A **negwh- for "cloud, moisture" resembles also to Sum. naĝ for "drink"; if we have a n/l change, and ĝ as gwh > ph, reminds also of the laph- in Gr. λαφύσσω (laphússō, “swallow, gulp down”); like in Arm. լափեմ (lapʿem) (transitive) to lap up, to lick up (transitive, figuratively) to eat up greedily, to devour, to consume: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D5%AC%D5%A1%D6%83%D5%A5%D5%B4
reminds also of the laph- in Gr. λαφύσσω (laphússō, “swallow, gulp down”); like in Arm. լափեմ (lapʿem) (transitive) to lap up, to lick up (transitive, figuratively) to eat up greedily, to devour, to consume:
Another possible connection is between balaĝ [INSTRUMENT] (154x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. balaĝ; [ĝeš]balaĝ "a large drum or harp" Akk. balangu, and nab [MUSICIAN] (5x: ED IIIb) wr. nab "a musician" Akk. nāru, having also in mind νάβλα nabla "a kind of Phoenician harp": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabla_symbol
Not sure, but about guz [TUFTED] (110x: ED IIIa, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. guz "to be tufted", a kind of KRS word comparison (like with guza "seat", Akk. kussû possibly from < kurs-) could be with Gr. κρόσσαι krossai or κροσσοί krossoi "tassels, fringe": http://etymology_el_en.enacademic.com/4007/%CE%BA%CF%81%E1%BD%B9%CF%83%CF%83%CE%B1%CE%B9 and krossotos κροσσωτός "tasselled, fringed": http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*k%3Aentry+group%3D172%3Aentry%3Dkrosswto%2Fs maybe from *kors-; yet of unknown origin.
Hi Nirjhar, krossai means also "battlements of the walls", which could be compared also to teeth, I think; maybe there is a notion of "cutting" here (maybe this was the initial meaning of the word for chair, seat? I wonder. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dkro%2Fssai
ašte [CHAIR] (2x: Old Babylonian) wr. ašte2; ĝešaš-te; ĝešiš-de3 "chair, throne; seat, dwelling; shrine, chapel; a unit of area" Akk. kussû; sukku; šubtu seems something wider than just "chair, throne"; the menaning of "dwelling" leads to a possible comparison with वास्तु (vā́stu) n "the site or foundation of a house, site, ground, building or dwelling-place, habitation, homestead, house; an apartment, chamber" most probably connected also to Gr. ἄστῠ (ástu) "a town, city" etc. From ϝάστυ (wástu), from Proto-Hellenic *wástu, with possible connection with Sanskrit वस्तु (vastu, “house”), Latin verna, Tocharian A waṣt and Tocharian B ost. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%84%CF%83%CF%84%CF%85#Ancient_Greek (If we have compared it before, sorry for the repetition).
krossai means also "battlements of the walls", which could be compared also to teeth, I think; maybe there is a notion of "cutting" here (maybe this was the initial meaning of the word for chair, seat?
That's a very interesting notion :) .
a possible comparison with वास्तु (vā́stu) n "the site or foundation of a house, site, ground, building or dwelling-place, habitation, homestead, house; an apartment, chamber" most probably connected also to Gr. ἄστῠ (ástu) "a town, city" etc. From ϝάστυ (wástu), from Proto-Hellenic *wástu, with possible connection with Sanskrit वस्तु (vastu, “house”), Latin verna, Tocharian A waṣt and Tocharian B ost.
I know there is also aste in Sankrit "to sit, to dwell" etc http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=aste&direct=se probably from an evolution of *h₁es- "to be"; with a meaning "to sit, to dwell".
I know there is also aste in Sankrit "to sit, to dwell" etc http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=aste&direct=se probably from an evolution of *h₁es- "to be"; with a meaning "to sit, to dwell" In Greek there is ἧμαι heemai, 2nd pers. ἧσαι heesai, 3rd. person ἧσται heestai ((I.-E. ēs-, cf. Skt. āste (= ἧσται) 'sits'; aspirate borrowed from ἵζω hizo, ἕζομαι hezomai.
I was wondering tonight if there could be some connection with *dʰéh₁s m (oblique stem dʰh₁s-) "god, godhead, deity; sacred place"; supposing *dʰ- < **gwh-, and these *h₁es- and wástu from **gwh (through this lenition of the velar); also wástu looks quite like Akkad. bāštu and Lat. festus we were talking about already (the notion is about "sanctuary", rites, feast etc, but the root of *dʰéh₁s means "to do, to put, to place" ).
ToB has Proto-IE: *wastu- (Gr w-) Meaning: "king's palace, capital" [maybe something "king's "seat"?]; also apart from Tocharian, Indic and Greek has also Celtic *wasto-: Gaul Dago-vassus; *vassus > MLat vasus `Diener, Vasall'; MIr foss `Diener'; OCymr guas `Jüngling, Diener', NCymr gwas `Jüngling, Diener', Corn duas `Jüngling, Diener', Bret gwaz `Mann': http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=1235&root=config In Pokorny's Lexicon astu is among the other words of the Root *u̯es-1 "to stay, live, spend the night", among which also "was", arm. goy "is" etc which, according ToB belong to the root *(a)wes- "to dwell, to be": http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=1462&root=config
I don't know about Sanskrit, but Gr. ἧμαι (hêmai) is in middle voice, meaning "I am seated" ("I put/set myself at a seat"), so the -ται tai in ἧσται (hêstai) is the third person singular ending ("he/she is seated"). Also I noticed that Pokorny thinks that Gr. (w)astu for town must be a kind of loanword, maybe from Indic?
So, it's Mayrhofer, not Pokorny. Pokorny, on the other hand compares celtic guas with Old Indian upaḫsthānaḫm `service', úpaḫsti-, upa-stí- m. `subordinate, servant' compare mir. foss `servant' (*upo-sto-), cymr. bret. gwas, corn. guas ds., gall. PN Vasso-rīx etc., mlat. vassus, vassallus < root stā-.
gwas, guas etc reminded me Sum. ušga [YOUTH] (8x: Ur III) wr. uš-ga "attendant; youth", Akk. gerseqqû "palace, temple attendant"; uškû "youth, servant"; but in a reversed form.
Also, if you remember, there is also uzga [PRIEST] (7x: Old Akkadian, Old Babylonian) wr. uz-ga; uzug5; u2-si18-gi; uz3-ga; uzug; uzug2; uzug3; uzug4; uzugx; u2-zug4 "a type of priest" and uzga [TREASURE] (480x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. uz-ga; uz-ga-še3; uzugx(KA); uz-ga-ta; uzug; uz3-ga; us-ga-ne; us-ga; uz-ga-ne; uzugx(|AN.ZAG|); usagx(|U.ŠA|); sausagx(|U.ŠA|); sausagx(|U.ŠA|)ki "cella, shrine; goods, treasure; treasury" Akk. sagû; sukku which look like "guza" upside-down :D
Also, if you remember, there is also uzga [PRIEST] (7x: Old Akkadian, Old Babylonian) wr. uz-ga; uzug5; u2-si18-gi; uz3-ga; uzug; uzug2; uzug3; uzug4; uzugx; u2-zug4 "a type of priest" and uzga [TREASURE] (480x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. uz-ga; uz-ga-še3; uzugx(KA); uz-ga-ta; uzug; uz3-ga; us-ga-ne; us-ga; uz-ga-ne; uzugx(|AN.ZAG|); usagx(|U.ŠA|); sausagx(|U.ŠA|); sausagx(|U.ŠA|)ki "cella, shrine; goods, treasure; treasury" Akk. sagû; sukku which look like "guza" upside-down :D
Also, the writing of uzga "treasure" as "uzugx(KA)" (zuh) is the same with "zuh" for "steal", which I have compared at Giacomo's first post to *(s)tāi- "to conceal; to steal" of Pokorny and Skrt. . stāyú-, tāyú- `thief' etc; and this *(s)tāi- looks close to stā- for "stand" :D I am wondering though about the derivation of this root *sta- ....
For example तिष्ठति (tíṣṭhati) has meanings about duration, existence, firmness etc https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%B7%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A0%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF#Sanskrit; Gr. ῐ̔́στημῐ (hístēmi) is supposed to be derived from some reduplication of *steh₂- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%B5%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B7%CE%BC%CE%B9#Ancient_Greek I wonder if in the case of hístēmi we do not have to deal with a reduplication of "stā-" but some older root like **Hs-to (like in the mentioned root of "sit" *(h)es- with a meaning perhaps of of something "set, put", which was simplified later... Anyway the word "existence" is from the some root stā- or *steh₂- (as also Gr. hypostasis).
There is also "steal" connected to Skr. त्सर् (tsar) "to sneak, to creep on, to go or approach stealthily" "https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8D#Sanskrit https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/stelan%C4%85 this *tsel- (“to sneak”) is weird, though... the connection of steal with "sneak", opens the possibility of a meaning like "creep, crawl" (fit for burglars) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/sn%C4%ABkan%C4%85 with a notion of extending, perhaps; we have seen already the notions of "standing" and servant as "standing by"; though a meaning of "servant" was connected also to a notion of "turning" (< *kwel).... I remembered now that nagara / nakar is also a word we have seen a meaning of "town, palace, stronghold" and "creeping" too :D
the connection of steal with "sneak", opens the possibility of a meaning like "creep, crawl" (fit for burglars) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/sn%C4%ABkan%C4%85 with a notion of extending, perhaps; we have seen already the notions of "standing" and servant as "standing by"; though a meaning of "servant" was connected also to a notion of "turning" (< *kwel).... I remembered now that nagara / nakar is also a word we have seen a meaning of "town, palace, stronghold" and "creeping" too :D
zuh for "steal" is also written with the same sign for zu "teeth" (zu2); maybe there was a connection with the notion of "cut", too (nagar "carpenter" could be connected to sem. qara. for cutting etc). This is also the *tsel root (creep, sneak etc) in ToB, Pokorny etc: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=2430&root=config
Now, Mayrhofer connects with tsar another word for "thief" taskara: http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=taskara&direct=se https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/taskara
In Sumerian there is a word taškarin [BOXWOOD] (82x: ED IIIb, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. [ĝeš]taškarin; taškarin "box tree, boxwood" Akk. taskarinnu Sp. Saksrit above there are taskara = myna tree [Vangueria Spinosa] also taskara Shoebutton plant [Ardisia humili], also taskara = sicklefruit fenugreek [Trigonella Corniculata]; maybe it is a coincidence, but it looks quite similar. ePSD has some Sum. homonyms, like taškarin [KING] wr. [ĝeš]taskarin "king", taškarin [LUXURIANT] wr. [ĝeš]taskarin "luxuriant", taškarin [PURE] (2x: Old Babylonian) wr. [ĝeš]taskarin "pure" and taškarin [TALL] wr. [ĝeš]taskarin "tall", which are written exactly like taškarin "box tree, boxwood".
Maybe the notion about taškarin is something sharp or thorny; there is a word śalākā which means (among other sharp or pointed things) also this myna tree, "Vangueria Spinosa" (like taskara): http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=sAlaka&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
Kloekhorst says that Hit. tāye-/a- "to steal (from)" must be from some *teh2-ye/-o. On the other hand, talking about a word zahhai / zahhi "battle, war" (Sum. ME), from zāh/zahh "to hit, to beat", assumed from a *tieh2-oi / tieh2-i? ; he also notes the different developement between these two similar roots (*teh2-ye > tāye- and *tieh2-oi > zahh); in Sumerian though there is a zuh for "steal"...
Maybe the notion about taškarin is something sharp or thorny; there is a word śalākā which means (among other sharp or pointed things) also this myna tree, "Vangueria Spinosa" (like taskara):
Intriguing , yes :) .
Kloekhorst says that Hit. tāye-/a- "to steal (from)" must be from some *teh2-ye/-o. On the other hand, talking about a word zahhai / zahhi "battle, war" (Sum. ME), from zāh/zahh "to hit, to beat", assumed from a *tieh2-oi / tieh2-i? ; he also notes the different developement between these two similar roots (*teh2-ye > tāye- and *tieh2-oi > zahh); in Sumerian though there is a zuh for "steal"
There is also the question of the realation of zuh with tuku "to get, to acquire"; we have discussed that at Giacomo's third Sumerian post - there is an Austronesian takaw "steal", compared to "tuku", if you remember. Maybe zuh is from **tk'e(i)h? > tseih > zuh? This TK root was also about rulership etc (like ksháyati), perhaps related to this taškarin (as king); maybe the TK produced not only KT (as in Greek) and KSH (as in Sanskrit) but also some TS or ST; Just a thought...
Also another possibility is a relation with Sum. kar "to flee; to take away (by force), remove; to deprive; to save" (accordin to J. Halloran is "kar: v., to take away; to steal; to raid, capture, pillage; to escape, run away; to avoid").
Greek has also a word στερέω stereo (not to be cofused with the stereo- "stiff" etc) which Pokorny thinks it is a cognate of "steal": Root / lemma: ster-3 English meaning: to rob, steal Material: Gr. στερέω (att. στερίσκω only present) `rob', στέρομαι `bin stolen; looted, miss'; mir. serb `theft' (*ster-u̯ā); with l instead of r through hybridization with hehlen: got. stilan, aisl. stela, ags. ahd. stelan `steal'; there is a r/l alteration here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%AD%CF%89 https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1896
There is also a *stel "to put, to place; to locate": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/stel- maybe connected to *steh2: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/steall#Old_English
Greek has also a word στερέω stereo (not to be cofused with the stereo- "stiff" etc) which Pokorny thinks it is a cognate of "steal": Root / lemma: ster-3 English meaning: to rob, steal Material: Gr. στερέω (att. στερίσκω only present) `rob', στέρομαι `bin stolen; looted, miss'; mir. serb `theft' (*ster-u̯ā); with l instead of r through hybridization with hehlen: got. stilan, aisl. stela, ags. ahd. stelan `steal'; there is a r/l alteration here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%AD%CF%89 https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1896
I see Kyriakos :) .
