In Gr. διδάσκω (didáskō) "I teach, instruct, train" the dás (di-dás-skō) reminds of "kas" (d/g-k, maybe due to a labiovelar like gw/kw) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%CE%B9%CE%B4%CE%AC%CF%83%CE%BA%CF%89 like δαήμων "knowing" etc http://etymology_el_en.enacademic.com/1758/%CE%B4%CE%B1%E1%BF%86%CE%BD%CE%B1%CE%B9 which resembles δαίμων (we have talked about that before), from a root about dividing: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%CE%B1%CE%AF%CE%BC%CF%89%CE%BD https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%CE%B1%CE%AF%CE%BF%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%B9#Ancient_Greek
amd generally, "to judge, to deciide" is connected with "dividing" etc, like in Gr. κρίνω "to judge" (as perhaps *nem is about distributing and law): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%AF%CE%BD%CF%89#Ancient_Greek (a kind of rin- with an initial "k" :D)
In Gr. διδάσκω (didáskō) "I teach, instruct, train" the dás (di-dás-skō) reminds of "kas" (d/g-k, maybe due to a labiovelar like gw/kw) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%CE%B9%CE%B4%CE%AC%CF%83%CE%BA%CF%89 like δαήμων "knowing" etc
Yes, very interesting :) .
which resembles δαίμων (we have talked about that before), from a root about dividing:
Hi Nirjhar, Something about the assumption of *gʷʰedʰ- (for "ask, pray" etc) been connected to bʰendʰ- "bind") from *gʷʰe(n)dʰ; it could feet also with kad [TIE] (20x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. kad5; kad4; kad6; kad8 "to tie, gather; to itch, scratch; to weave a mat?" Akk. harādu; harāsu; kaşāru, I think.
Also about a similar type with a "cut" notion (concerning also "decide") there is of course kud [CUT] (1111x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Ebla, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium, unknown) wr. kud; gur5 "to break off, deduct; to separate, cut off; to cut; to incise; to decide; to make clear" Akk. harāşu; napādu; parāsu; harāşu; parāsu; harāşu, like in di kud "judge", nam kud "curse" etc.
The "kud" about "separate, cut off" could be also a kind of KT type (of the "thorn clusters" scheme), corresponding to the TK one of taka [ABANDON] (667x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. tak4 "to set aside, leave behind; to save, keep back, hold back" Akk. ezēbu; uhhuru; šêtu; in Halloran taka4, tak4, tag4, ta6: to abandon; to disregard, neglect; to divorce; to leave with a person, entrust; to open, leave open. The PT one could be this one: bad [OPEN] (147x: ED IIIa, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. bad; ba; be2 "(to be) remote; to open, undo; to thresh grain with a threshing sledge" Akk. be'ēšû; nesû; petû.
The PT one could be this one: bad [OPEN] (147x: ED IIIa, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. bad; ba; be2 "(to be) remote; to open, undo; to thresh grain with a threshing sledge" Akk. be'ēšû; nesû; petû.
One could assume also, Nirjhar, that this k'es/k'as root > Skrt s'as, supposingly also connected with *dens (from a previous labiovelar), could be then also connected with *kens (of kosmos etc, like "order", "decorate"); also with the root of tamsati (for drawing, decorate); which in turn resembles the tem/tam of Greek temno "cut", which I supposed it was from a *kwem; there is anyway a resemblance of "k'es" with kes for "cutting".
There is a Cretan word in Hesychius ἴττον: ἕν, itton = hen [one]; also an ἴττιον: οὐσία, ittion = ousia [substance]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*i%3Aentry+group%3D36%3Aentry%3Di%29%2Ftta but οὐσία ousía [or οὐσίη (ousíē) – Ionic or ἐσσία (essía), ὠσία (ōsía) – Doric] "substance" etc is from the word "to be": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BF%E1%BD%90%CF%83%CE%AF%CE%B1#Ancient_Greek
Maybe it is a coincidence; if true, it could imply perhaps a connection of "to be" and "to bind", like in kešed [BIND](/kešedr/, wr. keš2 (kešda) as a KST type.
There could be a also connection of "to be" with *sem/*sam (for one, together, bind etc) https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1686 perhaps through *h₁ésmi ("I am"); like from Hsm- / sem.
This word kad (about "weaving a mat?" reminded me now Gr. κτείς (kteís) "comb (for hair, or in weaving) etc" From Proto-Indo-European *pḱtén-s, from Proto-Indo-European *peḱ- (“pluck”).
Numeral "one", diš [ONE] (5x: Old Akkadian, Ur III) wr. diš; de-eš-šu2; di-id (ES); di-t- (ES) "one", Akk. ištēn is described as dili, 'single', + aš, 'one' by Halloran; maybe is connected also to ešda "one".
It would be interesting if we had a "plosive loss" also here, like diš-d / ešda (aš).
About dili [SINGLE] (227x: ED IIIa, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. dili; di-il5 "(to be) single, unique, sole; (to be) alone" Akk. dēlu; ēdu I was thinking about another gloss of Hesychius: ἕλις: μόνος καὶ ὅλος [helis: monos. kai holos [sole/single. and whole] Of course I don't know if this helis is connected with "dili" (even with the loss of "d"). Maybi it is from some *sel-. Akkadian dēlu is a loanword from Sumerian; Akkadian ēdu (wēdu) is from Proto-Semitic *ʔ/waḥad- 1, *wḥd 2, according to ToB.
Maybi it is from some *sel-. Akkadian dēlu is a loanword from Sumerian; Akkadian ēdu (wēdu) is from Proto-Semitic *ʔ/waḥad- 1, *wḥd 2, according to ToB.
Here is helis: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*e%3Aentry+group%3D78%3Aentry%3De%28%2Flis It's with a short "e" though; while Akkadian "dēlu" (<dili) has a long one (ē). Another similar word could be τᾶλις talis "marriageable maiden": http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dta%3Dlis if the meaning was about "single (unmarried yet) woman.
Suddenly I remembered aramaic talitha "maiden, young woman" (like in "talitha kumi!) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Talitha https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/20841/what-does-talitha-cumi-mean
Also, this conversation about '''Hebrew ṭāle, Arabic ṭalā “young animal” and specifically “lamb”''' reminded me also Sum. sila [LAMB] (12368x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium) wr. sila4 "lamb" Akk. puhādu
To have also a "d", I remembered also Albanian dele for "sheep": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dele this seems to be from *dheh₁(i)- (“suckle”), like Old English delu "nipple": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/delu#Old_English maybe sila is the suckling :D maybe also sal "woman" could be connected.
In Halloran's Lexicon there is a sil = "praise" (not in ePSD, I think) and there is an Akkadian dalālu "to praise": Proto-Semitic : *dalāl Arabic : dallala دَلَّلَ "to pamper" Hebrew : dall דַּלּ "to rise" http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=277&language=id maybe a kind of d/s again (dalālu / sil).
In Greek "thḗl-" is for "feminine" (the-l, corresponds to fe-m): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B8%E1%BF%86%CE%BB%CF%85%CF%82 a "sal" (from dal/dhal) could be perhaps like θεός = σιός / theos = sios (god) in Doric Greek.
Apparently, one word šal-a (or sal-a) means "daughter" in Hurrian; the IE root of "daughter" has also to do with "suckling" and "milking", as it seems: "The original meaning is probably "the (potential) suckler, the one that draws milk"; compare Sanskrit दुहे (duhé) / दुग्धे (dugdhe), and the *-tḗr suffix common to other r-stem kinship terms." https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/d%CA%B0ugh%E2%82%82t%E1%B8%97r
It would be interesting to assume a **gwh- > *dh- also here (like dheH-/dhaH- < **gwheH/gwhaH- ); especially if the root for "milk" (like Gr. γάλα gala) could be connected: Either inherited from Proto-Indo-European *glakt-, *galakt- (note Hittite [script needed] (galaktar, “soothing substance, nutrient”), from [script needed] (galak-, “to soothe”)) or a loaned Wanderwort from an unknown Mediterranean source, possibly Pre-Greek. Related to Latin lac, Old Armenian կաթն (katʿn) and possibly Albanian gjoks. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%B1
From the same root *dʰeh₁- we have in Greek also θήνιον thenion = γάλα gala (milk) according to Hesychius; In Sumerian we have of course also ga "milk; suckling" (Akk. šizbu).
On the other hand, the *galag-/*glak- root could be possibly related to h₂melǵ- (for "milk" etc) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82mel%C7%B5- if we assume an ancient nasal labiovelar (like ĝalg/Hmalg, as the ĝ/m in Emesal); it's a kind of KrK / MrK root.
It's the same pattern, I think, with Sum. ĝalga [FORETHOUGHT] (37x: Old Babylonian) wr. ĝalga; ma-al-ga "(fore)thought, plan(ning); understanding; instruction, advice" Akk. milku; ţēmu (ĝalga/ malga). It is like Sum. kaš about "advice", compared already to *k'[ē]s- "to show, to lead" (like śā́ste, śāsti `to correct, censure, control, teach' etc).
Maybe "milking" was something that should have been carefully thought, planned or forethought or / and carefully controlled, instructed or conducted :D
Maybe "milking" was something that should have been carefully thought, planned or forethought or / and carefully controlled, instructed or conducted :D
Also, kaš [DECISION] (72x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ka-aš; ga-eš8 "decision" is identical with kaš [BEER] (13889x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. kaš; kaš2 "beer; alcoholic drink" Akk. šikaru and Lat. caseus "cheese" is from the compared IE root for "to become fervent, to become sour" *kwat": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/caseus I know it seems very random, but maybe dairy (or bier) production was initially connected with a planning/advicing/instructing notion; and the other meanings (like sour, ferment, milking etc) were secondary to that one.
I know it seems very random, but maybe dairy (or bier) production was initially connected with a planning/advicing/instructing notion; and the other meanings (like sour, ferment, milking etc) were secondary to that one.
:D Meanwhile in the Akkadian equivalent of ĝalga (Emesal malga) "(fore)thought, plan(ning); understanding; instruction, advice", that is milku "advice, counsel" and ţēmu "(fore)thought, plan(ning)", this ţēmu looks close to Gr. τέμνω temno, meaning "to milk" (we have discussed already about this word) from kʷem- "to swallow, sip"; its place seems dubious there because ἔτεμεν means ἤμελγεν eemelgen (he milked) in Hesychius und τέμνοντα temnonta [τέμοντα temonta]= ἀμέλγοντα amelgonta (milking - akk.) also in Hes.; Pokorny seems to think that the meaning ἀμέλγειν amelgein is a kind secondary meaning of "sip"; yet I think that generally all these notions could be secondary.
Another random thought about the semantics of these roots: there is also a Sum. tam [CLEAN] (16x: Old Akkadian, Old Babylonian) wr. tam; tan2 "(to be) bright; (to be) pure; to purify; (to be) clean" Akk. ebbu; elēlu; zakû and marjati (from Hmelg) seems to be about cleaning also: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82mel%C7%B5-
Also τέμνω temno means also "cut" (you remember the discussion about "temen") and there is also the similarity of kaš "advice" with IE *kes about cutting.
Reminds also the "ken/gan" roots about "rubbing, cutting, shining" etc we have discussed; maybe from gwa-n/kwa-n etc (generally I thing a g/k, or d/t isogloss is needed for these comparisons; like in the glottalic theory).
Also, if you remember, Dziebel has connected already this PIE *gweH-l– (about the-l etc) with a meaning ‘to mother’; so I guess we could use the Emesal ma for ĝa also for "mother"(connected to a notion of nursing or caring). http://kinshipstudies.org/blog/2014/07/23/indo-european-labiovelars-a-new-look/ https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mother
An INTERESTING article about the words for milking also here: https://hal.inria.fr/hal-01667476/file/GarnierSagartSagot_milk.pdf Though I think that many solutions about all these lay in Pre-IE formations; like the above mentioned ABOUT Emesal. BTW this Armenian katʿn "milk" (from the same root with γάλα gala) looks like this *kwat- root about "sour, frement".
