There is also an issue with a Gr. name Παλλάς Pallas, a name given mostly to the godess Athena, possible connected with pallex and pallake / pallakis (there is also a masculine variation Πάλλας, a name of a Titan and a giant). According to Wikipedia:
"From Ancient Greek, πάλλειν (pállein, “brandishing”), derived from πάλλω (pállō, “to poise, sway, or swing”). [1]. Or possibly from παλλακίς (pallakís, “concubine”), most likely from Proto-Indo-European *parikeh₂ (“concubine, wanton woman”), related to Avestan (pairikā, “demonic courtesan”) and Parthian parik.[2]"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Pallas
From παλλακίς (pallakís, “concubine”), most likely from Proto-Indo-European *parikeh₂ (“concubine, wanton woman”), related to Avestan pairikā, “demonic courtesan”) and Manichaean Parthian pryg (parīg).
The godess Athena of course could not be a "concubine", since she is a Παρθένος Parthenos ("maiden", "virgin"). But παλλακή pallake could mean initially "young girl" anyway.
About Iran. pairika look also here:
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/pairika
(Gr. πάλλειν (pállein, “brandishing” could be compared to Sum. bul "quake" I think, we have discussed about it at Giacomo's posts).
From παλλακίς (pallakís, “concubine”), most likely from Proto-Indo-European *parikeh₂ (“concubine, wanton woman”), related to Avestan pairikā, “demonic courtesan”) and Manichaean Parthian pryg (parīg).
The godess Athena of course could not be a "concubine", since she is a Παρθένος Parthenos ("maiden", "virgin"). But παλλακή pallake could mean initially "young girl" anyway.
Exactly .
(Gr. πάλλειν (pállein, “brandishing” could be compared to Sum. bul "quake" I think, we have discussed about it at Giacomo's posts).
'' For Turkic balyk ‘fish’ I would like to suggest that the word originally concerned the tench or some other species preferring waters with muddy or clayey bottom. This meaning was generalized over the course of time, a process due to migrations of the Turkic peoples that made more and more fish genera known to them.'' .
I'm not sure; the initial "t" I think is to explain Gr. πτόλις for πόλις. Perhaps t is a form of initial s? For example, sometimes πηλός is thought to belong to the root of Latin squalus: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/squalus and some other words like Latin caligo and Skt. kala (also Gr. κηλίς (kēlís, “spot, stain”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/caligo#Latin
Maybe it is connected somehow to this initial s of squalus; though this root (squalus excluded) could be just "kal". http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=2802&root=config
btw the form πτόλις ptolis for πόλις polis resembles a word πτέρνα / πτέρνη pterna / pterne for "heel" (a more frequent word than σφυρόν sphyron "heel, ankle"), from a curious *tpersn- root, which seems to me close to the root of spurn and shpurati (like sperH etc) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/spurn
btw, do you remember Sum. bala, wr. bal; bil2 "to rotate, turn over, cross; to pour out, libate, make a libation; reign, rotation, turn, term of office; to revolt" etc? Concerning the meaning "pour out, libate, make a libation" I suggest a comparison with Gr. παλάσσω palasso "to besprinkle, sully, defile" ( literally to defile by making wet something, usually connected to πάλλω pallo, but sometimes connected also to πηλός pelos / παλός palos "clay"). Hesychius gives a word πάλκος palkos for πηλός pelos "clay".
And some people think about a connection to Lithuanian pelkė "swamp, marsh, bog" "From Proto-Indo-European *pelHk-iH-h₂, related to Latvian pelce (“puddle”), Latin palus (“marsh”), Sanskrit पल्वल (palvala, “pool, pond”), and possibly πηλός (pēlós, “mud, earth, clay”)." https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pelk%C4%97
The funny thing is that there is a Lith. bala "swamp" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bala#Lithuanian which is said to be from a proto slavic *bolto https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/bolto
Maybe it is connected somehow to this initial s of squalus; though this root (squalus excluded) could be just "kal". http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=2802&root=config
btw the form πτόλις ptolis for πόλις polis resembles a word πτέρνα / πτέρνη pterna / pterne for "heel" (a more frequent word than σφυρόν sphyron "heel, ankle"), from a curious *tpersn- root, which seems to me close to the root of spurn and shpurati (like sperH etc) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/spurn
btw, do you remember Sum. bala, wr. bal; bil2 "to rotate, turn over, cross; to pour out, libate, make a libation; reign, rotation, turn, term of office; to revolt" etc?
Yes :) . And some people think about a connection to Lithuanian pelkė "swamp, marsh, bog" "From Proto-Indo-European *pelHk-iH-h₂, related to Latvian pelce (“puddle”), Latin palus (“marsh”), Sanskrit पल्वल (palvala, “pool, pond”), and possibly πηλός (pēlós, “mud, earth, clay”)." https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pelk%C4%97
The funny thing is that there is a Lith. bala "swamp" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bala#Lithuanian which is said to be from a proto slavic *bolto https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/bolto
Very interesting! :) . About palvala Monier-Wiiliams say- '1 palvala n. (m. Siddh.) a pool , small tank , pond. [Cf. Gk. $ ; Lat. {palus} ; Lith. {pu4rvas} (?).] &187198[610 ,3] '
The funny thing is that there is a Lith. bala "swamp" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bala#Lithuanian which is said to be from a proto slavic *bolto https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/bolto
The comparison is with Suμ. word: biz [TRICKLE] (12x: Old Babylonian) wr. bi-iz; biz "to trickle, drip" Akk. başāşu
The pask- of this word reminds me of a psak- (ψακ-) in this word: ψα^κάζω psakazo, later ψεκάζω psekazo, (ψακάς psakas):— "A.rain in small drops, drizzle, drip".
I.any small piece broken off, a grain, morsel, bit, ἀργυρίου μηδὲ ψακάς, i.e. not even a silver penny, Ar.; collectively, ψάμμου ψεκάς grains of sand, Anth. II.a drop of rain; and collectively, drizzling rain, ὕσθησαν αἱ Θῆβαι ψακάδι Hdt.; ψακὰς δὲ λήγει drops are ceasing, i.e. a storm is coming, Aesch.:—generally, rain, Eur.; ψακάδι φοινίας δρόσου with a sprinkling of bloody dew, Aesch. 2.Comic name for a sputterer, Ar.
Akk. bāṣu "sand" also here: http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=b%C4%81%E1%B9%A3u&language=rawakkadian
Gr.ψάμμος psammos for "sand" here (I think we have been talking about it in Giacomo's posts): http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dya%2Fmmos
I think that the Skt. reflexes of *bhes (BHAS / PSA) is about chewing etc: http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=babhasti&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3 http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=psAta&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
''*pisk- Proto-Indo-European root meaning "a fish."
It forms all or part of: fish; fishnet; grampus; piscatory; Pisces; piscine; porpoise.
It is the hypothetical source of/evidence for its existence is provided by: Latin piscis (source of Italian pesce, French poisson, Spanish pez, Welsh pysgodyn, Breton pesk); Old Irish iasc; Old English fisc, Old Norse fiskr, Gothic fisks.'' https://www.etymonline.com/word/*pisk- https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1467
Yes, I think we could; Hesychius gives these two types πάλκος "palkos" and πάσκος "paskos" for πηλός pelos "mud, clay"; it seems as if Turkic balik (**palk?) and IE *pisk (**pask?) are variants of the same word, meaning perhaps something "creature of the muddy waters" (as this paper implies for "balik").
Also, at Kloekhorst's paper about the "thorn clusters" (more specifically about the *degh- root for Gr. "ikthys" fish, there was the following note "Already Brandenstein (1936: 29) connected the word for ‘fish’ with a root *deǵh-, which he translates as “eintauchen”.44 However, on the basis of OIr. deug (f.) ‘drink, draught, potion’ and Lith. dažaĩ ‘liquid dye, paint’, dažýti ‘to paint’, the nominal root *deǵh- may originally rather have meant ‘liquid’. This would indicate that *dǵh-uH- originally meant‘the one belonging to liquid; fish’.4" Of course the source of some IE words for "wall" (like deha and Gr. τειχος teikhos) is also a similar "thorn cluster" root meaning "dough" etc (perhaps a liquid dense substance").
And I have possibly found another new ( not sure may be someone did already :) ) Cognate possibility between IE branches , compare Sanskrit 1 tas 1 cl. 4. %{-syati} , to fade away , perish Dha1tup. xxvi , 103 ; (cf. %{taMs}) to cast upwards (or `" to throw down "') ib. (Vop.) ; to throw Pa1n2. 3-4 , 61 Ka1s3. 2. 2 tas mfn. `" throwing "' with toss (v.) mid-15c., "to lift or throw with a sudden movement," of uncertain origin, possibly from a Scandinavian source (compare dialectal Norwegian tossa "to strew, spread"). Food preparation sense (with reference to salad, etc.) is recorded from 1723. Intransitive sense "be restless; throw oneself about" is from 1550s. Related: Tossed; tossing. https://www.etymonline.com/word/toss https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/toss
Kloekhorst's view is also at Wikipedia: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C5%BEuvis#Lithuanian
Now, it's your term: do you think there is some connection with "matsya", at least about the meaning like "muddy water or substance"?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF From Proto-Indo-Iranian *mátsyas. Cognate with Avestan 𐬨𐬀𐬯𐬌𐬌𐬀 (masiia).
Forgive me now for my backround, but this masiia reminds me this word: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/messiah
Recalling also this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthys
Then this Sumerian word: peš [ANOINT] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. peš5 "to anoint" Akk. pašāšu "to anoint"
and we know that in Sumerian we also have: peš [FISH] (1x: Old Akkadian) wr. pešku6 "a fish" which according to Whittaker is the same with IE *peisk etc etc
About matsya Mayrhofer is referring to a *mad-(a)s- root. Do you think it could be from *meh₂d- root "to be wet, to become wet"? (alternative root *mad)
Take for example Latin madeo: From Proto-Indo-European *meh₂d- (“to drip, ooze; grease, fat”). See also Ancient Greek μαδάω (madáō), μαστός (mastós), μεστός (mestós), English meat, Sanskrit मदति (mádati), ममत्ति (mamátti), and Old Irish maidim. Compare Serbo-Croatian modar (“blue”).
Now, it's your term: do you think there is some connection with "matsya", at least about the meaning like "muddy water or substance"?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF From Proto-Indo-Iranian *mátsyas. Cognate with Avestan 𐬨𐬀𐬯𐬌𐬌𐬀 (masiia).
Yes ! I think you also remember this : Proto-IE: *menǝ(w)- Nostratic etymology: Nostratic etymology Meaning: a k. of fish Old Indian: mīna- m. `fish' (MInd. deriv. from *minya-) Old Greek: mái̯nǟ f., mai̯nís, -ídos f. N. eines kleinen heringähnlichen Fisches, `Maena vulgaris' Slavic: *mьnь `Aalraupe' Baltic: *men̂-k-ā̂, -iā̃ (1) f., -ia- (1) c. Germanic: *mun-jōn- f., *muniw-ō f. http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+753&root=config
The ultimate root is likely 'to be moist, wet' with a root like *ma/*me-
compare this : https://www.etymonline.com/word/moist
https://www.etymonline.com/word/mucus
Perhaps this Pokorny root : https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1208 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%B4%CE%B1%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%82 This root of TOB is attractive : Proto-IE: *mū- Nostratic etymology: Nostratic etymology Meaning: to wash, to wet Old Greek: kypr. mülásthai = tò sō̂ma hḕ tḕn kephalḕn smḗxasthai. Kǘprioi (Hsch. = Bechtel Dial. 1, 451), NGreek (Chios) mūliázō, mūlíasma 'im Wasser einweichen' (Fraenkel, 417) Slavic: *mɨ̄́tī, *mɨ̄́dlo Baltic: *maû- vb. (2); *maû-d-ī- vb., *mū̂-d-ē̂- vb. (2) Germanic: *mūt-[ō]- vb. Russ. meaning: мыть(ся), мочить(ся) References: WP II 249 f Comments: [Cf. *mū- `to soil'] http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=2884&root=config https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1312 https://www.etymonline.com/word/mud Pokorny's other roots like this one seems related : https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1223
See what Monier-Williams say on Sanskrit mad : 2 mad 2 (cf. %{mand}) cl. 4. P. (Dha1tup. xxvi , 99) %{mA4dyati} (ep. also %{-te} ; Ved. also I. P. A1. %{mA4dyati} %{-te} ; 3. P. %{mama4tti} , %{-ttu} , %{mama4dat} , %{a4mamaduH} ; Ved. Impv. %{ma4tsi} , %{-sva} ; pf. %{mamA4da} ; aor. %{amAdiSuH} , %{amatsuH} , %{amatta} ; Subj. %{ma4tsati} , %{-sat} ; fut. %{maditA} , %{madiSyati} Gr. ; Ved. inf. %{maditos}) , to rejoice , be glad , exult , delight or revel in (instr. gen. loc. , rarely acc.) , be drunk (also fig.) with (instr.) RV. &c. &c. ; to enjoy heavenly bliss (said of gods and deceased ancestors) RV. TBr. ; to boil bubble (as water) RV. TS. S3Br. Hariv. ; to gladden , exhilarate , intoxicate , animate , inspire RV.: Caus. %{mA8da4yati} , %{-te} (Dha1tup. xxxiii , 31 , xix , 54 ; aor. %{a4mImadat} or %{amamadat} ; Ved. inf. %{madaya4dhyai}) , to gladden , delight , satisfy , exhilarate , intoxicate , inflame , inspire RV. &c. &c. ; (A1.) to be glad , rejoice , be pleased or happy or at ease RV. VS. Kaus3. ; (A1.) to enjoy heavenly bliss RV. TBr. BhP.: Desid. %{mimadiSati} Gr.: Intens. %{mAmadyate} , %{mAmatti} ib. [Perhaps orig. `" to be moist "' ; cf. Gk. $ ; Lat. {madere}.] &236247[777 ,3]
Forgive me now for my backround, but this masiia reminds me this word: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/messiah
Possible! :D .
Recalling also this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthys
Then this Sumerian word: peš [ANOINT] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. peš5 "to anoint" Akk. pašāšu "to anoint"
and we know that in Sumerian we also have: peš [FISH] (1x: Old Akkadian) wr. pešku6 "a fish" which according to Whittaker is the same with IE *peisk etc etc
And of course I just saw your comment of ''About matsya Mayrhofer is referring to a *mad-(a)s- root. Do you think it could be from *meh₂d- root "to be wet, to become wet"? (alternative root *mad)''
Υeah, also this paper (about balik) make reference again for a meaning of glistering concerning the fish :D do you think that the Harappan fishes may refer to cities instead :P
Another thing I am curious about is the possible connection with the "honey" root(s) *medhu and *meli-t (maybe a depper connection to *ma- / me-?); also concerning turkish bal for honey. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/m%C3%A9d%CA%B0u https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/m%C3%A9lit
Also, what about "mud"? https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mud https://www.etymonline.com/word/mud
I would like to suggest here also that this one should be related too : '' mere (n.) Old English mere "sea, ocean; lake, pool, pond, cistern," from Proto-Germanic *mari (source also of Old Norse marr, Old Saxon meri "sea," Middle Dutch maer, Dutch meer "lake, sea, pool," Old High German mari, German Meer "sea," Gothic marei "sea," mari-saiws "lake"), from PIE root *mori- "body of water." https://www.etymonline.com/word/*mori- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mere#English (Related https://www.etymonline.com/word/mire https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mire#Etymology_1 ) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/m%C3%B3ri To above the Sanskrit mIra m. the sea , ocean Un2. ii , 25 Sch. (L. also `" a partic. part of a mountain ; a limit , boundary ; a drink , beverage "'). http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=mIra&direct=se Should be connected .
BTW Perhaps this Indic one also is related : ''mārtta 10085 *mārtta ʻ earthen ʼ. 2. mārttika -- ʻ earthen ʼ MānŚr., n. ʻ lump of earth ʼ Bhām., m.n. ʻ earthen pot ʼ Gr̥Śr. [S. L. WPah. poss. < *martta -- . -- mŕ̊ttikā -- ] 1. Paš.uzb. mōtr̥ ʻ clay ʼ; K. maṭh, dat. °ṭas m. ʻ large earthen vessel ʼ; S. maṭu, māṭo m. ʻ large earthen vessel used as a float ʼ; L. maṭṭ m. ʻ alluvial deposit, large earthen vessel (= Ju. maṭ m.) ʼ; WPah.bhal. maṭṭ m. ʻ large vessel used in sacrifices ʼ; Ku. māṭ ʻ large earthen jar ʼ; Bi. māṭ ʻ earthen vessel for storing grain ʼ, mag. ʻ underground grain pit ʼ, (Campāran) maṭ(u)kā ʻ earthen vessel for grain or water ʼ, (Gaya) mã̄ṭ ʻ large flat jar ʼ; H. māṭ m. ʻ large earthen vessel ʼ; G. māṭ m.n. ʻ earthen pot ʼ, māṭlī f. ʻ small do. ʼ, °lũ n. ʻ large do. ʼ. 2. Pa. mattika -- ʻ made of clay ʼ; Sh. māṭi̯ f. ʻ fine palecoloured clay ʼ; K. müṭü f. ʻ large earthen vessel ʼ, S. māṭī f. ʻ do. (used as a float) ʼ, P. maṭṭī f.; N. maṭiyā ʻ small earthen pot ʼ; A. maṭhiyā ʻ large earthen jar ʼ, maṭiyā ʻ earthen ʼ; B. meṭiyā ʻ id. ʼ, māṭiyā ʻ earthen, earth -- coloured ʼ; Or. māṭiā ʻ earthy ʼ; H. maṭ(ṭ)iyā ʻ made of clay ʼ. mārttika -- see prec. Addenda: *mārtta -- . 1. S.kcch. maṭṭ m. ʻ large earthen waterpot ʼ.'' http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.3.soas.482455
Now , this is my last suggestion of the day , how about we connect this ? :) : https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mother#Etymology_1 https://www.etymonline.com/word/mother https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1228 https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1207
eah, also this paper (about balik) make reference again for a meaning of glistering concerning the fish :D do you think that the Harappan fishes may refer to cities instead :P
Interesting! :) .
Another thing I am curious about is the possible connection with the "honey" root(s) *medhu and *meli-t (maybe a depper connection to *ma- / me-?); also concerning turkish bal for honey..
Besides, there is also a Skt. mAna meaning "dwelling, house"; maybe the fishes are about mansions :D. Also, we have latin moenia for walls: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/moenia
I am recalling now Sum. bad "(city)wall"; perhaps from a root like this one at Starling:
Uralic: Proto: *paδV > Nostratic: > Nostratic English meaning: dam, enclosure, fish trap German meaning: Damm, Wehr, Fischfangsperre Finnish: pato 'Damm' Saam (Lapp): buođđo -đ- (N) 'dam (usually of peat), enclosure for netting salmon', pi̮ǝ̑Dta (T; gen. pi̮ǝda), pu͕ǝDtA (Kld.), pu͕αDDA (Ko. Not.) 'kleiner Damm (Fangvorrichtung für Fische und Fischotter)' Khanty (Ostyak): păl (V O), păt (DN) 'Wehr' Hungarian: fal 'Wall; Nauer; (dial.) der Teil des Schlammbeißerkorbs oder der Reuse, in dem die Fische gefangen bleiben' Sammalahti's version: *pa/iδa
btw, in turkish bal possibly is m>b, perhaps something like in Gr. βλίττω blitto (bl- <ml-) "to extract the honey of the bees" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*b%3Aentry+group%3D8%3Aentry%3Dbli%2Fttw
About "mother", it could be from a *ma (perhaps concerning nourishment, milk etc, like a thick liquid etc); the root according to the ToB is *mā-t-er- :
Maybe the -t-er ending is just from "father" (pa-t-er) http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+846&root=config
I propose to explore the possibility of a pat- root for father: a father after all is a protector (lik the pat- in "wall"). Maybe the pat- root of father- in IE is what is missing from the other Nostratic for *pado "wall" (no IE there, I remember only an Armenian pat for "city wall").
Of course we have the root of pati, we have discussed about it in Giacomo's posts so many times (Whittaker compared also a Sum. mutin to an IE pot-, like in Gr. πότνια potnia etc; a case of m / p also here). Proto-IE: *pot-, -d- Nostratic etymology: Nostratic etymology Meaning: master Tokharian: A pats, B pets (PT *petsä) 'husband' (Adams 401) Old Indian: páti- m. `master, lord, ruler'; pátnī f. `female possessor, mistress'; pátyate `to reign, rule, govern' Avestan: paiti- m. 'Herr, Gebieter, Gemahl'; paɵnī- 'Herrin'; xaē-pati- 'er selbst' Old Greek: pósi-s, -ios m. `Ehemann, Gatte, Gemahl', pótnia f. `Herrin, Herrscherin (bes. von Göttinnen); dés-poi̯na f. `Herrin, Hausfrau', des-pótǟ-s, -ọ̄ `Herr, Hausherr, Herrscher'; despózdō (-d-) 'to be lord or master' Slavic: *gospodь, *gospodā́ Baltic: *pat-i- m., *pat-ī f., *pat-jā f. Germanic: *fáɵ-i- m. Latin: potis, -e `vermögend, mächtig'; hospes, gen. -itis m. `Gastfreund'; possideō, -ēre, -sēdī `besitzen, besetzt halten', possum, posse, potuī `können' Celtic: Bret ozech `Hausherr, Gatte' Russ. meaning: хозяин References: WP II 77 f http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+921&root=config
About the words you posted for *martta / mŕ̊ttikā etc, http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.3.soas.482455
We were talking about that, about a year before, Mayrhofer has it in mṛd "earth, clay"; a first impression is that it looks like the word for "dead" (*mr̥tós):
which in Greek gives a word μορτός mortos, but also another one βροτός brotos "mortal man": From Proto-Hellenic *mrotós, from Proto-Indo-European *mr̥twós or *mr̥tós (“dead, mortal”), ultimately from the root *mer- (“to die”). Cognates include Sanskrit मृत (mṛtá), Old Armenian մարդ (mard), Latin mortuus, Old Church Slavonic мрътвъ (mrŭtvŭ), Persian مرد (mard) and Old English morþ.
Another word βρότος brotos, means the "blood that has run from a wound, gore". https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B2%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%82
If this brotos is from a similar mr̥t-, it could be connected, I think, to mṛd (clay, as similar to blood, especially gore); also these words you posted for "jar" reminded me a Sum. word mud "beer jar" etc; I made the connection because there is also a Sum. mud "blood" (Akk. dāmu "blood, dark"). Well, I'm not sure about all that.
the melit of "honey" (if we are talking about the dense liquid)
About "mother", it could be from a *ma (perhaps concerning nourishment, milk etc, like a thick liquid etc); the root according to the ToB is *mā-t-er- :
I agree! :) .
I propose to explore the possibility of a pat- root for father: a father after all is a protector (lik the pat- in "wall"). Maybe the pat- root of father- in IE is what is missing from the other Nostratic for *pado "wall" (no IE there, I remember only an Armenian pat for "city wall"). Sounds good! :) .
Of course we have the root of pati, we have discussed about it in Giacomo's posts so many times (Whittaker compared also a Sum. mutin to an IE pot-, like in Gr. πότνια potnia etc; a case of m / p also here).
Yup! :) . We were talking about that, about a year before, Mayrhofer has it in mṛd "earth, clay"; a first impression is that it looks like the word for "dead" (*mr̥tós): Ah yes! , yes this is good also! :) . Another word βρότος brotos, means the "blood that has run from a wound, gore". https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B2%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%82
If this brotos is from a similar mr̥t-, it could be connected, I think, to mṛd (clay, as similar to blood, especially gore); also these words you posted for "jar" reminded me a Sum. word mud "beer jar" etc; I made the connection because there is also a Sum. mud "blood" (Akk. dāmu "blood, dark"). Well, I'm not sure about all that.
the melit of "honey" (if we are talking about the dense liquid).
Agreed! :) .
Oh yes now I remember , here is a very interesting paper on Linear A script (if you already didn't refer it ;)) , it has deciphered some and also listed . A friend told me that there are some Sanskrit similar words too !, I am looking for them and of course more connections with other IE languages and Sumerian etc are on the cards perhaps! :) . https://www.academia.edu/34970148/Preview_of_the_Revised_Linear_A_Lexicon_Lexicon_of_1070_words_only_40_median_deciphered
About the possibility of a **mlt / mld for "(thick?) liquid" as a progenitor of *melit for "honey" (and thinking of a **mld perhaps also connected with SKt. *mrd for clay / earth): there are some Gr. words beginning with βλ- bl-, which could be perhaps connected.
At Hesychius, for example, there is a word βλίδες blides = ψεκάδες psekades (blides = "small drops from drizzling" etc - about a possible comparison of "psekas" to Sum. biz I was talking above); perhaps it is now blid- from mlid-? which we could suppose as connected to mrd?
