About a meaning "turn", there is also Gr. τροχός trochos "wheel, running" etc :D https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%87%CF%8C%CF%82
From Proto-Indo-European *dʰrogʰos, from Proto-Indo-European *dʰregʰ- (whence τρέχω (trékhō, “I run”). Cognates include Old Irish droch, and Old Armenian դուրգն (durgn, “potter's wheel”).
There must be many "layers" inside Greek; about "food" etc, I think there is a similar word to στρέφω strepho https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%84%CF%81%CE%AD%CF%86%CF%89
This is τρέφω trepho "to thichen, to feed, to bring up, to nourish, to grow, to foster" etc, which seems belonging to the *strebʰ- root of στρέφω strepho (without the "s"): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CF%81%CE%AD%CF%86%CF%89
"According to Beekes, Pre-Greek substratum word. Within Indo-European family it's usually compared to Lithuanian drìbti (“to fall down in flakes”) and drė̃bti (“to throw a thick fluid”) but with unclear semantic connection, as well as expressions for "dregs" in Celtic, Germanic and Slavic, linking it to Proto-Indo-European *dʰrobʰ-.
I have the strong impression, that what is called Pre-Greek is actually also Indo-European . The thing is also considerable that Mycenaeans and Minoans were also very similar to each other genetically .
Concerning a Sum. word similar to endib "cook", there is also Sum. dib [BURN] wr. dib "to burn; wrath" Akk. kabābu; kimiltu. Maybe of a similar origin with the above mentioned root for "burn" (like δαίω etc).
"I have the strong impression, that what is called Pre-Greek is actually also Indo-European . The thing is also considerable that Mycenaeans and Minoans were also very similar to each other genetically ."
Yes, that is also my impression too. There are obviously some non IE words in Greek, but there are many others with no clear etymology, which seem to be just more archaic.
I have the impression that Sum. dib for "burn, angry" fits rather well to Skrt. darpa, especially in some "drp", let's say words, like pradRpti "arrogance, madness" or adRpta "sober minded, non vitiated" (dRp vocalized a "dib" in Sumerian).
I have the impression that Sum. dib for "burn, angry" fits rather well to Skrt. darpa, especially in some "drp", let's say words, like pradRpti "arrogance, madness" or adRpta "sober minded, non vitiated" (dRp vocalized a "dib" in Sumerian). .
Yes I agree Kyriakos :).
About darpa and Sum. dib Mayrhofer (lemma DARP) mentions a Pali word dappita "arrogant, haughty".
Hi, Nirjhar, I was thinking today about another Gr. verb which seems to be close with (some of) the meaning of dib, or tab, dab etc (but without the initial t or d), the following one:
ᾰ̔́πτω (háptō)" 1. to kindle, set on fire, fasten fire to 2. to fasten to, bind fast, to join to;(middle) to fasten myself to, cling to, hang on by, lay hold of, grasp, touch; (middle) to reach the mark;(middle) to engage in, take part in; (middle) to set upon, attack, assail; (middle) to touch, affect;(middle) to grasp with the senses, apprehend, perceive;(middle) to come up to, reach, gain.
It is not only a r / l missing sometimes, it is also the initial letter, for some reason; what do you think?
There is this Pokorny's root: *tap-1 English meaning "to dip" (Germ. eintauchen).
Material: Arm. t`at`avem `tauche ein', t`ōn (*tapni-) `Feuchtigkeit, Nässe, Regen'; aksl. topiti `immergere', *to(p)nǫti `immergi', dazu u. a. nsorb. toń `Tümpel', čech. tu̇ně `Vertiefung im Flusse', russ. tónja `geschützte Bucht'.
The root for "dip" is this one: From Old High German toufen, from Proto-Germanic *daupijaną. Compare Old Saxon dōpian, Dutch dopen, Old English dīepan, Gothic (daupjan). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/daupijan%C4%85
Proto-Germanic "daupijaną" is Causative from Proto-Indo-European *dʰewb-, from which also *deupaz (“deep”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/daupijan%C4%85
while in Greek there is also βάπτω (báptō)"to dip, submerge; dye, colour; baptise" From Proto-Indo-European *gʷabʰ-. Cognate with Icelandic kafa. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B2%CE%AC%CF%80%CF%84%CF%89
One could have the sense that all these roots are somehow connected, I think.
There is another similar Sum. word: dib [PASS] (299x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. dib; dib2; di-ib "to pass, go along; to go past; to go through; to cross over; to audit; to transfer" Akk. bâ'u; etēqu
I was wondering weather it could be compared to some root like the one of "dip" (I mean like "passing, go along, go through, cross over" in the case of "dip" is "through the water", in other cases maybe "with my hands touching" etc (as in some other reflexes of ToB).
Maybe Sum. dib is an extended form of Sum. di = "to go".
About to dip , drown etc compare also these Indic forms :
''ḍubb 5561 *ḍubb ʻ sink ʼ. 2. Caus. *ḍōbb -- . [Metath. of MIA. buḍḍaï < *buḍyati. Cf. *ṭubb -- ] 1. Paš. ḍub -- ʻ to be drowned ʼ, Mai. ḍūb -- ; Phal. ḍup ʻ sinking ʼ; Sh. (Lor.) ḍup ʻ plunged in ʼ; K. ḍubun ʻ to dive, sink, be ruined ʼ; P. ḍubbṇā ʻ to sink ʼ; WPah. khaś. ḍubbnu ʻ to sink, prick ʼ; Ku. ḍubṇo ʻ to sink ʼ, N. ḍubnu, A. ḍubiba, B. ḍubā, Or. ḍubibā, Mth. ḍubab, H. ḍū˘bnā, G. ḍubvũ, M. ḍubṇẽ (whence ḍubakṇẽ ʻ to gambol in the water ʼ, ḍubkaḷṇẽ ʻ to dip ʼ); -- M. ḍũbṇẽ, ḍũbhṇẽ, ḍumṇẽ ʻ to gambol in the water ʼ. 2. P. ḍobṇā tr. ʻ to plunge in ʼ, Ku. ḍobṇo, N. ḍobnu; H. ḍobnā ʻ to dip, dye ʼ; M. ḍobṇẽ ʻ to immerse ʼ. ḍumba -- see ḍōmba -- . *ḍumbara -- ʻ Ficus glomerata ʼ see udumbára -- . Addenda: *ḍubb -- . 1. S.kcch. ḍubṇū ʻ to sink, be drowned ʼ; WPah.kṭg. (kc.) ḍvbṇõ ʻ to drive, sink, drown ʼ, caus. ḍəbeuṇõ.'' http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.1.soas.1592651 http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.1.soas.1485303 http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.2.soas.1970167
I was wondering weather it could be compared to some root like the one of "dip" (I mean like "passing, go along, go through, cross over" in the case of "dip" is "through the water", in other cases maybe "with my hands touching" etc (as in some other reflexes of ToB).
Yeah I think too :) .
.Maybe Sum. dib is an extended form of Sum. di = "to go". .
Perhaps these two are the same :) : https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/d%CA%B0ewb- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bottom#Etymology
and it is clearly suggested here as I find now :D : https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/b%CA%B0ud%CA%B0m%E1%B8%97n
About "burying", actually I think we have discussed already about that, in Greek the word is θάπτω (tháptō): From Proto-Hellenic *tʰapťō, perhaps from a Proto-Indo-European *dʰembʰ-, with cognates including Old Armenian դամբան (damban, “tomb”). Could also be a loanword.
About "burying", actually I think we have discussed already about that, in Greek the word is θάπτω (tháptō): From Proto-Hellenic *tʰapťō, perhaps from a Proto-Indo-European *dʰembʰ-, with cognates including Old Armenian դամբան (damban, “tomb”). Could also be a loanword.
Yeah :) .
This *dʰembʰ looks close to *dʰewb for dip and deep. So, now I guess I've made reference to almost every Gr. verb in -apťō :D
:D About toprak and topos, it means "place", yet one of its meaning can be "burial place", yes :) (n. 5 here):
I meant also the "binding, attachment" meaning of topos (like in τοπήιον topeion "rope") :)
About a dib/dub equation, you have written also about a year before (about Sum. dub 'tablet' and dubsar 'scribe' ('tablet-writer'), dub 'to push away, down; to smash, abolish' (Akkadian translation), PIE *(s)tup/tub/tubh 'to hit, beat', Greek typtein 'to beat, strike', typos 'blow, impression of a seal, mould etc Hindi ṭhappā m. ʻstamp, mouldʼ, also Elamite tippi, Proto-Afro-Asiatic: *ṭibaʕ- "push", Central Chadic: *tibaʔ- 'press flat hand against smth', Low East Cushitic: *ḍib- < *ḍiHab- 'push' etc; I added a word of Hesychius διψάρα "dipsara" = δέλτος deltos (tablet for writing), apparently a loan from "dub-sar".
According to Hesychius διψάρα dipsara also means διφθέρα diphthera "piece of leather" (especially as a writing material)
"The origin is uncertain. Related to διψάρα (dipsára, “writing-tablet; piece of leather”) and Mycenaean Greek (di-pte-ra)."
Since de Saussure, connected with δέφω (déphō) or δέψω (dépsō, “to soften (with the hand)”). Beekes argues that this connection and the alternation φ ~ ψ point to a Pre-Greek origin."
Latin littera (and English "letter") perhaps comes from this word: https://www.etymonline.com/word/letter
diphthera looks a bit like "depth" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/depth I habe an impression that many of these words we're talking about (I mean in Greek) are connected to some stratum close to Germanic. Nirjhar, the "ps" phoneme is also present in Sanskrit, isn't it?
Maybe also toprak and dip / deep are connected because of a notion of "salty" (like of an arid desert and the salty sea) :D One could say that a topos is a place that one is deeply attached with it :D
Good suggestions :D .
I meant also the "binding, attachment" meaning of topos (like in τοπήιον topeion "rope") :)
Yeah :).
I mean, the "dub" could be also pronounced as "dib" (maybe from a **deub, or something).
I agree :).
Nirjhar, the "ps" phoneme is also present in Sanskrit, isn't it?
I am not sure :/ .
looks like if it is connected to Proto-IE: *tAp- (of ToB) "to drown" etc, somehow; maybe some version like *dabh?
About Sum. di, according to Halloran's lexicon, it means: "to judge, decide; to conduct oneself; to go; to escape"; as for the meaning "to go; escape" I think that the comparison with Gr. δίω dio "to run away" fits fine.
It seems that Latin terra "earth" is connected to dryness also: From Proto-Indo-European *ters- (“dry”). Cognates include torreō, Ancient Greek τέρσομαι (térsomai), Old Irish tír, Sanskrit तृष्यति (tṛṣyati) and Old English þurst (English thirst).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/terra#Latin
Nostratic from ToB: urasiatic: *ṭVŕV Meaning: earth, dust Borean: Borean Indo-European: *tēr-os- (?) Altaic: *t`ōŕe (cf. also *t`ēŕu) Kartvelian: *mṭwe[r]- (hardly Georg. txur- - just as txun-, obviously derived < tixa 'dirt, earth') Dravidian: *tur- Eskimo-Aleut: *tar-(r)u- Comments: For PA *t`ēŕu 'dirt' cf. PIE *der- 'faeces'? References: ND 2422 *ṭoχ/quryV 'dirt, be dirty', 2430 *ṭUryV 'litter, dirt, dust' (hardly different).
About Sum. di, according to Halloran's lexicon, it means: "to judge, decide; to conduct oneself; to go; to escape"; as for the meaning "to go; escape" I think that the comparison with Gr. δίω dio "to run away" fits fine.
Surely :) . It seems that Latin terra "earth" is connected to dryness also
About Gr. δέφω depho, I remembered now a note in Kloekhorst's paper about "thorn clusters": "Could the corresponding root *degwh- be found in Gr.δέφω ‘to knead, to masturbate’ < *degwh-?" http://www.kloekhorst.nl/KloekhorstPIEThornClusters.pdf (page 14, note 46)
That reminded me Sum. deg [COLLECT] (870x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. degx(RI) "to take; to gather up, glean; to tear out; to collect, pick up" Akk. ahāzu; laqātu; leqû; nasāhu; we were talking about it at Giacomo's first post(connected with λέγω lego [-d/l-] "to collect" and English "take", I think); I sense also some connection with δρέπω drepo "to pluck, to collect" etc here. Maybe I'm wrong.
About Tocharian taur (n.) ‘± dust, ashes’ (lemma from the Tocharian B Lexicon of D. Adams): TchA tor ‘id.’ and B taur reflect PTch *teur(ä) (as if) from a PIE *dhou(hx)-ro- (nt.) [: Russian durь ‘folly,’ Byelorussian dur ~ dura ‘giddiness, vertigo’], a derivative of *dheu(hx)- ‘move agitatedly’ (more s.v. täṃts-) as proposed by Lane (1938:27) and accepted by VW (508). Not with VW (1964) a borrowing from Altaic, cf. Mongol toro ‘dust.’ See also täṃts-, tweye, tute, and to.
One wonders if there is a connection of *dheu(hx)‘move agitatedly’, with Sum. de (or de-dal, or di-dal, for "ashes" - dal means "to fly").
Also, from the same Toch. Lexicon lemma "äṃts- (vt.) ‘scatter, disperse’" TchB täṃts- reflects a PTch *tän(ä)s- but extra-Tocharian cognates, if any, are unclear. VW (1962a:181, 1976: 501) suggests a connection with PIE *tens- ‘pull, tug’ [: Sanskrit taṃsayati ‘draws back and forth,’ Gothic at-þinsan ‘pull toward,’ OHG dinsan ‘pull, carry along,’ Lithuanian tę̃sti (tę̃siù) ‘continue, go along; stretch, lengthen; drag out, delay, put off,’ tąsýti (tąsaũ) ‘pull, tug; stretch, extend’ (P:1068-69; MA:187)]. However, the semantic connection does not seem very close. It is better to take täṃts- to reflect a PIE *dhu-n-s-, a nasal infixed present to the root *dheus- ‘fly about (like dust), powder, strew with dust.’ This *dhu-n-s- (subjunctive *dhwens-) appears in Sanskrit dhvaṃsati ‘decays, perishes, falls to dust,’ dhvasirá ‘dusty, sprinkled,’ OHG tunist ‘wind, storm, breath, dust,’ Old English dūst ‘dust’ (see P:268 for these and many other cognates without the infixed *-n-; MA:388). See also perhaps to, tute, taur, and tweye.
One wonders if there is a connection of *dheu(hx)‘move agitatedly’, with Sum. de (or de-dal, or di-dal, for "ashes" - dal means "to fly").
I think a connections is possible ! :) .
This *dhu-n-s- (subjunctive *dhwens-) appears in Sanskrit dhvaṃsati ‘decays, perishes, falls to dust,’ dhvasirá ‘dusty, sprinkled,’ OHG tunist ‘wind, storm, breath, dust,’ Old English dūst ‘dust’ (see P:268 for these and many other cognates without the infixed *-n-; MA:388). See also perhaps to, tute, taur, and tweye.
I was wondering if the IE root *ters (a curious root "per se") is also of some Indic (or II) origin; I mean, like *kers (for running etc) seems to be from Skt. kars from plowing etc (from *kwel/kwer - Giacomo would say *kwar/kwal); maybe there is a meaning "rub" again as for a running area (like with kastha etc and *kes), but in this case concerning the above mentioned root for moving (kwel); in Greek, as you remember, there is a word τέλσον telson, meaning, most probably, "headland, land where the plough turned, from *kwel):
I mean that, since τέλσον telson means something like "a strip of unplowed land at the end of a furrow", hence an "arid land", maybe *ters (or *tars) could be also derived from some Indic like *kars (r instead of l), but with an archaic Aeolian Greek like initial "t" instead of k (<kw), signifying thus the "land that the plough turned", the "unplowed land", the "rubbed land" (serving as borderline between the fields), hence the "arid / dry land (as the borderline at the end of the furrows of a field). Hence "dry land", "land", Latin terra etc.
(I'm imagining of a kind of mixed Indo-Grecian style dialect) :D )
About the meaning thirsty etc in this case: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%83%E0%A4%B7%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF#Sanskrit I remembered also the root of "hunger" *kenk ("to burn, to thirst" etc - maybe from *ken :D) and a Gr. word κάγκανος kankanos "dry" etc http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dka%2Fgkanos which I've compared to Sum. kiĝal [LAND] (57x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ki-ĝal2; kankal "threshing floor; uncultivated land" Akk. maškanu
I was wondering if the IE root *ters (a curious root "per se") is also of some Indic (or II) origin; I mean, like *kers (for running etc) seems to be from Skt. kars from plowing etc (from *kwel/kwer - Giacomo would say *kwar/kwal); maybe there is a meaning "rub" again as for a running area (like with kastha etc and *kes), but in this case concerning the above mentioned root for moving (kwel); in Greek, as you remember, there is a word τέλσον telson, meaning, most probably, "headland, land where the plough turned, from *kwel):
Very interesting! :) .
signifying thus the "land that the plough turned", the "unplowed land", the "rubbed land" (serving as borderline between the fields), hence the "arid / dry land (as the borderline at the end of the furrows of a field). Hence "dry land", "land", Latin terra etc.
(I'm imagining of a kind of mixed Indo-Grecian style dialect) :D )
Yeah ! :D .
I remembered also the root of "hunger" *kenk ("to burn, to thirst" etc - maybe from *ken :D) and a Gr. word κάγκανος kankanos "dry" etc http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dka%2Fgkanos which I've compared to Sum. kiĝal [LAND] (57x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ki-ĝal2; kankal "threshing floor; uncultivated land" Akk. maškanu.
I think this might be also the case of the root of Lat. terminus for "limit" or English "through" ( *kwer > *ter, but assuming an Indic style r for l, and a Aeolic t < kw):
terminus: From Proto-Indo-European *térmn̥ (“boundary”), perhaps from *terh₂- (“pass through”). Cognate of Ancient Greek τέρμα (térma, “a goal”) and τέρμων (térmōn, “a border”); perhaps cognate of Sanskrit तरति (tar-, “to overcome”), Latin trāns (“through, across, over”) and intrō (“I enter, I go into”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/terminus#Latin
through: From Middle English thrugh, thruch, thruh, metathetic variants of thurgh, thurh, from Old English þorh, þurh, þerh, þærh (“through, for, during, by, by means of, by use of, because of, in consequence of”), from Proto-Germanic *þurhw (“through”), from Proto-Indo-European suffixed zero-grade *tr̥h₂kʷe from *terh₂- (“to pass through”) + *-kʷe (“and”). Cognate with Scots throch (“through”), West Frisian troch (“through”), Dutch door (“through”), German durch (“through”), Gothic (þairh, “through”), Latin trans (“across, over, through”), Albanian tërthor (“through, around”), Welsh tra (“through”). See also thorough. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/through
Something like "I'm passing through, using the arid land which is the borderline between the cultivated fields - hectars" :)
:D ;) There is also a terh₁- root "rub, turn": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/terh%E2%82%81- giving also words like "thresh": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/%C3%BEreskan%C4%85 (btw reminding Sum. kankal "threshing floor, uncultivated land) (not to say about the roots like *per/par "through" etc (of a possible kw>p).
https://www.etymonline.com/word/*tere- https://www.etymonline.com/word/thresh Yes of course . I agree with you :) . kw>p change is also quite practical IMO ! :).
so perhaps the word for father was like *kwakwa?. I think German Dziebel suggested this or similar .
Interestingly in Indic there is , which is suggested to be from Dravidian , it is this :
''kākka 2998 *kākka ʻ senior male relative ʼ. [← Drav.: Kan. kakka ʻ uncle ʼ, Tel. kakka ʻ daddy ʼ, Mal. kākke ʻ mother's brother ʼ] Gy. eur. kako m. ʻ uncle ʼ; Paš. kākūˊ ʻ boy ʼ, kākī ʻ girl ʼ; Sh. (Lor.) kāko ʻ elder brother ʼ, kāki ʻ elder sister ʼ; K. kākh, dat. kākas m. ʻ one's own father, elder male relative ʼ, kākañ f. ʻ his wife ʼ; S. kāko m. ʻ elder brother ʼ, kākiṛo m. ʻ uvula ʼ; L. kākī f. ʻ pupil of eye ʼ; P. kākā m. ʻ elder brother, father's slave, son or grandson of a Sikh prince, little child ʼ, kākī f. ʻ little girl, pupil of eye ʼ; WPah. bhal. kāk ʻ brother ʼ, paṅ. kakkā ʻ uncle ʼ; Ku. kakā hon. pl. ʻ uncle ʼ, kākhī ʻ aunt ʼ; N. kāko ʻ father's younger brother ʼ; A. kakā ʻ grandfather ʼ, kakāi ʻ term of address for an older relative or elderly man ʼ; B. kākā ʻ father's younger brother ʼ, kākī ʻ his wife ʼ; Or. kākā, kakāī ʻ father's younger brother ʼ, kāku -- mā ʻ his wife ʼ; Mth. kakkā ʻ father's brother ʼ; H. kākā m. ʻ father's younger brother ʼ; G. kākɔ, usu. hon. pl. °kā m. ʻ father's brother ʼ, °kī f. ʻ his wife ʼ, kāku ʻ pet name for a boy ʼ, kākliyā m.pl. ʻ mother's brother ʼ; M. kākā m. ʻ father's brother, elderly cousin ʼ, °kī f. ʻ his wife ʼ'' http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.0.soas.1771630
So, the barren/flat/arid etc boundary land between the cultivated fields could be used for threshing, walking through, etc; also, I think, for loading the crop on some animals or carriages etc; there is another Latin word tellus, which I think it could be also from *kwel/kwer; the proposed IE root is exactly for bearing/carrying a burden etc:
From Proto-Indo-European *telh₂-o- (“ground”), from Proto-Indo-European *telh₂- (“to bear, carry”). This etymology is incomplete etc https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tellus
Also, I remembered Gr. τελετή telete etc (ritual, ceremony etc), maybe this ground was used also for blessing the field, the corps etc by priests etc :)
So, the barren/flat/arid etc boundary land between the cultivated fields could be used for threshing, walking through, etc; also, I think, for loading the crop on some animals or carriages etc; there is another Latin word tellus, which I think it could be also from *kwel/kwer; the proposed IE root is exactly for bearing/carrying a burden etc:
Yes I agree! :) .
Also, I remembered Gr. τελετή telete etc (ritual, ceremony etc), maybe this ground was used also for blessing the field, the corps etc by priests etc :) .
About telete etc (t<kw), I thought it was comparable with Sum. biluda (or piluda) meaning also rituals etc (p<kw); since there is also a Sum. bil "burn", maybe this arid land was used for burning the useless material after collecting the crop. :)
Some *pel root is also for "dust, powder, flour" another one for "fill, full" but also one for "flat": https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1480 I was thinking, if you remember, that Sum. kalam = "Sumer" could mean "flatland" (supposing a *kwal; kw>k in Sum. and kw>p in IE, for words like Lat. palma or Gr. παλάμη palame); now, since "kalam" in Emesal is "kana-ag", I have the impression that maybe the *ken (*kan) root for rubbing etc could be connected also to *kwal, through this dissimilation of l/n.
