tum [BRING] (144x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. tum3; tum2 "imperfect singular stem of de[to bring]"
compared to Sanskrit taṃsayati (root tAms) "draw to and fro" (also taṃsati):
At least the root of σῶμα (sôma) "body" etc is *tewh₂- "to swell, to crowd, to be strong" ( <*tuh₂?-mn̥ )
Yes :).
dalankha could be close to talankh- (*kwal > tal); a word with a t instead of the k of kalam /kanaĝ but with the "l" of kalam and the the final "ĝ" ("ng") of kanaĝ (a wild guessing of IE and pre-IE mixture); then it could be **t(h)alank-
:D .
tum [BRING] (144x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. tum3; tum2 "imperfect singular stem of de[to bring]"
compared to Sanskrit taṃsayati (root tAms) "draw to and fro" (also taṃsati): ........PIE *tens- ‘pull, tug’: Sanskrit taṃsayati ‘draws back and forth,’ Gothic at-þinsan ‘pull toward,’ OHG dinsan ‘pull, carry along,’ Lithuanian tę̃sti (tę̃siù) ‘continue, go along; stretch, lengthen; drag out, delay, put off,’ tąsýti (tąsaũ) ‘pull, tug; stretch, extend’ (P:1068-69; MA:187)]
About σῶμα (sôma) "body" etc < *tewh₂- "to swell, to crowd, to be strong" ( <*tuh₂?-mn̥ ), another interesting thing, I think, is the similarity of the *tewh₂- root ("to swell etc") with Pokorny's other root *k̑eu-, k̑eu̯ə- : k̑ū-, k̑u̯ā- 'to swell' (the other root with t in Pokorny is *tēu-, təu-, teu̯ə-, tu̯ō-, tū̆- )
A thing which had made me to think about the **kwe(n)kw(e) root (or something like, maybe the k was a k') again (about "round" etc0; if you remember, we were dicussing about the root of "five" (*penkwe- https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1486 ) and Giacomo was thinking about a kwenkwe, and I thought that *ten for stretch (the hand) could be also from a **kwen (Giacomo disagreed).
About σῶμα (sôma) "body" etc < *tewh₂- "to swell, to crowd, to be strong" ( <*tuh₂?-mn̥ ), another interesting thing, I think, is the similarity of the *tewh₂- root ("to swell etc") with Pokorny's other root *k̑eu-, k̑eu̯ə- : k̑ū-, k̑u̯ā- 'to swell' (the other root with t in Pokorny is *tēu-, təu-, teu̯ə-, tu̯ō-, tū̆- )
Indeed :) . A thing which had made me to think about the **kwe(n)kw(e) root (or something like, maybe the k was a k') again (about "round" etc0; if you remember, we were dicussing about the root of "five" (*penkwe- https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1486 ) and Giacomo was thinking about a kwenkwe, and I thought that *ten for stretch (the hand) could be also from a **kwen (Giacomo disagreed).
For example, if "five" is from **kwenkwe, and we could have **kwenkwe > *penkwe > Gr. πέντε pente "five" or πέμπε pempe (Aeolic type of πέντε) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%AD%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%B5 then we could also have also πέμπω (pémpō) "send, dispatch, send forth" etc (like in πομπή pompe "procession, "pomp") from a root similar to *kwenkw(e) for "send forth"; maybe from a notion of "stretching the hand", perhaps... https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BC%CF%80%CE%AE#Ancient_Greek
Not to say about a possible connection between the *sent and *pent roots (from k̑wen/kwen perhaps?); since the "round" roots could be also for "moving" (like *kwel in wheel etc) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/sent- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/pent-
About Sum. tumu for "give, carry" etc, if we assume a *ten-s > *tem-s > **tem-h, perhaps from **kwen-s> **kwem-s, if, then, this **kwe is de-labialized as "ko" (like in Gr. boukolos from bous "cow" and *kwel>), so becoming something like **kom-s > kom-h (?), then I think there could be a connection with another Gr. verb κομίζω komizō (< κομέω komeō), meaning also "to bring, to carry, to take care" etc: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g2865
In a matter of fact, "tumu" (to bring etc) seems to be connected to "tuku" (to obtain etc).
The root of "ten" (déḱm̥) could be involved, too (since the k most probably is a ḱ > s): "Has been suggested to contain an element *ḱm̥t, possibly from *ḱomt (“hand”), in which case *de-ḱm̥t could mean originally “two hands.” https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/d%C3%A9%E1%B8%B1m%CC%A5
About the "de" part of déḱm̥, I think it reminds also the Sumerian de of tumu as "imperfect singular stem of de[to bring]".