In Sumerian a word "bizaza" for "frog" could be connected also to "biz" perhaps and the notion of liquid. Well, if βλίδες blides = ψεκάδες psekades, then, there are some words for "frog" starting with blid-/ blik-: βλίκανος blikanos, ὁ, = βάτραχος batrakhos ("frog"), Hsch., EM201.42:—also βλίχας blikhas, Hsch.: βλίκαρος blikaros, Suid. These all seems to be from something like **mlik- / **mlikh- ?. If they follow the pattern of βλίττω (from mlit-). There is also a βλίταχος blitakhos for "frog" (from **mlit-?)
About the possibility of a **mlt / mld for "(thick?) liquid" as a progenitor of *melit for "honey" (and thinking of a **mld perhaps also connected with SKt. *mrd for clay / earth): there are some Gr. words beginning with βλ- bl-, which could be perhaps connected.
Sounds quite reasonable! :) .
At Hesychius, for example, there is a word βλίδες blides = ψεκάδες psekades (blides = "small drops from drizzling" etc - about a possible comparison of "psekas" to Sum. biz I was talking above); perhaps it is now blid- from mlid-? which we could suppose as connected to mrd?
I find it good :) .
These all seems to be from something like **mlik- / **mlikh- ?. If they follow the pattern of βλίττω (from mlit-). There is also a βλίταχος blitakhos for "frog" (from **mlit-?)
I think that there could be also an issue about the word "blood" (seems like a "**bld-" (< **mlt/**mld?)?, let's say, word to me); of uncertain origin: "From Middle English blood, from Old English blōd, from Proto-Germanic *blōþą, of uncertain origin. Cognate with Saterland Frisian Bloud, West Frisian bloed, Dutch bloed, German Blut, Danish, Swedish and Norwegian blod."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/blood
There is also an etymology from *bhel: https://www.etymonline.com/word/blood
About a possible connection between "blood" and "honey", we have discussed about a similar hypothesis at Giacomo's posts; we were talking about Gr. haima for "blood" and a norwegian *seim meaning something like "thick fluid, honey" and Giacomo has said that if it was *saim- it would fit perfect to haima "blood" morphologically and semantically as "thick fluid". He gave this link: https://www.dwds.de/wb/seimig Btw, at the old dnghu, a reference was made for soma "blood of animals, sap of plants, soma plant, intoxicating drink", in comparison to these words.
In this case (of "blood") I think we could imagine also a **mld > **bld, for "thick liquid - honey" / "blood". On the other hand, if "mld" is connected with "mrd" (like in clay) and if there is a mp equation, as Whittaker says (like for mutin / potim etc); since also there is an archaic equation (in Sumerian) for g/b, we could have perhaps a process like mrd/ prd / brt, then krt (with b/g), then a word like Drav. kuruti and kurudi for "blood, red colour etc" , Skt. kravis, or Gr. kreas / -atos "flesh, connected to Sum. kurun for "blood", also "sweet wine" etc...
So, a general impression is that maybe we have to do with loan-words from the one proto-dialect (or even proto-language) to the other inside the "language continuum" (with many possible modifications or even influences from other words during this processs); later these words were "normalized" as the proper word for each language.
There is also English "gore" = 1) (obsolete except in dialects) Dirt; mud; filth. 2) Blood, especially that from a wound when thickened due to exposure to the air. 3) Murder, bloodshed, violence. From Middle English gor, gore, gorre, from Old English gor (“dirt, dung, filth, muck”), from Proto-Germanic *gurą (“half-digested stomach contents; feces; manure”), from Proto-Indo-European *gʷʰer- (“hot; warm”) .
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gore
(the derivation from *gʷʰer- “hot; warm” seems odd, though)
I think that there could be also an issue about the word "blood" (seems like a "**bld-" (< **mlt/**mld?)?, let's say, word to me); of uncertain origin:.
Certainly! :D .
s Whittaker says (like for mutin / potim etc); since also there is an archaic equation (in Sumerian) for g/b, we could have perhaps a process like mrd/ prd / brt, then krt (with b/g), then a word like Drav. kuruti and kurudi for "blood, red colour etc" , Skt. kravis, or Gr. kreas / -atos "flesh, connected to Sum. kurun for "blood", also "sweet wine" etc...
Very interesting ! :) .
So, a general impression is that maybe we have to do with loan-words from the one proto-dialect (or even proto-language) to the other inside the "language continuum" (with many possible modifications or even influences from other words during this processs); later these words were "normalized" as the proper word for each language.
Another Sum. word with a reference to "honey" (I think you have compared it with the English "good") is this one: kud [SWEET] (65x: Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. ku7 "(to be) good; (to be ) (honey-)sweet" Akk. dašpu; matqu; ţābu if there is an equation of **mlt/mld -mrt/mrd / **krt-krd, I think it could be also explained (I mean, if Sum. mud is really connected to mrd, then kud could be reffered to a **krt (like in Drav. kuruti etc).
I remember also a similar Sum. word kad [TIE] (20x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. kad5; kad4; kad6; kad8 "to tie, gather; to itch, scratch; to weave a mat?" Akk. harādu; harāsu; kaşāru.
About the meaning "to weave a mat", I think that you have proposed a kard / kart root and a krtati word to "tie" also a kata-m "strw mat"; also you have proposed kaNDu for "itch, scratch" :D
About the meaning "to tie, gather" what do you think about a possible connection to Skt. gadha etc (with meaning as firm, strong, dense, fasten, tight etc" http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=gadha&direct=se
My lexicon seems to be satisfied with a connection of Gr. ἀγαθός agathos "good, brave, useful" etc https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CE%B3%CE%B1%CE%B8%CF%8C%CF%82 with this Skt. word (first meaning of agathos in Linear B seems to be "useful, well working", so it is supposed to be from sm-gadhos (> agathos).
Could be the gadh- root be connected to an older kat- from an older krt? the types with r seem to be more archaic.
About the meaning "to tie, gather" what do you think about a possible connection to Skt. gadha etc (with meaning as firm, strong, dense, fasten, tight etc" http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=gadha&direct=se
My lexicon seems to be satisfied with a connection of Gr. ἀγαθός agathos "good, brave, useful" etc https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CE%B3%CE%B1%CE%B8%CF%8C%CF%82 with this Skt. word (first meaning of agathos in Linear B seems to be "useful, well working", so it is supposed to be from sm-gadhos (> agathos).
Yes I agree ! :D
Could be the gadh- root be connected to an older kat- from an older krt? the types with r seem to be more archaic. . I think too :) .
The etymology of agathos reminded me a similar etymology; the one of Sanskrit https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%82%E0%A4%B8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%95%E0%A5%83%E0%A4%A4#Sanskrit
Concerning the Minoans and the Indic connection, maybe the island Crete was named by a krt word? (something like union of cities or people).
Another Sum. mud "(to be) scared, terrified" has an Akk. equivalent "parādu" (let's say this is the **prt part)΄another Akkadian verb I remember for "to be scared" is galātu / galādu (maybe e the **krt / **klt? one)
The only IE possible root for "fear" with an "mr-" I can imagine is this one: Proto-IE: *bhorm-, *morm- Meaning: fear, terrible ghost Old Greek: mormṓ, gen. -ọ̄̂s, att. -ónos f. `Popanz, Schreckgespenst'; mórmoros = phóbos Hsch.; mǘrmos = phóbos Hsch., mórmē = khalepḗ, ekplēktikḗ Hsch. Latin: formīdō, -inis f. `Gespenst, Vogelscheuche; Grausen, peinigende Furcht, Schrecken' http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+790&root=config
Eurasiatic: *belHi Meaning: to fear, be scared Borean: Borean Altaic: *bele ( ~ -o) Uralic: *pele Dravidian: *veḷ- Chukchee-Kamchatkan: Chuk. *pɔlmär (1031). References: МССНЯ 331-332, ОСНЯ 2, 98-99, ND 1704 *pelqE 'to tremble, fear' (+ Sem.) (but PIE *pelǝ- 'shake', PD *pir_V- 'tremble, fear' and AA forms with *p- should be kept apart).
Starostin excludes the PIE root for "tremble", but I think he's wrong; at least Sum. buluh and Akk. galātu means "to tremble, be afraid". (See also ETCSL: bu-luh=to shudder.); Sum. bul after all means "to shake"
The uralic form are quite interesting: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2furalic%2furalet&text_number=+749&root=config
Concerning again about Sum. buluĝ "to grow up, rear, make grow; novice; foster child" Akk. rabû; tarbûtu - having also in mind the Cretan connection, I remembered a name for Zeus used in Create, that is Velchanos, maybe a similar word to Sum. buluĝ? In one sense, Zeus was a foster child.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus#Zeus_Velchanos
"Welchanos was associated with agrarian magic, with the vegetation cycle and seasonal death, and with the rebirth of nature."
But for this I'm not sure if this is really connected. .
Me too :) . It's a bit curious that mud = "create" looks like the opposite of dumu = "child". .
Yes :) .
Starostin excludes the PIE root for "tremble", but I think he's wrong; at least Sum. buluh and Akk. galātu means "to tremble, be afraid". (See also ETCSL: bu-luh=to shudder.); Sum. bul after all means "to shake" .
Correct! :) . The Uralic form is indeed interesting! :D .
Hmm yes Velchanos and bulug looks good comparisons :) .
bulug and buluh maybe are connected because of the fear, awe for natural forces. Also, the Dravid forms (from *veḷk-) mean "ashamed; afraid", like Tamil veḷku (veḷki-) which means "to be ashamed, be coy, bashful, fear, shudder, be perplexed"; a Kannada derivate beḷkane "to turn pale through fear" is very close to Velkhanos, I think.
If you remember, when discussing about Sum. teš "pride" (Akk. bāštu), I was thinking of a comparison with the root of Gr. θεός theos "god" (from a meaning "something that you respect, which makes you feel awe for it, which you are afraid of etc"). Akkad. bāštu "pride" also comes from a word bâšu : (1) [TÉŠ] 1) to be ashamed , to come to shame ; 2) to be abashed / embarrassed / disconcerted / ruffled (?) / discombobulated / bewildered / confounded / puzzled / baffled ; D : to put to shame , to disappoint , to lower , to abase , to abash , to confuse , to disconcert , to puzzle , to bewilder , to put to shame , to embarrass etc
bulug and buluh are similar forms and I think Velchanos looks like some of the proposed Dravidian reflexes for buluh "fear" :).
True :) .
bulug and buluh maybe are connected because of the fear, awe for natural forces. Also, the Dravid forms (from *veḷk-) mean "ashamed; afraid", like Tamil veḷku (veḷki-) which means "to be ashamed, be coy, bashful, fear, shudder, be perplexed"; a Kannada derivate beḷkane "to turn pale through fear" is very close to Velkhanos, I think.
It is close .
f you remember, when discussing about Sum. teš "pride" (Akk. bāštu), I was thinking of a comparison with the root of Gr. θεός theos "god" (from a meaning "something that you respect, which makes you feel awe for it, which you are afraid of etc"). Akkad. bāštu "pride" also comes from a word bâšu : (1) [TÉŠ] 1) to be ashamed , to come to shame ; 2) to be abashed / embarrassed / disconcerted / ruffled (?) / discombobulated / bewildered / confounded / puzzled / baffled ; D : to put to shame , to disappoint , to lower , to abase , to abash , to confuse , to disconcert , to puzzle , to bewilder , to put to shame , to embarrass etc
Hi Nirjhar, I was wondering about the proposed IE root *dʰéh₁s for θεός theos ( < *dʰh₁s-o-) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/d%CA%B0%C3%A9h%E2%82%81s
I think that Sum. "teš" fits well with *dʰéh₁s. I was thinking now about the Akkadian bâšu and bāštu; because they look to me similar to Lat. fēstus (and fānum): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/festus#Latin https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fanum#Latin
Not sure about that; yet maybe some IE dialects shared their words with both Sumerian and Akkadian (most probably this is an imagination of mine).
Another random thought is that "bāštu" looks like the city of Φαιστός Phaistos in Crete (but with ph instead of b): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaistos
And Phaistos reminds the god Hephaistos (Hephaestus), which is connected to Latin Vulcan (seems similar to Velchanios, though it could be just a coincidence).
I think that Sum. "teš" fits well with *dʰéh₁s. Yes I think you also suggested this before? :) . I agree with you!:) .
I was thinking now about the Akkadian bâšu and bāštu; because they look to me similar to Lat. fēstus (and fānum): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/festus#Latin https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fanum#Latin .
Absolutely! :) . And Phaistos reminds the god Hephaistos (Hephaestus), which is connected to Latin Vulcan (seems similar to Velchanios, though it could be just a coincidence). .
I suppose the second meaning is good for Sum. mud (as "tube"); the first one (about the cloth for wounds) fits perhaps to Sum. word mudum [GARMENT] wr. tug2mu-du-um "a garment" Akk. mudû; also another Gr. word μότημα motema means "store of linen"
The part about the "heel" μοττωνῆσαι [mottonesai"] perhaps has something to do with the Halloran's Lexicon entry for mud: "n., heel; handle; a right-angled tool [MUD archaic frequency: 88]. v., to give birth; to be afraid; to frighten (closed container with motion out from)". adj., dark, dim.
Another curious thing is that mud in Sumerian is connected to "creation, birth", yet the long range etymologies of ToB give also this result (MVTV) "die, finish".
mrt is also for "dead"; perhaps it is the kwer / kwel root again and the circular motion (life is death, death is life); kwel for kwil> til, kwer for kwer-t > kṛt- / prt? > mrt? > mut?.
I suppose the second meaning is good for Sum. mud (as "tube"); the first one (about the cloth for wounds) fits perhaps to Sum. word mudum [GARMENT] wr. tug2mu-du-um "a garment" Akk. mudû; also another Gr. word μότημα motema means "store of linen" .
Yes I agree! :) .
mrt is also for "dead"; perhaps it is the kwer / kwel root again and the circular motion (life is death, death is life); kwel for kwil> til, kwer for kwer-t > kṛt- / prt? > mrt? > mut?. .
Yes I think related! :) , the Skt. word comes from mRd crushing , grinding , rubbing , bruising , destroying (ifc. ; cf. %{ari-} , %{cakra-m-} &c.) ; m. grinding , pounding , violent pressure or friction MBh. VarBr2S. (cf. %{graha-m-}) ; acute pain (cf. %{aGga-m-}) ; dispassion L.
This is related : ''From Proto-Indo-European *mr̥d-, grown from *merā-. Cognate with Sanskrit मृध (mṛdha, “fight, battle, war”), Avestan 𐬨𐬀𐬭𐬆𐬛- (marəd-, “to destroy”), Ancient Greek μάρναμαι (márnamai, “to fight, struggle”), Latin Mars (“the god of war”).'' https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D5%B4%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%BF#Old_Armenian
also the Gr. reflexes σμερδνός smerdnos and σμερδαλέος smerdaleos have a meaning "terrible, dreadful". https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CE%BC%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%B4%CE%BD%CF%8C%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
Indic reflexes : ''9890 márdati ʻ pounds, crushes, treads on, squeezes, rubs ʼ MBh. 2. *mr̥ndati. [mr̥dnāˊti (= márdati) MBh., and marmartu RV. (if < °rttu). -- In some NIA. lggs. márdati and *mr̥ndati have coalesced so that it is not possible in all cases to distinguish from which the modern word stems; e.g. Or. māṛibā may be either < mard -- or < mr̥nd -- (with mã̄ -- written as mā -- ); Si. man̆ḍ -- , maḍ -- may be either < mr̥nd -- or < mard -- with nasality from initial m -- . Inter -- dialectal spread of forms accounts for further confusions: e.g. Paš. muṇḍ -- ~ maṇḍ -- are both prob. < *mr̥ndati. Semantically there is also overlap with mánthati. -- √mr̥d] 1. Pa. maddati ʻ crushes, treads on, kneads, jumbles, destroys ʼ; Pk. maddaï, maḍḍaï ʻ crushes, tramples on ʼ; K. mã̄ḍun ʻ to knead, mix ʼ (why long ā?); WPah.bhal. maḍṇū ʻ to thresh ʼ; N. mã̄ṛnu ʻ to rub, tread out ʼ; A. māriba ʻ to thresh, tread out (grain), mix by grinding ʼ; B. māṛā ʻ to pound, thresh ʼ; Or. māṛibā ʻ to press ʼ, (Bāleshwar) māṇḍibā; Mth. māṛab ʻ to knead, shampoo ʼ; Aw.lakh. māṛab ʻ to mix ʼ; H. māṛnā, mã̄ḍnā ʻ to rub, thresh, flatten ʼ (mã̄ḍhnā ʻ id. ʼ X mánthati?). 2. Pk. maṇḍia -- ʻ spread out ʼ? -- Gy. wel. mōr̄ -- ʻ to rub, polish, grind ʼ; Dm. maṇ -- ʻ to rub ʼ; Paš.lauṛ. kuṛ. muṇḍ -- , dar. muṇ -- , weg. muṛ -- , gul. muṇḍal -- tr. ʻ to break ʼ (IIFL iii 3, 123 < múṇṭati), lauṛ. maṇḍ -- ʻ to rub, smear ʼ, kuṛ. mā̆ṇ -- ʻ to thresh, smear ʼ, chil. mēṇ -- ʻ to crush ʼ, ar. mã̄ṛ -- ʻ to rub ʼ; Gaw. mīṇḍemím ʻ I crush, thresh, grind, wash (clothes) ʼ; Kal.rumb. moṇḍ -- ʻ to thresh ʼ, urt. maṇḍ -- ʻ to soften ʼ; Phal. māṇḍ -- ʻ to knead ʼ; K. manḍun ʻ to rub, trample, wash (woollen cloth by kneading it with the feet) ʼ; S. manaṇu ʻ to shampoo, make clothes ready for steaming ʼ; WPah. (Joshi) minṇu ʻ to rub ʼ; Ku. minaṇo ʻ to beat, rub ʼ; Mth. mīṛab ʻ to knead, grind, shampoo ʼ; H. mī˜ṛnā, mī˜ḍ° ʻ to rub with the hands, clean ʼ; M. mã̄dṇẽ ʻ to smear vessels ʼ; Si. man̆ḍinavā, maḍin°, maḍan° ʻ to rub, press, clean rice from the husk ʼ, (inscr.) män̆ḍä absol. ʻ to crush ʼ, maḍavanavā ʻ to prepare a field for planting by buffaloes treading it ʼ (pret. maṇḍā < *man̆ḍvā). -- X mánthati (L. mandhaṇ, P. maddhṇā: cf. H. mã̄ḍhnā in 1) or poss. < mr̥ddhá -- : L.awān. middhaṇ, pp. middhā ʻ to crush ʼ; P. middhṇā, pp. middhā ʻ to stir up, mix, knead (mortar), rumple, tumble (clothes, paper, &c.), spoil by treading on (crops) ʼ. -- X mr̥śáti'' http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.3.soas.337523
About this n in some of these reflexes; I remember also a Sum. word "inda" for "tube" - maybe it is connected with "mud" for tube; perhaps there is also a connextion with kanda / pinda (like a round thing? - a tube or socket is also round).
''About this n in some of these reflexes; I remember also a Sum. word "inda" for "tube" - maybe it is connected with "mud" for tube; perhaps there is also a connextion with kanda / pinda (like a round thing? - a tube or socket is also round).''
Very good idea.
For "rabid", I remember for example that pinda means also "to bite" .
There is a Gr. word ἄμοτος amotos Deriv. unknown. I.raging, savage, Theocr. II.in Hom. as adv. ἄμοτον amoton, insatiably, ἄμ. μεμαώς, striving incessantly; ἄμ. κλαίω I weep continually; τανύοντο they struggled restlessly forwards.
The initial ἄ- perhaps is again drom sm- ; the other part could be connected to μόθος mothos "battle, battle din, fight", according to the lexicon; μόθος mothos, here: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*m%3Aentry+group%3D27%3Aentry%3Dmo%2Fqos
Another crazy idea I had concerning the Sum. mud=words is about the word mudna "spouse"; that if we use a supposed krt/prt for the mud- part, and more precisely a "prt" one, then we could have a word like prt-na, which seems to be close to Gr. παρθένος παρθένος for "young woman, virgin". (etymology unknown).
Well, do you remember Sum. banda "(to be) junior; small; (to be) wild, fierce"? perhaps the same happens also here; maybe there is also a relation to the "rabid" (let's say) words you have posted (if we replace m with p). See this also about some related words in possible related words in "mrt". http://vasco-caucasian.blogspot.gr/2014/07/greek-parthenos-virgin-unmarried-girl.html
The Laconian word παρσένος parsénos instead of παρθένος parthenos ("maiden, virgin") and the possible connection with Sum. mudna "spouse" gave me another crazy idea tonight, Nirjhar.
Concerning Halloran's Sum. mud for "heel": the word for heel in Sanskrit is पार्ष्णि (pā́rṣṇi) f: "the heel; the extremity of the fore-axle to which the outside horses of a four-horse chariot are attached (the two inner horses being harnessed to the धुर् (dhur), or chariot-pole); the rear of an army ; the back; kick; enquiry, asking; a foolish or licentious woman; name of a plant"
From Proto-Indo-European *tpḗrsneh₂ (“heel”). Cognates include Ancient Greek πτέρνη (ptérnē), Latin perna, Gothic 𐍆𐌰𐌹𐍂𐌶𐌽𐌰 (fairzna, “heel”) and Persian پاشنه (pâšne, “heel”).
The pā́rṣ- part of pā́rṣṇi reminded me the pars- part of "parsenos"; since parsenos is the Laconian for "parthenos", then I thought that a "prt" sound corresponded also for the Sum. "mud" word for "heel"; the -ni ending of pā́rṣṇi though would indicate also a prṣ-na/prt-na > mud-na like word. btw a heel is also of round / spherical shape; as it is also the *kwel/ *kwer root ;)
perhaps it is because of this -na ending (like in pā́rṣṇi) that Hesychius gibes this verb μοττωνέω mottoneo "to hit by the heel". Another Sum. mud stump (handle) is also of a round shape. Another object in Halloran is mudla, madlu, mudul, madal = pole; stake; in ePSD is madal [POLE] (5x: Old Babylonian) wr. (ĝeš)madal; (ĝeš)mamadal; ma-ad-li-um "a pole" Akk. mašaddu; makkû; mudulu; muttû. As I was searching Hesychius, I found this word: μόθουρα mothoura, ἡ, A.loom of an oar, Hsch. close to mudul / mudulu. These words of Hesychius seem to be Wanderwoerter (wandering words), I think.
The Laconian word παρσένος parsénos instead of παρθένος parthenos ("maiden, virgin") and the possible connection with Sum. mudna "spouse" gave me another crazy idea tonight, Nirjhar.
The idea is not crazy Kyriakos , its very good ! :D .
These words of Hesychius seem to be Wanderwoerter (wandering words), I think
Well, I'm not sure about the source of these "moth-" or "mot-" Anc. Greek words which seem to fit to some of the meanings of Sum. "mud". Another Spartan word μόθων mothon means: "I.at Lacedaemon, the child of an Helot, brought up as foster-brother of a young Spartan:— since such young Helots were likely to presume, μόθων came to mean an impudent fellow, Ar. II.a rude, licentious dance, Eur., Ar."
About the possible connection between "mud" (pro)creation and "dumu" for child, I was thinking that, if "mud" is really from a **mrt/**prt < **krt, let's say (with a vocalization of "r"), then the dum- of "dumu" ( = child) could have its origin from an exactly opposite process **trm/**trp < **trk which, with a vocalization of "r", seems to be like a "tuk" word resembling Gr. τόκος tokos "child"; it looks also like a TK "thorn cluster".
About the possible connection between "mud" (pro)creation and "dumu" for child, I was thinking that, if "mud" is really from a **mrt/**prt < **krt, let's say (with a vocalization of "r"), then the dum- of "dumu" ( = child) could have its origin from an exactly opposite process **trm/**trp < **trk which, with a vocalization of "r", seems to be like a "tuk" word resembling Gr. τόκος tokos "child"; it looks also like a TK "thorn cluster".
So perhps Sum. mud "joy" (using a reversed process of *mrt/**prt < **krt - meaning a *trm/**trp < **trk one), using the **trp, could be connected, I think, with Gr. τέρπω "I enjoy, I delight": From Proto-Indo-European *terp- (“to satisfy”), cognate with German dürfen (“to need”) and obsolete and dialectal British English tharf (“to need”).
Gr. τρέμω tremo ( = to tremble, to fear, to be afraid), from *trem, is ultimately from *ter: From Proto-Indo-European *trem-, extended form of Proto-Indo-European *ter-. The extended form Proto-Indo-European *tres- also yielded τρέω (tréō, “to dread, to terrify”). Cognate with Latin tremō, Avesta (tərəsaiti), Ancient Greek τρέω (tréō), Old Irish tarrach, Lithuanian trišu, Latvian trisēt, Old Church Slavonic трѧсѫ (tręsǫ) and Sanskrit त्रसति (trasati).