Returning to *ters / *tars, in Greek there is a word ταρσός tarsos from this rooyt, meaning also several flat / broad things (like the palm of hand or the flat of foot, an outstretched wing etc): http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dtarso%2Fs
ταρσός tarsos , Att. ταρρός tarros , ὁ: also with heterocl. pl. ταρσά, τά, Opp. C.3.470, Anacreont.9, APl.4.283 (Leont.), Nonn.D.1.270, al.: (τέρσομαι tersomai) :— A.frame of wicker-work, crate, flat basket, for drying cheeses on, “ταρσοὶ μὲν τυρῶν βρῖθον” Od.9.219, cf.Theoc.11.37: generally, basket, Ar.Nu.226. 2. mat of reeds, such as were built into brickwork to bind it together, “ταρσοὶ καλάμων” Hdt.1.179, SIG245 G13 (Delph., iv B.C.); “τ. καλάμου” Th.2.76. 3. mass of matted roots, Thphr.CP 3.7.2. II. of various broad flat surfaces, resembling a “ταρσός” 1.1, as, 1. τ. ποδός flat of the foot. the part between the toes and the heel, Il.11.377,388, cf. Hdt.9.37, Hp.Fract.9, Diog.Apoll.6 (but also, palm of the hand, ibid.); “οὐλὴ ταρσῷ ἀριστερῷ” PMich.Teb. 121r111i3 (i A.D.): generally, foot, Anacreont.35.4, Opp.C.3.470, AP 5.26 (Rufin.), 9.653 (Agath.). b. palm of the hand, Ruf.Onom. 81, Sor.Fract.22; v. supr.11.1a. c. ankle, Gal.UP3.6; but distd. from σφυρόν, Sor.1.84. 2. τοὺς τ. τῶν κωπέων the rows of oars on the sides of ships, Hdt.8.12; so τοὺς τ. alone, Th. 7.40: sg., IG22.1628.590, Plb.1.50.3; “ὁ δεξιὸς τ. τῆς νεώς” Id.16.3.12: sg., oar, E.IT1346. 3. τ. πτερύγων flat of the outstretched wing, AP12.144 (Mel.), cf. Babr.72.9; “ὁ τ. τῶν πτερῶν” Ael.NA2.1: abs., wing, Anacreont.9, AP9.287 (Apollonid.), etc.; in Prose, D.H.4.63: of a peacock's tail, Mosch.2.60; ταρσοί feathers, D.S.2.50. 4. τ. ὀδόντων the row of teeth in a saw, Opp.H.5.202. 5. Pan's pipe, “ταρσῷ Πὰν ὁ μελιζόμενος” Epigr.Gr.781.10 (Cnidus). 6. edge of the eyelid and its lashes, Hp.Ep.23, Poll.2.69, Gal.UP10.7.
In Halloran's Lexicon there is this word: dar-ra: cured, dried (?). (the question mark indicates no etymology, I think). probably connected to some *ter root, let's say, like tars-a / tarr-a?
"cured" for dried made me think about cure and "therapy" :D (Gr. θεραπεία therapeia) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B8%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%80%CE%B5%CE%AF%CE%B1#Ancient_Greek from θεραπεύω (therapeúō) "to wait on, attend, serve΄to obey; to flatter, placate΄to consult; to cure, heal, restore; to cultivate, till (of land)" From θερᾰ́πων (therápōn, “attendant, aide”) + -εύω (-eúō) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B8%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%80%CE%B5%CF%8D%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
Gr. θεράπων therapōn masc. (fem. θεράπνη therapne or θεράπαινα therapaina) is thought by some to be a borrowing from Hittite tarpalli- / tarpašša- / tarpan-(alli)- "royal substitute". Do you think it could be connected to Skrt. tarpaNa? http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=tarpaNa&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
Skrt. kaṅkāla, “skeleton" (I think we have discussed about it) sounds also like Sum. "kankal", and its root looks like the one for "hunger" (bearing a meaning of dryness, most probably): From Proto-Indo-European *kenkēl- (“kneecap; joint”). Cognate with English heel, Old Norse hæll, Latvian cinksla and Lithuanian kenkle. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%99%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B2#Sanskrit btw, in mod. Greek there is a word κόκκαλο(ν) kokkalo(n) "bone". https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%8C%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%BF#Greek
Germ. hanhaz, for hock / heel here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/hanhaz From Proto-Indo-European *kenk-, *kemǝk- (“joint, legbone”). Cognate with Latin coxa (“thigh”), Lithuanian kìnka (“haunch”), Sanskrit कङ्काल (kaṅkāla, “skeleton”).
If you remember, there is also Gr. σκελετός skeletos (skeleton), having also a meaning "dried" (skeletós, “dried up, withered, dried body, parched, mummy”), from σκέλλω (skéllō, “dry, dry up, make dry, parch”), from Proto-Indo-European *(s)kelh₁- (“to parch, wither”); compare Greek σκληρός "hard". https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/skeleton
btw, I don't know why I've written about an "aeolic" type for labio-velars like kw>t :/ this is Attic, Doric, Arcado-cyprian etc, the Aeolic is just kw>p. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolic_Greek
If you remember, there is also Gr. σκελετός skeletos (skeleton), having also a meaning "dried" (skeletós, “dried up, withered, dried body, parched, mummy”), from σκέλλω (skéllō, “dry, dry up, make dry, parch”), from Proto-Indo-European *(s)kelh₁- (“to parch, wither”); compare Greek σκληρός "hard".
Hi, Nirjhar, Do you remember a conversation we had about two years before (on Giacomo's first Sum. post, Daniel started it) about Sum ĝiripadra (bone, skeleton)?. I'm starting to think now that this *(s)kel root for "dryness, hardness" etc and the other similar one about body parts for moving (like a leg) etc are connected one each other, also perhaps to some **kels (like kers) root - ultimately also from *kwel. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/(s)kelh%E2%82%81- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/(s)kel-
Maybe because of a reduplication of of **kels / kers like **kels-kels-kels > skel-skel-skel > (s)kel.
Maybe this is also the case for the *(s)ker roots, perhaps from kers-kers-kers > sker-sker-sker > (s)ker. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/(s)ker-
I' m not sure about it, yet perhaps the meaning of "cut" is because these arid / dry boundary land we were talking about, served (as a kind of corridors) for "cutting" (meaning dividing) one fields from one the other; hence the meaning of "cut". Just a thought...
Hesychius gives another meaning, of ψηλαφάω pselaphao "feel about, grope"; *· ψηλαφήσαντες n; (*)· ψηλαφήσας; *· ζητεῖν (A) ψηλαφᾶν n ἐρευνᾶν (Π 747) (A); *· ζητοῦσα. s ψηλαφῶσα (Hes. op. 374) r. (v)A
which makes me think again about the tap root we were talking a couple days before; it's only that this word is a δ(ε)ιφ- de(i)ph- root; as far as I know, a d > t happens in Germanic, but here it seems to be like a t > d; :/ also a p > ph, for some reason :/, :/.
Another crazy idea I've made yesterday, Nirjhar, having in mind the notion of "through" from *ter(e), also the possible connection to "thirst" < *ters (as "passing through an arid, dry land between the fields"), concerning this time Sum. dib with the same meaning (passing through etc):
I've imagined a connection of dib "to pass, go along; to go past; to go through; to cross over etc" to Greek δίψα dipsa "thirst"; there is a word δίψιος dipsios (also in Hesychius) which can mean "dry, parched":
Also, page 100 from here :) https://e-edu.nbu.bg/pluginfile.php/753677/mod_resource/content/1/Miller%202014%20-%20Ancient%20Greek%20Dialects%20and%20Early%20Authors.pdf
The etymology of Gr. δίψα dipsa "thirst" is unknown, as far as I know :/ it could be from a digw like perhaps δέφω and διφάω; yet look here for an interesting proposal (about a possible *gu-i-gs-a- and as such cognate to IE *gues "to extinguish" etc.
http://www.academia.edu/19605853/Greek_%CE%B4%CE%AF%CF%88%CE%B1_thirst_thirstiness_ Especially the comparison with ψίσις / φθίσις = ἀπώλεια "loss" (< *gu-si-ti-) reminded me the suggestion I've made for Gr. phthisis / psisis compared to Sum. "ibiza" ;) Gr. δίψα dipsa looks, indeed, like "ibiza" with an initial d (like **dibiza :D )
δίψα dipsa could have been evolved from a kind of semi doubled TK cluster, like T-TK (TK > PS, as from a "kw-kw" form again). Sum. dib "burn" could be involved, too, maybe.
Concerning darpa, I guess that a word like d(r)pta "arrogant, wild" etc could be turned to "dipsa" in Greek (meaning something like "burning" perhaps).
Also, the "padra" in Sum. "giripadra" looks like a darpa inversed (or as "pada" - dappa ; Daniel used also this Sum. dr/d at his proposal, I think).
I' m not sure about it, yet perhaps the meaning of "cut" is because these arid / dry boundary land we were talking about, served (as a kind of corridors) for "cutting" (meaning dividing) one fields from one the other; hence the meaning of "cut". Just a thought...
Makes sense Kyriakos :) .
About Sum dib and dip or deep, δέφω depho etc, I remember another Gr. verb, διφάω diphao or διφέω dipheo "to search (well) after, to dive after"
Interesting :) .
, but here it seems to be like a t > d; :/ also a p > ph, for some reason :/, :/.
Yes :).
Perhaps if διφέω / δειφέω dipheo / deipheo is of the same case as δέφω (assumed as **degwh) then as deigwh; it looks then similar to "touch":
the possible connection to "thirst" < *ters (as "passing through an arid, dry land between the fields"), concerning this time Sum. dib with the same meaning (passing through etc):
I've imagined a connection of dib "to pass, go along; to go past; to go through; to cross over etc" to Greek δίψα dipsa "thirst"; there is a word δίψιος dipsios (also in Hesychius) which can mean "dry, parched":
Very interesting again ! :D .
Especially the comparison with ψίσις / φθίσις = ἀπώλεια "loss" (< *gu-si-ti-) reminded me the suggestion I've made for Gr. phthisis / psisis compared to Sum. "ibiza" ;) Gr. δίψα dipsa looks, indeed, like "ibiza" with an initial d (like **dibiza :D )
Splendid! :).
δίψα dipsa could have been evolved from a kind of semi doubled TK cluster, like T-TK (TK > PS, as from a "kw-kw" form again). Sum. dib "burn" could be involved, too, maybe. .
I agree with you!.
Concerning darpa, I guess that a word like d(r)pta "arrogant, wild" etc could be turned to "dipsa" in Greek (meaning something like "burning" perhaps).
I think possible :).
Also, the "padra" in Sum. "giripadra" looks like a darpa inversed (or as "pada" - dappa ; Daniel used also this Sum. dr/d at his proposal, I think).
Hi Nirjhar A kind of drp / prd could exist in the case of "darpa" and "proud", I think (not sure though): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/proud
About some similar roots (like kers etc): *per for "pass through" or like Latin pars "part" etc here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pars
Maybe *ǵʰers- (“stand erect” etc) is also connected, since in Greek χέρσος khersos means "dry, firm, hard, barrem": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%87%CE%AD%CF%81%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
A kind of drp / prd could exist in the case of "darpa" and "proud", I think (not sure though) Yes Kyriakos , I think this is a good idea! .
Maybe *ǵʰers- (“stand erect” etc) is also connected, since in Greek χέρσος khersos means "dry, firm, hard, barrem": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%87%CE%AD%CF%81%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
A similar word δίφας diphas is also a kind of serpent (from διφάω "search after" etc; yet so is also another word διψάς dipsas "venomous serpent, whose bite caused intense thirst":
One wonders (especially for diphas)about a possible connection with the root h₁ógʷʰis for "snake": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%81%C3%B3g%CA%B7%CA%B0is
"Beekes reconstructs *h₃égʷʰis because "the absence of reflexes of Brugmann's Law points to IE e-vocalism".
EIEC claims that the original form was acrostatic ablauting *h₁ógʷʰis, genitive *h₁égʷʰis"
I mean like in the case of Gr. hekaton (hundred) from *dk'mtom (according to Kloekhorst, who's in favour of Kortlandt's view (according to the glottalic theory, look on pages 9-10 of the "thorn clusters paper). Maybe then the root for snake was something like [?]deigwh? Maybe the same meaning of "passing through" or even "destruction" was used also for elephas "elephant" (d/l?). :/ (I remembered now that naga means both snake and elephant :D) the o of ophis "snake" (e/o) is a problem, yet in Gr. there is also a word ekhis for snake, too.
Maybe the same meaning of "passing through" or even "destruction" was used also for elephas "elephant" (d/l?). :/ (I remembered now that naga means both snake and elephant :D) the o of ophis "snake" (e/o) is a problem, yet in Gr. there is also a word ekhis for snake, too. .
There is a snake / dragon also called Λάδων Ladon in Greek mythology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladon_(mythology) (maybe from a **degw/dagw > lad- (l/d and gw>d?)
I wrote above: Maybe a kind of **degwh root was used for some creatures like snakes, elephants etc, then we could have (H)legwh > (H)lebh (d/l) for elephant and (d/-) Hegwh - Hegh or Hebh for snake; or even *(s)neg (d>l>n dissimilation) (< l>/negwh delabialized) - then *negw was for "naked" (we have been talking about such things before):
The root of "snake" does not exist in Greek; if we suppose it is the newest evolvement, then, assuming the same about nagara (fortification, city), maybe we could say something like **dagara meaning something like a "collector of people" like Sum. deg to "collect" (without a "d" it could be again agara like Gr. ageiro and agora for gathering (of people etc); then we could have something also with d like dagara/dabara (then something like tpar / p(t)ar for p(t)olis/puru) then -lagara/labara (like liber etc or maybe lagar for vizier etc) then nagara "city, mansion, city" etc (l/n), perhaps also something without the middle g of nagar like nawar, then naw-o for temple ing greek or law-o also people in Greek.
maybe we could say something like **dagara meaning something like a "collector of people" like Sum. deg to "collect" (without a "d" it could be again agara like Gr. ageiro and agora for gathering (of people etc); then we could have something also with d like dagara/dabara (then something like tpar / p(t)ar for p(t)olis/puru) then -lagara/labara (like liber etc or maybe lagar for vizier etc) then nagara "city, mansion, city" etc (l/n), perhaps also something without the middle g of nagar like nawar, then naw-o for temple ing greek or law-o also people in Greek.
Now wikipedia's entry about nagara states "Likely borrowed from Dravidian, compare Tamil [script needed] (nakar, “house, palace, temple, city”), Telugu [script needed] (nagaru, “palace”)." It's also Mayrhofer's view, I think.
Maybe there is a connection between Dravidian and IE here; it has also to do with a notion of movement - crawling, or about snakes etc; if, we put, instead of "deg" a root like **dregw (perhaps giving drep- δρέπω "to collect, to gather" etc), or maybe the dr̥kʰ- of δράσσομαι /δράττομαι drassomai / drattomai "grasp" (Pokorny's *dergh-) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%87%CE%BC%CE%AE#Ancient_Greek https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0348
this would look again like a serpent δράκων drakon (possibly from this same dr̥kʰ / dergh "grasp", or perhaps from the dr̥k̑ of *derk̑- "to look": https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0349
The word for ship *nāus could have been also evolved from a kind of reduplicated kind of *snegwh > snaugh > snauγ > snau-/snau-/snau- = naus-naus-naus (the root (s)neh₂- "swim" looks also as a *sneg without "g") https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/(s)neh%E2%82%82-) maybe through the notion of "water-snake" (eel); the root of Gr. ἔγχελυς enkhelus "eel" (and some other similar words), which seems also to be curiously close to "nagara": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%94%CE%B3%CF%87%CE%B5%CE%BB%CF%85%CF%82#Ancient_Greek From Proto-Indo-European *h₂engʷʰ- (“water-worm, eel”). Cognate with Latin anguilla (“eel”), Old High German angar (“mealworm, larva, grub”) (Modern German Engerling), Russian у́горь (úgorʹ), Lithuanian ungurỹs. Influenced by ἔχις (ékhis, “snake”), in a same way Latin anguilla (“eel”) was influenced by anguis (“snake”), but unfortunately no Indo-European form can be reconstructed due to similar changes in other daughter languages, commonly attributed to a taboo. Cognate with Old Prussian angurgis and Albanian ngjalë. Compare Finnish ankerias (a borrowing from Baltic). About dragon also, I remembered that the Vikings called their long ships drekar (or drakkar) "dragons": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longship Also the Norwegian word snekker "carpenter" looks like Sum. nagar "carpenter" :0 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/snekker
Another interesting word is, as I think Nirjhar, Gr. ἔδαφος, édaphos, “bottom, eg, of a ship; foundation; base of anything; ground-floor; pavement; ground, soil”; https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Edaphus traditionally held to be of the root *sed ("sit, settle" etc) https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1658 ; it could also be perhaps an archaic word similar to deiphas/diphas etc for snake, maybe contaminated by *sed; it is also close to elephas "elephant" or elaphos "deer" (d/l?); reminds also the word "depth" and the words for bottom; have in mind also the Linear B da-pu-ri-to (supposed to be the word of "labyrith"); another curiosity is the turkish word "tabur" for "fence, batallion" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%B7%D8%A7%D8%A8%D9%88%D8%B1#Ottoman_Turkish Cognate with Crimean Tatar tabur (“battalion”), Chagatai [script needed] (tapkur, “fortification”), [script needed] (tabɣur, “belt, fence”). or Pers. divar < dewar "wall" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AF%DB%8C%D9%88%D8%A7%D8%B1#Persian
Maybe there is a connection (especially in case of edaphos) to this Armenian word: From Old Armenian թափ (tʿapʿ). Pronunciation[edit] (Eastern Armenian) IPA(key): [tʰɑpʰ] թափ • (tʿapʿ) sweep; power, might; impetuosity; swing թափով ― tʿapʿov ― with all one's strength; rapidly թափ տալ ― tʿapʿ tal ― to shake Alternative form of թափք (tʿapʿkʿ) i-type, inanimate (Eastern Armenian) Old Armenian Etymology: The sense “bottom” seems to be the original one, which has developed new and unexpected meanings. Ačaṙean leaves the origin of the word open. J̌ahukyan proposes derivation from Proto-Indo-European *təpʰ-, an ablaut grade without s-mobile of *stepʰ-, a possible by-form of *stebʰ-, *step- (“post, pillar, stump; to support; to stomp on”). For this root see Pokorny, without the Armenian. Among the cognates note Sanskrit स्थापयति (sthāpayati, “to put, to place; to establish”), Lithuanian stẽpinti (“to fasten”), Russian стопа́ (stopá).
Noun[edit] թափ • (tʿapʿ)
bottom; depth, profound depth, abyss ի թափս դժոխոց ― i tʿapʿs džoxocʿ ― in the depths or hell թափ անցանել, ընդ թափ անցանել, զթափ անցանել ― tʿapʿ ancʿanel, ənd tʿapʿ ancʿanel, ztʿapʿ ancʿanel ― to penetrate, to pierce, to run through, to bore; to thread, to spit թափ անկանել, թափ մտանել ― tʿapʿ ankanel, tʿapʿ mtanel ― to run rapidly, to pass through, or traverse with impetuosity, to enter with violence or impetus թափ ― tʿapʿ ― թափ հանել, թափ հասուցանել, ընդ թափ անցուցանել թափն ընդ թափն ― tʿapʿn ənd tʿapʿn ― by piercing, with penetration (in the plural) sheath, scabbard sweep; power, might; impetuosity; swing զթափ առնուլ ― ztʿapʿ aṙnul ― to prepare for an effort, to gather one's self up թափ տալ ― tʿapʿ tal ― to hurl, to launch, to fling, to throw թափ կրից ― tʿapʿ kricʿ ― fit, outbreak, burst of passion turning, roaming, circulating թափ առնուլ, զթափ առեալ շրջել ― tʿapʿ aṙnul, ztʿapʿ aṙeal šrǰel ― to wander, to roam
Interesting word also this one: թափոր (tʿapʿor) Etymology: The origin is uncertain. Perhaps from թափ (tʿapʿ): compare especially թափառիմ (tʿapʿaṙim, “to wander, roam”) from that root. Others compare to Ottoman Turkish طابور (tabur).
Noun թափօր • (tʿapʿōr) religious procession ի թափօր ելանել ― i tʿapʿōr elanel ― to go in procession
maybe through the notion of "water-snake" (eel); the root of Gr. ἔγχελυς enkhelus "eel" (and some other similar words), which seems also to be curiously close to "nagara": .
That's an exciting idea! :) .
Also the Norwegian word snekker "carpenter" looks like Sum. nagar "carpenter" :0
:D
About Latin anguilla etc , not sure if this can be added : http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=anguri&direct=au
which is actually from anguli : http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=anguli&direct=au
Of course there angula : 1 aGgula m. ( %{ag} or %{aGg}) , a finger ; the thumb ; a finger's breadth , a measure equal to eight barley-corns , twelve an3gulas making a vitasti or span , and twenty-four a hasta or cubit ; (in astron.) a digit , or twelfth part ; N. of the sage Ca1n2akya L .
Suggested to be from anga http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=anga&direct=au ''aGga 2 n. ( %{am} Un2.) , a limb of the body ; a limb , member ; the body ; a subordinate division or department , especially of a science , as the six Veda1n3gas ; hence the number six ; N. of the chief sacred texts of the Jainas ; a limb or subdivision of Mantra or counsel (said to be five , viz. 1. %{karmaNAm@Arambho7pAyaH} , means of commencing operations ; 2. %{puruSa-dravya-sampad} , providing men and materials ; 3. %{deza-kAla-vibhAga} , distribution of place and time ; 4. %{vipatti-pratIkAra} , counter-action of disaster ; 5. %{kArya-siddhi} , successful accomplishment ; whence %{mantra} is said to be %{paJcA7Gga}) ; any subdivision , a supplement ; (in Gr.) the base of a word , but in the strong cases only Pa1n2. 1-4 , 13 seqq. ; anything inferior or secondary , anything immaterial or unessential , see %{aGga-tA} ; (in rhetoric) an illustration ; (in the drama) the whole of the subordinate characters ; an expedient ; a mental organ , the mind L. ; m. sg. or (%{As}) m. pl.N. of Bengal proper or its inhabitants ; (sg.)N. of a king of An3ga ; (mfn.) , having members or divisions L. ; contiguous L.''
it is also close to elephas "elephant" or elaphos "deer" (d/l?); reminds also the word "depth" and the words for bottom; have in mind also the Linear B da-pu-ri-to (supposed to be the word of "labyrith"); another curiosity is the turkish word "tabur" for "fence, batallion" ........ Chagatai [script needed] (tapkur, “fortification”), [script needed] (tabɣur, “belt, fence”). or Pers. divar < dewar "wall" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AF%DB%8C%D9%88%D8%A7%D8%B1#Persian. .
Yes the notion as a fence, wall etc for elephant is also suggestive , for its size :).
Maybe there is a connection (especially in case of edaphos) to this Armenian word:
The word for "finger" in Greek is δάκτυλος daktylos, yet there is a word looking similar to anga / angula (yet most probably unrelated) that is ἄγγος angos "vessel, vat" etc: Etymology = Uncertain; many words for "vessel" are mentioned by Homer but are loaned from outside Indo-European, possibly Near Eastern. ἄγγος • (ángos) n (genitive ἄγγεος or ἄγγους); third declension vessel (to hold liquids), vat, pitcher, bucket, pail, wine-bowl (for dry substances) cradle, cinerary urn, casket, coffin (of body parts) womb, stomach shell of the longhorn beetle cell of a honey-comb https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%84%CE%B3%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
Also ἀγγήῐον (angḗion) – Ionic https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CE%B3%CE%B3%CE%B5%E1%BF%96%CE%BF%CE%BD
I think, Nirjhar, that we could apply again the some method used in case of some Sum. mud words, like in mud "joy", using a reversed process of *mrt/**prt < **krt -> *trm/**trp < **trk one, comparing then this **trp with *terp (“to satisfy”) like in Gr. τέρπω "I enjoy", German dürfen “to need”, Skrt. tarpana etc; now, since we are talking about snakes etc, using it in the case of Sum. muš [SNAKE] (192x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian) wr. muš "snake" Akk. şēru > reversing muš / **mrš in a process like **mrš/**prš < **krš - [>inversion>] - *šrm/**šrp < **šrk, comparing then the **šrp with this familiar root *serp, like in Gr. ἕρπω (hérpō) "crawl" etc: From Proto-Indo-European *serp-. Cognates include Sanskrit सर्पति (sarpati, “to glide, crawl”), and Latin serpō (“I creep, crawl”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%95%CF%81%CF%80%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
btw, this *serp or let's say "srp" root seems to me as a satem style form of some k'rp root, similar to the one of "creep", ultimately from *ger "to turn, wind": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/creep maybe the similarity between the city and the snake roots are the circular shape (maybe the walls?); anyway another *ger (or *Hger) is the one for gathering, Gr. agora etc, compared already with nagara etc, etc...
