., Soph. 2.a saying among men, common talk, rumour, report" :
Suggestive :) .
maybe as a PT root, compared to the TK of Latin dico "to say" etc ...
Yes .
Maybe *bʰeh₂- "to shine, glow light" and *bʰeh₂-to speak, say" are of the same origin (as compared to Sum. pad "to show, to reveal, to find" but also "to declare, to take an oath" etc
:D Why, there is, for example, a verb πιφαύσκω piphausko, a redupl. form of ΦΑ [PHA], Root of φαίνω [phaino < *bʰeh₂- "to shine, glow light"] only in pres. and imperf. I.to make manifest, declare, tell of, Hom., Aesch.: absol., πιφαύσκων Διομήδεϊ making signal to him, Il. 2.to set forth words, utter, μῦθον, ἔπεα Od. 3.c. acc. et inf. to tell one to do, Aesch. II.Mid. to make manifest, Il.; to tell of, disclose, Hom., Hes. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dpifau%2Fskw
*bʰeH- could be from some **gʰeH - like the **gʰe-n-d **gʰa-n-d we were talking about :) One notices also that pad "to find, discover; to name, nominate" is written as pad3 = IGI.RU. Another interesting word I think is palil [FOREMOST] (28x: ED IIIb, Old Babylonian) wr. palil; palil2 "first and foremost, pre-eminent" Akk. ašarēdu is written as IGI.DU; Halloran thinks it is from bala "to cross over" and lu2 "men"; there is also pašeš [FOREMOST] (6x: Old Babylonian) wr. pa4-šeš; pa5-šeš "foremost" Akk. ašarēdu (pa4 signh is the same with the pap one - about šeš we have talked already). Putting palil and pašeš together, I was thinking of some type similar to this Gr. word (probably of "pre-Greek" origin): βασιλεύς basileús m (genitive βᾰσῐλέως) "chief, master΄king, lord, patron΄the first of any class of people/objects" From Proto-Hellenic *gʷatiléus, with σ (s) developing by assibilation. Cognate with Mycenaean Greek (qa-si-re-u), that is, gʷasileus. Further etymology uncertain. Mostly likely Pre-Greek in origin (i.e. Minoan), but possibly from an Anatolian language (see Lydian 𐤡𐤠𐤯𐤯𐤬𐤳 (battos, “king”)), although Mycenean (Linear B) evidence points to an original form with initial gʷ. Case-forms show Attic shortening of the original stem βασιληϝ- (basilēw-); Alternative forms[edit] βᾰσῐλῆος (basilêos) – Homeric, genitive βᾰσῐλῆϝος (basilêwos) – Arcadocypriot, genitive 𐠞𐠪𐠐𐠵𐠩 (pa-si-le-wo-se) – Cypriot, Cypriot syllabary. For example if we take this Arcado-cypriot form "pa-si-le-" (the -wo-se is for Genitive) < **pa-ti-le-, the comparison with "palil" is mostly a t/l, like d/l, situation, I think. Another question is if the -le-us ending is connected to a word like "lu".
*bʰeH- could be from some **gʰeH - like the **gʰe-n-d **gʰa-n-d we were talking about :)
Yes :) .
Another interesting word I think is palil [FOREMOST] (28x: ED IIIb, Old Babylonian) wr. palil; palil2 "first and foremost, pre-eminent" Akk. ašarēdu is written as IGI.DU; Halloran thinks it is from bala "to cross over" and lu2 "men"; there is also pašeš [FOREMOST] (6x: Old Babylonian) wr. pa4-šeš; pa5-šeš "foremost" Akk. ašarēdu (pa4 signh is the same with the pap one - about šeš we have talked already).
I agree :) .
For example if we take this Arcado-cypriot form "pa-si-le-" (the -wo-se is for Genitive) < **pa-ti-le-, the comparison with "palil" is mostly a t/l, like d/l, situation, I think. Another question is if the -le-us ending is connected to a word like "lu".
Here there is a proposed etymology of "basileus" connecting the word to the root *gʷā- "to go" etc, like from < gʷati-leus; for example in Indic there is gātú- m. `going, motion; way, course", in Greek there is βάσις basis etc:
If basileus is from *gʷa-ti-leus (like "one marching ahead" perhaps) and Sum. palil is, as Halloran says, from bala and lu; since "bala" could be also from *kwel / *kwal, as assumed already (also **gwal?); that leads again to think about some *gʷa-t / gʷa-l or (*kʷa-t / kʷa-l) parallel types, implying a moving notion. BTW "palil" reminds also Hebrew galil, meaning "circle, wheel" etc (like in Galilee "district"): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%92%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9C#Hebrew https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Galilee
If basileus is from *gʷa-ti-leus (like "one marching ahead" perhaps) and Sum. palil is, as Halloran says, from bala and lu; since "bala" could be also from *kwel / *kwal, as assumed already (also **gwal?); that leads again to think about some *gʷa-t / gʷa-l or (*kʷa-t / kʷa-l) parallel types, implying a moving notion. BTW "palil" reminds also Hebrew galil, meaning "circle, wheel" etc (like in Galilee "district"):
Hi Nirhar, I was wondering today about these phonetic changes from gw > b or gwh > bh, and all these initial bh-'s in IE; since, as it seems, there were only a few initial b's (if any) in the proto IE, it's a bit weird that so many roots exist having an initial bh-; the glottalic theory has its explanation about it, but another explanation could be that these bh's are mostly evolutions of some aspirated labial velar (like gwh).
BTW, about Sum. lu [PERSON] (12429x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Ebla, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, uncertain, unknown) wr. lu2; mu-lu; mu-lu2; lu10; lu6 "who(m), which; man; (s)he who, that which; of; ruler; person" Akk. amēlu; ša
one word comparable seems to be Burmese lu = "man (human being), person": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%80%9C%E1%80%B0
Maybe the ending -leus in "basileus" is Sino-Tibetan :P Another curious thing is concerning some other word from "man" in Greek, which is φώς phos: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dfw%2Fs looking almost just like phos "light" (contracted form of phaos); there is no etymology for this other phos "man", though: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CF%8E%CF%82
Maybe there is also in Sino-Tibetan a comperable word? :D just look here: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fchina%2fbigchina&text_number=+116&root=config Proto-Sino-Tibetan: *Pă Meaning: man, male Chinese: 夫 *pa man. Tibetan: pha-, -pa, -po male, man (affixes). Burmese: phaʔ masculine affix. Kiranti: *ba (~ bh-, -ǝ-, -o-) Comments: Kham -pa the male of a species. Cf. *paH 'father' (perhaps the same root). :D
About Sum. luĝa [DAMAGE] (2x: Old Babylonian) wr. luĝa; luĝ2 "damage; sin; shamelessness" Akk. hiţītu "shortfall, loss"; šillatu "impudence, shamelessness". perhaps a comparison could be made with this root of Pokorny:
*slēgʷ- 'to press, oppress, mishandle' Derivatives slōgʷā `Plage'[harm] In ToB > Proto-IE: *slōgʷ- Meaning: torment, punishment Old Greek: lṓbǟ f. `Schimpf, Schmach, Schaden, Misshandlung' Proto-Baltic: *slā̂g-ā̂ (2) f., *slāg-u- adj., *slā̂g- vb. inch., *slāg-in̂- vb. Meaning: wound, harm Lithuanian: slōgà `Plage, Landplage', slōgù- `beschwerlich', slōgìnti `plagen', prt. at-slṓgō `wurde vom Drucke frei' Lettish: slâga `Schaden, Beschwerde; Krankheit, Seuche; Viehseuche' http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=++2672&root=config
Gr. lōba or lōbe (λώβη) means "1.despiteful treatment, outrage, dishonour, Hom., Hdt., attic:—esp. mutilation, maiming, Hdt. 2.of persons, a disgrace, Lat. opprobrium..."
perhaps a comparison could be made with this root of Pokorny:
Yes good one :) .
Gr. lōba or lōbe (λώβη) means "1.despiteful treatment, outrage, dishonour, Hom., Hdt., attic:—esp. mutilation, maiming, Hdt. 2.of persons, a disgrace, Lat. opprobrium..."
Again about Sum. bala "turn, rotate" etc; I think that there is a parallel with, at least, some "kur" words; for example: bala "to change" - kur "to change"; bala "to revolt" - kur "to be hostile"; bala "to boil" - kur "burn" (there is also a bar "to burn"); maybe these are indications of the labiovelar kw/gw > b (and kw > k) in these words (with a l/r alteration for the second consonant).
This IE root *slēgʷ or *slōgʷ-, compared to Sum. luĝa "damage" etc makes me think about a potential connection of luĝa with some "silig" word; for example like the one meaning "ax", (like to cut / to damage). I was wondering, also, if this root SLK for "cut" etc could have some connection with a root like *skel (or maybe **skʷel), as a kind of metathesis maybe.
I was wondering, also, if this root SLK for "cut" etc could have some connection with a root like *skel (or maybe **skʷel), as a kind of metathesis maybe.
BTW, about Sum. silig "bed", it reminds me an Amharic word alga meaning "bed, throne"; look here: http://www.academia.edu/10367190/_Alfonso_V._In_Encyclopaedia_Aethiopica._Vol._1 maybe because of some "plosive loss", like K'LK > HLK :D
The question is of course if *legʰ- "to lie" (to be in resting position) is derived also from a similar procedure :D https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/leg%CA%B0-
I like the bed-like throne :D Amharic word alga for "bed/throne" looks again like ĝalga / malga "advice, forethought" etc, and the notion of long, stretched, I think. Not sure about that, though. The Sum. word guza for "seat, throne" (Ak. kussu, maybe from a "kurs-") looks also to be connected to a root about "cutting" (the above kurs-, a kind of KRS root).
The Sum. word guza for "seat, throne" (Ak. kussu, maybe from a "kurs-") looks also to be connected to a root about "cutting" (the above kurs-, a kind of KRS root).
I'm wondering now if the Gr. word ἄλγος algos "pain" (like in "nostalgia"), is derived from some similar meaning, like cut / pain. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%84%CE%BB%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%82
About luĝa "damage etc" again, the opposite word (like LK/KL) gul means "to destroy; to break; to flatten; to carve, cut; to engrave" (Akk. abātu; hepû; naqāru; sapānu); also gula means "desease".
I'm wondering also why luĝa is written with the PA sign; pa means "branch" (reminds of lu and phos for "man" :D ); in Greek κλών klṓn and κλάδος klados (branch/twig) are connected to a notion of "breaking off": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%BB%CF%8E%CE%BD#Ancient_Greek https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%BB%CE%AC%CE%B4%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek This PA sign is used also at the words about "rituals" etc like biluda (written as PA.AN) and ĝarza (PA.LUGAL).
Nirjhar, tonight's assumption is about Sum. kur "to enter", whivh reminds me Greek χωρέω khoreo = to make room for another, give way, draw back, retire, withdraw; to go forward, move on or along, Lat. incedere, and then simply to go or come; to go on, advance, Lat. procedere; to come to an issue, turn out in a certain manner; to spread abroad; also to have room for a thing, to hold, contain, esp. of measures: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dxwre%2Fw
χωρέω is connected to χῶρος khoros "a definite space, piece of ground, place" and χώρα khora "place, space, land, country". Using the bala / kur comparison (assumed both from some labiovelar, as above mentioned) we have to compare in this case a "khOr" with "*kwel/kwer; maybe as **gwa-l/**gwa-r" or **gwHal/**gwHar (like giving also gur "turn") or in this case a **kwHal/**kwHar (giving perhaps kur).
χωρέω is connected to χῶρος khoros "a definite space, piece of ground, place" and χώρα khora "place, space, land, country". Using the bala / kur comparison (assumed both from some labiovelar, as above mentioned) we have to compare in this case a "khOr" with "*kwel/kwer; maybe as **gwa-l/**gwa-r" or **gwHal/**gwHar (like giving also gur "turn") or in this case a **kwHal/**kwHar (giving perhaps kur).
About Sum. šumsikil [VEGETABLE] (12x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. šum2-sikil; šum2-sikil-lum "an alliaceous vegetable" Akk. šamaškilu must be from šum [GARLIC] (2958x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. šum2; šum2sar "garlic; onion" Akk. šūmū and sikil [PLANT] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. u2sikil "a medicinal plant" Akk. sikillu ; or maybe sikil [PURE] (457x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. sikil "(to be) pure" Akk. ebbu; ellu.
The meaning of "onion" reminded me of Gr. σκίλλα skilla "squill, Urginea maritima": http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dski%2Flla https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/squilla#Latin
There is also a word σκιλλοκρόμμυον skillokrommyon = σκίλλα skilla (krommyon means onion): http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dskillokro%2Fmmuon
About šum "garlic" there is also Akkadian šūmū [ŠÚM.(SAR):] (n. pl.) "garlic" Comparison with other Semitic languages : Proto-Semitic : *θūm Arabic : θūm ثُوم Hebrew : šūm שׁוּם
About krommyon "onion" there is a curious IE root *kermus-, *kremus- > like Proto-Germanic hramusô: From Proto-Indo-European *kermus-, *kremus- (“wild garlic”). Cognate with Lithuanian kermùšē (“wild garlic”), Russian черемша́ (cheremshá, “ramson, wild leek”), Ancient Greek κρόμμυον (krómmuon, “onion”), Middle Irish crim (“garlic”). There is no direct evidence of the medial -u- in any of the Germanic languages, but it is assumed based on evidence from other Indo-European languages. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/hramus%C3%B4
apart from the ending -us looks like an opposite "mrd" root (like we supposed in the mud words); here could be a "KrM" let's say, word; maybe šum is a vocalised type, like from K'rM (this is the assumption of tonight :D) About skilla, there is no etymology; these both words (skilla / krommyon) remind the root skel/sker, in my opinion.
apart from the ending -us looks like an opposite "mrd" root (like we supposed in the mud words); here could be a "KrM" let's say, word; maybe šum is a vocalised type, like from K'rM (this is the assumption of tonight :D) About skilla, there is no etymology; these both words (skilla / krommyon) remind the root skel/sker, in my opinion.
:D I was influenced in this assumption (of K'rM > SvM) by sun [ENTER] wr. sun5 "plural stem of kur[to enter]", I mean if sun was evolved from some K'r-N.