Finally, I think that there could be also a connection to this word κόσμος kosmos = "order, lawful order, government, mode, fashion, ornament, decoration, honour, crediτ, ruler, world, universe, the earth, mankind": "From earlier *ḱónsmos, from Proto-Indo-European *ḱens- or *ḱems-, "to put in order". Related to Latin cēnseō (“to estimate”) and Sanskrit शंसति (śaṃsati, “to commend, praise”)" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%8C%CF%83%CE%BC%CE%BF%CF%82
Especially since the meaning of "decoration" fits also to Skrt. taMsayati. :)
About de [BRING] (1794x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian) wr. de6; ga [ES]; de3; ir[ES]; de2 "to bring, carry" Akk. babālu One notes the Emesal types "ga" and "ir"; ga could lead perhaps to think of some **gwa/gwe, giving (delabialized) both ga and de, as in two dialects; "ir" maybe is a totally different word; or could lead one to think about a possible r extension like **gwe-r/gwir > gir, and a subsequent loss of g, like (/)ir (?); anyway, about ir there is a poosible comparison with Pokorny's *er etc meaning "to move, stir, set in motion" (look for example Hittite ar-nu-mi "to bring, set in motion". https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0498
I think it is possible an existence of 2 similar types (like **k'we and **g'we (with their r/l or n extensions) as we have seen in these *kand/gand etc words before.
could lead one to think about a possible r extension like **gwe-r/gwir > gir, and a subsequent loss of g, like (/)ir (?); anyway, about ir there is a poosible comparison with Pokorny's *er etc meaning "to move, stir, set in motion" (look for example Hittite ar-nu-mi "to bring, set in motion".
I consider possible this! :) .
I think it is possible an existence of 2 similar types (like **k'we and **g'we (with their r/l or n extensions) as we have seen in these *kand/gand etc words before.
From the Hittite Vocabulary (by David Michael Weeks) University of California
10.61 — CARRY — A basic sense ‘transport, (re)move, deliver’ etc. underlies the many shades of meaning apparent in arnu-, a caus. (*r̥-new-/r̥-nu-) to IE *er- ‘move’, matching Skt. ṛṇóti ‘arise’, Av. ərənoiti, Gk. ὄρνῡμι ‘rouse, set in motion’. Also important is the deriv. arnuwala- ‘displaced person, deportee’. P 162-67. In most cases the notion of ‘carrying’ is expressed by the more directionally explicit verbs for ‘bring’, 10.62.
10.62 — BRING — The directional preverbs u- (we-, wa-) ‘hither’ and pe- ‘thither’ are much in evidence in pairs of verbs for ‘bring (here)’ and ‘send (away)’. The basis of uda- ‘bring’ and peda- ‘take away’ is probably dā- ‘take’ (11.13; HWb. 168-69), less likely dai- ‘set, place’ (HWb. 236-37).
For example, g̑em(e)-'to marry' could be from a previous g̑wem- (a second type for *k'wen/m); connected also to *gwen- for woman etc, which couls be connected to damaris etc as Dziebel had roposed (or Sum. dam) ...
For example, g̑em(e)-'to marry' could be from a previous g̑wem- (a second type for *k'wen/m); connected also to *gwen- for woman etc, which couls be connected to damaris etc as Dziebel had roposed (or Sum. dam) ...
Halloran's entries (edition 2006) about these words: ir(10), er(-ra): v., to bring; to lead away; to capture; to carry off; to go (Emesal dialect for tum2, cf., re7).
de6,2, ðe6: to bring, carry (-ši- or -ta- denote direction); to remove (with ra- or -tas-); to continue on (suppletion class verb: singular object hamtu, cf., tum2,3, lah4; Emesal ga(14)).
re7; re6, ri6, ra2, ir10; e-re7; er, ir: to accompany, lead; to bear; to go; to drive along or away; to take possession; to stir, mix (suppletion class verb: plural hamtu e.re7.er; cf., du, ĝen, sub2).
rig; ri: to bring; to tend; to pull; to glean, pick, collect (reduplication class) (flowing motion such as re7, 'to accompany, lead, drive along' + ig, 'door, entrance').
(ePSD has rig [DONATE] (3x: ED IIIb, Old Babylonian) wr. rig7; rig9; rigx(|PA.TUK.DU|) "to donate")
This last one (rig) has a resemblence with Pokorny's Etymon *reig̑-, rēig̑- 'to reach, stretch out' https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1607 connecting also the meanings "to give etc" and "to stretch" btw. Sum. rig seems also a kind of **gir reversed (implying a **gwer perhaps?); also some meanings, as they're in Halloran's lexicon, are implying a connection with Sum. deg "to collect" etc (?).
This rig reminded me also Gr. ὀρέγω (orégō) "I reach, stretch, stretch out, I reach out, hold out, hand, give; I stretch myself out, stretch forth my hand; (with genitive) I reach at, reach out to; I aim at; (with genitive) I yearn for; (with accusative) I take.
of some similar root with *reig of "reach" etc. From Proto-Indo-European *h₃réǵeti. Cognates include Avestan (rāšta), Old Irish rigim, Latin regō, and Old English riht (English right).
About the notion "stretch" etc and the possible connection with πέμπω pempo "send forth", there is also Pokorny's root *temp 'to span, stretch, extend' (like "temple" or "tapistry" etc) https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1987 (assuming both initials t and p < kw of **kwen-)
Foxvog also has in his Sumerian Glossary: ri(g) → de5
de5(g) to pick up, gather up, collect; to remove, plunder (Sallaberger, AV Klein 250) Many still read ri(g); Selz, ASJ 17, 260 reads /dri/. See also Steinkeller, JCS 35, 249f.