There is also a *stel "to put, to place; to locate": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/stel- maybe connected to *steh2: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/steall#Old_English
About kar, I'm not sure if it is connected, yet this reading of uzga "treasure" as "uzugx(KA)" (zuh), indicates also a connection with "KA" (like ka-r, perhaps?).
Another curious thing is that the sign of "taškarin" is the same with tug (tug2) for "textile, garment"; also the same - or almost the same- with nam2 "prince; and except from "stalk" (that one would say that fits for a plant or tree), there is also a Gr. word στολή (stolḗ) "equipment, garment", from 3. stel- 'to put, place': http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dstolh%2F https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%BB%CE%AE https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1890
Another curious thing is that the sign of "taškarin" is the same with tug (tug2) for "textile, garment"; also the same - or almost the same- with nam2 "prince; and except from "stalk" (that one would say that fits for a plant or tree), there is also a Gr. word στολή (stolḗ) "equipment, garment", from 3. stel- 'to put, place':
στέλλω (stéllō) means "I make ready, prepare; I furnish, dress", but also "I dispatch, send" etc (with apo- forms "apostle"https://www.etymonline.com/word/apostle with epi- "epistle" https://www.etymonline.com/word/epistle etc) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%84%CE%AD%CE%BB%CE%BB%CF%89 the fact is that in Aeolic there are types with p, which means that the root must be *skwel >> *spel/*stel, like spole (for stole): http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dspola%2F looks like *kwel/kwer, as if **(s)kwel; perhaps there is aconnection with zal "to get up early; to finish, come to an end; to dissolve, melt, disintegrate, break down, collapse; to quake; to pass time"; at least, about the "end, finish" notion resembles to "til", supposed to be connected to *kwel. Also, Halloran has zal[NI]: "n., supply. v., to be full or abundant; to flow; to continue; to pass, elapse (said about time); to spend the day; to tarry, wait (often with -ni-; with -ta- in a temporal sense)" and the the notion of supply fits, I think, with *stel and stole as "equipment".
the fact is that in Aeolic there are types with p, which means that the root must be *skwel >> *spel/*stel, like spole (for stole):
Yes :) .
looks like *kwel/kwer, as if **(s)kwel; perhaps there is aconnection with zal "to get up early; to finish, come to an end; to dissolve, melt, disintegrate, break down, collapse; to quake; to pass time"; at least, about the "end, finish" notion resembles to "til", supposed to be connected to *kwel. Also, Halloran has zal[NI]: "n., supply. v., to be full or abundant; to flow; to continue; to pass, elapse (said about time); to spend the day; to tarry, wait (often with -ni-; with -ta- in a temporal sense)" and the the notion of supply fits, I think, with *stel and stole as "equipment".
Maybe there is a connection through a kind of metathesis (sk/ks)... About the connection with Sum. tug "garment", supposingly connected to *(s)teg (like toga etc, as it is on Giacomo's list), there are also reflexes for "concealing" here, also for "thief", like Sanskrit स्थग (sthaga, “cunning, fraudulent, to cover, to conceal”) hence स्थगति (sthagati, “he/she/it covers, he/she/it conceals”): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/thug#English: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/(s)teg- So, that would fit for the connection with "thief". About "taxus", one etymology points to teḱ- (here there is a connection to the other tḱey- "to cultivate, to settle, to live", but also tetḱ- "Reanalyzed reduplication from *teḱ- (“to sire, beget”)", meaning "to create, produce; to cut, hew" with tákṣati, Latin texo "weave", Gr. tekton and techne etc: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/te%E1%B8%B1- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/t%E1%B8%B1ey- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/tet%E1%B8%B1- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/texo#Latin So, if there is a connection between tug, zuh, tuku and taškarin (an the above discussed IE roots), this could be perhaps through to some TK cluster like TTK (reduplicated TK like in tkei) > TKS (like in texo and maybe taxus) TSK (like in taškarin) and (with a metathesis like in s-teg, sthaga etc) STK; also a simple TK (for thak etc) or TKT (for Gr. tekton etc).
So, that would fit for the connection with "thief"
I agree :) .
this could be perhaps through to some TK cluster like TTK (reduplicated TK like in tkei) > TKS (like in texo and maybe taxus) TSK (like in taškarin) and (with a metathesis like in s-teg, sthaga etc) STK; also a simple TK (for thak etc) or TKT (for Gr. tekton etc).
Something about *stel < **skwel (BTW Dziebel has proposed a PIE *skwel- ‘split, tear, rip’ >> *skel/*spel, if you remember); in German "stellen" we have also a notion of "shape, form" (like in Gestal, from ge-stalt) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Gestalt and that reminds also the *kwel/*kwer root for "do" etc: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/k%CA%B7er- which I thought connected with Sum. aĝarin "matrix" etc, which looks actually in form like "taškarin".
The notion of "cutting" is connected to the notion of "form, do" in these roots, I think; for example "spalten" looks like ge-stalten etc: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/spalten#Middle_High_German Also, in the case of the trees, the "clothing, concealing" notion has to do with the folliage, obviously; and the impressive garments (not fit for simple people) to "king, prince" etc...
The notion of "cutting" is connected to the notion of "form, do" in these roots, I think; for example "spalten" looks like ge-stalten etc: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/spalten#Middle_High_German Also, in the case of the trees, the "clothing, concealing" notion has to do with the folliage, obviously; and the impressive garments (not fit for simple people) to "king, prince" etc...
Returning to the possible connections between Sanskrit vā́stu, aste (maybe from an evolution of *h₁es- "to be"; with a meaning "to sit, to dwell"), also the root *wes-1 "to stay, live, spend the night", it's interesting to remember that there is also a *wes about "clothing, dressing": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/wes-
I remember also that Dziebel connected the **(s)kwel about "cut" with *pel for skin, cloth etc: https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1475 A wes-t root, on the other hand, could be connected (perhaps due to lenition) to a **KwS-t word which could be also connected to a "thorn cluster" as the ones above, I think. like KS < TK.
A wes-t root, on the other hand, could be connected (perhaps due to lenition) to a **KwS-t word which could be also connected to a "thorn cluster" as the ones above, I think. like KS < TK
Certainly a Kost/Hst exists in the case if the words for "bone", also, like in Lat. costa "rib": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%83%C3%A9sth%E2%82%81 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/costa#Latin I wonder, though, which "TK" could be behind the "KS" in this case; maybe it's *(s)teig?
I remembered now that Dziebel had connected also *gʷeyh₃- to the root of "be" (which we also connected to *h₁ésmi and the root of "was"): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/g%CA%B7eyh%E2%82%83- http://kinshipstudies.org/blog/2014/07/23/indo-european-labiovelars-a-new-look/
The notions of "stealing" and "concealing & covering" made me tonight to note the similarity between Sum. zuh "thief" and "chokha", a kind of cloth; the word is of Persian origin, according to this Wikipedia article it means "outfit made of fabric": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chokha
Hi Nirjhar, Without being sure, I was thinking today that (assuming the KʷKʷ = TK equation :D), we could probably connect also *(s)teg with *(s)kep; since a "kʷ" can be "k", "t" or "p", in several situations. Bomhard has it as *(s)t’ek’-/*(s)t’ok’-, as you have posted, on Giacomo's multifarious connection thread.
(assuming the KʷKʷ = TK equation :D This is one of my loved ones :D .
we could probably connect also *(s)teg with *(s)kep; since a "kʷ" can be "k", "t" or "p", in several situations. Bomhard has it as *(s)t’ek’-/*(s)t’ok’-,
:D It's just we don't know the circumstances which lead to these phonetic changes.:) there is also a Sum. abad "shelter" which one could say is the "PT" version (like the bad "wall" assumed connected to the TK of dehi etc...)
Akkadian wašābu [TUŠ] G. to sit ; to stay, dwell ; to be present, exist D. to install Š. to install < Proto-Semitic : *waθāb "to sit" Syriac : yāteb Hebrew : yāšaḃ Ugaritic : wθb, seems to include many of the notions discussed above about dwell, sit, exist etc; perhaps it's connected, too. http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=86&language=id
About taskarin, I searched at lemma "taskarinnu" of CAD, and according to it "the tree is native to Upper Syria and Cyprus and its wood came to Mesopotamia as gifts, tribute or booty"; so, concerning a possible connection with "taskara", maybe we should look for some Indic or Indo-Aryan connection, from Mitanni maybe...
Another uš "spell" (not at ePSD) leads to Akk. kaššāpu [LÚ.UŠ11.ZU] (n.) sorcerer, wizard, necromancer (?) http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=ka%C5%A1%C5%A1%C4%81pu&language=rawakkadian ePSD has though a sibsib [SORCERESS] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. sibsib "sorceress" Akk. kaššaptu; and there is also ašāpu ((w)ašāpu(m)) "to exorcise , to cast / drive away demons; to cure (by exorcism); also wāšipu: 1) (human) an exorcist, a sorcerer, a magician, an incantory priest ; 2) (especially "Asalluḫi") : god of exorcism / magic ; http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=6568&language=id http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=6568&language=id which is very close to wāšibu:a dweller, one who lives / dwells in a place an occupant , an inhabitant, a denizen (?) ; http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=6513&language=id also uššābu http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=u%C5%A1%C5%A1%C4%81bu&language=rawakkadian
This reduplicated Sum. sib reminded me of Gr. σέβομαι (sébomai) "to feel awe or fear before God, especially when about to do something disgraceful; to feel shame, religious awe" (from a notion of "avoiding", from *tyegʷ- (“avoid, yield to”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CE%AD%CE%B2%CE%BF%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%B9#Ancient_Greek (not sure though if it is compatible with sorcerer or spell...)
which is very close to wāšibu:a dweller, one who lives / dwells in a place an occupant , an inhabitant, a denizen (?) ;
Very interesting :) .
Sum. sib reminded me of Gr. σέβομαι (sébomai) "to feel awe or fear before God, especially when about to do something disgraceful; to feel shame, religious awe" (from a notion of "avoiding", from *tyegʷ- (“avoid, yield to”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CE%AD%CE%B2%CE%BF%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%B9#Ancient_Greek (not sure though if it is compatible with sorcerer or spell...)
I was thinking tonight that Gr. κλέπτω (kléptō) "steal" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%BB%CE%AD%CF%80%CF%84%CF%89 could be also from a **(s)kwel-kw? (kind of KrK root) = **kelp > *klep. The sages say that a connection with Gr. καλύπτω (kaluptō) "cover, conceal" is not to be excluded. kalypto is from *ḱel- (“to cover”) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/%E1%B8%B1el- Now, there is a Sum. halub [TREE] (110x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. ha-lu-ub2; [ĝeš]ha-lu-ub2; [ĝeš]ha-lu-ub4 "a tree" Akk. haluppu. In arabic is probaly named ma-haleb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prunus_mahaleb They connected it also to taskarin: https://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.gr/&httpsredir=1&article=1012&context=penn_museum_papers So, if taskarin is about "conealing" (connected with taskara "thief") and since halub seems to be close to kalyp- kalup- pf kalypto for "concealing" (with h < k, as in German); and kalypto is probably connected to *klep, used for "stealing"; then I think there is a possibility of the same notion of "concealing - covering" concerning the folliage of this tree "halub", as in "taskarin"; note that in CAD, there is also a Mari word "halupu" meaning a kind of garment (connec ted with halapu "to cover, clothe" (among other things): http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=6541&language=id
Tocharian B has a word kälyp- (vt.) ‘steal’ (which seems close to kalypto, too: "The TchB subjunctive reflects PIE *klépye/o- ‘steal,’ exactly as in Greek kléptō ‘steal’ [: Latin clepō ‘steal,’ Gothic hlifan ‘id.,’ Old Prussian au-klipts ‘concealed,’ and possibly, if with s-mobile, Lithuanian slepiù ‘hide’ (with reduction of *skl- to sl-) (P:604; MA:595)] (VW, 1960:39, 1976:203). More distantly this word is related to both klep- ‘± touch with the fingers, investigate’ and kälp- ‘get, obtain,’ qq.v. (Adams, 1989b). See also kälpaṣṣuki and klepe."
There are also Dravidian words in Nostratic: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=1519&root=config Eurasiatic: *q̇VlPV Meaning: to steal, cheat Indo-European: *(s)klep- Kartvelian: Georg. q̇alb- 'to cheat, deceive, lie' Dravidian: *kaḷ- References: ND 1915 *q̇Aḷ/ĺAb/pV 'to hide, conceal' (+Arab.). Cf. *KuĺV?
could be also from a **(s)kwel-kw? (kind of KrK root) = **kelp > *klep. The sages say that a connection with Gr. καλύπτω (kaluptō) "cover, conceal" is not to be excluded. kalypto is from *ḱel- (“to cover”)
Very interesting , yes :) .
So, if taskarin is about "conealing" (connected with taskara "thief") and since halub seems to be close to kalyp- kalup- pf kalypto for "concealing" (with h < k, as in German); and kalypto is probably connected to *klep, used for "stealing"; then I think there is a possibility of the same notion of "concealing - covering" concerning the folliage of this tree "halub", as in "taskarin"; note that in CAD, there is also a Mari word "halupu" meaning a kind of garment (connected with halapu "to cover, clothe" (among other things)
Very interesting :) .
See also kälpaṣṣuki and klepe."
There are also Dravidian words in Nostratic: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=1519&root=config Eurasiatic: *q̇VlPV Meaning: to steal, cheat Indo-European: *(s)klep- Kartvelian: Georg. q̇alb- 'to cheat, deceive, lie' Dravidian: *kaḷ- References: ND 1915 *q̇Aḷ/ĺAb/pV 'to hide, conceal' (+Arab.). Cf. *KuĺV?