Do you think this sun (plural stem of kur) could be compared to this root? Meaning: to push, to move Hittite: suwai- (I) 'stoßen, drängen, schieben' (Friedrich 200) Old Indian: savati `to go, move' (D.), savati, sauti `to urge, impel' (D.); suváti 'to set in motion, urge, impel', ptc. sutá-, sūta-; savá- m. 'instigator, stimulator', sávīman- n. 'setting in motion', savitár- m. 'stimulator, rouser, vivifier' Avestan: hunāiti 'verschafft, sucht zu verschaffen', mainyu-šūta- 'vom Geist getrieben', hvąnmahi 'wir suchen zu verschaffen', apahvanvainti 'sie lenken ab' Slavic: *sovā́ti, *sū́nǭtī Celtic: OIr. sōim 'drehe, kehre' Russ. meaning: толкать, приводить в движение References: WP II 470 (differently in Vasm.)
There is also Pali savati < sravati < *srew: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/savati
There is also sub [GO] (2x: Old Babylonian) wr. sub2 "imperfect plural stem of ĝen[to go]" Akk. alāku, but I don't know if Sum. "b" could correspond with some "v"; maybe it could...
I'm influencewd also by some reflexes of the *kēi- (or *k'ey-) root ("to move"): there is Gr. κίω kio and κινέω but also σεύω seuo "set in motion" etc (like Skt. cyávati 'set in motion'): http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dseu%2Fw https://indo-european.info/pokorny-etymological-dictionary/whnjs.htm https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%B9%CE%BD%CE%AD%CF%89
"sun" reminds also the sin- of Sindhu: Probably from the verbal root सेधति (sedhati, “to go, move”), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱiesdʰ- (“to drive away; to go away”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A7%E0%A5%81#Sanskrit
Also this *ḱiesdʰ- (or *ḱyesdʰ- ) root is a bit strange: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cedo#Latin It looks very much like Sum. kešda or kešed /kešedr/ for "bind"; not with the same meaning obviously; yet, one wonders if the *sē(i)-3, -səi- : sī- und sei- : si- root "to bind" is just a type of some other root like ***k'ē(i)- etc... (like in case of the k'ē(i)/ sew etc of the root of the motion).
"binding" requires a kind of "circular motion" (I think I've already said about it); also the roots about sewing, spining *(s)neh₁- and sewing *sīw- could be from some ḱin- / ḱei roots about motion: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/(s)neh%E2%82%81- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sew
The root of "sew" is connected to the root of "sinew" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sinew The same root (of sinew) in ToB has some interestin Nostratic: Eurasiatic: *son/H/V Meaning: sinew Indo-European: *senew-, *snēw- Altaic: *sūnu Uralic: *se̮ne (*sōne) [but for Alt. cf. rather *sintä 'stretch' ]; cf. also *säŋä 'thread' References: МССНЯ 341; ND 2081 *son[Vq][ü] 'sinew, tendon; root' (IE+Ur+ differ. Alt. + East Cush.). http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=+159&root=config
In Altaic there is an interesting root: Proto-Altaic: *sūnu ( ~ -o) Nostratic: Nostratic Meaning: to stretch Russian meaning: вытягивать Turkic: *sūn- Mongolian: *sunu- Tungus-Manchu: *sūn- Comments: KW 337, Poppe 30, 70. A Western isogloss, and a quite exceptional case of a V̄ : V̄ correspondence between PT and PTM (expressive root? or an old loanword, cf. Doerfer MT 46 ?). On the possibility of Mong. < Turk. see Щербак 1997, 147.
From Ottoman Turkish صونمق (sunmak, “to present”), from Old Anatolian Turkish [script needed] (sun-, “to hold out, offer, present”), from Proto-Turkic *sūn- (“to stretch, stretch out”).[1] Related to Proto-Mongolic *sunu- (“to stretch out”), (cf. Mongolian сунах (sunah, “to extend, stretch”)) and Proto-Tungusic *sūn- (“to stretch out”) (cf. Evenki сӯн (sūn-, “to stretch out”)). Either inherited to all families from a common source or contact induced.[2] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sunmak
Also here: http://translation.babylon-software.com/turkish/to-english/sunmak/
Not sure, but I think it could be connected to Sum. šum [GIVE] (1656x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. šum2 (sum); ze2-eĝ3 "to give" Akk. nadānu
Not sure, but I think it could be connected to Sum. šum [GIVE] (1656x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. šum2 (sum); ze2-eĝ3 "to give" Akk. nadānu
Emesal ze-eĝ for šum reminds the ze-eb for dub "knee"... One can notice also that there is a sun [HUMBLE] (48x: Old Babylonian) wr. sun5 "(to be) humble"; but also a dun [HUMBLE] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. dun5-na "humble" Akk. wašru. Maybe there was a kind of "archaic palatal sound" ;) which could evolve to several sounds, as initial letter of several roots like g'-/k'- in one and maybe d-/t- in some other, then from k' we could have s- etc...
Maybe there was a kind of "archaic palatal sound" ;) which could evolve to several sounds, as initial letter of several roots like g'-/k'- in one and maybe d-/t- in some other, then from k' we could have s- etc...
There is also a hum [SNAP] (8x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. hum "to snap off; to run, flow (bodily fluids); to move, be in motion" Akk. hamāšu; rahāšu. I think enough assumptions for today, Nirjhar :)
About Sum. šab [TRIM] (25x: Old Babylonian) wr. šab "to inspect exta; to incise; to draw, design; to gather together, collect, scrape up; to break off, deduct; to trim, peel off; to dig, hollow out; to have a grooved shape; to cut, fell (of trees); to become loose, fall out; to disintegrate; to disappear; to make clear" Akk. barû ša uzu; esēpu; harāru; harāşu; harāşu; eşēru; harāşu; šarāmu; nakāsu; šahāhu One possible comparison could be with Pokorny's root *(s)kē̆p-, (s)kō̆p-, and (s)kā̆p-, (s)kē̆b(h)-, skob(h)-, and skā̆b(h)- 'to cut, shave, split with sharp tool (especially about the meanings 'to incise; to draw, design; to scrape up; to break off, deduct; to trim, peel off; to dig, hollow out; to have a grooved shape').
One possible comparison could be with Pokorny's root *(s)kē̆p-, (s)kō̆p-, and (s)kā̆p-, (s)kē̆b(h)-, skob(h)-, and skā̆b(h)- 'to cut, shave, split with sharp tool (especially about the meanings 'to incise; to draw, design; to scrape up; to break off, deduct; to trim, peel off; to dig, hollow out; to have a grooved shape').
Trying to find a comparable word for the meaning "to inspect" (exta) of šab, also similar in form with *(s)kē̆p-, I was thinking about Gr. σκέψις skepsis for examining etc, but this is from *speḱ- with metathesis https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%AD%CF%88%CE%B9%CF%82#Ancient_Greek https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/spe%E1%B8%B1- maybe *speḱ- is a metathesised form of (s)kē̆p-, (s)kā̆p-? :D
About the meanings "to become loose, fall out; to disintegrate; to disappear; to make clear" I remembered a Gr. word σαβακός sabakos "shattered; metaph. enervated, Anth. deriv. uncertain http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dsabako%2Fs If it was also from some 'skab' the "k" has been absorbed, I'm afraid.
Another Gr. word without "k" I can think of is σπάω spao (of violent actions like to pluck off or out etc); it's the root of "spasm"; also without etymology (etymonline though thinks it's from a *spe "to stretch"): http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dspa%2Fw https://www.etymonline.com/word/spasm
Maybe from some **speH < spek? (through some plosive loss?) < skep? looks also like *(s)peh₂- (“to draw”) like in σπάθη spathe "blade": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%80%CE%AC%CE%B8%CE%B7
When we were talking about zuh, stayu etc, roots like steg, skwel/stel or spel (for stealing, cut, cover etc), I said that roots meaning "cut" and "cover" looks identical, probably because coverings were made by cutten wood; seems to be the same in *skep- "to cut" / *skep "to cover". I mean this rare root of Pokorny (s)kep-1 "to cover" > Material: Gr. σκέπας skepas, -αος n. `cover, Hölle, Schutzdach', ion. att. σκέπη skepe f. `cover, protection, Schirm', σκεπάζω, σκεπάω, σκέπω `bedecke, verhölle, schötze'; lit. kepùrė `Mötze', lett. cepure `Mötze, Hut; Bedeckung the Kornhaufen auf dem Felde', russ. čepéc `Haube' etc. which I thought is connected to Skr. kṣáp, kṣapā́ "night" kʷsep- (ö) (Pokorny's *ĝʷhsep-) from a notion of "cover".
Since I don't think a *kʷsep- root to be very much probable, I would propose to consider that kṣap- is in the reality the initial word root and all *skep roots are from it.
There is also a Sum. suh [EXTRACT] (67x: ED IIIb) wr. suh5; suh "to tear out; to extract; to choose" Akk. nasāhu looks like "zuh"; reminds also of a Gr. word σώχω sokho "rub to pieces, grind": http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dsw%2Fxw which seems connexted also to ψώχω psokho (ψώω psoo) "rub small": http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dyw%2Fxw maybe connected too.
Pokorny has compared ψώχω etc with Skrt. psAti "consume, devour" etc: http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=psati&direct=se Maybe you have also some "Greek" layer, not only we an "Indic" one :P
In Pokorny is *bhes- (like in Gr. ψάω psao "to rub" etc); in II it became bhsA < bhs-eH (ved. psA); I think it could be from the same root like kSiti etc. BTW, in Halloran there is a Sum. word peš4,13: n., river pebble (I haven't found in the ePSD); not sure, yet this word looks like Gr. ψῆφος psephos meaning the same thing (from *bhes): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%88%E1%BF%86%CF%86%CE%BF%CF%82
Also intriguing another root of Pokorny *pe(n)s "dust, sand" roto-IE: *pē(n)s- Meaning: sand Hittite: passila- c. 'Kieselstein', (?) passu-, pissu- 'Felsblock?' (Friedrich 165, 170) Old Indian: pāṁsú- m., pāṁsuka- n. `dust, sand' Avestan: pąsnu- 'Staub, Sand' Slavic: *pēsъkъ Hittite passila seems to mean "pebble" or at least some small rock: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+907&root=config
In Gr. there is also a word πεσσός pessos "an oval-shaped stone for playing a game", which looks also similar: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dpesso%2Fs
A word for "stone" in Greek is λᾶας laas (lapis in Latin): http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dla%3Das A bit bizzare idea would be the Sum. "na" for stone as having a dialectical form "la" for "stone" (you know like nigir/libir).
:D Also, about Latin lapis: "May be connected with Ancient Greek λέπας (lépas, “bare rock, crag”), from Proto-Indo-European *lep- (“to peel”). Confer with saxum - secō, rupēs - rumpō." https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lapis
On the other hand, the Akkadian word for Sum. "na" is abnu "stone"; Semitic root here: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=+883&root=config
abnu reminded me of Gr. εὐναί eunai "mooring-stones, which served as anchors, having cables (πρυμνήσια) attached to them, and being cast into the water or upon the shore" (plural of εὐνή eune (1) place to lie, bed, couch" etc. Like in the word "eunuch": http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0073%3Aentry%3Deu)nh%2F https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/eunuch
Seemingly unrelated; yet, if a word of stone may be connected to a notion of peel or cut; and the "bed" in Sum. silig may be connected also to a notion of "cut", then it could be possible that a root about "cut" to be used both for bed and stone.
Seemingly unrelated; yet, if a word of stone may be connected to a notion of peel or cut; and the "bed" in Sum. silig may be connected also to a notion of "cut", then it could be possible that a root about "cut" to be used both for bed and stone.
:D "Uncertain. Compare Old Irish huom, uom, Avestan 𐬎𐬥𐬁 (unā), and Latin exuō, venus." https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B5%E1%BD%90%CE%BD%CE%AE#Ancient_Greek Avestan una seems to mean "empty", though: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=1186&root=config but the Gr. word κενός kenos "empty" is from a *ken word (k'en) also :D https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%B5%CE%BD%CF%8C%CF%82
Besides, there is also nud [LIE] (419x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian), wr. nud; nux(|HU.NA2|) "to lie down (of people); to lay down; to be ill" Akk. utulu; and nud is written as na2, nu2; also Halloran has [ĝiš]nad3, na2: bed, couch (na2 = nu2-a, 'to lie down' + nominative [from R. Englund]) [NA2 archaic frequency: 72; concatenates 4 sign variants]; even na4, one writing of na "stone, pebble" is written as NI.UD. There is also na deg [CLEAR] (80x: ED IIIb, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. na degx(RI); ša di(ES); ša di-di(ES); ša di-di5(ES); ša di5(ES) "to make clear, explain; to consecrate, purify; to separate; to clear out, cut out" Akk. ašāru; elēlu; hasāsu. Halloran: na...de5[RI]: to give advice, instructions; to cleanse; to fell trees (cf., na...ri(-g)) (prohibitive/affirmative + 'to advise'). In Emesal is ša instead of na; in EPSD there is ša [SNAP] (6x: Old Babylonian) wr. ša5 "to snap off" Akk. haşāşu. So, I think many of the words - meanings discussed (like "cut", "extract", "peel", "bed", "advice" etc are involved.
Another thought, concerning the "kṣap-" in this case, is about šab [SEALING] (9x: ED IIIa, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. šab "clay sealing, sealed bulla" Akk. šipassu beeing connected to a word we have already met: kišib [SEAL] (17468x: ED IIIb, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. kišib3; kišib; [na4]kišib "cylinder seal, sealed tablet" Akk. kunukku. maybe with a notion of supress or press: http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=kSapaNa&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3 Mind also, that one of the writings of "kišib" is [na4]kišib, and mostly, concerning again kṣap- "night, darkness" the sign of "kišib" is the same with mes [BLACKNESS] (56x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. mes; [ĝeš]mes "blackness, black spot; black wood" Akk. şulmu; maybe because of a black-wood made seal.
:D Some say also that Akkadian abnu for "na" stone, or a similar Semitic root, is connected to the root of "ebony" (like "a hard, like stone, black wood"): https://www.etymonline.com/word/ebony https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hbnj#Egyptian
About šab [HIPS] (12x: Old Babylonian) wr. šab "hips; middle" Akk. qablu I think we can assume also here a "thorn cluster"; the TK word must be tuhul [HIP] (ETCSL: tugul=hip) (5x: Old Babylonian) wr. tuhul "hip bone" Akk. giššu.