I think, Nirjhar, that we could apply again the some method used in case of some Sum. mud words, like in mud "joy", using a reversed process of *mrt/**prt < **krt -> *trm/**trp < **trk one, comparing then this **trp with *terp (“to satisfy”) like in Gr. τέρπω "I enjoy", German dürfen “to need”, Skrt. tarpana etc;
Yes I agree :) .
since we are talking about snakes etc, using it in the case of Sum. muš [SNAKE] (192x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian) wr. muš "snake" Akk. şēru > reversing muš / **mrš in a process like **mrš/**prš < **krš - [>inversion>] - *šrm/**šrp < **šrk, comparing then the **šrp with this familiar root *serp, like in Gr. ἕρπω (hérpō) "crawl" etc: .
Possible :) .
maybe the similarity between the city and the snake roots are the circular shape (maybe the walls?); anyway another *ger (or *Hger) is the one for gathering, Gr. agora etc, compared already with nagara etc, etc... .
Good morning Nirjhar, Halloran has also muš2,3: n., face, appearance, aspect; diadem; a city's irrigated, cultivated territory; surface v., to glisten, shine. (in 2006 edition he adds also muš = n. glow and adj. bright which, concerning the comparison with *serp, leads to think about a possible comparison to Hebrew seraph "the burning one", "the shining one" but also having a notion for snake (which some think it has an IE origin):
I think that a root matching some possible **srp for "burning" could be the root of the word "carbon": "Borrowed from French carbone, coined by Lavoisier, from Latin carbō, carbōnem (“charcoal, coal”), from Proto-Indo-European *ker- (“to burn”), see also Old English heorþ (“hearth”), Old Norse hyrr (“fire”), Gothic (hauri, “coal”), Old High German harsta (“roasting”), Russian церен (ceren, “brazier”), Old Church Slavonic крада (krada, “hearth, fireplace”), Lithuanian kuriu (“to heat”), karstas (“hot”) and krosnis (“oven”), Sanskrit कृष्ण (kṛṣṇa, “burnt, black”) and कूडयति (kūḍayati, “singes”), Latin cremō (“I consume or destroy by fire, burn; I burn something to ashes; I cremate; I make a burnt offering”)."
darpa could fit also well, I think (d/g-k perhaps - there is also *gwher for heating)
the notion of burn and snake exist also in Gr. διψάς dipsas, as a name for a "burning" (?) snake, as we have seen (δίψα dipsa = thirst, burning).
If muš and mud words are connected (as I 'm tend to think) also darpa could be connected somehow to muš(as bright, burning and also face). Also concerning "mirror" there is a Sum. word mušalum [MIRROR] (34x: Old Akkadian, Ur III) wr. ma-ša-lum; (zabar)ma-ša-lum; (urud)ma-sal4-lum; mu-ša-lum "mirror" Akk. mušālu
darpa could fit also well, I think (d/g-k perhaps - there is also *gwher for heating)
the notion of burn and snake exist also in Gr. διψάς dipsas, as a name for a "burning" (?) snake, as we have seen (δίψα dipsa = thirst, burning).
Yes I agree on this! :).
If muš and mud words are connected (as I 'm tend to think) also darpa could be connected somehow to muš(as bright, burning and also face). Also concerning "mirror" there is a Sum. word mušalum [MIRROR] (34x: Old Akkadian, Ur III) wr. ma-ša-lum; (zabar)ma-ša-lum; (urud)ma-sal4-lum; mu-ša-lum "mirror" Akk. mušālu
I think they are modifications, through the time, of this **kwe(r)kw- etc root (or something like), always; we have discussed it at Giacomo's posts;for example in some words for "cook" etc, also the TK "thorn clusters" which, I think, follow the same pattern. Usually their meaning is about something round - circular. muš for face etc is about something circular too.
Also about this muš for "face/ appearance"; we have compared it with mukha etc, which is close to muš, as an outcome of the process; yet I'm intersted now about the other word for face etc which is pratīka: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%80%E0%A4%95#Sanskrit this could be also connected, I think; the Greek cognate is πρόσωπον prósōpon: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%83%CF%89%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BD "πρός (prós, “towards”) + ὤψ (ṓps, “eye”). The existence of Sanskrit प्रतीक (prátīka) indicates that this compound goes back to Proto-Indo-European *prétih₃kʷo-."
Skrt. prati : from Proto-Indo-European *próti, *préti https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF#Sanskrit
Greek πρός pros : From Proto-Indo-European *próti, *préti. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%82
So, we have a kind of "preposition" here (the other part of the compound word is the h₃kʷo , like for eye, sight etc), looking very much like περί peri (around, like in perimeter etc); this is ultimately from *per https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/per-
So, I think we have a a prt / prs modification again; with a labial m instead of p (as it was Whittaker's thought for some Sum. words), we have again a kind of mrs/mrt words; vocalized perhaps like mVs / mVt again; in this case muš, as something between mus and mud, maybe.
So, I think we have a a prt / prs modification again; with a labial m instead of p (as it was Whittaker's thought for some Sum. words), we have again a kind of mrs/mrt words; vocalized perhaps like mVs / mVt again; in this case muš, as something between mus and mud, maybe.
:D also "mouth" (nasalized) could be connected https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mouth also Gr. στόμα stoma for "mouth" seems like an inversed "mots" (like muš) :D
mind that the etymology of stoma is not sto-mn (as wikipedia is imlplying), but rather stom-en; from here: stoma (n.) "orifice, small opening in an animal body," 1680s, Modern Latin, from Greek stoma (genitive stomatos) "mouth; mouthpiece; talk, voice; mouth of a river; any outlet or inlet," from PIE root *stom-en-, denoting various body parts and orifices (source also of Avestan staman- "mouth" (of a dog), Hittite shtamar "mouth," Middle Breton staffn "mouth, jawbone," Cornish stefenic "palate"). Surgical sense is attested from 1937.
Whittaker's m/p was about potis (and potnia) and Sum. mutin (πόσις posis in Greek); maybe there is a connection also for the word of drinking also "posis" πόσις in Greek. :D
Also about mud = "to gine birth, bring forth, create, produce" (according to Halloran's 2006 edition), concerning the "prt" comparison (prt/mrt/mot) of the "mrt/prt/krt", I think we can compare *per "to give birth", like in Gr. πόρτις (pórtis) f (genitive πόρτῐος); third declension = (poetic) a calf, young heifer (younger than δαμάλη (damálē) says Eustathius; a young maiden" From Proto-Indo-European *pértis, from *per- (“to give birth”). Cognates include Sanskrit पृथुक (pṛthuka, “boy; the young of any animal”), Old Armenian որդի (ordi, “child”), and Latin partus (“birth; offspring”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CF%8C%CF%81%CF%84%CE%B9%CF%82
Whittaker's m/p was about potis (and potnia) and Sum. mutin (πόσις posis in Greek); maybe there is a connection also for the word of drinking also "posis" πόσις in Greek. :D
Good point! :D .
rom Proto-Indo-European *pértis, from *per- (“to give birth”). Cognates include Sanskrit पृथुक (pṛthuka, “boy; the young of any animal”), Old Armenian որդի (ordi, “child”), and Latin partus (“birth; offspring”).
Hello Nirjhar, I'm not 100% sure about this, but concerning this Sum. word (especially the Emesal forms) I have the impression that we could use a similar pattern:
ĝeštug [EAR] (269x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ĝeštug2; [ĝeš]ĝeštug; ĝeštug; ĝeštug3; muštug2; mu-uš-tug2; mu-uš-tug "reason, plan; (to be) wise; wisdom, understanding; ear" Akk. hassu; uznu; uznu; ţēmu
compared to Proto-Indo-European/bʰewdʰ- "to be awake, be aware" (as a "mot" type, like in mud words): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/b%CA%B0ewd%CA%B0- (especially some "pust / bust" types, compared perhaps to the mu-uš part, like Gr. πεῦσις peûsis - πύστις pustis "that which is learned by asking" etc: etc),https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CF%8D%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B9%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
Generally, the meaning is of Sanskrit बोध (bodha), from Proto-Indo-European *bʰowdʰ-os, Hindi बोध (bodh) m "1. insight, knowledge, synonyms: ज्ञान (gyān), 2. intelligence, 3. perception, cognition" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AC%E0%A5%8B%E0%A4%A7#Sanskrit
also this Bengali word buza "to understand": :) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A6%AC%E0%A7%8B%E0%A6%9D%E0%A6%BE#Bengali
compared to Proto-Indo-European/bʰewdʰ- "to be awake, be aware" (as a "mot" type, like in mud words): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/b%CA%B0ewd%CA%B0- (especially some "pust / bust" types, compared perhaps to the mu-uš part, like Gr. πεῦσις peûsis - πύστις pustis "that which is learned by asking" etc: etc),https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CF%8D%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B9%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
This "dissapearance" of the initial consonant (ĝ/m in Sumerian) I think is random; sometimes I think it has dissapeared from Sumerian, existing in some IE comparable word; here, if the comparison is correct, only a h₂ sound exists in the place of the full consonant.
Also, about the root for "ear", wictionary opens another possibility, a connection with the root of "perceive, see" *h₂ew- : h₂ṓws: Originally a root noun or an s-stem derived from *h₂ew- (“to see”) with a semantic shift to "to hear" after the split of Anatolian branch.
Gr. αἰσθάνομαι aisthanomai or αἴσθομαι aisthomai "I perceive, apprehend, notice; I understand; I learn" is interesting, I think, because it has a suffix -isd- reminding perhaps the -št- of Sum. ĝestug / muštug. From Proto-Indo-European *h₂ewisd-, from *h₂ew- (“to see, perceive”), from which also comes ἀΐω (aḯō). Cognates include Sanskrit आविस् (āvís, “openly, manifestly, evidently”), Latin audiō (“I hear”), and Hittite 𒌋𒀪𒄭 (u-uḫ-ḫi, “I see”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B1%E1%BC%B0%CF%83%CE%B8%CE%AC%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%B9#Ancient_Greek
For Armenian ունգն (ungn) ear; handle (of a cup, jar, door), it is stated in wiktionary : From *ուն- (*un-), from Proto-Indo-European *h₂ows-, + -կն (-kn). This was added perhaps under the influence of ակն (akn, “eye”)). The sense of “handle” was formed by association. Maybe the final ug of muštug has something to do with igi = eye?
I think is random; sometimes I think it has dissapeared from Sumerian, existing in some IE comparable word; here, if the comparison is correct, only a h₂ sound exists in the place of the full consonant.
I agree :).
Also, about the root for "ear", wictionary opens another possibility, a connection with the root of "perceive,
True :) .
I think, because it has a suffix -isd- reminding perhaps the -št- of Sum. ĝestug / muštug. From Proto-Indo-European *h₂ewisd-, from *h₂ew- (“to see, perceive”), from which also comes ἀΐω (aḯō). Cognates include Sanskrit आविस् (āvís, “openly, manifestly, evidently”), Latin audiō (“I hear”), and Hittite 𒌋𒀪𒄭 (u-uḫ-ḫi, “I see”).
Yes quite interesting! :) .
Maybe the final ug of muštug has something to do with igi = eye? .
Another interesting thing is that in Hittite "ear" is "istaman(a)"; from the same root of Greek stoma (it has to do also with a notion of "round" I think):
15.11 — PERCEIVE — The underlying meaning of Hitt. istanh- < IE *stem-H1- is ‘perceive with the senses’, as shown by its specialization in several different directions: cf. istanh- ‘taste’, Gk. στόμα ‘mouth’, etc. vs. H. istaman(a)- ‘ear’ and IGI.HI.A-as istamassuwar ‘eyesight’ (see 4.22). The nearest thing to an Anatolian terminology for the physical senses may be found in such designations as [D]Istamanassas and [D]Sakuwassas, deities of hearing and vision (P 459).
this *stem / *stom is the one I think it's a mots "muš" reversed :D
:D then the "muš" of "face, appearance" and the one of muštug are connected etymologically :D
Also I am wondering now if this supposed initial consonat (resembling the ĝ of ĝeštug) is somehow preserved in Pokorny's root 1. keu-, skeu-, lengthened grade kēu- 'to see, hear, observe, hearken, attend to'; maybe then Latin audio and cautio are connected too :D
ear: From Middle English ere, ȝhere, from Old English ēare (“ear”), from the voiced Verner alternant of Proto-Germanic *ausô (“ear”) (compare Scots ear, West Frisian ear, Dutch oor, German Ohr, Swedish öra, Danish øre), from Proto-Indo-European *h₂ṓws (compare Old Irish áu, Latin auris, Lithuanian ausìs, Russian у́хо (úxo), Albanian vesh, Ancient Greek οὖς (oûs), Old Armenian ունկն (unkn), and Persian گوش (guš)).
Also I am wondering now if this supposed initial consonat (resembling the ĝ of ĝeštug) is somehow preserved in Pokorny's root 1. keu-, skeu-, lengthened grade kēu- 'to see, hear, observe, hearken, attend to'; maybe then Latin audio and cautio are connected too :D
Another example of a "mrt/ prt" etc type IE root bearing the meaning "round, circular", but without the initial consonant, it's, as I think, the root *Hret- (“to roll”); also *Hrot-; like in Lat. rota "wheel; (pars pro toto) a car, a chariot": Cognate with Sanskrit रथ (ratha, “chariot”), Lithuanian ratas (“wheel”), Old High German rad (“wheel”) (German Rad (“wheel”)), Albanian rreth. Compare the Latin rotundus (“round, circular”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rota#Latin
Sanskrit रथ (rátha) here: From Proto-Indo-Iranian *HrátHas, from Proto-Indo-European *Hret- (“to roll”). Cognates include Latin rota, Old Irish roth, Old High German rad and Lithuanian ratas.
Something I was thinking yesterday: In Sumerian, I think, there can be some other forms of these "mrt roots" (denoting somethig circular) having the third root letter also as a labial (instead of dental); for example something like **mrp could be found in this "murub" we were talking about, meaning things again circular in shape, like "waist - middle", "thigh", "city gate" etc; not so strange, if one considers all the possible alterations of **kw/r/kw model root.
This *Hret root does not exist in Greek; instead there is this similar *dʰregʰ root (for "run" etc) we were talking about, like in τροχός trokhos "wheel", from *dʰrogʰos (also in Old Armenian դուրգն durgn, “potter's wheel”). So, perhaps there was also some "inversion" here, like **gʰredʰ *dʰregʰ- and finally from **gʰredʰ we could have Hred/t, with a silenced initially g, somehow.
A loss of the initial consonant, maybe like in Arm. որովայն (orovayn) "belly, paunch, abdomen", "womb, uterus, matrix" From Proto-Indo-European *krop-, o-grade of *krep- + -այն (-ayn). Doublet of կերպ (kerp). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D5%B8%D6%80%D5%B8%D5%BE%D5%A1%D5%B5%D5%B6#Old_Armenian
*krep, like in Latin corpus etc https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/krep-
Also Armenian կերպ (kerp) "form, figure, shape, cut, fashion, make". Borrowing from Middle Iranian; compare Middle Persian klp (kirb, “body, form”). Ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *krep-. Doublet of որովայն (orovayn). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D5%AF%D5%A5%D6%80%D5%BA#Old_Armenian
And also perhaps like for the words like ''ape'' in that case Sanskrit has Kapi . https://www.etymonline.com/word/ape http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=kapi&direct=au
*gʷólbʰ-o-s also looks like Gr. κόλπος kolpos "bossom, womb, gulf etc" (from *kwelp, like Germ. hwalfą "vault, arch" from pre-Germanic *kʷólpo-) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%8C%CE%BB%CF%80%CE%BF%CF%82 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/hwalf%C4%85
kʷólpo- > kolpos looks also like It. *korpos for "corpus"and one is almost forced to admit some common origin for all these...
Not to mention about the root of "half" from *(s)kelH- (“to cut”) through a sense ‘divided’ or from a stem *ḱol-bʰo- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/halbaz which Mayrhofer connected to Skrt. kalpa, which I thought was comparable to Sum. kilib, but also to *kwel etc. I think that both murub and kilib is of the same origin, as for example Gr. kolpos ( = womb) and morphe (= form, shape) are also ultimately of the same origin; but the secret lies in a pre-IE, or rather in an archaic linguistic continuum (I remember Daniel's words about that) including the proto IE and other languages, mainly the Sumerian. I mean I don't think anymore about borrowings etc, but about the common origin of these languages, in spite of the difference in grammar structure etc. Of course, this can be totally wrong; that's my idea about all that.
The suggestion about kapi and "ape" is very interesting, I remember that in Sumerian is ugubi (Halloran has also agab). I wonder if Gr. πίθηκος pithekos could be somehow connected (probably not): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%AF%CE%B8%CE%B7%CE%BA%CE%BF%CF%82
I don't think anymore about borrowings etc, but about the common origin of these languages, in spite of the difference in grammar structure etc. Of course, this can be totally wrong; that's my idea about all that. .
I agree with you! and I find your strategy scientific! :).
I wonder if Gr. πίθηκος pithekos could be somehow connected (probably not):
Another thought: maybe πῐ́θηκος (píthēkos), Dor. πῐ́θᾱκος (píthākos) "ape" is comparable to Sum. bizaza "frog" bizaza [FROG] (16x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. bi2-za-za; bil2-za; bi-za-za "frog; ~ figurine" Akk. muşa'irānu (like pi-tha-ka / bi-za-za?); since its arguable etymology it's about a notion of "ugliness": πῐ́θηκος (píthēkos) Dor. πῐ́θᾱκος (píthākos) "ape" Uncertain. Commonly connected with Latin foedus (“ugly”), as if from a Proto-Indo-European *bʰid-, *bʰoyd-. Beekes argues for an origin as a loan-word or perhaps Pre-Greek. Lat. foedus "filthy, loathsome, ugly" From Proto-Indo-European *bʰoyH- (“to frighten; be afraid”). Compare Old English bǣdan (“to defile”). More at bad. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bad#English
Another thought: maybe πῐ́θηκος (píthēkos), Dor. πῐ́θᾱκος (píthākos) "ape" is comparable to Sum. bizaza "frog" bizaza [FROG] (16x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. bi2-za-za; bil2-za; bi-za-za "frog; ~ figurine" Akk. muşa'irānu (like pi-tha-ka / bi-za-za?); since its arguable etymology it's about a notion of "ugliness": πῐ́θηκος (píthēkos) Dor. πῐ́θᾱκος (píthākos) "ape" .
I think that the *dʰregʰ- > **gʰredʰ > *Hret, for "weel", resembles to a TK "thorn cluster, first "inversed", let's say, like T(r)K > K(r)T, then having its K dropped, leaving only a H behind (for similar matters look at Kloekhorst's paper, especially pages 5-6).
A possible loss of an initial letter perhaps also in the case of these Sum. words: ib [ANGRY] (35x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ib2 "(to be) angry; to curse" Akk. agāgu; arāru ib [HIPS] (36x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ib2 "hips; middle" Akk. qablu.
The first one seems like a dib (drp?) without a "d" (Halloran: ib2, eb2 " to be angry; to flare up in anger; to curse, isult". The second one looks like murub (mrp?) without an m or rather without both m and r (Halloran: ib2, eb2 "middle, waist; hip; loins; thighs.")
I think that the *dʰregʰ- > **gʰredʰ > *Hret, for "weel", resembles to a TK "thorn cluster, first "inversed", let's say, like T(r)K > K(r)T, then having its K dropped, leaving only a H behind (for similar matters look at Kloekhorst's paper, especially pages 5-6).
I agree :).
The first one seems like a dib (drp?) without a "d" (Halloran: ib2, eb2 " to be angry; to flare up in anger; to curse, isult".
Yes.
The second one looks like murub (mrp?) without an m or rather without both m and r (Halloran: ib2, eb2 "middle, waist; hip; loins; thighs.")
The word mirša [SNAKE] (4x: Old Babylonian) wr. mir-ša4 "snake" Akk. šibbu "a fierce mythical snake", could be also from *mrs (mrs giving also muš "snake"); the inversed type srm > srp "serp-ent" could give also Akk. šibbu (srp > srip-> šib).
I was thinking that another verb in Greek about "burn" etc with a "pr", like perhaps in darpa, is πρήθω pretho (also πίμπρημι pimpremi - a reduplicated form with a nasal infix, like pi-m-pre-mi (both pretho and pimpremi with a long "e"):
πρήθω pretho, impf. ἔπρηθον emprethon（ἐν-): aor. ἔπρησα epresa (v. infr.): —Pass., pf. πέπρησμαι: aor. ἐπρήσθην (v. infr.): A.R. seems to use πρήσοντα, πρήσοντος as pres. part., 4.819, 1537: (for the signf. A.burn, v. πίμπρημι pimpremi; cf. also ἐμπρήθω empretho, πρηστήρ prester):—Ep. Verb (rarely if ever in Com., v. infr.), blow out, swell out by blowing, “ἔπρησεν δ᾽ ἄνεμος μέσον ἱστίον” Od.2.427; “ἐν δ᾽ ἄνεμος πρῆσεν μέσον ἱστίον” Il.1.481; “νότου πρήσαντος ἅλα” AP13.27 (Phal.); “πρῆσαι γαστέρα” LXXNu.5.22 :—Pass., ἐπρήσθη dub. in Amphis 30.10; “κοιλία πεπρησμένη” LXX Nu.5.21; “πέπρησται ἱστία” Ael.NA2.17; “λαίφεα πρησθέντα” Q.S.14.416. 2. spout, τὸ δ᾽ [αἷμα] ἀνὰ στόμα καὶ κατὰ ῥῖνας πρῆσε he spouted blood from his mouth and nostrils, Il.16.350. 3. blow into a flame, π. πυρὸς μένος, of Hephaestus, A.R.4.819. II. intr., blow, ib.1537.
Also πρηστήρ prester, may mean: A.hurricane or waterspout attended with lightning ( II. pair of bellows, III. pl., veins of the neck when swollen by anger (Hsch.) IV. a kind of serpent, whose bite is poisonous.
About Sum. mú(d) to grow (up, out), sprout; to ignite; to incite (rarely seen Auslaut /d/, /r/ or /dr/? (which is given by Foxvog) concerning its meaning as "ignite / incite", it reminded me (perhaps as "mudr") this Gr. word: μύδρος mydros "a mass of red-hot metal" (unknown etymology)
Another word is βράσσω brasso, Att. βρα^δύ-ττω bradytto, aor. A. shake violently, throw up, of the sea, 2. winnow grain, Ar.Fr.271, Pl.Sph.226b. 3. abs., = βράζω, boil, interpol. in Gp.7.15.20; dub. sens. in Hp. l.c. 4. βράττειν: πληθύνειν, βαρύνειν, Hsch.
Etymology in Starling (mrad) and Pokorny (meredh): http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=2192&root=config
A kind of **mrd root perhaps (one can think of many words, like mud [*mrd] "rabid" - for "burn, boil" - dub [**drb/**drm] for "tremble, shake", also maybe dib etc.
Concerning the meaning "throw" etc perhaps also comparable (as **mrt > **krt/**grd) to Sum. gurud [THROW] (16x: Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. gurud; gurud2 "to throw, place" Akk. nadû
Pokorny's root: merədh-, mrādh- English meaning "to boil; to jolt, shake German meaning `aufsprudeln, aufschütteln'? Grammatical comments General comments Derivatives Material Gr. βράσσω, att. βράττω (*μρᾱθ-ι̯ω), Aor. ἔβρᾰσα, ion. ἐκ-βρήσσω `siede, brause auf, worfle', βρασμός `das Sieden'; lett. mùrdêt `aufsprudeln', murdi `Sprudel', lit. mùrdau, -yti `hineinstoßend versenken'.