I wrote with capital letters because of haste :) About the various word for milking, look also here: https://books.google.gr/books?id=M2aqp2n2mKkC&pg=PA485&lpg=PA485&dq=hittite+word+for+milk+galank&source=bl&ots=PPocHWyk2K&sig=GTPFhWV7e0_jQSFXG0EPBs7_59I&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjpyovemJHZAhUD6xQKHRZuCH8Q6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=hittite%20word%20for%20milk%20galank&f=false
I am thinking now that perhaps there is also a parallel concerning *med "to measure, to give advise" (also *meh) and *mehd "to become wet etc" (in IA it has to do with drunkness, intoxication): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/med- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/meh%E2%82%81- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/meh%E2%82%82d- (not sure about that)
There is also a Sum. mah [COW] (1000x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. mah2 "(to be) mature, milk producing (of cows)", fitting a (nasalized) *gwaH, I think.
There is also the case of Hittite "gala(n)k" about "satiate" or "soothe". Maybe the "glag-", "galak-" was used for sweet milk etc (resembles to "glyk-")
This "gala(n)k" looks also like "dalankha" :D but I was thinking today about the meaning of "soothe"; galank- reminded me Gr. γαλήνη galene "calm", "stilness" etc: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%AE%CE%BD%CE%B7 Also γαλανός galanos in Greek means "blue" or "light blue" (the blue of the sky; probably from γαλήνη, but some think it is from γάλα gala (milk). Galanos was also the name of our indologist (Dimitrios Galanos). On the other hand, the proposed etymology of "calm" (from cauma "heat") is dubious, I think: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/calm but for calm < ĝalga, we need rather a "galĝa/galma" (instead of ĝalga/malga) :D maybe the initial root was a reduplicated ĝal?
:D Here says that maha means not only "great, mighty, strong, abundant" but also bufallo etc: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%B9#Sanskrit Maybe the notion of "big, abundant" was derived of bulls and cows.
I was wondering also today if this root h₂el- for "grow, nourish" is connected to a ga-l or something like; and we have a kind of "plosive loss" situation also here (g>h): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82el-
It reminded me the word "allanu" for this tree, that I thought comparable to Gr."balanos" Latin serenus for "tranqil, calm, clear" etc, reminds Gr. galenos somehow; it could be derived also from a g'wh/ k'wh / > s (like in "sal"); it reminds also "saras" for lake etc, ewhich was compared to dalankha (as tlk/sls-srs); maybe it's of an Indic like root (this etymology of "*ksero" confirms this, I think) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/serenus
it could be derived also from a g'wh/ k'wh / > s (like in "sal"); it reminds also "saras" for lake etc, ewhich was compared to dalankha (as tlk/sls-srs); maybe it's of an Indic like root (this etymology of "*ksero" confirms this, I think)
Hi Nirjhar, About h₂el- for "grow, nourish" (like in Latin alo, alimentum etc or Gr. ἀλθω (althō), ἀλθαίνω (althainō) etc), one could notice that mah "(to be" great is written in two ways, as mah or mah2; on the other hand, mah "(to be) mature, milk producing (of cows)" is written only as mah2, which in turn is identical with the the "al" logogramm; which means "hoe" in Sumerian, yet it reminds the al- for "grow, nourish".
The "alth-" in Greek words reminds also Amaltheia Ἀμάλθεια (Amalthea), which suckled Zeus (as a baby) in mythology: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*a%3Aentry+group%3D98%3Aentry%3D*%29ama%2Flqeia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalthea_(mythology) (From this also ἀμαλθεύω amaltheuō = τρέφω trephō "to feed" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Da)malqeu%2Fw
Again something from Gr. mythology: ĝalga as a word reminded me also Kalkhas (Calchas), a seer in Homer's Iliad, who interprets the will of gods, giving many advices to the Greeks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calchas btw, according to J. Halloran it's ĝalga, malga: advice, counsel; wise one; reflection, consideration; judgement (loan from Akkadian milkum; cf., Orel & Stolbova #1791 *mulak-/*mulik- 'stranger, chief') [GALGA archaic frequency: 16; concatenation of 2 sign variants].
Sum. al about "hoe" and "hoeing" reminded me Gr. ἀλωή alōe, Dor. ἀλωά alōa, in Attic halōs "threshing-floor; more commonly, any prepared ground, garden, orchard, vineyard, etc" (meaning a place leveled or worked by hoeing etc) http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Da)lwh%2F https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%85%CE%BB%CF%89%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
Well, I don't know though if it's IE or not :/ about the al/mah2 logogramm again, I've noticed that it exists also in Sum. immal [COW] (16x: Old Babylonian) wr. immal2; im-ma-al; immal; immalx(|NUN.LAGAR|) "wild cow; cow" Akk. arhu; littu.
As it seems immal means also property: immal [PROPERTY] wr. immal3 "(to be) very plentiful; goods, property, possessions, livestock" Akk. būšu; makkûru; maršītu; ţuhhudu cow means wealth, obviously :)
There is a Gr. word ἱμαλίς imalis "abundant", an epithet of Demeter; it seems to have to do with wheat and milling, though: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Di(mali%2Fs I wonder if it is from bulls, cows etc used for milling; "threshing floor" must be connected also with mill.
Perhaps there could be a connection to this root for sheep and goats, livestock etc: Proto-IE: *mēl- Nostratic etymology: Nostratic etymology Meaning: sheep, goats Armenian: mal `Schaf, Widder' Old Greek: mē̂lo-n n. `Kleinvieh, Schafe und Ziegen' Germanic: *mḗl-ō f. Celtic: OIr mīl `(kleines) Tier'; Cymr mil `Tier', OCorn mil `Tier', Bret mil `Tier'
There is also Proto-Omotic: *māl- meaning: 'cow'. About Skrt. marjati again, there is a comparable Gr. ἀμέργω amergo "to pluck or pull, Lat. decerpo" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Da)me%2Frgw and another one, ὀμόργνυμι omorgnymi "to wipe": http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Do)mo%2Frgnumi most probably from the same root Hmelg'/Hmerg'
btw, in ToB I've seen a *mar / *mor root about "cattle / horse" ("an ungulate"); you may find it interesting; in IE it;s the *mark(')- "horse" : http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2feura%2fglobet&text_number=+417&root=config
Gr. amergo and omorgnymi are already known as cognates of marjati (at Mayrhofer also) :) about the root for "ungulate" etc, I suppose it was given also for horses (in Drav. is about cows); then they used asva / hippos / equus etc because of the of horses. About roots like "mal", we have also IE *mel (or mal, as Giacomo would say) for "strong, big" like in Lat. melior, or Gr. mala etc https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/melior which reminds "gal"; there is also *mel for soft and *mel for "grind"; with a d extension gives "mild" - not sure which mel of two is the stem, though). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mild So, cows, herds etc are characterized with notions of greatness, strength, pulverizing / grinding, wiping / rubbing, but also with nutrition/ milking, tenderness, softness and soothing / mildness, I guess.
So, cows, herds etc are characterized with notions of greatness, strength, pulverizing / grinding, wiping / rubbing, but also with nutrition/ milking, tenderness, softness and soothing / mildness, I guess.
The etymology of Latin mollis: "From earlier *molduis, from Proto-Indo-European *(h₂)moldus (“soft, weak”), from Proto-Indo-European *mel- (“soft, weak, tender”). Cognates include Latin mola, blandus, mortārium, Old Prussian maldai (“boys”), Old Church Slavonic младъ (mladŭ, “young”), Sanskrit मृदु (mṛdú, “soft, mild, weak”), Old Armenian մեղկ (mełk, “soft, weak”), Ancient Greek βλαδύς (bladús, “weak”) and ἀμαλδύνω (amaldúnō, “to weaken, destroy”). More at mild." https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mollis#Latin From this also mulier "woman, female" etc: "From mollior, comparative of mollis (“soft, tender”)." https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mulier So, if *mel/*mal/*mol is connected with cows etc, so is mulier also (like Sum. sal, Gr. thel-us etc) :P
About grain, grind etc and the connection with cows, I was wondering about Gr. alphiton "(a kind of) barley" etc http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Da)%2Flfiton if connected to the AA "alp(h)-" for "ox"; they say alphiton is connected to the alp- of albus "white" (like alphos, "a type of skin disease"). http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Da)%2Flfiton (of course in case of alpu for ox, we have a comparison with elephas, lib/nig etc; we discussed about that in Giacomo's posts :D )
"nig" made me now remember the Turkish word for cow, inek :D: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2falt%2fturcet&text_number=1498&root=config http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2falt%2faltet&text_number=+602&root=config
Well "cow, ox" in Greek is mostly βοῦς (boûs) m, f , as you know: From Proto-Hellenic *gʷous, from Proto-Indo-European *gʷṓws. Cognates include Old English cū (English cow), Latin bōs, and Sanskrit गो (gó). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B2%CE%BF%E1%BF%A6%CF%82 There is also δάμαλις (dámalis, “heifer”), δαμάλη (damálē), for cow (see the hyponyms above); this damal- looks like the "immal" with a "d"; they say it's from δαμάζω damazo "to tame", but I doubt it; it is said also to δάμαρ damar "spouse, wife" if you remember (Dziebel has argued that damar is from *gʷḗn); since "cow" and "woman/female" seem to be connected, I think we should try this idea...
About the notions of "big, great" there is also a Sumerian daĝal [WIDE] (745x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. daĝal; dam-gal; di-am-ga-al; da-ma-al "(to be) wide; width, breadth" Akk. rupšu (damal is Emesal). Not for cows seemingly; yet the sign daĝal is the same with the one of ama [MOTHER] (863x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. ama "mother" Akk. ummu.
ab [COW] (5272x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium, unknown) wr. ab2 "cow" Akk. arhu; littu, could be also from a b < ĝ (like from a [n?]aĝ (not at all sure about that); it reminds the Egyptian god Apis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_(deity) It looks also close to the abba etc for "father"; maybe "mother" and "father" correspond to cow and ox :P (I'm almost sure that the pa- of "pater" is from some kwa/gwa).
It looks also close to the abba etc for "father"; maybe "mother" and "father" correspond to cow and ox :P (I'm almost sure that the pa- of "pater" is from some kwa/gwa).
Maybe the "dr" in Sum. gu-d(r) are the same with the "-tr" in *pHtr for "father" :D About maš [GOAT] (10699x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium) wr. maš2; maš "goat; extispicy; sacrificial animal for omens" Akk. bīru; urīşu; I was thinking about a comparison with *moiso-s oder *maiso-s "sheep; hide, leatherwork" and Indic mēšá- m. 'ram, sheep', mēṣī- `sheep skin', av. maēša- `ram, sheep'. The meaning of "skin" exists also in Akkadian mašku: http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=3223&language=id
Do you remember also Gr. πόρτις portis (there is also a form πόρις poris) for "young cow, heifer"? http://vasco-caucasian.blogspot.gr/2014/07/greek-parthenos-virgin-unmarried-girl.html http://etymology_el_en.enacademic.com/5806/%CF%80%E1%BD%B9%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%82 In Hebrew there is a word par "young bull, steer, ox" etc, also parah = "heifer, cow": http://biblehub.com/hebrew/6499.htm http://biblehub.com/hebrew/6510.htm
Maybe there is a p < kw- here alo, as it is b < gw in case of Gr. bous for cow/ox. And the "dr" of gudr may have given also the "rt" in this case. When "dr" started to be pronounced as "ts" or ""s may have given bous, gos, bos etc.