I am wondering now if the *ster/stel root about "steal" could be connected to the *ster of "firm" etc, maybe through the notion of "concealing" > "well protected" then "hard, firm" we were talking before (as a **KrK root); perhaps an intermediate form is the one of German stark "stiff" etc https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/stark On the other hand, Akkadian ḫallupu (connected to ḫalāpu above) means "armoured, armour-clad ; [šupālītu ḫalluptu] : mail shirt , armoured tunic" http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=%E1%B8%ABallupu&language=rawakkadian Sumerian has akar [ARMOR] wr. akar "armor" Akk. apluhtu the "kar" of akar reminded me the conversation about "kar" we had before (Kerker etc, as a KrK root fir hardness); Akkad. apluhtu reminded me aplu, and the other apeileo "keep away, unroll" (frpm apo + eileo (<wel-)' :D
''I am wondering now if the *ster/stel root about "steal" could be connected to the *ster of "firm" etc, maybe through the notion of "concealing" > "well protected" then "hard, firm" we were talking before (as a **KrK root); perhaps an intermediate form is the one of German stark "stiff" etc https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/stark''
That's a very interesting idea! :) .
''On the other hand, Akkadian ḫallupu (connected to ḫalāpu above) means "armoured, armour-clad ; [šupālītu ḫalluptu] : mail shirt , armoured tunic" http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=%E1%B8%ABallupu&language=rawakkadian Sumerian has akar [ARMOR] wr. akar "armor" Akk. apluhtu the "kar" of akar reminded me the conversation about "kar" we had before (Kerker etc, as a KrK root fir hardness); Akkad. apluhtu reminded me aplu, and the other apeileo "keep away, unroll" (frpm apo + eileo (<wel-)' :D''
Once again I am referring to Sum. kar [FLEE] (158x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. kar "to flee; to take away (by force), remove; to deprive; to save" Akk. ekēmu; eţēru; mašā'u; nērubu, derived also possibly from **(s)kwer.
Because of the meaning "free" of "kar", I've made an assumption for a connection with the AA har/hur "free, noble", connbected with Arya by Giacomo; maybe there is also a connection with taškarin "king, pure, luxuriant".
Also "thief" (if assumed as "robber") is connected sometimes with "freeman"; for example in modern Greek history we have the "klephts": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klepht
Nirjhar, do you think that this Persian word for "army, soldier" is perhaps connected to taskara (t/l?): https://www.etymonline.com/word/lascar (btw, it seems that the name of a medieval Greek noble family is derived from "laskar"): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laskaris
I checked at Hesychius again and he has a word κλέπος klepos, meaning "tall (hypselon); moist; shaggy; and stolen thing" · [ὑψηλόν.] [νοτερόν. δασύ. καὶ] φώριον, κλέμμα https://el.wikisource.org/wiki/%CE%93%CE%BB%CF%8E%CF%83%CF%83%CE%B1%CE%B9/%CE%9A Perseus Dictionary has only the "stolen" meaning (from *klep) http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkle%2Fpos There is also a κλέπας klepas "moist, muddy; shaggy; wet" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*k%3Aentry+group%3D125%3Aentry%3Dkle%2Fpas I wonder if the klepos "tall" has somethning to do with taškarin = tall (concerning also the possible connection with "taskara" = thief / and *klep = steal)
Nirjhar, do you think that this Persian word for "army, soldier" is perhaps connected to taskara (t/l?):
Of course! . That word is also used in Bengali :) .
I wonder if the klepos "tall" has somethning to do with taškarin = tall (concerning also the possible connection with "taskara" = thief / and *klep = steal)
I think that if *(s)klep for "thief" is an extension of *'kel (< **skwel-), then this klepos "tall" of Hesychius could be an extension of *kel "tower up" etc like in "hill" or "colophon": https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0878 I was thinking also about a connection with "cliff", but it seems to be from another root: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cliff though one wonders always about the connection between the roots. There is also a *klep "wet, damp".
I can imagine also some possible connection of *klep (< **kle-kw? < **kel-kw?) with *leh₂w- and λείᾱ (leíā) "booty, plunder; the act of plunder; stolen property; herd, flock": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BB%CE%B5%CE%AF%CE%B1#Ancient_Greek From Proto-Indo-European *leh₂w-. Cognates include Sanskrit लोत (lota), Latin lucrum, Gothic 𐌻𐌰𐌿𐌽 (laun), Old Norse laun, Old English lean. Due to some "plosive loss" (like in this theory of V. Diakoff, and as we have assumed before).
We have compared also a reduplicated Sum. liblib [PLUNDERER] (11x: Old Babylonian) wr. lib4-lib4 "plunderer" with this root, I think. Also this φώριον phorion = κλέμμα klemma (stolen thing) of Hesychius is from φώρ phor `thief' (= lat. fūr) < *bher "carry", which is perhaps connected with *Hnk' (with a similar meaning), perhaps releted to Sum. nig "to acquire" etc; which through a Sumerian lib/nig equation is connected with "lib" :D.
Sum. hašhur "apple (tree)" Akk. hašhûru, could be also a product of some lenition / "plosive loss" of a root like of taškarin (TSK>HSH); Bomhard has connected it to the root of "ash-tree" *ōs, ōs-i-s, ō̆s-en-, os-k- (or *h₃osk-) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ash#English
Yet, according to this, hašhur means "apricot": https://books.google.gr/books?id=5ckUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA79&lpg=PA79&dq=hashur+apple&source=bl&ots=tXWIMTGglg&sig=jXcs9v98hfb5tshbxWYfbJpw0HY&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj03OTvrPXYAhXFbhQKHTf1DmMQ6AEIQDAF#v=onepage&q=hashur%20apple&f=false Maybe, then, hašhurmada "pear-tree; pear" means "hurma" :D https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hurma
Sum. hašhur "apple (tree)" Akk. hašhûru, could be also a product of some lenition / "plosive loss" of a root like of taškarin (TSK>HSH); Bomhard has connected it to the root of "ash-tree" *ōs, ōs-i-s, ō̆s-en-, os-k- (or *h₃osk-)
At ePSD there is also armanu [TREE] (1x: unknown) wr. ar-ma-nu "a tree" Akk. armannu "apricot? tree"; equals {ĝeš}hašhur kur-ra. Look for arguments about these things also here: http://www.fundamentalarmenology.am/datas/pdfs/113.pdf
About other possible relations to "taskarin", there is also Gr. τόξον toxon "bow": Possibly a cognate of Latin taxus or borrowed from Iranian: compare Persian تخش (taxš, “crossbow”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CF%8C%CE%BE%CE%BF%CE%BD
There is also Gr. τάξις taxis < τᾰ́σσω (tássō, “I arrange”, “I order”, aorist passive participial stem: τᾰγ-, tag-) + -σῐς (-sis): "arrangement, ordering; battle array, order of battle; (military) rank, line of soldiers; post, place, position, rank; division, brigade, company, cohort; band, company; arrangement, disposition, manner, nature; assessment; order, good order; duty; order, class" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CF%8C%CE%BE%CE%BF%CE%BD
τᾰ́σσω (tássō, “I arrange”, “I order” < τᾰγ-, tag- is very close to ῐ̔́στημῐ (hístēmi) "to make to stand, to stand, set" etc < *steh₂- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%B5%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B7%CE%BC%CE%B9 it's only that tássō / taxis are used for military / administration purposes; if we combine these stems tag / steH, we reach a stem identical to *steg (to cover, to conceal etc - also to protect), I think.
it's only that tássō / taxis are used for military / administration purposes; if we combine these stems tag / steH, we reach a stem identical to *steg (to cover, to conceal etc - also to protect), I think.
Maybe there is also a connection to haz [COVER] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. ha-az "cover", as HTK (instead of STK of *steg)> HSH/HSK; the latter remindes also "husk" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/husk
I think it's interesting that the roots about "cut, tear" resemble the ones about "cover, conceal" etc; that is perhaps because the coverings are made by wood or leather; so the connection with "cut, tear" seems evident. If you remember, Dziebel proposes a PIE *skwel- ‘split, tear, rip’ giving IE *skel- and *(s)pel– ‘skin’; from here (8) : http://kinshipstudies.org/blog/2014/07/23/indo-european-labiovelars-a-new-look/
Perhaps is same with *(s)ker and *der; in Greek there is a word ῥινός rhinos "skin of a living person, hide of a beast, oxhide shield, pl., thongs of boxing-gloves, leather of a sling" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dr(ino%2Fs etymology: from ϝρι_νός [wrinos], as shown by γρῖνος [grinos]: δέρμα [derma = skin], Hesychius. Frisk thinks that it is connected to the root of "write" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/write but with an -n ending, like the one in dṛṇā́ti http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=drina&direct=se https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%83%E0%A4%A3%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF#Sanskrit The reason that i wrote that, is that rhinos reminds me of this Sum. word: hirin [OBJECT] wr. hirin2; hurin "a leather object" Akk. zinbuharu without being sure, of course; this is a wild guess.
The reason that i wrote that, is that rhinos reminds me of this Sum. word: hirin [OBJECT] wr. hirin2; hurin "a leather object" Akk. zinbuharu without being sure, of course; this is a wild guess.
:D The other "rhino" in Greek is from ῥῑνός (rhīnós) f, genitive singular of ῥῑ́ς (rhī́s) "nose" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BF%A5%CE%AF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BF%A5%CE%B9%CE%BD%CF%8C%CF%82#Ancient_Greek maybe there is a connection with Sum. kiri [NOSE] (72x: Old Babylonian) wr. kiri3 "nose" Akk. appu; maybe through a lenition k?h and an "n" ending, like the other rhinos; I wouldn't exclude a meaning of "cut", like "pointed" :D
There is also Sum. hur "to scratch, draw". Another Sum. word hurrum [CAVE] (18x: Old Babylonian) wr. hur-ru-um; hur-rumum "cave", reminded me of Gr. χηραμός kheeramos "hole, cleft, hollow": http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dxhramo%2Fs According to Pokorny it belongs to "ĝhē-2:ghǝ- and ĝhēi-:ĝhī- "to gape, yawn".
There is another Sum. word hiritum [DITCH] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. hi-ri-tum2 "ditch", which looks also like "write"; though there are two Germanic words, wrītaną and hrītaną (about "scratch" etc), and this hiritum looks like the second one (German reißen "to tear" etc seems also connected): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/hr%C4%ABtan%C4%85 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rei%C3%9Fen#German
About Sum. hirim [GRASS] (3x: Old Babylonian) wr. hirim; hirinx(KWU318) "a grass" Akk. arantu; lardu; Halloran has it as "hirin, hirim: the root stalks of the spikenard, imported from India, and used in perfumes; a weed grass (he, 'abundant', + ir, 'perfume', + in, 'straw')" Maybe the meaning is though about "sharp, pointed" also here?
Obviously Accadian "lardu" is the same with Gr. νάρδος nardos, ultimately from Skrt. nálada (possible via some Semitic source): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BD%CE%AC%CF%81%CE%B4%CE%BF%CF%82
Sum. hub [FOOT] (5x: Old Babylonian) wr. hub2 "foot" reminded me of Gr. ὁπλή hople "hoof" (hop-le): http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Do(plh%2F supposingly connected with ὅπλον hoplon "tool, implement"; also "weapon, penis" etc; for this latter they assume a derivation from *sep 'to honor, care for, concern oneself with' https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%85%CF%80%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%BD#Ancient_Greek https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1697 though Gr. hepo ἕπω (A) means "to be about, busy oneself with": http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*e%3Aentry+group%3D244%3Aentry%3De%28%2Fpw1 Also the notion of "hoof" as derived supposingly from a word for "tool" confuses me :/
Mayrhofer is referring to a Hittite root hasp- "handle, come to grips with with, take care of, dispose of"; with *sep being *Hs-ep > (H-esp > Hit. hasp) Though the only solution for a connection with Sum. hub could be some (s)Hep instead :P btw, Hit. hasp reminds also Gr. aspis "shield" (which is also called the "hoplon" (weapon); maybe it belongs to a "Anatolian" layer of Greek - the etymology given is from *spey: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CF%83%CF%80%CE%AF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%80%CE%AF%CE%B6%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
Also, aspis / hoplon "shield" is circular https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__mH8Xa7Sto and there is also a Sum. hub "wheel", I think.
Some random thoughts today, Nirjhar... Another Gr. word for "hoof" is χηλή (khēlḗ) or χᾱλά (khālā́) Doric. Traditionally connected with χηρᾰμός (khēramós, “hole, hollow”), χήμη (khḗmē, “yawning, gaping”), and χάσκω (kháskō, “I yawn, gape”), but obscure. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%87%CE%B7%CE%BB%CE%AE That looks perhaps like ĝiri [FOOT] (10822x: Lagash II, Ur III) wr. ĝiri3; me-ri; ĝiri16 "via, by means of, under the authority of someone; foot; path" Akk. šēpu The Semitic root of šēpu is also interesting : http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=+100&root=config
Also Proto-Afro-Asiatic: *ĉayṗ- Meaning: foot, sole; shoe Semitic: *ŝayṗ- 'foot, sole of foot; shoe' Egyptian: šp 'hoof' (Gr) Beḍauye (Beja): šib 'to shoe', šab 'to be shod, put on one's footgear' Central Cushitic (Agaw): *šanp/b- 'foot, heel' South Cushitic: *ʔi-šib- 'sandal' (note Egyptian šp 'hoof' - remindes of hople :D)
χηλή (khēlḗ) or χᾱλά (khālā́) reminds also Sanskrit khura ''a hoof , horse's hoof Ka1tyS3r. Mn. &c. (ifc. f. %{A} [g. %{kroDA7di}] MBh. i Hcat. ; once %{I} , i , 7 , 38) ; a particular part of the foot of a bedstead VarBr2S. lxxix ; a sort of perfume (dried shellfish shaped like a hoof) L. ; (for %{kSura4}) a razor L. ; (%{I}) f. g. %{bahv-Adi} (not in Ka1s3. and g. %{zoNA7di}).'' http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=khura&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
That looks perhaps like ĝiri [FOOT] (10822x: Lagash II, Ur III) wr. ĝiri3; me-ri; ĝiri16 "via, by means of, under the authority of someone; foot; path" Akk. šēpu
This *ḱoph₂ós about "hoof" reminds me again gub "to stand; (to be) assigned (to a task)" Akk. izuzzu; also as "śaphá" reminded me Gr. sapha "clear" etc (like a Hittite and a Semitic word, I think, we have discussed about that on Giacomo's post), and there is also a Sum. gub [BATHE] (4x: ED IIIb, Old Babylonian) wr. gub2 "to bathe, wash oneself; (to be) pure" Akk. ramāku, if you remember :D
Concerning *sep about "honoring, taking care of" etc, the other root about "care, serve" etc *ken (like "deacon" etc), was somehow again related to a notion of "round" (like kanda for ball, this *ken was about "rub", fitting also for a wheel), or even "ash" (perhaps related to feet).