The TK type in case of šab [TRIM] (25x: Old Babylonian) wr. šab "to inspect exta; to incise; to draw, design; to gather together, collect, scrape up; to break off, deduct; to trim, peel off; to dig, hollow out; to have a grooved shape; to cut, fell (of trees); to become loose, fall out; to disintegrate; to disappear; to make clear" Akk. barû ša uzu; esēpu; harāru; harāşu; harāşu; eşēru; harāşu; šarāmu; nakāsu; šahāhu
must be tuk [BREAK] wr. tukx(|IM.KAD3|) "to break off, pinch off; to cut, fell; to demolish; to scratch; to soften, dissolve" Akk. karāşu; nakāsu; naqāru; narābu maybe also tuku [BEAT] (151x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. tuku5 "to beat, strike of cloth; to weave" Akk. mahāşu
must be tuk [BREAK] wr. tukx(|IM.KAD3|) "to break off, pinch off; to cut, fell; to demolish; to scratch; to soften, dissolve" Akk. karāşu; nakāsu; naqāru; narābu maybe also tuku [BEAT] (151x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. tuku5 "to beat, strike of cloth; to weave" Akk. mahāşu
There is also tugul [BOAT] (4x: Ur III) wr. [ĝeš]tu-gul "a part of a boat?" which could correspond to ĝisal [RUDDER] (19x: ED IIIb, Old Babylonian) wr. [ĝeš]ĝisal "rudder, oar; a roof part" Akk. gišallu as TK / KS types of a thorn cluster again.
Have you noticed that tugul/tuhul for "hip" is written like NAGAR.ZAtenu ? [[tuhul]] = = [NAGAR].ZA@t = gi-iš-šu like nagar "carpenter", I mean, a notion of "cut"...
Do not forget our loving word nagar! :P :D But why you seem so surprised? tugul/tuhul means also "hip-bone" we have encountered in Giacomo's post ĝiripadra :D "bone"; ĝiri "bone", like ĝiri "dagger" and "foot"; and "padra" could be from pad [BREAK] (56x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, unknown wr. pad "to break (into bits)" Akk. kasāpu (this last one must be the PT of the thorn cluster; I think we have discussed about all these before").
could be from pad [BREAK] (56x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, unknown wr. pad "to break (into bits)" Akk. kasāpu (this last one must be the PT of the thorn cluster; I think we have discussed about all these before").
This one will make you smile (again): tugul for "hip" reminded me Gr. γλουτός gloutos "buttock" (as a kind of TK-L / KL-T metathesis :D); it has not clear etymology, yet “The Diccionario Griego–Español cites the Proto-Indo-European *gelh₁w-. It's apparently cognate with the Sanskrit ग्लौ (glaú, “round lump”) and the English clot, so Proto-Indo-European *glūdos?” https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%85%CF%84%CF%8C%CF%82 See it as a kind of "intermezzo" in this searching :)
tugul for "hip" reminded me Gr. γλουτός gloutos "buttock" (as a kind of TK-L / KL-T metathesis :D); it has not clear etymology, yet “The Diccionario Griego–Español cites the Proto-Indo-European *gelh₁w-. It's apparently cognate with the Sanskrit ग्लौ (glaú, “round lump”) and the English clot, so Proto-Indo-European *glūdos?”
Very nice! :) .
See it as a kind of "intermezzo" in this searching :)
BTW, what about "thigh"? it includes also a "thorn cluster": "From Middle English thighe, thehe, from Old English þēoh, þīoh, from Proto-Germanic *þeuhą (compare West Frisian tsjea, Dutch dij, Middle High German diech, Icelandic þjó), from Proto-Indo-European *tewk- (compare Irish tóin (“hind, rump”), Lithuanian táukas (“fat”), Russian тук (tuk, “animal fat”)). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/thigh
One other word I can think of is pahal [LEG] (2x: Old Babylonian) wr. pa4-hal "leg" (looks also like pah [LEG] wr. pah "leg of an animal, haunch, lap" Akk. purīdu).
On the other hand "thigh" is usually connected to tewh₂- "swell" etc: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/tewh%E2%82%82- and seems similar to the root *tewk for "offspring" etc: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/tewk- in this case it reminds that "pap" is also a relation word (pap [RELATION] (86x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. pap "first and foremost, pre-eminent; father; male, virile; brother" Akk. abu; ahu; ašarēdu; zikaru reminding also the IE "pt-r" for father; I mean something like the **KwKw-r root we assumed for "father" (like reduplicated Kw); since pap could be just the PP of the **KwKw. About tewk, Wikipedia says "Possibly analyzed as *tewh₂-k- or *tewH-k-, though the evidence is unclear[1]. Superficially similar to *(s)tewk- (“to strike, hit”) but unclear whether semantically related." (stewk is comparable to tuku5 "to beat, weave etc", we have said already about that (seems also comparable also to some KrK root, like in Gr. kerkos). We could keep talking about these same things all the time, Nirjhar...
reminding also the IE "pt-r" for father; I mean something like the **KwKw-r root we assumed for "father" (like reduplicated Kw); since pap could be just the PP of the **KwKw. About tewk, Wikipedia says "Possibly analyzed as *tewh₂-k- or *tewH-k-, though the evidence is unclear[1]. Superficially similar to *(s)tewk- (“to strike, hit”) but unclear whether semantically related." (stewk is comparable to tuku5 "to beat, weave etc", we have said already about that (seems also comparable also to some KrK root, like in Gr. kerkos).
Of course! :) .
We could keep talking about these same things all the time, Nirjhar...
About Halloran's paphal (or pahal) as "portion, share", connected obviosly to hala [SHARE] (91x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. ha-la; hal "inheritance share" Akk. zittu (btw it's also hal [THIGH] (3x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. hal; u2-lum "upper thigh" Akk. hallu) I thought, if you remember, that this hal could be related to a (reversed) type λαχ- lakh- in Greek for "lot, share"; I remembered now another word παλάσσω palasso I.to besprinkle, sully, defile, Od.; mostly in Pass., Hom.:—Mid., παλάσσετο χεῖρας he defiled his hands, Il. 2.Pass. also of things, to be scattered abroad, id=Il. II.perf. pass. of lots shaken in an urn, κλήρῳ πεπαλάχθαι "kleroi pepalakthai"] to determine one's fate by lot, Hom.; cf. πάλος. From πάλλω pallo "to shake": πάλος [α^], ὁ, palos（A.“πάλλω” [pallo = shake] 1.3) lot cast from a shaken helmet, A.Th. 458. 2. Lyr., Ion., and Trag. generally, = κλῆρος, lot..." http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dpa%2Flos1
I think there is also a word παλαχή palakhe = "lot". About the word for stone and the connection with "share, lot" maybe pebbles etc were used (in an urn maybe) "to determine one's fate by lot".
I thought, if you remember, that this hal could be related to a (reversed) type λαχ- lakh- in Greek for "lot, share"; I remembered now another word παλάσσω palasso I.to besprinkle, sully, defile, Od.; mostly in Pass., Hom.:—Mid., παλάσσετο χεῖρας he defiled his hands, Il.
Of course! :) .
I think there is also a word παλαχή palakhe = "lot". About the word for stone and the connection with "share, lot" maybe pebbles etc were used (in an urn maybe) "to determine one's fate by lot".
palakhe here: πᾰλᾰχή, ἡ, (A παλάσσω 111) anything acquired by lot, = ἀρχή, λῆξις, μοῖρα, γενεά, Hsch.; ἐκ παλαχῆς, = ἐξ ἀρχῆς, Nic.Th.449 (cf. Sch.ad loc.); but παλαχῆθεν· ἐκ γενεᾶς, ἐκ παλαιοῦ, Hsch. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dpalaxh%2F meaning also many things "acquired by fate" (μοῖρα moira), like family / race (γενεά genea), beginning and ending (ἀρχή arkhe, λῆξις leexis). Maybe there is a sort of connection with the "pa-" in Sum. words like pabilga "kinship term / relation".
It could be the basic "pa" ( < kwa) of these KK roots. In Greek there is also another verb πάομαι paomai, meaning "get, acquire, possess), usually in its p.perfect form πέπαμαι pepamai; porobably from a root "kwa", because, as Chantrain writes, in Boeotic there is a word with an initial double ππ > ππάματα ππαματα "things possessed", which leads to a kw (like in Gr. "hippos" for horse): http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dpa%2Fomai I think it could be connected with *tkei etc (like in Sum. tuku) as its basic root (Kw-); Chantrain doubts about this, yet says that this (the connection with ktaomai < tkei) was Kretchmer's opinion. Chantrain says though that this word paomai approaches the word πάτωρ pator, maybe even πατήρ pater "father".
I think it could be connected with *tkei etc (like in Sum. tuku) as its basic root (Kw-); Chantrain doubts about this, yet says that this (the connection with ktaomai < tkei) was Kretchmer's opinion. Chantrain says though that this word paomai approaches the word πάτωρ pator, maybe even πατήρ pater "father". ! :D .
Chantraine (sorry for the wrong spelling before:) ) mentions several comparisons also το some Sanskrit words, like Svatra "profitable, strong" and even Sura "strong, hero", here the word κύριος kyrios "lord" (like in Kyriakos :D) seems connected to πάομαι paomai. In Pokorny πέπαμαι pepamai is among the k̂eu-1, k̂eu̯ǝ- : k̂ū-, k̂u̯ā- words for swelling; Chantraine thinks though some comparisons of Pokorny in this root as doubtful.
here the word κύριος kyrios "lord" (like in Kyriakos :D) seems connected to πάομαι paomai. In Pokorny πέπαμαι pepamai is among the k̂eu-1, k̂eu̯ǝ- : k̂ū-, k̂u̯ā- words for swelling; Chantraine thinks though some comparisons of Pokorny in this root as doubtful.
The root of swelling fits certainly to the pap-hal or pahal for a notion of leg, thigh... A last observation for today, Nirjhar: it's about the notion of "destruction" again: there is halam [FORSAKE] (107x: ED IIIb, Lagash II, Old Babylonian) wr. ha-lam; gel-le-eĝ3 "(to be) bad, evil; to forsake, forget; to destroy" Akk. halāqu; lapātu; lemnu; mašû A kind of KrK root; and since the hal- part could be of some same source with hal- "lot, share" , I think that there could be some relation to the root of Gr. kleros "lot" (I have already mentioned it, if you remember) "From Proto-Indo-European *kleh₂-, from *kelh₂- (“to hit, cut down”). Cognate with κόλαφος (kólaphos), Latin clādes, Scots holt (“a wood, copse. thicket”), North Frisian holt (“wood, timber”) etc" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%BB%E1%BF%86%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%82
I think if the pa or pap words kinship et are of some KwKw (doubled Kw) thorn cluster, then the other word hibiz "heir" we have enountered already, must be the PS type. I remember I have said (at December 27th, 2017) "Then it is possible that the other gʷʰen- for "swelling, flourishing" etc to have "its own" TK thorn cluster, like *dgʷhey- or a similar **dgʷh-, so we could have also ibiz for "heir" with some meaning of abundance, swell, prosper, blossoming etc." (the gʷʰen- for "swelling, flourishing was a similar root to gʷʰen- for destrying, killing, like kṣanoti, Gr. phthino, phthisis, psisis etc, compared to Sum. ibiza, like the root kṣi- etc).
BTW, there is a Gr. φοινός "blood-red, blood-stained, murderous"; perhaps related to φόνος phonos "murder": http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dfoino%2Fs I mean, there is also hibiz [RED] wr. hibiz "red" Akk. ruššû :D Maybe from HPS type of some cluster related to gʷʰen- for murder? (unless it is for "swelling, flourishing", like red-blossoming").
φοινός phoinos is connected to the Phoenicians; also the mythical bird phoenix etc: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%A6%CE%BF%E1%BF%96%CE%BD%CE%B9%CE%BE
Most probably! :) About the Old Egyptian fnḫw, Wikipedia says: "Probably from the plural of fnḫ (“carpenter, woodcutter”), in connection with the Egyptian trade in lumber in Canaan." https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fn%E1%B8%ABw#Egyptian Like Sum. nagar "carpenter", again :D
I rememner that we have said that *Hreudh- for "red" looks like *Hleudh "free", but also "growing, people" etc, like Lat. liber or Gr. eleutheros; and I thought that liber could be related to nagara, because of a Sum. style dissimilation, like libir / nigir :D
But Sumerian has also "urud" for copper. Latin purpura and Gr. porphyra ( > "purple") must me from a connected PrP style root. Sum. si, sa or sig for "red" must me a from a kind of SK one.
BTW, do you think that Sum. kišar [EARTH] (35x: Old Akkadian, Old Babylonian) wr. ki-šar2 "totality; the whole earth; horizon" , Akkadian kiššat erşeti; kiššatu could be connected perhaps with kSiti etc? http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=ksiti&direct=au
Another thought, similar to the one about halam or Emesal gel-le-eĝ3"(to be) bad, evil; to forsake, forget; to destroy" and its possible connection to *kleh₂- < from *kelh₂- (“to hit, cut down”), would be the one about a similar comparison of this same root (*kelh₂) with some Sum. "gilim" words; like for example gilim [CROSS] (25x: Old Babylonian) wr. gilim; gilibx(|GI%GI|)ib; gi16-il; gil-gilil "to lie across; to be entwined; to entwine, twist; to block; (to be) difficult to understand" Akk. egēru; parāku; which could fit to a meaning of "cut" (like stop or hinder or having a dificculty).
gilim reminded me Gr. κλῆμα (klêma) from. κλάω "a vine-twig, vine-branch, Lat. palmes, Ar., Plat.: generally, a cutting, slip": http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dklh%3Dma it could fit to the meaning "to be entwined; to entwine, twist"; also could be compared also to the other gilim [FOLIAGE] (47x: Ur III, Early Old Babylonian) wr. gigilim; ĝešgilim "foliage; forest" Akk. gūru; halbu, I think.
In Greek the word about "hinder, prevent" etc is κωλύω (kōlū́ō), which seems also close https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%89%CE%BB%CF%8D%CF%89 The vocalism (with a omega) could lead to another Sum. word for destruction gul [DESTROY] (518x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. gul; gu-ul "to destroy; to break; to flatten; to carve, cut; to engrave" Akk. abātu; hepû; naqāru; sapānu.