[so, I think, there is a connection with deg "to collect" etc; maybe also with some assumed roots we have discussed like **dreg, or drep for Gr. δρέπω etc]
while: de6 → túm
túm, tùm to bring in, deliver; to take away (see Thomsen, Sumerian Language p. 133) Forms include: de6(DU) perf. sg.; túm(DU), tùm imperf. sg.; lah4(DU over DU) or lah5(DU.DU) perf. & imperf. pl. Problems remain, however. In OB there are indications that the sg. forms are túm or tùm perf. and túm-mu imperf. There may be a link between this sign and ku4(r) in OS and Ur III (see Krecher, ZA 77, 7- 21); cf. the Ur III accounting phrase šà mu-TUM2-rata 'out of income.' The Emesal equivalent of túm is ir. See Sallaberger, AV Schretter 557-576 for the following new description: a) bring I = mit sich führen, geleiten ‘to lead, escort’. Used only with living persons or animals that can move by themselves. Forms are túm(DU) perf.sg., tùm imperf. sg., and plural lah4 or lah5 both perf. & imperf.; b) bring II = liefern 'to deliver (by carrying)'. Forms are de6 perf. sg., tùm, túm(-mu) imperf. sg. V. Meyer-Laurin, ZA 100 (2010) 1-14, considers the situation to be "weitaus komplexer" in OB texts, requiring further study. For 65 Emesal forms ga(-ga), ir, see Jaques, AV Attinger 193ff.
This last one (rig) has a resemblence with Pokorny's Etymon *reig̑-, rēig̑- 'to reach, stretch out'
Yes quite rightly :) .
connecting also the meanings "to give etc" and "to stretch" btw. Sum. rig seems also a kind of **gir reversed (implying a **gwer perhaps?); also some meanings, as they're in Halloran's lexicon, are implying a connection with Sum. deg "to collect" etc (?).
Nice suggestion !. :)
This rig reminded me also Gr. ὀρέγω (orégō) "I reach, stretch, stretch out, I reach out, hold out, hand, give; I stretch myself out, stretch forth my hand; (with genitive) I reach at, reach out to; I aim at; (with genitive) I yearn for; (with accusative) I take.
Quite comparable IMO .
(assuming both initials t and p < kw of **kwen-)
Very correct! :) .
so, I think, there is a connection with deg "to collect" etc; maybe also with some assumed roots we have discussed like **dreg, or drep for Gr. δρέπω etc
Maybe it's not deg> leg as Giacomo suggested, but also deg > leg - reg (l/r) or rather de(g) > le(g) - re(g) and then this le(g) became "lah" and the re(g) also as re / er (inversed) or ri / ir etc. Also, if this de is the same of the de in *dekmt (for ten), I remember that it is supposed to become a "he" in case of Gr. hekaton "a hundred" (from *dkmtom - unless it is from (sm-kmtom).
About nagara again :) I remembered something about Skt. grāma; Giacomo has said: "But grāma means also a troop, a nomadic group, and originally indicates a group (also the gamut of notes!) rather than a settlement. In Middle Persian, grāmag means 'wealth, possession', in Baluchi grām is 'burden', in Russian gromada is a 'big heap', in Polish 'crowd, heap, village community'. So, the root is that of a collection, a group from *gr- 'to collect, gather'."
Having in mind the Hreg / Hger comparison and putting a Dreg (D/H) instead, I think there is a (distant) connection to "drachma" (a burden that one holds in his hands) :p :D
From Proto-Indo-European *deh₂mos (“people”) (perhaps originally a feminine), from *deh₂- (“to divide”), whence also δαίομαι (daíomai). The original meaning was thus "part". Cognate with Mycenaean Greek (da-mo), Old Irish dám (“followers, crowd”) and Old Welsh dauu.
supposing that this *deH- is not perhaps about "divide" but about gathering of people or bringing/leading people somewhere (Sum de5 or de6).
Yes, maybe also Emesal "ga" type for "de" or "de(g)" (if we consider also the reading "ri" or "ri(g)" could lead from a de-mo (or rather da-mo) to a ga-mo (perhaps like in gamos marriage?) and then gra-mo / gra-ma (with r); denoting also a "coming together" notion like in agora < ageiro etc. Sorry, Nirjhar, for the wild guessings...
maybe also Emesal "ga" type for "de" or "de(g)" (if we consider also the reading "ri" or "ri(g)" could lead from a de-mo (or rather da-mo) to a ga-mo (perhaps like in gamos marriage?) and then gra-mo / gra-ma (with r); denoting also a "coming together" notion like in agora < ageiro etc.
Finally there is Sum. lah [BRING] (167x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. lah5; lah4 "plural stem of de [to bring]"
reminding Gr. λαός laos "people, crowd, people under arms" etc (especially its Hhittite cognate); maybe from a notion of "bringing people together". other forms λεώς (leṓs) (Attic), ληός (lēós) (Ionic)
Etymology: From Proto-Hellenic *lāwós, possibly from Proto-Indo-European *leh₂wos (“people (under arms)”), from *leh₂- (“military action”).[1] Cognate with Hittite (laḫḫa-, “campaign”) and Phrygian λαϝαγταει (lawagtaei).