I made another thought: gurud looks a bit like the *gwelH- of gr. βάλλω ballo "throw" etc (as if with r instead of l and some d extension) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/g%CA%B7elH-
βάλλω ballo, (transitive) I throw, cast, hurl; (transitive) I let fall; (transitive) I strike, touch; (transitive) I put, place; (intransitive) I fall, tumble: From Proto-Indo-European *gʷl̥-ne-h₁-, nasal-infix from *gʷelH- (“to hit by throwing”). Cognates are uncertain, but compare Sanskrit उद्गूर्ण (ud-gūrṇa) and Old Irish at·baill (“dies”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B2%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%BB%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
Hello Nirjhar, As I see it, I think there are some other Sumerian words with similar notions (generally meaning "to put, to place, to carry, to lift), like for example gur, wr. gur3-ru; guru3; gur; gur17; guru6 "bearer; to lift, carry" Akk. našû; nāšû; also gaĝ, wr. gaĝx(IL2); ga-aĝ3 "to carry" Akk. našû; also the nasalized ones ĝar, wr. ĝar; ĝa2; ĝa2-ar; ĝa2ĝar; ĝarar; mar; ĝa2ĝarar "to put, place, lay down; to give in place of something, replace; to posit (math.)" Akk. šakānu (especially this ĝar -ngwar- as "mar" could unite these two IE roots *gwer and *meredh mentioned above, perhaps); there is also ĝal, wr. ĝal2; ma-al; ga2gal2 "to be (there, at hand, available); to exist; to put, place, lay down; to have" Akk. bašû; šakānu. Especially the nasalized labiovelar ones - like **nkwar / **nkwal could be the ones that could have produced the *per root words in IE (like phero, far, further etc), perhaps (this I know is a wild guess), also there could be some connection with the *bher here, but I'm not sure how; maybe the nasals work like the glottal stops and a de-glottalization - here a de-nasalization - could produce these other roots with a change to a p or bh consonant. We must search the glottal theory again, maybe.
Something else, about brasso (> *μρᾱθ-ι̯ω - *mrAth-yo) and its meaning of πληθύνειν plethynein "multiply, increase", βαρύνειν barynein "weigh down, oppress" etc, according to Hesychius: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dbra%2Fssw
I think this opens a possibility for a connection (not only to a word like Sum. gurud "to throw", but also) to the IE root of "heavy" and "weight" (*gwerH), compared already to Sum. gur "*(to be) thick, big"; for example a dental suffix seems to exist in the case of Lat. brutus: An Oscan loanword, from Proto-Indo-European *gʷréh₂us. Cognate with Ancient Greek βαρύς (barús), Persian گران (gerân) and Sanskrit गुरु (gurú). See also Latin gravis.
About "press, squeeze, weigh down" etc there is also a Gr. verb πιέζω piezo; from the same origin with Skrt. pīḍayati < pīḍ (they say it is from "pizd")
This etymology grom epi + sed seems strange to me; I was thinking that the "pid" of pidayati could look like a dib (**dip) inverted (like in Sum. dib we were talking about meaning "1. to pass,go along; 2. to go past ; 3. to go through ; 4. to cross over ; 5. to audit ; 6. to transfer); I mean, if some word like gurud etc for throwing etc, connected also with some others meaning "to put, to place, to carry, to lift" etc and also with some meaning "heavy", "weigh down", "opress" etc, so we could have pid for "squeeze" and "press" connected to an (inverted) dib/dip "to go through, to pass" etc but also "to transfer".
Meanwhile, Mayrhofer (as Giacomo has about told, about one year ago, at our conversations) says that pīḍayati and πιέζω piezo belong ultimately to this root *peys - like पिष्ट (piṣṭá) 1. crushed, ground, 2. kneaded (of the hands) 3. clasped, squeezed, rubbed together. From Proto-Indo-European *pis-tós, from *peys- (“to grind, to crush”). Cognate with Latin pistus and Middle Persian pst' (“brown flour”).
Lat. pīnsō (present infinitive pīnsere, perfect active pīnsuī or pīnsī, supine pīnsum or pistum or pīnsitum); third conjugation; I beat; I pound; I bray; I crush. From Proto-Indo-European *peys- (“to crush”). Cognate includes Ancient Greek πτισάνη (ptisánē, “barley”), πτίσσω (ptíssō, “to winnow, peel”); Proto-Slavonic пьсеница (pĭsenica, “wheat”); Sanskrit पिनष्टि (pinaṣṭi, “to grind”). Compare pīla, pīlum. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pinso#Latin
All the following are some controversial thoughts, Nirjhar. Anyway, here some remarks: 1. Gr. πτίσσω (ptíssō) "peel" is another pt- word, like pterne "heel", ptolis / polis "city" etc; as a matter of fact the *peys root could be like **(t)peys (in accordance with *tpelH (for "city"); so we could have a **tp, maybe reduplicated. 2. this *peys root looks a lot like Sum. peš "thick" etc (see also above, about Sum. gur "to be thick" and all these connections etc) 3. the meaning of *peys is knead, grind, rub etc, the same with one of the *ken roots. Additionally, some other *ken root means "young" etc; same is the meaning of another peš root "young" etc (which I thought comparable perhaps with Gr. pais "child", from paw-id-s) 4. IE *peys (as such) can have a nasal infix, like in Skrt. pinaṣṭi and Latin pīnsō - a nasal infix exists also in the root of "thick" etc we have compared to Sum. peš like in Skrt. bahu < From Proto-Indo-European *bʰn̥ǵʰús (“thick”). Cognate with Avestan (bązah) and Ancient Greek παχύς (pakhús, “thick, large”). 5. This nasal exists also in the *ken series. The conclusion is that there is a great possibility again of an archaic **kwe(n)/ **kwa(n) root or something like, perhaps k'we(n)/k'wa(n), which reduplicated and modified could produce these similar roots. So, we could have a **kwar and **kwan root (or a **kwar/l/n root), at the end, perhaps.
btw, if you remember "peš" is also used in the names of some rodents (maybe the "fat ones"); if "peš" is from a **kwens (let's say) proto-word, that could be, if nasalized, similar to ĝeš "sixty", wr. geš2 wriiten also as mu-uš (maybe pronounced as muš). I have said it before, but maybe this mu-uš < geš, if it is connected to "peš" for rodents, could explain perhaps the IE *mus for "mouse".
About the same meaning "press" etc, there is another Gr. word I can think about *ἴπτομαι iptomai, fut. ἴψομαι: aor. 1 ἰψάμην:— A.press hard, oppress, “μέγα δ᾽ ἴψαο λαὸν Ἀχαιῶν” Il.1.454, 16.237; “τάχα δ᾽ ἴψεται υἷας Ἀχαιῶν” 2.193: generally, hurt, harm, σὺ τόνδε μηρὸν ἴψω; Theoc.Adon.19, cf. Str. 8.6.7:—Act., ἴπτω , = βλάπτω, only in EM481.3; ἶψαι, ἴψας, Hsch. (Perh. related to ἰάπτω (B) or to ἶπος.)
The conclusion is that there is a great possibility again of an archaic **kwe(n)/ **kwa(n) root or something like, perhaps k'we(n)/k'wa(n), which reduplicated and modified could produce these similar roots. So, we could have a **kwar and **kwan root (or a **kwar/l/n root), at the end, perhaps.
Yup! :) .
I have said it before, but maybe this mu-uš < geš, if it is connected to "peš" for rodents, could explain perhaps the IE *mus for "mouse".
:D ! .
(as an **ip/**ib with a "press, opress, harm" meaning - maybe with a loss of an initial t of (**tip/dib - like in the Sum ib/dib).
Hi, Nirjhar, another IE - Sumerian comparison: Sum. emeš [SUMMER] (45x: Old Babylonian) wr. e2-me-eš; emeš2 "summer" Akk. ummu not very likely, but what about a comparison with the root of "summer" *sam-, *sem-, *sm̥-h₂-ó- (inversed?): From Middle English somer, sumer, from Old English sumor (“summer”), from Proto-Germanic *sumaraz (“summer”), from Proto-Indo-European *sam-, *sem-, *sm̥-h₂-ó- (“summer, year”). Cognate with Scots somer, sumer, simer (“summer”), West Frisian simmer (“summer”), Saterland Frisian Suumer (“summer”), Dutch zomer (“summer”), Low German Sommer (“summer”), German Sommer (“summer”), Danish and Norwegian Bokmål sommer (“summer”), Swedish sommar (“summer”), Norwegian Nynorsk and Icelandic sumar (“summer”), Welsh haf (“summer”), Armenian ամ (am, “year”), ամառ (amaṙ, “summer”), Sanskrit समा (samā, “a half-year, season, weather, year”), Northern Kurdish havîn (“summer”), Central Kurdish (hawîn, “summer”).
Skrt. समा (sámā) f, means "season, weather, year, half year"; I think that, if Sum. emeš is to be compared to a *sem root, that could be the *semi root for "half"; especially in Greek, hḗmisus (m), hḗmisu, (n) means “half”; maybe then emeš is "half year"?
what about a comparison with the root of "summer" .
Good proposal! .
Skrt. समा (sámā) f, means "season, weather, year, half year"; I think that, if Sum. emeš is to be compared to a *sem root, that could be the *semi root for "half"; especially in Greek, hḗmisus (m), hḗmisu, (n) means “half”; maybe then emeš is "half year"?
Another curious thing is the Armenian "amar" for "summer". https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D5%A1%D5%B4%D5%A1%D5%BC%D5%B6#Old_Armenian
If the stem for "summer" *sem- is connected generally to the stem for "half", maybe we could make a connection with this Sum. word: amar [YOUNG] (2771x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium) wr. amar "calf; young, youngster, chick; son, descendant" Akk. būru; māru
:D a similar word for half in Sumerian is sa9 [MAŠ], which is written like "maš"; according to Halloran and Foxvog maš is also a word for "half" (not for ePSD I think); maybe it's a kind of *sam/sem inversed? (not sure about that).
Maybe maš is a kind of *médʰyos/ madʰyos for "middle" and sam/sem is just an inversed form :p https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/m%C3%A9d%CA%B0yos
If these other comparisons we have made (such as mukh- for "muš" "face" or bah- / pakh- for "peš" "thick") are valid, then a madh- for "maš" seems also possible.
Maybe also Sum. aš [ONE] (191x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. aš "one" Akk. išten, is connected to *sem = one, like in Greek εἷς (heîs) etc:
Maybe also ušu [ALONE] wr. ušu "alone" Akk. ēdišš. Perhaps also ušu [THIRTY] wr. ušu3 "thirty", from *semi = half (as half of 60, maybe); not sure about all that.
Maybe also Sum. aš [ONE] (191x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. aš "one" Akk. išten, is connected to *sem = one, like in Greek εἷς (heîs) etc:
Yes ! :) .
Maybe also ušu [ALONE] wr. ušu "alone" Akk. ēdišš. Perhaps also ušu [THIRTY] wr. ušu3 "thirty", from *semi = half (as half of 60, maybe); not sure about all that.
There is a also another connected issue, I think, of the "umun" Sumerian words: for example there is umun "pit, pond", Akk. habbu "a pit?"; hammu "pond, puddle", which I thought connected to a Gr. amos/ amis / amnion "container for gathering water and other liquids"( < *sem, "pour" in Pokorny, or perhaps *sem "to be together, to gather"); also "umun" blood, which I thought it was maybe connected to "haima" for "blood", of unknwn origin, yet close to the same *sem for "pour" (Giacomo gave a root *saim), perhaps haima's **sam/sem was "contaminated" with a root of "throwing" (in case of weapons, like arrows etc, maybe there is another explanation). If Daniel was also right about blood and body connection, maybe Sum. umun "life-giving force; main body, bulk" (Akk. mummu; ummatu) was also connected not only with haima "blood", but also with soma for "body", as a kind of loan-word, perhaps, in Greek, from a *som root (?); then Sum. su "body, skin" could be of the same root with sa (half), if sa is from *sem (?); also the "umun" word instead for "en" (for lord etc) could be again from a **som-n root of *sem/som etc for "(the) one"; I was thinking, if you remember, of a comparison with a haimon word in Greek which was an aristocrate title, maybe also with a meaning of "expert" (perhaps connected to a *som (as *sa(i)m again, like in *sam/sem "one" or maybe "fit together" meaning). Not sure about all these, I think they're also just (quite) possible.
I checked it, thank you, it's about the different IE "layers" in Greek; it's quite possible, yes, I agree; the existence of a common older IE substratum in Greek and Italic is a very interesting idea. :)
The authors also allow the existence of different substrates and also for instance ,we don't find analysis of typical ''pre-Greek'' words with -assa like thalassa 'sea'.
Yes, but even for θάλαασα thalassa we don't know if it is an IE word or not; Hesychius gives a gloss δάλαγχα "dalankha" (of Macedonian origin I think) for common "thalassa" and that is one thing that makes me think that Sum š in muš "face" etc could "hid", in some cases, at least, a kind of "-nkh-" corresponding to some similar sound of a double s, -ss- (maybe initialy pronounced as "sh"), as in thalassa "sea".
tarala is from Pokorny's ter-1 "to tremble, dabble"; it reminds Gr. τᾰρᾰ́σσω (tarássō) "to disturb, agitate": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%AC%CF%83%CF%83%CF%89
δάλαγχα (or ruther δαλάγχα) is of unknown origin: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*d%3Aentry+group%3D4%3Aentry%3Ddala%2Fgxan
Hesychius has also another curious word, δάξα daxa, for "sea"; maybe from δάσσω "to divide" (like δάιω, δατέομαι etc, maybe the meaning is about a dividing element between the lands)
tarala is from Pokorny's ter-1 "to tremble, dabble"; it reminds Gr. τᾰρᾰ́σσω (tarássō) "to disturb, agitate": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%AC%CF%83%CF%83%CF%89
Yes of course .
δάλαγχα (or ruther δαλάγχα) is of unknown origin: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*d%3Aentry+group%3D4%3Aentry%3Ddala%2Fgxan
I see .
Hesychius has also another curious word, δάξα daxa, for "sea"; maybe from δάσσω "to divide" (like δάιω, δατέομαι etc, maybe the meaning is about a dividing element between the lands)
Yes that makes sense :).
*ter is the base root for *trem, *tres, *trep in Pokorny, I think..
Me too.
If dalankha is really Macedonian, there is a big chance that this initial "d" is in the reality a "dh". .
I've just thought that if *sam/sem is connected to an inverted kind of medh-s/madh-s/ (like ** mets/mats perhaps) for "middle", then Sum. umun "blood" could be just a form of Sum. mud "blood" (or the opposite).
At least the root of σῶμα (sôma) "body" etc is *tewh₂- "to swell, to crowd, to be strong" ( <*tuh₂?-mn̥ ) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/tewh%E2%82%82-
About δαλάγχα dalankha "see", I was thinking also about Sum. kalam / ka-naĝ "the Land (of Sumer)" Akk. mātu, which I was thinking it could mean something like "flat land / plain", which in IE is a root *pele, assuming though a *kwel > pel (or tel); in that case dalankha could be close to talankh- (*kwal > tal); a word with a t instead of the k of kalam /kanaĝ but with the "l" of kalam and the the final "ĝ" ("ng") of kanaĝ (a wild guessing of IE and pre-IE mixture); then it could be **t(h)alank- ; anyway *pele is suppoesd to be the origin of Gr. πέλαγος pelagos, "sea":
2,273 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 601 – 800 of 2273 Newer› Newest»That's why I think mant times that there is some archaic word like a reduplication of kwe(r)kw-e(r) for such roots.
I agree :).
I think that the alternative trokë reminds in form the Gr. τρόπος tropos "turning", "way" etc and *trep. The connection with tēkan also interesting..
Splendid 1 :D
About a meaning "turn", there is also Gr. τροχός trochos "wheel, running" etc :D
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%87%CF%8C%CF%82
From Proto-Indo-European *dʰrogʰos, from Proto-Indo-European *dʰregʰ- (whence τρέχω (trékhō, “I run”). Cognates include Old Irish droch, and Old Armenian դուրգն (durgn, “potter's wheel”).
Yup nice! :) .
There must be many "layers" inside Greek; about "food" etc, I think there is a similar word to στρέφω strepho
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%84%CF%81%CE%AD%CF%86%CF%89
This is τρέφω trepho "to thichen, to feed, to bring up, to nourish, to grow, to foster" etc, which seems belonging to the *strebʰ- root of στρέφω strepho (without the "s"):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CF%81%CE%AD%CF%86%CF%89
"According to Beekes, Pre-Greek substratum word. Within Indo-European family it's usually compared to Lithuanian drìbti (“to fall down in flakes”) and drė̃bti (“to throw a thick fluid”) but with unclear semantic connection, as well as expressions for "dregs" in Celtic, Germanic and Slavic, linking it to Proto-Indo-European *dʰrobʰ-.
I have the strong impression, that what is called Pre-Greek is actually also Indo-European . The thing is also considerable that Mycenaeans and Minoans were also very similar to each other genetically .
Concerning a Sum. word similar to endib "cook", there is also Sum. dib [BURN] wr. dib "to burn; wrath" Akk. kabābu; kimiltu. Maybe of a similar origin with the above mentioned root for "burn" (like δαίω etc).
Of course :) .
"I have the strong impression, that what is called Pre-Greek is actually also Indo-European . The thing is also considerable that Mycenaeans and Minoans were also very similar to each other genetically ."
Yes, that is also my impression too. There are obviously some non IE words in Greek, but there are many others with no clear etymology, which seem to be just more archaic.
Yup :).
Sometimes I think there are similar words also in Sumerian; like for example tab and dib for "burn", or dab "hold, seize, bind" and tab for "grasp" .
Of course ! :) .
I have the impression that Sum. dib for "burn, angry" fits rather well to Skrt. darpa, especially in some "drp", let's say words, like pradRpti "arrogance, madness" or adRpta "sober minded, non vitiated" (dRp vocalized a "dib" in Sumerian).
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=pradrpti&direct=au
http://njsaryablog.blogspot.gr/2017/04/indo-european-connections.html?commentPage=4
About darpa and Sum. dib Mayrhofer (lemma DARP) mentions a Pali word dappita "arrogant, haughty".
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/dappita "arrogant, haughty".
I have the impression that Sum. dib for "burn, angry" fits rather well to Skrt. darpa, especially in some "drp", let's say words, like pradRpti "arrogance, madness" or adRpta "sober minded, non vitiated" (dRp vocalized a "dib" in Sumerian). .
Yes I agree Kyriakos :).
About darpa and Sum. dib Mayrhofer (lemma DARP) mentions a Pali word dappita "arrogant, haughty".
Nice! :) .
Hi, Nirjhar,
I was thinking today about another Gr. verb which seems to be close with (some of) the meaning of dib, or tab, dab etc (but without the initial t or d), the following one:
ᾰ̔́πτω (háptō)" 1. to kindle, set on fire, fasten fire to 2. to fasten to, bind fast, to join to;(middle) to fasten myself to, cling to, hang on by, lay hold of, grasp, touch; (middle) to reach the mark;(middle) to engage in, take part in; (middle) to set upon, attack, assail; (middle) to touch, affect;(middle) to grasp with the senses, apprehend, perceive;(middle) to come up to, reach, gain.
It is not only a r / l missing sometimes, it is also the initial letter, for some reason; what do you think?
Possible , yes:) .
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%85%CF%80%CF%84%CF%89
There is this Pokorny's root: *tap-1 English meaning "to dip" (Germ. eintauchen).
Material: Arm. t`at`avem `tauche ein', t`ōn (*tapni-) `Feuchtigkeit, Nässe, Regen';
aksl. topiti `immergere', *to(p)nǫti `immergi', dazu u. a. nsorb. toń `Tümpel', čech. tu̇ně `Vertiefung im Flusse', russ. tónja `geschützte Bucht'.
The root for "dip" is this one: From Old High German toufen, from Proto-Germanic *daupijaną. Compare Old Saxon dōpian, Dutch dopen, Old English dīepan, Gothic (daupjan).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/daupijan%C4%85
Proto-Germanic "daupijaną" is Causative from Proto-Indo-European *dʰewb-, from which also *deupaz (“deep”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/daupijan%C4%85
while in Greek there is also βάπτω (báptō)"to dip, submerge; dye, colour; baptise"
From Proto-Indo-European *gʷabʰ-. Cognate with Icelandic kafa.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B2%CE%AC%CF%80%CF%84%CF%89
One could have the sense that all these roots are somehow connected, I think.
ToB for "*tap" here:
Proto-IE: *tAp-
Nostratic etymology: Nostratic etymology
Meaning: to drown
Armenian: thathavem `tauche ein', thōn `Feuchtigkeit, Nässe, Regen'
Slavic: *topī́tī, *tonǭtī; *tonjā
Russ. meaning: погружать(ся) в воду, тонуть
References: WP I 705
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=1785&root=config
Nostratic here:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=+429&root=config
Eurasiatic: *ṭaṗV
Meaning: touch, plaster
Borean: Borean
Indo-European: *tAp-
Altaic: *t`ăp`o(rV)
Uralic: tappa 'plaster' (Bárcsi 300)
Kartvelian: ? *txip- (also Georg. txiṗ-, txaṗ- id.)
Dravidian: *tabb-
References: МССНЯ 353. ND 547 suggests *daPV(ḲV) 'to stick, to glue' > Ural. + Mong. *dabirkaj 'resin of a coniferous tree' + TM *dapka- 'unite, attach' + Sem. *dbḳ- 'stick to, cling'; ND 2395 *ṭaṗV(-LV) 'to feel/touch with fingers, smear' (Balt. tep-, Ur., Drav. + Sem.); 2402 *ṭaṗ(V)ɣV 'dirt, mud' (Alt., Kartv. + SH). So there may be more than one root.
Dravidian also:
Proto-Dravidian : *tabb-
Meaning : to grope
Nostratic etymology: Nostratic etymology
Proto-South Dravidian: *tabb-
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fdrav%2fdravet&text_number=2026&root=config
The altaic is here:
Proto-Altaic: *t`ăp`o(rV)
Nostratic: Nostratic
Meaning: earth, dust
Russian meaning: земля, пыль
Turkic: *topra-k
Mongolian: *toɣur-
Tungus-Manchu: *tap-
Comments: Владимирцов 210. A Western isogloss. Mong. has a frequent secondary assimilative labialization (toɣur- < taɣur-). Cf. also OT (Suv.) (kir) tapča 'грязь'.
Turkish toprak:
Comments: Derived from PT *topra- 'to turn into dust, dry out'. See VEWT 489, EDT 443, 444, Лексика 99. Turk. > WMong. tobrag, Kalm. towrǝg (KW 404).
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2falt%2faltet&text_number=2313&root=config
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2falt%2fturcet&text_number=++24&root=config
A researcher here has connected Gr. topos "place etc" to this Turk. toprak.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/toprak
There is another similar Sum. word:
dib [PASS] (299x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. dib; dib2; di-ib "to pass, go along; to go past; to go through; to cross over; to audit; to transfer" Akk. bâ'u; etēqu
I was wondering weather it could be compared to some root like the one of "dip" (I mean like "passing, go along, go through, cross over" in the case of "dip" is "through the water", in other cases maybe "with my hands touching" etc (as in some other reflexes of ToB).
Maybe Sum. dib is an extended form of Sum. di = "to go".