Since also in Halloran's Lexicon it is gul: v., to destroy, demolish (as preparation for rebuilding); to be destroyed; to obstruct; to extinguish; to cease; to fall upon (with -ši-); to wreck to pieces, to destroy utterly (with -ta-) (reduplication class) (gu7, 'to consume' + ul, 'ancient, enduring') [GUL archaic frequency: 24]. adj., evil; enormous. gul having thus also a meaning "to obstruct, to cease".
At Hesychius I found a word κλαμμίς klammis = ἀναδενδράς anadendras "vine that grows up trees" (anadendras is from ἀνά ana = "up" and δένδρον dendron = "tree"); for the meaning "folliage, forest". http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*k%3Aentry+group%3D123%3Aentry%3Dklammi%2Fs For the meaning "to block" I was thinking also about the root of "close" https://www.etymonline.com/word/close https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/claudo#Latin https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/(s)kleh%E2%82%82w- That seems close :D too. ;) Also seems to be from (s)kel. Also, this old High German sliozan (“to close, conclude, lock”), looks close to the "silig" words, which is for "cut", it seems though that it is also for prevent, cease, stop, too. So, all these roots must be connected, I think.
Also, this old High German sliozan (“to close, conclude, lock”), looks close to the "silig" words, which is for "cut", it seems though that it is also for prevent, cease, stop, too. So, all these roots must be connected, I think.
I checked Halloran's Lexicon (2006 ed.) and it has "gilim-(b), gilibx, gili, gil, gi16, ge16: n., reed bundle; reed rope, reed post; dancer; bride crown (cf. gi16 - sa) (gi, 'reeds', + lam, 'abundance'; Akk. kilimbu, 'reed bundle') [GIL archaic frequency: 1]. v., to twist; twine together; to twine reeds into a bundle or rope; to bend, bow; to cross, bar, block; to fence off; to lie athwart; to go across; to cross plow; to mess up, to destroy. adj., to be twisted, tangled; opaque; to be corrupted, condused; destroyed (cf. gil-le-em3 and ha-lam)"; gil-le-em3 is Emesal dialect for halam or gilim acoording to Halloran.
gilim as "reed post", "reed rope" etc reminds *ḱl̥h₂mos for "reed": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%B1%CE%BC%CE%BF%CF%82 Gr. κάλαμος kalamos looks also similar to the word kalam ("land of Sumer") which Whittaker thinks it's from this root *ḱl̥h₂mos for "reed", meaning a land with reeds; which I have the impression it is from some root denoting a plain, a stretched land etc (like from some **(s)kwel...).
About Halloran's gilim as "dancer" I found at Hesychius a word κολέα kolea or κολία kolia "a kind of dance": http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkole%2Fa No etymology, I'm afraid. There is also a verb with "r", κοράσσει korassei "he/she dances" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*k%3Aentry+group%3D150%3Aentry%3Dkora%2Fssei which seems closer to χορός khoros "dance": Etymology: Uncertain. Has traditionally been derived from a Proto-Indo-European *ǵʰer- (“catch”), cognate to χόρτος (khórtos, “enclosure”) and Sanskrit हरति (harati). However, the word is phonetically identical to Lithuanian žaras, and so could perhaps be from a Proto-Indo-European *ǵʰoros. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%87%CE%BF%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%82 I'm not sure what exactly is going on here :/
The meaning of gilim as "to bend, bow" reminded me again Gr. κλίνω klínō "to bend, lean" etc (in fact, "lean" is from this same root): Reanalysed root of *ḱléyti, from *ḱel- (“to incline”) + *-éyti (*éy-present suffix). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%BB%CE%AF%CE%BD%CF%89
gilim in this case looks like Sum. galam "stairs", which I thought is like Gr. κλίμαξ klimax, also from the same root *ḱel- (“to incline”): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%BB%E1%BF%96%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%BE So, galam, is another word matching this scheme, I think.
The word gulma you compared to galam though fits well also to gilim "folliage, forest" I think :D http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=gulma&direct=se
Looks also the gul for destruction :D I remembered now a root of Bomhard you have posted once, I think gal "to scratch, to scrape" or ghel or gel (ghal, ghel) "to cut" or gel/ghel "to plow" (like to cut) maybe also some similar root for shaving etc...
Do you think the word śūla is connected, maybe through some k'ul- version, meaning "cut"? Maybe also with Sum. sil, silig etc? http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=sula&direct=au
The Akkadian equivalent of gil / gilim, that is egēru, could ve connected also ultimately (because of l/r - a kind og HKR): http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=5985&language=id genarally these notions remind the root *(s)kel: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/(s)kel-
Concerning also šab "trim" we supposed connected to kṣap-/ kṣan- (as kṣa-p-/ kṣa-n-) etc, I can think of a Gr. word ξαίνω xaino I.to comb or card wool, so as to make it fit for spinning, Od., etc. 2.of cloth, to full or dress it, Ar. II.metaph. to dress, thrash, beat: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dcai%2Fnw
I think ξαίνω xaino is very clearly connected to kṣan- (as perhaps an Indic-like root in Greek): क्षन् kṣan [ kSan ] 1 ( or kṣaṇ ), cl. 8. P. kṣaṇóti ( aor. akṣaṇīt Pāṇ. 7-2, 5 ; a-kṣaṇvat )., to hurt, injure, wound ŚBr. ( inf. kṣaṇítos, xiv, 8, 14, 4 ) Kum. v, 54 to break ( a bow ) Ragh. xi, 72 : Ā. kṣaṇuté ( aor. Subj. 2. sg. kṣaṇiṣṭhās, Pot. kṣaṇvīta ), to hurt one's self, be injured or wounded AV. x, 1, 16 ŚBr. iv, 4, 3, 13 and 6 , 1, 6 TBr. iii [ cf. κτείνω, καίνω, ξαίνω, σίνομαι for ξίνομαι?] http://www.sanskrita.org/wiki/index.php?title=kSan
In Sumerian there is a sigšab "combed out hair, carded wool" - sig means "to pluck hair or wool; (to be) trimmed, pruned"; probably this sig is a SK version, while kṣan- is a KS one; in this case sigšab looks like a SKS-p one (!). Reminds also siki "hair", again one can think about suhur "to trim or comb the hair", also (suhur reminds also suh "to tear out; to extract; to choose" Akk. nasāhu).
I think ξαίνω xaino is very clearly connected to kṣan- (as perhaps an Indic-like root in Greek): क्षन् kṣan [ kSan
Yes good comparison :) .
In Sumerian there is a sigšab "combed out hair, carded wool" - sig means "to pluck hair or wool; (to be) trimmed, pruned"; probably this sig is a SK version, while kṣan- is a KS one; in this case sigšab looks like a SKS-p one (!). Reminds also siki "hair", again one can think about suhur "to trim or comb the hair", also (suhur reminds also suh "to tear out; to extract; to choose" Akk. nasāhu).
There is also a Sum. word kušu [CREATURE] (12x: ED IIIa, Old Babylonian) wr. kušu2; kušu2[ku6] "crab or a snapping turtle" Akk. kušû. The same is used also for the signe of Cancer (of the zodiac) = crab http://www.skyscript.co.uk/babylonian_cancer.pdf
Also, the sign of nagar is used to depict the crab: "In later texts the name of the Crab can also be written with the Nagar-sign (left). This sign signifies a carpenter or craftsman, which suggests that it has been selected to illustrate the analogy between the crab’s claws and a carpenters saw." (sse above, page 4) "cancer" is also from *(s)ker: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cancer#Latin :D
Also, the sign of nagar is used to depict the crab: "In later texts the name of the Crab can also be written with the Nagar-sign (left). This sign signifies a carpenter or craftsman, which suggests that it has been selected to illustrate the analogy between the crab’s claws and a carpenters saw." (sse above, page 4) "cancer" is also from *(s)ker: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cancer#Latin :D
kušu [ANIMALS] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. kušu "animals, livestock" Akk. būlu could be corresponded, as a KS word, to a KT like Gr. κτῆνος ktenos (in plural) flocks and herds, which in ancient times constituted wealth, Hhymn., Hdt. 2.in sg. a single beast, as an ox or sheepfrom κτάομαι ktaomai "get, acquire" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dkth%3Dnos
From the signlist one can see that, for some reason, kušu2 is written exactly the same way with uḫ3, one of the signs of ah [SPITTLE] (12x: Old Babylonian) wr. ah6; uh3; aah "a paste; phlegm, mucus, sputum; foam, scum; saliva, spittle; poison" Akk. hahhu; hurhummatu; illātu; imtu; ru'tu; rupuštu; uhhu. http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/edition2/signlist.php Do you think this word kSib could be connected somehow? http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=kSIb&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
There is also allub [CRAB] (3x: Old Babylonian) wr. al-lub; a-lu "crab" Akk. alluttu. Allutu itself also is supposed to be of Sumerian origine: http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=6657&language=id
From the signlist this sign is the LU sign, same for these signs > ka5, lib, lu5, lub, lul, nar, paḫ, šatam And since "ka" means "fox"; also since the ka sign is the same with "lib" which, according to Whittaker, could imply a connection with the root of vulpes and Gr. alopex "fox"; I was wondering then if the crab was something like "the fox of the sea" for the Sumerians :D https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CE%BB%CF%8E%CF%80%CE%B7%CE%BE https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vulpes#Latin
2,273 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 2001 – 2200 of 2273 Newer› Newest»There is of course this root pAT about "split, cleave" maybe connected:
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=pATayati&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
Mayrhofer says about its etymology "not clear".
Interesting Kyriakos :) .
About the relation of TK / PT words, the meaning of "bite" (Halloran) for pad reminds also tukur "chew" etc.
About the pAT root, Mayrhofer makes reference to the comparison with the root of German spalten (English split), thinks though it's not very much likely. ToB though has Ind. paṭati among the reflexes of this root.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=2615&root=config
About the relation of TK / PT words, the meaning of "bite" (Halloran) for pad reminds also tukur "chew" etc.
I agree :) .
About Sum. pad [FIND] (2313x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian, unknown) wr. pad3 "to find, discover; to name, nominate" Akk. atû; nabû
I was thinking about Gr.παπταίνω paptaino I.to look earnestly, gaze, Hom.; mostly with notion of alarm or caution, to look or peer around, id=Hom. II.c. acc. to look round for, look after, Il."
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dpaptai%2Fnw
which looks like a reduplicated for of some "pat-" (it is πα-πτ-αίνω pa-pt-aino). No etymology.
which looks like a reduplicated for of some "pat-" (it is πα-πτ-αίνω pa-pt-aino). No etymology.
Good suggestion! :) .
Akkadian atû looks like pad, only that there is H instead of p :D
Halloran, on the other hand, has pàd, pà: to show, reveal; to choose, call; to seek; to find; to declare; to swear, take an oath; to choose out of (with ablative prefix) (pà-dè in sing. marû; pà-pà-dè in plural marû) (sprout, branch + to go out; cp., pa...éd, 'to show; to make appear'; cf., ér...pàd) [PA3 archaic frequency: 30].
maybe a TK fit in this case would be something like deyḱ- "to point out" etc:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/dey%E1%B8%B1-
Halloran, on the other hand, has pàd, pà: to show, reveal; to choose, call; to seek; to find; to declare; to swear, take an oath; to choose out of (with ablative prefix) (pà-dè in sing. marû; pà-pà-dè in plural marû) (sprout, branch + to go out; cp., pa...éd, 'to show; to make appear'; cf., ér...pàd) [PA3 archaic frequency: 30].
maybe a TK fit in this case would be something like deyḱ- "to point out" etc:
Very interesting! :) .
About such meanings of Sum. pad as "to call; to seek; to find; to declare; to swear, take an oath" I was thinking also of some word like Gr. φάτις phatis (from *bhe- / *bha-) root "voice of an oracle, an oracle, Aesch., Soph. 2.a saying among men, common talk, rumour, report" :
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dfa%2Ftis
maybe as a PT root, compared to the TK of Latin dico "to say" etc ...
Maybe *bʰeh₂- "to shine, glow light" and *bʰeh₂-to speak, say" are of the same origin (as compared to Sum. pad "to show, to reveal, to find" but also "to declare, to take an oath" etc
was thinking also of some word like Gr. φάτις phatis (from *bhe- / *bha-) root "voice of an oracle, an oracle, Aesch., Soph. 2.a saying among men, common talk, rumour, report" :
Suggestive :) .
maybe as a PT root, compared to the TK of Latin dico "to say" etc ...
Yes .
Maybe *bʰeh₂- "to shine, glow light" and *bʰeh₂-to speak, say" are of the same origin (as compared to Sum. pad "to show, to reveal, to find" but also "to declare, to take an oath" etc
Very nice :D .
:D Why, there is, for example, a verb πιφαύσκω piphausko, a redupl. form of ΦΑ [PHA], Root of φαίνω [phaino < *bʰeh₂- "to shine, glow light"] only in pres. and imperf.
I.to make manifest, declare, tell of, Hom., Aesch.: absol., πιφαύσκων Διομήδεϊ making signal to him, Il.
2.to set forth words, utter, μῦθον, ἔπεα Od.
3.c. acc. et inf. to tell one to do, Aesch.
II.Mid. to make manifest, Il.; to tell of, disclose, Hom., Hes.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dpifau%2Fskw
I see :) .
*bʰeH- could be from some **gʰeH - like the **gʰe-n-d **gʰa-n-d we were talking about :)
One notices also that pad "to find, discover; to name, nominate" is written as pad3 = IGI.RU.
Another interesting word I think is palil [FOREMOST] (28x: ED IIIb, Old Babylonian) wr. palil; palil2 "first and foremost, pre-eminent" Akk. ašarēdu is written as IGI.DU; Halloran thinks it is from bala "to cross over" and lu2 "men"; there is also pašeš [FOREMOST] (6x: Old Babylonian) wr. pa4-šeš; pa5-šeš "foremost" Akk. ašarēdu (pa4 signh is the same with the pap one - about šeš we have talked already).