According to Halloran's lexicon (ed. 2006) it is lah4,5,6: to bring or lead (plural); to drive off; to plunder, capture, take away; to fling (away) (suppletion class verb: plural form, cf., de6, tum2,3) (ila2, 'to bring', + ha2, 'numerous').
the notion "plunder" (also de5 as "plunder"; look at Foxvog), reminds me of Gr. λεία leia "plunder, booty" etc From Proto-Indo-European *leh₂w-. Cognates include Sanskrit लोत (lota), Latin lucrum, Gothic 𐌻𐌰𐌿𐌽 (laun), Old Norse laun, Old English lean.
maybe the r types (ir, er, re) with an extension (like the one in δρέπω drepo) are connected too; for example in "rob". https://www.etymonline.com/word/rob
(I think we have discussed already in Giacomo's posts a word lib or liblib about plundering, Gr. λάφυρον laphyron "booty" etc).
Latin lucrum "profit, advantage, love of gain, avarice" is also interesting: From Proto-Indo-European *leh₂u- (“profit, gain”) + *-tlom. Cognate with Laverna, Ancient Greek ἀπολαύω (apolaúō, “to enjoy”), λείᾱ (leíā), Sanskrit लोत्र (lotra, “booty”), German Lohn (“reward, wages”), Gothic 𐌻𐌰𐌿𐌽 (laun).
Nirjhar, I think this is about an inverted form (like lah/hal):
Gr. ἐλαύνω (elaúnō) [Alternative forms: ἐλάω (eláō) – poetic; ἐλῶ (elô) – Attic]: drive, set in motion (of going in conveyances); (transitive) ride a horse, drive a chariot, sail a ship; (intransitive) go, ride, sail; drive away; persecute, plague; strike with a weapon, hit one thing against another; beat out metal, forge
From Proto-Indo-European *h₁el- (“to move, drive, go”). See ἦλθον (êlthon). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%90%CE%BB%CE%B1%CF%8D%CE%BD%CF%89
Sum. hal perhaps it is connected, as an inversed form (both hal and lah I think have some Akkadian counterpart words)
hal [DIVIDE] (55x: ED IIIb, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. hal-ha; ha-la; hal "to divide, deal out, distribute; to perform an extispicy; to open; a secret; to pour away; to sieve; to slink, crawl away; a qualification of grain" Akk. barû; halālu; nazālu; petû; pirištu; zâzu; šahālu
I think we are used to that things :) also a Hel root looks a bit like *kwel or *gwel (let's say) with a laryngeal instead of "kw" or "gw"; or to word like turkish gel "to come" (and all these Nostratic words): Eurasiatic: *kä[lH]V Meaning: walk, roam, ford Borean: Borean Indo-European: ? *kel- Altaic: *gèle; TM *guli- 'set out, off'; *kalV ( ~ -ĺ-) 'come near' 743 Uralic: *kälä (cf. also kulke under *ḳoĺV); Sk. qäl- 'run, walk' Kartvelian: *gwal- [or Megr. (n)kill- 'to roam'] Dravidian: NDr *kāl- 'to go, lead' (if separate from *ḱā-) Chukchee-Kamchatkan: Chuk. *ɣala- (336) Comments: ? слав. гулять (ср. картв.) References: At least two roots. МССНЯ 332, ОССНЯ 1, 293-294; ND 616 *gUlE (TM *guli-, Ur. *kulke, Kartv. *gwal-); 869 *kal̄(ʔ)V 'approach, come' (Sk. qäl- + Alt. *kalV + SH *kal-); 872 *käl(h)V 'to walk, wade' (Ur. *kälä- + Alt. *gele [only Turk. and Kor.] + Drav. + again SH *kal-); Greenberg 71 adds IE *kel-; ND 1063 *ḳUĺʕ[ü/u] 'track(s), way; to go, travel' (IE *kel-, ObU *kVĺV 'track(s), sign' +SH). A great deal of confusion here.
So, we have a IE root deH "divide, share" a potential root deH about "gather" etc, also In Sumerian de = bring, lead etc, which has an alternative form lah "bring, lead" etc (perhaps connected also with some IE forms), then, as it seems, an inverted Sum. form hal "divide, share, lot" etc (maybe also connected to some IE type).
btw, another Sum. word looks like a "de" inverted (also with similar Akkadian words):
ed [ASCEND] (595x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. ed3; |UD×U+U+U.DU| "to go up or down; to demolish; to scratch; to rage, be rabid" Akk. arādu; elû; naqāru; šegû
also a Hel root looks a bit like *kwel or *gwel (let's say) with a laryngeal instead of "kw" or "gw"; or to word like turkish gel "to come" (and all these Nostratic words):
ed [ASCEND] (595x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. ed3; |UD×U+U+U.DU| "to go up or down; to demolish; to scratch; to rage, be rabid"
Oh yes! very nice. I remember connecting it with this too : https://www.etymonline.com/word/out
Yes, I remember, too :) Do you think that a comparison with this root (with ud perhaps) is also possible? *h₁ey- "to go" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%81ey-
since this original "d" seems to be dropped; Halloran says: e3, ed2 [UD.DU]; i : to go out, emerge; to send forth; to issue; to lead or bring out; to rise; to consign; to rise; to sprout; to be or become visible; to appear (as a witness; to rave, become frenzied (the original final d only appears in marû conjugation by the time of written Sumerian) [ED2 archaic frequency: 12; concatenates 2 sign variants].
Maybe there is also a connection with Sum. du "to walk, to go, to come" etc, perhaps...