About to dip , drown etc compare also these Indic forms :
''ḍubb 5561 *ḍubb ʻ sink ʼ. 2. Caus. *ḍōbb -- . [Metath. of MIA. buḍḍaï < *buḍyati. Cf. *ṭubb -- ]
1. Paš. ḍub -- ʻ to be drowned ʼ, Mai. ḍūb -- ; Phal. ḍup ʻ sinking ʼ; Sh. (Lor.) ḍup ʻ plunged in ʼ; K. ḍubun ʻ to dive, sink, be ruined ʼ; P. ḍubbṇā ʻ to sink ʼ; WPah. khaś. ḍubbnu ʻ to sink, prick ʼ; Ku. ḍubṇo ʻ to sink ʼ, N. ḍubnu, A. ḍubiba, B. ḍubā, Or. ḍubibā, Mth. ḍubab, H. ḍū˘bnā, G. ḍubvũ, M. ḍubṇẽ (whence ḍubakṇẽ ʻ to gambol in the water ʼ, ḍubkaḷṇẽ ʻ to dip ʼ); -- M. ḍũbṇẽ, ḍũbhṇẽ, ḍumṇẽ ʻ to gambol in the water ʼ.
2. P. ḍobṇā tr. ʻ to plunge in ʼ, Ku. ḍobṇo, N. ḍobnu; H. ḍobnā ʻ to dip, dye ʼ; M. ḍobṇẽ ʻ to immerse ʼ.
ḍumba -- see ḍōmba -- .
*ḍumbara -- ʻ Ficus glomerata ʼ see udumbára -- .
Addenda: *ḍubb -- . 1. S.kcch. ḍubṇū ʻ to sink, be drowned ʼ; WPah.kṭg. (kc.) ḍvbṇõ ʻ to drive, sink, drown ʼ, caus. ḍəbeuṇõ.''
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.1.soas.1592651
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.1.soas.1485303
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.2.soas.1970167
I was wondering weather it could be compared to some root like the one of "dip" (I mean like "passing, go along, go through, cross over" in the case of "dip" is "through the water", in other cases maybe "with my hands touching" etc (as in some other reflexes of ToB).
Yeah I think too :) .
.Maybe Sum. dib is an extended form of Sum. di = "to go". .
Possible yes :).
Perhaps Gr. topos "place etc" to this Turk. toprak are in sense of 'going into ' . Perhaps of Burying after death ?.
Perhaps these two are the same :) :
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/d%CA%B0ewb-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bottom#Etymology
and it is clearly suggested here as I find now :D :
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/b%CA%B0ud%CA%B0m%E1%B8%97n
Yeah, this is probaly a metathesis, as the one I've suggested about the mud words.
Yes :) .
About "burying", actually I think we have discussed already about that, in Greek the word is θάπτω (tháptō): From Proto-Hellenic *tʰapťō, perhaps from a Proto-Indo-European *dʰembʰ-, with cognates including Old Armenian դամբան (damban, “tomb”). Could also be a loanword.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B8%CE%AC%CF%80%CF%84%CF%89
This *dʰembʰ looks close to *dʰewb for dip and deep. So, now I guess I've made reference to almost every Gr. verb in -apťō :D
About toprak and topos, it means "place", yet one of its meaning can be "burial place", yes :) (n. 5 here):
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dto%2Fpos
About "burying", actually I think we have discussed already about that, in Greek the word is θάπτω (tháptō): From Proto-Hellenic *tʰapťō, perhaps from a Proto-Indo-European *dʰembʰ-, with cognates including Old Armenian դամբան (damban, “tomb”). Could also be a loanword.
Yeah :) .
This *dʰembʰ looks close to *dʰewb for dip and deep. So, now I guess I've made reference to almost every Gr. verb in -apťō :D
:D
About toprak and topos, it means "place", yet one of its meaning can be "burial place", yes :) (n. 5 here):
Nice ! :) .
About a verb like Sum. di = to go, there is in Greek δίεμαι diemai = "to flee, speed", from δίω dio "run away" etc, also has to do with fear:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Ddi%2Femai
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Ddi%2Fw
Maybe also toprak and dip / deep are connected because of a notion of "salty" (like of an arid desert and the salty sea) :D
One could say that a topos is a place that one is deeply attached with it :D
I meant also the "binding, attachment" meaning of topos (like in τοπήιον topeion "rope") :)
About a dib/dub equation, you have written also about a year before (about Sum. dub 'tablet' and dubsar 'scribe' ('tablet-writer'), dub 'to push away, down; to smash, abolish' (Akkadian translation), PIE *(s)tup/tub/tubh 'to hit, beat', Greek typtein 'to beat, strike', typos 'blow, impression of a seal, mould etc Hindi ṭhappā m. ʻstamp, mouldʼ, also Elamite tippi, Proto-Afro-Asiatic: *ṭibaʕ- "push", Central Chadic: *tibaʔ- 'press flat hand against smth', Low East Cushitic: *ḍib- < *ḍiHab- 'push' etc; I added a word of Hesychius διψάρα "dipsara" = δέλτος deltos (tablet for writing), apparently a loan from "dub-sar".
http://dge.cchs.csic.es/xdge/%CE%B4%CE%B9%CF%88%E1%BD%B1%CF%81%CE%B1
I mean, the "dub" could be also pronounced as "dib" (maybe from a **deub, or something).
According to Hesychius διψάρα dipsara also means διφθέρα diphthera "piece of leather" (especially as a writing material)
"The origin is uncertain. Related to διψάρα (dipsára, “writing-tablet; piece of leather”) and Mycenaean Greek (di-pte-ra)."
Since de Saussure, connected with δέφω (déphō) or δέψω (dépsō, “to soften (with the hand)”). Beekes argues that this connection and the alternation φ ~ ψ point to a Pre-Greek origin."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%CE%B9%CF%86%CE%B8%CE%AD%CF%81%CE%B1#Ancient_Greek
Latin littera (and English "letter") perhaps comes from this word:
https://www.etymonline.com/word/letter
diphthera looks a bit like "depth" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/depth
I habe an impression that many of these words we're talking about (I mean in Greek) are connected to some stratum close to Germanic.
Nirjhar, the "ps" phoneme is also present in Sanskrit, isn't it?
δέφω from here:
δέφω (déphō), alt. δέψω (dépsō)
Etymology: Unknown. Beekes suggests a Pre-Greek origin, if it is indeed related to διφθέρα (diphthéra).
δέφω (active) "to soften, knead with the hands; (in the mediopassive) (vulgar) to masturbate"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%CE%AD%CF%86%CF%89
looks like if it is connected to Proto-IE: *tAp- (of ToB) "to drown" etc, somehow; maybe some version like *dabh?
Maybe also toprak and dip / deep are connected because of a notion of "salty" (like of an arid desert and the salty sea) :D
One could say that a topos is a place that one is deeply attached with it :D
Good suggestions :D .
I meant also the "binding, attachment" meaning of topos (like in τοπήιον topeion "rope") :)
Yeah :).
I mean, the "dub" could be also pronounced as "dib" (maybe from a **deub, or something).
I agree :).
Nirjhar, the "ps" phoneme is also present in Sanskrit, isn't it?
I am not sure :/ .
looks like if it is connected to Proto-IE: *tAp- (of ToB) "to drown" etc, somehow; maybe some version like *dabh?
Can be yes :) .
Hello Nirjhar,
About Sum. di, according to Halloran's lexicon, it means: "to judge, decide; to conduct oneself; to go; to escape"; as for the meaning "to go; escape" I think that the comparison with Gr. δίω dio "to run away" fits fine.
It seems that Latin terra "earth" is connected to dryness also:
From Proto-Indo-European *ters- (“dry”). Cognates include torreō, Ancient Greek τέρσομαι (térsomai), Old Irish tír, Sanskrit तृष्यति (tṛṣyati) and Old English þurst (English thirst).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/terra#Latin
Nostratic from ToB:
urasiatic: *ṭVŕV
Meaning: earth, dust
Borean: Borean
Indo-European: *tēr-os- (?)
Altaic: *t`ōŕe (cf. also *t`ēŕu)
Kartvelian: *mṭwe[r]- (hardly Georg. txur- - just as txun-, obviously derived < tixa 'dirt, earth')
Dravidian: *tur-
Eskimo-Aleut: *tar-(r)u-
Comments: For PA *t`ēŕu 'dirt' cf. PIE *der- 'faeces'?
References: ND 2422 *ṭoχ/quryV 'dirt, be dirty', 2430 *ṭUryV 'litter, dirt, dust' (hardly different).
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=+222&root=config
About Sum. di, according to Halloran's lexicon, it means: "to judge, decide; to conduct oneself; to go; to escape"; as for the meaning "to go; escape" I think that the comparison with Gr. δίω dio "to run away" fits fine.
Surely :) .
It seems that Latin terra "earth" is connected to dryness also
Makes sense .
About Gr. δέφω depho, I remembered now a note in Kloekhorst's paper about "thorn clusters": "Could the corresponding root *degwh- be found in Gr.δέφω ‘to knead, to masturbate’ < *degwh-?"
http://www.kloekhorst.nl/KloekhorstPIEThornClusters.pdf
(page 14, note 46)
That reminded me Sum. deg [COLLECT] (870x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. degx(RI) "to take; to gather up, glean; to tear out; to collect, pick up" Akk. ahāzu; laqātu; leqû; nasāhu; we were talking about it at Giacomo's first post(connected with λέγω lego [-d/l-] "to collect" and English "take", I think); I sense also some connection with δρέπω drepo "to pluck, to collect" etc here. Maybe I'm wrong.
Very interesting ! :) .
About Tocharian taur (n.) ‘± dust, ashes’ (lemma from the Tocharian B Lexicon of D. Adams): TchA tor ‘id.’ and B taur reflect PTch *teur(ä) (as if) from a PIE *dhou(hx)-ro- (nt.) [: Russian durь ‘folly,’ Byelorussian dur ~ dura ‘giddiness, vertigo’], a derivative of *dheu(hx)- ‘move agitatedly’ (more s.v. täṃts-) as proposed by Lane (1938:27) and accepted by VW (508). Not with VW (1964) a borrowing from Altaic, cf. Mongol toro ‘dust.’ See also täṃts-, tweye, tute, and to.
http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/natlang/ie/tochB.html#taur
One wonders if there is a connection of *dheu(hx)‘move agitatedly’, with Sum. de (or de-dal, or di-dal, for "ashes" - dal means "to fly").
Also, from the same Toch. Lexicon lemma "äṃts- (vt.) ‘scatter, disperse’"
TchB täṃts- reflects a PTch *tän(ä)s- but extra-Tocharian cognates, if any, are unclear. VW (1962a:181, 1976: 501) suggests a connection with PIE *tens- ‘pull, tug’ [: Sanskrit taṃsayati ‘draws back and forth,’ Gothic at-þinsan ‘pull toward,’ OHG dinsan ‘pull, carry along,’ Lithuanian tę̃sti (tę̃siù) ‘continue, go along; stretch, lengthen; drag out, delay, put off,’ tąsýti (tąsaũ) ‘pull, tug; stretch, extend’ (P:1068-69; MA:187)]. However, the semantic connection does not seem very close. It is better to take täṃts- to reflect a PIE *dhu-n-s-, a nasal infixed present to the root *dheus- ‘fly about (like dust), powder, strew with dust.’ This *dhu-n-s- (subjunctive *dhwens-) appears in Sanskrit dhvaṃsati ‘decays, perishes, falls to dust,’ dhvasirá ‘dusty, sprinkled,’ OHG tunist ‘wind, storm, breath, dust,’ Old English dūst ‘dust’ (see P:268 for these and many other cognates without the infixed *-n-; MA:388). See also perhaps to, tute, taur, and tweye.
http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/natlang/ie/tochB.html#ta%CC%88m%CC%A3ts-
One wonders if there is a connection of *dheu(hx)‘move agitatedly’, with Sum. de (or de-dal, or di-dal, for "ashes" - dal means "to fly").
I think a connections is possible ! :) .
This *dhu-n-s- (subjunctive *dhwens-) appears in Sanskrit dhvaṃsati ‘decays, perishes, falls to dust,’ dhvasirá ‘dusty, sprinkled,’ OHG tunist ‘wind, storm, breath, dust,’ Old English dūst ‘dust’ (see P:268 for these and many other cognates without the infixed *-n-; MA:388). See also perhaps to, tute, taur, and tweye.
Very nice :).
Good morning Nirjhar,
I was wondering if the IE root *ters (a curious root "per se") is also of some Indic (or II) origin; I mean, like *kers (for running etc) seems to be from Skt. kars from plowing etc (from *kwel/kwer - Giacomo would say *kwar/kwal); maybe there is a meaning "rub" again as for a running area (like with kastha etc and *kes), but in this case concerning the above mentioned root for moving (kwel); in Greek, as you remember, there is a word τέλσον telson, meaning, most probably, "headland, land where the plough turned, from *kwel):
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dte%2Flson
I mean that, since τέλσον telson means something like "a strip of unplowed land at the end of a furrow", hence an "arid land", maybe *ters (or *tars) could be also derived from some Indic like *kars (r instead of l), but with an archaic Aeolian Greek like initial "t" instead of k (<kw), signifying thus the "land that the plough turned", the "unplowed land", the "rubbed land" (serving as borderline between the fields), hence the "arid / dry land (as the borderline at the end of the furrows of a field). Hence "dry land", "land", Latin terra etc.
(I'm imagining of a kind of mixed Indo-Grecian style dialect) :D )
About the meaning thirsty etc in this case:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%83%E0%A4%B7%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF#Sanskrit
I remembered also the root of "hunger" *kenk ("to burn, to thirst" etc - maybe from *ken :D) and a Gr. word κάγκανος kankanos "dry" etc http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dka%2Fgkanos
which I've compared to Sum. kiĝal [LAND] (57x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ki-ĝal2; kankal "threshing floor; uncultivated land" Akk. maškanu
I was wondering if the IE root *ters (a curious root "per se") is also of some Indic (or II) origin; I mean, like *kers (for running etc) seems to be from Skt. kars from plowing etc (from *kwel/kwer - Giacomo would say *kwar/kwal); maybe there is a meaning "rub" again as for a running area (like with kastha etc and *kes), but in this case concerning the above mentioned root for moving (kwel); in Greek, as you remember, there is a word τέλσον telson, meaning, most probably, "headland, land where the plough turned, from *kwel):
Very interesting! :) .
signifying thus the "land that the plough turned", the "unplowed land", the "rubbed land" (serving as borderline between the fields), hence the "arid / dry land (as the borderline at the end of the furrows of a field). Hence "dry land", "land", Latin terra etc.
(I'm imagining of a kind of mixed Indo-Grecian style dialect) :D )
Yeah ! :D .
I remembered also the root of "hunger" *kenk ("to burn, to thirst" etc - maybe from *ken :D) and a Gr. word κάγκανος kankanos "dry" etc http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dka%2Fgkanos
which I've compared to Sum. kiĝal [LAND] (57x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ki-ĝal2; kankal "threshing floor; uncultivated land" Akk. maškanu.
Yup :) .
I think this might be also the case of the root of Lat. terminus for "limit" or English "through" ( *kwer > *ter, but assuming an Indic style r for l, and a Aeolic t < kw):
terminus:
From Proto-Indo-European *térmn̥ (“boundary”), perhaps from *terh₂- (“pass through”). Cognate of Ancient Greek τέρμα (térma, “a goal”) and τέρμων (térmōn, “a border”); perhaps cognate of Sanskrit तरति (tar-, “to overcome”), Latin trāns (“through, across, over”) and intrō (“I enter, I go into”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/terminus#Latin
through:
From Middle English thrugh, thruch, thruh, metathetic variants of thurgh, thurh, from Old English þorh, þurh, þerh, þærh (“through, for, during, by, by means of, by use of, because of, in consequence of”), from Proto-Germanic *þurhw (“through”), from Proto-Indo-European suffixed zero-grade *tr̥h₂kʷe from *terh₂- (“to pass through”) + *-kʷe (“and”). Cognate with Scots throch (“through”), West Frisian troch (“through”), Dutch door (“through”), German durch (“through”), Gothic (þairh, “through”), Latin trans (“across, over, through”), Albanian tërthor (“through, around”), Welsh tra (“through”). See also thorough.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/through
Something like "I'm passing through, using the arid land which is the borderline between the cultivated fields - hectars" :)
I agree with you! :D
:D ;) There is also a terh₁- root "rub, turn":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/terh%E2%82%81-
giving also words like "thresh":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/%C3%BEreskan%C4%85
(btw reminding Sum. kankal "threshing floor, uncultivated land)
(not to say about the roots like *per/par "through" etc (of a possible kw>p).
https://www.etymonline.com/word/*tere-
https://www.etymonline.com/word/thresh
Yes of course . I agree with you :) . kw>p change is also quite practical IMO ! :).
so perhaps the word for father was like *kwakwa?. I think German Dziebel suggested this or similar .
Interestingly in Indic there is , which is suggested to be from Dravidian , it is this :
''kākka 2998 *kākka ʻ senior male relative ʼ. [← Drav.: Kan. kakka ʻ uncle ʼ, Tel. kakka ʻ daddy ʼ, Mal. kākke ʻ mother's brother ʼ]
Gy. eur. kako m. ʻ uncle ʼ; Paš. kākūˊ ʻ boy ʼ, kākī ʻ girl ʼ; Sh. (Lor.) kāko ʻ elder brother ʼ, kāki ʻ elder sister ʼ; K. kākh, dat. kākas m. ʻ one's own father, elder male relative ʼ, kākañ f. ʻ his wife ʼ; S. kāko m. ʻ elder brother ʼ, kākiṛo m. ʻ uvula ʼ; L. kākī f. ʻ pupil of eye ʼ; P. kākā m. ʻ elder brother, father's slave, son or grandson of a Sikh prince, little child ʼ, kākī f. ʻ little girl, pupil of eye ʼ; WPah. bhal. kāk ʻ brother ʼ, paṅ. kakkā ʻ uncle ʼ; Ku. kakā hon. pl. ʻ uncle ʼ, kākhī ʻ aunt ʼ; N. kāko ʻ father's younger brother ʼ; A. kakā ʻ grandfather ʼ, kakāi ʻ term of address for an older relative or elderly man ʼ; B. kākā ʻ father's younger brother ʼ, kākī ʻ his wife ʼ; Or. kākā, kakāī ʻ father's younger brother ʼ, kāku -- mā ʻ his wife ʼ; Mth. kakkā ʻ father's brother ʼ; H. kākā m. ʻ father's younger brother ʼ; G. kākɔ, usu. hon. pl. °kā m. ʻ father's brother ʼ, °kī f. ʻ his wife ʼ, kāku ʻ pet name for a boy ʼ, kākliyā m.pl. ʻ mother's brother ʼ; M. kākā m. ʻ father's brother, elderly cousin ʼ, °kī f. ʻ his wife ʼ''
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.0.soas.1771630
So, the barren/flat/arid etc boundary land between the cultivated fields could be used for threshing, walking through, etc; also, I think, for loading the crop on some animals or carriages etc; there is another Latin word tellus, which I think it could be also from *kwel/kwer; the proposed IE root is exactly for bearing/carrying a burden etc:
From Proto-Indo-European *telh₂-o- (“ground”), from Proto-Indo-European *telh₂- (“to bear, carry”). This etymology is incomplete etc
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tellus
Also, I remembered Gr. τελετή telete etc (ritual, ceremony etc), maybe this ground was used also for blessing the field, the corps etc by priests etc :)
So, the barren/flat/arid etc boundary land between the cultivated fields could be used for threshing, walking through, etc; also, I think, for loading the crop on some animals or carriages etc; there is another Latin word tellus, which I think it could be also from *kwel/kwer; the proposed IE root is exactly for bearing/carrying a burden etc:
Yes I agree! :) .
Also, I remembered Gr. τελετή telete etc (ritual, ceremony etc), maybe this ground was used also for blessing the field, the corps etc by priests etc :) .
Yes, very interesting! :).
"so perhaps the word for father was like *kwakwa?. I think German Dziebel suggested this or similar .
Interestingly in Indic there is , which is suggested to be from Dravidian , it is this :
''kākka 2998 *kākka ʻ senior male relative ʼ. [← Drav.: Kan. kakka ʻ uncle ʼ, Tel. kakka ʻ daddy ʼ, Mal. kākke ʻ mother's brother ʼ]"
Yes, I think this is good :) since there are many atta, tatta, papa, pat, abba etc word for father in msny tongues ;)
Exactly Kyriakos ! :) .
About telete etc (t<kw), I thought it was comparable with Sum. biluda (or piluda) meaning also rituals etc (p<kw); since there is also a Sum. bil "burn", maybe this arid land was used for burning the useless material after collecting the crop. :)
Yes I think its good! :) .
Some *pel root is also for "dust, powder, flour" another one for "fill, full" but also one for "flat":
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1480
I was thinking, if you remember, that Sum. kalam = "Sumer" could mean "flatland" (supposing a *kwal; kw>k in Sum. and kw>p in IE, for words like Lat. palma or Gr. παλάμη palame); now, since "kalam" in Emesal is "kana-ag", I have the impression that maybe the *ken (*kan) root for rubbing etc could be connected also to *kwal, through this dissimilation of l/n.
Returning to *ters / *tars, in Greek there is a word ταρσός tarsos from this rooyt, meaning also several flat / broad things (like the palm of hand or the flat of foot, an outstretched wing etc):
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dtarso%2Fs
ταρσός tarsos , Att. ταρρός tarros , ὁ: also with heterocl. pl. ταρσά, τά, Opp. C.3.470, Anacreont.9, APl.4.283 (Leont.), Nonn.D.1.270, al.: (τέρσομαι tersomai) :—
A.frame of wicker-work, crate, flat basket, for drying cheeses on, “ταρσοὶ μὲν τυρῶν βρῖθον” Od.9.219, cf.Theoc.11.37: generally, basket, Ar.Nu.226.
2. mat of reeds, such as were built into brickwork to bind it together, “ταρσοὶ καλάμων” Hdt.1.179, SIG245 G13 (Delph., iv B.C.); “τ. καλάμου” Th.2.76.
3. mass of matted roots, Thphr.CP 3.7.2.
II. of various broad flat surfaces, resembling a “ταρσός” 1.1, as,
1. τ. ποδός flat of the foot. the part between the toes and the heel, Il.11.377,388, cf. Hdt.9.37, Hp.Fract.9, Diog.Apoll.6 (but also, palm of the hand, ibid.); “οὐλὴ ταρσῷ ἀριστερῷ” PMich.Teb. 121r111i3 (i A.D.): generally, foot, Anacreont.35.4, Opp.C.3.470, AP 5.26 (Rufin.), 9.653 (Agath.).
b. palm of the hand, Ruf.Onom. 81, Sor.Fract.22; v. supr.11.1a.
c. ankle, Gal.UP3.6; but distd. from σφυρόν, Sor.1.84.
2. τοὺς τ. τῶν κωπέων the rows of oars on the sides of ships, Hdt.8.12; so τοὺς τ. alone, Th. 7.40: sg., IG22.1628.590, Plb.1.50.3; “ὁ δεξιὸς τ. τῆς νεώς” Id.16.3.12: sg., oar, E.IT1346.
3. τ. πτερύγων flat of the outstretched wing, AP12.144 (Mel.), cf. Babr.72.9; “ὁ τ. τῶν πτερῶν” Ael.NA2.1: abs., wing, Anacreont.9, AP9.287 (Apollonid.), etc.; in Prose, D.H.4.63: of a peacock's tail, Mosch.2.60; ταρσοί feathers, D.S.2.50.
4. τ. ὀδόντων the row of teeth in a saw, Opp.H.5.202.
5. Pan's pipe, “ταρσῷ Πὰν ὁ μελιζόμενος” Epigr.Gr.781.10 (Cnidus).
6. edge of the eyelid and its lashes, Hp.Ep.23, Poll.2.69, Gal.UP10.7.
I have the impression that maybe the *ken (*kan) root for rubbing etc could be connected also to *kwal, through this dissimilation of l/n.