"brother" could correspond also to some **gwh > bh (as daughter is **gwh> dh) for some reason; a kind of **KrKr (where the second K is a T): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/b%CA%B0r%C3%A9h%E2%82%82t%C4%93r
Starostin thinks of a possibility of a same root with *bher "bearing a child": http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=+330&root=config
BTW, in Sumerian there is šeš [BROTHER] (1579x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian, unknown) wr. šeš "brother; junior worker, assistant" Akk. ahu, which reminds Hurrian šēn- = "brother" There is a Gr. word I can think of, κάσις kasis "brother" or "sister": http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dka%2Fsis which could be from a **k'es/**k'as, perhaps connected to tek' (as KS from TK, maybe); I think this etymology has been proposed by an old scholar (I must check for his name); others have different views (like derived from κατά kata or και kai "and"). There is also a word κασίγνητος kasignetos "brother", assumed as from κάσις kasis and γίγνομαι gignomai ("to come into beeing").
which could be from a **k'es/**k'as, perhaps connected to tek' (as KS from TK, maybe); I think this etymology has been proposed by an old scholar (I must check for his name); others have different views (like derived from κατά kata or και kai "and"). There is also a word κασίγνητος kasignetos "brother", assumed as from κάσις kasis and γίγνομαι gignomai ("to come into beeing").
There is a šeš "to anoint" and a šeš "a bird"; and there is also peš "to anoint" and peš "a bird"; I mean, maybe from some kind of k'w- > > p-, š- all of these? There is also peš for "thick, pregnant etc".
The supposed **gwher for "bher" looks like the *gʷʰer- of gharma, thermos etc (for the heat); we have compared Sum. "barag" (or Akkadian parakku) to *bher (maybe as *bher-eg / < **gwher-eg?) in Giacomo's posts; we have also piriĝ "lion; bull, wild bull", compared to IE *ǵʰwer-, "wild, wild animal"; which looks almost identical to pirig "bright"; and IE "bright" is from *bʰereg-; but what if *bʰereg-is derived also from *gʷʰer- (or rather *gʷʰer-eg)?. If fertility is connected with bulls, cows etc maybe the "brightness / warm etc" is connected to their colour? (yellow, red etc)?
It seems that the initial (labialized) g's were once much more numerous; and they were replaced afterwards in many cases by labials like "bh"; maybe this was a wave of "emesal-isation" :D
Maybe Hurrian šen- is from some "k'en" or "g'en" :P I am wondering though why in IE there is a *g'en yet not a k'en (but *ken) about bearing a child etc.
Maybe Hurrian šen- is from some "k'en" or "g'en" :P I am wondering though why in IE there is a *g'en yet not a k'en (but *ken) about bearing a child etc.
About the comparison of Sum. šeš with the kasi of κασίγνητος kasignetos "brother" again; the supposed derivation of kasi- from καί kai "and" etc (which has also a type κάς kás (Arcadocypriot) is included at the etymology of καί kai: From earlier *kahi ← *kasi (still seen in κασίγνητος (kasígnētos)) ← *kati, from Proto-Indo-European *ḱm̥t-, from *ḱóm (“with”). Compare Hittite [script needed] (kat-ti, “along with”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%AF https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/%E1%B8%B1%C3%B3m This was proposed by Kuiper. Reminds a bit the case of ξύν xyn we have talked before. In Greek there is a word συγγενής syngenes (from syn + gen-) meaning "relative" The etymology from tek' was proposed by Wackernagel; Chantraine rejects it, though. Sum. šeš means not only "brother" but also "junior worker, assistant"; there is also a Myc. word kasikono (kasikonos) collaborator, assistant (the -konos part is the same with διάκονος diakonos, from kon- for service etc). On the other hand, if šeš is to compared to this stuff, it should be from som k'ek'...
The etymology from tek' was proposed by Wackernagel; Chantraine rejects it, though. Sum. šeš means not only "brother" but also "junior worker, assistant"; there is also a Myc. word kasikono (kasikonos) collaborator, assistant (the -konos part is the same with διάκονος diakonos, from kon- for service etc). On the other hand, if šeš is to compared to this stuff, it should be from som k'ek'...
Hi Nirjhar, I guess there are some more assumptions we can do about the Sumerian/Akkadian/IE relations etc. About Sum. šeš, if we assume some repuplicated **k'w/k'w we could think about a comparison with the assumed root of "father" (like kw/kw we were talked before); because the notion of "father" and "brother" (especially the older one) seem to be connected. I remember for example a word abi for the "older brother" in Turkish (like the ab- for father), and we have also Sum. pap [RELATION] (86x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. pap "first and foremost, pre-eminent; father; male, virile; brother" Akk. abu "father"; ahu "brother"; ašarēdu "first and foremost, pre-eminent"; zikaru "male, virile" (btw Akk. abu "father" and ahu "brother" seem also quite close). So, I wouldn't exclude a relation with a TK root like the one of teknon "child" etc (since we have assumed a TK < KK).
I guess there are some more assumptions we can do about the Sumerian/Akkadian/IE relations etc. About Sum. šeš, if we assume some repuplicated **k'w/k'w we could think about a comparison with the assumed root of "father" (like kw/kw we were talked before); because the notion of "father" and "brother" (especially the older one) seem to be connected.
I totally agree :) .
So, I wouldn't exclude a relation with a TK root like the one of teknon "child" etc (since we have assumed a TK < KK).
Also, the etymology about Gr. kasis "brother" is from a "kat-", meaning a KT, which seems like an inversed TK; and Gr. καί kai "and" (whith a notion of addition, like "more and more" etc) reminds of fertility (with a hint of children, many kids, like brothers and sisters etc); so we could asume also a connection of the roots also in this case. Besides, the assumed kat-i > kas-i > kah-i > kai in the case of kai, especially the "kahi" makes me think of Akk. ahu for brother with a kind of lenition of k>h, maybe...
This archaic root is like the Italic kʷenkʷe "five" (like *kʷe(n)kʷe) as we have seen: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Italic/k%CA%B7enk%CA%B7e k'omt could be related, too (like a KNT < KNK root).
About the other šeš [WEEP] (122x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. šeš4; še8-še8; še8; šeš2; šešx(|A.IGI|); šeš3; šex(|IGI×A|) "to weep" Akk. bakû we could assume a parallel comparison with some K'K' again, as we have seen before (like the **HK of "acqua" or the TK of **dhegh of Kloekhorst about "liquid", like in ikthus for "fish", like inversed > KT, etc, or a PS like biz "tear" etc).
as we have seen before (like the **HK of "acqua" or the TK of **dhegh of Kloekhorst about "liquid", like in ikthus for "fish", like inversed > KT, etc, or a PS like biz "tear" etc).
BTW, it is something I wanted to tell about IE "pénkʷe" for "five" (which I was thinking it is comparable with Sum. peš for "three" etc, due to the different numerical system 6/10 > 3/5); this reminds of Sum. banšur [TABLE] (256x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. banšur; [ĝeš]banšur; banšur2; [ĝeš]banšur2; banšur3; [ĝeš]banšur3; banšurx(|URU×IGI|) "table" Akk. paššūru I mean, in Greek the word for table τράπεζα trapeza is said to have come from a notion of three legs (tri- + ped-): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CF%81%CE%AC%CF%80%CE%B5%CE%B6%CE%B1 But the -ur of banšur looks like the -ur of *kʷtur- "four".
:D Sum. banšur and Akk. paššūru reminded me also of some Aeolic types of "four", like πῐ́σῠρες (písures) – Epic, Aeolic and πέσῠρες (pésures), πέσσῠρες (péssures): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CE%AD%CF%83%CF%83%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B5%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
As it seems, similar and also connected roots (like KK, TK, KS, SS etc) were used for "home", "parents", "children" and "cattle", "horses" altogether :D
Also, apart from the -ur, banšur looks like Proto-Indo-Iranian/pánča: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-Iranian/p%C3%A1n%C4%8Da but with a meaning of "three" instead of "five", I think. Maybe the *kwat- of catur is the same with *kat- / *kas-, dicussed above for "brother" etc, like *kat < **kwat (maybe as an additional leg) :D
A "kw" exists also in *kwat "fermented drink" compared with Sum. kaš "beer" etc https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/kvas%D1%8A Maybe from some similar rectangular objects (like containers) used from frementation etc?
The root of Akkadian ahu "brother" must have also a sort of labiovelar according to ToB: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=+++2&root=config
Maybe. There is also a Sum. šen "cauldron" Akk. ruqqu; šen means also other things (like "pure", "battle"), but šen- is "brother" in Hurrian. I think from a sort of k'en/ g'en.
The logogramm of banšur looks like the one of silig "bed", which seems natural (four legs etc) silig means also "to cease" and "ax", written with (almost) the same logogramm; silig for "hand" is written differently. Halloran says that banšur means also "container".
I remember also another Sum. word for "a container", that is tun, also bag, stomach (Akk. tākaltu = bag), apart from "lip, chin" (meaning something protruding); tun means also "ax", which in Akkadian is pāšu (!) "axe, adze".
Another word for "harness", also similar to ur, is sur [HARNESS] (4x: Old Babylonian) wr. sur5; surx(ERIN2) "to harness, tie up; to suspend, be suspended; harness team (of draft animals or workers); member of a team, team-worker" Akk. šuqallulu. I think we have talked about this word before; or maybe it was about Sum. erin...