Putting palil and pašeš together, I was thinking of some type similar to this Gr. word (probably of "pre-Greek" origin):
βασιλεύς basileús m (genitive βᾰσῐλέως) "chief, master΄king, lord, patron΄the first of any class of people/objects"
From Proto-Hellenic *gʷatiléus, with σ (s) developing by assibilation. Cognate with Mycenaean Greek (qa-si-re-u), that is, gʷasileus. Further etymology uncertain. Mostly likely Pre-Greek in origin (i.e. Minoan), but possibly from an Anatolian language (see Lydian 𐤡𐤠𐤯𐤯𐤬𐤳 (battos, “king”)), although Mycenean (Linear B) evidence points to an original form with initial gʷ. Case-forms show Attic shortening of the original stem βασιληϝ- (basilēw-); Alternative forms[edit] βᾰσῐλῆος (basilêos) – Homeric, genitive βᾰσῐλῆϝος (basilêwos) – Arcadocypriot, genitive 𐠞𐠪𐠐𐠵𐠩 (pa-si-le-wo-se) – Cypriot, Cypriot syllabary.
For example if we take this Arcado-cypriot form "pa-si-le-" (the -wo-se is for Genitive) < **pa-ti-le-, the comparison with "palil" is mostly a t/l, like d/l, situation, I think.
Another question is if the -le-us ending is connected to a word like "lu".
*bʰeH- could be from some **gʰeH - like the **gʰe-n-d **gʰa-n-d we were talking about :)
Yes :) .
Another interesting word I think is palil [FOREMOST] (28x: ED IIIb, Old Babylonian) wr. palil; palil2 "first and foremost, pre-eminent" Akk. ašarēdu is written as IGI.DU; Halloran thinks it is from bala "to cross over" and lu2 "men"; there is also pašeš [FOREMOST] (6x: Old Babylonian) wr. pa4-šeš; pa5-šeš "foremost" Akk. ašarēdu (pa4 signh is the same with the pap one - about šeš we have talked already).
I agree :) .
For example if we take this Arcado-cypriot form "pa-si-le-" (the -wo-se is for Genitive) < **pa-ti-le-, the comparison with "palil" is mostly a t/l, like d/l, situation, I think.
Another question is if the -le-us ending is connected to a word like "lu".
Interesting :) .
Here there is a proposed etymology of "basileus" connecting the word to the root *gʷā- "to go" etc, like from < gʷati-leus; for example in Indic there is gātú- m. `going, motion; way, course", in Greek there is βάσις basis etc:
https://www.academia.edu/32680139/The_etymologies_of_basileus_and_hermeneus_proof.pdf
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2Fdata%2Fie%2Fpiet&text_number=++1754&root=config
If basileus is from *gʷa-ti-leus (like "one marching ahead" perhaps) and Sum. palil is, as Halloran says, from bala and lu; since "bala" could be also from *kwel / *kwal, as assumed already (also **gwal?); that leads again to think about some *gʷa-t / gʷa-l or (*kʷa-t / kʷa-l) parallel types, implying a moving notion.
BTW "palil" reminds also Hebrew galil, meaning "circle, wheel" etc (like in Galilee "district"):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%92%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9C#Hebrew
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Galilee
If basileus is from *gʷa-ti-leus (like "one marching ahead" perhaps) and Sum. palil is, as Halloran says, from bala and lu; since "bala" could be also from *kwel / *kwal, as assumed already (also **gwal?); that leads again to think about some *gʷa-t / gʷa-l or (*kʷa-t / kʷa-l) parallel types, implying a moving notion.
BTW "palil" reminds also Hebrew galil, meaning "circle, wheel" etc (like in Galilee "district"):
I agree Kyriakos :) .
Hi Nirhar,
I was wondering today about these phonetic changes from gw > b or gwh > bh, and all these initial bh-'s in IE; since, as it seems, there were only a few initial b's (if any) in the proto IE, it's a bit weird that so many roots exist having an initial bh-; the glottalic theory has its explanation about it, but another explanation could be that these bh's are mostly evolutions of some aspirated labial velar (like gwh).
BTW, about Sum. lu [PERSON] (12429x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Ebla, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, uncertain, unknown) wr. lu2; mu-lu; mu-lu2; lu10; lu6 "who(m), which; man; (s)he who, that which; of; ruler; person" Akk. amēlu; ša
one word comparable seems to be Burmese lu = "man (human being), person":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%80%9C%E1%80%B0
but another explanation could be that these bh's are mostly evolutions of some aspirated labial velar (like gwh).
Yes Kyriakos :) .
one word comparable seems to be Burmese lu = "man (human being), person":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%80%9C%E1%80%B0
Indeed! :) .
Maybe the ending -leus in "basileus" is Sino-Tibetan :P
Another curious thing is concerning some other word from "man" in Greek, which is φώς phos:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dfw%2Fs
looking almost just like phos "light" (contracted form of phaos); there is no etymology for this other phos "man", though:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CF%8E%CF%82
Maybe there is also in Sino-Tibetan a comperable word? :D just look here:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fchina%2fbigchina&text_number=+116&root=config
Proto-Sino-Tibetan: *Pă
Meaning: man, male
Chinese: 夫 *pa man.
Tibetan: pha-, -pa, -po male, man (affixes).
Burmese: phaʔ masculine affix.
Kiranti: *ba (~ bh-, -ǝ-, -o-)
Comments: Kham -pa the male of a species. Cf. *paH 'father' (perhaps the same root).
:D
Maybe the ending -leus in "basileus" is Sino-Tibetan :P
;) .
looking almost just like phos "light" (contracted form of phaos); there is no etymology for this other phos "man", though:
Very interesting ! :) .
Maybe there is also in Sino-Tibetan a comperable word? :D just look here
Looks probable! :D .
It's not even "Sino-Caucasian"; so I'm working for "out of India" theory, as it seems :D
BTW, I couldn't find the root of Burmese "lu" in ToB :/
It's not even "Sino-Caucasian"; so I'm working for "out of India" theory, as it seems :D
! :D .
BTW, I couldn't find the root of Burmese "lu" in ToB :/
I see .
About Sum. luĝa [DAMAGE] (2x: Old Babylonian) wr. luĝa; luĝ2 "damage; sin; shamelessness" Akk. hiţītu "shortfall, loss"; šillatu "impudence, shamelessness".
perhaps a comparison could be made with this root of Pokorny:
*slēgʷ- 'to press, oppress, mishandle'
Derivatives slōgʷā `Plage'[harm]
In ToB > Proto-IE: *slōgʷ-
Meaning: torment, punishment
Old Greek: lṓbǟ f. `Schimpf, Schmach, Schaden, Misshandlung'
Proto-Baltic: *slā̂g-ā̂ (2) f., *slāg-u- adj., *slā̂g- vb. inch., *slāg-in̂- vb.
Meaning: wound, harm
Lithuanian: slōgà `Plage, Landplage', slōgù- `beschwerlich', slōgìnti `plagen', prt. at-slṓgō `wurde vom Drucke frei'
Lettish: slâga `Schaden, Beschwerde; Krankheit, Seuche; Viehseuche'
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=++2672&root=config
Gr. lōba or lōbe (λώβη) means "1.despiteful treatment, outrage, dishonour, Hom., Hdt., attic:—esp. mutilation, maiming, Hdt. 2.of persons, a disgrace, Lat. opprobrium..."
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dlw%2Fbh
luĝa / Gr. lōba, like ĝ (nasal labiovelar) > b, luĝa / Lith. slōgà "harm" ("damage"), like ĝ > g.
perhaps a comparison could be made with this root of Pokorny:
Yes good one :) .
Gr. lōba or lōbe (λώβη) means "1.despiteful treatment, outrage, dishonour, Hom., Hdt., attic:—esp. mutilation, maiming, Hdt. 2.of persons, a disgrace, Lat. opprobrium..."
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dlw%2Fbh
luĝa / Gr. lōba, like ĝ (nasal labiovelar) > b, luĝa / Lith. slōgà "harm" ("damage"), like ĝ > g.
Nice :) .
Again about Sum. bala "turn, rotate" etc; I think that there is a parallel with, at least, some "kur" words; for example: bala "to change" - kur "to change"; bala "to revolt" - kur "to be hostile"; bala "to boil" - kur "burn" (there is also a bar "to burn"); maybe these are indications of the labiovelar kw/gw > b (and kw > k) in these words (with a l/r alteration for the second consonant).
maybe these are indications of the labiovelar kw/gw > b (and kw > k) in these words (with a l/r alteration for the second consonant).
Yup! :) .
This IE root *slēgʷ or *slōgʷ-, compared to Sum. luĝa "damage" etc makes me think about a potential connection of luĝa with some "silig" word; for example like the one meaning "ax", (like to cut / to damage).
I was wondering, also, if this root SLK for "cut" etc could have some connection with a root like *skel (or maybe **skʷel), as a kind of metathesis maybe.
I was wondering, also, if this root SLK for "cut" etc could have some connection with a root like *skel (or maybe **skʷel), as a kind of metathesis maybe.
Very interesting :) .
SLK looks like a KRK type word (like K'RK maybe, then SRK/SLK, then SKR/SKL for "cut" etc).
I agree :) .
BTW, about Sum. silig "bed", it reminds me an Amharic word alga meaning "bed, throne"; look here:
http://www.academia.edu/10367190/_Alfonso_V._In_Encyclopaedia_Aethiopica._Vol._1
maybe because of some "plosive loss", like K'LK > HLK :D
maybe because of some "plosive loss", like K'LK > HLK :D
Yes! :D .
The question is of course if *legʰ- "to lie" (to be in resting position) is derived also from a similar procedure :D
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/leg%CA%B0-
The question is of course if *legʰ- "to lie" (to be in resting position) is derived also from a similar procedure :D
True! :D .
I like the bed-like throne :D Amharic word alga for "bed/throne" looks again like ĝalga / malga "advice, forethought" etc, and the notion of long, stretched, I think. Not sure about that, though.
The Sum. word guza for "seat, throne" (Ak. kussu, maybe from a "kurs-") looks also to be connected to a root about "cutting" (the above kurs-, a kind of KRS root).
The Sum. word guza for "seat, throne" (Ak. kussu, maybe from a "kurs-") looks also to be connected to a root about "cutting" (the above kurs-, a kind of KRS root).
I think too :) .
I'm wondering now if the Gr. word ἄλγος algos "pain" (like in "nostalgia"), is derived from some similar meaning, like cut / pain.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%84%CE%BB%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%82
Good suggestion ! :) .
About luĝa "damage etc" again, the opposite word (like LK/KL) gul means "to destroy; to break; to flatten; to carve, cut; to engrave" (Akk. abātu; hepû; naqāru; sapānu); also gula means "desease".
I'm wondering also why luĝa is written with the PA sign; pa means "branch" (reminds of lu and phos for "man" :D ); in Greek κλών klṓn and κλάδος klados (branch/twig) are connected to a notion of "breaking off":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%BB%CF%8E%CE%BD#Ancient_Greek
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%BB%CE%AC%CE%B4%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
This PA sign is used also at the words about "rituals" etc like biluda (written as PA.AN) and ĝarza (PA.LUGAL).
pa is used also in pabilga "a kinship term (or ancestor)" Akk. abu; bilga means "fresh fruit; male ancestor" Akk. inbu.
yup :) .
Nirjhar, tonight's assumption is about Sum. kur "to enter", whivh reminds me Greek χωρέω khoreo = to make room for another, give way, draw back, retire, withdraw; to go forward, move on or along, Lat. incedere, and then simply to go or come; to go on, advance, Lat. procedere; to come to an issue, turn out in a certain manner; to spread abroad; also to have room for a thing, to hold, contain, esp. of measures:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dxwre%2Fw
χωρέω is connected to χῶρος khoros "a definite space, piece of ground, place" and χώρα khora "place, space, land, country".
Using the bala / kur comparison (assumed both from some labiovelar, as above mentioned) we have to compare in this case a "khOr" with "*kwel/kwer; maybe as **gwa-l/**gwa-r" or **gwHal/**gwHar (like giving also gur "turn") or in this case a **kwHal/**kwHar (giving perhaps kur).
χωρέω is connected to χῶρος khoros "a definite space, piece of ground, place" and χώρα khora "place, space, land, country".
Using the bala / kur comparison (assumed both from some labiovelar, as above mentioned) we have to compare in this case a "khOr" with "*kwel/kwer; maybe as **gwa-l/**gwa-r" or **gwHal/**gwHar (like giving also gur "turn") or in this case a **kwHal/**kwHar (giving perhaps kur).
I agree :) .
About Sum. šumsikil [VEGETABLE] (12x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. šum2-sikil; šum2-sikil-lum "an alliaceous vegetable" Akk. šamaškilu
must be from šum [GARLIC] (2958x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. šum2; šum2sar "garlic; onion" Akk. šūmū and sikil [PLANT] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. u2sikil "a medicinal plant" Akk. sikillu ; or maybe sikil [PURE] (457x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. sikil "(to be) pure" Akk. ebbu; ellu.
The meaning of "onion" reminded me of Gr. σκίλλα skilla "squill, Urginea maritima":
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dski%2Flla
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/squilla#Latin
There is also a word σκιλλοκρόμμυον skillokrommyon = σκίλλα skilla (krommyon means onion):
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dskillokro%2Fmmuon
About šum "garlic" there is also Akkadian šūmū [ŠÚM.(SAR):] (n. pl.) "garlic"
Comparison with other Semitic languages :
Proto-Semitic : *θūm
Arabic : θūm ثُوم
Hebrew : šūm שׁוּם
About krommyon "onion" there is a curious IE root *kermus-, *kremus- > like Proto-Germanic hramusô: From Proto-Indo-European *kermus-, *kremus- (“wild garlic”). Cognate with Lithuanian kermùšē (“wild garlic”), Russian черемша́ (cheremshá, “ramson, wild leek”), Ancient Greek κρόμμυον (krómmuon, “onion”), Middle Irish crim (“garlic”). There is no direct evidence of the medial -u- in any of the Germanic languages, but it is assumed based on evidence from other Indo-European languages.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/hramus%C3%B4
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpokorny&text_number=+935&root=config
apart from the ending -us looks like an opposite "mrd" root (like we supposed in the mud words); here could be a "KrM" let's say, word; maybe šum is a vocalised type, like from K'rM (this is the assumption of tonight :D) About skilla, there is no etymology; these both words (skilla / krommyon) remind the root skel/sker, in my opinion.
apart from the ending -us looks like an opposite "mrd" root (like we supposed in the mud words); here could be a "KrM" let's say, word; maybe šum is a vocalised type, like from K'rM (this is the assumption of tonight :D) About skilla, there is no etymology; these both words (skilla / krommyon) remind the root skel/sker, in my opinion.
Excellent! :D .