Yes I agree :).
meaning also several flat / broad things (like the palm of hand or the flat of foot, an outstretched wing etc)
Very good! :).
At the end maybe the *ter and *ken roots for "small, young" etc may be ultimately connected...
Yes :) .
In Halloran's Lexicon there is this word: dar-ra: cured, dried (?). (the question mark indicates no etymology, I think).
probably connected to some *ter root, let's say, like tars-a / tarr-a?
I think its possible ! :) .
"cured" for dried made me think about cure and "therapy" :D (Gr. θεραπεία therapeia)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B8%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%80%CE%B5%CE%AF%CE%B1#Ancient_Greek
from θεραπεύω (therapeúō) "to wait on, attend, serve΄to obey; to flatter, placate΄to consult; to cure, heal, restore; to cultivate, till (of land)" From θερᾰ́πων (therápōn, “attendant, aide”) + -εύω (-eúō) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B8%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%80%CE%B5%CF%8D%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
Gr. θεράπων therapōn masc. (fem. θεράπνη therapne or θεράπαινα therapaina) is thought by some to be a borrowing from Hittite tarpalli- / tarpašša- / tarpan-(alli)- "royal substitute".
Do you think it could be connected to Skrt. tarpaNa?
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=tarpaNa&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
According to Mayrhofer (root TARP) it's a cognate of τέρπω (*terp)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/terp-
Skrt. kaṅkāla, “skeleton" (I think we have discussed about it) sounds also like Sum. "kankal", and its root looks like the one for "hunger" (bearing a meaning of dryness, most probably):
From Proto-Indo-European *kenkēl- (“kneecap; joint”). Cognate with English heel, Old Norse hæll, Latvian cinksla and Lithuanian kenkle.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%99%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B2#Sanskrit
btw, in mod. Greek there is a word κόκκαλο(ν) kokkalo(n) "bone".
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%8C%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%BF#Greek
Germ. hanhaz, for hock / heel here:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/hanhaz
From Proto-Indo-European *kenk-, *kemǝk- (“joint, legbone”). Cognate with Latin coxa (“thigh”), Lithuanian kìnka (“haunch”), Sanskrit कङ्काल (kaṅkāla, “skeleton”).
If you remember, there is also Gr. σκελετός skeletos (skeleton), having also a meaning "dried" (skeletós, “dried up, withered, dried body, parched, mummy”), from σκέλλω (skéllō, “dry, dry up, make dry, parch”), from Proto-Indo-European *(s)kelh₁- (“to parch, wither”); compare Greek σκληρός "hard".
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/skeleton
btw, I don't know why I've written about an "aeolic" type for labio-velars like kw>t :/ this is Attic, Doric, Arcado-cyprian etc, the Aeolic is just kw>p.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolic_Greek
tarpaNa is from root ''tRp 1 cl. 4. %{tR4pyati} [AV. TS. &c. ; metrically also %{-te}] cl. 5. [Subj. 2. sg. %{tRpNa4vas} Impv. %{-Nuhi} , %{-Nuta4m} RV. (see also %{a4-tRpNuvat}) ; %{-noti} Dha1tup. and g. %{kSubhnA7di}] cl. 6. [2. sg. %{tRmpa4si} Impv. %{-pa4} , %{-patu} , &c. RV. S3Br. ; cf. Pa1n2. 7-1 , 59 Va1rtt. 1 Pat. ; %{tRpati} Dha1tup. ; pf. p. A1. %{tAtRpANa4} RV. x , 95 , 16 ; P. %{tatarpa} ; 3. pl. %{tAtRpur} AV. xi , 7 , 13 ; aor. %{atRpat} (iii , 13 , 6) or %{atrApsIt} Pa1n2. 3-1 , 44 Va1rtt. ; %{atarpIt} , %{atArpsIt} Vop. ; fut. 1st %{tarpiSyati} (but cf. Pa1n2. 7-2 , 10 Siddh.) , %{tarpsy-} , %{trapsy-} ; Cond. %{atrapsyat} AitUp. iii , 3 ; fut. 2nd %{tarpitA} , %{-ptA} , %{traptA} Ka1s3. on Pa1n2. 6-1 , 59 and vii , 2 , 45] to satisfy one's self , become satiated or satisfied , be pleased with (gen. instr. , or rarely loc. e.g. %{nA7gnis@tRpyati@kASThAnAm} , `" fire is not satisfied with wood "' MBh. xiii ; %{a4tRpyan@brAhmaNA4@dha4naiH} , `" the Brahmans were pleased with wealth "' S3Br. xiii) RV. &c. ; to enjoy (with abl.) Mn. iv , 251 ; to satisfy , please Bhat2t2. i f.: cl. 1. %{tarpati} , to kindle Dha1tup.: Caus. %{tarpayati} , rarely %{-te} (impf. %{atarpayat} RV. &c. ; p. %{tarpa4yat} ib. ; aor. %{atItRpat} S3a1n3khGr2. iii , 12 BhP. ; %{a4tItRpAma} VS. ; inf. %{ta4rpayitavai4} S3Br. i , 7 , 3 , 28 A1pS3r. iv , 16 , 17) to satiate , satisfy , refresh , gladden RV. &c. ; A1. to become satiated or satisfied VS. AV. vi ; to kindle Dha1tup.: Desid. (Subj. %{ti4tRpsAt}) to wish to enjoy RV. x , 87 , 19: Caus. Desid. (Pot. %{titarpayiSet}) to wish to satiate or refresh or satisfy S3a1n3khGr2. i , 2 , 7 Gobh. i , 9 , 2: Intens. %{tarItRpyate} , %{tarItarpti} , %{-trapti} W. ; [cf. %{tRph} ; $.]''
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=tRp&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
I find a connection possible with θεραπεία :) .
(bearing a meaning of dryness, most probably):
Good point! :) .
If you remember, there is also Gr. σκελετός skeletos (skeleton), having also a meaning "dried" (skeletós, “dried up, withered, dried body, parched, mummy”), from σκέλλω (skéllō, “dry, dry up, make dry, parch”), from Proto-Indo-European *(s)kelh₁- (“to parch, wither”); compare Greek σκληρός "hard".
Yes !:).
Hi, Nirjhar,
Do you remember a conversation we had about two years before (on Giacomo's first Sum. post, Daniel started it) about Sum ĝiripadra (bone, skeleton)?. I'm starting to think now that this *(s)kel root for "dryness, hardness" etc and the other similar one about body parts for moving (like a leg) etc are connected one each other, also perhaps to some **kels (like kers) root - ultimately also from *kwel.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/(s)kelh%E2%82%81-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/(s)kel-
Maybe because of a reduplication of of **kels / kers like **kels-kels-kels > skel-skel-skel > (s)kel.
Maybe this is also the case for the *(s)ker roots, perhaps from kers-kers-kers > sker-sker-sker > (s)ker.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/(s)ker-
I' m not sure about it, yet perhaps the meaning of "cut" is because these arid / dry boundary land we were talking about, served (as a kind of corridors) for "cutting" (meaning dividing) one fields from one the other; hence the meaning of "cut". Just a thought...
About Sum dib and dip or deep, δέφω depho etc, I remember another Gr. verb, διφάω diphao or διφέω dipheo "to search (well) after, to dive after"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Ddifa%2Fw
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0073%3Aentry%3Ddifa%2Fw
Hesychius gives another meaning, of ψηλαφάω pselaphao "feel about, grope";
*· ψηλαφήσαντες n; (*)· ψηλαφήσας; *· ζητεῖν (A) ψηλαφᾶν n ἐρευνᾶν (Π 747) (A); *· ζητοῦσα. s ψηλαφῶσα (Hes. op. 374) r. (v)A
which makes me think again about the tap root we were talking a couple days before; it's only that this word is a δ(ε)ιφ- de(i)ph- root; as far as I know, a d > t happens in Germanic, but here it seems to be like a t > d; :/ also a p > ph, for some reason :/, :/.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=+429&root=config
Perhaps if διφέω / δειφέω dipheo / deipheo is of the same case as δέφω (assumed as **degwh) then as deigwh; it looks then similar to "touch":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/touch
Another crazy idea I've made yesterday, Nirjhar, having in mind the notion of "through" from *ter(e), also the possible connection to "thirst" < *ters (as "passing through an arid, dry land between the fields"), concerning this time Sum. dib with the same meaning (passing through etc):
I've imagined a connection of dib "to pass, go along; to go past; to go through; to cross over etc" to Greek δίψα dipsa "thirst"; there is a word δίψιος dipsios (also in Hesychius) which can mean "dry, parched":
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Ddi%2Fyios
δίψ-ιος , α, ον, also ος, ον A.Ch. 185, Nic.Th.147: (δίψα):—
A.thirsty, and of things, dry, parched, “δ. κόνις” A.Ag.495, S.Ant.246; “χθών” E.Alc.560; “πῦρ θεοῦ” Id.Rh.417; ἐξ ὀμμάτων δὲ δίψιοι πίπτουσι σταγόνες, perh. tears checked in their flow, A.Ch.185; δίψιον, expld. by βεβλαμμένον, S.Fr.296, by βλαπτικόν, Hsch.; cf. δῖψαι.
II. causing thirst, “ὕδατα” Hermipp. ap. J.Ap.1.22; “δ. σήψ” Nic.Th.147; cf. “διψάς” 11.
Another word πολυδίψιος polydipsios is an epithet of the city of Argos (as πολυδίψιον Ἄργος polydipsion Argos).
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0073%3Aalphabetic+letter%3Dp%3Aentry+group%3D14%3Aentry%3Dpoludi%2Fyios
Also, page 100 from here :)
https://e-edu.nbu.bg/pluginfile.php/753677/mod_resource/content/1/Miller%202014%20-%20Ancient%20Greek%20Dialects%20and%20Early%20Authors.pdf
The etymology of Gr. δίψα dipsa "thirst" is unknown, as far as I know :/ it could be from a digw like perhaps δέφω and διφάω; yet look here for an interesting proposal (about a possible *gu-i-gs-a- and as such cognate to IE *gues "to extinguish" etc.
http://www.academia.edu/19605853/Greek_%CE%B4%CE%AF%CF%88%CE%B1_thirst_thirstiness_
Especially the comparison with ψίσις / φθίσις = ἀπώλεια "loss" (< *gu-si-ti-) reminded me the suggestion I've made for Gr. phthisis / psisis compared to Sum. "ibiza" ;)
Gr. δίψα dipsa looks, indeed, like "ibiza" with an initial d (like **dibiza :D )
δίψα dipsa could have been evolved from a kind of semi doubled TK cluster, like T-TK (TK > PS, as from a "kw-kw" form again).
Sum. dib "burn" could be involved, too, maybe.
Concerning darpa, I guess that a word like d(r)pta "arrogant, wild" etc could be turned to "dipsa" in Greek (meaning something like "burning" perhaps).
Also, the "padra" in Sum. "giripadra" looks like a darpa inversed (or as "pada" - dappa ; Daniel used also this Sum. dr/d at his proposal, I think).
I' m not sure about it, yet perhaps the meaning of "cut" is because these arid / dry boundary land we were talking about, served (as a kind of corridors) for "cutting" (meaning dividing) one fields from one the other; hence the meaning of "cut". Just a thought...
Makes sense Kyriakos :) .
About Sum dib and dip or deep, δέφω depho etc, I remember another Gr. verb, διφάω diphao or διφέω dipheo "to search (well) after, to dive after"
Interesting :) .
, but here it seems to be like a t > d; :/ also a p > ph, for some reason :/, :/.
Yes :).
Perhaps if διφέω / δειφέω dipheo / deipheo is of the same case as δέφω (assumed as **degwh) then as deigwh; it looks then similar to "touch":
Yes nice :) .
the possible connection to "thirst" < *ters (as "passing through an arid, dry land between the fields"), concerning this time Sum. dib with the same meaning (passing through etc):
I've imagined a connection of dib "to pass, go along; to go past; to go through; to cross over etc" to Greek δίψα dipsa "thirst"; there is a word δίψιος dipsios (also in Hesychius) which can mean "dry, parched":
Very interesting again ! :D .
Especially the comparison with ψίσις / φθίσις = ἀπώλεια "loss" (< *gu-si-ti-) reminded me the suggestion I've made for Gr. phthisis / psisis compared to Sum. "ibiza" ;)
Gr. δίψα dipsa looks, indeed, like "ibiza" with an initial d (like **dibiza :D )
Splendid! :).
δίψα dipsa could have been evolved from a kind of semi doubled TK cluster, like T-TK (TK > PS, as from a "kw-kw" form again).
Sum. dib "burn" could be involved, too, maybe. .
I agree with you!.
Concerning darpa, I guess that a word like d(r)pta "arrogant, wild" etc could be turned to "dipsa" in Greek (meaning something like "burning" perhaps).
I think possible :).
Also, the "padra" in Sum. "giripadra" looks like a darpa inversed (or as "pada" - dappa ; Daniel used also this Sum. dr/d at his proposal, I think).
Yes ! :).
Hi Nirjhar
A kind of drp / prd could exist in the case of "darpa" and "proud", I think (not sure though):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/proud
About some similar roots (like kers etc):
*per for "pass through" or like Latin pars "part" etc here:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pars
Maybe *ǵʰers- (“stand erect” etc) is also connected, since in Greek χέρσος khersos means "dry, firm, hard, barrem":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%87%CE%AD%CF%81%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
A kind of drp / prd could exist in the case of "darpa" and "proud", I think (not sure though)
Yes Kyriakos , I think this is a good idea! .
Maybe *ǵʰers- (“stand erect” etc) is also connected, since in Greek χέρσος khersos means "dry, firm, hard, barrem":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%87%CE%AD%CF%81%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
:D .
A similar word δίφας diphas is also a kind of serpent (from διφάω "search after" etc; yet so is also another word διψάς dipsas "venomous serpent, whose bite caused intense thirst":
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*d%3Aentry+group%3D89%3Aentry%3Ddi%2Ffas
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Ddiya%2Fs
One wonders (especially for diphas)about a possible connection with the root h₁ógʷʰis for "snake":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%81%C3%B3g%CA%B7%CA%B0is
"Beekes reconstructs *h₃égʷʰis because "the absence of reflexes of Brugmann's Law points to IE e-vocalism".
EIEC claims that the original form was acrostatic ablauting *h₁ógʷʰis, genitive *h₁égʷʰis"
I mean like in the case of Gr. hekaton (hundred) from *dk'mtom (according to Kloekhorst, who's in favour of Kortlandt's view (according to the glottalic theory, look on pages 9-10 of the "thorn clusters paper). Maybe then the root for snake was something like [?]deigwh?
Maybe the same meaning of "passing through" or even "destruction" was used also for elephas "elephant" (d/l?). :/
(I remembered now that naga means both snake and elephant :D)
the o of ophis "snake" (e/o) is a problem, yet in Gr. there is also a word ekhis for snake, too.
Maybe the same meaning of "passing through" or even "destruction" was used also for elephas "elephant" (d/l?). :/
(I remembered now that naga means both snake and elephant :D)
the o of ophis "snake" (e/o) is a problem, yet in Gr. there is also a word ekhis for snake, too. .
Once again very interesting! :D .
Skrt. ibha also looks like "diphas" without d :D
Yup! :) .
then *negw was for "naked" (we have been talking about such things before):
Yes, very interesting! :) .
But if elephant in Greek is an IE < Nostratic inheritance, then maybe Greek was spoken near a habitat including elephants :0 :D .
Yes it may indicate that! :).
There is a snake / dragon also called Λάδων Ladon in Greek mythology:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladon_(mythology)
(maybe from a **degw/dagw > lad- (l/d and gw>d?)
Yes, very possible! :) .
I wrote above: Maybe a kind of **degwh root was used for some creatures like snakes, elephants etc, then we could have (H)legwh > (H)lebh (d/l) for elephant and (d/-) Hegwh - Hegh or Hebh for snake; or even *(s)neg (d>l>n dissimilation) (< l>/negwh delabialized) - then *negw was for "naked" (we have been talking about such things before):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%97#Sanskrit
The root of "snake" does not exist in Greek; if we suppose it is the newest evolvement, then, assuming the same about nagara (fortification, city), maybe we could say something like **dagara meaning something like a "collector of people" like Sum. deg to "collect" (without a "d" it could be again agara like Gr. ageiro and agora for gathering (of people etc); then we could have something also with d like dagara/dabara (then something like tpar / p(t)ar for p(t)olis/puru) then -lagara/labara (like liber etc or maybe lagar for vizier etc) then nagara "city, mansion, city" etc (l/n), perhaps also something without the middle g of nagar like nawar, then naw-o for temple ing greek or law-o also people in Greek.
maybe we could say something like **dagara meaning something like a "collector of people" like Sum. deg to "collect" (without a "d" it could be again agara like Gr. ageiro and agora for gathering (of people etc); then we could have something also with d like dagara/dabara (then something like tpar / p(t)ar for p(t)olis/puru) then -lagara/labara (like liber etc or maybe lagar for vizier etc) then nagara "city, mansion, city" etc (l/n), perhaps also something without the middle g of nagar like nawar, then naw-o for temple ing greek or law-o also people in Greek.
Beautiful Kyriakos! :) .
Now wikipedia's entry about nagara states "Likely borrowed from Dravidian, compare Tamil [script needed] (nakar, “house, palace, temple, city”), Telugu [script needed] (nagaru, “palace”)." It's also Mayrhofer's view, I think.
Maybe there is a connection between Dravidian and IE here; it has also to do with a notion of movement - crawling, or about snakes etc; if, we put, instead of "deg" a root like **dregw (perhaps giving drep- δρέπω "to collect, to gather" etc), or maybe the dr̥kʰ- of δράσσομαι /δράττομαι drassomai / drattomai "grasp" (Pokorny's *dergh-)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%87%CE%BC%CE%AE#Ancient_Greek
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0348
this would look again like a serpent δράκων drakon (possibly from this same dr̥kʰ / dergh "grasp", or perhaps from the dr̥k̑ of *derk̑- "to look":
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0349
this would look again like a serpent δράκων drakon (possibly from this same dr̥kʰ / dergh "grasp", or perhaps from the dr̥k̑ of *derk̑- "to look":
I agree :) .
The word for ship *nāus could have been also evolved from a kind of reduplicated kind of *snegwh > snaugh > snauγ > snau-/snau-/snau- = naus-naus-naus (the root (s)neh₂- "swim" looks also as a *sneg without "g") https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/(s)neh%E2%82%82-)
maybe through the notion of "water-snake" (eel); the root of Gr. ἔγχελυς enkhelus "eel" (and some other similar words), which seems also to be curiously close to "nagara":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%94%CE%B3%CF%87%CE%B5%CE%BB%CF%85%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
From Proto-Indo-European *h₂engʷʰ- (“water-worm, eel”). Cognate with Latin anguilla (“eel”), Old High German angar (“mealworm, larva, grub”) (Modern German Engerling), Russian у́горь (úgorʹ), Lithuanian ungurỹs.
Influenced by ἔχις (ékhis, “snake”), in a same way Latin anguilla (“eel”) was influenced by anguis (“snake”), but unfortunately no Indo-European form can be reconstructed due to similar changes in other daughter languages, commonly attributed to a taboo. Cognate with Old Prussian angurgis and Albanian ngjalë. Compare Finnish ankerias (a borrowing from Baltic).
About dragon also, I remembered that the Vikings called their long ships drekar (or drakkar) "dragons": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longship
Also the Norwegian word snekker "carpenter" looks like Sum. nagar "carpenter" :0
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/snekker
Another interesting word is, as I think Nirjhar, Gr. ἔδαφος, édaphos, “bottom, eg, of a ship; foundation; base of anything; ground-floor; pavement; ground, soil”;
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Edaphus
traditionally held to be of the root *sed ("sit, settle" etc) https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1658 ; it could also be perhaps an archaic word similar to deiphas/diphas etc for snake, maybe contaminated by *sed; it is also close to elephas "elephant" or elaphos "deer" (d/l?); reminds also the word "depth" and the words for bottom; have in mind also the Linear B da-pu-ri-to (supposed to be the word of "labyrith"); another curiosity is the turkish word "tabur" for "fence, batallion"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%B7%D8%A7%D8%A8%D9%88%D8%B1#Ottoman_Turkish
Cognate with Crimean Tatar tabur (“battalion”), Chagatai [script needed] (tapkur, “fortification”), [script needed] (tabɣur, “belt, fence”).
or Pers. divar < dewar "wall"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AF%DB%8C%D9%88%D8%A7%D8%B1#Persian
Maybe there is a connection (especially in case of edaphos) to this Armenian word:
From Old Armenian թափ (tʿapʿ).
Pronunciation[edit]
(Eastern Armenian) IPA(key): [tʰɑpʰ]
թափ • (tʿapʿ)
sweep; power, might; impetuosity; swing
թափով ― tʿapʿov ― with all one's strength; rapidly
թափ տալ ― tʿapʿ tal ― to shake
Alternative form of թափք (tʿapʿkʿ)
i-type, inanimate (Eastern Armenian)
Old Armenian
Etymology:
The sense “bottom” seems to be the original one, which has developed new and unexpected meanings. Ačaṙean leaves the origin of the word open. J̌ahukyan proposes derivation from Proto-Indo-European *təpʰ-, an ablaut grade without s-mobile of *stepʰ-, a possible by-form of *stebʰ-, *step- (“post, pillar, stump; to support; to stomp on”). For this root see Pokorny, without the Armenian. Among the cognates note Sanskrit स्थापयति (sthāpayati, “to put, to place; to establish”), Lithuanian stẽpinti (“to fasten”), Russian стопа́ (stopá).
Noun[edit]
թափ • (tʿapʿ)
bottom; depth, profound depth, abyss
ի թափս դժոխոց ― i tʿapʿs džoxocʿ ― in the depths or hell
թափ անցանել, ընդ թափ անցանել, զթափ անցանել ― tʿapʿ ancʿanel, ənd tʿapʿ ancʿanel, ztʿapʿ ancʿanel ― to penetrate, to pierce, to run through, to bore; to thread, to spit
թափ անկանել, թափ մտանել ― tʿapʿ ankanel, tʿapʿ mtanel ― to run rapidly, to pass through, or traverse with impetuosity, to enter with violence or impetus
թափ ― tʿapʿ ― թափ հանել, թափ հասուցանել, ընդ թափ անցուցանել
թափն ընդ թափն ― tʿapʿn ənd tʿapʿn ― by piercing, with penetration
(in the plural) sheath, scabbard
sweep; power, might; impetuosity; swing
զթափ առնուլ ― ztʿapʿ aṙnul ― to prepare for an effort, to gather one's self up
թափ տալ ― tʿapʿ tal ― to hurl, to launch, to fling, to throw
թափ կրից ― tʿapʿ kricʿ ― fit, outbreak, burst of passion
turning, roaming, circulating
թափ առնուլ, զթափ առեալ շրջել ― tʿapʿ aṙnul, ztʿapʿ aṙeal šrǰel ― to wander, to roam
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D5%A9%D5%A1%D6%83#Old_Armenian
Interesting word also this one:
թափոր (tʿapʿor)
Etymology: The origin is uncertain. Perhaps from թափ (tʿapʿ): compare especially թափառիմ (tʿapʿaṙim, “to wander, roam”) from that root. Others compare to Ottoman Turkish طابور (tabur).
Noun
թափօր • (tʿapʿōr)
religious procession
ի թափօր ելանել ― i tʿapʿōr elanel ― to go in procession
maybe through the notion of "water-snake" (eel); the root of Gr. ἔγχελυς enkhelus "eel" (and some other similar words), which seems also to be curiously close to "nagara": .
That's an exciting idea! :) .