Concerning again mud [RABID] (2x: Old Babylonian) wr. mud6 "rabid", Halloran's lexicon (edition 2006) gives some more meanings:
mud6, mu2 [SAR]: to sing; to blow; to ignite, kindle; to grow, to make grow (tall); to sprout, appear; to be angry, agressive, mad, rabid; to be swollen, inflamed.
In Foxvog's Glossary: mú(d) to grow (up, out), sprout; to ignite; to incite (rarely seen Auslaut /d/, /r/ or /dr/? Cf. OS munu8- mú(d) maltster and Sarg. Adab lú gu4 mú-da cattle raiser)
About mud "to sing" Hesychius has a word μωδεῖ modei = λαλεῖ lalei (speaks), ᾁδει aidei (sings); I take it as similar to Sum. ad "to sing"; Gr. ᾁδω a(i)do or aeido is from *h₂weyd-, an extansion of *weyd- (like Skt. vadati etc); maybe the "m" of this mud stands for the "w". Maybe also this mud for "sing" has a connection with dug = "speak, say" (dug is a "tuk", let's say, like word); also I think that mud for "beer jar" and dug = "(clay) pot" (Akk. karpatu) are somehow related too (look above about mud and dumu etc).
About Sum. dug, wr. dug3; ze2-eb; du-uq "(to be) good; (to be) sweet; goodness, good (thing)" Akk. ţābu, we have discussed at one of Giacomo's posts about the possibility of a **dlk origin (like in Latin dulcis:
From Proto-Indo-European *dl̥kú- (“sweet”). Cognate with Ancient Greek γλυκύς (glukús). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dulcis
I would like to add another suggestion using a similar pattern; more precisely a **trp one, (similar to *terp) for this Sum. word:
dub [GO AROUND] (30x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. dab6; dub "to go around, encircle, turn; to search; to tarry" Akk. lawû; sahāru
comparing to Gr. τρόπος tropos (like in "tropical" etc); from τρέπω *trep "turn": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CF%81%CE%AD%CF%80%CF%89#Ancient_Greek etchttps://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%80%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
It is compared usually with Skt. trapate (something like "turn (away) because of shame") http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=trapat&direct=se
the Greek word entrope εντροπή means also "shame", "turning towards"; modern greek ντροπή. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3De)ntroph%2F similar to "entropy" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/entropy http://www.wordreference.com/gren/%CE%BD%CF%84%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%80%CE%AE
A similar root is the one of Latin "turba" Probably from Ancient Greek τύρβη (túrbē, “tumult, disorder, turmoil”), from Proto-Indo-European *(s)twer-, *(s)tur- (“to rotate, swirl, twirl, move around”); related to English storm. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/turba#Latin http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dtu%2Frbh
Maybe comparable (using the **trb type) to Sum. dub [TREMBLE] (186x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. dub2; dub "to tremble, make tremble; to push away, down; to smash, abolish" Akk. napāşu
Also I would say that a dlk** root for "sweet", if inversed, looks like the krt like of Drav. kuruti etc and finally the "mlt" of *melit for "honey". Yet, as I've said before maybe this inversion is more about some evolvement of a reduplicated ancient root like **kwe (like kwVkw-), which seems to have to do with "circle, round, running, flowing" etc (flowing here as of a thick liquid).
About Skt. trapate Mayrhofer thinks of a TRAP Skrt. root (from *trep); yet he wonders about a possible connection to Latin trepidus "nervous, jumpy, agitated, perilous, alarming", from Proto-Indo-European *terkʷ- (“to turn”). See torqueō. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/trepidus
a reduplicated ancient root like **kwe (like kwVkw-), which seems to have to do with "circle, round, running, flowing" etc (flowing here as of a thick liquid).
I suspect similar Kyriakos ! :) .
Mayrhofer thinks of a TRAP Skrt. root (from *trep); yet he wonders about a possible connection to Latin trepidus "nervous, jumpy, agitated, perilous, alarming", from Proto-Indo-European *terkʷ- (“to turn”).
There are also some similar roots (like *trep) in Greek:
For example, the one concerning this word: στρέφω (stréphō): "to twist, to turn" From Proto-Indo-European *strebʰ-; compare Proto-Germanic *struppōną (“to twist, writhe”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%84%CF%81%CE%AD%CF%86%CF%89 στροφή (strophḗ) means "turning, revolving, twisting"
The comparison I am thinking now, concerning the notion of "twisting, turning", is with this Sum. word:
dub [KNEE] (55x: ED IIIb, Old Babylonian) wr. dub3; ze2-eb "knee"
Compared to a root like *strobʰ- of strophe, but possibly without the initial s, like *(s)trobʰ-, so like a **trp (with vocalisation of r), resembling also the trop- of τρόπος tropos.
Note also that the ze-eb (Emesal) type looks like the ze-eb for dug "sweet, good" etc.
Hi Nirjhar, Also the comparison of καταστροφή "cata-strophy" with "dub [TREMBLE] (186x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. dub2; dub "to tremble, make tremble; to push away, down; to smash, abolish" Akk. napāşu", concerning the notion "to push away, down; to smash, abolish" (like "turning down" looks also good, I think.
Without being sure about it, look now an unexpected comparison (concerning the "round" notion). with Turkish top = ball. From Ottoman Turkish طوپ (top), from Old Turkic tōp, tolp.
which made me think again of kanduka etc; :) btw, do you think that the IE word for "knee" ( < *ǵónu) could be connected to some root similar to *ken? (since a knee seems both "pointed" and "round"); at least some of the reflexes seem like *ken. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/%C7%B5%C3%B3nu
:D About kanduka and "ken again - that Old Turkic tōp, tolp remindem me also "τολύπη [tolype] “clew, ball of wool for spinning” and the clearly related Luwian/Hittite taluppa/i “lump, clod”"; the thinking of *ken compared to Sum. kinda "hairdresser, barber" made me think about a hair/wool-ball :D.
About *ken (and something like **tlp or **trp), mind also that in Greek the main verb for "rub, gnaw, grind" etc is τρῑ́βω (trī́bō). Ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *terh₁- (“to rub”). Cognate with Latin tero.
Also "waste, ravage, wear out": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CF%81%CE%AF%CE%B2%CF%89\ Many root are seem to be from *ter; from *ter is also Skt. taruna etc, a word we have been talking about at Giacomo's posts; and *ken also is for "young" etc.
Yeah, why not, Nirjhar? :D I think I had a bit "homo ludens" mood today, sorry :) I think that if we put *ter and *ken together (Starostin thought that -ken, as a root for "ashes", is just an extension of some other root - az-ken); also thinking about a reduplicated root, we could have a **ter-ken or **trkn and (on the opposite way) a **ken-ter or **kntr; the second one seems to be like kentron and the **kwenth- root we assume; the other one reminded me Tarquin (the Superbus), Etruscan Tarhuna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Tarquinius_Superbus which reminds "pride" maybe also the opposite "shame, modesty" (like in Tamil eḷku (veḷki-) w"to be ashamed, be coy, bashful, fear, shudder, be perplexed"; and Kannada derivate beḷkane "to turn pale through fear" also cretan Velkhanos etc. Don't pay much attention to this, though.
kind looks also like inda "tube" and Latin "tuba" looks like this dub words (it can be though totally unrelated); anyway, according to Wikipedia tuba is "Possibly connected to tibia (“shinbone, reed-pipe”) with similarities in meaning and form." https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tuba#Latin
Concerning tibia > "Meaning may have evolved from "stalk, reed pipe" to shinbone, the latter being used by Pliny and later authors; flutes were originally made from shinbones. Possibly connected to Ancient Greek σίφων (síphōn, “siphon, tube”) reflecting a hypothetical *twi- root, and the irregular forms suggest a non-Indo-European loan source. There are no solid IE cognates outside of the Greek word.
On the other hand, inda "tube" has the equivalent mud "tube, socket" which in Akkadian is "uppu"; and Akk. uppu seems like Akk. ţuppu "(clay) tablet, document, letter" which is a rendering of Sum. dub with the same meaning; also Sum. dub "tablet" etc seems like Gr. τύπος typos and Gr. typos looks like στύπος stypos, meaning "stem, stump, block"; and another Sum. mud means "stump".
also Sum. dub "tablet" etc seems like Gr. τύπος typos and Gr. typos looks like στύπος stypos, meaning "stem, stump, block"; and another Sum. mud means "stump". .
About the possible connection to Sum. inda "tube" with a *ken root (like the one we have compared with Sum. kinda), I suspect that the followung ken root perhaps is involved:
*k̂en- English "empty / void, puny" (only greek und armenian)
maybe the k̂ (instead of just k) has something to do with the (assumed) dissapearance of k from a prievious form k̂inda; perhpas it was k̂inda > sinda (like the armenian), then hinda > inda? Not sure about that. But certainly a "tube" is round and void / empty.
A similar word (yet belonging to a different root) is Skrt. śūnya "blank, deserted empty, void, destitute of".
Formed from Proto-Indo-European *ḱówH-, related to Latin cavus (“hollow”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%B6%E0%A5%82%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF#Sanskrit
Latin cavus is from here: From Proto-Indo-European *ḱówHwos (“cavity”) (compare Irish cúas (“hollow, cavity”), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱewH- (“to swell”) (compare Tocharian B kor (“throat”), Albanian cup (“odd, uneven”), Ancient Greek κύαρ (kúar, “eye of needle, earhole”), Old Armenian սոր (sor, “hole”), Sanskrit शून्य (śūnya, “empty, barren, zero”)) + *-wós.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cavus#Latin
Mayrhofer also has *ḱuH-n- as the root of śūnya.
Do you think we can compare it to the folowing Sum. word?
sug [EMPTY] (863x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian) wr. sug4 "(to be) empty; (to be) naked; to cut clear, strip" Akk. erû; urrû; riāqu
since we have concluded, at Giacomo's posts, that there are also "satem" forms among the Sumerian; here we could have, maybe, sug < *ḱuH, with a s < ḱ and a fortition of H to g; there is also a writing su [logogramm = sug4 (su3)].
Same root at ToB: Proto-IE: *k'awǝ- Meaning: hollow Old Indian: śū́na- n. `emptiness, lack', śūnyá- `empty, void' Avestan: sūra- m. `Loch, lacuna' Other Iranian: NPers sūrāx `Loch' Armenian: sun, sor `Loch', soil `Höhle' Old Greek: *kówo-s: pl. kóoi̯ `cavity in the earth' Hsch.; kôi̯lo-, aeol. and att. kóilo- 'hohl, augehöhlt, geräumig, tief', kō̂o-s m. `Höhle, Gefängnis', kǘar n. `Nadelöhr, Ohröffnung' Slavic: *sūjь(jь) Baltic: *čā̂w-ā̂ (2) f. (? *čeuw-ā̂) Latin: cavus `hohl, nach innen gewölbt, konkav', cavum, -ī n. `Höhlung'; Rom *covus: Port covo `hohl' etc.; caverna f. `Höhle, Loch, Grotte; Himmelsgewölbe' Celtic: *kou̯io- > MIr cūa `hohl', cūass `Höhle', Bret kéo `Grotte' Albanian: ɵeɫɛ `tief' Russ. meaning: полый References: WP I 365 f
Also Akkadian uppu looks like Sum. ub [CAVITY] (6x: Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. ub4 "cavity" Akk. huppu and huppu seeems to be a variant of uppu: ḫuppu (2) 1) a socket , a hole , a pit , a cavity ; 2) OB,MB (in fileds) : a snake-hole (?) ; 3) Sumerian origin
from a prievious form k̂inda; perhpas it was k̂inda > sinda (like the armenian), then hinda > inda?
Interesting :) .
sug [EMPTY] (863x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian) wr. sug4 "(to be) empty; (to be) naked; to cut clear, strip" Akk. erû; urrû; riāqu
since we have concluded, at Giacomo's posts, that there are also "satem" forms among the Sumerian; here we could have, maybe, sug < *ḱuH, with a s < ḱ and a fortition of H to g; there is also a writing su [logogramm = sug4 (su3)]. .
I think its good ! :) .
Sum. mud "stump" could be an inversed (s)tVm ( = mYt) form.
Yes ! :) .
Also Akkadian uppu looks like Sum. ub [CAVITY] (6x: Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. ub4 "cavity" Akk. huppu and huppu seeems to be a variant of uppu: ḫuppu (2) 1) a socket , a hole , a pit , a cavity ; 2) OB,MB (in fileds) : a snake-hole (?) ; 3) Sumerian origin.
There is also KU [HOLE] wr. KU "hole" Akk. miqqu, that you have compared to this same root *ḱuH; the capital letters at this KU word indicate that it's not clear whether it was pronounced really "ku"; yet I think this might be the case; it's also an indication of both centum and satem versions existing inside Sumerian, even for the same root.
About the possibility of the inversion of a word, here of a mud word, it is possible, I think, that this is a result of some reduplication process: like mud > mud-mud > mudumudu resulting to dumudumu > dum-dum / dum / dub; something like that (or you can imagine the opposite process).
About the possibility of an inversion in "mud" words; today I have another idea, concerning again mud "rabid"; as it is stated also in Halloran's Lexicon, this word is written as SAR, which is the logogramm of sar "to run"; so one can say it's like a rushing / running behaviour, like the one of some wild animal attacking.
The curious thing I've noticed about this mud "rabid", especially if we assume a "mord-" word, like in Latin mordeo, is that, when inverted, it leads to a "drom-" word; which is identical to the root of Greek δρόμος dromos for "running, race":"
From Proto-Indo-European *drem- (“to run”) + -ος (-os); cognate with Sanskrit द्राति (drāti, “to run”) and Proto-Germanic *tradō (“way, track, spoor”). Related to δραμεῖν (drameîn), a suppletive aorist of τρέχω (trékhō, “to run”).
It' ultimately from one *der. In Sankrit the roots are DRA / DRAM. Skt. drāti "to run, make haste": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF#Sanskrit From Proto-Indo-European *drā-, *der- (“to walk, step, run”). Cognate with Proto-Germanic *tradō (“way, track, spoor”), Ancient Greek δρόμος (drómos, “race, running”) and perhaps Middle Armenian արտորալ (artoral, “to hurry, to make haste”).
Of course in Greek δρόμος dromos sounds also very close to τρόμος tromos "terror, extreme fear" from τρέμω tremo and *trem (about the other mud for "fear").
btw about Sum. kaš [RUNNER] (1809x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. kaš4; lu2kaš4 "runner, trotter, messenger; to run" Akk. lasāmu; šānû
do you think that the Skrt. word kāṣṭha "raceground" etc could be connected?
Nice again! :) . Its from ''kas 1 cl. 1. P. %{kasati} (Dha1tup. xx , 30) , to go , move , approach Naigh. ii , 14 ; (perf. %{cakAsa} = %{zuzubhe} Comm.) to beam , shine Nalo7d. ii , 2: Intens. %{canIkasIti} , %{canIkasyate} Pa1n2. 7-4 , 84 Vop. xxi , 10 (cf. %{kaz} , %{kaMs} , %{niH-kas} , and %{vi-kas}.)'' Probably ,
There is also ''kaS cl. 1. P. A1. %{kaSati} , %{-te} , to rub , scratch , scrape Pa1n2. 3-4 , 34 Naish.: A1. to rub or scratch one's self ChUp. (pr. p. A1. %{kaSamANa}) Vait. ; to itch (A1.) BhP. ; to rub with a touchstone , test , try Ka1s3. on Pa1n2. 7-2 , 22 ; to injure , hurt , destroy , kill Dha1tup. xvii , 34 ; to leap ib. xvii , 77 (v.l.): Caus. P. %{kASayati} , to hurt ib. xxxii , 121 (v.l.) ; [cf. Gk. $ , $.] &82557[265 ,2]''
The notion about "rub, scratch, itch" etc seems good; there is also a Sum. kindu [PATH] wr. ki-in-du "path" Akk. ?
recalling a *ken root again; I think that the notion is just like in Greek τρίβος tribos (from τρίβω tribo = to rub) meaning mostly "worn or beaten track, path" (but also rubbing, socket, friction-joint; delay and bodily exercise.)
The notion about "rub, scratch, itch" etc seems good; there is also a Sum. kindu [PATH] wr. ki-in-du "path" Akk. ?
Yes interesting :) .
recalling a *ken root again; I think that the notion is just like in Greek τρίβος tribos (from τρίβω tribo = to rub) meaning mostly "worn or beaten track, path" (but also rubbing, socket, friction-joint; delay and bodily exercise.)
I checked it at Mayrhofer's Lexicon, and he seems to agree that kaS about "rub, scratch, itch" is from karS "draw, tract, plough" etc; so we have another root with a "hidden" R.
I think karS is from *kwel [like *kwer], with words like cárati, calati carítra- foot karṣū́- furrow, kárṣati, kr̥ṣáti `ploughing etc', av. karša- m. n. `furrow', karšaiti `to drug a furrow; but you tell me :)
BTW karS looks like *k̑ers- 'to run, course' https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0947
Maybe this last root is a borrowing from Indic to the other branches. :)
I checked it at Mayrhofer's Lexicon, and he seems to agree that kaS about "rub, scratch, itch" is from karS "draw, tract, plough" etc; so we have another root with a "hidden" R. Okay.
I think karS is from *kwel [like *kwer], with words like cárati, calati carítra- foot karṣū́- furrow, kárṣati, kr̥ṣáti `ploughing etc', av. karša- m. n. `furrow', karšaiti `to drug a furrow; but you tell me :)
BTW karS looks like *k̑ers- 'to run, course' https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0947 I agree with you! :D
The root is (our very well known) *kes in IE. http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=1559&root=config
Another similar Nostratic root: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=+++3&root=config
leads to another turkish *KAč- "run, flee" http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2falt%2fturcet&text_number=1380&root=config
Anyway, inside IE maybe *kes is connected too, I mean.
At Hesychius there is a word κασάνεις = kasaneis = ἀνύεις anyeis. A Laconian (Spartan) word. ἀνύεις anyeis means "you reach something, you finish something, you come to an end about something etc"; obviously the word is κασάνω kasano.
You have posted also at Giacomo's second post another satem proposal about Sum. sar from *kers (or *kars), I remembered now that Giacomo has already said that this root could be the the k'war root of carati, cakra, kars- etc; about sar proposed the *ser / *sar root of sarati "to run, flow, move". Maybe, though, *sar is indeed from *kers / *kars root, as you said; for example there is a word σάρσαι sarsai (most probably of Illyrian origin) meaning "carriages".
About kindu "path", there is also a Sumerian etymology, given in Halloran's Lexicon (edition 2006): ki-in-du; in-di3; ki-en-du = stretch of road; way, course, route; river bed; typical behaviour ('ground' + i3, 'impersonal verbal conjugation prefix', + 3rd person animate pronominal element + 'to walk' = 'the ground that one walks'; Akk., malaku(m) I.
About Sum kaš (Halloran has also kas) "runner, messenger, to run etc" and kāṣṭha etc, I remembered now a curious xi", let's say, Greek word, that is ξουθός xouthos "rapidly moving to and fro, nimble", also "chirruping or trilling larynx of the nightingale", "(of the bee), either nimble, or humming", "(of the sound) produced by a trilling larynx or vibrating wing", also "golden yellow" or even "red blood".
Maybe xouthos is related to the same notion of "run, swift" as kaš and kāṣṭha; maybe even the "golden yellow" is connected to the colour of the other "kaš = bier, urine"! :D.
this κασάνω kasano reminded me the kasati "to go, move, approach" you have posted. Yes good comparison :).
for example there is a word σάρσαι sarsai (most probably of Illyrian origin) meaning "carriages". Of course .
Maybe xouthos is related to the same notion of "run, swift" as kaš and kāṣṭha; maybe even the "golden yellow" is connected to the colour of the other "kaš = bier, urine"! :D.
So, perhaps *k(r)s and *kes are somehow connected due to the related notions of "move, run, path etc" and "rub", since by moving / running one is rubbing the ground; *kes is also used in Sanskrit and Greek for words like ksura / xyron for "razor". Another word related to Skrt. carati / caritra etc, as I have already proposed, is Sum. ĝiri "foot, path":
ĝiri [FOOT] (10822x: Lagash II, Ur III) wr. ĝiri3; me-ri; ĝiri16 "via, by means of, under the authority of someone; foot; path" Akk. šēpu
but also "razor, dagger" etc (due to a notion of "rub, scratch etc", like in *ken): ĝiri [DAGGER] (198x: ED IIIb, Ebla, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ĝiri2; urudĝiri2; me2-er; me-er; me-ri "razor; sword, dagger" Akk. naglabu; patru
So, perhaps *k(r)s and *kes are somehow connected due to the related notions of "move, run, path etc" and "rub", since by moving / running one is rubbing the ground
The Gr. word κῑνέω (kīnéō) for "set in motion, move, stir" etc seems also similar to *ken for rub etc (I'm trying to imagine a connection between the roots).
From Proto-Indo-European *ḱey-. Compare κίω (kíō, “I go”) and κίνυμαι (kínumai, “I go, move”), Latin cieo "move".
Halloran adds another meaning for Sum. ĝiri: ĝiri5, ĝir5[KAŠ4]: n., refugee, stranger. v., to run, trot; to seek refuge. ĝiri16, ĝir16 [ĜÌR×KÁR]: fortress, refuge.
Without being sure about it, that reminded me a Gr. word κρησφύγετον krēsphúgeton "a place of refuge, retreat, resort": http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dkrhsfu%2Fgeton
The second part of this word -φυγ- -phug- is the same (or similar) with Latin "fuga" for "flee, escape etc". The first one κρησ- (krēs-), is uncertain; maybe connected το krs?.
Anyway, sometimes this krēs- is compared to the word for Crete Κρήτη. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%9A%CF%81%CE%AE%CF%84%CE%B7
The second part of this word -φυγ- -phug- is the same (or similar) with Latin "fuga" for "flee, escape etc". The first one κρησ- (krēs-), is uncertain; maybe connected το krs?.
Reminding also Sum. kar [FLEE] (158x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. kar "to flee; to take away (by force), remove; to deprive; to save" Akk. ekēmu; eţēru; mašā'u; nērubu. I think we have talked about it before, though I am not sure for that.
I remembered now that Whittaker has compared Sum. karkid "prostitute" Akk. harīmtu to the already mentioned *parikeh₂ (“concubine, wanton woman”), related to Avestan (pairikā, “demonic courtesan”) and Parthian parik.
Gr. πρός pros here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%82 since Gr. προσφεύγω prospheugo means "to flee for refuge to": http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dprosfeu%2Fgw
Now, if par- < ? > kar- is valid, then karkid reminds me of this Gr. word:
παράκοιτις parakoitis "a wife, spouse" fem. of παρακοίτης" > παρακοίτης parakoites "A.one who lies beside, bedfellow, husband"
from παρά para "next to" and κοίτη koite "bed"; παράκοιτις parakoitis translated as "bedfellow, one who lies beside".
παρά para "beside, next to" fro *per "around, through": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%AC https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/per
κοίτη koite "bed" is from κεῖμαι http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0073%3Aentry%3Dkoi%2Fth
κεῖμαι keimai "to lie" etc is "from Proto-Indo-European *ḱéytor, from *ḱey- (“to lie down”). Cognates include Latin cunae, cīvis, Old Armenian սէր (sēr), Hittite 𒆠𒀉𒋫𒊑, 𒆠𒀉𒁕𒊑 (kittari), and Sanskrit शेते (śḗtē)."
kid, wr. (gi)kid; kid means "a (reed) mat" (Akk. kītu), fits also good for "bed". Also, we have compered in Giacomo posts Sum. ki "ground, earth") with *ḱey-, κεῖμαι keimai etc, I think you have found also some satem word from this root.
About *parikeh₂, there is at Halloran's Lexiconsome other readings of karkid:
one is as "munus-kar-ke4; (munus)kar-kid: prostitute (B. Alster reads munus-kar-ke4") ('marketplace' + 'reed mat')." kar-ke4 looks good for parikeh₂.
karkid has also a second reading as "karekid" (referred in 2006 edition); Halloran;s etymology is from kar = marketplace and kid = reed mat; Akkadian karkittu(m) 'prostitute', harimtu(m), '(temple) prostitute'). karekid looks also good for the proposed comparisons.
I am wandering now wether pallake and parikeh are connected etymologically or not. As for the root *per (an *ter btw), I think that they have evolved from a **ker (kwer); one can say also **kar (par and tar). But certainly I would say that a "per se" root *parikeh₂ seems quite unlikely.
Also Halloran interprates very interestingly the writing of Sum. kar "harbor etc", as TE.A ( the logogramms for "near" and "water"); that's good about the notion of "near"; also, maybe this implies (that's an assumption of mine) that the "a" water was initially more like "ar" and this r was silenced later, for some reason; or maybe it was pronounced lightely like in French. I was thinking about a comparison of a; if from a(r) to Skrt. vāri "water".