I think about Sum. ed "rabid" we had compared the IE ed "eat" (or I remember wrongly?)
As Foxvog says, the signs are de6(DU), túm(DU), lah4(DU over DU) or lah5(DU.DU); signs which seem almost to be the opposite of the one of ed3; |UD×U+U+U.DU|
I think about Sum. ed "rabid" we had compared the IE ed "eat" (or I remember wrongly?)
I also remember similar :) .
Foxvog says, the signs are de6(DU), túm(DU), lah4(DU over DU) or lah5(DU.DU); signs which seem almost to be the opposite of the one of ed3; |UD×U+U+U.DU|
Intriguing .
Maybe ed for "rabid" etc was connected to this root: Proto-IE: *wedh- (Gr w-)
I remembered also a comparison with Latin odium now... I think, Nirjhar, that at the future we'll read all these comparisons of ours with some big surprise! :-o
:D ;) About Sum hal "to divide, deal out, distribute; to perform an extispicy etc" I think it looks also to a Gr. verb, yet inverted, again like "lah", as in Lachesis (one of the three Fates): Λάχεσις (Lákhesis) , Lachesis, one of the three Fates; related to λαγχάνω (lankhánō), “obtain by lot”). λαγχάνω (lankhánō) seems like a strengthened "lah" (as "lakh" perhaps); with a nasal infix "lankh-".
which reminded me again δαλάγχα "dalankha" for sea :D ; so maybe there is indeed a connection to the other word "daxa" about "dividing" the lands, maybe :) ? maybe also to a notion of stretching again (Lachesis' work is about to stretching the thread spun of the life of each mortal) :\
:D ;) About Sum hal "to divide, deal out, distribute; to perform an extispicy etc" I think it looks also to a Gr. verb, yet inverted, again like "lah", as in Lachesis (one of the three Fates): Λάχεσις (Lákhesis) , Lachesis, one of the three Fates; related to λαγχάνω (lankhánō), “obtain by lot”). λαγχάνω (lankhánō) seems like a strengthened "lah" (as "lakh" perhaps); with a nasal infix "lankh-".
which reminded me again δαλάγχα "dalankha" for sea :D ; so maybe there is indeed a connection to the other word "daxa" about "dividing" the lands, maybe :) ? maybe also to a notion of stretching again (Lachesis' work is about to stretching the thread spun of the life of each mortal) :\
:D ;) About Sum hal "to divide, deal out, distribute; to perform an extispicy etc" I think it looks also to a Gr. verb, yet inverted, again like "lah", as in Lachesis (one of the three Fates): Λάχεσις (Lákhesis) , Lachesis, one of the three Fates; related to λαγχάνω (lankhánō), “obtain by lot”). λαγχάνω (lankhánō) seems like a strengthened "lah" (as "lakh" perhaps); with a nasal infix "lankh-".
Very nice! :) .
which reminded me again δαλάγχα "dalankha" for sea :D ; so maybe there is indeed a connection to the other word "daxa" about "dividing" the lands, maybe :) ? maybe also to a notion of stretching again (Lachesis' work is about to stretching the thread spun of the life of each mortal) :\
:) I remembered also, Nirjhar, the Semitic word compared to hal (at least the Hebrew); is nachalah "gift (1), give (1), hereditary (1), heritage (14), heritages (1), inheritance (197), inheritances (1), portion (1), possession (7)." (the numbers are about the meanings of this word found in the Bible; like Israel being the inheritance of God etc)
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5159.htm
like in Sum. hala [SHARE] (91x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. ha-la; hal "inheritance share" Akk. zittu
Yes, only that the Akkadian word is different :) On the other hand, if we are talking about "sea", this is the other usual "hal" root as in Gr. ἅλς hals "sea". From Proto-Indo-European *séh₂ls. Cognates include Sanskrit सलिल (salila), Old Armenian աղ (ał), Latin sāl, and Old English sealt (English salt).
which is supposed to be from the word for "salt"; maybe is just the opposite, though? (a word for "sea" gave to "salt" its meaning?)
Quite possible !. And as you know, since we can reconstruct word for sea , this suggest that our ancestors likely knew about sea i.e. resided near ocean or at least some big lake .
something which could connect perhaps these words the other word for "marsh" telma, maybe? (remember "dilmun"); also hals and thalassa is discussed for a long time to be connected somehow...
you mean like the horses of Poseidon, but Homer says Hellas is a place of beautiful women and a land breading many horses...
oh yes! :) .
something which could connect perhaps these words the other word for "marsh" telma, maybe? (remember "dilmun"); also hals and thalassa is discussed for a long time to be connected somehow...
I mean, I am trying a word like thalassa < talankh- (supposed also from *kwal > tal), connecting also "telma", but I'm missing the procedure from tel to a **sel (or **hel-), maybe through a kind of k' > ts > s? (I doubt so)... :/
I understand :).