And of course *ken was about itching etc, maybe also cutting, like the compared Sum. kinda "barber"; I noticed a Sum. hubhub "pointed" yesterday (fitting also to foot).
Sum. ĝiri was also about "cut": ĝiri [DAGGER] (198x: ED IIIb, Ebla, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ĝiri2; [urud]ĝiri2; me2-er; me-er; me-ri "razor; sword, dagger" Akk. naglabu; patru (ĝiri was also about "sceleton, bones", in ĝiripadra :D). About the possible connection of *ken with *sep, this could be perhaps through the type as **(s)kwe-n-d (to fit Gr. spodos/konis "ash"), or maybe H(s)kwe-(n-d) > like Hspe- > hasp- (Anat.) or *sep (others); maybe also *pod/*ped for "foot" (from some (s)kwe-d, without the n?)
Sum. ĝiri was also about "cut": ĝiri [DAGGER] (198x: ED IIIb, Ebla, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ĝiri2; [urud]ĝiri2; me2-er; me-er; me-ri "razor; sword, dagger" Akk. naglabu; patru (ĝiri was also about "sceleton, bones", in ĝiripadra :D).
Yup :) .
About the possible connection of *ken with *sep, this could be perhaps through the type as **(s)kwe-n-d (to fit Gr. spodos/konis "ash"), or maybe H(s)kwe-(n-d) > like Hspe- > hasp- (Anat.) or *sep (others); maybe also *pod/*ped for "foot" (from some (s)kwe-d, without the n?)
Anatolian "Hasp" looks also like "Hast-" for "bone"; since kw > p / t (from H(s)kwe-(n-d) > Hste- > hast-); it fits also to the connection of "bone" with kandha "shoulder", I think.
Not sure, but I think Whittaker has proposed this comparison (or a similar one): of Sum. ĝiri "dagger" to *ǵʰḗr (“hedgehog”), like in Latin "ēr": From Proto-Italic *hēr, from Proto-Indo-European *ǵʰḗr (“hedgehog”) (whence also Ancient Greek χήρ (khḗr, “hedgehog”)), a root noun from *ǵʰer- (“to be excited, be bristly”), whence also Ancient Greek χοῖρος (khoîros, “young pig”) and Albanian derr (“pig”) from *ǵʰór-yos.[1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/er#Latin
To make a connection with χηλή khēle, we must suppose a ǵʰer/l though... There is also a verb χηλεύω khēlauo "to net, plait": http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dxhleu%2Fw
khēlē and hoplē mean both "hoof", maybe there is a distant connection between them (not sure what it would be, though); hubhub means "a container or tube" Akk. huphuppu There is a word χηλός khēlos "a large chest or coffer" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*x%3Aentry+group%3D7%3Aentry%3Dxhlo%2Fs
Nirjhar, what about this Javanese - Indonesian dagger? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris "The word kris derives from the Old Javanese term ngiris (Javanese: ꦔꦶꦫꦶꦱ꧀) which means to slice, wedge or sliver. "Kris" is the more frequently used spelling in the West, but "keris" is more popular in the dagger's native lands" ĝiri "dagger" and "ngiris" seem to be identical.
In Philippines is known as kalis (r/l): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalis
I'm wondering now if there could be some relation with Gr. μάχαιρα makhaira "large knife, short sword, dirk, dagger": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BC%CE%AC%CF%87%CE%B1%CE%B9%CF%81%CE%B1
Hi Nirjhar, It seems that "ng-" in Javanese is a kind of particle; here says iris/irisan: slice, cut piece and ngiris "to cut" https://books.google.gr/books?id=-ZvTAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT527&lpg=PT527&dq=ngiris+dictionary+cut&source=bl&ots=53mEdkU2xJ&sig=NxGIHqjYX6Lht5XVLLgZ0tjfl4w&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiB0tOnlf_YAhXC7BQKHQOeAewQ6AEIQzAD#v=onepage&q=ngiris%20dictionary%20cut&f=false
I mean, in Greek the stem is hi-stā-, though it seems to be from a reduplication process. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%B5%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B7%CE%BC%CE%B9
This Javanese iris/irisan: slice, cut piece reminds again the root of writana etc (in Pokorny is u̯er-7 (*su̯er-); for example there is also a Gr. word ῥίνη rhinē meaning "file, rasp": http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dr(i%2Fnh
I still think that *(s)ker/*(s)kel "cut" is related (the word for "legs" in Linear B is "kerea", if you remember); perhaps as **skwel/r); this (s)k- is like the (n)g-.
Yeah, a connection could be established with with *tḱéy (and *ḱéy) :D https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/t%E1%B8%B1ey- like Sum. šed "to lie down (of animals); to rest, sleep (of animals)" Akk. itūlu; rabāşu.
The other similar *tk(')ēy- about "possesion" etc (compared with Sum. tuku) http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=1605&root=config fits with the steya "thief", zuh etc, as said. But *steg about covering and roof etc, fits toi both, I think (dwell, steal) :D
The other similar *tk(')ēy- about "possesion" etc (compared with Sum. tuku) http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=1605&root=config fits with the steya "thief", zuh etc, as said. But *steg about covering and roof etc, fits toi both, I think (dwell, steal) :D
There is also a KST in Sum. kešda [ROOFING] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. [ĝeš]keš2-da "roofing, top story" Akk. taşliltu; connected probably to kešed [BIND] (853x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. keš2 "to bind" Akk. rakāsu.
Btw, do you think kaš [DECISION] (72x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ka-aš; ga-eš8 "decision" could be connected to this Nostratic root? (not remembering if we have proposed that) http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2Fdata%2Fnostr%2Fnostret&text_number=+854&root=config Eurasiatic: *ḳVcwV ( ~ -c`w-, -č`w-) Meaning: to think, consider Indo-European: *k'[ē]s- Altaic: (Jap. kasikǝ-) Uralic: *kačV (*kočV) Eskimo-Aleut: *kǝc-ǝt-
Proto-IE: *k'[ē]s-
Meaning: to show, to lead Old Indian: śā́ste, śāsti `to correct, censure, control, teach', ptc. aor. śiṣánt- `teaching', ptc. śiṣṭá- `taught, controlled, shown'; śāstar- `chastiser, punisher'; śāstrá- n. `order, command; treatise' Avestan: sāsti `heisst, lehrt'; sāstar- `Gebieter, Machthaber, Fürst' Armenian: sast `Schelte, Vorwurf, Drohung, Strenge, Autorität', sastem `schelte, drohe, schärfe ein, gebiete', sastik `heftig'
Do you think this kaš could be also connected to a notion of "bind"? I am trying to figure out if a type āśāsti "a prayer" http://www.sanskritdictionary.com/%C4%81%C5%9B%C4%81sti/31603/1 could be connected to Sum. šita [PRAYER] (14x: Old Babylonian) wr. šita "prayer" Akk. riksu "binding, knot, bond".
Another wissful thinking is a possible connevtion of *gʷʰedʰ- (for "ask, pray" etc) with bʰendʰ- "bind") like from *gʷʰe(n)dʰ : https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/g%CA%B7%CA%B0ed%CA%B0- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/b%CA%B0end%CA%B0-
It is also supposed that the root of Skrt. s'as is found possibly in Gr. ἕκαστος (hékastos) "each (one) from ἑκάς (hekás) "afar, far off; long after" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%95%CE%BA%CE%B1%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%91%CE%BA%CE%AC%CF%82#Ancient_Greek same in ἀνδρακάς andrakás "man by man": "-κάς perh. cognate with Skt. -śás in dviśás 'two by two', etc." http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Da)ndraka%2Fs1 this notion looks like the opposite of binding :/ ; remembers tar "to cut down; to untie, loosen; to cut; to scatter, disperse; to decide".
In Halloran's Lexicon šita as a word is connected also to šid [COUNT] (292x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. šid "count(ing); number; half (shares); to count" Akk. minûtu; mišlānū
šìta: channel, small canal (šè, 'portion' + ída, íd, i7, 'main canal') [ŠITA3 archaic frequency: 139; concatenation of 2 sign variants]. šita(4), èšda; šid3,4,5: n., band; bond, tie (šè, 'portion', + te, 'to approach'; cf., ašte, téš). v., to bind; to be together; to join, link with; to couple. adj., bound, intact. šita5, šit, šid, šed: n., measure; number (šè, 'portion', + ta, dá, 'nature, character'). v., to count; to consider; to calculate, figure out; to memorize; to recite; to read aloud.
In ePSD there is šitadu [ACCOUNTANT] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. šita5-du3 "accountant" Akk. pāqidu maybe this kind of "šita" (as HS-T) is connected with Skt. -śás and Gr. -κάς -kas (for "one by one" (as a kind of KS-T, like in Gr. he-kas-tos)
I mean, if "cut" (as it seems) is connected to the notions of "seat" and "doing/ constructing", then why not also with "ordering" or even "binding", if the meaning of "cut" in this case is about arrangeing things (like one by one). It's a bit funny, but I've noticed also that the Eskimo root (*kǝc-ǝt-) was about "counting": http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fesq%2fesqet&text_number=++63&root=config
There is also ešbar [DECISION] (44x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. eš-bar; eš5-bar "decision" Akk. purussûm and ešbar kiĝ [DECIDE] (14x: Old Babylonian) wr. eš-bar kiĝ2 "to make a decision" probably as a type of HS instead of the KS, like in kaš [DECISION] (72x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ka-aš; ga-eš8 "decision", kaš bar [MAKE A DECISION] wr. ka-aš bar "to make a decision" Akk. ?
probably as a type of HS instead of the KS, like in kaš [DECISION] (72x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ka-aš; ga-eš8 "decision", kaš bar [MAKE A DECISION] wr. ka-aš bar "to make a decision" Akk. ?
btw, since kaš is a "KS" root, I think that the best candidate for a TK :D one is 1. dek̑- 'to take' etc (because of the many reflexes about "teach, right" etc). https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0326
:D In the reality there is a Tocharian A täk- to judge (IE *dek'- 'to judge'); Pokorny says Toch. A täk- "urteilen, entscheiden" (to judge, to decide). https://tied.verbix.com/project/glossary/toch.html
Do you think that this root (*dens) about "mental power" etc could be connected to *dek'-? https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0338 It would require a k'> s'> s
2,273 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 1601 – 1800 of 2273 Newer› Newest»A **negwh- for "cloud, moisture" resembles also to Sum. naĝ for "drink"; if we have a n/l change, and ĝ as gwh > ph, reminds also of the laph- in Gr. λαφύσσω (laphússō, “swallow, gulp down”); like in Arm. լափեմ (lapʿem) (transitive) to lap up, to lick up (transitive, figuratively) to eat up greedily, to devour, to consume:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D5%AC%D5%A1%D6%83%D5%A5%D5%B4
reminds also of the laph- in Gr. λαφύσσω (laphússō, “swallow, gulp down”); like in Arm. լափեմ (lapʿem) (transitive) to lap up, to lick up (transitive, figuratively) to eat up greedily, to devour, to consume:
Very interesting! :) .
Another possible connection is between balaĝ [INSTRUMENT] (154x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. balaĝ; [ĝeš]balaĝ "a large drum or harp" Akk. balangu, and nab [MUSICIAN] (5x: ED IIIb) wr. nab "a musician" Akk. nāru, having also in mind νάβλα nabla "a kind of Phoenician harp":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabla_symbol
Interesting :) .
Not sure, but about guz [TUFTED] (110x: ED IIIa, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. guz "to be tufted", a kind of KRS word comparison (like with guza "seat", Akk. kussû possibly from < kurs-) could be with Gr. κρόσσαι krossai or κροσσοί krossoi "tassels, fringe":
http://etymology_el_en.enacademic.com/4007/%CE%BA%CF%81%E1%BD%B9%CF%83%CF%83%CE%B1%CE%B9
and krossotos κροσσωτός "tasselled, fringed":
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*k%3Aentry+group%3D172%3Aentry%3Dkrosswto%2Fs
maybe from *kors-; yet of unknown origin.
Very interesting :) .
Hi Nirjhar,
krossai means also "battlements of the walls", which could be compared also to teeth, I think; maybe there is a notion of "cutting" here (maybe this was the initial meaning of the word for chair, seat? I wonder.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dkro%2Fssai
ašte [CHAIR] (2x: Old Babylonian) wr. ašte2; ĝešaš-te; ĝešiš-de3 "chair, throne; seat, dwelling; shrine, chapel; a unit of area" Akk. kussû; sukku; šubtu
seems something wider than just "chair, throne"; the menaning of "dwelling" leads to a possible comparison with वास्तु (vā́stu) n "the site or foundation of a house, site, ground, building or dwelling-place, habitation, homestead, house; an apartment, chamber"
most probably connected also to Gr. ἄστῠ (ástu) "a town, city" etc. From ϝάστυ (wástu), from Proto-Hellenic *wástu, with possible connection with Sanskrit वस्तु (vastu, “house”), Latin verna, Tocharian A waṣt and Tocharian B ost.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%84%CF%83%CF%84%CF%85#Ancient_Greek
(If we have compared it before, sorry for the repetition).
krossai means also "battlements of the walls", which could be compared also to teeth, I think; maybe there is a notion of "cutting" here (maybe this was the initial meaning of the word for chair, seat?