Yeah, vAri is said to be from ''vAr n. (said to be fr. 1. %{vR}) water RV. &c. &c. (n. pl. once in BhP. %{vAras} , as if m. or f. ; %{vArAM@nidhiH} , `" receptacle of waters "' , the ocean Prab.) ; stagnant water , a pond RV. iv , 19 , 4 ; viii , 98 , 8 ; ix , 112 , 4 ; m. (?) a protector , defender , i , 132 , 3 ; x , 93 , 3. [Cf. , accord. to some , Gk. $ ; Lat. &285912[943 ,1] {urina} , {urinari}.]'' https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/urina#Etymology https://www.etymonline.com/word/urine
Root from here: https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0136
vāri here: From Proto-Indo-Iranian [Term?], from Proto-Indo-European *ur, *uh₁r-. Compare Avestan (vār), Latin ūrīna, ūrīnārī, Ancient Greek οὖρον (oûron), ούρα (oúra), Old English ūrig (“moist”), Old Prussian wurs (“pool”), perhaps Old Armenian գայռ (gayṙ, “mud”).
Another Sum. "a" is a[ARM] (6115x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. a2 "arm; labor; wing; horn; side; strength; wage; power" Akk. ahu; idu and one could say that "arm" fits well too (from h₂er-):
Especially since Whittaker thinks that hamun [HARMONY] (12x: ED IIIa, Old Babylonian) wr. ha-mun "harmony" Akk. mithurtu is of the same origin with ἁρμονίᾱ (harmoníā) "harmony", even without a "r".
Another Sum. "a" is a[ARM] (6115x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. a2 "arm; labor; wing; horn; side; strength; wage; power" Akk. ahu; idu and one could say that "arm" fits well too (from h₂er-):
Yes very nice! :D . Especially since Whittaker thinks that hamun [HARMONY] (12x: ED IIIa, Old Babylonian) wr. ha-mun "harmony" Akk. mithurtu is of the same origin with ἁρμονίᾱ (harmoníā) "harmony", even without a "r". . Yes its quite possible , I think .
Voncerning "strength" and "power", it fits also well for Arya (one of the of the proposed roots is h₂er-) :) Also the "horn" to latin aries "ram" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/aries#Latin :D
from ἄρνυμαι arnymai lengthd. form of αἴρομαι airomai used only in pres. and imperf. "to receive for oneself, reap, win, gain, earn, esp. of honour or reward"
endib [COOK] (1x: ED IIIa) wr. endib "cook" Akk. nuhatimmu I think that the "normal" Sum. word for "cook" is "muhaldim". This "endib" must be from en = "master" and "dib" which is not clear what it is.
The suggestion is for this IE root:
*deh₂p- "to sacrifice, to lose" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/deh%E2%82%82p-
Extension of *deh₂- (“to divide”); from this it's Latin daps = A sacrificial or solemn feast, religious banquet. A meal, banquet, feast.
daps: From Proto-Indo-European *dh₂ps (“portion, sacrificial meal”). Cognate with Ancient Greek δαπάνη (dapánē, “expenditure”), δάπτω (dáptō, “I devour”), Old Armenian տաւն (tawn, “feast”), Old Norse tafn (“sacrifice”). Akin to damnum (“loss, expense”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/daps#Latin
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/daps#Latin
Another Greek root has been also compared to this root: δεῖπνον deipnon "meal".
*deh₂- means “to divide”; and, according to Halloran, the other Sum. word for "(chief) cook" = "muhaldim" is from "mu" = "to mill, chop, grind, burn" (or "mu" = woman) + hal "to divide, portion" + dim "to fashion, create".
Note also that in the Akkadian form of this same word as "nuhattimmu" we have a loss of l (of muhaldim); this is another indication of a l/r loss sometimes in these languages, I guess.
Another extension of *deh₂ (“to share, divide”) is *deh₂y- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/deh%E2%82%82y-
*deh₂y-[1]: to share, divide, with derived terms like Greek δαίς (daís), δαῖσις (daîsis), δαιτύς (daitús), δαιτυμών (daitumṓn), δαιτρός (daitrós), δαιτρόν (daitrón), all having to do with feast - banquet etc, like δαίς (daís) "banquet, feast" from δαίνῡμι (daínūmi, “to feast”): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%CE%B1%CE%AF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
Another word from this root is δαίμων (daímōn) "god, goddess quotations, divine power, deity quotations, guardian spirit (Latin genius), and so one's fate, destiny, fortune etc".
From δαίομαι (daíomai, “to divide”) + -μων (-mōn), from Proto-Indo-European *deh₂-i- (“to divide, cut”). For similar semantic development compare Old Persian (baga, “god”), Sanskrit भग (bhága, “dispenser, patron”) (usually applied to gods) beside Avestan (baga-, “part”) and Sanskrit भजति (bhájati, “to divide, apportion”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%CE%B1%CE%AF%CE%BC%CF%89%CE%BD#Ancient_Greek
The root of bhág and bhájati, “to divide, apportion” is bʰeh₂g- (or bʰag-) "to divide, distribute, allot" : https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/b%CA%B0eh%E2%82%82g-
I think that one similar (not exactly matched though) Sumerian word with *bʰag- "to divide, distribute, allot" seems to this: ba [ALLOT] (839x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. ba "to divide into shares, share, halve; to allot" Akk. qiāšu; zâzu (As if there was some arckaic root like "ba" and this "bʰag-" is a kind of its extension -like bʰa-g- as with *deh₂- and *deh₂p- ).
I think that one similar (not exactly matched though) Sumerian word with *bʰag- "to divide, distribute, allot" seems to this: ba [ALLOT] (839x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. ba "to divide into shares, share, halve; to allot" Akk. qiāšu; zâzu (As if there was some arckaic root like "ba" and this "bʰag-" is a kind of its extension -like bʰa-g- as with *deh₂- and *deh₂p- ).
Another Gr. word, similar -in meaning and form- to δάπτω dáptō “devour” is κάπτω káptō, "to gulp down":
From Proto-Indo-European *kh₂p-yé-ti, ye-present from the root *keh₂p- (“seize, grab”). Cognates include Old English hebban and habban (English heave and have), Latin capiō, and Old Armenian խափանեմ (xapʿanem).
As you remember, there is also a Sum. word dab [SEIZE] (8723x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. dab5; dab; dab5-dab5; dabx(|LAGAB×GUD|) "to seize, take, hold; to bind; to envelop, overwhelm; to choose (by extispicy); to accept; to take charge of" Akk. sahāpu; tamāhu; kamû; şabātu.
So I'm thinking that "sharing and seizing" is the same thing (one gives - the other takes), and are both connected with food, like δάπτω dáptō “devour” and κάπτω káptō, meaning the same thing.
Also, concerning the Sum - IE comparison, Sum. dab looks morphologically similar to the root of Lat. daps, yet semantically is close to the root of Lat. capio. Maybe these two roots *kh₂p and *deh₂p share a common origin?
It is also connected (inevitably, I think) to our conversation at the second column of this post (on October 15th) about Latin capio and Sum. dab etc; and I remembered now again nagara, because at the beginning of this post you made a reference about the verb gara "to devour" etc :D
So, imagine something like: "we are all united in a house (maybe a sacred one like a temple, also most probably in a circle), eating - enjoying the meal (perhaps after some sacrifice - most probably in a feast), after sharing and grasping / taking the food".
It could be also connected to δάπτω, I think. On the other hand the possibly connected δρέπω drepo means "to pluck, cull, Lat. carpo" - also a kind of "grasping, seizing"; the difference between capio and carpo I think lies to this "r"; δάπτω and its root *deh₂-p-t could be also from a root like "δṛ-π-τω" with a vocalisation of r; δρέπω is said to be ultimately from *der "to split" etc (*derp- < dr-ep < dr < *der - again a p extension.)
On the other hand carpo is from *kerp; ultimately from *(s)ker: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/kerp-
Also, Gr. καρπός karpos "fruit, harvest" (from "(s)ker-p) etc and καρπός karpos "wrist" (from (s)kwer-p "to turn") are identical; so, we are returning always to a kind of **kwar root with several alterations / modifications and extensions.
So, imagine something like: "we are all united in a house (maybe a sacred one like a temple, also most probably in a circle), eating - enjoying the meal (perhaps after some sacrifice - most probably in a feast), after sharing and grasping / taking the food".
That's a beautiful notion Kyriakos! :) .
It could be also connected to δάπτω, I think. On the other hand the possibly connected δρέπω drepo means "to pluck, cull, Lat. carpo" - also a kind of "grasping, seizing"; the difference between capio and carpo I think lies to this "r"; δάπτω and its root *deh₂-p-t could be also from a root like "δṛ-π-τω" with a vocalisation of r; δρέπω is said to be ultimately from *der "to split" etc (*derp- < dr-ep < dr < *der - again a p extension.)
Yes .
Also, Gr. καρπός karpos "fruit, harvest" (from "(s)ker-p) etc and καρπός karpos "wrist" (from (s)kwer-p "to turn") are identical; so, we are returning always to a kind of **kwar root with several alterations / modifications and extensions.
Hi Nirjhar, Another Gr. word about meal etc is δόρπον dorpon: in Hom. the evening meal, whether called dinner or supper, Lat. coena:—later, generally, a meal, Hhymn. deriv. uncertain http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Ddo%2Frpon
One could say it's from a kind of **derp root, resembling to *drep; I think it could be also connected with *dehp (maybe as a kind of **drp?), which might be connected with *der. Also, as an outcome of what I have mentioned above, there could be also a connection between *(s)kwer-p "to turn" and *drep, and this assumed *derp could match better, I think > maybe as a kind of an iranian style d < gw or kw, as the ones we have been talking about before.
Also, about the possible connection of "turning" and "meal": Halloran has another reading of the word for "cook" as: endub, endib: cook (en, 'lord' + dub, 'to move in a circle, shake')[ENDIB archaic frequency: 6]
This *drep /*derp reminds me this Sanskrit word : ''darpaNa m. (g. %{nandy-Adi}) `" causing vanity "' , a mirror Hariv. 8317 R. ii S3ak. &c. ; ifc. `" Mirror "' (in names of works) e.g. %{AtaGka-} , %{dAna-} , %{sAhitya-} ; = %{dAna-} Smr2itit. iv ; N. of a measure (in music) ; of a mountain (seat of Kubera) , Ka1IP. ; of Siva MBh. xiii , 1194 ; n. the eye L. ; repetition VarBr2S. iii , 11 Sch. ; kindling W. ; Nom. P. %{-Nati} , to represent a mirror.''
Very interesting :) the notion of "vanity, pride, kindling" could be connected, I think, to a notion of "burning, consuming". There is in Greek another word δαίω daio (identical with δαίω for "sharing") meaning "burn"; compared usually to Skt. dunóti 'burn'.
If δαίω for sharing etc, could be connected to a **drep / *derp ultimately, maybe darpa could be connected, too (I mean, maybe the two δαίω verbs could share a common origin, if not being the same ("burn" fits also well for cooking, imo).
the comparison of dunoti and δαίω daio for "burning" here; it's another root dāu-, dǝu-, dū̆- in Pokorny (maybe also connexted to deH?):
the notion of "vanity, pride, kindling" could be connected, I think, to a notion of "burning, consuming". There is in Greek another word δαίω daio (identical with δαίω for "sharing") meaning "burn"; compared usually to Skt. dunóti 'burn'.
Very interesting , yes :) . the comparison of dunoti and δαίω daio for "burning" here; it's another root dāu-, dǝu-, dū̆- in Pokorny (maybe also connexted to deH?)
Very nice :) .
In Greek there is also a verb θάλπω (thálpō) "I warm up, I heat", with unknown etymology.
Yeah, there is also a very interesting alternative comparison of Gr. δόρπον dorpon "meal, dinner" to Alb. darkë "supper, dinner, evening meal, feast etc":
From Proto-Albanian *darkā, from Proto-Indo-European *dorkw-o-. Cognate to Ancient Greek δόρπον (dórpon, “supper, dinner; evening”). Has entered the declension of the feminine ā-stems. According to A. Lubotsky and M. de Vaan, considering the distribution of the term, both Greek and Albanian strongly suggest borrowings from an old Balkan substrate source.[1]
zabar [BRONZE] (810x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. zabar; zabar3 "(to be) bright, pure; arrowhead; weapon; metal mirror; (to be) shiny; measuring vessel made of bronze; a metal bowl; bronze"
We have discussed it, I think, but not sure , if the above can be fitted into our current focus :).
Yes, I was thinking also (looking at the comparisons of δαίω "burn" above) about Sum. tab [BURN] (13x: Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. tab; tab2 "to burn, fire; to dye (red); to brand, mark" Akk. hamāţu; šamātu; şarāpu.
On the other hand, about *derḱ-, there is a word δράκος drakos, which means "eye"; but another δράκος drakos means also "handful"; from δράσσομαι drassomai, "to grasp" (I think from a root *dregh-, like "drachma"). https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0348
so, we have another connected word for grasp, seize etc. That's why I think mant times that there is some archaic word like a reduplication of kwe(r)kw-e(r) for such roots.
There is also an Albanian word tokë f "land, earth, world; ground, floor" (alternative form trokë), which is compared to greek topos topos "place":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tok%C3%AB
A substrate word, close to Ancient Greek τόπος (tópos, “place”) (cf. darkë vs. δόρπον (dórpon, “supper, dinner; evening”), bajgë vs. βολβός (volvós, “bulb”) etc.), with a proto-form *tò-kʷV- or *tòw-kʷV- (compare the second part of ndërtoj). The alternative form trokë has probably been influenced by truall, plural troje "land, place". An ancient loan from a substrate source, close to Hittite (tēkan), [script needed] (tagnās) has also been proposed based on phonetic grounds.
I think that the alternative trokë reminds in form the Gr. τρόπος tropos "turning", "way" etc and *trep. The connection with tēkan also interesting.
2,273 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 600 of 2273 Newer› Newest»Of course it looks related !. :)
In Turkish there is a similar sounded word balık "fish", which I don't know if it's really connected; maybe from a meaning of "swelling"?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bal%C4%B1k
In Greek there is a Cretan word βαλικιώτης balikiotes (ϝαλ-)( *wal-) , a Cretan word for ἡλικιώτης; also Hsch. βαλῖνος balinos.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*b%3Aentry+group%3D7%3Aentry%3Dbalikiw%2Fths
ἡλικιώτης helikiotes means "of the same age, comrade"; Hesychius says ἡλικιώτης = συνέφηβος synephebos (syn + ephebos - εφηβος ephebos mean "young man").
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*h%3Aentry+group%3D6%3Aentry%3Dh%28likiw%2Fths
and ηλικία helikia means "age":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B7%CE%BB%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AF%CE%B1
Gr. βαλῖνος balinos (or βάλερος baleros or βαλλιρός balliros) means "a kind of carp" (etc).
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*b%3Aentry+group%3D7%3Aentry%3Dba%2Fleros
As I said, I'm not sure if there is a connection though with bAla etc or with Sum. bulug for "growing" etc.
There is also an issue with a Gr. name Παλλάς Pallas, a name given mostly to the godess Athena, possible connected with pallex and pallake / pallakis (there is also a masculine variation Πάλλας, a name of a Titan and a giant). According to Wikipedia:
"From Ancient Greek, πάλλειν (pállein, “brandishing”), derived from πάλλω (pállō, “to poise, sway, or swing”). [1]. Or possibly from παλλακίς (pallakís, “concubine”), most likely from Proto-Indo-European *parikeh₂ (“concubine, wanton woman”), related to Avestan (pairikā, “demonic courtesan”) and Parthian parik.[2]"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Pallas
From παλλακίς (pallakís, “concubine”), most likely from Proto-Indo-European *parikeh₂ (“concubine, wanton woman”), related to Avestan pairikā, “demonic courtesan”) and Manichaean Parthian pryg (parīg).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%A0%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%AC%CF%82
The godess Athena of course could not be a "concubine", since she is a Παρθένος Parthenos ("maiden", "virgin"). But παλλακή pallake could mean initially "young girl" anyway.
About Iran. pairika look also here:
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/pairika
(Gr. πάλλειν (pállein, “brandishing” could be compared to Sum. bul "quake" I think, we have discussed about it at Giacomo's posts).
From παλλακίς (pallakís, “concubine”), most likely from Proto-Indo-European *parikeh₂ (“concubine, wanton woman”), related to Avestan pairikā, “demonic courtesan”) and Manichaean Parthian pryg (parīg).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%A0%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%AC%CF%82
Technically it works yes.
The godess Athena of course could not be a "concubine", since she is a Παρθένος Parthenos ("maiden", "virgin"). But παλλακή pallake could mean initially "young girl" anyway.
Exactly .
(Gr. πάλλειν (pállein, “brandishing” could be compared to Sum. bul "quake" I think, we have discussed about it at Giacomo's posts).
Yes I also think so :) .
As I said, I'm not sure if there is a connection though with bAla etc or with Sum. bulug for "growing" etc.
I think there is sense :) .
It is also interesting that balyk in Old Turkish means "wall" and "town, city", according to this:
http://info.filg.uj.edu.pl/zhjij/~stachowski.marek/store/pub/2013%20Balkan,%20bal,%20balyk.pdf
'' For Turkic balyk ‘fish’ I would like to suggest that the
word originally concerned the tench or some other species
preferring waters with muddy or clayey bottom. This meaning
was generalized over the course of time, a process due to
migrations of the Turkic peoples that made more and more
fish genera known to them.'' .
Interesting suggestion :).
About the proposed Turcic bal for "clay" (though it means "honey"), there is also a similar Gr. word πηλός pelos "clay".
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%B7%CE%BB%CF%8C%CF%82
Do you think it could be connected somehow with IE *(t)pel etc?
Yes I was exactly thinking this this morning ! but how we explain the t?.
I'm not sure; the initial "t" I think is to explain Gr. πτόλις for πόλις. Perhaps t is a form of initial s?
For example, sometimes πηλός is thought to belong to the root of Latin squalus:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/squalus
and some other words like Latin caligo and Skt. kala (also Gr. κηλίς (kēlís, “spot, stain”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/caligo#Latin
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/squalus
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/caligo#Latin
Maybe it is connected somehow to this initial s of squalus; though this root (squalus excluded) could be just "kal".
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=2802&root=config
btw the form πτόλις ptolis for πόλις polis resembles a word πτέρνα / πτέρνη pterna / pterne for "heel" (a more frequent word than σφυρόν sphyron "heel, ankle"), from a curious *tpersn- root, which seems to me close to the root of spurn and shpurati (like sperH etc) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/spurn
http://etymology_el_en.enacademic.com/5925/%CF%80%CF%84%E1%BD%B3%CF%81%CE%BD%CE%B7
btw, do you remember Sum. bala, wr. bal; bil2 "to rotate, turn over, cross; to pour out, libate, make a libation; reign, rotation, turn, term of office; to revolt" etc?
Concerning the meaning "pour out, libate, make a libation" I suggest a comparison with Gr. παλάσσω palasso "to besprinkle, sully, defile" ( literally to defile by making wet something, usually connected to πάλλω pallo, but sometimes connected also to πηλός pelos / παλός palos "clay"). Hesychius gives a word πάλκος palkos for πηλός pelos "clay".
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dpala%2Fssw
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*p%3Aentry+group%3D13%3Aentry%3Dpa%2Flkos
And some people think about a connection to Lithuanian pelkė "swamp, marsh, bog"
"From Proto-Indo-European *pelHk-iH-h₂, related to Latvian pelce (“puddle”), Latin palus (“marsh”), Sanskrit पल्वल (palvala, “pool, pond”), and possibly πηλός (pēlós, “mud, earth, clay”)."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pelk%C4%97
The funny thing is that there is a Lith. bala "swamp" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bala#Lithuanian
which is said to be from a proto slavic *bolto
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/bolto
Maybe it is connected somehow to this initial s of squalus; though this root (squalus excluded) could be just "kal".
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=2802&root=config
btw the form πτόλις ptolis for πόλις polis resembles a word πτέρνα / πτέρνη pterna / pterne for "heel" (a more frequent word than σφυρόν sphyron "heel, ankle"), from a curious *tpersn- root, which seems to me close to the root of spurn and shpurati (like sperH etc) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/spurn
http://etymology_el_en.enacademic.com/5925/%CF%80%CF%84%E1%BD%B3%CF%81%CE%BD%CE%B7
Okay :) .
btw, do you remember Sum. bala, wr. bal; bil2 "to rotate, turn over, cross; to pour out, libate, make a libation; reign, rotation, turn, term of office; to revolt" etc?
Yes :) .
And some people think about a connection to Lithuanian pelkė "swamp, marsh, bog"
"From Proto-Indo-European *pelHk-iH-h₂, related to Latvian pelce (“puddle”), Latin palus (“marsh”), Sanskrit पल्वल (palvala, “pool, pond”), and possibly πηλός (pēlós, “mud, earth, clay”)."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pelk%C4%97
The funny thing is that there is a Lith. bala "swamp" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bala#Lithuanian
which is said to be from a proto slavic *bolto
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/bolto
Very interesting! :) . About palvala Monier-Wiiliams say-
'1 palvala n. (m. Siddh.) a pool , small tank , pond. [Cf. Gk. $ ; Lat. {palus} ; Lith. {pu4rvas} (?).] &187198[610 ,3] '
The funny thing is that there is a Lith. bala "swamp" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bala#Lithuanian
which is said to be from a proto slavic *bolto
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/bolto
:D .
I'm not sure about this proposal, yet I can try it:
Hesychius has another similar word for πηλός "clay etc", that is πάσκος paskos:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*p%3Aentry+group%3D71%3Aentry%3Dpa%2Fskos
The comparison is with Suμ. word:
biz [TRICKLE] (12x: Old Babylonian) wr. bi-iz; biz "to trickle, drip" Akk. başāşu
The pask- of this word reminds me of a psak- (ψακ-) in this word:
ψα^κάζω psakazo, later ψεκάζω psekazo, (ψακάς psakas):— "A.rain in small drops, drizzle, drip".
Good! :)
But no IE etymology here :(
A similar root in ToB (for "wet", "sprinkle" etc) seems to be cloze to "biz" (it includes Dravidian but no IE), this one:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=++37&root=config
Eurasiatic: *p`iSV
Meaning: sprinkle
Borean: Borean
Altaic: *p`i̯usi
Uralic: *pisa (*piśa-) (cf. also *pOśV , *pese )
Kartvelian: *ps-
Dravidian: *pis-
Chukchee-Kamchatkan: Gil. p`sar 'вымокнуть под дождем', p`sar-p`sar 'брызгать'
References: МССНЯ 332, ОСНЯ 2, 101-102; ND 1808 *ṗiśV 'to spray, to drip'; 1811 *[ṗ]us/š[E] 'to spit, sprinkle' (Alt. + Ur. *pus/šV = 'blow' + ?SDr *puc- 'spit' (probably a variant of *pis-, see above
Proto-Afro-Asiatic: *piḥas-
Meaning: wet, sprinkle
Borean etymology: Borean etymology
Semitic: *pVḥaš- 'wet, moisten'
Western Chadic: *pyaHVs- 'spurt water from one's mouth'
Central Chadic: *pi/es- 'sprinkle' 1, 'spit in a calebase' 2
East Chadic: *pyas- '(be) wet'
Akkadian başāşu "trickle" I think is mostly about tears etc
The Greek word is here:
ψακάς psakas 1 ψάω psao
I.any small piece broken off, a grain, morsel, bit, ἀργυρίου μηδὲ ψακάς, i.e. not even a silver penny, Ar.; collectively, ψάμμου ψεκάς grains of sand, Anth.
II.a drop of rain; and collectively, drizzling rain, ὕσθησαν αἱ Θῆβαι ψακάδι Hdt.; ψακὰς δὲ λήγει drops are ceasing, i.e. a storm is coming, Aesch.:—generally, rain, Eur.; ψακάδι φοινίας δρόσου with a sprinkling of bloody dew, Aesch.
2.Comic name for a sputterer, Ar.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dyaka%2Fs
Its proposed root by the lexicon (from ψάω psao etc is from the root *bhes 'to spread, smear, rub on').
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0247
About the Akkadian form başāşu "to trickle", it seems also to be connected to a meaning bāşu, later bāşşu "sand" (from river).
https://books.google.gr/books?id=-qIuVCsRb98C&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=ba%C5%9F%C4%81%C5%9Fu+akkadian+lexicon&source=bl&ots=BramusLUKD&sig=_hFjUFyP881Gbrgn8Dz-QDaveQY&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiG6e6l05LXAhWMPRoKHX0dDrQQ6AEINTAC#v=onepage&q=ba%C5%9F%C4%81%C5%9Fu%20akkadian%20lexicon&f=false
Akk. bāṣu "sand" also here:
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=b%C4%81%E1%B9%A3u&language=rawakkadian
Gr.ψάμμος psammos for "sand" here (I think we have been talking about it in Giacomo's posts):
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dya%2Fmmos
I think that the Skt. reflexes of *bhes (BHAS / PSA) is about chewing etc:
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=babhasti&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=psAta&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
Perhaps we can add this Latin word as well :
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Latin/pissio
https://www.etymonline.com/word/piss
How about Kyriakos connecting this one? :)
''*pisk-
Proto-Indo-European root meaning "a fish."