Well, I think that all these were enough for today, Nirjhar; we are going to think about that tomorrow. Good night :)
Good morning, Nirjhar :D I made a few thoughts yesterday night about these words: first, about λαγχάνω (lankhánō) “obtain by lot”), Chantrain thinks about a connection with "long", which could fit good with a notion "stretched", as I think; "long" is from *dl̥h₁gʰós (non-ablauting) with a nasal infix (yet, it seems that the "d" is missing in this case)
Maybe *dl̥h₁gʰós (with the nasal infix) fits also (or even better) to the case of δαλάγχα dalankha (maybe from a *dl̥h₁(n)gʰa?), for "sea"; in this case, it could mean just "vast"; unless it meant (at least initially) some long mass of water (as a river or a long lake).
Maybe θάλασσα thalassa (or θάλαττα thalatta in Attic) "sea" is really connected to δαλάγχα dalankha, if we consider that the *ky, *kʰy, *kʷy, *kʷʰy clusters become *ťť (= ss) in Greek, and the d of dalankha, if a Makedonian word, is almost certainly a kind og "dh" = th in common Greek; thalassa then it could be from a *dhl̥h₁(n)kʰya? (dh instead of d and kʰ instead of gʰ?)
About a possible connection with Sarasvati, I've noticed something in her etymology and I'm asking your opinion. According to wikipedia:
"Sarasvatī is the devi feminine of an adjective sarasvant- (which occurs in the Rigveda[12] as the name of the keeper of the celestial waters), derived from Proto-Indo-Iranian *sáras-vat-ī (and earlier, PIE *séles-u̯n̥t-ih₂), meaning ‘marshy, full of pools’, or ‘she with many lakes’. The other term -vatī is the Sanskrit grammatical feminine possessor suffix.
Sanskrit sáras means ‘pool, pond or lake’; the feminine sarasī́ means ‘stagnant pool, swamp’.[13] Like its cognates Welsh hêl, heledd ‘river meadow’ and Greek ἕλος (hélos) ‘swamp’, the Rigvedic term refers mostly to stagnant waters, and Mayrhofer considers unlikely a connection with the root *sar- ‘run, flow’.[14]
Sarasvatī may be a cognate of Avestan Haraxvatī, perhaps[15] originally referring to Arədvī Sūrā Anāhitā (modern Ardwisur Anahid), the Zoroastrian mythological world river, which would point to a common Indo-Iranian myth of a cosmic or mystical Sáras-vat-ī river. In the younger Avesta, Haraxvatī is Arachosia, a region described to be rich in rivers, and its Old Persian cognate Harauvati, which gave its name to the present-day Hārūt River in Afghanistan, may have referred to the entire Helmand drainage basin (the center of Arachosia).
However, the Avestan xv generally cognates with Sanskrit "ksha". The usual cognate to "sva/sa" syllable of Sanskrit is "ngha/ŋh" syllable of Avestan, as generally found in cognate-pairs like Vivasvan-Vivanghat and Rasa-Rangha."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarasvati_River
I was wondering that, if in Avestan the "sva" is "ngha", then we could have, Sarasvati > Sara-sva-ti as Sara-ngha-ti; and this "Sarangha" seems oddly close to "dalankha", if we consider also the l/r in Indoiranian; so, we have to examin about this possible t(h) >? s; anyway, I think we have to deal roughly wirh the possibility of a t(h)al > sal outcome (which is almost like the problem of the difference between the tel-ma and he-los (< *selos) words for "swamp, marshes" in Greek.
A "solution" with an initial "ts" would require a kind of dialectical **tyel- for helos (instead of a tel like in tel-ma), like **tyel-os > **tsel-os > sel-os; or maybe, without a "ts" it could be just **twelos > selos; I'm afraid though it doesn't seem sound, concerning the saras word in Sanskrit ... not to say that I don't siscern any "long" notion in these words for "marsh"...
Of course, "long" is from one *del root of Pokorny; yet, there are also other *del roots, like *del-, dol-, delə- 'to split, divide'; and λαγχάνω lanchan, also δαλάγχα dalankha, could possibly belong to this root. https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0331
In Pokorny there is also a note, that this *del- is perhaps an extension of dā[i]- `to divide'; if it is so, then again there is a connection between daxa and dalanhka.
(or maybe a notion of "stretching" connects the both meanings of "long" and "divide"...)
Good morning Kyriakos! :D . first, about λαγχάνω (lankhánō) “obtain by lot”), Chantrain thinks about a connection with "long", which could fit good with a notion "stretched", as I think; "long" is from *dl̥h₁gʰós (non-ablauting) with a nasal infix (yet, it seems that the "d" is missing in this case)
Yes .
Maybe *dl̥h₁gʰós (with the nasal infix) fits also (or even better) to the case of δαλάγχα dalankha (maybe from a *dl̥h₁(n)gʰa?), for "sea"; in this case, it could mean just "vast"; unless it meant (at least initially) some long mass of water (as a river or a long lake).
Very interesting yes! :).
Maybe θάλασσα thalassa (or θάλαττα thalatta in Attic) "sea" is really connected to δαλάγχα dalankha, if we consider that the *ky, *kʰy, *kʷy, *kʷʰy clusters become *ťť (= ss) in Greek, and the d of dalankha, if a Makedonian word, is almost certainly a kind og "dh" = th in common Greek; thalassa then it could be from a *dhl̥h₁(n)kʰya? (dh instead of d and kʰ instead of gʰ?)
Yes nice suggestion too :).