:D I was influenced in this assumption (of K'rM > SvM) by sun [ENTER] wr. sun5 "plural stem of kur[to enter]", I mean if sun was evolved from some K'r-N.
I see :) .
Do you think this sun (plural stem of kur) could be compared to this root?
Meaning: to push, to move
Hittite: suwai- (I) 'stoßen, drängen, schieben' (Friedrich 200)
Old Indian: savati `to go, move' (D.), savati, sauti `to urge, impel' (D.); suváti 'to set in motion, urge, impel', ptc. sutá-, sūta-; savá- m. 'instigator, stimulator', sávīman- n. 'setting in motion', savitár- m. 'stimulator, rouser, vivifier'
Avestan: hunāiti 'verschafft, sucht zu verschaffen', mainyu-šūta- 'vom Geist getrieben', hvąnmahi 'wir suchen zu verschaffen', apahvanvainti 'sie lenken ab'
Slavic: *sovā́ti, *sū́nǭtī
Celtic: OIr. sōim 'drehe, kehre'
Russ. meaning: толкать, приводить в движение
References: WP II 470 (differently in Vasm.)
There is also Pali savati < sravati < *srew:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/savati
Of course! :) .
There is also sub [GO] (2x: Old Babylonian) wr. sub2 "imperfect plural stem of ĝen[to go]" Akk. alāku, but I don't know if Sum. "b" could correspond with some "v"; maybe it could...
I think too :) .
I'm influencewd also by some reflexes of the *kēi- (or *k'ey-) root ("to move"): there is Gr. κίω kio and κινέω but also σεύω seuo "set in motion" etc (like Skt. cyávati 'set in motion'):
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dseu%2Fw
https://indo-european.info/pokorny-etymological-dictionary/whnjs.htm
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%B9%CE%BD%CE%AD%CF%89
Yes impressive :) .
"sun" reminds also the sin- of Sindhu:
Probably from the verbal root सेधति (sedhati, “to go, move”), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱiesdʰ- (“to drive away; to go away”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A7%E0%A5%81#Sanskrit
Yes Kyriakos! .
Also this *ḱiesdʰ- (or *ḱyesdʰ- ) root is a bit strange:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cedo#Latin
It looks very much like Sum. kešda or kešed /kešedr/ for "bind"; not with the same meaning obviously; yet, one wonders if the *sē(i)-3, -səi- : sī- und sei- : si- root "to bind" is just a type of some other root like ***k'ē(i)- etc... (like in case of the k'ē(i)/ sew etc of the root of the motion).
I agree! :) .
"binding" requires a kind of "circular motion" (I think I've already said about it); also the roots about sewing, spining *(s)neh₁- and sewing *sīw- could be from some ḱin- / ḱei roots about motion:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/(s)neh%E2%82%81-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sew
Of course!:) .
The root of "sew" is connected to the root of "sinew"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sinew
The same root (of sinew) in ToB has some interestin Nostratic:
Eurasiatic: *son/H/V
Meaning: sinew
Indo-European: *senew-, *snēw-
Altaic: *sūnu
Uralic: *se̮ne (*sōne) [but for Alt. cf. rather *sintä 'stretch' ]; cf. also *säŋä 'thread'
References: МССНЯ 341; ND 2081 *son[Vq][ü] 'sinew, tendon; root' (IE+Ur+ differ. Alt. + East Cush.).
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=+159&root=config
In Altaic there is an interesting root:
Proto-Altaic: *sūnu ( ~ -o)
Nostratic: Nostratic
Meaning: to stretch
Russian meaning: вытягивать
Turkic: *sūn-
Mongolian: *sunu-
Tungus-Manchu: *sūn-
Comments: KW 337, Poppe 30, 70. A Western isogloss, and a quite exceptional case of a V̄ : V̄ correspondence between PT and PTM (expressive root? or an old loanword, cf. Doerfer MT 46 ?). On the possibility of Mong. < Turk. see Щербак 1997, 147.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2falt%2fturcet&text_number=+364&root=config
From Ottoman Turkish صونمق (sunmak, “to present”), from Old Anatolian Turkish [script needed] (sun-, “to hold out, offer, present”), from Proto-Turkic *sūn- (“to stretch, stretch out”).[1] Related to Proto-Mongolic *sunu- (“to stretch out”), (cf. Mongolian сунах (sunah, “to extend, stretch”)) and Proto-Tungusic *sūn- (“to stretch out”) (cf. Evenki сӯн (sūn-, “to stretch out”)). Either inherited to all families from a common source or contact induced.[2]
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sunmak
Also here:
http://translation.babylon-software.com/turkish/to-english/sunmak/
Not sure, but I think it could be connected to Sum. šum [GIVE] (1656x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. šum2 (sum); ze2-eĝ3 "to give" Akk. nadānu
Not sure, but I think it could be connected to Sum. šum [GIVE] (1656x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. šum2 (sum); ze2-eĝ3 "to give" Akk. nadānu
Very good proposal :) .
Emesal ze-eĝ for šum reminds the ze-eb for dub "knee"...
One can notice also that there is a sun [HUMBLE] (48x: Old Babylonian) wr. sun5 "(to be) humble"; but also a dun [HUMBLE] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. dun5-na "humble" Akk. wašru.
Maybe there was a kind of "archaic palatal sound" ;) which could evolve to several sounds, as initial letter of several roots like g'-/k'- in one and maybe d-/t- in some other, then from k' we could have s- etc...
Maybe there was a kind of "archaic palatal sound" ;) which could evolve to several sounds, as initial letter of several roots like g'-/k'- in one and maybe d-/t- in some other, then from k' we could have s- etc...
Very interesting! :) .
For example a "d" like the "don-" of Latin donum "gift" etc (from *deH3 "to give")
Yes :) .
Or like the d or dalankh- or th of thalas-, the s of saras etc with a possible meaning of stretching, we have been talking about already.
yeah :) .
There is also a hum [SNAP] (8x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. hum "to snap off; to run, flow (bodily fluids); to move, be in motion" Akk. hamāšu; rahāšu.
I think enough assumptions for today, Nirjhar :)
okay :) .
About Sum. šab [TRIM] (25x: Old Babylonian) wr. šab "to inspect exta; to incise; to draw, design; to gather together, collect, scrape up; to break off, deduct; to trim, peel off; to dig, hollow out; to have a grooved shape; to cut, fell (of trees); to become loose, fall out; to disintegrate; to disappear; to make clear" Akk. barû ša uzu; esēpu; harāru; harāşu; harāşu; eşēru; harāşu; šarāmu; nakāsu; šahāhu
One possible comparison could be with Pokorny's root *(s)kē̆p-, (s)kō̆p-, and (s)kā̆p-, (s)kē̆b(h)-, skob(h)-, and skā̆b(h)- 'to cut, shave, split with sharp tool (especially about the meanings 'to incise; to draw, design; to scrape up; to break off, deduct; to trim, peel off; to dig, hollow out; to have a grooved shape').
One possible comparison could be with Pokorny's root *(s)kē̆p-, (s)kō̆p-, and (s)kā̆p-, (s)kē̆b(h)-, skob(h)-, and skā̆b(h)- 'to cut, shave, split with sharp tool (especially about the meanings 'to incise; to draw, design; to scrape up; to break off, deduct; to trim, peel off; to dig, hollow out; to have a grooved shape').
Yup :) .
Trying to find a comparable word for the meaning "to inspect" (exta) of šab, also similar in form with *(s)kē̆p-, I was thinking about Gr. σκέψις skepsis for examining etc, but this is from *speḱ- with metathesis
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%AD%CF%88%CE%B9%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/spe%E1%B8%B1-
maybe *speḱ- is a metathesised form of (s)kē̆p-, (s)kā̆p-? :D
maybe *speḱ- is a metathesised form of (s)kē̆p-, (s)kā̆p-? :D
Makes sense :D .
About the meanings "to become loose, fall out; to disintegrate; to disappear; to make clear" I remembered a Gr. word σαβακός sabakos "shattered; metaph. enervated, Anth. deriv. uncertain
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dsabako%2Fs
If it was also from some 'skab' the "k" has been absorbed, I'm afraid.
Yes :) .
Another Gr. word without "k" I can think of is σπάω spao (of violent actions like to pluck off or out etc); it's the root of "spasm"; also without etymology (etymonline though thinks it's from a *spe "to stretch"):
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dspa%2Fw
https://www.etymonline.com/word/spasm
Interesting! :) .
Maybe from some **speH < spek? (through some plosive loss?) < skep? looks also like *(s)peh₂- (“to draw”) like in σπάθη spathe "blade":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%80%CE%AC%CE%B8%CE%B7
Lokks good :) .
Halloran's Lexicon (2006) has šab (PA.IB): n., middle; stem; cut hair; plucked wool; clay sealing, sealed bulla (cf., sabad; [dug]šab) [ŠAB archaic frequency: 61; concatenation of 2 sign variants].
v., to subtract, deduct; to bite off; to snip out, chip out; to trim, peel off; to fall out, disappear; to apportion (lots); to gather up (portion + divide).
Yes.
When we were talking about zuh, stayu etc, roots like steg, skwel/stel or spel (for stealing, cut, cover etc), I said that roots meaning "cut" and "cover" looks identical, probably because coverings were made by cutten wood; seems to be the same in *skep- "to cut" / *skep "to cover".
I mean this rare root of Pokorny (s)kep-1 "to cover" > Material: Gr. σκέπας skepas, -αος n. `cover, Hölle, Schutzdach', ion. att. σκέπη skepe f. `cover, protection, Schirm', σκεπάζω, σκεπάω, σκέπω `bedecke, verhölle, schötze'; lit. kepùrė `Mötze', lett. cepure `Mötze, Hut; Bedeckung the Kornhaufen auf dem Felde', russ. čepéc `Haube' etc.
which I thought is connected to Skr. kṣáp, kṣapā́ "night" kʷsep- (ö) (Pokorny's *ĝʷhsep-) from a notion of "cover".
I remember Kyriakos :) .
Since I don't think a *kʷsep- root to be very much probable, I would propose to consider that kṣap- is in the reality the initial word root and all *skep roots are from it.
As for example in kSapayati "destry, annihilate" etc
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=kSApayati&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
Of course! :) .
"Thorn cluster" (kSi- etc); which in Greek turns to be φθι- phthi- or ψι- psi- (like in "psisis", compared with Sum. "ibiza" loss etc).
Yup :) .
Even the word "sceptic" as "someone who doubts the truth or value of an idea or belief" seems to be nihilistic :D
! :D .
There is also a Sum. suh [EXTRACT] (67x: ED IIIb) wr. suh5; suh "to tear out; to extract; to choose" Akk. nasāhu
looks like "zuh"; reminds also of a Gr. word σώχω sokho "rub to pieces, grind":
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dsw%2Fxw
which seems connexted also to ψώχω psokho (ψώω psoo) "rub small":
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dyw%2Fxw
maybe connected too.
Yes, possible :) .
Pokorny has compared ψώχω etc with Skrt. psAti "consume, devour" etc:
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=psati&direct=se
Maybe you have also some "Greek" layer, not only we an "Indic" one :P
Yeah :) .
In Pokorny is *bhes- (like in Gr. ψάω psao "to rub" etc); in II it became bhsA < bhs-eH (ved. psA); I think it could be from the same root like kSiti etc.
BTW, in Halloran there is a Sum. word peš4,13: n., river pebble (I haven't found in the ePSD); not sure, yet this word looks like Gr. ψῆφος psephos meaning the same thing (from *bhes):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%88%E1%BF%86%CF%86%CE%BF%CF%82
Intriguing :) .
Also intriguing another root of Pokorny *pe(n)s "dust, sand"
roto-IE: *pē(n)s-
Meaning: sand
Hittite: passila- c. 'Kieselstein', (?) passu-, pissu- 'Felsblock?' (Friedrich 165, 170)
Old Indian: pāṁsú- m., pāṁsuka- n. `dust, sand'
Avestan: pąsnu- 'Staub, Sand'
Slavic: *pēsъkъ
Hittite passila seems to mean "pebble" or at least some small rock:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+907&root=config
True :) .
In Gr. there is also a word πεσσός pessos "an oval-shaped stone for playing a game", which looks also similar:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dpesso%2Fs
Yes :) .
A word for "stone" in Greek is λᾶας laas (lapis in Latin):
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dla%3Das
A bit bizzare idea would be the Sum. "na" for stone as having a dialectical form "la" for "stone" (you know like nigir/libir).
nice! :D .
:D Also, about Latin lapis: "May be connected with Ancient Greek λέπας (lépas, “bare rock, crag”), from Proto-Indo-European *lep- (“to peel”). Confer with saxum - secō, rupēs - rumpō."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lapis
On the other hand, the Akkadian word for Sum. "na" is abnu "stone"; Semitic root here:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=+883&root=config
abnu reminded me of Gr. εὐναί eunai "mooring-stones, which served as anchors, having cables (πρυμνήσια) attached to them, and being cast into the water or upon the shore" (plural of εὐνή eune (1) place to lie, bed, couch" etc. Like in the word "eunuch":
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0073%3Aentry%3Deu)nh%2F
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/eunuch
Seemingly unrelated; yet, if a word of stone may be connected to a notion of peel or cut; and the "bed" in Sum. silig may be connected also to a notion of "cut", then it could be possible that a root about "cut" to be used both for bed and stone.
Seemingly unrelated; yet, if a word of stone may be connected to a notion of peel or cut; and the "bed" in Sum. silig may be connected also to a notion of "cut", then it could be possible that a root about "cut" to be used both for bed and stone.
lovely ! :D .
:D "Uncertain. Compare Old Irish huom, uom, Avestan 𐬎𐬥𐬁 (unā), and Latin exuō, venus."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B5%E1%BD%90%CE%BD%CE%AE#Ancient_Greek
Avestan una seems to mean "empty", though:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=1186&root=config
but the Gr. word κενός kenos "empty" is from a *ken word (k'en) also :D
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%B5%CE%BD%CF%8C%CF%82
but the Gr. word κενός kenos "empty" is from a *ken word (k'en) also :D
! yeah ! :D .
Besides, there is also nud [LIE] (419x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian), wr. nud; nux(|HU.NA2|) "to lie down (of people); to lay down; to be ill" Akk. utulu; and nud is written as na2, nu2; also Halloran has [ĝiš]nad3, na2: bed, couch (na2 = nu2-a, 'to lie down' + nominative [from R. Englund]) [NA2 archaic frequency:
72; concatenates 4 sign variants]; even na4, one writing of na "stone, pebble" is written as NI.UD.