That's a very interesting notion :) .
a possible comparison with वास्तु (vā́stu) n "the site or foundation of a house, site, ground, building or dwelling-place, habitation, homestead, house; an apartment, chamber"
most probably connected also to Gr. ἄστῠ (ástu) "a town, city" etc. From ϝάστυ (wástu), from Proto-Hellenic *wástu, with possible connection with Sanskrit वस्तु (vastu, “house”), Latin verna, Tocharian A waṣt and Tocharian B ost.
Very nice :) .
I know there is also aste in Sankrit "to sit, to dwell" etc
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=aste&direct=se
probably from an evolution of *h₁es- "to be"; with a meaning "to sit, to dwell".
In Greek there is ἧμαι heemai, 2nd pers. ἧσαι heesai, 3rd. person ἧσται heestai ((I.-E. ēs-, cf. Skt. āste (= ἧσται) 'sits'; aspirate borrowed from ἵζω hizo, ἕζομαι hezomai.
I know there is also aste in Sankrit "to sit, to dwell" etc
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=aste&direct=se
probably from an evolution of *h₁es- "to be"; with a meaning "to sit, to dwell" In Greek there is ἧμαι heemai, 2nd pers. ἧσαι heesai, 3rd. person ἧσται heestai ((I.-E. ēs-, cf. Skt. āste (= ἧσται) 'sits'; aspirate borrowed from ἵζω hizo, ἕζομαι hezomai.
Yes :) .
I was wondering tonight if there could be some connection with *dʰéh₁s m (oblique stem dʰh₁s-) "god, godhead, deity; sacred place"; supposing *dʰ- < **gwh-, and these *h₁es- and wástu from **gwh (through this lenition of the velar); also wástu looks quite like Akkad. bāštu and Lat. festus we were talking about already (the notion is about "sanctuary", rites, feast etc, but the root of *dʰéh₁s means "to do, to put, to place" ).
Really good :) .
ToB has Proto-IE: *wastu- (Gr w-) Meaning: "king's palace, capital" [maybe something "king's "seat"?]; also apart from Tocharian, Indic and Greek has also Celtic *wasto-: Gaul Dago-vassus; *vassus > MLat vasus `Diener, Vasall'; MIr foss `Diener'; OCymr guas `Jüngling, Diener', NCymr gwas `Jüngling, Diener', Corn duas `Jüngling, Diener', Bret gwaz `Mann':
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=1235&root=config
In Pokorny's Lexicon astu is among the other words of the Root *u̯es-1 "to stay, live, spend the night", among which also "was", arm. goy "is" etc
which, according ToB belong to the root *(a)wes- "to dwell, to be":
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=1462&root=config
Yes , nice :) .
I don't know about Sanskrit, but Gr. ἧμαι (hêmai) is in middle voice, meaning "I am seated" ("I put/set myself at a seat"), so the -ται tai in ἧσται (hêstai) is the third person singular ending ("he/she is seated").
Also I noticed that Pokorny thinks that Gr. (w)astu for town must be a kind of loanword, maybe from Indic?
Possible :) .
Weriting in a hurry again... I meant Mayrhofer, not Pokorny.
I see :) .
So, it's Mayrhofer, not Pokorny. Pokorny, on the other hand compares celtic guas with Old Indian upaḫsthānaḫm `service', úpaḫsti-, upa-stí- m. `subordinate, servant' compare mir. foss `servant' (*upo-sto-), cymr. bret. gwas, corn. guas ds., gall. PN Vasso-rīx etc., mlat. vassus, vassallus < root stā-.
gwas, guas etc reminded me Sum. ušga [YOUTH] (8x: Ur III) wr. uš-ga "attendant; youth", Akk. gerseqqû "palace, temple attendant"; uškû "youth, servant"; but in a reversed form.
Also, if you remember, there is also uzga [PRIEST] (7x: Old Akkadian, Old Babylonian) wr. uz-ga; uzug5; u2-si18-gi; uz3-ga; uzug; uzug2; uzug3; uzug4; uzugx; u2-zug4 "a type of priest" and uzga [TREASURE] (480x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. uz-ga; uz-ga-še3; uzugx(KA); uz-ga-ta; uzug; uz3-ga; us-ga-ne; us-ga; uz-ga-ne; uzugx(|AN.ZAG|); usagx(|U.ŠA|); sausagx(|U.ŠA|); sausagx(|U.ŠA|)ki "cella, shrine; goods, treasure; treasury" Akk. sagû; sukku
which look like "guza" upside-down :D
Also, if you remember, there is also uzga [PRIEST] (7x: Old Akkadian, Old Babylonian) wr. uz-ga; uzug5; u2-si18-gi; uz3-ga; uzug; uzug2; uzug3; uzug4; uzugx; u2-zug4 "a type of priest" and uzga [TREASURE] (480x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. uz-ga; uz-ga-še3; uzugx(KA); uz-ga-ta; uzug; uz3-ga; us-ga-ne; us-ga; uz-ga-ne; uzugx(|AN.ZAG|); usagx(|U.ŠA|); sausagx(|U.ŠA|); sausagx(|U.ŠA|)ki "cella, shrine; goods, treasure; treasury" Akk. sagû; sukku
which look like "guza" upside-down :D
Yeah :D .
Also, the writing of uzga "treasure" as "uzugx(KA)" (zuh) is the same with "zuh" for "steal", which I have compared at Giacomo's first post to *(s)tāi- "to conceal; to steal" of Pokorny and Skrt. . stāyú-, tāyú- `thief' etc; and this *(s)tāi- looks close to stā- for "stand" :D
I am wondering though about the derivation of this root *sta- ....
Yes ! :D
For example तिष्ठति (tíṣṭhati) has meanings about duration, existence, firmness etc
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%B7%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A0%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF#Sanskrit; Gr. ῐ̔́στημῐ (hístēmi) is supposed to be derived from some reduplication of *steh₂-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%B5%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B7%CE%BC%CE%B9#Ancient_Greek
I wonder if in the case of hístēmi we do not have to deal with a reduplication of "stā-" but some older root like **Hs-to (like in the mentioned root of "sit" *(h)es- with a meaning perhaps of of something "set, put", which was simplified later... Anyway the word "existence" is from the some root stā- or *steh₂- (as also Gr. hypostasis).
There is also "steal" connected to Skr. त्सर् (tsar) "to sneak, to creep on, to go or approach stealthily"
"https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8D#Sanskrit
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/stelan%C4%85
this *tsel- (“to sneak”) is weird, though... the connection of steal with "sneak", opens the possibility of a meaning like "creep, crawl" (fit for burglars) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/sn%C4%ABkan%C4%85
with a notion of extending, perhaps; we have seen already the notions of "standing" and servant as "standing by"; though a meaning of "servant" was connected also to a notion of "turning" (< *kwel)....
I remembered now that nagara / nakar is also a word we have seen a meaning of "town, palace, stronghold" and "creeping" too :D
the connection of steal with "sneak", opens the possibility of a meaning like "creep, crawl" (fit for burglars) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/sn%C4%ABkan%C4%85
with a notion of extending, perhaps; we have seen already the notions of "standing" and servant as "standing by"; though a meaning of "servant" was connected also to a notion of "turning" (< *kwel)....
I remembered now that nagara / nakar is also a word we have seen a meaning of "town, palace, stronghold" and "creeping" too :D
Very nice :D .
Also, in case of *steh₂- we have Germ. Stuhl, English stool for "chair" etc:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/stool
Yes :) .
zuh for "steal" is also written with the same sign for zu "teeth" (zu2); maybe there was a connection with the notion of "cut", too (nagar "carpenter" could be connected to sem. qara. for cutting etc).
This is also the *tsel root (creep, sneak etc) in ToB, Pokorny etc:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=2430&root=config
Now, Mayrhofer connects with tsar another word for "thief" taskara:
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=taskara&direct=se
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/taskara
In Sumerian there is a word taškarin [BOXWOOD] (82x: ED IIIb, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. [ĝeš]taškarin; taškarin "box tree, boxwood" Akk. taskarinnu
Sp. Saksrit above there are taskara = myna tree [Vangueria Spinosa] also taskara Shoebutton plant [Ardisia humili], also taskara = sicklefruit fenugreek [Trigonella Corniculata]; maybe it is a coincidence, but it looks quite similar.
ePSD has some Sum. homonyms, like taškarin [KING] wr. [ĝeš]taskarin "king", taškarin [LUXURIANT] wr. [ĝeš]taskarin "luxuriant", taškarin [PURE] (2x: Old Babylonian) wr. [ĝeš]taskarin "pure" and taškarin [TALL] wr. [ĝeš]taskarin "tall", which are written exactly like taškarin "box tree, boxwood".
Maybe the notion about taškarin is something sharp or thorny; there is a word śalākā which means (among other sharp or pointed things) also this myna tree, "Vangueria Spinosa" (like taskara):
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=sAlaka&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
Kloekhorst says that Hit. tāye-/a- "to steal (from)" must be from some *teh2-ye/-o.
On the other hand, talking about a word zahhai / zahhi "battle, war" (Sum. ME), from zāh/zahh "to hit, to beat", assumed from a *tieh2-oi / tieh2-i? ; he also notes the different developement between these two similar roots (*teh2-ye > tāye- and *tieh2-oi > zahh); in Sumerian though there is a zuh for "steal"...
Maybe the notion about taškarin is something sharp or thorny; there is a word śalākā which means (among other sharp or pointed things) also this myna tree, "Vangueria Spinosa" (like taskara):
Intriguing , yes :) .
Kloekhorst says that Hit. tāye-/a- "to steal (from)" must be from some *teh2-ye/-o.
On the other hand, talking about a word zahhai / zahhi "battle, war" (Sum. ME), from zāh/zahh "to hit, to beat", assumed from a *tieh2-oi / tieh2-i? ; he also notes the different developement between these two similar roots (*teh2-ye > tāye- and *tieh2-oi > zahh); in Sumerian though there is a zuh for "steal"
I see.
There is also the question of the realation of zuh with tuku "to get, to acquire"; we have discussed that at Giacomo's third Sumerian post - there is an Austronesian takaw "steal", compared to "tuku", if you remember. Maybe zuh is from **tk'e(i)h? > tseih > zuh? This TK root was also about rulership etc (like ksháyati), perhaps related to this taškarin (as king); maybe the TK produced not only KT (as in Greek) and KSH (as in Sanskrit) but also some TS or ST; Just a thought...
maybe the TK produced not only KT (as in Greek) and KSH (as in Sanskrit) but also some TS or ST; Just a thought
Yes, interesting :) .
Also another possibility is a relation with Sum. kar "to flee; to take away (by force), remove; to deprive; to save" (accordin to J. Halloran is "kar: v., to take away; to steal; to raid, capture, pillage; to escape, run away; to avoid").
Yeah :) .
Greek has also a word στερέω stereo (not to be cofused with the stereo- "stiff" etc) which Pokorny thinks it is a cognate of "steal":
Root / lemma: ster-3 English meaning: to rob, steal Material: Gr. στερέω (att. στερίσκω only present) `rob', στέρομαι `bin stolen; looted, miss'; mir. serb `theft' (*ster-u̯ā); with l instead of r through hybridization with hehlen: got. stilan, aisl. stela, ags. ahd. stelan `steal'; there is a r/l alteration here:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%AD%CF%89
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1896
There is also a *stel "to put, to place; to locate":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/stel-
maybe connected to *steh2:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/steall#Old_English
Greek has also a word στερέω stereo (not to be cofused with the stereo- "stiff" etc) which Pokorny thinks it is a cognate of "steal":
Root / lemma: ster-3 English meaning: to rob, steal Material: Gr. στερέω (att. στερίσκω only present) `rob', στέρομαι `bin stolen; looted, miss'; mir. serb `theft' (*ster-u̯ā); with l instead of r through hybridization with hehlen: got. stilan, aisl. stela, ags. ahd. stelan `steal'; there is a r/l alteration here:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%AD%CF%89
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1896
I see Kyriakos :) .
There is also a *stel "to put, to place; to locate":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/stel-
maybe connected to *steh2:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/steall#Old_English
Yes :) .
About kar, I'm not sure if it is connected, yet this reading of uzga "treasure" as "uzugx(KA)" (zuh), indicates also a connection with "KA" (like ka-r, perhaps?).
I agree :D
Another curious thing is that the sign of "taškarin" is the same with tug (tug2) for "textile, garment"; also the same - or almost the same- with nam2 "prince; and except from "stalk" (that one would say that fits for a plant or tree), there is also a Gr. word στολή (stolḗ) "equipment, garment", from 3. stel- 'to put, place':
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dstolh%2F
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%BB%CE%AE
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1890
Another curious thing is that the sign of "taškarin" is the same with tug (tug2) for "textile, garment"; also the same - or almost the same- with nam2 "prince; and except from "stalk" (that one would say that fits for a plant or tree), there is also a Gr. word στολή (stolḗ) "equipment, garment", from 3. stel- 'to put, place':
Very nice! :) .
στέλλω (stéllō) means "I make ready, prepare; I furnish, dress", but also "I dispatch, send" etc (with apo- forms "apostle"https://www.etymonline.com/word/apostle
with epi- "epistle" https://www.etymonline.com/word/epistle etc)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%84%CE%AD%CE%BB%CE%BB%CF%89
the fact is that in Aeolic there are types with p, which means that the root must be *skwel >> *spel/*stel, like spole (for stole):
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dspola%2F
looks like *kwel/kwer, as if **(s)kwel; perhaps there is aconnection with zal "to get up early; to finish, come to an end; to dissolve, melt, disintegrate, break down, collapse; to quake; to pass time"; at least, about the "end, finish" notion resembles to "til", supposed to be connected to *kwel. Also, Halloran has zal[NI]: "n., supply. v., to be full or abundant; to flow; to continue; to pass, elapse (said about time); to spend the day; to tarry, wait (often with -ni-; with -ta- in a temporal sense)" and the the notion of supply fits, I think, with *stel and stole as "equipment".
the fact is that in Aeolic there are types with p, which means that the root must be *skwel >> *spel/*stel, like spole (for stole):
Yes :) .
looks like *kwel/kwer, as if **(s)kwel; perhaps there is aconnection with zal "to get up early; to finish, come to an end; to dissolve, melt, disintegrate, break down, collapse; to quake; to pass time"; at least, about the "end, finish" notion resembles to "til", supposed to be connected to *kwel. Also, Halloran has zal[NI]: "n., supply. v., to be full or abundant; to flow; to continue; to pass, elapse (said about time); to spend the day; to tarry, wait (often with -ni-; with -ta- in a temporal sense)" and the the notion of supply fits, I think, with *stel and stole as "equipment".