It forms all or part of: fish; fishnet; grampus; piscatory; Pisces; piscine; porpoise.
It is the hypothetical source of/evidence for its existence is provided by: Latin piscis (source of Italian pesce, French poisson, Spanish pez, Welsh pysgodyn, Breton pesk); Old Irish iasc; Old English fisc, Old Norse fiskr, Gothic fisks.'' https://www.etymonline.com/word/*pisk-
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1467
Yes, I think we could; Hesychius gives these two types πάλκος "palkos" and πάσκος "paskos" for πηλός pelos "mud, clay"; it seems as if Turkic balik (**palk?) and IE *pisk (**pask?) are variants of the same word, meaning perhaps something "creature of the muddy waters" (as this paper implies for "balik").
Also, at Kloekhorst's paper about the "thorn clusters" (more specifically about the *degh- root for Gr. "ikthys" fish, there was the following note "Already Brandenstein (1936: 29) connected the word for ‘fish’ with a root *deǵh-, which he translates as “eintauchen”.44 However, on the basis of OIr. deug (f.) ‘drink, draught, potion’ and Lith. dažaĩ ‘liquid dye, paint’, dažýti ‘to paint’, the nominal root *deǵh- may originally rather have meant ‘liquid’. This would indicate that *dǵh-uH- originally meant‘the one belonging to liquid; fish’.4"
Of course the source of some IE words for "wall" (like deha and Gr. τειχος teikhos) is also a similar "thorn cluster" root meaning "dough" etc (perhaps a liquid dense substance").
Beautiful :) . I agree with you.
And I have possibly found another new ( not sure may be someone did already :) ) Cognate possibility between IE branches , compare Sanskrit 1 tas 1 cl. 4. %{-syati} , to fade away , perish Dha1tup. xxvi , 103 ; (cf. %{taMs}) to cast upwards (or `" to throw down "') ib. (Vop.) ; to throw Pa1n2. 3-4 , 61 Ka1s3. 2.
2 tas mfn. `" throwing "' with toss (v.)
mid-15c., "to lift or throw with a sudden movement," of uncertain origin, possibly from a Scandinavian source (compare dialectal Norwegian tossa "to strew, spread"). Food preparation sense (with reference to salad, etc.) is recorded from 1723. Intransitive sense "be restless; throw oneself about" is from 1550s. Related: Tossed; tossing.
https://www.etymonline.com/word/toss
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/toss
You know of any Greek parallels ? :) .
Kloekhorst's view is also at Wikipedia:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C5%BEuvis#Lithuanian
Now, it's your term: do you think there is some connection with "matsya", at least about the meaning like "muddy water or substance"?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF
From Proto-Indo-Iranian *mátsyas. Cognate with Avestan 𐬨𐬀𐬯𐬌𐬌𐬀 (masiia).
Forgive me now for my backround, but this masiia reminds me this word:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/messiah
Recalling also this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthys
Then this Sumerian word:
peš [ANOINT] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. peš5 "to anoint" Akk. pašāšu "to anoint"
and we know that in Sumerian we also have:
peš [FISH] (1x: Old Akkadian) wr. pešku6 "a fish"
which according to Whittaker is the same with IE *peisk etc etc
:D
About matsya Mayrhofer is referring to a *mad-(a)s- root.
Do you think it could be from *meh₂d- root "to be wet, to become wet"? (alternative root *mad)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/meh%E2%82%82d-
Take for example Latin madeo:
From Proto-Indo-European *meh₂d- (“to drip, ooze; grease, fat”). See also Ancient Greek μαδάω (madáō), μαστός (mastós), μεστός (mestós), English meat, Sanskrit मदति (mádati), ममत्ति (mamátti), and Old Irish maidim. Compare Serbo-Croatian modar (“blue”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/madeo#Latin
Now, it's your term: do you think there is some connection with "matsya", at least about the meaning like "muddy water or substance"?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF
From Proto-Indo-Iranian *mátsyas. Cognate with Avestan 𐬨𐬀𐬯𐬌𐬌𐬀 (masiia).
Yes ! I think you also remember this :
Proto-IE: *menǝ(w)-
Nostratic etymology: Nostratic etymology
Meaning: a k. of fish
Old Indian: mīna- m. `fish' (MInd. deriv. from *minya-)
Old Greek: mái̯nǟ f., mai̯nís, -ídos f. N. eines kleinen heringähnlichen Fisches, `Maena vulgaris'
Slavic: *mьnь `Aalraupe'
Baltic: *men̂-k-ā̂, -iā̃ (1) f., -ia- (1) c.
Germanic: *mun-jōn- f., *muniw-ō f.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+753&root=config
The ultimate root is likely 'to be moist, wet' with a root like *ma/*me-
compare this :
https://www.etymonline.com/word/moist
https://www.etymonline.com/word/mucus
Perhaps this Pokorny root :
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1208
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%B4%CE%B1%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%82
This root of TOB is attractive :
Proto-IE: *mū-
Nostratic etymology: Nostratic etymology
Meaning: to wash, to wet
Old Greek: kypr. mülásthai = tò sō̂ma hḕ tḕn kephalḕn smḗxasthai. Kǘprioi (Hsch. = Bechtel Dial. 1, 451), NGreek (Chios) mūliázō, mūlíasma 'im Wasser einweichen' (Fraenkel, 417)
Slavic: *mɨ̄́tī, *mɨ̄́dlo
Baltic: *maû- vb. (2); *maû-d-ī- vb., *mū̂-d-ē̂- vb. (2)
Germanic: *mūt-[ō]- vb.
Russ. meaning: мыть(ся), мочить(ся)
References: WP II 249 f
Comments: [Cf. *mū- `to soil']
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=2884&root=config
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1312
https://www.etymonline.com/word/mud
Pokorny's other roots like this one seems related :
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1223
See what Monier-Williams say on Sanskrit mad :
2 mad 2 (cf. %{mand}) cl. 4. P. (Dha1tup. xxvi , 99) %{mA4dyati} (ep. also %{-te} ; Ved. also I. P. A1. %{mA4dyati} %{-te} ; 3. P. %{mama4tti} , %{-ttu} , %{mama4dat} , %{a4mamaduH} ; Ved. Impv. %{ma4tsi} , %{-sva} ; pf. %{mamA4da} ; aor. %{amAdiSuH} , %{amatsuH} , %{amatta} ; Subj. %{ma4tsati} , %{-sat} ; fut. %{maditA} , %{madiSyati} Gr. ; Ved. inf. %{maditos}) , to rejoice , be glad , exult , delight or revel in (instr. gen. loc. , rarely acc.) , be drunk (also fig.) with (instr.) RV. &c. &c. ; to enjoy heavenly bliss (said of gods and deceased ancestors) RV. TBr. ; to boil bubble (as water) RV. TS. S3Br. Hariv. ; to gladden , exhilarate , intoxicate , animate , inspire RV.: Caus. %{mA8da4yati} , %{-te} (Dha1tup. xxxiii , 31 , xix , 54 ; aor. %{a4mImadat} or %{amamadat} ; Ved. inf. %{madaya4dhyai}) , to gladden , delight , satisfy , exhilarate , intoxicate , inflame , inspire RV. &c. &c. ; (A1.) to be glad , rejoice , be pleased or happy or at ease RV. VS. Kaus3. ; (A1.) to enjoy heavenly bliss RV. TBr. BhP.: Desid. %{mimadiSati} Gr.: Intens. %{mAmadyate} , %{mAmatti} ib. [Perhaps orig. `" to be moist "' ; cf. Gk. $ ; Lat. {madere}.] &236247[777 ,3]
Forgive me now for my backround, but this masiia reminds me this word:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/messiah
Possible! :D .
Recalling also this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthys
Then this Sumerian word:
peš [ANOINT] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. peš5 "to anoint" Akk. pašāšu "to anoint"
and we know that in Sumerian we also have:
peš [FISH] (1x: Old Akkadian) wr. pešku6 "a fish"
which according to Whittaker is the same with IE *peisk etc etc
Of course! :D .
And of course I just saw your comment of ''About matsya Mayrhofer is referring to a *mad-(a)s- root.
Do you think it could be from *meh₂d- root "to be wet, to become wet"? (alternative root *mad)''
We are again thinking same! :D .
Υeah, also this paper (about balik) make reference again for a meaning of glistering concerning the fish :D do you think that the Harappan fishes may refer to cities instead :P
Another thing I am curious about is the possible connection with the "honey" root(s) *medhu and *meli-t (maybe a depper connection to *ma- / me-?); also concerning turkish bal for honey.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/m%C3%A9d%CA%B0u
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/m%C3%A9lit
Also, what about "mud"?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mud
https://www.etymonline.com/word/mud
I would like to suggest here also that this one should be related too :
'' mere (n.)
Old English mere "sea, ocean; lake, pool, pond, cistern," from Proto-Germanic *mari (source also of Old Norse marr, Old Saxon meri "sea," Middle Dutch maer, Dutch meer "lake, sea, pool," Old High German mari, German Meer "sea," Gothic marei "sea," mari-saiws "lake"), from PIE root *mori- "body of water."
https://www.etymonline.com/word/*mori-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mere#English
(Related https://www.etymonline.com/word/mire
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mire#Etymology_1 )
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/m%C3%B3ri
To above the Sanskrit mIra m. the sea , ocean Un2. ii , 25 Sch. (L. also `" a partic. part of a mountain ; a limit , boundary ; a drink , beverage "').
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=mIra&direct=se Should be connected .
BTW Perhaps this Indic one also is related :
''mārtta 10085 *mārtta ʻ earthen ʼ. 2. mārttika -- ʻ earthen ʼ MānŚr., n. ʻ lump of earth ʼ Bhām., m.n. ʻ earthen pot ʼ Gr̥Śr. [S. L. WPah. poss. < *martta -- . -- mŕ̊ttikā -- ]
1. Paš.uzb. mōtr̥ ʻ clay ʼ; K. maṭh, dat. °ṭas m. ʻ large earthen vessel ʼ; S. maṭu, māṭo m. ʻ large earthen vessel used as a float ʼ; L. maṭṭ m. ʻ alluvial deposit, large earthen vessel (= Ju. maṭ m.) ʼ; WPah.bhal. maṭṭ m. ʻ large vessel used in sacrifices ʼ; Ku. māṭ ʻ large earthen jar ʼ; Bi. māṭ ʻ earthen vessel for storing grain ʼ, mag. ʻ underground grain pit ʼ, (Campāran) maṭ(u)kā ʻ earthen vessel for grain or water ʼ, (Gaya) mã̄ṭ ʻ large flat jar ʼ; H. māṭ m. ʻ large earthen vessel ʼ; G. māṭ m.n. ʻ earthen pot ʼ, māṭlī f. ʻ small do. ʼ, °lũ n. ʻ large do. ʼ.
2. Pa. mattika -- ʻ made of clay ʼ; Sh. māṭi̯ f. ʻ fine palecoloured clay ʼ; K. müṭü f. ʻ large earthen vessel ʼ, S. māṭī f. ʻ do. (used as a float) ʼ, P. maṭṭī f.; N. maṭiyā ʻ small earthen pot ʼ; A. maṭhiyā ʻ large earthen jar ʼ, maṭiyā ʻ earthen ʼ; B. meṭiyā ʻ id. ʼ, māṭiyā ʻ earthen, earth -- coloured ʼ; Or. māṭiā ʻ earthy ʼ; H. maṭ(ṭ)iyā ʻ made of clay ʼ.
mārttika -- see prec.
Addenda: *mārtta -- . 1. S.kcch. maṭṭ m. ʻ large earthen waterpot ʼ.''
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.3.soas.482455
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=mrttika&direct=se
Now , this is my last suggestion of the day , how about we connect this ? :) :
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mother#Etymology_1
https://www.etymonline.com/word/mother
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1228
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1207
eah, also this paper (about balik) make reference again for a meaning of glistering concerning the fish :D do you think that the Harappan fishes may refer to cities instead :P
Interesting! :) .
Another thing I am curious about is the possible connection with the "honey" root(s) *medhu and *meli-t (maybe a depper connection to *ma- / me-?); also concerning turkish bal for honey..
Yes beautiful !! :) .
Also, what about "mud"? .
Sure! :) .
Besides, there is also a Skt. mAna meaning "dwelling, house"; maybe the fishes are about mansions :D.
Also, we have latin moenia for walls:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/moenia
I am recalling now Sum. bad "(city)wall"; perhaps from a root like this one at Starling:
Eurasiatic: *ṗado
Meaning: wall; pen
Altaic: *p`ádo
Uralic: *paδV
Dravidian: *paṭ-
References: Redei 347; Hegedűs 1990, 97-98 (Ur.-Alt., with dubious IE).
Uralic:
Proto: *paδV
> Nostratic: > Nostratic
English meaning: dam, enclosure, fish trap
German meaning: Damm, Wehr, Fischfangsperre
Finnish: pato 'Damm'
Saam (Lapp): buođđo -đ- (N) 'dam (usually of peat), enclosure for netting salmon', pi̮ǝ̑Dta (T; gen. pi̮ǝda), pu͕ǝDtA (Kld.), pu͕αDDA (Ko. Not.) 'kleiner Damm (Fangvorrichtung für Fische und Fischotter)'
Khanty (Ostyak): păl (V O), păt (DN) 'Wehr'
Hungarian: fal 'Wall; Nauer; (dial.) der Teil des Schlammbeißerkorbs oder der Reuse, in dem die Fische gefangen bleiben'
Sammalahti's version: *pa/iδa
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=1063&root=config
some uralic words have pal instead of pat / pad etc
maybe something like that we have to me-dhu and me-l-it for honey
ToB etymology for "honey"
Eurasiatic: *mVjLV
Meaning: honey
Indo-European: *melit-
Altaic: *male
Uralic: *majδ́V (SKES 328)
Dravidian: *māl-
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=+384&root=config
btw, in turkish bal possibly is m>b, perhaps something like in Gr. βλίττω blitto (bl- <ml-) "to extract the honey of the bees"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*b%3Aentry+group%3D8%3Aentry%3Dbli%2Fttw
About "mother", it could be from a *ma (perhaps concerning nourishment, milk etc, like a thick liquid etc); the root according to the ToB is *mā-t-er- :
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+729&root=config
Maybe the -t-er ending is just from "father" (pa-t-er)
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+846&root=config
I propose to explore the possibility of a pat- root for father: a father after all is a protector (lik the pat- in "wall"). Maybe the pat- root of father- in IE is what is missing from the other Nostratic for *pado "wall" (no IE there, I remember only an Armenian pat for "city wall").
Of course we have the root of pati, we have discussed about it in Giacomo's posts so many times (Whittaker compared also a Sum. mutin to an IE pot-, like in Gr. πότνια potnia etc; a case of m / p also here).
Proto-IE: *pot-, -d-
Nostratic etymology: Nostratic etymology
Meaning: master
Tokharian: A pats, B pets (PT *petsä) 'husband' (Adams 401)
Old Indian: páti- m. `master, lord, ruler'; pátnī f. `female possessor, mistress'; pátyate `to reign, rule, govern'
Avestan: paiti- m. 'Herr, Gebieter, Gemahl'; paɵnī- 'Herrin'; xaē-pati- 'er selbst'
Old Greek: pósi-s, -ios m. `Ehemann, Gatte, Gemahl', pótnia f. `Herrin, Herrscherin (bes. von Göttinnen); dés-poi̯na f. `Herrin, Hausfrau', des-pótǟ-s, -ọ̄ `Herr, Hausherr, Herrscher'; despózdō (-d-) 'to be lord or master'
Slavic: *gospodь, *gospodā́
Baltic: *pat-i- m., *pat-ī f., *pat-jā f.
Germanic: *fáɵ-i- m.
Latin: potis, -e `vermögend, mächtig'; hospes, gen. -itis m. `Gastfreund'; possideō, -ēre, -sēdī `besitzen, besetzt halten', possum, posse, potuī `können'
Celtic: Bret ozech `Hausherr, Gatte'
Russ. meaning: хозяин
References: WP II 77 f
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+921&root=config
About the words you posted for *martta / mŕ̊ttikā etc,
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.3.soas.482455
We were talking about that, about a year before, Mayrhofer has it in mṛd "earth, clay"; a first impression is that it looks like the word for "dead" (*mr̥tós):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/mr%CC%A5t%C3%B3s
which in Greek gives a word μορτός mortos, but also another one βροτός brotos "mortal man":
From Proto-Hellenic *mrotós, from Proto-Indo-European *mr̥twós or *mr̥tós (“dead, mortal”), ultimately from the root *mer- (“to die”). Cognates include Sanskrit मृत (mṛtá), Old Armenian մարդ (mard), Latin mortuus, Old Church Slavonic мрътвъ (mrŭtvŭ), Persian مرد (mard) and Old English morþ.
Another word βρότος brotos, means the "blood that has run from a wound, gore".
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B2%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%82
If this brotos is from a similar mr̥t-, it could be connected, I think, to mṛd (clay, as similar to blood, especially gore); also these words you posted for "jar" reminded me a Sum. word mud "beer jar" etc; I made the connection because there is also a Sum. mud "blood" (Akk. dāmu "blood, dark"). Well, I'm not sure about all that.
the melit of "honey" (if we are talking about the dense liquid)
About "mother", it could be from a *ma (perhaps concerning nourishment, milk etc, like a thick liquid etc); the root according to the ToB is *mā-t-er- :
I agree! :) .
I propose to explore the possibility of a pat- root for father: a father after all is a protector (lik the pat- in "wall"). Maybe the pat- root of father- in IE is what is missing from the other Nostratic for *pado "wall" (no IE there, I remember only an Armenian pat for "city wall").
Sounds good! :) .
Of course we have the root of pati, we have discussed about it in Giacomo's posts so many times (Whittaker compared also a Sum. mutin to an IE pot-, like in Gr. πότνια potnia etc; a case of m / p also here).
Yup! :) .
We were talking about that, about a year before, Mayrhofer has it in mṛd "earth, clay"; a first impression is that it looks like the word for "dead" (*mr̥tós):
Ah yes! , yes this is good also! :) .
Another word βρότος brotos, means the "blood that has run from a wound, gore".
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B2%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%82
If this brotos is from a similar mr̥t-, it could be connected, I think, to mṛd (clay, as similar to blood, especially gore); also these words you posted for "jar" reminded me a Sum. word mud "beer jar" etc; I made the connection because there is also a Sum. mud "blood" (Akk. dāmu "blood, dark"). Well, I'm not sure about all that.
the melit of "honey" (if we are talking about the dense liquid).
Agreed! :) .
Oh yes now I remember , here is a very interesting paper on Linear A script (if you already didn't refer it ;)) , it has deciphered some and also listed . A friend told me that there are some Sanskrit similar words too !, I am looking for them and of course more connections with other IE languages and Sumerian etc are on the cards perhaps! :) .
https://www.academia.edu/34970148/Preview_of_the_Revised_Linear_A_Lexicon_Lexicon_of_1070_words_only_40_median_deciphered
See also :
https://linearbknossosmycenae.com/tag/sanskrit/
About the possibility of a **mlt / mld for "(thick?) liquid" as a progenitor of *melit for "honey" (and thinking of a **mld perhaps also connected with SKt. *mrd for clay / earth): there are some Gr. words beginning with βλ- bl-, which could be perhaps connected.
At Hesychius, for example, there is a word βλίδες blides = ψεκάδες psekades (blides = "small drops from drizzling" etc - about a possible comparison of "psekas" to Sum. biz I was talking above); perhaps it is now blid- from mlid-? which we could suppose as connected to mrd?
In Sumerian a word "bizaza" for "frog" could be connected also to "biz" perhaps and the notion of liquid.
Well, if βλίδες blides = ψεκάδες psekades, then, there are some words for "frog" starting with blid-/ blik-:
βλίκανος blikanos, ὁ, = βάτραχος batrakhos ("frog"), Hsch., EM201.42:—also βλίχας blikhas, Hsch.: βλίκαρος blikaros, Suid.
These all seems to be from something like **mlik- / **mlikh- ?. If they follow the pattern of βλίττω (from mlit-).
There is also a βλίταχος blitakhos for "frog" (from **mlit-?)
http://perseus.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?p.12:2.LSJ
About the possibility of a **mlt / mld for "(thick?) liquid" as a progenitor of *melit for "honey" (and thinking of a **mld perhaps also connected with SKt. *mrd for clay / earth): there are some Gr. words beginning with βλ- bl-, which could be perhaps connected.
Sounds quite reasonable! :) .
At Hesychius, for example, there is a word βλίδες blides = ψεκάδες psekades (blides = "small drops from drizzling" etc - about a possible comparison of "psekas" to Sum. biz I was talking above); perhaps it is now blid- from mlid-? which we could suppose as connected to mrd?
I find it good :) .
These all seems to be from something like **mlik- / **mlikh- ?. If they follow the pattern of βλίττω (from mlit-).
There is also a βλίταχος blitakhos for "frog" (from **mlit-?)
I agree :) .
I think that there could be also an issue about the word "blood" (seems like a "**bld-" (< **mlt/**mld?)?, let's say, word to me); of uncertain origin:
"From Middle English blood, from Old English blōd, from Proto-Germanic *blōþą, of uncertain origin. Cognate with Saterland Frisian Bloud, West Frisian bloed, Dutch bloed, German Blut, Danish, Swedish and Norwegian blod."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/blood
There is also an etymology from *bhel:
https://www.etymonline.com/word/blood
About a possible connection between "blood" and "honey", we have discussed about a similar hypothesis at Giacomo's posts; we were talking about Gr. haima for "blood" and a norwegian *seim meaning something like "thick fluid, honey" and Giacomo has said that if it was *saim- it would fit perfect to haima "blood" morphologically and semantically as "thick fluid". He gave this link: https://www.dwds.de/wb/seimig
Btw, at the old dnghu, a reference was made for soma "blood of animals, sap of plants, soma plant, intoxicating drink", in comparison to these words.
In this case (of "blood") I think we could imagine also a **mld > **bld, for "thick liquid - honey" / "blood".
On the other hand, if "mld" is connected with "mrd" (like in clay) and if there is a mp equation, as Whittaker says (like for mutin / potim etc); since also there is an archaic equation (in Sumerian) for g/b, we could have perhaps a process like mrd/ prd / brt, then krt (with b/g), then a word like Drav. kuruti and kurudi for "blood, red colour etc" , Skt. kravis, or Gr. kreas / -atos "flesh, connected to Sum. kurun for "blood", also "sweet wine" etc...
So, a general impression is that maybe we have to do with loan-words from the one proto-dialect (or even proto-language) to the other inside the "language continuum" (with many possible modifications or even influences from other words during this processs); later these words were "normalized" as the proper word for each language.
There is also English "gore" = 1) (obsolete except in dialects) Dirt; mud; filth. 2) Blood, especially that from a wound when thickened due to exposure to the air. 3) Murder, bloodshed, violence.
From Middle English gor, gore, gorre, from Old English gor (“dirt, dung, filth, muck”), from Proto-Germanic *gurą (“half-digested stomach contents; feces; manure”), from Proto-Indo-European *gʷʰer- (“hot; warm”) .
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gore
(the derivation from *gʷʰer- “hot; warm” seems odd, though)
I think that there could be also an issue about the word "blood" (seems like a "**bld-" (< **mlt/**mld?)?, let's say, word to me); of uncertain origin:.
Certainly! :D .
s Whittaker says (like for mutin / potim etc); since also there is an archaic equation (in Sumerian) for g/b, we could have perhaps a process like mrd/ prd / brt, then krt (with b/g), then a word like Drav. kuruti and kurudi for "blood, red colour etc" , Skt. kravis, or Gr. kreas / -atos "flesh, connected to Sum. kurun for "blood", also "sweet wine" etc...
Very interesting ! :) .
So, a general impression is that maybe we have to do with loan-words from the one proto-dialect (or even proto-language) to the other inside the "language continuum" (with many possible modifications or even influences from other words during this processs); later these words were "normalized" as the proper word for each language.
Sounds quite practical Kyriakos! :) .
the derivation from *gʷʰer- “hot; warm” seems odd, though) .
Yeah :) .
Another Sum. word with a reference to "honey" (I think you have compared it with the English "good") is this one:
kud [SWEET] (65x: Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. ku7 "(to be) good; (to be ) (honey-)sweet" Akk. dašpu; matqu; ţābu
if there is an equation of **mlt/mld -mrt/mrd / **krt-krd, I think it could be also explained (I mean, if Sum. mud is really connected to mrd, then kud could be reffered to a **krt (like in Drav. kuruti etc).