There is also na deg [CLEAR] (80x: ED IIIb, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. na degx(RI); ša di(ES); ša di-di(ES); ša di-di5(ES); ša di5(ES) "to make clear, explain; to consecrate, purify; to separate; to clear out, cut out" Akk. ašāru; elēlu; hasāsu.
Halloran: na...de5[RI]: to give advice, instructions; to cleanse; to fell trees (cf., na...ri(-g)) (prohibitive/affirmative + 'to advise').
In Emesal is ša instead of na; in EPSD there is ša [SNAP] (6x: Old Babylonian) wr. ša5 "to snap off" Akk. haşāşu.
So, I think many of the words - meanings discussed (like "cut", "extract", "peel", "bed", "advice" etc are involved.
So, I think many of the words - meanings discussed (like "cut", "extract", "peel", "bed", "advice" etc are involved.
oh yes :) .
Another thought, concerning the "kṣap-" in this case, is about šab [SEALING] (9x: ED IIIa, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. šab "clay sealing, sealed bulla" Akk. šipassu
beeing connected to a word we have already met: kišib [SEAL] (17468x: ED IIIb, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. kišib3; kišib; [na4]kišib "cylinder seal, sealed tablet" Akk. kunukku. maybe with a notion of supress or press:
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=kSapaNa&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
Mind also, that one of the writings of "kišib" is [na4]kišib, and mostly, concerning again kṣap- "night, darkness" the sign of "kišib" is the same with mes [BLACKNESS] (56x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. mes; [ĝeš]mes "blackness, black spot; black wood" Akk. şulmu; maybe because of a black-wood made seal.
Very interesting! :D .
:D Some say also that Akkadian abnu for "na" stone, or a similar Semitic root, is connected to the root of "ebony" (like "a hard, like stone, black wood"):
https://www.etymonline.com/word/ebony
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hbnj#Egyptian
Yes, makes sense :) .
There is also šaba [STONE] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. na4ša-ba "type of stone"; maybe from kṣapa? :D
Why not? :D .
About šab [HIPS] (12x: Old Babylonian) wr. šab "hips; middle" Akk. qablu
I think we can assume also here a "thorn cluster"; the TK word must be tuhul [HIP] (ETCSL: tugul=hip) (5x: Old Babylonian) wr. tuhul "hip bone" Akk. giššu.
I agree :) .
The TK type in case of šab [TRIM] (25x: Old Babylonian) wr. šab "to inspect exta; to incise; to draw, design; to gather together, collect, scrape up; to break off, deduct; to trim, peel off; to dig, hollow out; to have a grooved shape; to cut, fell (of trees); to become loose, fall out; to disintegrate; to disappear; to make clear" Akk. barû ša uzu; esēpu; harāru; harāşu; harāşu; eşēru; harāşu; šarāmu; nakāsu; šahāhu
must be tuk [BREAK] wr. tukx(|IM.KAD3|) "to break off, pinch off; to cut, fell; to demolish; to scratch; to soften, dissolve" Akk. karāşu; nakāsu; naqāru; narābu
maybe also tuku [BEAT] (151x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. tuku5 "to beat, strike of cloth; to weave" Akk. mahāşu
must be tuk [BREAK] wr. tukx(|IM.KAD3|) "to break off, pinch off; to cut, fell; to demolish; to scratch; to soften, dissolve" Akk. karāşu; nakāsu; naqāru; narābu
maybe also tuku [BEAT] (151x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. tuku5 "to beat, strike of cloth; to weave" Akk. mahāşu
Yes! :) .
There is also tugul [BOAT] (4x: Ur III) wr. [ĝeš]tu-gul "a part of a boat?" which could correspond to ĝisal [RUDDER] (19x: ED IIIb, Old Babylonian) wr. [ĝeš]ĝisal "rudder, oar; a roof part" Akk. gišallu
as TK / KS types of a thorn cluster again.
Of course :) .
Have you noticed that tugul/tuhul for "hip" is written like NAGAR.ZAtenu ?
[[tuhul]] = = [NAGAR].ZA@t = gi-iš-šu
like nagar "carpenter", I mean, a notion of "cut"...
No! :O .
Do not forget our loving word nagar! :P :D
But why you seem so surprised? tugul/tuhul means also "hip-bone" we have encountered in Giacomo's post ĝiripadra :D "bone"; ĝiri "bone", like ĝiri "dagger" and "foot"; and "padra" could be from pad [BREAK] (56x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, unknown wr. pad "to break (into bits)" Akk. kasāpu (this last one must be the PT of the thorn cluster; I think we have discussed about all these before").
Do not forget our loving word nagar! :P :D
YES ! :D .
could be from pad [BREAK] (56x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, unknown wr. pad "to break (into bits)" Akk. kasāpu (this last one must be the PT of the thorn cluster; I think we have discussed about all these before").
Yes :) .
This one will make you smile (again):
tugul for "hip" reminded me Gr. γλουτός gloutos "buttock" (as a kind of TK-L / KL-T metathesis :D); it has not clear etymology, yet “The Diccionario Griego–Español cites the Proto-Indo-European *gelh₁w-. It's apparently cognate with the Sanskrit ग्लौ (glaú, “round lump”) and the English clot, so Proto-Indo-European *glūdos?”
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%85%CF%84%CF%8C%CF%82
See it as a kind of "intermezzo" in this searching :)
tugul for "hip" reminded me Gr. γλουτός gloutos "buttock" (as a kind of TK-L / KL-T metathesis :D); it has not clear etymology, yet “The Diccionario Griego–Español cites the Proto-Indo-European *gelh₁w-. It's apparently cognate with the Sanskrit ग्लौ (glaú, “round lump”) and the English clot, so Proto-Indo-European *glūdos?”
Very nice! :) .
See it as a kind of "intermezzo" in this searching :)
:) .
BTW, what about "thigh"? it includes also a "thorn cluster":
"From Middle English thighe, thehe, from Old English þēoh, þīoh, from Proto-Germanic *þeuhą (compare West Frisian tsjea, Dutch dij, Middle High German diech, Icelandic þjó), from Proto-Indo-European *tewk- (compare Irish tóin (“hind, rump”), Lithuanian táukas (“fat”), Russian тук (tuk, “animal fat”)).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/thigh
Yes , of course :) .
One other word I can think of is pahal [LEG] (2x: Old Babylonian) wr. pa4-hal "leg" (looks also like pah [LEG] wr. pah "leg of an animal, haunch, lap" Akk. purīdu).
Halorran has: pap-hal(-la): n., leg, thigh; confinement, poverty; share (Akk. loan, cf., hal, ha-la). v., to walk. adj., walking about, movable.
hal: n., crotch, upper thigh;secret; divination expert; portion, share (cf., ha-la and pap-hal(-la)) (loans from Akkadian hallu I and pahallu; cf., Orel & Stolbova #1928, *pahal- "leg, thigh" and #1929, *pahal- "break through, split") [HAL archaic frequency: 53].
v., to stream, run; to divide; to deal out, distribute (hal-þa in marû).
Again the same notions, I think.
Maybe *ped / *pod is just the PT type of a TK thorn cluster :P
Again the same notions, I think.
Maybe *ped / *pod is just the PT type of a TK thorn cluster :P
Yes, likely :) .
On the other hand "thigh" is usually connected to tewh₂- "swell" etc:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/tewh%E2%82%82-
and seems similar to the root *tewk for "offspring" etc:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/tewk-
in this case it reminds that "pap" is also a relation word (pap [RELATION] (86x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. pap "first and foremost, pre-eminent; father; male, virile; brother" Akk. abu; ahu; ašarēdu; zikaru
reminding also the IE "pt-r" for father; I mean something like the **KwKw-r root we assumed for "father" (like reduplicated Kw); since pap could be just the PP of the **KwKw.
About tewk, Wikipedia says "Possibly analyzed as *tewh₂-k- or *tewH-k-, though the evidence is unclear[1]. Superficially similar to *(s)tewk- (“to strike, hit”) but unclear whether semantically related." (stewk is comparable to tuku5 "to beat, weave etc", we have said already about that (seems also comparable also to some KrK root, like in Gr. kerkos).
We could keep talking about these same things all the time, Nirjhar...
reminding also the IE "pt-r" for father; I mean something like the **KwKw-r root we assumed for "father" (like reduplicated Kw); since pap could be just the PP of the **KwKw.
About tewk, Wikipedia says "Possibly analyzed as *tewh₂-k- or *tewH-k-, though the evidence is unclear[1]. Superficially similar to *(s)tewk- (“to strike, hit”) but unclear whether semantically related." (stewk is comparable to tuku5 "to beat, weave etc", we have said already about that (seems also comparable also to some KrK root, like in Gr. kerkos).
Of course! :) .
We could keep talking about these same things all the time, Nirjhar...
:) .
About Halloran's paphal (or pahal) as "portion, share", connected obviosly to hala [SHARE] (91x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. ha-la; hal "inheritance share" Akk. zittu (btw it's also hal [THIGH] (3x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. hal; u2-lum "upper thigh" Akk. hallu)
I thought, if you remember, that this hal could be related to a (reversed) type λαχ- lakh- in Greek for "lot, share"; I remembered now another word παλάσσω palasso I.to besprinkle, sully, defile, Od.; mostly in Pass., Hom.:—Mid., παλάσσετο χεῖρας he defiled his hands, Il.
2.Pass. also of things, to be scattered abroad, id=Il.
II.perf. pass. of lots shaken in an urn, κλήρῳ πεπαλάχθαι "kleroi pepalakthai"] to determine one's fate by lot, Hom.; cf. πάλος.
From πάλλω pallo "to shake":
πάλος [α^], ὁ, palos（A.“πάλλω” [pallo = shake] 1.3) lot cast from a shaken helmet, A.Th. 458. 2. Lyr., Ion., and Trag. generally, = κλῆρος, lot..."
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dpa%2Flos1
I think there is also a word παλαχή palakhe = "lot".
About the word for stone and the connection with "share, lot" maybe pebbles etc were used (in an urn maybe) "to determine one's fate by lot".
I thought, if you remember, that this hal could be related to a (reversed) type λαχ- lakh- in Greek for "lot, share"; I remembered now another word παλάσσω palasso I.to besprinkle, sully, defile, Od.; mostly in Pass., Hom.:—Mid., παλάσσετο χεῖρας he defiled his hands, Il.
Of course! :) .
I think there is also a word παλαχή palakhe = "lot".
About the word for stone and the connection with "share, lot" maybe pebbles etc were used (in an urn maybe) "to determine one's fate by lot".
Beautiful! :) .
palakhe here: πᾰλᾰχή, ἡ, (A παλάσσω 111) anything acquired by lot, = ἀρχή, λῆξις, μοῖρα, γενεά, Hsch.; ἐκ παλαχῆς, = ἐξ ἀρχῆς, Nic.Th.449 (cf. Sch.ad loc.); but παλαχῆθεν· ἐκ γενεᾶς, ἐκ παλαιοῦ, Hsch.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dpalaxh%2F
meaning also many things "acquired by fate" (μοῖρα moira), like family / race (γενεά genea), beginning and ending (ἀρχή arkhe, λῆξις leexis).
Maybe there is a sort of connection with the "pa-" in Sum. words like pabilga "kinship term / relation".
Maybe there is a sort of connection with the "pa-" in Sum. words like pabilga "kinship term / relation".
I also think that :) .
It could be the basic "pa" ( < kwa) of these KK roots.
In Greek there is also another verb πάομαι paomai, meaning "get, acquire, possess), usually in its p.perfect form πέπαμαι pepamai; porobably from a root "kwa", because, as Chantrain writes, in Boeotic there is a word with an initial double ππ > ππάματα ππαματα "things possessed", which leads to a kw (like in Gr. "hippos" for horse):
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dpa%2Fomai
I think it could be connected with *tkei etc (like in Sum. tuku) as its basic root (Kw-); Chantrain doubts about this, yet says that this (the connection with ktaomai < tkei) was Kretchmer's opinion. Chantrain says though that this word paomai approaches the word πάτωρ pator, maybe even πατήρ pater "father".
I think it could be connected with *tkei etc (like in Sum. tuku) as its basic root (Kw-); Chantrain doubts about this, yet says that this (the connection with ktaomai < tkei) was Kretchmer's opinion. Chantrain says though that this word paomai approaches the word πάτωρ pator, maybe even πατήρ pater "father".
! :D .
Chantraine (sorry for the wrong spelling before:) ) mentions several comparisons also το some Sanskrit words, like Svatra "profitable, strong" and even Sura "strong, hero", here the word κύριος kyrios "lord" (like in Kyriakos :D) seems connected to πάομαι paomai.
In Pokorny πέπαμαι pepamai is among the k̂eu-1, k̂eu̯ǝ- : k̂ū-, k̂u̯ā- words for swelling; Chantraine thinks though some comparisons of Pokorny in this root as doubtful.
here the word κύριος kyrios "lord" (like in Kyriakos :D) seems connected to πάομαι paomai.
In Pokorny πέπαμαι pepamai is among the k̂eu-1, k̂eu̯ǝ- : k̂ū-, k̂u̯ā- words for swelling; Chantraine thinks though some comparisons of Pokorny in this root as doubtful.
I understand :) .
The root of swelling fits certainly to the pap-hal or pahal for a notion of leg, thigh...
A last observation for today, Nirjhar: it's about the notion of "destruction" again: there is halam [FORSAKE] (107x: ED IIIb, Lagash II, Old Babylonian) wr. ha-lam; gel-le-eĝ3 "(to be) bad, evil; to forsake, forget; to destroy" Akk. halāqu; lapātu; lemnu; mašû
A kind of KrK root; and since the hal- part could be of some same source with hal- "lot, share" , I think that there could be some relation to the root of Gr. kleros "lot" (I have already mentioned it, if you remember) "From Proto-Indo-European *kleh₂-, from *kelh₂- (“to hit, cut down”). Cognate with κόλαφος (kólaphos), Latin clādes, Scots holt (“a wood, copse. thicket”), North Frisian holt (“wood, timber”) etc"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%BB%E1%BF%86%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%82
Of course! , I agree :) .