Very interesting :) .
This is probably irrelevent, but "taškarin" the tree reminded me Latin taxus = yew (tree):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/taxus
Interesting :) .
Maybe there is a connection through a kind of metathesis (sk/ks)...
About the connection with Sum. tug "garment", supposingly connected to *(s)teg (like toga etc, as it is on Giacomo's list), there are also reflexes for "concealing" here, also for "thief", like Sanskrit स्थग (sthaga, “cunning, fraudulent, to cover, to conceal”) hence स्थगति (sthagati, “he/she/it covers, he/she/it conceals”): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/thug#English:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/(s)teg-
So, that would fit for the connection with "thief".
About "taxus", one etymology points to teḱ- (here there is a connection to the other tḱey- "to cultivate, to settle, to live", but also tetḱ- "Reanalyzed reduplication from *teḱ- (“to sire, beget”)", meaning "to create, produce; to cut, hew" with tákṣati, Latin texo "weave", Gr. tekton and techne etc:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/te%E1%B8%B1-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/t%E1%B8%B1ey-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/tet%E1%B8%B1-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/texo#Latin
So, if there is a connection between tug, zuh, tuku and taškarin (an the above discussed IE roots), this could be perhaps through to some TK cluster like TTK (reduplicated TK like in tkei) > TKS (like in texo and maybe taxus) TSK (like in taškarin) and (with a metathesis like in s-teg, sthaga etc) STK; also a simple TK (for thak etc) or TKT (for Gr. tekton etc).
So, that would fit for the connection with "thief"
I agree :) .
this could be perhaps through to some TK cluster like TTK (reduplicated TK like in tkei) > TKS (like in texo and maybe taxus) TSK (like in taškarin) and (with a metathesis like in s-teg, sthaga etc) STK; also a simple TK (for thak etc) or TKT (for Gr. tekton etc).
Yes :) .
Something about *stel < **skwel (BTW Dziebel has proposed a PIE *skwel- ‘split, tear, rip’ >> *skel/*spel, if you remember); in German "stellen" we have also a notion of "shape, form" (like in Gestal, from ge-stalt)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Gestalt
and that reminds also the *kwel/*kwer root for "do" etc:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/k%CA%B7er-
which I thought connected with Sum. aĝarin "matrix" etc, which looks actually in form like "taškarin".
Yes, very interesting I think :) .
The notion of "cutting" is connected to the notion of "form, do" in these roots, I think; for example "spalten" looks like ge-stalten etc: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/spalten#Middle_High_German
Also, in the case of the trees, the "clothing, concealing" notion has to do with the folliage, obviously; and the impressive garments (not fit for simple people) to "king, prince" etc...
The notion of "cutting" is connected to the notion of "form, do" in these roots, I think; for example "spalten" looks like ge-stalten etc: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/spalten#Middle_High_German
Also, in the case of the trees, the "clothing, concealing" notion has to do with the folliage, obviously; and the impressive garments (not fit for simple people) to "king, prince" etc...
Yes looks good Kyriakos :) .
At the ePSD there are also aĝar "part of a garment"; aĝar "part of roof"; aĝar "a tool" - all written with the same way ("a2-ĝar").
Yes, good idea :) .
Returning to the possible connections between Sanskrit vā́stu, aste (maybe from an evolution of *h₁es- "to be"; with a meaning "to sit, to dwell"), also the root *wes-1 "to stay, live, spend the night", it's interesting to remember that there is also a *wes about "clothing, dressing":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/wes-
Indeed :) .
I remember also that Dziebel connected the **(s)kwel about "cut" with *pel for skin, cloth etc: https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1475
A wes-t root, on the other hand, could be connected (perhaps due to lenition) to a **KwS-t word which could be also connected to a "thorn cluster" as the ones above, I think. like KS < TK.
A wes-t root, on the other hand, could be connected (perhaps due to lenition) to a **KwS-t word which could be also connected to a "thorn cluster" as the ones above, I think. like KS < TK
Yes, I agree :) .
Certainly a Kost/Hst exists in the case if the words for "bone", also, like in Lat. costa "rib":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%83%C3%A9sth%E2%82%81
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/costa#Latin
I wonder, though, which "TK" could be behind the "KS" in this case; maybe it's *(s)teig?
Possible :) .
I remembered Sum. ti "rib" and the possibility of a connection with tig-. :)
oh yes :) .
I remembered now that Dziebel had connected also *gʷeyh₃- to the root of "be" (which we also connected to *h₁ésmi and the root of "was"):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/g%CA%B7eyh%E2%82%83-
http://kinshipstudies.org/blog/2014/07/23/indo-european-labiovelars-a-new-look/
yes :) .
The notions of "stealing" and "concealing & covering" made me tonight to note the similarity between Sum. zuh "thief" and "chokha", a kind of cloth; the word is of Persian origin, according to this Wikipedia article it means "outfit made of fabric":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chokha
Interesting :) .
Hi Nirjhar,
Without being sure, I was thinking today that (assuming the KʷKʷ = TK equation :D), we could probably connect also *(s)teg with *(s)kep; since a "kʷ" can be "k", "t" or "p", in several situations. Bomhard has it as *(s)t’ek’-/*(s)t’ok’-, as you have posted, on Giacomo's multifarious connection thread.
(assuming the KʷKʷ = TK equation :D
This is one of my loved ones :D .
we could probably connect also *(s)teg with *(s)kep; since a "kʷ" can be "k", "t" or "p", in several situations. Bomhard has it as *(s)t’ek’-/*(s)t’ok’-,
Yup :) .
:D It's just we don't know the circumstances which lead to these phonetic changes.:) there is also a Sum. abad "shelter" which one could say is the "PT" version (like the bad "wall" assumed connected to the TK of dehi etc...)
It's just we don't know the circumstances which lead to these phonetic changes.:)
Yes I agree :) .
Sum. abad "shelter" which one could say is the "PT" version (like the bad "wall" assumed connected to the TK of dehi etc...)
Yes! :) .
Akkadian wašābu [TUŠ] G. to sit ; to stay, dwell ; to be present, exist D. to install Š. to install < Proto-Semitic : *waθāb "to sit" Syriac : yāteb Hebrew : yāšaḃ Ugaritic : wθb, seems to include many of the notions discussed above about dwell, sit, exist etc; perhaps it's connected, too.
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=86&language=id
I agree :) .
Maybe also uš [FOUNDATION] (41x: Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. uš "foundation" Akk. uššu.
Yes :) .
About taskarin, I searched at lemma "taskarinnu" of CAD, and according to it "the tree is native to Upper Syria and Cyprus and its wood came to Mesopotamia as gifts, tribute or booty"; so, concerning a possible connection with "taskara", maybe we should look for some Indic or Indo-Aryan connection, from Mitanni maybe...
I agree :) .
Another uš "spell" (not at ePSD) leads to Akk. kaššāpu [LÚ.UŠ11.ZU] (n.) sorcerer, wizard, necromancer (?) http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=ka%C5%A1%C5%A1%C4%81pu&language=rawakkadian
ePSD has though a sibsib [SORCERESS] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. sibsib "sorceress" Akk. kaššaptu; and there is also ašāpu ((w)ašāpu(m)) "to exorcise , to cast / drive away demons; to cure (by exorcism); also wāšipu: 1) (human) an exorcist, a sorcerer, a magician, an incantory priest ; 2) (especially "Asalluḫi") : god of exorcism / magic ;
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=6568&language=id
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=6568&language=id
which is very close to wāšibu:a dweller, one who lives / dwells in a place an occupant , an inhabitant, a denizen (?) ;
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=6513&language=id
also uššābu
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=u%C5%A1%C5%A1%C4%81bu&language=rawakkadian
This reduplicated Sum. sib reminded me of Gr. σέβομαι (sébomai) "to feel awe or fear before God, especially when about to do something disgraceful; to feel shame, religious awe" (from a notion of "avoiding", from *tyegʷ- (“avoid, yield to”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CE%AD%CE%B2%CE%BF%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%B9#Ancient_Greek
(not sure though if it is compatible with sorcerer or spell...)
which is very close to wāšibu:a dweller, one who lives / dwells in a place an occupant , an inhabitant, a denizen (?) ;
Very interesting :) .
Sum. sib reminded me of Gr. σέβομαι (sébomai) "to feel awe or fear before God, especially when about to do something disgraceful; to feel shame, religious awe" (from a notion of "avoiding", from *tyegʷ- (“avoid, yield to”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CE%AD%CE%B2%CE%BF%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%B9#Ancient_Greek
(not sure though if it is compatible with sorcerer or spell...)
I think can be related :) .
I was thinking tonight that Gr. κλέπτω (kléptō) "steal"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%BB%CE%AD%CF%80%CF%84%CF%89
could be also from a **(s)kwel-kw? (kind of KrK root) = **kelp > *klep.
The sages say that a connection with Gr. καλύπτω (kaluptō) "cover, conceal" is not to be excluded. kalypto is from *ḱel- (“to cover”)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/%E1%B8%B1el-
Now, there is a Sum. halub [TREE] (110x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. ha-lu-ub2; [ĝeš]ha-lu-ub2; [ĝeš]ha-lu-ub4 "a tree" Akk. haluppu.
In arabic is probaly named ma-haleb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prunus_mahaleb
They connected it also to taskarin:
https://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.gr/&httpsredir=1&article=1012&context=penn_museum_papers
So, if taskarin is about "conealing" (connected with taskara "thief") and since halub seems to be close to kalyp- kalup- pf kalypto for "concealing" (with h < k, as in German); and kalypto is probably connected to *klep, used for "stealing"; then I think there is a possibility of the same notion of "concealing - covering" concerning the folliage of this tree "halub", as in "taskarin"; note that in CAD, there is also a Mari word "halupu" meaning a kind of garment (connec ted with halapu "to cover, clothe" (among other things):
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=6541&language=id
Tocharian B has a word kälyp- (vt.) ‘steal’ (which seems close to kalypto, too:
"The TchB subjunctive reflects PIE *klépye/o- ‘steal,’ exactly as in Greek kléptō ‘steal’ [: Latin clepō ‘steal,’ Gothic hlifan ‘id.,’ Old Prussian au-klipts ‘concealed,’ and possibly, if with s-mobile, Lithuanian slepiù ‘hide’ (with reduction of *skl- to sl-) (P:604; MA:595)] (VW, 1960:39, 1976:203). More distantly this word is related to both klep- ‘± touch with the fingers, investigate’ and kälp- ‘get, obtain,’ qq.v. (Adams, 1989b). See also kälpaṣṣuki and klepe."
There are also Dravidian words in Nostratic:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=1519&root=config
Eurasiatic: *q̇VlPV
Meaning: to steal, cheat
Indo-European: *(s)klep-
Kartvelian: Georg. q̇alb- 'to cheat, deceive, lie'
Dravidian: *kaḷ-
References: ND 1915 *q̇Aḷ/ĺAb/pV 'to hide, conceal' (+Arab.). Cf. *KuĺV?
could be also from a **(s)kwel-kw? (kind of KrK root) = **kelp > *klep.
The sages say that a connection with Gr. καλύπτω (kaluptō) "cover, conceal" is not to be excluded. kalypto is from *ḱel- (“to cover”)
Very interesting , yes :) .
So, if taskarin is about "conealing" (connected with taskara "thief") and since halub seems to be close to kalyp- kalup- pf kalypto for "concealing" (with h < k, as in German); and kalypto is probably connected to *klep, used for "stealing"; then I think there is a possibility of the same notion of "concealing - covering" concerning the folliage of this tree "halub", as in "taskarin"; note that in CAD, there is also a Mari word "halupu" meaning a kind of garment (connected with halapu "to cover, clothe" (among other things)
Very interesting :) .
See also kälpaṣṣuki and klepe."
There are also Dravidian words in Nostratic:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=1519&root=config
Eurasiatic: *q̇VlPV
Meaning: to steal, cheat
Indo-European: *(s)klep-
Kartvelian: Georg. q̇alb- 'to cheat, deceive, lie'
Dravidian: *kaḷ-
References: ND 1915 *q̇Aḷ/ĺAb/pV 'to hide, conceal' (+Arab.). Cf. *KuĺV?
Yes :) .
I am wondering now if the *ster/stel root about "steal" could be connected to the *ster of "firm" etc, maybe through the notion of "concealing" > "well protected" then "hard, firm" we were talking before (as a **KrK root); perhaps an intermediate form is the one of German stark "stiff" etc https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/stark
On the other hand, Akkadian ḫallupu (connected to ḫalāpu above) means "armoured, armour-clad ; [šupālītu ḫalluptu] : mail shirt , armoured tunic"
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=%E1%B8%ABallupu&language=rawakkadian
Sumerian has akar [ARMOR] wr. akar "armor" Akk. apluhtu
the "kar" of akar reminded me the conversation about "kar" we had before (Kerker etc, as a KrK root fir hardness); Akkad. apluhtu reminded me aplu, and the other apeileo "keep away, unroll" (frpm apo + eileo (<wel-)' :D
''I am wondering now if the *ster/stel root about "steal" could be connected to the *ster of "firm" etc, maybe through the notion of "concealing" > "well protected" then "hard, firm" we were talking before (as a **KrK root); perhaps an intermediate form is the one of German stark "stiff" etc https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/stark''
That's a very interesting idea! :) .