Yes quite agreeable :).
I remember also a similar Sum. word kad [TIE] (20x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. kad5; kad4; kad6; kad8 "to tie, gather; to itch, scratch; to weave a mat?" Akk. harādu; harāsu; kaşāru.
About the meaning "to weave a mat", I think that you have proposed a kard / kart root and a krtati word to "tie" also a kata-m "strw mat"; also you have proposed kaNDu for "itch, scratch" :D
About the meaning "to tie, gather" what do you think about a possible connection to Skt. gadha etc (with meaning as firm, strong, dense, fasten, tight etc"
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=gadha&direct=se
My lexicon seems to be satisfied with a connection of Gr. ἀγαθός agathos "good, brave, useful" etc https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CE%B3%CE%B1%CE%B8%CF%8C%CF%82 with this Skt. word (first meaning of agathos in Linear B seems to be "useful, well working", so it is supposed to be from sm-gadhos (> agathos).
Could be the gadh- root be connected to an older kat- from an older krt? the types with r seem to be more archaic.
About the meaning "to tie, gather" what do you think about a possible connection to Skt. gadha etc (with meaning as firm, strong, dense, fasten, tight etc"
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=gadha&direct=se
My lexicon seems to be satisfied with a connection of Gr. ἀγαθός agathos "good, brave, useful" etc https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CE%B3%CE%B1%CE%B8%CF%8C%CF%82 with this Skt. word (first meaning of agathos in Linear B seems to be "useful, well working", so it is supposed to be from sm-gadhos (> agathos).
Yes I agree ! :D
Could be the gadh- root be connected to an older kat- from an older krt? the types with r seem to be more archaic. .
I think too :) .
Besides Gr. ἀγαθίς agathis means "a ball of thread" ;)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Da)gaqi%2Fs
The etymology of agathos reminded me a similar etymology; the one of Sanskrit https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%82%E0%A4%B8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%95%E0%A5%83%E0%A4%A4#Sanskrit
Concerning the Minoans and the Indic connection, maybe the island Crete was named by a krt word? (something like union of cities or people).
That's an interesting concept :) .
Maybe also Sum. mud "to create" Akk. banû was from a **mat or mot < **mrt < **prt < (kṛt-.
Yup ! :) .
Another Sum. mud "(to be) scared, terrified" has an Akk. equivalent "parādu" (let's say this is the **prt part)΄another Akkadian verb I remember for "to be scared" is galātu / galādu (maybe e the **krt / **klt? one)
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=229&language=id
In IE there are verbs like fear (ultimately from *per) and Latin terreo (like terror etc, ultimately from *ter root)
https://www.etymonline.com/word/fear
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/terreo#Latin
(which both roots seem to be as to be likely from an older *kwer root)
(let's say this is the **prt part)΄another Akkadian verb I remember for "to be scared" is galātu / galādu (maybe e the **krt / **klt? one)
I agree :) .
In IE there are verbs like fear (ultimately from *per) and Latin terreo (like terror etc, ultimately from *ter root)
https://www.etymonline.com/word/fear
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/terreo#Latin
(which both roots seem to be as to be likely from an older *kwer root) .
Yes quite reasonable! :) .
Hi Nirjhar,
The only IE possible root for "fear" with an "mr-" I can imagine is this one:
Proto-IE: *bhorm-, *morm-
Meaning: fear, terrible ghost
Old Greek: mormṓ, gen. -ọ̄̂s, att. -ónos f. `Popanz, Schreckgespenst'; mórmoros = phóbos Hsch.; mǘrmos = phóbos Hsch., mórmē = khalepḗ, ekplēktikḗ Hsch.
Latin: formīdō, -inis f. `Gespenst, Vogelscheuche; Grausen, peinigende Furcht, Schrecken'
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+790&root=config
Pokorny's here:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpokorny&text_number=1328&root=config
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/formido#Latin
But for this I'm not sure if this is really connected.
It's a bit curious that mud = "create" looks like the opposite of dumu = "child".
Speaking about Akk. galātu, there is also this Sum. word for comparison:
buluh [FEAR] (3x: Old Babylonian) wr. bu-luh; bu-lu-uh2; bu-lu-uh3; buluh "to fear, tremble, be afraid" Akk. galātu
The nostratic of ToB I think is this one:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=++27&root=config
Eurasiatic: *belHi
Meaning: to fear, be scared
Borean: Borean
Altaic: *bele ( ~ -o)
Uralic: *pele
Dravidian: *veḷ-
Chukchee-Kamchatkan: Chuk. *pɔlmär (1031).
References: МССНЯ 331-332, ОСНЯ 2, 98-99, ND 1704 *pelqE 'to tremble, fear' (+ Sem.) (but PIE *pelǝ- 'shake', PD *pir_V- 'tremble, fear' and AA forms with *p- should be kept apart).
Starostin excludes the PIE root for "tremble", but I think he's wrong; at least Sum. buluh and Akk. galātu means "to tremble, be afraid". (See also ETCSL: bu-luh=to shudder.); Sum. bul after all means "to shake"
The uralic form are quite interesting:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2furalic%2furalet&text_number=+749&root=config
Concerning again about Sum. buluĝ "to grow up, rear, make grow; novice; foster child" Akk. rabû; tarbûtu - having also in mind the Cretan connection, I remembered a name for Zeus used in Create, that is Velchanos, maybe a similar word to Sum. buluĝ? In one sense, Zeus was a foster child.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus#Zeus_Velchanos
"Welchanos was associated with agrarian magic, with the vegetation cycle and seasonal death, and with the rebirth of nature."
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/w/welchanos.html
But for this I'm not sure if this is really connected. .
Me too :) .
It's a bit curious that mud = "create" looks like the opposite of dumu = "child". .
Yes :) .
Starostin excludes the PIE root for "tremble", but I think he's wrong; at least Sum. buluh and Akk. galātu means "to tremble, be afraid". (See also ETCSL: bu-luh=to shudder.); Sum. bul after all means "to shake" .
Correct! :) . The Uralic form is indeed interesting! :D .
Hmm yes Velchanos and bulug looks good comparisons :) .
bulug and buluh are similar forms and I think Velchanos looks like some of the proposed Dravidian reflexes for buluh "fear" :)
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fdrav%2fsdret&text_number=4600&root=config
bulug and buluh maybe are connected because of the fear, awe for natural forces.
Also, the Dravid forms (from *veḷk-) mean "ashamed; afraid", like Tamil veḷku (veḷki-) which means "to be ashamed, be coy, bashful, fear, shudder, be perplexed"; a Kannada derivate beḷkane "to turn pale through fear" is very close to Velkhanos, I think.
If you remember, when discussing about Sum. teš "pride" (Akk. bāštu), I was thinking of a comparison with the root of Gr. θεός theos "god" (from a meaning "something that you respect, which makes you feel awe for it, which you are afraid of etc"). Akkad. bāštu "pride" also comes from a word bâšu : (1) [TÉŠ] 1) to be ashamed , to come to shame ; 2) to be abashed / embarrassed / disconcerted / ruffled (?) / discombobulated / bewildered / confounded / puzzled / baffled ; D : to put to shame , to disappoint , to lower , to abase , to abash , to confuse , to disconcert , to puzzle , to bewilder , to put to shame , to embarrass etc
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=b%C3%A2%C5%A1u+%281%29&language=rawakkadian
bulug and buluh are similar forms and I think Velchanos looks like some of the proposed Dravidian reflexes for buluh "fear" :).
True :) .
bulug and buluh maybe are connected because of the fear, awe for natural forces.
Also, the Dravid forms (from *veḷk-) mean "ashamed; afraid", like Tamil veḷku (veḷki-) which means "to be ashamed, be coy, bashful, fear, shudder, be perplexed"; a Kannada derivate beḷkane "to turn pale through fear" is very close to Velkhanos, I think.
It is close .
f you remember, when discussing about Sum. teš "pride" (Akk. bāštu), I was thinking of a comparison with the root of Gr. θεός theos "god" (from a meaning "something that you respect, which makes you feel awe for it, which you are afraid of etc"). Akkad. bāštu "pride" also comes from a word bâšu : (1) [TÉŠ] 1) to be ashamed , to come to shame ; 2) to be abashed / embarrassed / disconcerted / ruffled (?) / discombobulated / bewildered / confounded / puzzled / baffled ; D : to put to shame , to disappoint , to lower , to abase , to abash , to confuse , to disconcert , to puzzle , to bewilder , to put to shame , to embarrass etc
Of course ! :) .
Hi Nirjhar,
I was wondering about the proposed IE root *dʰéh₁s for θεός theos ( < *dʰh₁s-o-)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/d%CA%B0%C3%A9h%E2%82%81s
I think that Sum. "teš" fits well with *dʰéh₁s. I was thinking now about the Akkadian bâšu and bāštu; because they look to me similar to Lat. fēstus (and fānum):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/festus#Latin
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fanum#Latin
Not sure about that; yet maybe some IE dialects shared their words with both Sumerian and Akkadian (most probably this is an imagination of mine).
Another random thought is that "bāštu" looks like the city of Φαιστός Phaistos in Crete (but with ph instead of b):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaistos
And Phaistos reminds the god Hephaistos (Hephaestus), which is connected to Latin Vulcan (seems similar to Velchanios, though it could be just a coincidence).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestus
I think that Sum. "teš" fits well with *dʰéh₁s.
Yes I think you also suggested this before? :) . I agree with you!:) .
I was thinking now about the Akkadian bâšu and bāštu; because they look to me similar to Lat. fēstus (and fānum):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/festus#Latin
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fanum#Latin .
Absolutely! :) .
And Phaistos reminds the god Hephaistos (Hephaestus), which is connected to Latin Vulcan (seems similar to Velchanios, though it could be just a coincidence). .
Beautiful ! :D .
There is also an archaic Ethio-Semitic root for "fear" which look like buluh:
Number: 1602
Proto-Semitic: *pVrVh-
Afroasiatic etymology: Afroasiatic etymology
Meaning: 'fear'
Geʕez (Ethiopian): frh
Amharic: färra
Notes: An Ethio-Sem archaism?
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=1602&root=config
That reminds german Furcht and english fright:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Furcht
Not sure if these are connected, though.
Perhaps :) .
Good morning Nirjhar,
About Sum. mud [TUBE] (13x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian) wr. mud "tube, socket" Akk. uppu
There are some interesting words at Hesychius: μοτός motos (masc.) = A.tent, tampon, lint pledget for dressing wounds; II. drainage tube.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dmoto%2Fs
I suppose the second meaning is good for Sum. mud (as "tube"); the first one (about the cloth for wounds) fits perhaps to Sum. word mudum [GARMENT] wr. tug2mu-du-um "a garment" Akk. mudû; also another Gr. word μότημα motema means "store of linen"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dmo%2Fthma
Some other interesting words from Hesychius:
μοττίας mottias: ᾧ στρέφουσι τῶν ῥυτήρων τὸν ἄξονα ["by which they turn the axle of reins", Hsch. μοττοῖ mottoi: τιτρώσκει [titroskei = "he wounds"], ταράττει [tarattei = "he stirs"], Id. μοττοφαγία [mottophagia] = a sacrifice in Cyprus, Id. μόττυες mottyes: οἱ ἔκλυτοι [hoi eklytoi = the easy to let go / light / buoyant / lascivious / relaxed / soft ones etc] καὶ παρειμένοι ["kai pareimenoi" = and the fallen aside (drunken ones?)], Id. μοττωνῆσαι mottonesai: τῇ πτέρνῃ τύψαι, ["tei pternei typsai" = to beat by the heel] Id.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*m%3Aentry+group%3D90%3Aentry%3Dmotti%2Fas
The part about the "heel" μοττωνῆσαι [mottonesai"] perhaps has something to do with the Halloran's Lexicon entry for mud: "n., heel; handle; a right-angled tool [MUD archaic frequency: 88].
v., to give birth; to be afraid; to frighten (closed container with motion out from)".
adj., dark, dim.
Another curious thing is that mud in Sumerian is connected to "creation, birth", yet the long range etymologies of ToB give also this result (MVTV) "die, finish".
Borean (approx.) : MVTV
Meaning : die, finish
Eurasiatic : *muṭV
Afroasiatic : *mawVt-
Sino-Caucasian : ST *mē̆t 'extinguish, destroy'
African (misc.) : Bantu *-màd- 'finish'?
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2feura%2fglobet&text_number=+408&root=config
Proto-Dravidian : *muḍ-i-
Meaning : to end
Nostratic etymology: Nostratic etymology
Proto-South Dravidian: *muḍ-i-
Proto-Telugu : *muḍ-
Proto-Gondi-Kui : *muḍ-
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fdrav%2fdravet&text_number=+907&root=config
Proto-Afro-Asiatic: *mawVt-
Meaning: die
Borean etymology: Borean etymology
Semitic: *mw/yt 'die'
Berber: *immut 'die'
Egyptian: mwt 'die'
Western Chadic: *mawut- 'die'
Central Chadic: *mVtV- 'die'
East Chadic: *mawut- 'die'
Low East Cushitic: *mVwVt- 'die' 1, 'death' 2, 'become very weak and close to death' 3, 'mourning' 4
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fafaset&text_number=2549&root=config
Seen in a broad perspective, it's like Sum. til meaning "to live, to dwell", but also "to come to en end, to perish" I think.
mrt is also for "dead"; perhaps it is the kwer / kwel root again and the circular motion (life is death, death is life); kwel for kwil> til, kwer for kwer-t > kṛt- / prt? > mrt? > mut?.
I suppose the second meaning is good for Sum. mud (as "tube"); the first one (about the cloth for wounds) fits perhaps to Sum. word mudum [GARMENT] wr. tug2mu-du-um "a garment" Akk. mudû; also another Gr. word μότημα motema means "store of linen" .
Yes I agree! :) .
mrt is also for "dead"; perhaps it is the kwer / kwel root again and the circular motion (life is death, death is life); kwel for kwil> til, kwer for kwer-t > kṛt- / prt? > mrt? > mut?. .
Quite fascinating! :) .
Hi Nirjhar,
Since we are searching now about a possible "mrt" kind comparison for Sum. "mud" words, what do you think about this one?
Sum. mud [RABID] (2x: Old Babylonian) wr. mud6 "rabid"
compared to Latin mordeo "bite, nibble, gnaw, nip, sting, eat, consume, devour, erode etc etc"
"From Proto-Italic *mordeō, from Proto-Indo-European *(s)merd- (“to bite, sting”). Cognate with Ancient Greek σμερδνός (smerdnós), σμερδαλέος (smerdaléos), English smart."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mordeo#Latin
Root *(s)merd-:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/(s)merd-
I think the Sanskrit root is MARD:
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=marD&direct=se
Yes I think related! :) , the Skt. word comes from mRd crushing , grinding , rubbing , bruising , destroying (ifc. ; cf. %{ari-} , %{cakra-m-} &c.) ; m. grinding , pounding , violent pressure or friction MBh. VarBr2S. (cf. %{graha-m-}) ; acute pain (cf. %{aGga-m-}) ; dispassion L.
This is related :
''From Proto-Indo-European *mr̥d-, grown from *merā-. Cognate with Sanskrit मृध (mṛdha, “fight, battle, war”), Avestan 𐬨𐬀𐬭𐬆𐬛- (marəd-, “to destroy”), Ancient Greek μάρναμαι (márnamai, “to fight, struggle”), Latin Mars (“the god of war”).''
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D5%B4%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%BF#Old_Armenian
also the Gr. reflexes σμερδνός smerdnos and σμερδαλέος smerdaleos have a meaning "terrible, dreadful".
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CE%BC%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%B4%CE%BD%CF%8C%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
Indic reflexes :
''9890 márdati ʻ pounds, crushes, treads on, squeezes, rubs ʼ MBh. 2. *mr̥ndati. [mr̥dnāˊti (= márdati) MBh., and marmartu RV. (if < °rttu). -- In some NIA. lggs. márdati and *mr̥ndati have coalesced so that it is not possible in all cases to distinguish from which the modern word stems; e.g. Or. māṛibā may be either < mard -- or < mr̥nd -- (with mã̄ -- written as mā -- ); Si. man̆ḍ -- , maḍ -- may be either < mr̥nd -- or < mard -- with nasality from initial m -- . Inter -- dialectal spread of forms accounts for further confusions: e.g. Paš. muṇḍ -- ~ maṇḍ -- are both prob. < *mr̥ndati. Semantically there is also overlap with mánthati. -- √mr̥d]
1. Pa. maddati ʻ crushes, treads on, kneads, jumbles, destroys ʼ; Pk. maddaï, maḍḍaï ʻ crushes, tramples on ʼ; K. mã̄ḍun ʻ to knead, mix ʼ (why long ā?); WPah.bhal. maḍṇū ʻ to thresh ʼ; N. mã̄ṛnu ʻ to rub, tread out ʼ; A. māriba ʻ to thresh, tread out (grain), mix by grinding ʼ; B. māṛā ʻ to pound, thresh ʼ; Or. māṛibā ʻ to press ʼ, (Bāleshwar) māṇḍibā; Mth. māṛab ʻ to knead, shampoo ʼ; Aw.lakh. māṛab ʻ to mix ʼ; H. māṛnā, mã̄ḍnā ʻ to rub, thresh, flatten ʼ (mã̄ḍhnā ʻ id. ʼ X mánthati?).
2. Pk. maṇḍia -- ʻ spread out ʼ? -- Gy. wel. mōr̄ -- ʻ to rub, polish, grind ʼ; Dm. maṇ -- ʻ to rub ʼ; Paš.lauṛ. kuṛ. muṇḍ -- , dar. muṇ -- , weg. muṛ -- , gul. muṇḍal -- tr. ʻ to break ʼ (IIFL iii 3, 123 < múṇṭati), lauṛ. maṇḍ -- ʻ to rub, smear ʼ, kuṛ. mā̆ṇ -- ʻ to thresh, smear ʼ, chil. mēṇ -- ʻ to crush ʼ, ar. mã̄ṛ -- ʻ to rub ʼ; Gaw. mīṇḍemím ʻ I crush, thresh, grind, wash (clothes) ʼ; Kal.rumb. moṇḍ -- ʻ to thresh ʼ, urt. maṇḍ -- ʻ to soften ʼ; Phal. māṇḍ -- ʻ to knead ʼ; K. manḍun ʻ to rub, trample, wash (woollen cloth by kneading it with the feet) ʼ; S. manaṇu ʻ to shampoo, make clothes ready for steaming ʼ; WPah. (Joshi) minṇu ʻ to rub ʼ; Ku. minaṇo ʻ to beat, rub ʼ; Mth. mīṛab ʻ to knead, grind, shampoo ʼ; H. mī˜ṛnā, mī˜ḍ° ʻ to rub with the hands, clean ʼ; M. mã̄dṇẽ ʻ to smear vessels ʼ; Si. man̆ḍinavā, maḍin°, maḍan° ʻ to rub, press, clean rice from the husk ʼ, (inscr.) män̆ḍä absol. ʻ to crush ʼ, maḍavanavā ʻ to prepare a field for planting by buffaloes treading it ʼ (pret. maṇḍā < *man̆ḍvā). -- X mánthati (L. mandhaṇ, P. maddhṇā: cf. H. mã̄ḍhnā in 1) or poss. < mr̥ddhá -- : L.awān. middhaṇ, pp. middhā ʻ to crush ʼ; P. middhṇā, pp. middhā ʻ to stir up, mix, knead (mortar), rumple, tumble (clothes, paper, &c.), spoil by treading on (crops) ʼ. -- X mr̥śáti''
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.3.soas.337523
About this n in some of these reflexes; I remember also a Sum. word "inda" for "tube" - maybe it is connected with "mud" for tube; perhaps there is also a connextion with kanda / pinda (like a round thing? - a tube or socket is also round).
For "rabid", I remember for example that pinda means also "to bite":
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=pinda&direct=au
''About this n in some of these reflexes; I remember also a Sum. word "inda" for "tube" - maybe it is connected with "mud" for tube; perhaps there is also a connextion with kanda / pinda (like a round thing? - a tube or socket is also round).''
Very good idea.
For "rabid", I remember for example that pinda means also "to bite" .
YES :D .
About "rabid", note also this one:
There is a Gr. word ἄμοτος amotos Deriv. unknown.
I.raging, savage, Theocr.
II.in Hom. as adv. ἄμοτον amoton, insatiably, ἄμ. μεμαώς, striving incessantly; ἄμ. κλαίω I weep continually; τανύοντο they struggled restlessly forwards.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Da)%2Fmotos
The initial ἄ- perhaps is again drom sm- ; the other part could be connected to μόθος mothos "battle, battle din, fight", according to the lexicon; μόθος mothos, here:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*m%3Aentry+group%3D27%3Aentry%3Dmo%2Fqos
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dmo%2Fqos
Beautiful Kyriakos :) .
Another crazy idea I had concerning the Sum. mud=words is about the word mudna "spouse"; that if we use a supposed krt/prt for the mud- part, and more precisely a "prt" one, then we could have a word like prt-na, which seems to be close to Gr. παρθένος παρθένος for "young woman, virgin". (etymology unknown).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B8%CE%AD%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
:D
Makes sense !:D
Well, do you remember Sum. banda "(to be) junior; small; (to be) wild, fierce"? perhaps the same happens also here; maybe there is also a relation to the "rabid" (let's say) words you have posted (if we replace m with p). See this also about some related words in possible related words in "mrt".
http://vasco-caucasian.blogspot.gr/2014/07/greek-parthenos-virgin-unmarried-girl.html
I would say that a "wild maiden" notion fits well to the character of the godess Athena.
I agree :) .
The Laconian word παρσένος parsénos instead of παρθένος parthenos ("maiden, virgin") and the possible connection with Sum. mudna "spouse" gave me another crazy idea tonight, Nirjhar.
Concerning Halloran's Sum. mud for "heel": the word for heel in Sanskrit is पार्ष्णि (pā́rṣṇi) f: "the heel; the extremity of the fore-axle to which the outside horses of a four-horse chariot are attached (the two inner horses being harnessed to the धुर् (dhur), or chariot-pole); the rear of an army ; the back; kick; enquiry, asking; a foolish or licentious woman; name of a plant"
From Proto-Indo-European *tpḗrsneh₂ (“heel”). Cognates include Ancient Greek πτέρνη (ptérnē), Latin perna, Gothic 𐍆𐌰𐌹𐍂𐌶𐌽𐌰 (fairzna, “heel”) and Persian پاشنه (pâšne, “heel”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/tp%E1%B8%97rsneh%E2%82%82
The pā́rṣ- part of pā́rṣṇi reminded me the pars- part of "parsenos"; since parsenos is the Laconian for "parthenos", then I thought that a "prt" sound corresponded also for the Sum. "mud" word for "heel"; the -ni ending of pā́rṣṇi though would indicate also a prṣ-na/prt-na > mud-na like word. btw a heel is also of round / spherical shape; as it is also the *kwel/ *kwer root ;)
perhaps it is because of this -na ending (like in pā́rṣṇi) that Hesychius gibes this verb μοττωνέω mottoneo "to hit by the heel".
Another Sum. mud stump (handle) is also of a round shape.
Another object in Halloran is mudla, madlu, mudul, madal = pole; stake; in ePSD is madal [POLE] (5x: Old Babylonian) wr. (ĝeš)madal; (ĝeš)mamadal; ma-ad-li-um "a pole" Akk. mašaddu; makkû; mudulu; muttû.
As I was searching Hesychius, I found this word: μόθουρα mothoura, ἡ, A.loom of an oar, Hsch.
close to mudul / mudulu. These words of Hesychius seem to be Wanderwoerter (wandering words), I think.
The Laconian word παρσένος parsénos instead of παρθένος parthenos ("maiden, virgin") and the possible connection with Sum. mudna "spouse" gave me another crazy idea tonight, Nirjhar.
The idea is not crazy Kyriakos , its very good ! :D .
These words of Hesychius seem to be Wanderwoerter (wandering words), I think
Possible , yes :).
Well, I'm not sure about the source of these "moth-" or "mot-" Anc. Greek words which seem to fit to some of the meanings of Sum. "mud". Another Spartan word μόθων mothon means: "I.at Lacedaemon, the child of an Helot, brought up as foster-brother of a young Spartan:— since such young Helots were likely to presume, μόθων came to mean an impudent fellow, Ar. II.a rude, licentious dance, Eur., Ar."
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dmo%2Fqwn
About the possible connection between "mud" (pro)creation and "dumu" for child, I was thinking that, if "mud" is really from a **mrt/**prt < **krt, let's say (with a vocalization of "r"), then the dum- of "dumu" ( = child) could have its origin from an exactly opposite process **trm/**trp < **trk which, with a vocalization of "r", seems to be like a "tuk" word resembling Gr. τόκος tokos "child"; it looks also like a TK "thorn cluster".