There is also a Sum. ur [DRAG] (53x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ur3 "to go along; to wipe clean; to beat, sweep away; to drag; to raise a boat" Akk. bâ'u; kapāru; šabāţu. Not sure, but maybe there are some sur / ur parallels; in Greek I can think of a word σύρω (súrō, “draw, drag, trail along”); like in case of the Libyan Σύρτις Syrtis gulf(s): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%A3%CF%8D%CF%81%CF%84%CE%B9%CF%82
There is also a Sum. ur [DRAG] (53x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ur3 "to go along; to wipe clean; to beat, sweep away; to drag; to raise a boat" Akk. bâ'u; kapāru; šabāţu. Not sure, but maybe there are some sur / ur parallels; in Greek I can think of a word σύρω (súrō, “draw, drag, trail along”); like in case of the Libyan Σύρτις Syrtis gulf(s):
About Sum. gagig [CRY] wr. gagig "to cry (out), wail" Akk. nâqu we could compare perhaps Pokorny's Root / lemma: kā̆u-, kē̆u-, kū- "to howl". German meaning: ,heulen' Note: onomatopoeic words, partly with anlaut. k, partly with k̂. Material: Old Indian kā́uti `shouts, howls', Intens. kōkūyate `schreit, sounds, seufzt' (Gramm.), kṓka- m. `owl, dog'ö (`schreiend; heulend'); kokila- `cuckoo'; arm. k`uk` `στεναγμός' (: lit. kaũkti, Meillet Msl. 12, 214; die Nichtverwandlung of 2. k to s after u is in onomatopoeic words not objection); gr. κωκύ̄ω `cry, wehklage' (dissim. from *κῡ-κύ̄-ω), κώκῡμα `lamentation'; καύᾱξ, -ᾱκος, ion. -ηξ, hom. κήξ, -κός f., κῆυξ, -ῡκος `eine Möwenart'; with fractured reduplication (as Old Indian kṓka-, lit. kaũkti, šaũkti, slav. kukati etc.) καυκαλίας, καυκίαλος, καυκιάλης bird name (Hes.);
but mcymr. cuan, cymr. cwan, abret. couann, nbret. kaouan, dial. cavan, kohan, kouhen ds.(Ernault RC 36, 2063) are probably onomatopoetische neologisms; lat. (gall.) cavannus `Nachteule' (Anthol. lat.); ahd. hūwo `owl', hūwila, hiuwula `Nachteule', ahd. hiuwilōn `jubeln', mhd. hiuweln, hiulen `howl, cry', mnd. hūlen, mengl. hūlen, engl. howl; lit. (see above) kaukiù, kaũkti, lett. kàukt `howl, from Hunden or Wölfen', lit. sukùkti `ds., aufheulen', kaukalė `a kind of Wasservogel', lett. kaũka `whirlwind'; lit. kóvas m. `jackdaw', kóva f. `Saatkröhe' (*kāu̯ā = poln. kawa); russ. kávka `frog', dial. `jackdaw', kávatь `stark cough', klr. (etc.) kávka `jackdaw', kavčáty `screech, shriek, scream, squawk, cackle, croak, yell'; ablaut. (*kēu-) bulg. čávka, serb. čâvka, čech. čavka `jackdaw'; Old Church Slavic kuja-jǫ, -ti `murmur'; russ. kúkatь `murmur, mucksen', serb. kȕkati `lament' etc. maybe alb. kuja `lamentation' : Old Church Slavic kuja-jǫ, -ti `murmur'; çavka, çafka `heron' : čech. čavka `jackdaw' With -b-, -b(h)o-: Old Indian kúkkubha- m. `wild rooster, cock, pheasant', gr. κουκούφας `Vogelart' (late, kaumecht gr.); onomatopoeic words are: κίκυβος probably `Nachteule' (besides κικκάβη, κίκυμος (out of it lat.cicuma), κικυμίς ds., κικκαβαῦ `deren scream'), lat. cucubiō, -īre of scream the Nachteule (Thomas Stud. 39 nimmt Hiat föllendes b an); also die b(h)-`Suffixe' the vorgenannten could so aufgekommen sein. With -ĝ-: Old Indian kū́jati `growls, brummt, murmelt'; norw. hauke `johlen, call, shout, cry'. Maybe alb. kujit `growl' With -p-: got. hiufan `lament', anord. hjūfra ds., ags. hēofan ds., as. hiovan, ahd.hiofan, hioban ds. With -r-: Old Indian cákōra- m. `a kind of partridge, game bird'; lat. caurīre `cry, of brönstigen Panther'; Old Church Slavic kurъ `rooster, cock', Church Slavic kurica `hen'; With anlaut. palatal: Old Indian śúka- m. `parrot'; arm. sag `goose' (*k̂au̯ā) = Old Church Slavic sova `owl' (: kelt. cavannus); lit. šaukiù, šaũkti `cry, loud call, shout, cry, name'; russ. syčь `Zwergeule, Sperlingseule', čech. sýc `owl' (*k̂ūk-ti-); doubtful Old Church Slavic šumъ `noise' (*k̂ē̆u-mo-sö Brugmann II2 1, 247). Maybe alb. zhurma `noise' compare Suolahti Dt. bird name 185 (here about the neologism ahd. kaha `jackdaw' etc.; compare lit. kóvas etc. ds.). References: WP. I 331 f., WH. I 184, 190, 298, Trautmann 122. Page(s): 535-536
:D I think now some comparisons are left, here an there :) with an initial s- (like from a palatal k') there is suham [CRY] (3x: unknown) wr. suh-am3-bi; suh-am3 "cry"; there is of course also šeg [VOICE] (28x: Old Babylonian) wr. še; šeg10; šegx(|KA×KID2|); šegx(|KA×LI|); šed15; šeg12 "voice, cry, noise" Akk. rigmu
Some more assumptions Nirjhar: Armenian katʿn "milk" (from the same root with γάλα gala) reminds also a bit Sum. gid [DRAG] (13x: Ur III, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian) wr. gid2 "to drag, tow (a boat upstream); to pass along, transfer; to flay?; to milk" Akk. šadādu.
The other gid [LONG] (2252x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. gid2 "(to be) long; to tighten; to survey, measure out a field" Akk. arāku, concerning the meaning "long" reminded me of a Gr. work κῆτος kêtos, meaning a whale (of dubious etymology, maybe pre-Greek (whatever that means) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%E1%BF%86%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
I have to note though that the root of "milk" in Greek is gal-akt- (or glag-) and in Sumerian "gal" is also a word for "big, great" (similar notion to gid "long").
I have to note though that the root of "milk" in Greek is gal-akt- (or glag-) and in Sumerian "gal" is also a word for "big, great" (similar notion to gid "long").
Note also that the root for king in Semitic is m-l-k (like in Hebrew melek etc); in IE there is Hreg' (like in rex, raj- etc) with a notion of "stretch", "straigthen" etc: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%83re%C7%B5-
About Sum. gid etc, I can think of another Gr. word (from soime other layer) κίδναμαι kidnamai κίδναμαι kidnamai, Pass. of κίδνημι kidnemi (only found in the compd. ἐπικ-), poet. for σκεδάννυμαι skedannymai, used only in pres. and impf., A.to be spread abroad or over, of the dawning day. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dki%2Fdnamai
σκεδάννυμι skedannymi: Meaning: `to scatter, to spring, to drive apart', midd. `to disperse, to burst, to go apart, to spread' http://etymology_el_en.enacademic.com/6363/%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%B5%CE%B4%E1%BD%B1%CE%BD%CE%BD%CF%85%CE%BC%CE%B9 Etymology: The system σκεδάννυμι : σκίδνημι : σκεδάσαι was formed after wellknown examples like πετάννυμι, κεράννυμι a. o. (s. vv. and Schwyzer 697) from an unknown starting point (the aorist?). The other languages present nothing that could be compared directly with the Greek forms. Closest comes (after Jokl IF 30, 196) Alb. tshanj, tshaj `split, tear up, plough' from *sked-n̥-i̯ō. To this with nasal infix Av. sčandayeiti `break, destroy', to which may belong Skt. skhadate `split' (gramm.), if from IE *skh₂n̥d-; the last-mentioned forms can however also be explained from a d-enlarged nasal root *sk(h₂)en-d-. Without anlaut. s- the polyinterpretable Toch. AB kät- `strew (out)', pres. (B) katnau, katnaṃ with nā-suffix and unclear vowel (after v. Windekens Orbis 12, 464f. = Gr. κιδ-). To be mentioned still several verbal nouns, esp. with r-suffix, and verbs built to these: Arm. šert `chip, piece of wood', if from *sk(h₂)ed-ri- (anlaut uncertain), Lith. skedervà f. `splinter', Latv. skadrs `easy to split', Germ., e.g. MEngl. scateren, NEngl. scatter `scatter', MIr. scaindrim `split in two' etc., s. WP. 2, 558 f., 563f., Pok. 918f., 929f., W.-Hofmann s. scandula, Fraenkel s. kedė̃, Vasmer s. ščedryj w. further forms and rich lit. -- Cf. σχίζω. On κέδματα s. v.
About Sum. gid etc, I can think of another Gr. word (from soime other layer) κίδναμαι kidnamai κίδναμαι kidnamai, Pass. of κίδνημι kidnemi (only found in the compd. ἐπικ-), poet. for σκεδάννυμαι skedannymai, used only in pres. and impf., A.to be spread abroad or over, of the dawning day.
Again about gid "long" there is also Albanian gjatë "tall, long" "From dialectal and archaic glatë, from Proto-Albanian *dlata, from pre-Albanian *dl̥h₁gʰto, from Proto-Indo-European *dl̥h₁gʰós and suffix -*to." https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gjat%C3%AB
Sum. kid (/kidr/) [BREAK] (7x: ED IIIb, Old Babylonian) wr. kid2; gir8; kid4; kid7 "to break off, pinch off" Akk. karāşu could be compared, I think, to the already mentioned above: "To be mentioned still several verbal nouns, esp. with r-suffix, and verbs built to these: Arm. šert `chip, piece of wood', if from *sk(h₂)ed-ri- (anlaut uncertain), Lith. skedervà f. `splinter', Latv. skadrs `easy to split', Germ., e.g. MEngl. scateren, NEngl. scatter `scatter', MIr. scaindrim `split in two' etc., s. WP. 2, 558 f., 563f., Pok. 918f., 929f., W.-Hofmann s. scandula, Fraenkel s. kedė̃, Vasmer s. ščedryj w. further forms and rich lit. -- Cf. σχίζω. On κέδματα s. v.
Sum. kid(r), as a kind of KT word, could have a partnair in pad [BREAK] (56x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. pad "to break (into bits)" Akk. kasāpu, as a PT word; maybe the "TK" is (s)teig- , like Sum. ti for "arrow" or "tibir" for knife... J. Halloran has pad, paðx: n., bite, small repast (regularly followed by rá; cf., bur and búru) (sprout + repetitive processing) [? PAD archaic frequency: 38; concatenation of 2 sign variants]. v., to break off.
2,273 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 1801 – 2000 of 2273 Newer› Newest»Possible :) .
In Gr. διδάσκω (didáskō) "I teach, instruct, train" the dás (di-dás-skō) reminds of "kas" (d/g-k, maybe due to a labiovelar like gw/kw)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%CE%B9%CE%B4%CE%AC%CF%83%CE%BA%CF%89
like δαήμων "knowing" etc
http://etymology_el_en.enacademic.com/1758/%CE%B4%CE%B1%E1%BF%86%CE%BD%CE%B1%CE%B9
which resembles δαίμων (we have talked about that before), from a root about dividing:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%CE%B1%CE%AF%CE%BC%CF%89%CE%BD
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%CE%B1%CE%AF%CE%BF%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%B9#Ancient_Greek
amd generally, "to judge, to deciide" is connected with "dividing" etc, like in Gr. κρίνω "to judge" (as perhaps *nem is about distributing and law):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%AF%CE%BD%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
(a kind of rin- with an initial "k" :D)
In Gr. διδάσκω (didáskō) "I teach, instruct, train" the dás (di-dás-skō) reminds of "kas" (d/g-k, maybe due to a labiovelar like gw/kw)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%CE%B9%CE%B4%CE%AC%CF%83%CE%BA%CF%89
like δαήμων "knowing" etc
Yes, very interesting :) .
which resembles δαίμων (we have talked about that before), from a root about dividing:
I agree :) .
(a kind of rin- with an initial "k" :D)
Yes :) .
I remembered Daniel on this (when talking about "umun", daimon haimon etc; I think he was the first to propose a "plosive loss" there.)
I see :) .
Hi Nirjhar,
Something about the assumption of *gʷʰedʰ- (for "ask, pray" etc) been connected to bʰendʰ- "bind") from *gʷʰe(n)dʰ; it could feet also with kad [TIE] (20x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. kad5; kad4; kad6; kad8 "to tie, gather; to itch, scratch; to weave a mat?" Akk. harādu; harāsu; kaşāru, I think.
Very interesting :) .
Also about a similar type with a "cut" notion (concerning also "decide") there is of course kud [CUT] (1111x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Ebla, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium, unknown) wr. kud; gur5 "to break off, deduct; to separate, cut off; to cut; to incise; to decide; to make clear" Akk. harāşu; napādu; parāsu; harāşu; parāsu; harāşu, like in di kud "judge", nam kud "curse" etc.
True :) .
I've noticed also in Halloran's Lexicon a kas7, ka9: deduction; settlement of accounts; possession (back-formation from níĝ-kas7/ka9).
The "kud" about "separate, cut off" could be also a kind of KT type (of the "thorn clusters" scheme), corresponding to the TK one of taka [ABANDON] (667x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. tak4 "to set aside, leave behind; to save, keep back, hold back" Akk. ezēbu; uhhuru; šêtu; in Halloran taka4, tak4, tag4, ta6: to abandon; to disregard, neglect; to divorce; to leave with a person,
entrust; to open, leave open.
The PT one could be this one: bad [OPEN] (147x: ED IIIa, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. bad; ba; be2 "(to be) remote; to open, undo; to thresh grain with a threshing sledge" Akk. be'ēšû; nesû; petû.
The PT one could be this one: bad [OPEN] (147x: ED IIIa, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. bad; ba; be2 "(to be) remote; to open, undo; to thresh grain with a threshing sledge" Akk. be'ēšû; nesû; petû.