''On the other hand, Akkadian ḫallupu (connected to ḫalāpu above) means "armoured, armour-clad ; [šupālītu ḫalluptu] : mail shirt , armoured tunic"
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=%E1%B8%ABallupu&language=rawakkadian
Sumerian has akar [ARMOR] wr. akar "armor" Akk. apluhtu
the "kar" of akar reminded me the conversation about "kar" we had before (Kerker etc, as a KrK root fir hardness); Akkad. apluhtu reminded me aplu, and the other apeileo "keep away, unroll" (frpm apo + eileo (<wel-)' :D''
Yes :D .
Once again I am referring to Sum. kar [FLEE] (158x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. kar "to flee; to take away (by force), remove; to deprive; to save" Akk. ekēmu; eţēru; mašā'u; nērubu, derived also possibly from **(s)kwer.
Yes :) .
Because of the meaning "free" of "kar", I've made an assumption for a connection with the AA har/hur "free, noble", connbected with Arya by Giacomo; maybe there is also a connection with taškarin "king, pure, luxuriant".
Its a very nice proposal Kyriakos :) .
Also "thief" (if assumed as "robber") is connected sometimes with "freeman"; for example in modern Greek history we have the "klephts":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klepht
Yes , I agree :) .
Nirjhar, do you think that this Persian word for "army, soldier" is perhaps connected to taskara (t/l?):
https://www.etymonline.com/word/lascar
(btw, it seems that the name of a medieval Greek noble family is derived from "laskar"):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laskaris
I checked at Hesychius again and he has a word κλέπος klepos, meaning "tall (hypselon); moist; shaggy; and stolen thing"
· [ὑψηλόν.] [νοτερόν. δασύ. καὶ] φώριον, κλέμμα
https://el.wikisource.org/wiki/%CE%93%CE%BB%CF%8E%CF%83%CF%83%CE%B1%CE%B9/%CE%9A
Perseus Dictionary has only the "stolen" meaning (from *klep)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkle%2Fpos
There is also a κλέπας klepas "moist, muddy; shaggy; wet"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*k%3Aentry+group%3D125%3Aentry%3Dkle%2Fpas
I wonder if the klepos "tall" has somethning to do with taškarin = tall (concerning also the possible connection with "taskara" = thief / and *klep = steal)
Nirjhar, do you think that this Persian word for "army, soldier" is perhaps connected to taskara (t/l?):
Of course! . That word is also used in Bengali :) .
I wonder if the klepos "tall" has somethning to do with taškarin = tall (concerning also the possible connection with "taskara" = thief / and *klep = steal)
Very interesting :) .
I think that if *(s)klep for "thief" is an extension of *'kel (< **skwel-), then this klepos "tall" of Hesychius could be an extension of *kel "tower up" etc like in "hill" or "colophon":
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0878
I was thinking also about a connection with "cliff", but it seems to be from another root:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cliff
though one wonders always about the connection between the roots. There is also a *klep "wet, damp".
though one wonders always about the connection between the roots. There is also a *klep "wet, damp"
I agree :) .
I can imagine also some possible connection of *klep (< **kle-kw? < **kel-kw?) with *leh₂w- and λείᾱ (leíā) "booty, plunder; the act of plunder; stolen property; herd, flock":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BB%CE%B5%CE%AF%CE%B1#Ancient_Greek
From Proto-Indo-European *leh₂w-. Cognates include Sanskrit लोत (lota), Latin lucrum, Gothic 𐌻𐌰𐌿𐌽 (laun), Old Norse laun, Old English lean.
Due to some "plosive loss" (like in this theory of V. Diakoff, and as we have assumed before).
Yes very nice Kyriakos :) .
We have compared also a reduplicated Sum. liblib [PLUNDERER] (11x: Old Babylonian) wr. lib4-lib4 "plunderer" with this root, I think.
Also this φώριον phorion = κλέμμα klemma (stolen thing) of Hesychius is from φώρ phor `thief' (= lat. fūr) < *bher "carry", which is perhaps connected with *Hnk' (with a similar meaning), perhaps releted to Sum. nig "to acquire" etc; which through a Sumerian lib/nig equation is connected with "lib" :D.
Yeah :D .
Sum. hašhur "apple (tree)" Akk. hašhûru, could be also a product of some lenition / "plosive loss" of a root like of taškarin (TSK>HSH); Bomhard has connected it to the root of "ash-tree" *ōs, ōs-i-s, ō̆s-en-, os-k- (or *h₃osk-)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ash#English
Yet, according to this, hašhur means "apricot":
https://books.google.gr/books?id=5ckUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA79&lpg=PA79&dq=hashur+apple&source=bl&ots=tXWIMTGglg&sig=jXcs9v98hfb5tshbxWYfbJpw0HY&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj03OTvrPXYAhXFbhQKHTf1DmMQ6AEIQDAF#v=onepage&q=hashur%20apple&f=false
Maybe, then, hašhurmada "pear-tree; pear" means "hurma" :D
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hurma
Sum. hašhur "apple (tree)" Akk. hašhûru, could be also a product of some lenition / "plosive loss" of a root like of taškarin (TSK>HSH); Bomhard has connected it to the root of "ash-tree" *ōs, ōs-i-s, ō̆s-en-, os-k- (or *h₃osk-)
Very interesting :) .
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hurma
Can be , yeah :D .
At ePSD there is also armanu [TREE] (1x: unknown) wr. ar-ma-nu "a tree" Akk. armannu "apricot? tree"; equals {ĝeš}hašhur kur-ra.
Look for arguments about these things also here:
http://www.fundamentalarmenology.am/datas/pdfs/113.pdf
Yes, very interesting :) , thank you .
About other possible relations to "taskarin", there is also Gr. τόξον toxon "bow": Possibly a cognate of Latin taxus or borrowed from Iranian: compare Persian تخش (taxš, “crossbow”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CF%8C%CE%BE%CE%BF%CE%BD
There is also Gr. τάξις taxis < τᾰ́σσω (tássō, “I arrange”, “I order”, aorist passive participial stem: τᾰγ-, tag-) + -σῐς (-sis): "arrangement, ordering; battle array, order of battle; (military) rank, line of soldiers; post, place, position, rank; division, brigade, company, cohort; band, company; arrangement, disposition, manner, nature; assessment; order, good order; duty; order, class"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CF%8C%CE%BE%CE%BF%CE%BD
τᾰ́σσω (tássō, “I arrange”, “I order” < τᾰγ-, tag- is very close to ῐ̔́στημῐ (hístēmi) "to make to stand, to stand, set" etc < *steh₂-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%B5%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B7%CE%BC%CE%B9
it's only that tássō / taxis are used for military / administration purposes; if we combine these stems tag / steH, we reach a stem identical to *steg (to cover, to conceal etc - also to protect), I think.
it's only that tássō / taxis are used for military / administration purposes; if we combine these stems tag / steH, we reach a stem identical to *steg (to cover, to conceal etc - also to protect), I think.
Of course , I agree :) .
Maybe there is also a connection to haz [COVER] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. ha-az "cover", as HTK (instead of STK of *steg)> HSH/HSK; the latter remindes also "husk" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/husk
Interesting , yes :) .
I think it's interesting that the roots about "cut, tear" resemble the ones about "cover, conceal" etc; that is perhaps because the coverings are made by wood or leather; so the connection with "cut, tear" seems evident. If you remember, Dziebel proposes a PIE *skwel- ‘split, tear, rip’ giving IE *skel- and *(s)pel– ‘skin’; from here (8) :
http://kinshipstudies.org/blog/2014/07/23/indo-european-labiovelars-a-new-look/
I agree :) .
Perhaps is same with *(s)ker and *der; in Greek there is a word ῥινός rhinos "skin of a living person, hide of a beast, oxhide shield, pl., thongs of boxing-gloves, leather of a sling"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dr(ino%2Fs
etymology: from ϝρι_νός [wrinos], as shown by γρῖνος [grinos]: δέρμα [derma = skin], Hesychius.
Frisk thinks that it is connected to the root of "write" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/write
but with an -n ending, like the one in dṛṇā́ti
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=drina&direct=se
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%83%E0%A4%A3%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF#Sanskrit
The reason that i wrote that, is that rhinos reminds me of this Sum. word:
hirin [OBJECT] wr. hirin2; hurin "a leather object" Akk. zinbuharu
without being sure, of course; this is a wild guess.
The reason that i wrote that, is that rhinos reminds me of this Sum. word:
hirin [OBJECT] wr. hirin2; hurin "a leather object" Akk. zinbuharu
without being sure, of course; this is a wild guess.
Yes , very nice Kyriakos :) .
:D The other "rhino" in Greek is from ῥῑνός (rhīnós) f, genitive singular of ῥῑ́ς (rhī́s) "nose"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BF%A5%CE%AF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BF%A5%CE%B9%CE%BD%CF%8C%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
maybe there is a connection with Sum. kiri [NOSE] (72x: Old Babylonian) wr. kiri3 "nose" Akk. appu; maybe through a lenition k?h and an "n" ending, like the other rhinos; I wouldn't exclude a meaning of "cut", like "pointed" :D
yeah :D .
There is also Sum. hur "to scratch, draw".
Another Sum. word hurrum [CAVE] (18x: Old Babylonian) wr. hur-ru-um; hur-rumum "cave", reminded me of Gr. χηραμός kheeramos "hole, cleft, hollow":
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dxhramo%2Fs
According to Pokorny it belongs to "ĝhē-2:ghǝ- and ĝhēi-:ĝhī- "to gape, yawn".
Very nice :) .
There is another Sum. word hiritum [DITCH] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. hi-ri-tum2 "ditch", which looks also like "write"; though there are two Germanic words, wrītaną and hrītaną (about "scratch" etc), and this hiritum looks like the second one (German reißen "to tear" etc seems also connected):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/hr%C4%ABtan%C4%85
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rei%C3%9Fen#German
I agree! :) .
About Sum. hirim [GRASS] (3x: Old Babylonian) wr. hirim; hirinx(KWU318) "a grass" Akk. arantu; lardu; Halloran has it as "hirin, hirim: the root stalks of the spikenard, imported from India, and used in perfumes; a weed grass (he, 'abundant', + ir, 'perfume', + in, 'straw')"
Maybe the meaning is though about "sharp, pointed" also here?
Possible :) .
Obviously Accadian "lardu" is the same with Gr. νάρδος nardos, ultimately from Skrt. nálada (possible via some Semitic source):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BD%CE%AC%CF%81%CE%B4%CE%BF%CF%82
It's funny that in Greek this word is with "r", while in Indic is with "l".
Obviously Accadian "lardu" is the same with Gr. νάρδος nardos, ultimately from Skrt. nálada (possible via some Semitic source):
Yes , I agree :) .
It's funny that in Greek this word is with "r", while in Indic is with "l".
Yes,mostly its the opposite :) .
Sum. hub [FOOT] (5x: Old Babylonian) wr. hub2 "foot" reminded me of Gr. ὁπλή hople "hoof" (hop-le): http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Do(plh%2F
supposingly connected with ὅπλον hoplon "tool, implement"; also "weapon, penis" etc; for this latter they assume a derivation from *sep 'to honor, care for, concern oneself with'
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%85%CF%80%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%BD#Ancient_Greek
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1697
though Gr. hepo ἕπω (A) means "to be about, busy oneself with":
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*e%3Aentry+group%3D244%3Aentry%3De%28%2Fpw1
Also the notion of "hoof" as derived supposingly from a word for "tool" confuses me :/
There is also the s>h which makes this comparison difficult.
It seems that there is a Skrt. word "sapa" for penis, though.
Also the notion of "hoof" as derived supposingly from a word for "tool" confuses me :/
Indeed :) .
There is also the s>h which makes this comparison difficult.
I agree .
It seems that there is a Skrt. word "sapa" for penis, though.
Yes, shapa .
Mayrhofer is referring to a Hittite root hasp- "handle, come to grips with with, take care of, dispose of"; with *sep being *Hs-ep > (H-esp > Hit. hasp)
Though the only solution for a connection with Sum. hub could be some (s)Hep instead :P
btw, Hit. hasp reminds also Gr. aspis "shield" (which is also called the "hoplon" (weapon); maybe it belongs to a "Anatolian" layer of Greek - the etymology given is from *spey:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CF%83%CF%80%CE%AF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%80%CE%AF%CE%B6%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
btw, Hit. hasp reminds also Gr. aspis "shield" (which is also called the "hoplon" (weapon); maybe it belongs to a "Anatolian" layer of Greek
I think too :) .
Also, aspis / hoplon "shield" is circular
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__mH8Xa7Sto
and there is also a Sum. hub "wheel", I think.
and there is also a Sum. hub "wheel", I think.
That is very interesting ! :) . Thanks for the video link !.
hubum [WHEEL] (27x: Ur III, Early Old Babylonian) wr. urudhu-bu-um; ĝešhu-bu-um; ĝešhu-bu3-um "a wheel" Akk. hūpu
The video link is at the bottom of the wikipedia page about aspis :)
Its very good :) .
Some random thoughts today, Nirjhar...
Another Gr. word for "hoof" is χηλή (khēlḗ) or χᾱλά (khālā́) Doric. Traditionally connected with χηρᾰμός (khēramós, “hole, hollow”), χήμη (khḗmē, “yawning, gaping”), and χάσκω (kháskō, “I yawn, gape”), but obscure.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%87%CE%B7%CE%BB%CE%AE
That looks perhaps like ĝiri [FOOT] (10822x: Lagash II, Ur III) wr. ĝiri3; me-ri; ĝiri16 "via, by means of, under the authority of someone; foot; path" Akk. šēpu
The Semitic root of šēpu is also interesting :
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=+100&root=config
Also Proto-Afro-Asiatic: *ĉayṗ-
Meaning: foot, sole; shoe
Semitic: *ŝayṗ- 'foot, sole of foot; shoe'
Egyptian: šp 'hoof' (Gr)
Beḍauye (Beja): šib 'to shoe', šab 'to be shod, put on one's footgear'
Central Cushitic (Agaw): *šanp/b- 'foot, heel'
South Cushitic: *ʔi-šib- 'sandal'
(note Egyptian šp 'hoof' - remindes of hople :D)
Meanwhile, "hoof" is "from Proto-Indo-European *ḱoph₂ós (compare Russian копы́то (kopýto, “hoof”), копа́ть (kopátʹ, “to dig”), Avestan (safa, “hoof”), Sanskrit शफ (śaphá, “hoof, claw”)).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hoof
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=+206&root=config
χηλή (khēlḗ) or χᾱλά (khālā́) reminds also Sanskrit khura ''a hoof , horse's hoof Ka1tyS3r. Mn. &c. (ifc. f. %{A} [g. %{kroDA7di}] MBh. i Hcat. ; once %{I} , i , 7 , 38) ; a particular part of the foot of a bedstead VarBr2S. lxxix ; a sort of perfume (dried shellfish shaped like a hoof) L. ; (for %{kSura4}) a razor L. ; (%{I}) f. g. %{bahv-Adi} (not in Ka1s3. and g. %{zoNA7di}).''