About the possible connection between "mud" (pro)creation and "dumu" for child, I was thinking that, if "mud" is really from a **mrt/**prt < **krt, let's say (with a vocalization of "r"), then the dum- of "dumu" ( = child) could have its origin from an exactly opposite process **trm/**trp < **trk which, with a vocalization of "r", seems to be like a "tuk" word resembling Gr. τόκος tokos "child"; it looks also like a TK "thorn cluster".
Yes quite reasonable :) .
So perhps Sum. mud "joy" (using a reversed process of *mrt/**prt < **krt - meaning a *trm/**trp < **trk one), using the **trp, could be connected, I think, with Gr. τέρπω "I enjoy, I delight":
From Proto-Indo-European *terp- (“to satisfy”), cognate with German dürfen (“to need”) and obsolete and dialectal British English tharf (“to need”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CE%AD%CF%81%CF%80%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
Skt. tRpyati "please, satisfy, enjoy" etc:
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=trpyati&direct=se
*terp root here:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/terp-
Yes I think so :).
Concerning mud "blood", Akk. dāmu, the Akk. word dāmu "blood, dark" seems to be like a dum reversed.
Do you think Skt. rakta "blood" etc is somehow connected too?
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=rakta&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
From the root verb रञ्ज् (rañj, “to redden”), from Proto-Indo-European *reg- (“to dye”). Cognate with Persian رخش (raxš), Sogdian rɣš- (raxš, “Rakhsh”), Chorasmian rxtk (raxtak, “red”), Mazanderani رش (raš, “red (of cattle)”), Kurdish reş (“black”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%95%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4#Sanskrit
Possible yes :) .
For mud for "fear" perhaps there is a connection with *trem (reversed **mrt):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/trem-
If you consider, these roots like *trem or *terp seem a bit awkward, as such.
Gr. τρέμω tremo ( = to tremble, to fear, to be afraid), from *trem, is ultimately from *ter:
From Proto-Indo-European *trem-, extended form of Proto-Indo-European *ter-. The extended form Proto-Indo-European *tres- also yielded τρέω (tréō, “to dread, to terrify”). Cognate with Latin tremō, Avesta (tərəsaiti), Ancient Greek τρέω (tréō), Old Irish tarrach, Lithuanian trišu, Latvian trisēt, Old Church Slavonic трѧсѫ (tręsǫ) and Sanskrit त्रसति (trasati).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CF%81%CE%AD%CE%BC%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
If you consider, these roots like *trem or *terp seem a bit awkward, as such.
Quite agreeable Kyriakos :).
Concerning again mud [RABID] (2x: Old Babylonian) wr. mud6 "rabid", Halloran's lexicon (edition 2006) gives some more meanings:
mud6, mu2 [SAR]: to sing; to blow; to ignite, kindle; to grow, to make grow (tall); to sprout, appear; to be angry, agressive, mad, rabid; to be swollen, inflamed.
In Foxvog's Glossary: mú(d) to grow (up, out), sprout; to ignite; to incite (rarely seen Auslaut /d/, /r/ or /dr/? Cf. OS munu8- mú(d) maltster and Sarg. Adab lú gu4 mú-da cattle
raiser)
About mud "to sing" Hesychius has a word μωδεῖ modei = λαλεῖ lalei (speaks), ᾁδει aidei (sings); I take it as similar to Sum. ad "to sing"; Gr. ᾁδω a(i)do or aeido is from *h₂weyd-, an extansion of *weyd- (like Skt. vadati etc); maybe the "m" of this mud stands for the "w".
Maybe also this mud for "sing" has a connection with dug = "speak, say" (dug is a "tuk", let's say, like word); also I think that mud for "beer jar" and dug = "(clay) pot" (Akk. karpatu) are somehow related too (look above about mud and dumu etc).
About Sum. dug, wr. dug3; ze2-eb; du-uq "(to be) good; (to be) sweet; goodness, good (thing)" Akk. ţābu, we have discussed at one of Giacomo's posts about the possibility of a **dlk origin (like in Latin dulcis:
From Proto-Indo-European *dl̥kú- (“sweet”). Cognate with Ancient Greek γλυκύς (glukús).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dulcis
I would like to add another suggestion using a similar pattern; more precisely a **trp one, (similar to *terp) for this Sum. word:
dub [GO AROUND] (30x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. dab6; dub "to go around, encircle, turn; to search; to tarry" Akk. lawû; sahāru
comparing to Gr. τρόπος tropos (like in "tropical" etc); from τρέπω *trep "turn":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CF%81%CE%AD%CF%80%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
etchttps://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%80%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
It is compared usually with Skt. trapate (something like "turn (away) because of shame")
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=trapat&direct=se
the Greek word entrope εντροπή means also "shame", "turning towards"; modern greek ντροπή.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3De)ntroph%2F
similar to "entropy" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/entropy
http://www.wordreference.com/gren/%CE%BD%CF%84%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%80%CE%AE
A similar root is the one of Latin "turba"
Probably from Ancient Greek τύρβη (túrbē, “tumult, disorder, turmoil”), from Proto-Indo-European *(s)twer-, *(s)tur- (“to rotate, swirl, twirl, move around”); related to English storm.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/turba#Latin
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dtu%2Frbh
Maybe comparable (using the **trb type) to Sum. dub [TREMBLE] (186x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. dub2; dub "to tremble, make tremble; to push away, down; to smash, abolish" Akk. napāşu
Giacomo's posts about the possibility of a **dlk origin
Yes :) .
I would like to add another suggestion using a similar pattern; more precisely a **trp one, (similar to *terp) for this Sum. word:
Very good :D ! .
Sum. dub [TREMBLE] (186x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. dub2; dub "to tremble, make tremble .
Yes possible ! :) .
Also I would say that a dlk** root for "sweet", if inversed, looks like the krt like of Drav. kuruti etc and finally the "mlt" of *melit for "honey". Yet, as I've said before maybe this inversion is more about some evolvement of a reduplicated ancient root like **kwe (like kwVkw-), which seems to have to do with "circle, round, running, flowing" etc (flowing here as of a thick liquid).
About Skt. trapate Mayrhofer thinks of a TRAP Skrt. root (from *trep); yet he wonders about a possible connection to Latin trepidus "nervous, jumpy, agitated, perilous, alarming", from Proto-Indo-European *terkʷ- (“to turn”). See torqueō.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/trepidus
a reduplicated ancient root like **kwe (like kwVkw-), which seems to have to do with "circle, round, running, flowing" etc (flowing here as of a thick liquid).
I suspect similar Kyriakos ! :) .
Mayrhofer thinks of a TRAP Skrt. root (from *trep); yet he wonders about a possible connection to Latin trepidus "nervous, jumpy, agitated, perilous, alarming", from Proto-Indo-European *terkʷ- (“to turn”).
I understand .
There are also some similar roots (like *trep) in Greek:
For example, the one concerning this word:
στρέφω (stréphō): "to twist, to turn"
From Proto-Indo-European *strebʰ-; compare Proto-Germanic *struppōną (“to twist, writhe”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%84%CF%81%CE%AD%CF%86%CF%89
στροφή (strophḗ) means "turning, revolving, twisting"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%84%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%86%CE%AE#Ancient_Greek
like in English "catastrophy" ("turning down"); the verb is καταστρέφω katastréphō
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%B1%CF%83%CF%84%CF%81%CE%AD%CF%86%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
The comparison I am thinking now, concerning the notion of "twisting, turning", is with this Sum. word:
dub [KNEE] (55x: ED IIIb, Old Babylonian) wr. dub3; ze2-eb "knee"
Compared to a root like *strobʰ- of strophe, but possibly without the initial s, like *(s)trobʰ-, so like a **trp (with vocalisation of r), resembling also the trop- of τρόπος tropos.
Note also that the ze-eb (Emesal) type looks like the ze-eb for dug "sweet, good" etc.
The comparison I am thinking now, concerning the notion of "twisting, turning", is with this Sum. word:
dub [KNEE] (55x: ED IIIb, Old Babylonian) wr. dub3; ze2-eb "knee".
Makes sense ! :) .
Note also that the ze-eb (Emesal) type looks like the ze-eb for dug "sweet, good" etc.
Yes ! :) .
Hi Nirjhar,
Also the comparison of καταστροφή "cata-strophy" with "dub [TREMBLE] (186x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. dub2; dub "to tremble, make tremble; to push away, down; to smash, abolish" Akk. napāşu", concerning the notion "to push away, down; to smash, abolish" (like "turning down" looks also good, I think.
Of course, I agree :) .
Without being sure about it, look now an unexpected comparison (concerning the "round" notion).
with Turkish top = ball.
From Ottoman Turkish طوپ (top), from Old Turkic tōp, tolp.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/top#Turkish
Perhaps comparable , yes :) .
which made me think again of kanduka etc; :) btw, do you think that the IE word for "knee" ( < *ǵónu) could be connected to some root similar to *ken? (since a knee seems both "pointed" and "round"); at least some of the reflexes seem like *ken.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/%C7%B5%C3%B3nu
(since a knee seems both "pointed" and "round"); at least some of the reflexes seem like *ken.
Nice Kyriakos ! :D
:D
About kanduka and "ken again - that Old Turkic tōp, tolp remindem me also "τολύπη [tolype] “clew, ball of wool for spinning” and the clearly related Luwian/Hittite taluppa/i “lump, clod”"; the thinking of *ken compared to Sum. kinda "hairdresser, barber" made me think about a hair/wool-ball :D.
haha amazing! :D
About *ken (and something like **tlp or **trp), mind also that in Greek the main verb for "rub, gnaw, grind" etc is τρῑ́βω (trī́bō). Ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *terh₁- (“to rub”). Cognate with Latin tero.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dtri%2Fbw
btw, at Halloran's Lexicon (edition 2006) Sum. kinda is described also as "surgeon"
(I guess certainly a dentist, maybe also an orthopedic) :D
hahaha why not? :D .
Also "waste, ravage, wear out":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CF%81%CE%AF%CE%B2%CF%89\
Many root are seem to be from *ter; from *ter is also Skt. taruna etc, a word we have been talking about at Giacomo's posts; and *ken also is for "young" etc.
Yes! :).
Yeah, why not, Nirjhar? :D
I think I had a bit "homo ludens" mood today, sorry :)
I think that if we put *ter and *ken together (Starostin thought that -ken, as a root for "ashes", is just an extension of some other root - az-ken); also thinking about a reduplicated root, we could have a **ter-ken or **trkn and (on the opposite way) a **ken-ter or **kntr; the second one seems to be like kentron and the **kwenth- root we assume; the other one reminded me Tarquin (the Superbus), Etruscan Tarhuna
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Tarquinius_Superbus
which reminds "pride" maybe also the opposite "shame, modesty" (like in Tamil eḷku (veḷki-) w"to be ashamed, be coy, bashful, fear, shudder, be perplexed"; and Kannada derivate beḷkane "to turn pale through fear" also cretan Velkhanos etc.
Don't pay much attention to this, though.
kind looks also like inda "tube" and Latin "tuba" looks like this dub words (it can be though totally unrelated); anyway, according to Wikipedia tuba is "Possibly connected to tibia (“shinbone, reed-pipe”) with similarities in meaning and form."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tuba#Latin
Concerning tibia > "Meaning may have evolved from "stalk, reed pipe" to shinbone, the latter being used by Pliny and later authors; flutes were originally made from shinbones. Possibly connected to Ancient Greek σίφων (síphōn, “siphon, tube”) reflecting a hypothetical *twi- root, and the irregular forms suggest a non-Indo-European loan source. There are no solid IE cognates outside of the Greek word.
On the other hand, inda "tube" has the equivalent mud "tube, socket" which in Akkadian is "uppu"; and Akk. uppu seems like Akk. ţuppu "(clay) tablet, document, letter" which is a rendering of Sum. dub with the same meaning; also Sum. dub "tablet" etc seems like Gr. τύπος typos and Gr. typos looks like στύπος stypos, meaning "stem, stump, block"; and another Sum. mud means "stump".
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dstu%2Fpos1
also Sum. dub "tablet" etc seems like Gr. τύπος typos and Gr. typos looks like στύπος stypos, meaning "stem, stump, block"; and another Sum. mud means "stump". .
Very interesting .
About the possible connection to Sum. inda "tube" with a *ken root (like the one we have compared with Sum. kinda), I suspect that the followung ken root perhaps is involved:
*k̂en- English "empty / void, puny" (only greek und armenian)
Arm. sin `leer, eitel', gr. hom. κενε[ϝ]ός kenewos, kypr. κενευϝός, ion. κεινός keinos (*κενϝός) *kenwos= att. κενός kenos `leer, eitel'."empty / void, puny
maybe the k̂ (instead of just k) has something to do with the (assumed) dissapearance of k from a prievious form k̂inda; perhpas it was k̂inda > sinda (like the armenian), then hinda > inda? Not sure about that. But certainly a "tube" is round and void / empty.
A similar word (yet belonging to a different root) is Skrt. śūnya "blank, deserted
empty, void, destitute of".
Formed from Proto-Indo-European *ḱówH-, related to Latin cavus (“hollow”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%B6%E0%A5%82%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF#Sanskrit
Latin cavus is from here:
From Proto-Indo-European *ḱówHwos (“cavity”) (compare Irish cúas (“hollow, cavity”), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱewH- (“to swell”) (compare Tocharian B kor (“throat”), Albanian cup (“odd, uneven”), Ancient Greek κύαρ (kúar, “eye of needle, earhole”), Old Armenian սոր (sor, “hole”), Sanskrit शून्य (śūnya, “empty, barren, zero”)) + *-wós.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cavus#Latin
Mayrhofer also has *ḱuH-n- as the root of śūnya.
Do you think we can compare it to the folowing Sum. word?
sug [EMPTY] (863x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian) wr. sug4 "(to be) empty; (to be) naked; to cut clear, strip" Akk. erû; urrû; riāqu
since we have concluded, at Giacomo's posts, that there are also "satem" forms among the Sumerian; here we could have, maybe, sug < *ḱuH, with a s < ḱ and a fortition of H to g; there is also a writing su [logogramm = sug4 (su3)].
Same root at ToB:
Proto-IE: *k'awǝ-
Meaning: hollow
Old Indian: śū́na- n. `emptiness, lack', śūnyá- `empty, void'
Avestan: sūra- m. `Loch, lacuna'
Other Iranian: NPers sūrāx `Loch'
Armenian: sun, sor `Loch', soil `Höhle'
Old Greek: *kówo-s: pl. kóoi̯ `cavity in the earth' Hsch.; kôi̯lo-, aeol. and att. kóilo- 'hohl, augehöhlt, geräumig, tief', kō̂o-s m. `Höhle, Gefängnis', kǘar n. `Nadelöhr, Ohröffnung'
Slavic: *sūjь(jь)
Baltic: *čā̂w-ā̂ (2) f. (? *čeuw-ā̂)
Latin: cavus `hohl, nach innen gewölbt, konkav', cavum, -ī n. `Höhlung'; Rom *covus: Port covo `hohl' etc.; caverna f. `Höhle, Loch, Grotte; Himmelsgewölbe'
Celtic: *kou̯io- > MIr cūa `hohl', cūass `Höhle', Bret kéo `Grotte'
Albanian: ɵeɫɛ `tief'
Russ. meaning: полый
References: WP I 365 f
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=++1504&root=config
About Gr. stypos for "stump" etc, this is the root given by Wikipedia:
Etymology[edit]
*(s)tewp
Extended from *(s)tew- (“to push, hit”).
Root[edit]
*(s)tewp-
to push, to stick
Derived terms[edit]
Terms derived from the PIE root *(s)tewp- *tewp- (root present)
Indo-Iranian:
Indo-Aryan:
Sanskrit: तोपति (topati)
*tup-ye- (zero-grade ye-present)
Hellenic: *tupťō
Ancient Greek: τύπτω (túptō)
*stup-eh₁-(ye)- (stative)
Italic: *stupēō
Latin: stupeō
*tup-os
Hellenic:
Ancient Greek: τύπος (túpos)
*stup-os ~ *stup-es-
Hellenic:
Ancient Greek: στύπος (stúpos)
Also here:
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1903
other similar roots for "hit" etc:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/(s)tew-
Sum. mud "stump" could be an inversed (s)tVm ( = mYt) form.
Also Akkadian uppu looks like Sum. ub [CAVITY] (6x: Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. ub4 "cavity" Akk. huppu
and huppu seeems to be a variant of uppu:
ḫuppu (2) 1) a socket , a hole , a pit , a cavity ; 2) OB,MB (in fileds) : a snake-hole (?) ; 3) Sumerian origin
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=%E1%B8%ABuppu+%282%29&language=rawakkadian
from a prievious form k̂inda; perhpas it was k̂inda > sinda (like the armenian), then hinda > inda?
Interesting :) .
sug [EMPTY] (863x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian) wr. sug4 "(to be) empty; (to be) naked; to cut clear, strip" Akk. erû; urrû; riāqu
since we have concluded, at Giacomo's posts, that there are also "satem" forms among the Sumerian; here we could have, maybe, sug < *ḱuH, with a s < ḱ and a fortition of H to g; there is also a writing su [logogramm = sug4 (su3)]. .
I think its good ! :) .
Sum. mud "stump" could be an inversed (s)tVm ( = mYt) form.
Yes ! :) .
Also Akkadian uppu looks like Sum. ub [CAVITY] (6x: Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. ub4 "cavity" Akk. huppu
and huppu seeems to be a variant of uppu:
ḫuppu (2) 1) a socket , a hole , a pit , a cavity ; 2) OB,MB (in fileds) : a snake-hole (?) ; 3) Sumerian origin.
Looks related, yes :).
There is also KU [HOLE] wr. KU "hole" Akk. miqqu, that you have compared to this same root *ḱuH; the capital letters at this KU word indicate that it's not clear whether it was pronounced really "ku"; yet I think this might be the case; it's also an indication of both centum and satem versions existing inside Sumerian, even for the same root.
Yeah ,as we discussed before, its quite possible for both Satem and centum ,to left evidence there in Sumerian .
About the possibility of the inversion of a word, here of a mud word, it is possible, I think, that this is a result of some reduplication process: like mud > mud-mud > mudumudu resulting to dumudumu > dum-dum / dum / dub; something like that (or you can imagine the opposite process).
Yes its quite natural Kyriakos :) .
About the possibility of an inversion in "mud" words; today I have another idea, concerning again mud "rabid"; as it is stated also in Halloran's Lexicon, this word is written as SAR, which is the logogramm of sar "to run"; so one can say it's like a rushing / running behaviour, like the one of some wild animal attacking.
The curious thing I've noticed about this mud "rabid", especially if we assume a "mord-" word, like in Latin mordeo, is that, when inverted, it leads to a "drom-" word; which is identical to the root of Greek δρόμος dromos for "running, race":"
From Proto-Indo-European *drem- (“to run”) + -ος (-os); cognate with Sanskrit द्राति (drāti, “to run”) and Proto-Germanic *tradō (“way, track, spoor”). Related to δραμεῖν (drameîn), a suppletive aorist of τρέχω (trékhō, “to run”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%CF%81%CF%8C%CE%BC%CE%BF%CF%82
It' ultimately from one *der. In Sankrit the roots are DRA / DRAM.
Skt. drāti "to run, make haste":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF#Sanskrit
From Proto-Indo-European *drā-, *der- (“to walk, step, run”). Cognate with Proto-Germanic *tradō (“way, track, spoor”), Ancient Greek δρόμος (drómos, “race, running”) and perhaps Middle Armenian արտորալ (artoral, “to hurry, to make haste”).
Yes I agree :) .
Of course in Greek δρόμος dromos sounds also very close to τρόμος tromos "terror, extreme fear" from τρέμω tremo and *trem (about the other mud for "fear").
btw about Sum. kaš [RUNNER] (1809x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. kaš4; lu2kaš4 "runner, trotter, messenger; to run" Akk. lasāmu; šānû
do you think that the Skrt. word kāṣṭha "raceground" etc could be connected?
http://www.sanskrita.org/wiki/index.php?title=kASThA
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=raceground&direct=es&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
Nice again! :) . Its from ''kas 1 cl. 1. P. %{kasati} (Dha1tup. xx , 30) , to go , move , approach Naigh. ii , 14 ; (perf. %{cakAsa} = %{zuzubhe} Comm.) to beam , shine Nalo7d. ii , 2: Intens. %{canIkasIti} , %{canIkasyate} Pa1n2. 7-4 , 84 Vop. xxi , 10 (cf. %{kaz} , %{kaMs} , %{niH-kas} , and %{vi-kas}.)'' Probably ,
There is also ''kaS cl. 1. P. A1. %{kaSati} , %{-te} , to rub , scratch , scrape Pa1n2. 3-4 , 34 Naish.: A1. to rub or scratch one's self ChUp. (pr. p. A1. %{kaSamANa}) Vait. ; to itch (A1.) BhP. ; to rub with a touchstone , test , try Ka1s3. on Pa1n2. 7-2 , 22 ; to injure , hurt , destroy , kill Dha1tup. xvii , 34 ; to leap ib. xvii , 77 (v.l.): Caus. P. %{kASayati} , to hurt ib. xxxii , 121 (v.l.) ; [cf. Gk. $ , $.] &82557[265 ,2]''
Check Manfreds view , but yes it looks good! .
The notion about "rub, scratch, itch" etc seems good; there is also a Sum. kindu [PATH] wr. ki-in-du "path" Akk. ?
recalling a *ken root again; I think that the notion is just like in Greek τρίβος tribos (from τρίβω tribo = to rub) meaning mostly "worn or beaten track, path" (but also rubbing, socket, friction-joint; delay and bodily exercise.)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dtri%2Fbos
The notion about "rub, scratch, itch" etc seems good; there is also a Sum. kindu [PATH] wr. ki-in-du "path" Akk. ?
Yes interesting :) .
recalling a *ken root again; I think that the notion is just like in Greek τρίβος tribos (from τρίβω tribo = to rub) meaning mostly "worn or beaten track, path" (but also rubbing, socket, friction-joint; delay and bodily exercise.)
Of course :) .
I checked it at Mayrhofer's Lexicon, and he seems to agree that kaS about "rub, scratch, itch" is from karS "draw, tract, plough" etc; so we have another root with a "hidden" R.
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=karSi&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
I think karS is from *kwel [like *kwer], with words like cárati, calati carítra- foot karṣū́- furrow, kárṣati, kr̥ṣáti `ploughing etc', av. karša- m. n. `furrow', karšaiti `to drug a furrow; but you tell me :)
BTW karS looks like *k̑ers- 'to run, course'
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0947
Maybe this last root is a borrowing from Indic to the other branches. :)
More precisely from Indo-Iranian.
I checked it at Mayrhofer's Lexicon, and he seems to agree that kaS about "rub, scratch, itch" is from karS "draw, tract, plough" etc; so we have another root with a "hidden" R.
Okay.
I think karS is from *kwel [like *kwer], with words like cárati, calati carítra- foot karṣū́- furrow, kárṣati, kr̥ṣáti `ploughing etc', av. karša- m. n. `furrow', karšaiti `to drug a furrow; but you tell me :)
BTW karS looks like *k̑ers- 'to run, course'
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0947
I agree with you! :D
More precisely from Indo-Iranian.
Likely , yes.
About "scratch" etc thee is also this root in ToB:
Borean (approx.) : KVCV
Meaning : scratch, scrape
Eurasiatic : *ḳVSV
Afroasiatic : ? *guḥas-
Sino-Caucasian : *qVčV / *čVqV
Austric : *kVs
African (misc.) : Cf. Bantu *-kúc- 'to rub'.
Notes : For Afroasiatic cf. Dolg. *ḳwVŝ- (-ĉ-) 'scratch, scrape' (Sem., Omot., Chad.).
Reference : ND 1003, 1211 etc. (many roots); Guthrie 1186.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2feura%2fglobet&text_number=+++3&root=config
The root is (our very well known) *kes in IE.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=1559&root=config
Another similar Nostratic root:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=+++3&root=config
leads to another turkish *KAč- "run, flee"
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2falt%2fturcet&text_number=1380&root=config
Anyway, inside IE maybe *kes is connected too, I mean.
Of course! :).
At Hesychius there is a word κασάνεις = kasaneis = ἀνύεις anyeis. A Laconian (Spartan) word. ἀνύεις anyeis means "you reach something, you finish something, you come to an end about something etc"; obviously the word is κασάνω kasano.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Da)nu%2Fw
this κασάνω kasano reminded me the kasati "to go, move, approach" you have posted.
You have posted also at Giacomo's second post another satem proposal about Sum. sar from *kers (or *kars), I remembered now that Giacomo has already said that this root could be the the k'war root of carati, cakra, kars- etc; about sar proposed the *ser / *sar root of sarati "to run, flow, move". Maybe, though, *sar is indeed from *kers / *kars root, as you said; for example there is a word σάρσαι sarsai (most probably of Illyrian origin) meaning "carriages".