Very interesting :) .
One could assume also, Nirjhar, that this k'es/k'as root > Skrt s'as, supposingly also connected with *dens (from a previous labiovelar), could be then also connected with *kens (of kosmos etc, like "order", "decorate"); also with the root of tamsati (for drawing, decorate); which in turn resembles the tem/tam of Greek temno "cut", which I supposed it was from a *kwem; there is anyway a resemblance of "k'es" with kes for "cutting".
Sum. ešda [ONE] wr. eš3-da "one" Akk. ištēn, gives also the impression of a HST; it also looks like the IE root for "to be".
Yes, I agree .
There is a Cretan word in Hesychius ἴττον: ἕν, itton = hen [one]; also an ἴττιον: οὐσία, ittion = ousia [substance]:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*i%3Aentry+group%3D36%3Aentry%3Di%29%2Ftta
but οὐσία ousía [or οὐσίη (ousíē) – Ionic or ἐσσία (essía), ὠσία (ōsía) – Doric] "substance" etc is from the word "to be":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BF%E1%BD%90%CF%83%CE%AF%CE%B1#Ancient_Greek
Interesting :) .
Maybe it is a coincidence; if true, it could imply perhaps a connection of "to be" and "to bind", like in kešed [BIND](/kešedr/, wr. keš2 (kešda) as a KST type.
Very true :) .
There could be a also connection of "to be" with *sem/*sam (for one, together, bind etc)
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1686
perhaps through *h₁ésmi ("I am"); like from Hsm- / sem.
Yeah :) .
This word kad (about "weaving a mat?" reminded me now Gr. κτείς (kteís) "comb (for hair, or in weaving) etc" From Proto-Indo-European *pḱtén-s, from Proto-Indo-European *peḱ- (“pluck”).
Yes :) .
Numeral "one", diš [ONE] (5x: Old Akkadian, Ur III) wr. diš; de-eš-šu2; di-id (ES); di-t- (ES) "one", Akk. ištēn is described as dili, 'single', + aš, 'one' by Halloran; maybe is connected also to ešda "one".
Yes, possible :) .
It would be interesting if we had a "plosive loss" also here, like diš-d / ešda (aš).
About dili [SINGLE] (227x: ED IIIa, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. dili; di-il5 "(to be) single, unique, sole; (to be) alone" Akk. dēlu; ēdu
I was thinking about another gloss of Hesychius:
ἕλις: μόνος καὶ ὅλος [helis: monos. kai holos [sole/single. and whole]
Of course I don't know if this helis is connected with "dili" (even with the loss of "d"). Maybi it is from some *sel-.
Akkadian dēlu is a loanword from Sumerian; Akkadian ēdu (wēdu) is from Proto-Semitic *ʔ/waḥad- 1, *wḥd 2, according to ToB.
Maybi it is from some *sel-.
Akkadian dēlu is a loanword from Sumerian; Akkadian ēdu (wēdu) is from Proto-Semitic *ʔ/waḥad- 1, *wḥd 2, according to ToB.
Yeah :) .
Like the comparison of *sel / saras / helos with dalankha :D
Of course! :D .
Here is helis:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*e%3Aentry+group%3D78%3Aentry%3De%28%2Flis
It's with a short "e" though; while Akkadian "dēlu" (<dili) has a long one (ē).
Another similar word could be τᾶλις talis "marriageable maiden":
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dta%3Dlis
if the meaning was about "single (unmarried yet) woman.
Suddenly I remembered aramaic talitha "maiden, young woman" (like in "talitha kumi!)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Talitha
https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/20841/what-does-talitha-cumi-mean
Suddenly I remembered aramaic talitha "maiden, young woman" (like in "talitha kumi!)
Indeed very nice ! :) .
Also, this conversation about '''Hebrew ṭāle, Arabic ṭalā “young animal” and specifically “lamb”''' reminded me also Sum. sila [LAMB] (12368x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium) wr. sila4 "lamb" Akk. puhādu
Yes, quite comparable :) .
To have also a "d", I remembered also Albanian dele for "sheep":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dele
this seems to be from *dheh₁(i)- (“suckle”), like Old English delu "nipple":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/delu#Old_English
maybe sila is the suckling :D maybe also sal "woman" could be connected.
maybe sila is the suckling :D maybe also sal "woman" could be connected.
I agree! :) .
The list of ToB:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=+489&root=config
it doesn't include the *dheh₁(i)- for “suckle”; perhaps it could be related, though.
Yes :) .
In Halloran's Lexicon there is a sil = "praise" (not in ePSD, I think) and there is an Akkadian dalālu "to praise":
Proto-Semitic : *dalāl
Arabic : dallala دَلَّلَ "to pamper"
Hebrew : dall דַּלּ "to rise"
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=277&language=id
maybe a kind of d/s again (dalālu / sil).
maybe a kind of d/s again (dalālu / sil).
Yes, I think too :) .
In Greek "thḗl-" is for "feminine" (the-l, corresponds to fe-m):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B8%E1%BF%86%CE%BB%CF%85%CF%82
a "sal" (from dal/dhal) could be perhaps like θεός = σιός / theos = sios (god) in Doric Greek.
Interesting :) .
Apparently, one word šal-a (or sal-a) means "daughter" in Hurrian; the IE root of "daughter" has also to do with "suckling" and "milking", as it seems:
"The original meaning is probably "the (potential) suckler, the one that draws milk"; compare Sanskrit दुहे (duhé) / दुग्धे (dugdhe), and the *-tḗr suffix common to other r-stem kinship terms."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/d%CA%B0ugh%E2%82%82t%E1%B8%97r
Very interesting Kyriakos :) .
It would be interesting to assume a **gwh- > *dh- also here (like dheH-/dhaH- < **gwheH/gwhaH- ); especially if the root for "milk" (like Gr. γάλα gala) could be connected:
Either inherited from Proto-Indo-European *glakt-, *galakt- (note Hittite [script needed] (galaktar, “soothing substance, nutrient”), from [script needed] (galak-, “to soothe”)) or a loaned Wanderwort from an unknown Mediterranean source, possibly Pre-Greek. Related to Latin lac, Old Armenian կաթն (katʿn) and possibly Albanian gjoks.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%B1
I agree with you :) .
From the same root *dʰeh₁- we have in Greek also θήνιον thenion = γάλα gala (milk) according to Hesychius; In Sumerian we have of course also ga "milk; suckling" (Akk. šizbu).
On the other hand, the *galag-/*glak- root could be possibly related to h₂melǵ- (for "milk" etc) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82mel%C7%B5-
if we assume an ancient nasal labiovelar (like ĝalg/Hmalg, as the ĝ/m in Emesal); it's a kind of KrK / MrK root.
It's the same pattern, I think, with Sum. ĝalga [FORETHOUGHT] (37x: Old Babylonian) wr. ĝalga; ma-al-ga "(fore)thought, plan(ning); understanding; instruction, advice" Akk. milku; ţēmu (ĝalga/ malga).
It is like Sum. kaš about "advice", compared already to *k'[ē]s- "to show, to lead" (like śā́ste, śāsti `to correct, censure, control, teach' etc).
Maybe "milking" was something that should have been carefully thought, planned or forethought or / and carefully controlled, instructed or conducted :D
Maybe "milking" was something that should have been carefully thought, planned or forethought or / and carefully controlled, instructed or conducted :D
Excellent suggestions :) .
Also, kaš [DECISION] (72x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ka-aš; ga-eš8 "decision" is identical with kaš [BEER] (13889x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. kaš; kaš2 "beer; alcoholic drink" Akk. šikaru
and Lat. caseus "cheese" is from the compared IE root for "to become fervent, to become sour" *kwat": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/caseus
I know it seems very random, but maybe dairy (or bier) production was initially connected with a planning/advicing/instructing notion; and the other meanings (like sour, ferment, milking etc) were secondary to that one.
I know it seems very random, but maybe dairy (or bier) production was initially connected with a planning/advicing/instructing notion; and the other meanings (like sour, ferment, milking etc) were secondary to that one.
I find very interesting ! :D .
:D Meanwhile in the Akkadian equivalent of ĝalga (Emesal malga) "(fore)thought, plan(ning); understanding; instruction, advice", that is milku "advice, counsel" and ţēmu "(fore)thought, plan(ning)", this ţēmu looks close to Gr. τέμνω temno, meaning "to milk" (we have discussed already about this word) from kʷem- "to swallow, sip"; its place seems dubious there because ἔτεμεν means ἤμελγεν eemelgen (he milked) in Hesychius und τέμνοντα temnonta [τέμοντα temonta]= ἀμέλγοντα amelgonta (milking - akk.) also in Hes.; Pokorny seems to think that the meaning ἀμέλγειν amelgein is a kind secondary meaning of "sip"; yet I think that generally all these notions could be secondary.
I see .
Another random thought about the semantics of these roots: there is also a Sum. tam [CLEAN] (16x: Old Akkadian, Old Babylonian) wr. tam; tan2 "(to be) bright; (to be) pure; to purify; (to be) clean" Akk. ebbu; elēlu; zakû
and marjati (from Hmelg) seems to be about cleaning also:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82mel%C7%B5-
Yes :) .
Also τέμνω temno means also "cut" (you remember the discussion about "temen") and there is also the similarity of kaš "advice" with IE *kes about cutting.
I think also :) .
Reminds also the "ken/gan" roots about "rubbing, cutting, shining" etc we have discussed; maybe from gwa-n/kwa-n etc (generally I thing a g/k, or d/t isogloss is needed for these comparisons; like in the glottalic theory).
Yeah :) .
Also, if you remember, Dziebel has connected already this PIE *gweH-l– (about the-l etc) with a meaning ‘to mother’; so I guess we could use the Emesal ma for ĝa also for "mother"(connected to a notion of nursing or caring).
http://kinshipstudies.org/blog/2014/07/23/indo-european-labiovelars-a-new-look/
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mother
Makes sense ! :) .
An INTERESTING article about the words for milking also here:
https://hal.inria.fr/hal-01667476/file/GarnierSagartSagot_milk.pdf
Though I think that many solutions about all these lay in Pre-IE formations; like the above mentioned ABOUT Emesal.
BTW this Armenian katʿn "milk" (from the same root with γάλα gala) looks like this *kwat- root about "sour, frement".
Yes, I agree . Thank you .I well remember that article :) .
I wrote with capital letters because of haste :)
About the various word for milking, look also here:
https://books.google.gr/books?id=M2aqp2n2mKkC&pg=PA485&lpg=PA485&dq=hittite+word+for+milk+galank&source=bl&ots=PPocHWyk2K&sig=GTPFhWV7e0_jQSFXG0EPBs7_59I&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjpyovemJHZAhUD6xQKHRZuCH8Q6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=hittite%20word%20for%20milk%20galank&f=false
Yes :) .
I am thinking now that perhaps there is also a parallel concerning *med "to measure, to give advise" (also *meh) and *mehd "to become wet etc" (in IA it has to do with drunkness, intoxication):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/med-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/meh%E2%82%81-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/meh%E2%82%82d-
(not sure about that)
Interesting :) .
There is also a Sum. mah [COW] (1000x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. mah2 "(to be) mature, milk producing (of cows)", fitting a (nasalized) *gwaH, I think.
Yes :D .
There is also the case of Hittite "gala(n)k" about "satiate" or "soothe". Maybe the "glag-", "galak-" was used for sweet milk etc (resembles to "glyk-")
https://books.google.gr/books?id=yS9m9SwHI7EC&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=hittite+word+for+milk+galank&source=bl&ots=esVDjKdwnL&sig=LE7f3UzRqxlx0tjgl2Gyc8Rzasw&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiVq9i-2pHZAhUFfywKHbVwC78Q6AEISDAE#v=onepage&q=hittite%20word%20for%20milk%20galank&f=false
https://books.google.gr/books?id=M2aqp2n2mKkC&pg=PA485&lpg=PA485&dq=hittite+word+for+milk+galank&source=bl&ots=PPocHYwg7K&sig=rhxR8bqgQFU-5TAFx4Cc6kvSPI0&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiVq9i-2pHZAhUFfywKHbVwC78Q6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=hittite%20word%20for%20milk%20galank&f=false
The relation looks possible :) .