Also the Norwegian word snekker "carpenter" looks like Sum. nagar "carpenter" :0
:D
About Latin anguilla etc , not sure if this can be added :
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=anguri&direct=au
which is actually from anguli :
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=anguli&direct=au
Of course there angula :
1 aGgula m. ( %{ag} or %{aGg}) , a finger ; the thumb ; a finger's breadth , a measure equal to eight barley-corns , twelve an3gulas making a vitasti or span , and twenty-four a hasta or cubit ; (in astron.) a digit , or twelfth part ; N. of the sage Ca1n2akya L .
Suggested to be from anga http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=anga&direct=au
''aGga 2 n. ( %{am} Un2.) , a limb of the body ; a limb , member ; the body ; a subordinate division or department , especially of a science , as the six Veda1n3gas ; hence the number six ; N. of the chief sacred texts of the Jainas ; a limb or subdivision of Mantra or counsel (said to be five , viz. 1. %{karmaNAm@Arambho7pAyaH} , means of commencing operations ; 2. %{puruSa-dravya-sampad} , providing men and materials ; 3. %{deza-kAla-vibhAga} , distribution of place and time ; 4. %{vipatti-pratIkAra} , counter-action of disaster ; 5. %{kArya-siddhi} , successful accomplishment ; whence %{mantra} is said to be %{paJcA7Gga}) ; any subdivision , a supplement ; (in Gr.) the base of a word , but in the strong cases only Pa1n2. 1-4 , 13 seqq. ; anything inferior or secondary , anything immaterial or unessential , see %{aGga-tA} ; (in rhetoric) an illustration ; (in the drama) the whole of the subordinate characters ; an expedient ; a mental organ , the mind L. ; m. sg. or (%{As}) m. pl.N. of Bengal proper or its inhabitants ; (sg.)N. of a king of An3ga ; (mfn.) , having members or divisions L. ; contiguous L.''
it is also close to elephas "elephant" or elaphos "deer" (d/l?); reminds also the word "depth" and the words for bottom; have in mind also the Linear B da-pu-ri-to (supposed to be the word of "labyrith"); another curiosity is the turkish word "tabur" for "fence, batallion"
........ Chagatai [script needed] (tapkur, “fortification”), [script needed] (tabɣur, “belt, fence”).
or Pers. divar < dewar "wall"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AF%DB%8C%D9%88%D8%A7%D8%B1#Persian. .
Yes the notion as a fence, wall etc for elephant is also suggestive , for its size :).
Maybe there is a connection (especially in case of edaphos) to this Armenian word:
Yes interesting :) .
The word for "finger" in Greek is δάκτυλος daktylos, yet there is a word looking similar to anga / angula (yet most probably unrelated) that is ἄγγος angos "vessel, vat" etc:
Etymology = Uncertain; many words for "vessel" are mentioned by Homer but are loaned from outside Indo-European, possibly Near Eastern.
ἄγγος • (ángos) n (genitive ἄγγεος or ἄγγους); third declension
vessel (to hold liquids), vat, pitcher, bucket, pail, wine-bowl
(for dry substances) cradle, cinerary urn, casket, coffin
(of body parts) womb, stomach
shell of the longhorn beetle
cell of a honey-comb
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%84%CE%B3%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
Also ἀγγήῐον (angḗion) – Ionic
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CE%B3%CE%B3%CE%B5%E1%BF%96%CE%BF%CE%BD
I think, Nirjhar, that we could apply again the some method used in case of some Sum. mud words, like in mud "joy", using a reversed process of *mrt/**prt < **krt -> *trm/**trp < **trk one, comparing then this **trp with *terp (“to satisfy”) like in Gr. τέρπω "I enjoy", German dürfen “to need”, Skrt. tarpana etc;
now, since we are talking about snakes etc, using it in the case of Sum. muš [SNAKE] (192x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian) wr. muš "snake" Akk. şēru > reversing muš / **mrš in a process like **mrš/**prš < **krš - [>inversion>] - *šrm/**šrp < **šrk, comparing then the **šrp with this familiar root *serp, like in Gr. ἕρπω (hérpō) "crawl" etc:
From Proto-Indo-European *serp-. Cognates include Sanskrit सर्पति (sarpati, “to glide, crawl”), and Latin serpō (“I creep, crawl”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%95%CF%81%CF%80%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
btw, this *serp or let's say "srp" root seems to me as a satem style form of some k'rp root, similar to the one of "creep", ultimately from *ger "to turn, wind":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/creep
maybe the similarity between the city and the snake roots are the circular shape (maybe the walls?); anyway another *ger (or *Hger) is the one for gathering, Gr. agora etc, compared already with nagara etc, etc...
I think, Nirjhar, that we could apply again the some method used in case of some Sum. mud words, like in mud "joy", using a reversed process of *mrt/**prt < **krt -> *trm/**trp < **trk one, comparing then this **trp with *terp (“to satisfy”) like in Gr. τέρπω "I enjoy", German dürfen “to need”, Skrt. tarpana etc;
Yes I agree :) .
since we are talking about snakes etc, using it in the case of Sum. muš [SNAKE] (192x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian) wr. muš "snake" Akk. şēru > reversing muš / **mrš in a process like **mrš/**prš < **krš - [>inversion>] - *šrm/**šrp < **šrk, comparing then the **šrp with this familiar root *serp, like in Gr. ἕρπω (hérpō) "crawl" etc: .
Possible :) .
maybe the similarity between the city and the snake roots are the circular shape (maybe the walls?); anyway another *ger (or *Hger) is the one for gathering, Gr. agora etc, compared already with nagara etc, etc... .
Yup ! :D .
Good morning Nirjhar,
Halloran has also muš2,3: n., face, appearance, aspect; diadem; a city's irrigated, cultivated territory; surface
v., to glisten, shine.
(in 2006 edition he adds also muš = n. glow and adj. bright
which, concerning the comparison with *serp, leads to think about a possible comparison to Hebrew seraph "the burning one", "the shining one" but also having a notion for snake (which some think it has an IE origin):
http://biblehub.com/topical/s/saraph.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraph
a possible comparison to Hebrew seraph "the burning one", "the shining one" but also having a notion for snake (which some think it has an IE origin):
Fascinating Kyriakos! :).
I think that a root matching some possible **srp for "burning" could be the root of the word "carbon": "Borrowed from French carbone, coined by Lavoisier, from Latin carbō, carbōnem (“charcoal, coal”), from Proto-Indo-European *ker- (“to burn”), see also Old English heorþ (“hearth”), Old Norse hyrr (“fire”), Gothic (hauri, “coal”), Old High German harsta (“roasting”), Russian церен (ceren, “brazier”), Old Church Slavonic крада (krada, “hearth, fireplace”), Lithuanian kuriu (“to heat”), karstas (“hot”) and krosnis (“oven”), Sanskrit कृष्ण (kṛṣṇa, “burnt, black”) and कूडयति (kūḍayati, “singes”), Latin cremō (“I consume or destroy by fire, burn; I burn something to ashes; I cremate; I make a burnt offering”)."
darpa could fit also well, I think (d/g-k perhaps - there is also *gwher for heating)
the notion of burn and snake exist also in Gr. διψάς dipsas, as a name for a "burning" (?) snake, as we have seen (δίψα dipsa = thirst, burning).
If muš and mud words are connected (as I 'm tend to think) also darpa could be connected somehow to muš(as bright, burning and also face).
Also concerning "mirror" there is a Sum. word mušalum [MIRROR] (34x: Old Akkadian, Ur III) wr. ma-ša-lum; (zabar)ma-ša-lum; (urud)ma-sal4-lum; mu-ša-lum "mirror" Akk. mušālu
darpa could fit also well, I think (d/g-k perhaps - there is also *gwher for heating)
the notion of burn and snake exist also in Gr. διψάς dipsas, as a name for a "burning" (?) snake, as we have seen (δίψα dipsa = thirst, burning).
Yes I agree on this! :).
If muš and mud words are connected (as I 'm tend to think) also darpa could be connected somehow to muš(as bright, burning and also face).
Also concerning "mirror" there is a Sum. word mušalum [MIRROR] (34x: Old Akkadian, Ur III) wr. ma-ša-lum; (zabar)ma-ša-lum; (urud)ma-sal4-lum; mu-ša-lum "mirror" Akk. mušālu
Nice! :).
I think they are modifications, through the time, of this **kwe(r)kw- etc root (or something like), always; we have discussed it at Giacomo's posts;for example in some words for "cook" etc, also the TK "thorn clusters" which, I think, follow the same pattern. Usually their meaning is about something round - circular. muš for face etc is about something circular too.
Precisely! :) .
Also about this muš for "face/ appearance"; we have compared it with mukha etc, which is close to muš, as an outcome of the process; yet I'm intersted now about the other word for face etc which is pratīka:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%80%E0%A4%95#Sanskrit
this could be also connected, I think; the Greek cognate is πρόσωπον prósōpon:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%83%CF%89%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BD
"πρός (prós, “towards”) + ὤψ (ṓps, “eye”). The existence of Sanskrit प्रतीक (prátīka) indicates that this compound goes back to Proto-Indo-European *prétih₃kʷo-."
Skrt. prati : from Proto-Indo-European *próti, *préti
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF#Sanskrit
Greek πρός pros : From Proto-Indo-European *próti, *préti.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%82
So, we have a kind of "preposition" here (the other part of the compound word is the h₃kʷo , like for eye, sight etc), looking very much like περί peri (around, like in perimeter etc); this is ultimately from *per
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/per-
So, I think we have a a prt / prs modification again; with a labial m instead of p (as it was Whittaker's thought for some Sum. words), we have again a kind of mrs/mrt words; vocalized perhaps like mVs / mVt again; in this case muš, as something between mus and mud, maybe.
So, I think we have a a prt / prs modification again; with a labial m instead of p (as it was Whittaker's thought for some Sum. words), we have again a kind of mrs/mrt words; vocalized perhaps like mVs / mVt again; in this case muš, as something between mus and mud, maybe.
:D
:D also "mouth" (nasalized) could be connected https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mouth
also Gr. στόμα stoma for "mouth" seems like an inversed "mots" (like muš) :D
Yeah! :D .
mind that the etymology of stoma is not sto-mn (as wikipedia is imlplying), but rather stom-en; from here:
stoma (n.) "orifice, small opening in an animal body," 1680s, Modern Latin, from Greek stoma (genitive stomatos) "mouth; mouthpiece; talk, voice; mouth of a river; any outlet or inlet," from PIE root *stom-en-, denoting various body parts and orifices (source also of Avestan staman- "mouth" (of a dog), Hittite shtamar "mouth," Middle Breton staffn "mouth, jawbone," Cornish stefenic "palate"). Surgical sense is attested from 1937.
https://www.etymonline.com/word/stoma
Whittaker's m/p was about potis (and potnia) and Sum. mutin (πόσις posis in Greek); maybe there is a connection also for the word of drinking also "posis" πόσις in Greek. :D
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CF%8C%CF%83%CE%B9%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
Also about mud = "to gine birth, bring forth, create, produce" (according to Halloran's 2006 edition), concerning the "prt" comparison (prt/mrt/mot) of the "mrt/prt/krt", I think we can compare *per "to give birth", like in Gr. πόρτις (pórtis) f (genitive πόρτῐος); third declension = (poetic) a calf, young heifer (younger than δαμάλη (damálē) says Eustathius; a young maiden"
From Proto-Indo-European *pértis, from *per- (“to give birth”). Cognates include Sanskrit पृथुक (pṛthuka, “boy; the young of any animal”), Old Armenian որդի (ordi, “child”), and Latin partus (“birth; offspring”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CF%8C%CF%81%CF%84%CE%B9%CF%82
Whittaker's m/p was about potis (and potnia) and Sum. mutin (πόσις posis in Greek); maybe there is a connection also for the word of drinking also "posis" πόσις in Greek. :D
Good point! :D .
rom Proto-Indo-European *pértis, from *per- (“to give birth”). Cognates include Sanskrit पृथुक (pṛthuka, “boy; the young of any animal”), Old Armenian որդի (ordi, “child”), and Latin partus (“birth; offspring”).
This is very very interesting! :) .
Hello Nirjhar,
I'm not 100% sure about this, but concerning this Sum. word (especially the Emesal forms) I have the impression that we could use a similar pattern:
ĝeštug [EAR] (269x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ĝeštug2; [ĝeš]ĝeštug; ĝeštug; ĝeštug3; muštug2; mu-uš-tug2; mu-uš-tug "reason, plan; (to be) wise; wisdom, understanding; ear" Akk. hassu; uznu; uznu; ţēmu
compared to Proto-Indo-European/bʰewdʰ- "to be awake, be aware" (as a "mot" type, like in mud words):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/b%CA%B0ewd%CA%B0-
(especially some "pust / bust" types, compared perhaps to the mu-uš part, like Gr. πεῦσις peûsis - πύστις pustis "that which is learned by asking" etc:
etc),https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CF%8D%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B9%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
Generally, the meaning is of Sanskrit बोध (bodha), from Proto-Indo-European *bʰowdʰ-os, Hindi बोध (bodh) m "1. insight, knowledge, synonyms: ज्ञान (gyān), 2. intelligence, 3. perception, cognition"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AC%E0%A5%8B%E0%A4%A7#Sanskrit
also this Bengali word buza "to understand": :)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A6%AC%E0%A7%8B%E0%A6%9D%E0%A6%BE#Bengali
compared to Proto-Indo-European/bʰewdʰ- "to be awake, be aware" (as a "mot" type, like in mud words):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/b%CA%B0ewd%CA%B0-
(especially some "pust / bust" types, compared perhaps to the mu-uš part, like Gr. πεῦσις peûsis - πύστις pustis "that which is learned by asking" etc:
etc),https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CF%8D%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B9%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
Makes sense I think :) .
Nostratic, from ToB:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=+733&root=config
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=2068&root=config
One wonders if the *ous root for "ear" is connected also with Sum. mu-uš (without the initial m):
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=++15&root=config
One wonders if the *ous root for "ear" is connected also with Sum. mu-uš (without the initial m):
Yes ! :) , interesting its not there in Indic.
This "dissapearance" of the initial consonant (ĝ/m in Sumerian) I think is random; sometimes I think it has dissapeared from Sumerian, existing in some IE comparable word; here, if the comparison is correct, only a h₂ sound exists in the place of the full consonant.
Also, about the root for "ear", wictionary opens another possibility, a connection with the root of "perceive, see" *h₂ew- :
h₂ṓws: Originally a root noun or an s-stem derived from *h₂ew- (“to see”) with a semantic shift to "to hear" after the split of Anatolian branch.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82%E1%B9%93ws
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82ew-
Gr. αἰσθάνομαι aisthanomai or αἴσθομαι aisthomai "I perceive, apprehend, notice; I understand; I learn" is interesting, I think, because it has a suffix -isd- reminding perhaps the -št- of Sum. ĝestug / muštug. From Proto-Indo-European *h₂ewisd-, from *h₂ew- (“to see, perceive”), from which also comes ἀΐω (aḯō). Cognates include Sanskrit आविस् (āvís, “openly, manifestly, evidently”), Latin audiō (“I hear”), and Hittite 𒌋𒀪𒄭 (u-uḫ-ḫi, “I see”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B1%E1%BC%B0%CF%83%CE%B8%CE%AC%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%B9#Ancient_Greek
For Armenian ունգն (ungn) ear; handle (of a cup, jar, door), it is stated in wiktionary : From *ուն- (*un-), from Proto-Indo-European *h₂ows-, + -կն (-kn). This was added perhaps under the influence of ակն (akn, “eye”)). The sense of “handle” was formed by association.
Maybe the final ug of muštug has something to do with igi = eye?
I think is random; sometimes I think it has dissapeared from Sumerian, existing in some IE comparable word; here, if the comparison is correct, only a h₂ sound exists in the place of the full consonant.
I agree :).
Also, about the root for "ear", wictionary opens another possibility, a connection with the root of "perceive,
True :) .
I think, because it has a suffix -isd- reminding perhaps the -št- of Sum. ĝestug / muštug. From Proto-Indo-European *h₂ewisd-, from *h₂ew- (“to see, perceive”), from which also comes ἀΐω (aḯō). Cognates include Sanskrit आविस् (āvís, “openly, manifestly, evidently”), Latin audiō (“I hear”), and Hittite 𒌋𒀪𒄭 (u-uḫ-ḫi, “I see”).
Yes quite interesting! :) .
Maybe the final ug of muštug has something to do with igi = eye? .
Yes, possible IMO! :D .
Another interesting thing is that in Hittite "ear" is "istaman(a)"; from the same root of Greek stoma (it has to do also with a notion of "round" I think):
15.11 — PERCEIVE — The underlying meaning of Hitt. istanh- < IE *stem-H1- is ‘perceive with the senses’, as shown by its specialization in several different directions: cf. istanh- ‘taste’, Gk. στόμα ‘mouth’, etc. vs. H. istaman(a)- ‘ear’ and IGI.HI.A-as istamassuwar ‘eyesight’ (see 4.22). The nearest thing to an Anatolian terminology for the physical senses may be found in such designations as [D]Istamanassas and [D]Sakuwassas, deities of hearing and vision (P 459).
this *stem / *stom is the one I think it's a mots "muš" reversed :D
Fascinating Kyriakos! :D .
:D then the "muš" of "face, appearance" and the one of muštug are connected etymologically :D
Also I am wondering now if this supposed initial consonat (resembling the ĝ of ĝeštug) is somehow preserved in Pokorny's root 1. keu-, skeu-, lengthened grade kēu- 'to see, hear, observe, hearken, attend to'; maybe then Latin audio and cautio are connected too :D
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0952
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/(s)kewh%E2%82%81-
Anyway, the persian word for "ear" is "guš":
ear: From Middle English ere, ȝhere, from Old English ēare (“ear”), from the voiced Verner alternant of Proto-Germanic *ausô (“ear”) (compare Scots ear, West Frisian ear, Dutch oor, German Ohr, Swedish öra, Danish øre), from Proto-Indo-European *h₂ṓws (compare Old Irish áu, Latin auris, Lithuanian ausìs, Russian у́хо (úxo), Albanian vesh, Ancient Greek οὖς (oûs), Old Armenian ունկն (unkn), and Persian گوش (guš)).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ear
Also I am wondering now if this supposed initial consonat (resembling the ĝ of ĝeštug) is somehow preserved in Pokorny's root 1. keu-, skeu-, lengthened grade kēu- 'to see, hear, observe, hearken, attend to'; maybe then Latin audio and cautio are connected too :D
Yes of course! :) .
Anyway, the persian word for "ear" is "guš":
:D .
Another example of a "mrt/ prt" etc type IE root bearing the meaning "round, circular", but without the initial consonant, it's, as I think, the root *Hret- (“to roll”); also *Hrot-; like in Lat. rota "wheel; (pars pro toto) a car, a chariot": Cognate with Sanskrit रथ (ratha, “chariot”), Lithuanian ratas (“wheel”), Old High German rad (“wheel”) (German Rad (“wheel”)), Albanian rreth. Compare the Latin rotundus (“round, circular”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rota#Latin
Sanskrit रथ (rátha) here:
From Proto-Indo-Iranian *HrátHas, from Proto-Indo-European *Hret- (“to roll”). Cognates include Latin rota, Old Irish roth, Old High German rad and Lithuanian ratas.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%A5#Sanskrit
The initial full consonant (maybe a p?) could have been silenced leaving a laryngeal H, I think.
The initial full consonant (maybe a p?) could have been silenced leaving a laryngeal H, I think.
Yes I agree ! :) . I also think this will give many traditional linguists heart attacks! ;).
It's as if one have to learn about quantum physics apart from the traditional one ;)
Exactly! :) .
Something I was thinking yesterday: In Sumerian, I think, there can be some other forms of these "mrt roots" (denoting somethig circular) having the third root letter also as a labial (instead of dental); for example something like **mrp could be found in this "murub" we were talking about, meaning things again circular in shape, like "waist - middle", "thigh", "city gate" etc; not so strange, if one considers all the possible alterations of **kw/r/kw model root.
Of course Kyriakos.
This *Hret root does not exist in Greek; instead there is this similar *dʰregʰ root (for "run" etc) we were talking about, like in τροχός trokhos "wheel", from *dʰrogʰos (also in Old Armenian դուրգն durgn, “potter's wheel”). So, perhaps there was also some "inversion" here, like **gʰredʰ *dʰregʰ- and finally from **gʰredʰ we could have Hred/t, with a silenced initially g, somehow.
I understand :) .
A loss of the initial consonant, maybe like in Arm. որովայն (orovayn) "belly, paunch, abdomen", "womb, uterus, matrix"
From Proto-Indo-European *krop-, o-grade of *krep- + -այն (-ayn). Doublet of կերպ (kerp).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D5%B8%D6%80%D5%B8%D5%BE%D5%A1%D5%B5%D5%B6#Old_Armenian
*krep, like in Latin corpus etc https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/krep-
Also Armenian կերպ (kerp) "form, figure, shape, cut, fashion, make". Borrowing from Middle Iranian; compare Middle Persian klp (kirb, “body, form”). Ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *krep-. Doublet of որովայն (orovayn).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D5%AF%D5%A5%D6%80%D5%BA#Old_Armenian
(which I think it is from the kwel/kwer root).
And also perhaps like for the words like ''ape'' in that case Sanskrit has Kapi .
https://www.etymonline.com/word/ape
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=kapi&direct=au
which reminded me of the root of garbha (*gʷólbʰ-o-s < *gʷélbʰ) which I thought is of the same origin with Sum. murub (meaning also vagina, womb)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/g%CA%B7elb%CA%B0-
*gʷólbʰ-o-s also looks like Gr. κόλπος kolpos "bossom, womb, gulf etc" (from *kwelp, like Germ. hwalfą "vault, arch" from pre-Germanic *kʷólpo-)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%8C%CE%BB%CF%80%CE%BF%CF%82
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/hwalf%C4%85
kʷólpo- > kolpos looks also like It. *korpos for "corpus"and one is almost forced to admit some common origin for all these...
Yup! :) .
Not to mention about the root of "half" from *(s)kelH- (“to cut”) through a sense ‘divided’ or from a stem *ḱol-bʰo-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/halbaz
which Mayrhofer connected to Skrt. kalpa, which I thought was comparable to Sum. kilib, but also to *kwel etc.
I think that both murub and kilib is of the same origin, as for example Gr. kolpos ( = womb) and morphe (= form, shape) are also ultimately of the same origin; but the secret lies in a pre-IE, or rather in an archaic linguistic continuum (I remember Daniel's words about that) including the proto IE and other languages, mainly the Sumerian.
I mean I don't think anymore about borrowings etc, but about the common origin of these languages, in spite of the difference in grammar structure etc.
Of course, this can be totally wrong; that's my idea about all that.
The suggestion about kapi and "ape" is very interesting, I remember that in Sumerian is ugubi (Halloran has also agab). I wonder if Gr. πίθηκος pithekos could be somehow connected (probably not):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%AF%CE%B8%CE%B7%CE%BA%CE%BF%CF%82
I don't think anymore about borrowings etc, but about the common origin of these languages, in spite of the difference in grammar structure etc.
Of course, this can be totally wrong; that's my idea about all that. .
I agree with you! and I find your strategy scientific! :).
I wonder if Gr. πίθηκος pithekos could be somehow connected (probably not):
hmmm this is intriguing! .
Another thought: maybe πῐ́θηκος (píthēkos), Dor. πῐ́θᾱκος (píthākos) "ape" is comparable to Sum. bizaza "frog" bizaza [FROG] (16x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. bi2-za-za; bil2-za; bi-za-za "frog; ~ figurine" Akk. muşa'irānu (like pi-tha-ka / bi-za-za?); since its arguable etymology it's about a notion of "ugliness": πῐ́θηκος (píthēkos) Dor. πῐ́θᾱκος (píthākos) "ape" Uncertain. Commonly connected with Latin foedus (“ugly”), as if from a Proto-Indo-European *bʰid-, *bʰoyd-. Beekes argues for an origin as a loan-word or perhaps Pre-Greek.