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=khura&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
That looks perhaps like ĝiri [FOOT] (10822x: Lagash II, Ur III) wr. ĝiri3; me-ri; ĝiri16 "via, by means of, under the authority of someone; foot; path" Akk. šēpu
I agree :) .
(note Egyptian šp 'hoof' - remindes of hople :D)
Yeah :D .
This *ḱoph₂ós about "hoof" reminds me again gub "to stand; (to be) assigned (to a task)" Akk. izuzzu; also as "śaphá" reminded me Gr. sapha "clear" etc (like a Hittite and a Semitic word, I think, we have discussed about that on Giacomo's post), and there is also a Sum. gub [BATHE] (4x: ED IIIb, Old Babylonian) wr. gub2 "to bathe, wash oneself; (to be) pure" Akk. ramāku, if you remember :D
Wonderful Kyriakos :D .
Concerning *sep about "honoring, taking care of" etc, the other root about "care, serve" etc *ken (like "deacon" etc), was somehow again related to a notion of "round" (like kanda for ball, this *ken was about "rub", fitting also for a wheel), or even "ash" (perhaps related to feet).
I agree :) .
And of course *ken was about itching etc, maybe also cutting, like the compared Sum. kinda "barber"; I noticed a Sum. hubhub "pointed" yesterday (fitting also to foot).
yes :) .
Sum. ĝiri was also about "cut": ĝiri [DAGGER] (198x: ED IIIb, Ebla, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ĝiri2; [urud]ĝiri2; me2-er; me-er; me-ri "razor; sword, dagger" Akk. naglabu; patru (ĝiri was also about "sceleton, bones", in ĝiripadra :D).
About the possible connection of *ken with *sep, this could be perhaps through the type as **(s)kwe-n-d (to fit Gr. spodos/konis "ash"), or maybe H(s)kwe-(n-d) > like Hspe- > hasp- (Anat.) or *sep (others); maybe also *pod/*ped for "foot" (from some (s)kwe-d, without the n?)
Sum. ĝiri was also about "cut": ĝiri [DAGGER] (198x: ED IIIb, Ebla, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ĝiri2; [urud]ĝiri2; me2-er; me-er; me-ri "razor; sword, dagger" Akk. naglabu; patru (ĝiri was also about "sceleton, bones", in ĝiripadra :D).
Yup :) .
About the possible connection of *ken with *sep, this could be perhaps through the type as **(s)kwe-n-d (to fit Gr. spodos/konis "ash"), or maybe H(s)kwe-(n-d) > like Hspe- > hasp- (Anat.) or *sep (others); maybe also *pod/*ped for "foot" (from some (s)kwe-d, without the n?)
I think so .
Anatolian "Hasp" looks also like "Hast-" for "bone"; since kw > p / t (from H(s)kwe-(n-d) > Hste- > hast-); it fits also to the connection of "bone" with kandha "shoulder", I think.
Yes, I agree :) .
Not sure, but I think Whittaker has proposed this comparison (or a similar one): of Sum. ĝiri "dagger" to *ǵʰḗr (“hedgehog”), like in Latin "ēr":
From Proto-Italic *hēr, from Proto-Indo-European *ǵʰḗr (“hedgehog”) (whence also Ancient Greek χήρ (khḗr, “hedgehog”)), a root noun from *ǵʰer- (“to be excited, be bristly”), whence also Ancient Greek χοῖρος (khoîros, “young pig”) and Albanian derr (“pig”) from *ǵʰór-yos.[1]
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/er#Latin
I see .
To make a connection with χηλή khēle, we must suppose a ǵʰer/l though...
There is also a verb χηλεύω khēlauo "to net, plait":
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dxhleu%2Fw
True :) .
khēlē and hoplē mean both "hoof", maybe there is a distant connection between them (not sure what it would be, though); hubhub means "a container or tube" Akk. huphuppu
There is a word χηλός khēlos "a large chest or coffer"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*x%3Aentry+group%3D7%3Aentry%3Dxhlo%2Fs
Interesting :) .
Nirjhar, what about this Javanese - Indonesian dagger?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris
"The word kris derives from the Old Javanese term ngiris (Javanese: ꦔꦶꦫꦶꦱ꧀) which means to slice, wedge or sliver. "Kris" is the more frequently used spelling in the West, but "keris" is more popular in the dagger's native lands"
ĝiri "dagger" and "ngiris" seem to be identical.
ĝiri "dagger" and "ngiris" seem to be identical.
Yes! :) .
In Philippines is known as kalis (r/l):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalis
I'm wondering now if there could be some relation with Gr. μάχαιρα makhaira "large knife, short sword, dirk, dagger":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BC%CE%AC%CF%87%CE%B1%CE%B9%CF%81%CE%B1
I'm wondering now if there could be some relation with Gr. μάχαιρα makhaira "large knife, short sword, dirk, dagger":
Very interseting :) .
Hi Nirjhar,
It seems that "ng-" in Javanese is a kind of particle; here says iris/irisan: slice, cut piece and ngiris "to cut"
https://books.google.gr/books?id=-ZvTAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT527&lpg=PT527&dq=ngiris+dictionary+cut&source=bl&ots=53mEdkU2xJ&sig=NxGIHqjYX6Lht5XVLLgZ0tjfl4w&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiB0tOnlf_YAhXC7BQKHQOeAewQ6AEIQzAD#v=onepage&q=ngiris%20dictionary%20cut&f=false
Yes, interesting :) .
Yes, my first reaction to this was to think if there could be a connection of Sum. ĝiri "foot" to ere "go"; perhaps also to IE er/ir "move" :D
Maybe also about iri "city" and nagara? :D
Yes, my first reaction to this was to think if there could be a connection of Sum. ĝiri "foot" to ere "go"; perhaps also to IE er/ir "move" :D
Yeah :D .
Maybe also about iri "city" and nagara? :D
! :D .
Also, this Anatolian "Hasp" <> *sep/sap (about taking care, handle etc) reminded me the *Hast ("to be") and "sat-" of satya (maybe also Gr. eteos).
Good comparisons .
I mean, in Greek the stem is hi-stā-, though it seems to be from a reduplication process.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%B5%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B7%CE%BC%CE%B9
Yes! :) .
You forgot the *sed / *stā comparison :D
Yes, I like the comparison Kyriakos :D .
This Javanese iris/irisan: slice, cut piece reminds again the root of writana etc (in Pokorny is u̯er-7 (*su̯er-); for example there is also a Gr. word ῥίνη rhinē meaning "file, rasp":
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dr(i%2Fnh
Yes, I agree :) .
I still think that *(s)ker/*(s)kel "cut" is related (the word for "legs" in Linear B is "kerea", if you remember); perhaps as **skwel/r); this (s)k- is like the (n)g-.
Yes .
"Obviously" :D Sum. ašte, Skrt. aste, vastu etc fit to this scheme, I think (I mean the *sed / *stā comparison).
I agree :D .
And if we follow the K/H scheme, like Ksta/(K)sed instead of Hsta/(H)sed we could have something similar with ksiti (about "dwelling") :D
Yes! :) .
Yeah, a connection could be established with with *tḱéy (and *ḱéy) :D
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/t%E1%B8%B1ey-
like Sum. šed "to lie down (of animals); to rest, sleep (of animals)" Akk. itūlu; rabāşu.
The other similar *tk(')ēy- about "possesion" etc (compared with Sum. tuku)
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=1605&root=config
fits with the steya "thief", zuh etc, as said.
But *steg about covering and roof etc, fits toi both, I think (dwell, steal) :D
I agree! :) .
The other similar *tk(')ēy- about "possesion" etc (compared with Sum. tuku)
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=1605&root=config
fits with the steya "thief", zuh etc, as said.
But *steg about covering and roof etc, fits toi both, I think (dwell, steal) :D
I agree with you , very nice ! :) .
There is also a KST in Sum. kešda [ROOFING] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. [ĝeš]keš2-da "roofing, top story" Akk. taşliltu; connected probably to kešed [BIND] (853x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. keš2 "to bind" Akk. rakāsu.
Yes of course :) .
Btw, do you think kaš [DECISION] (72x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ka-aš; ga-eš8 "decision" could be connected to this Nostratic root? (not remembering if we have proposed that)
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2Fdata%2Fnostr%2Fnostret&text_number=+854&root=config
Eurasiatic: *ḳVcwV ( ~ -c`w-, -č`w-)
Meaning: to think, consider
Indo-European: *k'[ē]s-
Altaic: (Jap. kasikǝ-)
Uralic: *kačV (*kočV)
Eskimo-Aleut: *kǝc-ǝt-
Proto-IE: *k'[ē]s-
Meaning: to show, to lead
Old Indian: śā́ste, śāsti `to correct, censure, control, teach', ptc. aor. śiṣánt- `teaching', ptc. śiṣṭá- `taught, controlled, shown'; śāstar- `chastiser, punisher'; śāstrá- n. `order, command; treatise'
Avestan: sāsti `heisst, lehrt'; sāstar- `Gebieter, Machthaber, Fürst'
Armenian: sast `Schelte, Vorwurf, Drohung, Strenge, Autorität', sastem `schelte, drohe, schärfe ein, gebiete', sastik `heftig'
I think the relation is probable .
Do you think this kaš could be also connected to a notion of "bind"? I am trying to figure out if a type āśāsti "a prayer" http://www.sanskritdictionary.com/%C4%81%C5%9B%C4%81sti/31603/1
could be connected to Sum. šita [PRAYER] (14x: Old Babylonian) wr. šita "prayer" Akk. riksu "binding, knot, bond".
Yes, I like the notion ! :) .
Another wissful thinking is a possible connevtion of *gʷʰedʰ- (for "ask, pray" etc) with bʰendʰ- "bind") like from *gʷʰe(n)dʰ :
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/g%CA%B7%CA%B0ed%CA%B0-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/b%CA%B0end%CA%B0-
I see.
It is also supposed that the root of Skrt. s'as is found possibly in Gr. ἕκαστος (hékastos) "each (one) from ἑκάς (hekás) "afar, far off; long after"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%95%CE%BA%CE%B1%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%91%CE%BA%CE%AC%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
same in ἀνδρακάς andrakás "man by man": "-κάς perh. cognate with Skt. -śás in dviśás 'two by two', etc."
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Da)ndraka%2Fs1
this notion looks like the opposite of binding :/ ; remembers tar "to cut down; to untie, loosen; to cut; to scatter, disperse; to decide".
hmmm yes I agree .
In Halloran's Lexicon šita as a word is connected also to šid [COUNT] (292x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. šid "count(ing); number; half (shares); to count" Akk. minûtu; mišlānū
šìta: channel, small canal (šè, 'portion' + ída, íd, i7, 'main canal') [ŠITA3 archaic frequency: 139; concatenation of 2 sign variants].
šita(4), èšda; šid3,4,5: n., band; bond, tie (šè, 'portion', + te, 'to approach'; cf., ašte, téš).
v., to bind; to be together; to join, link with; to couple.
adj., bound, intact.
šita5, šit, šid, šed: n., measure; number (šè, 'portion', + ta, dá, 'nature, character').
v., to count; to consider; to calculate, figure out; to memorize; to recite; to read aloud.
In ePSD there is šitadu [ACCOUNTANT] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. šita5-du3 "accountant" Akk. pāqidu
maybe this kind of "šita" (as HS-T) is connected with Skt. -śás and Gr. -κάς -kas (for "one by one" (as a kind of KS-T, like in Gr. he-kas-tos)
Yes, Kyriakos ! :) .
I mean, if "cut" (as it seems) is connected to the notions of "seat" and "doing/ constructing", then why not also with "ordering" or even "binding", if the meaning of "cut" in this case is about arrangeing things (like one by one).
It's a bit funny, but I've noticed also that the Eskimo root (*kǝc-ǝt-) was about "counting":
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fesq%2fesqet&text_number=++63&root=config
I agree :) .
There is also ešbar [DECISION] (44x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. eš-bar; eš5-bar "decision" Akk. purussûm and ešbar kiĝ [DECIDE] (14x: Old Babylonian) wr. eš-bar kiĝ2 "to make a decision"
probably as a type of HS instead of the KS, like in kaš [DECISION] (72x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ka-aš; ga-eš8 "decision", kaš bar [MAKE A DECISION] wr. ka-aš bar "to make a decision" Akk. ?
probably as a type of HS instead of the KS, like in kaš [DECISION] (72x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ka-aš; ga-eš8 "decision", kaš bar [MAKE A DECISION] wr. ka-aš bar "to make a decision" Akk. ?
Good suggestion :) .
btw, since kaš is a "KS" root, I think that the best candidate for a TK :D one is 1. dek̑- 'to take' etc (because of the many reflexes about "teach, right" etc).
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0326
I think that the best candidate for a TK :D one is 1. dek̑- 'to take' etc (because of the many reflexes about "teach, right" etc).
Yeah! :D
:D In the reality there is a Tocharian A täk- to judge (IE *dek'- 'to judge'); Pokorny says Toch. A täk- "urteilen, entscheiden" (to judge, to decide).
https://tied.verbix.com/project/glossary/toch.html
oh yes :) .
Do you think that this root (*dens) about "mental power" etc could be connected to *dek'-?
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0338
It would require a k'> s'> s
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