This "gala(n)k" looks also like "dalankha" :D but I was thinking today about the meaning of "soothe"; galank- reminded me Gr. γαλήνη galene "calm", "stilness" etc: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%AE%CE%BD%CE%B7
Also γαλανός galanos in Greek means "blue" or "light blue" (the blue of the sky; probably from γαλήνη, but some think it is from γάλα gala (milk). Galanos was also the name of our indologist (Dimitrios Galanos).
On the other hand, the proposed etymology of "calm" (from cauma "heat") is dubious, I think:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/calm
but for calm < ĝalga, we need rather a "galĝa/galma" (instead of ĝalga/malga) :D maybe the initial root was a reduplicated ĝal?
but for calm < ĝalga, we need rather a "galĝa/galma" (instead of ĝalga/malga) :D maybe the initial root was a reduplicated ĝal?
Yeah :D .
Have you also noticed that mah "(to be) mature, milk producing (of cows)" is a homonym of mah "big, great"? which is also "gal" :D
That is very interesting indeed! :D .
:D Here says that maha means not only "great, mighty, strong, abundant" but also bufallo etc:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%B9#Sanskrit
Maybe the notion of "big, abundant" was derived of bulls and cows.
Makes sense Kyriakos! :) .
Yeah - and most probably Gr. stem megal- (for feminine, neuter and the oblique cases) is from a cow :D
Yes, beautiful! :) .
I was wondering also today if this root h₂el- for "grow, nourish" is connected to a ga-l or something like; and we have a kind of "plosive loss" situation also here (g>h):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82el-
Interesting :) .
It reminded me the word "allanu" for this tree, that I thought comparable to Gr."balanos"
Latin serenus for "tranqil, calm, clear" etc, reminds Gr. galenos somehow; it could be derived also from a g'wh/ k'wh / > s (like in "sal"); it reminds also "saras" for lake etc, ewhich was compared to dalankha (as tlk/sls-srs); maybe it's of an Indic like root (this etymology of "*ksero" confirms this, I think) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/serenus
it could be derived also from a g'wh/ k'wh / > s (like in "sal"); it reminds also "saras" for lake etc, ewhich was compared to dalankha (as tlk/sls-srs); maybe it's of an Indic like root (this etymology of "*ksero" confirms this, I think)
Nice :) .
Hi Nirjhar,
About h₂el- for "grow, nourish" (like in Latin alo, alimentum etc or Gr. ἀλθω (althō), ἀλθαίνω (althainō) etc), one could notice that mah "(to be" great is written in two ways, as mah or mah2; on the other hand, mah "(to be) mature, milk producing (of cows)" is written only as mah2, which in turn is identical with the the "al" logogramm; which means "hoe" in Sumerian, yet it reminds the al- for "grow, nourish".
I agree! :) .
The "alth-" in Greek words reminds also Amaltheia Ἀμάλθεια (Amalthea), which suckled Zeus (as a baby) in mythology:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*a%3Aentry+group%3D98%3Aentry%3D*%29ama%2Flqeia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalthea_(mythology)
(From this also ἀμαλθεύω amaltheuō = τρέφω trephō "to feed"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Da)malqeu%2Fw
Yes, its very nice :) .
Again something from Gr. mythology: ĝalga as a word reminded me also Kalkhas (Calchas), a seer in Homer's Iliad, who interprets the will of gods, giving many advices to the Greeks:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calchas
btw, according to J. Halloran it's ĝalga, malga: advice, counsel; wise one; reflection, consideration; judgement (loan from Akkadian milkum; cf., Orel & Stolbova #1791 *mulak-/*mulik- 'stranger, chief') [GALGA archaic frequency: 16; concatenation of 2 sign variants].
Yes :) .
Sum. al about "hoe" and "hoeing" reminded me Gr. ἀλωή alōe, Dor. ἀλωά alōa, in Attic halōs "threshing-floor; more commonly, any prepared ground, garden, orchard, vineyard, etc" (meaning a place leveled or worked by hoeing etc)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Da)lwh%2F
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%85%CE%BB%CF%89%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
Good comparison! :) .
Well, I don't know though if it's IE or not :/ about the al/mah2 logogramm again, I've noticed that it exists also in Sum. immal [COW] (16x: Old Babylonian) wr. immal2; im-ma-al; immal; immalx(|NUN.LAGAR|) "wild cow; cow" Akk. arhu; littu.
Very interesting :) .
As it seems immal means also property:
immal [PROPERTY] wr. immal3 "(to be) very plentiful; goods, property, possessions, livestock" Akk. būšu; makkûru; maršītu; ţuhhudu
cow means wealth, obviously :)
yup! :) .
There is a Gr. word ἱμαλίς imalis "abundant", an epithet of Demeter; it seems to have to do with wheat and milling, though:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Di(mali%2Fs
I wonder if it is from bulls, cows etc used for milling; "threshing floor" must be connected also with mill.
I wonder if it is from bulls, cows etc used for milling; "threshing floor" must be connected also with mill.
I agree! :) .
Perhaps there could be a connection to this root for sheep and goats, livestock etc:
Proto-IE: *mēl-
Nostratic etymology: Nostratic etymology
Meaning: sheep, goats
Armenian: mal `Schaf, Widder'
Old Greek: mē̂lo-n n. `Kleinvieh, Schafe und Ziegen'
Germanic: *mḗl-ō f.
Celtic: OIr mīl `(kleines) Tier'; Cymr mil `Tier', OCorn mil `Tier', Bret mil `Tier'
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2feura%2fglobet&text_number=+237&root=config
In AA, it's interesting the Proto-Low East Cushitic: *māl-
Meaning: 'livestock; milking'
Somali: màal 'livestock' (<Arb.?); cf. máalayya 'milking'
Yes, they are nice :) .
There is also Proto-Omotic: *māl- meaning: 'cow'.
About Skrt. marjati again, there is a comparable Gr. ἀμέργω amergo "to pluck or pull, Lat. decerpo"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Da)me%2Frgw
and another one, ὀμόργνυμι omorgnymi "to wipe":
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Do)mo%2Frgnumi
most probably from the same root Hmelg'/Hmerg'
btw, in ToB I've seen a *mar / *mor root about "cattle / horse" ("an ungulate"); you may find it interesting; in IE it;s the *mark(')- "horse" :
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2feura%2fglobet&text_number=+417&root=config
Beautiful suggestions ! :) .
Gr. amergo and omorgnymi are already known as cognates of marjati (at Mayrhofer also) :) about the root for "ungulate" etc, I suppose it was given also for horses (in Drav. is about cows); then they used asva / hippos / equus etc because of the of horses.
About roots like "mal", we have also IE *mel (or mal, as Giacomo would say) for "strong, big" like in Lat. melior, or Gr. mala etc https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/melior
which reminds "gal"; there is also *mel for soft and *mel for "grind"; with a d extension gives "mild" - not sure which mel of two is the stem, though).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mild
So, cows, herds etc are characterized with notions of greatness, strength, pulverizing / grinding, wiping / rubbing, but also with nutrition/ milking, tenderness, softness and soothing / mildness, I guess.
So, cows, herds etc are characterized with notions of greatness, strength, pulverizing / grinding, wiping / rubbing, but also with nutrition/ milking, tenderness, softness and soothing / mildness, I guess.
Yes :) .
I meant "because of the fastness of the horses".
Of course! :) .
The etymology of Latin mollis:
"From earlier *molduis, from Proto-Indo-European *(h₂)moldus (“soft, weak”), from Proto-Indo-European *mel- (“soft, weak, tender”). Cognates include Latin mola, blandus, mortārium, Old Prussian maldai (“boys”), Old Church Slavonic младъ (mladŭ, “young”), Sanskrit मृदु (mṛdú, “soft, mild, weak”), Old Armenian մեղկ (mełk, “soft, weak”), Ancient Greek βλαδύς (bladús, “weak”) and ἀμαλδύνω (amaldúnō, “to weaken, destroy”). More at mild."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mollis#Latin
From this also mulier "woman, female" etc:
"From mollior, comparative of mollis (“soft, tender”)."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mulier
So, if *mel/*mal/*mol is connected with cows etc, so is mulier also (like Sum. sal, Gr. thel-us etc) :P
So, if *mel/*mal/*mol is connected with cows etc, so is mulier also (like Sum. sal, Gr. thel-us etc) :P
Yes :D .
About grain, grind etc and the connection with cows, I was wondering about Gr. alphiton "(a kind of) barley" etc
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Da)%2Flfiton
if connected to the AA "alp(h)-" for "ox"; they say alphiton is connected to the alp- of albus "white" (like alphos, "a type of skin disease").
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Da)%2Flfiton
(of course in case of alpu for ox, we have a comparison with elephas, lib/nig etc; we discussed about that in Giacomo's posts :D )
Yes :D .
"nig" made me now remember the Turkish word for cow, inek :D:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2falt%2fturcet&text_number=1498&root=config
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2falt%2faltet&text_number=+602&root=config
"nig" made me now remember the Turkish word for cow, inek :D:
It is nice! :D .
Besides, it looks like a gynek- ("woman") without a "g". :D
Maybe *gʷḗn is also connected with cow :P
Maybe *gʷḗn is also connected with cow :P
Yeah :D .
Well "cow, ox" in Greek is mostly βοῦς (boûs) m, f , as you know:
From Proto-Hellenic *gʷous, from Proto-Indo-European *gʷṓws. Cognates include Old English cū (English cow), Latin bōs, and Sanskrit गो (gó).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B2%CE%BF%E1%BF%A6%CF%82
There is also δάμαλις (dámalis, “heifer”), δαμάλη (damálē), for cow (see the hyponyms above); this damal- looks like the "immal" with a "d"; they say it's from δαμάζω damazo "to tame", but I doubt it; it is said also to δάμαρ damar "spouse, wife" if you remember (Dziebel has argued that damar is from *gʷḗn); since "cow" and "woman/female" seem to be connected, I think we should try this idea...
(Dziebel has argued that damar is from *gʷḗn); since "cow" and "woman/female" seem to be connected, I think we should try this idea...
Yeah :) .
About the notions of "big, great" there is also a Sumerian daĝal [WIDE] (745x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. daĝal; dam-gal; di-am-ga-al; da-ma-al "(to be) wide; width, breadth" Akk. rupšu (damal is Emesal).
Not for cows seemingly; yet the sign daĝal is the same with the one of ama [MOTHER] (863x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. ama "mother" Akk. ummu.
Interesting! :) .
daĝal could be from an old reduplication of ĝa-l, I think, with d < ĝ (with loss of the nasal).
daĝal could be from an old reduplication of ĝa-l, I think, with d < ĝ (with loss of the nasal).
Yes, it is possible :) .
ab [COW] (5272x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium, unknown) wr. ab2 "cow" Akk. arhu; littu, could be also from a b < ĝ (like from a [n?]aĝ (not at all sure about that); it reminds the Egyptian god Apis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_(deity)
It looks also close to the abba etc for "father"; maybe "mother" and "father" correspond to cow and ox :P (I'm almost sure that the pa- of "pater" is from some kwa/gwa).
It looks also close to the abba etc for "father"; maybe "mother" and "father" correspond to cow and ox :P (I'm almost sure that the pa- of "pater" is from some kwa/gwa).
I love this idea :) .