I was wondering that, if in Avestan the "sva" is "ngha", then we could have, Sarasvati > Sara-sva-ti as Sara-ngha-ti; and this "Sarangha" seems oddly close to "dalankha", if we consider also the l/r in Indoiranian; so, we have to examin about this possible t(h) >? s; anyway, I think we have to deal roughly wirh the possibility of a t(h)al > sal outcome (which is almost like the problem of the difference between the tel-ma and he-los (< *selos) words for "swamp, marshes" in Greek.
I agree with you and the proposal is exciting IMO ! :) .
I'm afraid though it doesn't seem sound, concerning the saras word in Sanskrit ... not to say that I don't siscern any "long" notion in these words for "marsh"...
I agree .
In this case, the closest word I could find in Sanskrit to "thalassa" is talaka "pond":
talaka should be from tala : http://www.spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=tala&direct=se
But check Mayrhofer .
In Pokorny there is also a note, that this *del- is perhaps an extension of dā[i]- `to divide'; if it is so, then again there is a connection between daxa and dalanhka.
(or maybe a notion of "stretching" connects the both meanings of "long" and "divide"...)
Hi Nirjhar, I was wondering this morning about a possible connection of the "saras" of sarasvati with this Sum. word: sar [GARDEN] (4917x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, uncertain, unknown) wr. sar "garden; a unit of area; a unit of volume" Akk. mūšaru since Gr. ἕλος helos could mean also "meadow land": http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0073%3Aentry%3De(%2Flos (note also that an old etymology is given, from a wel-os > selos)
In fact, according to Hesychius, ἕλος means = σύμφυτος τόπος symphytos topos (lit: "a place of plants grown together); ἢ χεῖλος ποταμοῦ he kheilos potamou "or the bank of a river" n. καὶ ὁ τελματώδης τόπος kai ho telmatodes topos = "and the marshy place".
Remembering Sumerian hal "inheritence" etc, I think there could be a notion of "division" etc also in helos, perhaps the same as in νέμος nemos, which is according to Hesychius a σύνδενδρος τόπος syndendros topos "a place of trees grown together" (from νέμω nemo "to distribute, to dispense", if you remember): http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*n%3Aentry+group%3D12%3Aentry%3Dne%2Fmos
I was wondering about the similarity between Sum. musar [GARDEN] (15x: Old Babylonian) wr. mu2-sar "garden" Akk. mūšaru and musara [INSCRIPTION] (55x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. mu-sar-ra "inscription" Akk. musarû, making also a reference to Gr. δέλτος deltos "writting tablet" (which is close to "inscription" I think), with a doubtful etymology from this same *del root of Pokorny "to split, divide" https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0331
Also this supposed **sarankha- from dalankha :D reminded me Sum. "sanga" (priest, temple manager, scribe etc) and this comparison that Giacomo had made with sacer, sanctus, or sanctum etc, about which, in some other instance, I think talking about Gr. σηκός sekos, we have discussed for a meaning like a place being apart etc; having also in mind that Pokorny, in case of the *del (*dal) root, says about a possible derivation from the *da root; in that case, if sara- is connected also to *dal(a), then we must have also the dala of dalanga (let's say da-la-nga) connected, also, to sa-ra- > so we must have sa-ra-nga < **sa-/-/nga, so sa-nga, sanga :P
I mean also there are many interesting Sum. "sa" words (like "equal", "lexical entry", "advise", "half", "pay for", "reed bundle", "sinew, tendon, gut, string", most of which seem to be about sharing (like dividing), also the "sinew" etc looks like a stretching meaning. :)
About θάλασσα thalassa, sarasvati etc, perhaps it is interesting that in Doric the word is 'salassa' (σάλασσα): http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text;jsessionid=4D4E47EFAFE52822798766EC1BB375F5?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*s%3Aentry+group%3D1%3Aentry%3Dsa%2Flassa
Generally a dh > s (maybe it was a sh?) happens in Doric (like σιός sios instead of θεός theos "god"; I was thinking though about this archaic "palatal sound" you have proposed as existing in proto-IE.
About θάλασσα thalassa, sarasvati etc, perhaps it is interesting that in Doric the word is 'salassa' (σάλασσα):
Beautiful find! :D
Generally a dh > s (maybe it was a sh?) happens in Doric (like σιός sios instead of θεός theos "god"; I was thinking though about this archaic "palatal sound" you have proposed as existing in proto-IE.
About sar 'garden' there is also this Sum. word for 'orchard' 'kiri', if you remember; it is written with the logogramm of sar. There is also sar 'write' and Whittaker has connected it to (s)ker 'cut', if I remember well (there is also a sar = 'shave').
About musar "garden" Akk. mūšaru and musara "inscription" Akk. musarû; Hesychius gives a word διψάρα dipsara = δέλτος deltos (writing tablet), which I think is from dub and sar (or rather the iranian - elamitic version dippi / tippi, if I remember from Giacomo's posts, and sar = write); he says also διψάρα = διφθέρα diphthera, which is a leather (usually for writing) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%CE%B9%CF%86%CE%B8%CE%AD%CF%81%CE%B1 If this word is a borrowing (as it seems), maybe this ps / phth alteration indicates something about the quality of the consonant (of the -sar part), like perhaps s/th (< ky?).