About kindu "path", there is also a Sumerian etymology, given in Halloran's Lexicon (edition 2006): ki-in-du; in-di3; ki-en-du = stretch of road; way, course, route; river bed; typical behaviour ('ground' + i3, 'impersonal verbal conjugation prefix', + 3rd person animate pronominal element + 'to walk' = 'the ground that one walks'; Akk., malaku(m) I.
About Sum kaš (Halloran has also kas) "runner, messenger, to run etc" and kāṣṭha etc, I remembered now a curious xi", let's say, Greek word, that is ξουθός xouthos "rapidly moving to and fro, nimble", also "chirruping or trilling larynx of the nightingale", "(of the bee), either nimble, or humming", "(of the sound) produced by a trilling larynx or vibrating wing", also "golden yellow" or even "red blood".
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dcouqo%2Fs
Maybe xouthos is related to the same notion of "run, swift" as kaš and kāṣṭha; maybe even the "golden yellow" is connected to the colour of the other "kaš = bier, urine"! :D.
this κασάνω kasano reminded me the kasati "to go, move, approach" you have posted.
Yes good comparison :).
for example there is a word σάρσαι sarsai (most probably of Illyrian origin) meaning "carriages".
Of course .
Maybe xouthos is related to the same notion of "run, swift" as kaš and kāṣṭha; maybe even the "golden yellow" is connected to the colour of the other "kaš = bier, urine"! :D.
! :D
So, perhaps *k(r)s and *kes are somehow connected due to the related notions of "move, run, path etc" and "rub", since by moving / running one is rubbing the ground; *kes is also used in Sanskrit and Greek for words like ksura / xyron for "razor". Another word related to Skrt. carati / caritra etc, as I have already proposed, is Sum. ĝiri "foot, path":
ĝiri [FOOT] (10822x: Lagash II, Ur III) wr. ĝiri3; me-ri; ĝiri16 "via, by means of, under the authority of someone; foot; path" Akk. šēpu
but also "razor, dagger" etc (due to a notion of "rub, scratch etc", like in *ken):
ĝiri [DAGGER] (198x: ED IIIb, Ebla, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ĝiri2; urudĝiri2; me2-er; me-er; me-ri "razor; sword, dagger" Akk. naglabu; patru
So, perhaps *k(r)s and *kes are somehow connected due to the related notions of "move, run, path etc" and "rub", since by moving / running one is rubbing the ground
Good idea :) .
The Gr. word κῑνέω (kīnéō) for "set in motion, move, stir" etc seems also similar to *ken for rub etc (I'm trying to imagine a connection between the roots).
From Proto-Indo-European *ḱey-. Compare κίω (kíō, “I go”) and κίνυμαι (kínumai, “I go, move”), Latin cieo "move".
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%B9%CE%BD%CE%AD%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
The connection looks good Kyriakos :) .
Halloran adds another meaning for Sum. ĝiri:
ĝiri5, ĝir5[KAŠ4]: n., refugee, stranger.
v., to run, trot; to seek refuge.
ĝiri16, ĝir16 [ĜÌR×KÁR]: fortress, refuge.
Without being sure about it, that reminded me a Gr. word κρησφύγετον krēsphúgeton "a place of refuge, retreat, resort":
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dkrhsfu%2Fgeton
The second part of this word -φυγ- -phug- is the same (or similar) with Latin "fuga" for "flee, escape etc". The first one κρησ- (krēs-), is uncertain; maybe connected το krs?.
Anyway, sometimes this krēs- is compared to the word for Crete Κρήτη.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%9A%CF%81%CE%AE%CF%84%CE%B7
The second part of this word -φυγ- -phug- is the same (or similar) with Latin "fuga" for "flee, escape etc". The first one κρησ- (krēs-), is uncertain; maybe connected το krs?.
Perhaps :) .
Reminding also Sum. kar [FLEE] (158x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. kar "to flee; to take away (by force), remove; to deprive; to save" Akk. ekēmu; eţēru; mašā'u; nērubu. I think we have talked about it before, though I am not sure for that.
Good remembrance ! :) .
Akkording to an hypothesis this "krēs-" is connected to an assumed "prēs-", connected also to πρός pros "towards":
http://etymology_el_en.enacademic.com/3988/%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%B7%CF%83%CF%86%E1%BD%BB%CE%B3%CE%B5%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%BD
I remembered now that Whittaker has compared Sum. karkid "prostitute" Akk. harīmtu
to the already mentioned *parikeh₂ (“concubine, wanton woman”), related to Avestan (pairikā, “demonic courtesan”) and Parthian parik.
Yup :).
Gr. πρός pros here:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%82
since Gr. προσφεύγω prospheugo means "to flee for refuge to":
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dprosfeu%2Fgw
Now, if par- < ? > kar- is valid, then karkid reminds me of this Gr. word:
παράκοιτις parakoitis "a wife, spouse" fem. of παρακοίτης" >
παρακοίτης parakoites "A.one who lies beside, bedfellow, husband"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dpara%2Fkoitis
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dparakoi%2Fths
from παρά para "next to" and κοίτη koite "bed"; παράκοιτις parakoitis translated as "bedfellow, one who lies beside".
παρά para "beside, next to" fro *per "around, through":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%AC
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/per
κοίτη koite "bed" is from κεῖμαι
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0073%3Aentry%3Dkoi%2Fth
κεῖμαι keimai "to lie" etc is "from Proto-Indo-European *ḱéytor, from *ḱey- (“to lie down”). Cognates include Latin cunae, cīvis, Old Armenian սէր (sēr), Hittite 𒆠𒀉𒋫𒊑, 𒆠𒀉𒁕𒊑 (kittari), and Sanskrit शेते (śḗtē)."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%B5%E1%BF%96%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%B9
maybe this kid is from a word like Hittite kittari?
Also, what about *parikeh₂ ? (-keh₂ like some centum form of *ḱey-?).
Also, two of the logogramms of Sum. karkid "prostitute" include the signs SAL = woman and UŠ ( = us2), this latter indicating us = "side, edge":
karkidx(|SAL.UŠ|)
(geme2)karkidx(|SAL.UŠ|)kar-kid3
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/e2856.html
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/e6260.html
Now, if par- < ? > kar- is valid, then karkid reminds me of this Gr. word:
παράκοιτις parakoitis "a wife, spouse" fem. of παρακοίτης" >
παρακοίτης parakoites "A.one who lies beside, bedfellow, husband"
Very good ! :)
maybe this kid is from a word like Hittite kittari?
Also, what about *parikeh₂ ? (-keh₂ like some centum form of *ḱey-?).
Both are agreeable suggestions .
kid, wr. (gi)kid; kid means "a (reed) mat" (Akk. kītu), fits also good for "bed".
Also, we have compered in Giacomo posts Sum. ki "ground, earth") with *ḱey-, κεῖμαι keimai etc, I think you have found also some satem word from this root.
About *parikeh₂, there is at Halloran's Lexiconsome other readings of karkid:
one is as "munus-kar-ke4; (munus)kar-kid: prostitute (B. Alster reads munus-kar-ke4") ('marketplace' + 'reed mat')." kar-ke4 looks good for parikeh₂.
karkid has also a second reading as "karekid" (referred in 2006 edition); Halloran;s etymology is from kar = marketplace and kid = reed mat; Akkadian karkittu(m) 'prostitute', harimtu(m), '(temple) prostitute'). karekid looks also good for the proposed comparisons.
kid, wr. (gi)kid; kid means "a (reed) mat" (Akk. kītu), fits also good for "bed". .
Yes :).
I am wandering now wether pallake and parikeh are connected etymologically or not.
As for the root *per (an *ter btw), I think that they have evolved from a **ker (kwer); one can say also **kar (par and tar).
But certainly I would say that a "per se" root *parikeh₂ seems quite unlikely.
Yes I agree .
Also Halloran interprates very interestingly the writing of Sum. kar "harbor etc", as TE.A ( the logogramms for "near" and "water"); that's good about the notion of "near"; also, maybe this implies (that's an assumption of mine) that the "a" water was initially more like "ar" and this r was silenced later, for some reason; or maybe it was pronounced lightely like in French.
I was thinking about a comparison of a; if from a(r) to Skrt. vāri "water".
Yeah, vAri is said to be from ''vAr n. (said to be fr. 1. %{vR}) water RV. &c. &c. (n. pl. once in BhP. %{vAras} , as if m. or f. ; %{vArAM@nidhiH} , `" receptacle of waters "' , the ocean Prab.) ; stagnant water , a pond RV. iv , 19 , 4 ; viii , 98 , 8 ; ix , 112 , 4 ; m. (?) a protector , defender , i , 132 , 3 ; x , 93 , 3. [Cf. , accord. to some , Gk. $ ; Lat. &285912[943 ,1] {urina} , {urinari}.]''
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/urina#Etymology
https://www.etymonline.com/word/urine
Root from here:
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0136
vāri here:
From Proto-Indo-Iranian [Term?], from Proto-Indo-European *ur, *uh₁r-. Compare Avestan (vār), Latin ūrīna, ūrīnārī, Ancient Greek οὖρον (oûron), ούρα (oúra), Old English ūrig (“moist”), Old Prussian wurs (“pool”), perhaps Old Armenian գայռ (gayṙ, “mud”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8D#Sanskrit
Also, maybe Tocharian wär (Tocharian B wa).
Another Sum. "a" is a[ARM] (6115x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. a2 "arm; labor; wing; horn; side; strength; wage; power" Akk. ahu; idu
and one could say that "arm" fits well too (from h₂er-):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82er-
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0104
Especially since Whittaker thinks that hamun [HARMONY] (12x: ED IIIa, Old Babylonian) wr. ha-mun "harmony" Akk. mithurtu is of the same origin with ἁρμονίᾱ (harmoníā) "harmony", even without a "r".
Pokorny Etymon: 9. au̯(e)-, au̯e d-, au̯e r- 'to wet, flow, sprinkle; water, river, etc.'
Another Sum. "a" is a[ARM] (6115x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. a2 "arm; labor; wing; horn; side; strength; wage; power" Akk. ahu; idu
and one could say that "arm" fits well too (from h₂er-):
Yes very nice! :D .
Especially since Whittaker thinks that hamun [HARMONY] (12x: ED IIIa, Old Babylonian) wr. ha-mun "harmony" Akk. mithurtu is of the same origin with ἁρμονίᾱ (harmoníā) "harmony", even without a "r". .
Yes its quite possible , I think .
Voncerning "strength" and "power", it fits also well for Arya (one of the of the proposed roots is h₂er-) :)
Also the "horn" to latin aries "ram" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/aries#Latin :D
Yeah :) .
For "wage, labor" I am thinking about a Gr. word ἄρος aros:
ἄρος [α^], εος, τό, aros A.use, profit, help, f.l. in A.Supp.885, cf. Hsch., Eust.1422.19; cf. ἄρ-νυμαι. 2. = κοιλὰς ἐν αἷς ὕδωρ ἀθροίζεται ὁμόριον, Hsch. 3. = ἀκούσιον βλάβος, Id.; cf. ἀπαρές, ἀπηρής.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Da)%2Fros
from ἄρνυμαι arnymai lengthd. form of αἴρομαι airomai used only in pres. and imperf.
"to receive for oneself, reap, win, gain, earn, esp. of honour or reward"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Da)%2Frnumai
Also αἴρω airo "to raise, lift up" - αἴρομαι airomai "I'm raised up" etc
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dai)%2Frw
perhaps fits also well for "wing" :D (this comparison has already been made here).
For power and strenght, there is also a root about life force and vitality (*aiu̯-, ai̯u-)
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0046
Also αἴρω airo "to raise, lift up" - αἴρομαι airomai "I'm raised up" etc
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dai)%2Frw
perhaps fits also well for "wing" :D (this comparison has already been made here).
Excellent Kyriakos! :D .
For power and strenght, there is also a root about life force and vitality (*aiu̯-, ai̯u-)
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0046 .
Yeah :) .
I suppose this is a rare Sum. word, Nirjhar:
endib [COOK] (1x: ED IIIa) wr. endib "cook" Akk. nuhatimmu
I think that the "normal" Sum. word for "cook" is "muhaldim".
This "endib" must be from en = "master" and "dib" which is not clear what it is.
The suggestion is for this IE root:
*deh₂p- "to sacrifice, to lose"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/deh%E2%82%82p-
Extension of *deh₂- (“to divide”); from this it's Latin daps = A sacrificial or solemn feast, religious banquet. A meal, banquet, feast.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/deh%E2%82%82p-
daps: From Proto-Indo-European *dh₂ps (“portion, sacrificial meal”). Cognate with Ancient Greek δαπάνη (dapánē, “expenditure”), δάπτω (dáptō, “I devour”), Old Armenian տաւն (tawn, “feast”), Old Norse tafn (“sacrifice”). Akin to damnum (“loss, expense”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/daps#Latin
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/daps#Latin
Another Greek root has been also compared to this root: δεῖπνον deipnon "meal".
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%CE%B5%E1%BF%96%CF%80%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%BD
So, perhaps endib is the "master of the meal or the feast".
So, perhaps endib is the "master of the meal or the feast".
Once again very good Kyriakos! :D .
Thanks Nirjhar :)
*deh₂- means “to divide”; and, according to Halloran, the other Sum. word for "(chief) cook" = "muhaldim" is from "mu" = "to mill, chop, grind, burn" (or "mu" = woman) + hal "to divide, portion" + dim "to fashion, create".
Note also that in the Akkadian form of this same word as "nuhattimmu" we have a loss of l (of muhaldim); this is another indication of a l/r loss sometimes in these languages, I guess.
Another extension of *deh₂ (“to share, divide”) is *deh₂y-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/deh%E2%82%82y-
*deh₂y-[1]: to share, divide, with derived terms like Greek δαίς (daís), δαῖσις (daîsis), δαιτύς (daitús), δαιτυμών (daitumṓn), δαιτρός (daitrós), δαιτρόν (daitrón), all having to do with feast - banquet etc, like δαίς (daís) "banquet, feast" from δαίνῡμι (daínūmi, “to feast”):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%CE%B1%CE%AF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
Another word from this root is δαίμων (daímōn) "god, goddess quotations, divine power, deity quotations, guardian spirit (Latin genius), and so one's fate, destiny, fortune etc".
From δαίομαι (daíomai, “to divide”) + -μων (-mōn), from Proto-Indo-European *deh₂-i- (“to divide, cut”). For similar semantic development compare Old Persian (baga, “god”), Sanskrit भग (bhága, “dispenser, patron”) (usually applied to gods) beside Avestan (baga-, “part”) and Sanskrit भजति (bhájati, “to divide, apportion”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%CE%B1%CE%AF%CE%BC%CF%89%CE%BD#Ancient_Greek
The root of bhág and bhájati, “to divide, apportion” is bʰeh₂g- (or bʰag-) "to divide, distribute, allot" :
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/b%CA%B0eh%E2%82%82g-
I think that one similar (not exactly matched though) Sumerian word with *bʰag- "to divide, distribute, allot" seems to this:
ba [ALLOT] (839x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. ba "to divide into shares, share, halve; to allot" Akk. qiāšu; zâzu
(As if there was some arckaic root like "ba" and this "bʰag-" is a kind of its extension -like bʰa-g- as with *deh₂- and *deh₂p- ).
I think that one similar (not exactly matched though) Sumerian word with *bʰag- "to divide, distribute, allot" seems to this:
ba [ALLOT] (839x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. ba "to divide into shares, share, halve; to allot" Akk. qiāšu; zâzu
(As if there was some arckaic root like "ba" and this "bʰag-" is a kind of its extension -like bʰa-g- as with *deh₂- and *deh₂p- ).
Very good suggestion :) .
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0183
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0314
https://www.etymonline.com/word/-phagous
Dravidian here:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fdrav%2fdravet&text_number=1159&root=config
Another Gr. word, similar -in meaning and form- to δάπτω dáptō “devour” is κάπτω káptō, "to gulp down":
From Proto-Indo-European *kh₂p-yé-ti, ye-present from the root *keh₂p- (“seize, grab”). Cognates include Old English hebban and habban (English heave and have), Latin capiō, and Old Armenian խափանեմ (xapʿanem).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%AC%CF%80%CF%84%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
As you remember, there is also a Sum. word dab [SEIZE] (8723x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. dab5; dab; dab5-dab5; dabx(|LAGAB×GUD|) "to seize, take, hold; to bind; to envelop, overwhelm; to choose (by extispicy); to accept; to take charge of" Akk. sahāpu; tamāhu; kamû; şabātu.
So I'm thinking that "sharing and seizing" is the same thing (one gives - the other takes), and are both connected with food, like δάπτω dáptō “devour” and κάπτω káptō, meaning the same thing.
Also, concerning the Sum - IE comparison, Sum. dab looks morphologically similar to the root of Lat. daps, yet semantically is close to the root of Lat. capio.
Maybe these two roots *kh₂p and *deh₂p share a common origin?
Maybe these two roots *kh₂p and *deh₂p share a common origin? .
I find it logical :) .
It is also connected (inevitably, I think) to our conversation at the second column of this post (on October 15th) about Latin capio and Sum. dab etc; and I remembered now again nagara, because at the beginning of this post you made a reference about the verb gara "to devour" etc :D
So, imagine something like: "we are all united in a house (maybe a sacred one like a temple, also most probably in a circle), eating - enjoying the meal (perhaps after some sacrifice - most probably in a feast), after sharing and grasping / taking the food".
There is also another Gr. verb, of a similar meaning to δάπτω dapto, that is δαρδάπτω dardapto: "devour", perhaps dissim. from δαρ-δṛπτω, cf. δρέπω.）"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Ddarda%2Fptw
It could be also connected to δάπτω, I think. On the other hand the possibly connected δρέπω drepo means "to pluck, cull, Lat. carpo" - also a kind of "grasping, seizing"; the difference between capio and carpo I think lies to this "r"; δάπτω and its root *deh₂-p-t could be also from a root like "δṛ-π-τω" with a vocalisation of r; δρέπω is said to be ultimately from *der "to split" etc (*derp- < dr-ep < dr < *der - again a p extension.)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Ddre%2Fpw
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/der-
On the other hand carpo is from *kerp; ultimately from *(s)ker:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/kerp-
Also, Gr. καρπός karpos "fruit, harvest" (from "(s)ker-p) etc and καρπός karpos "wrist" (from (s)kwer-p "to turn") are identical; so, we are returning always to a kind of **kwar root with several alterations / modifications and extensions.
So, imagine something like: "we are all united in a house (maybe a sacred one like a temple, also most probably in a circle), eating - enjoying the meal (perhaps after some sacrifice - most probably in a feast), after sharing and grasping / taking the food".
That's a beautiful notion Kyriakos! :) .
It could be also connected to δάπτω, I think. On the other hand the possibly connected δρέπω drepo means "to pluck, cull, Lat. carpo" - also a kind of "grasping, seizing"; the difference between capio and carpo I think lies to this "r"; δάπτω and its root *deh₂-p-t could be also from a root like "δṛ-π-τω" with a vocalisation of r; δρέπω is said to be ultimately from *der "to split" etc (*derp- < dr-ep < dr < *der - again a p extension.)
Yes .
Also, Gr. καρπός karpos "fruit, harvest" (from "(s)ker-p) etc and καρπός karpos "wrist" (from (s)kwer-p "to turn") are identical; so, we are returning always to a kind of **kwar root with several alterations / modifications and extensions.
I agree with you!.
Hi Nirjhar,
Another Gr. word about meal etc is δόρπον dorpon: in Hom. the evening meal, whether called dinner or supper, Lat. coena:—later, generally, a meal, Hhymn. deriv. uncertain
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Ddo%2Frpon
One could say it's from a kind of **derp root, resembling to *drep; I think it could be also connected with *dehp (maybe as a kind of **drp?), which might be connected with *der. Also, as an outcome of what I have mentioned above, there could be also a connection between *(s)kwer-p "to turn" and *drep, and this assumed *derp could match better, I think > maybe as a kind of an iranian style d < gw or kw, as the ones we have been talking about before.
Also, about the possible connection of "turning" and "meal": Halloran has another reading of the word for "cook" as: endub, endib: cook (en, 'lord' + dub, 'to move in a circle, shake')[ENDIB archaic frequency: 6]
This *drep /*derp reminds me this Sanskrit word :
''darpaNa m. (g. %{nandy-Adi}) `" causing vanity "' , a mirror Hariv. 8317 R. ii S3ak. &c. ; ifc. `" Mirror "' (in names of works) e.g. %{AtaGka-} , %{dAna-} , %{sAhitya-} ; = %{dAna-} Smr2itit. iv ; N. of a measure (in music) ; of a mountain (seat of Kubera) , Ka1IP. ; of Siva MBh. xiii , 1194 ; n. the eye L. ; repetition VarBr2S. iii , 11 Sch. ; kindling W. ; Nom. P. %{-Nati} , to represent a mirror.''
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=darpa&direct=au
Very interesting :) the notion of "vanity, pride, kindling" could be connected, I think, to a notion of "burning, consuming". There is in Greek another word δαίω daio (identical with δαίω for "sharing") meaning "burn"; compared usually to Skt. dunóti 'burn'.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Ddai%2Fw1
If δαίω for sharing etc, could be connected to a **drep / *derp ultimately, maybe darpa could be connected, too (I mean, maybe the two δαίω verbs could share a common origin, if not being the same ("burn" fits also well for cooking, imo).
the comparison of dunoti and δαίω daio for "burning" here; it's another root dāu-, dǝu-, dū̆- in Pokorny (maybe also connexted to deH?):
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=dunoti&direct=au
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2Fdata%2Fie%2Fpiet&text_number=++1863&root=config
In Greek there is also a verb θάλπω (thálpō) "I warm up, I heat", with unknown etymology.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B8%CE%AC%CE%BB%CF%80%CF%89
the notion of "vanity, pride, kindling" could be connected, I think, to a notion of "burning, consuming". There is in Greek another word δαίω daio (identical with δαίω for "sharing") meaning "burn"; compared usually to Skt. dunóti 'burn'.
Very interesting , yes :) .
the comparison of dunoti and δαίω daio for "burning" here; it's another root dāu-, dǝu-, dū̆- in Pokorny (maybe also connexted to deH?)
Very nice :) .
In Greek there is also a verb θάλπω (thálpō) "I warm up, I heat", with unknown etymology.
Looks good :D
About "mirror", it looks also strangely connected to *derḱ- "to see" :D
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/der%E1%B8%B1-
True :) .
Yeah, there is also a very interesting alternative comparison of Gr. δόρπον dorpon "meal, dinner" to Alb. darkë "supper, dinner, evening meal, feast etc":
From Proto-Albanian *darkā, from Proto-Indo-European *dorkw-o-. Cognate to Ancient Greek δόρπον (dórpon, “supper, dinner; evening”). Has entered the declension of the feminine ā-stems. According to A. Lubotsky and M. de Vaan, considering the distribution of the term, both Greek and Albanian strongly suggest borrowings from an old Balkan substrate source.[1]
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dark%C3%AB
The comparison is good and the word structure of the root is evident .
zabar [BRONZE] (810x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. zabar; zabar3 "(to be) bright, pure; arrowhead; weapon; metal mirror; (to be) shiny; measuring vessel made of bronze; a metal bowl; bronze"
We have discussed it, I think, but not sure , if the above can be fitted into our current focus :).
Yes, I was thinking also (looking at the comparisons of δαίω "burn" above) about Sum. tab [BURN] (13x: Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. tab; tab2 "to burn, fire; to dye (red); to brand, mark" Akk. hamāţu; šamātu; şarāpu.
On the other hand, about *derḱ-, there is a word δράκος drakos, which means "eye"; but another δράκος drakos means also "handful"; from δράσσομαι drassomai, "to grasp" (I think from a root *dregh-, like "drachma"). https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0348
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=dra/kos
so, we have another connected word for grasp, seize etc.
That's why I think mant times that there is some archaic word like a reduplication of kwe(r)kw-e(r) for such roots.
There is also an Albanian word tokë f "land, earth, world; ground, floor" (alternative form trokë), which is compared to greek topos topos "place":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tok%C3%AB
A substrate word, close to Ancient Greek τόπος (tópos, “place”) (cf. darkë vs. δόρπον (dórpon, “supper, dinner; evening”), bajgë vs. βολβός (volvós, “bulb”) etc.), with a proto-form *tò-kʷV- or *tòw-kʷV- (compare the second part of ndërtoj). The alternative form trokë has probably been influenced by truall, plural troje "land, place". An ancient loan from a substrate source, close to Hittite (tēkan), [script needed] (tagnās) has also been proposed based on phonetic grounds.
I think that the alternative trokë reminds in form the Gr. τρόπος tropos "turning", "way" etc and *trep. The connection with tēkan also interesting.
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