Maybe the "dr" in Sum. gu-d(r) are the same with the "-tr" in *pHtr for "father" :D
About maš [GOAT] (10699x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium) wr. maš2; maš "goat; extispicy; sacrificial animal for omens" Akk. bīru; urīşu; I was thinking about a comparison with *moiso-s oder *maiso-s "sheep; hide, leatherwork" and Indic mēšá- m. 'ram, sheep', mēṣī- `sheep skin', av. maēša- `ram, sheep'.
The meaning of "skin" exists also in Akkadian mašku:
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=3223&language=id
Maybe the "dr" in Sum. gu-d(r) are the same with the "-tr" in *pHtr for "father" :D
! :D .
Do you remember also Gr. πόρτις portis (there is also a form πόρις poris) for "young cow, heifer"?
http://vasco-caucasian.blogspot.gr/2014/07/greek-parthenos-virgin-unmarried-girl.html
http://etymology_el_en.enacademic.com/5806/%CF%80%E1%BD%B9%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%82
In Hebrew there is a word par "young bull, steer, ox" etc, also parah = "heifer, cow":
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/6499.htm
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/6510.htm
Yes :) .
Maybe there is a p < kw- here alo, as it is b < gw in case of Gr. bous for cow/ox.
And the "dr" of gudr may have given also the "rt" in this case.
When "dr" started to be pronounced as "ts" or ""s may have given bous, gos, bos etc.
Possible ! :) .
"brother" could correspond also to some **gwh > bh (as daughter is **gwh> dh) for some reason; a kind of **KrKr (where the second K is a T):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/b%CA%B0r%C3%A9h%E2%82%82t%C4%93r
Interesting :) .
Starostin thinks of a possibility of a same root with *bher "bearing a child":
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=+330&root=config
Yes .
It's just I think this *bher could be from a **gwher, as I argued already.
Of course Kyriakos :) .
BTW, in Sumerian there is šeš [BROTHER] (1579x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian, unknown) wr. šeš "brother; junior worker, assistant" Akk. ahu, which reminds Hurrian šēn- = "brother"
There is a Gr. word I can think of, κάσις kasis "brother" or "sister":
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dka%2Fsis
which could be from a **k'es/**k'as, perhaps connected to tek' (as KS from TK, maybe); I think this etymology has been proposed by an old scholar (I must check for his name); others have different views (like derived from κατά kata or και kai "and").
There is also a word κασίγνητος kasignetos "brother", assumed as from κάσις kasis and γίγνομαι gignomai ("to come into beeing").
which could be from a **k'es/**k'as, perhaps connected to tek' (as KS from TK, maybe); I think this etymology has been proposed by an old scholar (I must check for his name); others have different views (like derived from κατά kata or και kai "and").
There is also a word κασίγνητος kasignetos "brother", assumed as from κάσις kasis and γίγνομαι gignomai ("to come into beeing").
Very interesting :) .
There is a šeš "to anoint" and a šeš "a bird"; and there is also peš "to anoint" and peš "a bird"; I mean, maybe from some kind of k'w- > > p-, š- all of these? There is also peš for "thick, pregnant etc".
I think so :) .
The supposed **gwher for "bher" looks like the *gʷʰer- of gharma, thermos etc (for the heat); we have compared Sum. "barag" (or Akkadian parakku) to *bher (maybe as *bher-eg / < **gwher-eg?) in Giacomo's posts; we have also piriĝ "lion; bull, wild bull", compared to IE *ǵʰwer-, "wild, wild animal"; which looks almost identical to pirig "bright"; and IE "bright" is from *bʰereg-; but what if *bʰereg-is derived also from *gʷʰer- (or rather *gʷʰer-eg)?.
If fertility is connected with bulls, cows etc maybe the "brightness / warm etc" is connected to their colour? (yellow, red etc)?
If fertility is connected with bulls, cows etc maybe the "brightness / warm etc" is connected to their colour? (yellow, red etc)?
That's a very good concept ! :D .
It seems that the initial (labialized) g's were once much more numerous; and they were replaced afterwards in many cases by labials like "bh"; maybe this was a wave of "emesal-isation" :D
Yeah :D .
Maybe Hurrian šen- is from some "k'en" or "g'en" :P I am wondering though why in IE there is a *g'en yet not a k'en (but *ken) about bearing a child etc.
Maybe Hurrian šen- is from some "k'en" or "g'en" :P I am wondering though why in IE there is a *g'en yet not a k'en (but *ken) about bearing a child etc.
Possible! :) .
About the comparison of Sum. šeš with the kasi of κασίγνητος kasignetos "brother" again; the supposed derivation of kasi- from καί kai "and" etc (which has also a type κάς kás (Arcadocypriot) is included at the etymology of καί kai:
From earlier *kahi ← *kasi (still seen in κασίγνητος (kasígnētos)) ← *kati, from Proto-Indo-European *ḱm̥t-, from *ḱóm (“with”). Compare Hittite [script needed] (kat-ti, “along with”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%AF
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/%E1%B8%B1%C3%B3m
This was proposed by Kuiper. Reminds a bit the case of ξύν xyn we have talked before.
In Greek there is a word συγγενής syngenes (from syn + gen-) meaning "relative"
The etymology from tek' was proposed by Wackernagel; Chantraine rejects it, though.
Sum. šeš means not only "brother" but also "junior worker, assistant"; there is also a Myc. word kasikono (kasikonos) collaborator, assistant (the -konos part is the same with διάκονος diakonos, from kon- for service etc).
On the other hand, if šeš is to compared to this stuff, it should be from som k'ek'...
The etymology from tek' was proposed by Wackernagel; Chantraine rejects it, though.
Sum. šeš means not only "brother" but also "junior worker, assistant"; there is also a Myc. word kasikono (kasikonos) collaborator, assistant (the -konos part is the same with διάκονος diakonos, from kon- for service etc).
On the other hand, if šeš is to compared to this stuff, it should be from som k'ek'...
Indeed , very interesting! :) .
Hi Nirjhar,
I guess there are some more assumptions we can do about the Sumerian/Akkadian/IE relations etc. About Sum. šeš, if we assume some repuplicated **k'w/k'w we could think about a comparison with the assumed root of "father" (like kw/kw we were talked before); because the notion of "father" and "brother" (especially the older one) seem to be connected. I remember for example a word abi for the "older brother" in Turkish (like the ab- for father), and we have also Sum. pap [RELATION] (86x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. pap "first and foremost, pre-eminent; father; male, virile; brother" Akk. abu "father"; ahu "brother"; ašarēdu "first and foremost, pre-eminent"; zikaru "male, virile" (btw Akk. abu "father" and ahu "brother" seem also quite close). So, I wouldn't exclude a relation with a TK root like the one of teknon "child" etc (since we have assumed a TK < KK).
I guess there are some more assumptions we can do about the Sumerian/Akkadian/IE relations etc. About Sum. šeš, if we assume some repuplicated **k'w/k'w we could think about a comparison with the assumed root of "father" (like kw/kw we were talked before); because the notion of "father" and "brother" (especially the older one) seem to be connected.
I totally agree :) .
So, I wouldn't exclude a relation with a TK root like the one of teknon "child" etc (since we have assumed a TK < KK).
Yup :) .
Also, the etymology about Gr. kasis "brother" is from a "kat-", meaning a KT, which seems like an inversed TK; and Gr. καί kai "and" (whith a notion of addition, like "more and more" etc) reminds of fertility (with a hint of children, many kids, like brothers and sisters etc); so we could asume also a connection of the roots also in this case. Besides, the assumed kat-i > kas-i > kah-i > kai in the case of kai, especially the "kahi" makes me think of Akk. ahu for brother with a kind of lenition of k>h, maybe...
Yes, I agree :) .
This archaic root is like the Italic kʷenkʷe "five" (like *kʷe(n)kʷe) as we have seen:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Italic/k%CA%B7enk%CA%B7e
k'omt could be related, too (like a KNT < KNK root).
Of course ! :) .
About the other šeš [WEEP] (122x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. šeš4; še8-še8; še8; šeš2; šešx(|A.IGI|); šeš3; šex(|IGI×A|) "to weep" Akk. bakû
we could assume a parallel comparison with some K'K' again, as we have seen before (like the **HK of "acqua" or the TK of **dhegh of Kloekhorst about "liquid", like in ikthus for "fish", like inversed > KT, etc, or a PS like biz "tear" etc).
as we have seen before (like the **HK of "acqua" or the TK of **dhegh of Kloekhorst about "liquid", like in ikthus for "fish", like inversed > KT, etc, or a PS like biz "tear" etc).
Yes :) .
BTW, it is something I wanted to tell about IE "pénkʷe" for "five" (which I was thinking it is comparable with Sum. peš for "three" etc, due to the different numerical system 6/10 > 3/5);
this reminds of Sum. banšur [TABLE] (256x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. banšur; [ĝeš]banšur; banšur2; [ĝeš]banšur2; banšur3; [ĝeš]banšur3; banšurx(|URU×IGI|) "table" Akk. paššūru
I mean, in Greek the word for table τράπεζα trapeza is said to have come from a notion of three legs (tri- + ped-):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CF%81%CE%AC%CF%80%CE%B5%CE%B6%CE%B1
But the -ur of banšur looks like the -ur of *kʷtur- "four".
Yes, I find very interesting :D .
:D Sum. banšur and Akk. paššūru reminded me also of some Aeolic types of "four", like πῐ́σῠρες (písures) – Epic, Aeolic and πέσῠρες (pésures), πέσσῠρες (péssures):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CE%AD%CF%83%CF%83%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B5%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
Nice! :) .
As it seems, similar and also connected roots (like KK, TK, KS, SS etc) were used for "home", "parents", "children" and "cattle", "horses" altogether :D
And that makes perfect sense imo :D .
I think also that there's a big chance this "-ur" of "catur" to be the same with Sum. ur [BASE] wr. ur2; [ĝeš]ur2 "base, legs of a table" :D
oh yes :D .
Also, apart from the -ur, banšur looks like Proto-Indo-Iranian/pánča:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-Iranian/p%C3%A1n%C4%8Da
but with a meaning of "three" instead of "five", I think.
Maybe the *kwat- of catur is the same with *kat- / *kas-, dicussed above for "brother" etc, like *kat < **kwat (maybe as an additional leg) :D
Maybe the *kwat- of catur is the same with *kat- / *kas-, dicussed above for "brother" etc, like *kat < **kwat (maybe as an additional leg) :D
Yeah :D .
Or an adittional horse, ur means also "harness"; we have talked also about horses in case of "four" :D
Yup ! .
After all, a cart looks like a table with wheels :D
True! :D .
A "kw" exists also in *kwat "fermented drink" compared with Sum. kaš "beer" etc
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/kvas%D1%8A
Maybe from some similar rectangular objects (like containers) used from frementation etc?
That is probable! :D .
The root of Akkadian ahu "brother" must have also a sort of labiovelar according to ToB:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=+++2&root=config
It is interesting :) .
Maybe. There is also a Sum. šen "cauldron" Akk. ruqqu; šen means also other things (like "pure", "battle"), but šen- is "brother" in Hurrian. I think from a sort of k'en/ g'en.
Can be :) .
The logogramm of banšur looks like the one of silig "bed", which seems natural (four legs etc) silig means also "to cease" and "ax", written with (almost) the same logogramm; silig for "hand" is written differently. Halloran says that banšur means also "container".
Very interesting :) .
I remember also another Sum. word for "a container", that is tun, also bag, stomach (Akk. tākaltu = bag), apart from "lip, chin" (meaning something protruding); tun means also "ax", which in Akkadian is pāšu (!) "axe, adze".
Nice! :) .
In Greek a close word to the meaning of "ax" could be θείνω theino "to hit" (< *gʷhen-i̯ō).
I see :) .