Lat. foedus "filthy, loathsome, ugly" From Proto-Indo-European *bʰoyH- (“to frighten; be afraid”). Compare Old English bǣdan (“to defile”). More at bad.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bad#English
Another thought: maybe πῐ́θηκος (píthēkos), Dor. πῐ́θᾱκος (píthākos) "ape" is comparable to Sum. bizaza "frog" bizaza [FROG] (16x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. bi2-za-za; bil2-za; bi-za-za "frog; ~ figurine" Akk. muşa'irānu (like pi-tha-ka / bi-za-za?); since its arguable etymology it's about a notion of "ugliness": πῐ́θηκος (píthēkos) Dor. πῐ́θᾱκος (píthākos) "ape" .
Yes this makes sense! :D .
I think that the *dʰregʰ- > **gʰredʰ > *Hret, for "weel", resembles to a TK "thorn cluster, first "inversed", let's say, like T(r)K > K(r)T, then having its K dropped, leaving only a H behind (for similar matters look at Kloekhorst's paper, especially pages 5-6).
A possible loss of an initial letter perhaps also in the case of these Sum. words:
ib [ANGRY] (35x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ib2 "(to be) angry; to curse" Akk. agāgu; arāru
ib [HIPS] (36x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ib2 "hips; middle" Akk. qablu.
The first one seems like a dib (drp?) without a "d" (Halloran: ib2, eb2 " to be angry; to flare up in anger; to curse, isult".
The second one looks like murub (mrp?) without an m or rather without both m and r (Halloran: ib2, eb2 "middle, waist; hip; loins; thighs.")
I think that the *dʰregʰ- > **gʰredʰ > *Hret, for "weel", resembles to a TK "thorn cluster, first "inversed", let's say, like T(r)K > K(r)T, then having its K dropped, leaving only a H behind (for similar matters look at Kloekhorst's paper, especially pages 5-6).
I agree :).
The first one seems like a dib (drp?) without a "d" (Halloran: ib2, eb2 " to be angry; to flare up in anger; to curse, isult".
Yes.
The second one looks like murub (mrp?) without an m or rather without both m and r (Halloran: ib2, eb2 "middle, waist; hip; loins; thighs.")
I agree .
The word mirša [SNAKE] (4x: Old Babylonian) wr. mir-ša4 "snake" Akk. šibbu "a fierce mythical snake", could be also from *mrs (mrs giving also muš "snake"); the inversed type srm > srp "serp-ent" could give also Akk. šibbu (srp > srip-> šib).
Yup :).
I was thinking that another verb in Greek about "burn" etc with a "pr", like perhaps in darpa, is πρήθω pretho (also πίμπρημι pimpremi - a reduplicated form with a nasal infix, like pi-m-pre-mi (both pretho and pimpremi with a long "e"):
πρήθω pretho, impf. ἔπρηθον emprethon（ἐν-): aor. ἔπρησα epresa (v. infr.): —Pass., pf. πέπρησμαι: aor. ἐπρήσθην (v. infr.): A.R. seems to use πρήσοντα, πρήσοντος as pres. part., 4.819, 1537: (for the signf.
A.burn, v. πίμπρημι pimpremi; cf. also ἐμπρήθω empretho, πρηστήρ prester):—Ep. Verb (rarely if ever in Com., v. infr.), blow out, swell out by blowing, “ἔπρησεν δ᾽ ἄνεμος μέσον ἱστίον” Od.2.427; “ἐν δ᾽ ἄνεμος πρῆσεν μέσον ἱστίον” Il.1.481; “νότου πρήσαντος ἅλα” AP13.27 (Phal.); “πρῆσαι γαστέρα” LXXNu.5.22 :—Pass., ἐπρήσθη dub. in Amphis 30.10; “κοιλία πεπρησμένη” LXX Nu.5.21; “πέπρησται ἱστία” Ael.NA2.17; “λαίφεα πρησθέντα” Q.S.14.416.
2. spout, τὸ δ᾽ [αἷμα] ἀνὰ στόμα καὶ κατὰ ῥῖνας πρῆσε he spouted blood from his mouth and nostrils, Il.16.350.
3. blow into a flame, π. πυρὸς μένος, of Hephaestus, A.R.4.819.
II. intr., blow, ib.1537.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dprh%2Fqw
Also πρηστήρ prester, may mean: A.hurricane or waterspout attended with lightning (
II. pair of bellows,
III. pl., veins of the neck when swollen by anger (Hsch.)
IV. a kind of serpent, whose bite is poisonous.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*p%3Aentry+group%3D199%3Aentry%3Dprhsth%2Fr
Good comparison ! :) .
About Sum. mú(d) to grow (up, out), sprout; to ignite; to incite
(rarely seen Auslaut /d/, /r/ or /dr/? (which is given by Foxvog)
concerning its meaning as "ignite / incite", it reminded me (perhaps as "mudr") this Gr. word: μύδρος mydros "a mass of red-hot metal" (unknown etymology)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dmu%2Fdros
Good one! :) .
Another word is βράσσω brasso, Att. βρα^δύ-ττω bradytto, aor.
A. shake violently, throw up, of the sea, 2. winnow grain, Ar.Fr.271, Pl.Sph.226b.
3. abs., = βράζω, boil, interpol. in Gp.7.15.20; dub. sens. in Hp. l.c.
4. βράττειν: πληθύνειν, βαρύνειν, Hsch.
Etymology in Starling (mrad) and Pokorny (meredh):
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=2192&root=config
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpokorny&text_number=1298&root=config
http://etimologija.baltnexus.lt/?w=murdynas
A kind of **mrd root perhaps (one can think of many words, like mud [*mrd] "rabid" - for "burn, boil" - dub [**drb/**drm] for "tremble, shake", also maybe dib etc.
Concerning the meaning "throw" etc perhaps also comparable (as **mrt > **krt/**grd) to Sum. gurud [THROW] (16x: Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. gurud; gurud2 "to throw, place" Akk. nadû
Pokorny's root:
merədh-, mrādh-
English meaning "to boil; to jolt, shake
German meaning `aufsprudeln, aufschütteln'?
Grammatical comments
General comments
Derivatives
Material Gr. βράσσω, att. βράττω (*μρᾱθ-ι̯ω), Aor. ἔβρᾰσα, ion. ἐκ-βρήσσω `siede, brause auf, worfle', βρασμός `das Sieden'; lett. mùrdêt `aufsprudeln', murdi `Sprudel', lit. mùrdau, -yti `hineinstoßend versenken'.
Concerning the meaning "throw" etc perhaps also comparable (as **mrt > **krt/**grd) to Sum. gurud [THROW] (16x: Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. gurud; gurud2 "to throw, place" Akk. nadû
I agree . Good suggestion :) .
I made another thought: gurud looks a bit like the *gwelH- of gr. βάλλω ballo "throw" etc (as if with r instead of l and some d extension)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/g%CA%B7elH-
βάλλω ballo, (transitive) I throw, cast, hurl; (transitive) I let fall; (transitive) I strike, touch; (transitive) I put, place; (intransitive) I fall, tumble:
From Proto-Indo-European *gʷl̥-ne-h₁-, nasal-infix from *gʷelH- (“to hit by throwing”). Cognates are uncertain, but compare Sanskrit उद्गूर्ण (ud-gūrṇa) and Old Irish at·baill (“dies”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B2%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%BB%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=udgurna&direct=se
This ud-gūrṇa seemss like a gurud upside down and without the nasal infix (gur-ud).
This ud-gūrṇa seemss like a gurud upside down and without the nasal infix (gur-ud).
Yes very exciting! :) .
Hello Nirjhar,
As I see it, I think there are some other Sumerian words with similar notions (generally meaning "to put, to place, to carry, to lift), like for example gur, wr. gur3-ru; guru3; gur; gur17; guru6 "bearer; to lift, carry" Akk. našû; nāšû; also gaĝ, wr. gaĝx(IL2); ga-aĝ3 "to carry" Akk. našû; also the nasalized ones ĝar, wr. ĝar; ĝa2; ĝa2-ar; ĝa2ĝar; ĝarar; mar; ĝa2ĝarar "to put, place, lay down; to give in place of something, replace; to posit (math.)" Akk. šakānu (especially this ĝar -ngwar- as "mar" could unite these two IE roots *gwer and *meredh mentioned above, perhaps); there is also ĝal, wr. ĝal2; ma-al; ga2gal2 "to be (there, at hand, available); to exist; to put, place, lay down; to have" Akk. bašû; šakānu. Especially the nasalized labiovelar ones - like **nkwar / **nkwal could be the ones that could have produced the *per root words in IE (like phero, far, further etc), perhaps (this I know is a wild guess), also there could be some connection with the *bher here, but I'm not sure how; maybe the nasals work like the glottal stops and a de-glottalization - here a de-nasalization - could produce these other roots with a change to a p or bh consonant. We must search the glottal theory again, maybe.
I agree with you .
Something else, about brasso (> *μρᾱθ-ι̯ω - *mrAth-yo) and its meaning of πληθύνειν plethynein "multiply, increase", βαρύνειν barynein "weigh down, oppress" etc, according to Hesychius:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dbra%2Fssw
I think this opens a possibility for a connection (not only to a word like Sum. gurud "to throw", but also) to the IE root of "heavy" and "weight" (*gwerH), compared already to Sum. gur "*(to be) thick, big"; for example a dental suffix seems to exist in the case of Lat. brutus: An Oscan loanword, from Proto-Indo-European *gʷréh₂us. Cognate with Ancient Greek βαρύς (barús), Persian گران (gerân) and Sanskrit गुरु (gurú). See also Latin gravis.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/brutus#Latin
Yes I agree! :D I was also thinking the same :).
About "press, squeeze, weigh down" etc there is also a Gr. verb πιέζω piezo; from the same origin with Skrt. pīḍayati < pīḍ (they say it is from "pizd")
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dpie%2Fzw
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=pIDayati&direct=se&script=ia&link=yes&mode=3
https://www.etymonline.com/word/piezo-
This etymology grom epi + sed seems strange to me; I was thinking that the "pid" of pidayati could look like a dib (**dip) inverted (like in Sum. dib we were talking about meaning "1. to pass,go along; 2. to go past ; 3. to go through ; 4. to cross over ; 5. to audit ; 6. to transfer); I mean, if some word like gurud etc for throwing etc, connected also with some others meaning "to put, to place, to carry, to lift" etc and also with some meaning "heavy", "weigh down", "opress" etc, so we could have pid for "squeeze" and "press" connected to an (inverted) dib/dip "to go through, to pass" etc but also "to transfer".
The notion is good ! :) .
Meanwhile, Mayrhofer (as Giacomo has about told, about one year ago, at our conversations) says that pīḍayati and πιέζω piezo belong ultimately to this root *peys - like पिष्ट (piṣṭá)
1. crushed, ground, 2. kneaded (of the hands) 3. clasped, squeezed, rubbed together.
From Proto-Indo-European *pis-tós, from *peys- (“to grind, to crush”). Cognate with Latin pistus and Middle Persian pst' (“brown flour”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%B7%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%9F#Sanskrit
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/peys-
Lat. pīnsō (present infinitive pīnsere, perfect active pīnsuī or pīnsī, supine pīnsum or pistum or pīnsitum); third conjugation; I beat; I pound; I bray; I crush.
From Proto-Indo-European *peys- (“to crush”). Cognate includes Ancient Greek πτισάνη (ptisánē, “barley”), πτίσσω (ptíssō, “to winnow, peel”); Proto-Slavonic пьсеница (pĭsenica, “wheat”); Sanskrit पिनष्टि (pinaṣṭi, “to grind”). Compare pīla, pīlum.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pinso#Latin
All the following are some controversial thoughts, Nirjhar. Anyway, here some remarks: 1. Gr. πτίσσω (ptíssō) "peel" is another pt- word, like pterne "heel", ptolis / polis "city" etc; as a matter of fact the *peys root could be like **(t)peys (in accordance with *tpelH (for "city"); so we could have a **tp, maybe reduplicated. 2. this *peys root looks a lot like Sum. peš "thick" etc (see also above, about Sum. gur "to be thick" and all these connections etc) 3. the meaning of *peys is knead, grind, rub etc, the same with one of the *ken roots. Additionally, some other *ken root means "young" etc; same is the meaning of another peš root "young" etc (which I thought comparable perhaps with Gr. pais "child", from paw-id-s) 4. IE *peys (as such) can have a nasal infix, like in Skrt. pinaṣṭi and Latin pīnsō - a nasal infix exists also in the root of "thick" etc we have compared to Sum. peš like in Skrt. bahu < From Proto-Indo-European *bʰn̥ǵʰús (“thick”). Cognate with Avestan (bązah) and Ancient Greek παχύς (pakhús, “thick, large”). 5. This nasal exists also in the *ken series.
The conclusion is that there is a great possibility again of an archaic **kwe(n)/ **kwa(n) root or something like, perhaps k'we(n)/k'wa(n), which reduplicated and modified could produce these similar roots. So, we could have a **kwar and **kwan root (or a **kwar/l/n root), at the end, perhaps.
btw, if you remember "peš" is also used in the names of some rodents (maybe the "fat ones"); if "peš" is from a **kwens (let's say) proto-word, that could be, if nasalized, similar to ĝeš "sixty", wr. geš2 wriiten also as mu-uš (maybe pronounced as muš). I have said it before, but maybe this mu-uš < geš, if it is connected to "peš" for rodents, could explain perhaps the IE *mus for "mouse".
About the same meaning "press" etc, there is another Gr. word I can think about
*ἴπτομαι iptomai, fut. ἴψομαι: aor. 1 ἰψάμην:—
A.press hard, oppress, “μέγα δ᾽ ἴψαο λαὸν Ἀχαιῶν” Il.1.454, 16.237; “τάχα δ᾽ ἴψεται υἷας Ἀχαιῶν” 2.193: generally, hurt, harm, σὺ τόνδε μηρὸν ἴψω; Theoc.Adon.19, cf. Str. 8.6.7:—Act., ἴπτω , = βλάπτω, only in EM481.3; ἶψαι, ἴψας, Hsch. (Perh. related to ἰάπτω (B) or to ἶπος.)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Di)%2Fptomai
(as an **ip/**ib with a "press, opress, harm" meaning - maybe with a loss of an initial t of (**tip/dib - like in the Sum ib/dib).
The conclusion is that there is a great possibility again of an archaic **kwe(n)/ **kwa(n) root or something like, perhaps k'we(n)/k'wa(n), which reduplicated and modified could produce these similar roots. So, we could have a **kwar and **kwan root (or a **kwar/l/n root), at the end, perhaps.
Yup! :) .
I have said it before, but maybe this mu-uš < geš, if it is connected to "peš" for rodents, could explain perhaps the IE *mus for "mouse".
:D ! .
(as an **ip/**ib with a "press, opress, harm" meaning - maybe with a loss of an initial t of (**tip/dib - like in the Sum ib/dib).
Yes quite agreeable .
Hi, Nirjhar, another IE - Sumerian comparison:
Sum. emeš [SUMMER] (45x: Old Babylonian) wr. e2-me-eš; emeš2 "summer" Akk. ummu
not very likely, but what about a comparison with the root of "summer" *sam-, *sem-, *sm̥-h₂-ó- (inversed?):
From Middle English somer, sumer, from Old English sumor (“summer”), from Proto-Germanic *sumaraz (“summer”), from Proto-Indo-European *sam-, *sem-, *sm̥-h₂-ó- (“summer, year”). Cognate with Scots somer, sumer, simer (“summer”), West Frisian simmer (“summer”), Saterland Frisian Suumer (“summer”), Dutch zomer (“summer”), Low German Sommer (“summer”), German Sommer (“summer”), Danish and Norwegian Bokmål sommer (“summer”), Swedish sommar (“summer”), Norwegian Nynorsk and Icelandic sumar (“summer”), Welsh haf (“summer”), Armenian ամ (am, “year”), ամառ (amaṙ, “summer”), Sanskrit समा (samā, “a half-year, season, weather, year”), Northern Kurdish havîn (“summer”), Central Kurdish (hawîn, “summer”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/summer
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1687
Skrt. समा (sámā) f, means "season, weather, year, half year"; I think that, if Sum. emeš is to be compared to a *sem root, that could be the *semi root for "half"; especially in Greek, hḗmisus (m), hḗmisu, (n) means “half”; maybe then emeš is "half year"?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/semi-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hemi-#English
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1687
what about a comparison with the root of "summer" .
Good proposal! .
Skrt. समा (sámā) f, means "season, weather, year, half year"; I think that, if Sum. emeš is to be compared to a *sem root, that could be the *semi root for "half"; especially in Greek, hḗmisus (m), hḗmisu, (n) means “half”; maybe then emeš is "half year"?
This also makes sense IMO! :) .
Another curious thing is the Armenian "amar" for "summer".
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D5%A1%D5%B4%D5%A1%D5%BC%D5%B6#Old_Armenian
If the stem for "summer" *sem- is connected generally to the stem for "half", maybe we could make a connection with this Sum. word:
amar [YOUNG] (2771x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium) wr. amar "calf; young, youngster, chick; son, descendant" Akk. būru; māru
Imagine something like "halfling".
Beautiful! :D
:D a similar word for half in Sumerian is sa9 [MAŠ], which is written like "maš"; according to Halloran and Foxvog maš is also a word for "half" (not for ePSD I think); maybe it's a kind of *sam/sem inversed? (not sure about that).
Inversed possible!
Maybe maš is a kind of *médʰyos/ madʰyos for "middle" and sam/sem is just an inversed form :p
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/m%C3%A9d%CA%B0yos
Interesting :) .
If these other comparisons we have made (such as mukh- for "muš" "face" or bah- / pakh- for "peš" "thick") are valid, then a madh- for "maš" seems also possible.
Yes :) .
Maybe also Sum. aš [ONE] (191x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. aš "one" Akk. išten, is connected to *sem = one, like in Greek εἷς (heîs) etc:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/s%E1%B8%97m
Maybe also ušu [ALONE] wr. ušu "alone" Akk. ēdišš. Perhaps also ušu [THIRTY] wr. ušu3 "thirty", from *semi = half (as half of 60, maybe); not sure about all that.
Maybe also Sum. aš [ONE] (191x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. aš "one" Akk. išten, is connected to *sem = one, like in Greek εἷς (heîs) etc:
Yes ! :) .
Maybe also ušu [ALONE] wr. ušu "alone" Akk. ēdišš. Perhaps also ušu [THIRTY] wr. ušu3 "thirty", from *semi = half (as half of 60, maybe); not sure about all that.
Very interesting! :) .
There is a Sum. month called "amar-a-a-si: calendar month 10 at Lagaš during Ur III."
since the Sum. year started in autumn (September/October, I think), this month normally is at summer.
quite possible :)
There is a also another connected issue, I think, of the "umun" Sumerian words:
for example there is umun "pit, pond", Akk. habbu "a pit?"; hammu "pond, puddle", which I thought connected to a Gr. amos/ amis / amnion "container for gathering water and other liquids"( < *sem, "pour" in Pokorny, or perhaps *sem "to be together, to gather"); also "umun" blood, which I thought it was maybe connected to "haima" for "blood", of unknwn origin, yet close to the same *sem for "pour" (Giacomo gave a root *saim), perhaps haima's **sam/sem was "contaminated" with a root of "throwing" (in case of weapons, like arrows etc, maybe there is another explanation). If Daniel was also right about blood and body connection, maybe Sum. umun "life-giving force; main body, bulk" (Akk. mummu; ummatu) was also connected not only with haima "blood", but also with soma for "body", as a kind of loan-word, perhaps, in Greek, from a *som root (?); then Sum. su "body, skin" could be of the same root with sa (half), if sa is from *sem (?); also the "umun" word instead for "en" (for lord etc) could be again from a **som-n root of *sem/som etc for "(the) one"; I was thinking, if you remember, of a comparison with a haimon word in Greek which was an aristocrate title, maybe also with a meaning of "expert" (perhaps connected to a *som (as *sa(i)m again, like in *sam/sem "one" or maybe "fit together" meaning). Not sure about all these, I think they're also just (quite) possible.
I am in total agreement ! :) .
BTW check your inbox too ...I sent something :).
I checked it, thank you, it's about the different IE "layers" in Greek; it's quite possible, yes, I agree; the existence of a common older IE substratum in Greek and Italic is a very interesting idea. :)
Yes Kyriakos :).
The authors also allow the existence of different substrates and also for instance ,we don't find analysis of typical ''pre-Greek'' words with -assa like thalassa 'sea'.
Yes, but even for θάλαασα thalassa we don't know if it is an IE word or not; Hesychius gives a gloss δάλαγχα "dalankha" (of Macedonian origin I think) for common "thalassa" and that is one thing that makes me think that Sum š in muš "face" etc could "hid", in some cases, at least, a kind of "-nkh-" corresponding to some similar sound of a double s, -ss- (maybe initialy pronounced as "sh"), as in thalassa "sea".
I was thinking of comparing this also :
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=tarala&direct=au
But whats the origin of δάλαγχα ? :) .
tarala is from Pokorny's ter-1 "to tremble, dabble"; it reminds Gr. τᾰρᾰ́σσω (tarássō) "to disturb, agitate":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%AC%CF%83%CF%83%CF%89
δάλαγχα (or ruther δαλάγχα) is of unknown origin:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*d%3Aentry+group%3D4%3Aentry%3Ddala%2Fgxan
Hesychius has also another curious word, δάξα daxa, for "sea"; maybe from δάσσω "to divide" (like δάιω, δατέομαι etc, maybe the meaning is about a dividing element between the lands)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*d%3Aentry+group%3D6%3Aentry%3Dda%2Fca
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=da%2Fca&la=greek&can=da%2Fca0&d=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:alphabetic%20letter=*d:entry%20group=6:entry=da/ca&i=1
*ter is the base root for *trem, *tres, *trep in Pokorny, I think.
If dalankha is really Macedonian, there is a big chance that this initial "d" is in the reality a "dh".
tarala is from Pokorny's ter-1 "to tremble, dabble"; it reminds Gr. τᾰρᾰ́σσω (tarássō) "to disturb, agitate":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%AC%CF%83%CF%83%CF%89
Yes of course .
δάλαγχα (or ruther δαλάγχα) is of unknown origin:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*d%3Aentry+group%3D4%3Aentry%3Ddala%2Fgxan
I see .
Hesychius has also another curious word, δάξα daxa, for "sea"; maybe from δάσσω "to divide" (like δάιω, δατέομαι etc, maybe the meaning is about a dividing element between the lands)
Yes that makes sense :).
*ter is the base root for *trem, *tres, *trep in Pokorny, I think..
Me too.
If dalankha is really Macedonian, there is a big chance that this initial "d" is in the reality a "dh". .
I understand Kyriakos.
I've just thought that if *sam/sem is connected to an inverted kind of medh-s/madh-s/ (like ** mets/mats perhaps) for "middle", then Sum. umun "blood" could be just a form of Sum. mud "blood" (or the opposite).
Interesting suggestion! :) .
At least the root of σῶμα (sôma) "body" etc is *tewh₂- "to swell, to crowd, to be strong" ( <*tuh₂?-mn̥ )
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/tewh%E2%82%82-
About δαλάγχα dalankha "see", I was thinking also about Sum. kalam / ka-naĝ "the Land (of Sumer)" Akk. mātu, which I was thinking it could mean something like "flat land / plain", which in IE is a root *pele, assuming though a *kwel > pel (or tel); in that case dalankha could be close to talankh- (*kwal > tal); a word with a t instead of the k of kalam /kanaĝ but with the "l" of kalam and the the final "ĝ" ("ng") of kanaĝ (a wild guessing of IE and pre-IE mixture); then it could be **t(h)alank- ; anyway *pele is suppoesd to be the origin of Gr. πέλαγος pelagos, "sea":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%AD%CE%BB%CE%B1%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%82
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