I think if the pa or pap words kinship et are of some KwKw (doubled Kw) thorn cluster, then the other word hibiz "heir" we have enountered already, must be the PS type. I remember I have said (at December 27th, 2017) "Then it is possible that the other gʷʰen- for "swelling, flourishing" etc to have "its own" TK thorn cluster, like *dgʷhey- or a similar **dgʷh-, so we could have also ibiz for "heir" with some meaning of abundance, swell, prosper, blossoming etc." (the gʷʰen- for "swelling, flourishing was a similar root to gʷʰen- for destrying, killing, like kṣanoti, Gr. phthino, phthisis, psisis etc, compared to Sum. ibiza, like the root kṣi- etc).
Yup :).
BTW, there is a Gr. φοινός "blood-red, blood-stained, murderous"; perhaps related to φόνος phonos "murder":
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dfoino%2Fs
I mean, there is also hibiz [RED] wr. hibiz "red" Akk. ruššû :D
Maybe from HPS type of some cluster related to gʷʰen- for murder? (unless it is for "swelling, flourishing", like red-blossoming").
Good! :D .
φοινός phoinos is connected to the Phoenicians; also the mythical bird phoenix etc:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%A6%CE%BF%E1%BF%96%CE%BD%CE%B9%CE%BE
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%96%E0%A4%BC%E0%A5%82%E0%A4%A8
I think the above is also related! :) .
Most probably! :)
About the Old Egyptian fnḫw, Wikipedia says:
"Probably from the plural of fnḫ (“carpenter, woodcutter”), in connection with the Egyptian trade in lumber in Canaan."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fn%E1%B8%ABw#Egyptian
Like Sum. nagar "carpenter", again :D
Maybe the other Sumerian word for "red" huš could be related, too.
Like Sum. nagar "carpenter", again :D
Yeah! :D .
Maybe the other Sumerian word for "red" huš could be related, too.
Yes :) .
I rememner that we have said that *Hreudh- for "red" looks like *Hleudh "free", but also "growing, people" etc, like Lat. liber or Gr. eleutheros; and I thought that liber could be related to nagara, because of a Sum. style dissimilation, like libir / nigir :D
! :D .
The Akkadian form ruššû is surely connected:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/russus
Yeah! :D .
Maybe Sum. huš is a ruš with a "r" missing; like from (H(r)K' a kind of KwrKw'/HrK'>/HK'>/Hš.
Like in "mud" < from "mrd", perhaps.
Yes, possible :) .
But Sumerian has also "urud" for copper.
Latin purpura and Gr. porphyra ( > "purple") must me from a connected PrP style root.
Sum. si, sa or sig for "red" must me a from a kind of SK one.
Yes :) .
BTW, do you think that Sum. kišar [EARTH] (35x: Old Akkadian, Old Babylonian) wr. ki-šar2 "totality; the whole earth; horizon" , Akkadian kiššat erşeti; kiššatu could be connected perhaps with kSiti etc?
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=ksiti&direct=au
Possible :) .
Another thought, similar to the one about halam or Emesal gel-le-eĝ3"(to be) bad, evil; to forsake, forget; to destroy" and its possible connection to *kleh₂- < from *kelh₂- (“to hit, cut down”), would be the one about a similar comparison of this same root (*kelh₂) with some Sum. "gilim" words; like for example gilim [CROSS] (25x: Old Babylonian) wr. gilim; gilibx(|GI%GI|)ib; gi16-il; gil-gilil "to lie across; to be entwined; to entwine, twist; to block; (to be) difficult to understand" Akk. egēru; parāku; which could fit to a meaning of "cut" (like stop or hinder or having a dificculty).
I agree :) .
gilim reminded me Gr. κλῆμα (klêma) from. κλάω "a vine-twig, vine-branch, Lat. palmes, Ar., Plat.: generally, a cutting, slip":
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dklh%3Dma
it could fit to the meaning "to be entwined; to entwine, twist"; also could be compared also to the other gilim [FOLIAGE] (47x: Ur III, Early Old Babylonian) wr. gigilim; ĝešgilim "foliage; forest" Akk. gūru; halbu, I think.
Interesting! :) .
In Greek the word about "hinder, prevent" etc is κωλύω (kōlū́ō), which seems also close
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%89%CE%BB%CF%8D%CF%89
The vocalism (with a omega) could lead to another Sum. word for destruction gul [DESTROY] (518x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. gul; gu-ul "to destroy; to break; to flatten; to carve, cut; to engrave" Akk. abātu; hepû; naqāru; sapānu.
I see :) .
Since also in Halloran's Lexicon it is gul: v., to destroy, demolish (as preparation for rebuilding); to be destroyed; to obstruct; to extinguish; to cease; to fall upon (with -ši-); to wreck to pieces, to destroy utterly (with -ta-) (reduplication class)
(gu7, 'to consume' + ul, 'ancient, enduring') [GUL archaic frequency: 24].
adj., evil; enormous.
gul having thus also a meaning "to obstruct, to cease".
Yes, I agree ! :) .
At Hesychius I found a word κλαμμίς klammis = ἀναδενδράς anadendras "vine that grows up trees"
(anadendras is from ἀνά ana = "up" and δένδρον dendron = "tree"); for the meaning "folliage, forest".
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*k%3Aentry+group%3D123%3Aentry%3Dklammi%2Fs
For the meaning "to block" I was thinking also about the root of "close"
https://www.etymonline.com/word/close
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/claudo#Latin
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/(s)kleh%E2%82%82w-
That seems close :D too. ;)
Also seems to be from (s)kel.
Also, this old High German sliozan (“to close, conclude, lock”), looks close to the "silig" words, which is for "cut", it seems though that it is also for prevent, cease, stop, too.
So, all these roots must be connected, I think.
That seems close :D too. ;)
Indeed ! :) .
Also, this old High German sliozan (“to close, conclude, lock”), looks close to the "silig" words, which is for "cut", it seems though that it is also for prevent, cease, stop, too.
So, all these roots must be connected, I think.
Yes! :D .
I checked Halloran's Lexicon (2006 ed.) and it has "gilim-(b), gilibx, gili, gil, gi16, ge16: n., reed bundle; reed rope, reed post; dancer; bride crown (cf. gi16 - sa) (gi, 'reeds', + lam, 'abundance'; Akk. kilimbu, 'reed bundle') [GIL archaic frequency: 1].
v., to twist; twine together; to twine reeds into a bundle or rope; to bend, bow; to cross, bar, block; to fence off; to lie athwart; to go across; to cross plow; to mess up, to destroy.
adj., to be twisted, tangled; opaque; to be corrupted, condused; destroyed (cf. gil-le-em3 and ha-lam)"; gil-le-em3 is Emesal dialect for halam or gilim acoording to Halloran.
gilim as "reed post", "reed rope" etc reminds *ḱl̥h₂mos for "reed":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%B1%CE%BC%CE%BF%CF%82
Gr. κάλαμος kalamos looks also similar to the word kalam ("land of Sumer") which Whittaker thinks it's from this root *ḱl̥h₂mos for "reed", meaning a land with reeds; which I have the impression it is from some root denoting a plain, a stretched land etc (like from some **(s)kwel...).
About Halloran's gilim as "dancer" I found at Hesychius a word κολέα kolea or κολία kolia "a kind of dance":
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkole%2Fa
No etymology, I'm afraid. There is also a verb with "r", κοράσσει korassei "he/she dances"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*k%3Aentry+group%3D150%3Aentry%3Dkora%2Fssei
which seems closer to χορός khoros "dance":
Etymology: Uncertain. Has traditionally been derived from a Proto-Indo-European *ǵʰer- (“catch”), cognate to χόρτος (khórtos, “enclosure”) and Sanskrit हरति (harati). However, the word is phonetically identical to Lithuanian žaras, and so could perhaps be from a Proto-Indo-European *ǵʰoros.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%87%CE%BF%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%82
I'm not sure what exactly is going on here :/
I have the impression it is from some root denoting a plain, a stretched land etc (like from some **(s)kwel...).
Yes :D .
The meaning of gilim as "to bend, bow" reminded me again Gr. κλίνω klínō "to bend, lean" etc (in fact, "lean" is from this same root):
Reanalysed root of *ḱléyti, from *ḱel- (“to incline”) + *-éyti (*éy-present suffix).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%BB%CE%AF%CE%BD%CF%89
gilim in this case looks like Sum. galam "stairs", which I thought is like Gr. κλίμαξ klimax, also from the same root *ḱel- (“to incline”):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%BB%E1%BF%96%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%BE
So, galam, is another word matching this scheme, I think.
Of course I agree :) .
The word gulma you compared to galam though fits well also to gilim "folliage, forest" I think :D
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=gulma&direct=se
Yes ! :) .
Looks also the gul for destruction :D
I remembered now a root of Bomhard you have posted once, I think gal "to scratch, to scrape" or ghel or gel (ghal, ghel) "to cut" or gel/ghel "to plow" (like to cut) maybe also some similar root for shaving etc...
Yes :) .
Do you think the word śūla is connected, maybe through some k'ul- version, meaning "cut"? Maybe also with Sum. sil, silig etc?
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=sula&direct=au
Of course :) .
The Akkadian equivalent of gil / gilim, that is egēru, could ve connected also ultimately (because of l/r - a kind og HKR):
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=5985&language=id
genarally these notions remind the root *(s)kel:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/(s)kel-
I agree :) .
Concerning also šab "trim" we supposed connected to kṣap-/ kṣan- (as kṣa-p-/ kṣa-n-) etc, I can think of a Gr. word ξαίνω xaino I.to comb or card wool, so as to make it fit for spinning, Od., etc. 2.of cloth, to full or dress it, Ar. II.metaph. to dress, thrash, beat:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dcai%2Fnw
I think ξαίνω xaino is very clearly connected to kṣan- (as perhaps an Indic-like root in Greek):
क्षन् kṣan [ kSan ]
1 ( or kṣaṇ ), cl. 8. P. kṣaṇóti ( aor. akṣaṇīt Pāṇ. 7-2, 5 ; a-kṣaṇvat )., to hurt, injure, wound ŚBr. ( inf. kṣaṇítos, xiv, 8, 14, 4 ) Kum. v, 54
to break ( a bow ) Ragh. xi, 72 : Ā. kṣaṇuté ( aor. Subj. 2. sg. kṣaṇiṣṭhās, Pot. kṣaṇvīta ), to hurt one's self, be injured or wounded AV. x, 1, 16 ŚBr. iv, 4, 3, 13 and 6 , 1, 6 TBr. iii
[ cf. κτείνω, καίνω, ξαίνω, σίνομαι for ξίνομαι?]
http://www.sanskrita.org/wiki/index.php?title=kSan
In Sumerian there is a sigšab "combed out hair, carded wool" - sig means "to pluck hair or wool; (to be) trimmed, pruned"; probably this sig is a SK version, while kṣan- is a KS one; in this case sigšab looks like a SKS-p one (!). Reminds also siki "hair", again one can think about suhur "to trim or comb the hair", also (suhur reminds also suh "to tear out; to extract; to choose" Akk. nasāhu).
I think ξαίνω xaino is very clearly connected to kṣan- (as perhaps an Indic-like root in Greek):
क्षन् kṣan [ kSan
Yes good comparison :) .
In Sumerian there is a sigšab "combed out hair, carded wool" - sig means "to pluck hair or wool; (to be) trimmed, pruned"; probably this sig is a SK version, while kṣan- is a KS one; in this case sigšab looks like a SKS-p one (!). Reminds also siki "hair", again one can think about suhur "to trim or comb the hair", also (suhur reminds also suh "to tear out; to extract; to choose" Akk. nasāhu).
Yes! :) .
There is also a Sum. word kušu [CREATURE] (12x: ED IIIa, Old Babylonian) wr. kušu2; kušu2[ku6] "crab or a snapping turtle" Akk. kušû.
The same is used also for the signe of Cancer (of the zodiac) = crab
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/babylonian_cancer.pdf
Also, the sign of nagar is used to depict the crab: "In later texts the name of the Crab can also be written with the Nagar-sign (left). This sign signifies a carpenter or craftsman, which suggests that it has been selected to illustrate the analogy between the crab’s claws and a carpenters saw." (sse above, page 4)
"cancer" is also from *(s)ker:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cancer#Latin
:D
Also, the sign of nagar is used to depict the crab: "In later texts the name of the Crab can also be written with the Nagar-sign (left). This sign signifies a carpenter or craftsman, which suggests that it has been selected to illustrate the analogy between the crab’s claws and a carpenters saw." (sse above, page 4)
"cancer" is also from *(s)ker:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cancer#Latin
:D
!:D It is wonderful .
This must be the KT version: kuda [ANIMAL] (5x: ED IIIa, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium) wr. kud-da "an animal" Akk. kušû "crab". :D
Of course! :D
kušu [ANIMALS] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. kušu "animals, livestock" Akk. būlu
could be corresponded, as a KS word, to a KT like Gr. κτῆνος ktenos (in plural) flocks and herds, which in ancient times constituted wealth, Hhymn., Hdt. 2.in sg. a single beast, as an ox or sheepfrom κτάομαι ktaomai "get, acquire"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dkth%3Dnos
Yes :) .
From the signlist one can see that, for some reason, kušu2 is written exactly the same way with uḫ3, one of the signs of ah [SPITTLE] (12x: Old Babylonian) wr. ah6; uh3; aah "a paste; phlegm, mucus, sputum; foam, scum; saliva, spittle; poison" Akk. hahhu; hurhummatu; illātu; imtu; ru'tu; rupuštu; uhhu.
http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/edition2/signlist.php
Do you think this word kSib could be connected somehow?
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=kSIb&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
Possible! :) .
There is also allub [CRAB] (3x: Old Babylonian) wr. al-lub; a-lu "crab" Akk. alluttu.
Allutu itself also is supposed to be of Sumerian origine:
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=6657&language=id
From the signlist this sign is the LU sign, same for these signs > ka5, lib, lu5, lub, lul, nar, paḫ, šatam
And since "ka" means "fox"; also since the ka sign is the same with "lib" which, according to Whittaker, could imply a connection with the root of vulpes and Gr. alopex "fox"; I was wondering then if the crab was something like "the fox of the sea" for the Sumerians :D
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CE%BB%CF%8E%CF%80%CE%B7%CE%BE
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vulpes#Latin
I was wondering then if the crab was something like "the fox of the sea" for the Sumerians :D
! :D .
Why, if we use the lib/nig equation, we are not very far from nagar again :D
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