Another word for "harness", also similar to ur, is sur [HARNESS] (4x: Old Babylonian) wr. sur5; surx(ERIN2) "to harness, tie up; to suspend, be suspended; harness team (of draft animals or workers); member of a team, team-worker" Akk. šuqallulu. I think we have talked about this word before; or maybe it was about Sum. erin...
There is also a Sum. ur [DRAG] (53x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ur3 "to go along; to wipe clean; to beat, sweep away; to drag; to raise a boat" Akk. bâ'u; kapāru; šabāţu.
Not sure, but maybe there are some sur / ur parallels; in Greek I can think of a word σύρω (súrō, “draw, drag, trail along”); like in case of the Libyan Σύρτις Syrtis gulf(s):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%A3%CF%8D%CF%81%CF%84%CE%B9%CF%82
There is also a Sum. ur [DRAG] (53x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ur3 "to go along; to wipe clean; to beat, sweep away; to drag; to raise a boat" Akk. bâ'u; kapāru; šabāţu.
Not sure, but maybe there are some sur / ur parallels; in Greek I can think of a word σύρω (súrō, “draw, drag, trail along”); like in case of the Libyan Σύρτις Syrtis gulf(s):
Interesting :) .
About Sum. gagig [CRY] wr. gagig "to cry (out), wail" Akk. nâqu
we could compare perhaps Pokorny's Root / lemma: kā̆u-, kē̆u-, kū- "to howl".
German meaning: ,heulen'
Note: onomatopoeic words, partly with anlaut. k, partly with k̂.
Material: Old Indian kā́uti `shouts, howls', Intens. kōkūyate `schreit, sounds, seufzt' (Gramm.), kṓka- m. `owl, dog'ö (`schreiend; heulend'); kokila- `cuckoo';
arm. k`uk` `στεναγμός' (: lit. kaũkti, Meillet Msl. 12, 214; die Nichtverwandlung of 2. k to s after u is in onomatopoeic words not objection);
gr. κωκύ̄ω `cry, wehklage' (dissim. from *κῡ-κύ̄-ω), κώκῡμα `lamentation'; καύᾱξ, -ᾱκος, ion. -ηξ, hom. κήξ, -κός f., κῆυξ, -ῡκος `eine Möwenart'; with fractured reduplication (as Old Indian kṓka-, lit. kaũkti, šaũkti, slav. kukati etc.) καυκαλίας, καυκίαλος, καυκιάλης bird name (Hes.);
but mcymr. cuan, cymr. cwan, abret. couann, nbret. kaouan, dial. cavan, kohan, kouhen ds.(Ernault RC 36, 2063) are probably onomatopoetische neologisms;
lat. (gall.) cavannus `Nachteule' (Anthol. lat.);
ahd. hūwo `owl', hūwila, hiuwula `Nachteule', ahd. hiuwilōn `jubeln', mhd. hiuweln, hiulen `howl, cry', mnd. hūlen, mengl. hūlen, engl. howl;
lit. (see above) kaukiù, kaũkti, lett. kàukt `howl, from Hunden or Wölfen', lit. sukùkti `ds., aufheulen', kaukalė `a kind of Wasservogel', lett. kaũka `whirlwind';
lit. kóvas m. `jackdaw', kóva f. `Saatkröhe' (*kāu̯ā = poln. kawa);
russ. kávka `frog', dial. `jackdaw', kávatь `stark cough', klr. (etc.) kávka `jackdaw', kavčáty `screech, shriek, scream, squawk, cackle, croak, yell'; ablaut. (*kēu-) bulg. čávka, serb. čâvka, čech. čavka `jackdaw'; Old Church Slavic kuja-jǫ, -ti `murmur'; russ. kúkatь `murmur, mucksen', serb. kȕkati `lament' etc.
maybe alb. kuja `lamentation' : Old Church Slavic kuja-jǫ, -ti `murmur'; çavka, çafka `heron' : čech. čavka `jackdaw'
With -b-, -b(h)o-: Old Indian kúkkubha- m. `wild rooster, cock, pheasant', gr. κουκούφας `Vogelart' (late, kaumecht gr.); onomatopoeic words are: κίκυβος probably `Nachteule' (besides κικκάβη, κίκυμος (out of it lat.cicuma), κικυμίς ds., κικκαβαῦ `deren scream'), lat. cucubiō, -īre of scream the Nachteule (Thomas Stud. 39 nimmt Hiat föllendes b an); also die b(h)-`Suffixe' the vorgenannten could so aufgekommen sein.
With -ĝ-: Old Indian kū́jati `growls, brummt, murmelt'; norw. hauke `johlen, call, shout, cry'.
Maybe alb. kujit `growl'
With -p-: got. hiufan `lament', anord. hjūfra ds., ags. hēofan ds., as. hiovan, ahd.hiofan, hioban ds.
With -r-: Old Indian cákōra- m. `a kind of partridge, game bird'; lat. caurīre `cry, of brönstigen Panther'; Old Church Slavic kurъ `rooster, cock', Church Slavic kurica `hen';
With anlaut. palatal:
Old Indian śúka- m. `parrot'; arm. sag `goose' (*k̂au̯ā) = Old Church Slavic sova `owl' (: kelt. cavannus); lit. šaukiù, šaũkti `cry, loud call, shout, cry, name'; russ. syčь `Zwergeule, Sperlingseule', čech. sýc `owl' (*k̂ūk-ti-); doubtful Old Church Slavic šumъ `noise' (*k̂ē̆u-mo-sö Brugmann II2 1, 247).
Maybe alb. zhurma `noise'
compare Suolahti Dt. bird name 185 (here about the neologism ahd. kaha `jackdaw' etc.; compare lit. kóvas etc. ds.).
References: WP. I 331 f., WH. I 184, 190, 298, Trautmann 122.
Page(s): 535-536
Very good! :D .
:D I think now some comparisons are left, here an there :) with an initial s- (like from a palatal k') there is suham [CRY] (3x: unknown) wr. suh-am3-bi; suh-am3 "cry"; there is of course also šeg [VOICE] (28x: Old Babylonian) wr. še; šeg10; šegx(|KA×KID2|); šegx(|KA×LI|); šed15; šeg12 "voice, cry, noise" Akk. rigmu
Yes, I agree with you :) .
Some more assumptions Nirjhar:
Armenian katʿn "milk" (from the same root with γάλα gala) reminds also a bit Sum. gid [DRAG] (13x: Ur III, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian) wr. gid2 "to drag, tow (a boat upstream); to pass along, transfer; to flay?; to milk" Akk. šadādu.
The other gid [LONG] (2252x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. gid2 "(to be) long; to tighten; to survey, measure out a field" Akk. arāku, concerning the meaning "long" reminded me of a Gr. work κῆτος kêtos, meaning a whale (of dubious etymology, maybe pre-Greek (whatever that means)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%E1%BF%86%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
I have to note though that the root of "milk" in Greek is gal-akt- (or glag-) and in Sumerian "gal" is also a word for "big, great" (similar notion to gid "long").
I have to note though that the root of "milk" in Greek is gal-akt- (or glag-) and in Sumerian "gal" is also a word for "big, great" (similar notion to gid "long").
Beautiful ! :) .
Note also that the root for king in Semitic is m-l-k (like in Hebrew melek etc); in IE there is Hreg' (like in rex, raj- etc) with a notion of "stretch", "straigthen" etc:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%83re%C7%B5-
Exactly! :) .
Maybe the advices (like Sum. malga etc) were "passed along, transfered", or even "dragged" :D
! :D .
About Sum. gid etc, I can think of another Gr. word (from soime other layer) κίδναμαι kidnamai
κίδναμαι kidnamai, Pass. of κίδνημι kidnemi (only found in the compd. ἐπικ-), poet. for σκεδάννυμαι skedannymai, used only in pres. and impf.,
A.to be spread abroad or over, of the dawning day.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dki%2Fdnamai
σκεδάννυμι skedannymi:
Meaning: `to scatter, to spring, to drive apart', midd. `to disperse, to burst, to go apart, to spread'
http://etymology_el_en.enacademic.com/6363/%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%B5%CE%B4%E1%BD%B1%CE%BD%CE%BD%CF%85%CE%BC%CE%B9
Etymology: The system σκεδάννυμι : σκίδνημι : σκεδάσαι was formed after wellknown examples like πετάννυμι, κεράννυμι a. o. (s. vv. and Schwyzer 697) from an unknown starting point (the aorist?). The other languages present nothing that could be compared directly with the Greek forms. Closest comes (after Jokl IF 30, 196) Alb. tshanj, tshaj `split, tear up, plough' from *sked-n̥-i̯ō. To this with nasal infix Av. sčandayeiti `break, destroy', to which may belong Skt. skhadate `split' (gramm.), if from IE *skh₂n̥d-; the last-mentioned forms can however also be explained from a d-enlarged nasal root *sk(h₂)en-d-. Without anlaut. s- the polyinterpretable Toch. AB kät- `strew (out)', pres. (B) katnau, katnaṃ with nā-suffix and unclear vowel (after v. Windekens Orbis 12, 464f. = Gr. κιδ-). To be mentioned still several verbal nouns, esp. with r-suffix, and verbs built to these: Arm. šert `chip, piece of wood', if from *sk(h₂)ed-ri- (anlaut uncertain), Lith. skedervà f. `splinter', Latv. skadrs `easy to split', Germ., e.g. MEngl. scateren, NEngl. scatter `scatter', MIr. scaindrim `split in two' etc., s. WP. 2, 558 f., 563f., Pok. 918f., 929f., W.-Hofmann s. scandula, Fraenkel s. kedė̃, Vasmer s. ščedryj w. further forms and rich lit. -- Cf. σχίζω. On κέδματα s. v.
About Sum. gid etc, I can think of another Gr. word (from soime other layer) κίδναμαι kidnamai
κίδναμαι kidnamai, Pass. of κίδνημι kidnemi (only found in the compd. ἐπικ-), poet. for σκεδάννυμαι skedannymai, used only in pres. and impf.,
A.to be spread abroad or over, of the dawning day.
Yes, it is nice :) .
Again about gid "long" there is also Albanian gjatë "tall, long"
"From dialectal and archaic glatë, from Proto-Albanian *dlata, from pre-Albanian *dl̥h₁gʰto, from Proto-Indo-European *dl̥h₁gʰós and suffix -*to."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gjat%C3%AB
Very nice :) .
Reminds again of the comparisons we have made about dalankha, a meaning of "stretch" etc... looks also like the root of Gr. γάλα gala milk...
Yes! :) .
Sum. kid (/kidr/) [BREAK] (7x: ED IIIb, Old Babylonian) wr. kid2; gir8; kid4; kid7 "to break off, pinch off" Akk. karāşu
could be compared, I think, to the already mentioned above: "To be mentioned still several verbal nouns, esp. with r-suffix, and verbs built to these: Arm. šert `chip, piece of wood', if from *sk(h₂)ed-ri- (anlaut uncertain), Lith. skedervà f. `splinter', Latv. skadrs `easy to split', Germ., e.g. MEngl. scateren, NEngl. scatter `scatter', MIr. scaindrim `split in two' etc., s. WP. 2, 558 f., 563f., Pok. 918f., 929f., W.-Hofmann s. scandula, Fraenkel s. kedė̃, Vasmer s. ščedryj w. further forms and rich lit. -- Cf. σχίζω. On κέδματα s. v.
I agree :) .
Sum. kid(r), as a kind of KT word, could have a partnair in pad [BREAK] (56x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. pad "to break (into bits)" Akk. kasāpu, as a PT word; maybe the "TK" is (s)teig- , like Sum. ti for "arrow" or "tibir" for knife...
J. Halloran has pad, paðx: n., bite, small repast (regularly followed by rá; cf., bur and búru) (sprout + repetitive processing) [? PAD archaic frequency: 38; concatenation of 2 sign variants]. v., to break off.
Probable IMO :) .
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