Unless this ps/phth is working like a "TK" cluster here... (something like TTK > TPhTh diphthera > TPS dipsara perhaps? :/
I assume that both meanings of (mu)sar (also kiri) "garden" and (mu)sar(a) "inscription" indicate something like "a piece of (wet) land". Giacomo was thinking about *gher for kiri; btw, I 've seen a comparison of kiri (maybe also sar) with Proto-Turkic: *jẹr 'earth, land': http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2falt%2fturcet&text_number=++23&root=config
Some random thoughts Nirjhar: a thorn kluster like TK-ar could have given (with metathesis) a KTar (like in Greek) or else a KSar (like in Indic); with the k of KS dropped (as in Avestan sometimes) these types look like sar "write" or "shave" in Sumerian - while with "k" this ksar looks like ksura; also, the k dropped, like in Celtic, this ktar evolves to a tar ("cut" in Sumerian); while the TK-ar, T dropped as in Latin (look at Kloekhorst for all these transformations) may look like (s)ker "cut"; or else the TK-ar with a t>s (as we assumed in forms like Sparta etc from a *tpel like pura, perhaps) seems like *(s)ker "cut". So, maybe the "thorn clusters" pay some role in the creation of roots (I think).
Thanks :) I made today some other random thoughts :D perhaps we can try also a "thorn cluster" in case of saras :P I was thinking about the dǵh (TK) of *dǵh-uH "fish"; (or rather some similar root); Kloekhorst has said dǵh is from a root meaning "liquid", maybe in our case it has to do with some "muddy" waters (most probably salty, remember the connection with "salt"), like perhaps the root of the word "fish" ;) in that case a **TKar in some case (like in Avestan, with just TK > K > S) would be again a **sar (or rather sal>sar ), hence saras / helos < seles, while in some other case it could become **tal/tar ( like in Celtic: TK > KT > T), resembling to thal-assa / dal-ankha (< **dhal); the -ankh/-anch being the alternative extension of -sva-, perhaps...
Yes :) the full (let's say) "thorn cluster construction" in this case would be obviously (:D ) a word like ksara "water, flow, trickle, perishable, acid" etc (TKar> KSAR): http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=ksara&direct=se
The PS effect here is, like in Greek phthisis / psisis, for decrease, loss etc (also Sum. ibiza etc) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CE%B8%CE%AF%CF%83%CE%B9%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
Finally, maybe a PSar- could be related to Apsara: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apsara (maybe the a- is a prothetic value here, something like the i in ichthys "fish" perhaps). Also, one can imagines that even the "ap" root for "water" was derived from just this ap-sar- , maybe ...
Random thoughs continuing :D ;) so, we have the impression of some muddy, salty or acid, destructive (by floodings etc) waters here (most probably rivers; yet it could be also a kind of delta region, near the sea). ab exists also in Sumerian of course, as ab [SEA] (51x: Old Akkadian, Old Babylonian) wr. ab; a-ab-ta "sea" Akk. tâmtu; Halloran has also a word nab "ocean"; this, having also in mind the reading "a-ab-ta", could lead us perhaps to think about a word like "naphtha" (with a PT cluster); ultimately from an Iranian word for "wet", according to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naphtha So, maybe this supposed HaPSa-r could be also a kind of word like NaPTa-(r?) (reminds the nagar- /agar Hgar word again, for "city").
Random thoughs continuing :D ;) so, we have the impression of some muddy, salty or acid, destructive (by floodings etc) waters here (most probably rivers; yet it could be also a kind of delta region, near the sea). ab exists also in Sumerian of course, as ab [SEA]
I agree :).
maybe this supposed HaPSa-r could be also a kind of word like NaPTa-(r?) (reminds the nagar- /agar Hgar word again, for "city").
There is also Sum. naĝa [POTASH] (2521x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. naĝa; na-ma "potash, soap" Akk. uhūlu Also naĝa dub [RUB] (3x: Old Babylonian) wr. naĝa dub2 "to rub with soap"
And if you remember there is also this Gr. verb νάσσω nasso, Att. νάττω natto, fut. A.“νάξω naxo” Hsch.: aor. ἔναξα (v. infr.): pf. Pass. νένασμαι and νέναγμαι (v. infr.): 'press, squeeze close, stamp down' etc (stump down, like in a muddy ground).
maybe compared to naĝ; nasso (< nak-yo) looks like the meaning of Sum. "dub" (like in naĝa dub 'rub') compared with τύπτειν typtein etc (like typo-), or *(s)teib etc for "press, squeeze, stamp down, beat" etc (look at Giacomo's list about the cognates); this is compared also to the already mentioned δέφω depho or depso δέψω "to rub, to masturbate", and words like diphthera / dipsara etc for writing stuff like leather or a writing tablet; I'm trying to say there is again some nab-dab = nag/dag here (if δέφω is from degw- as it is assumed), through a lag/lab perhaps (remember lagab etc); λίψ lips means also "stream" in Greek 9remember, from leibo, "libation" etc... http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*l%3Aentry+group%3D46%3Aentry%3Dli%2Fy2
I'm trying to say there is again some nab-dab = nag/dag here (if δέφω is from degw- as it is assumed), through a lag/lab perhaps (remember lagab etc); λίψ lips means also "stream" in Greek 9remember, from leibo, "libation" etc...
Another thikg is about Gr. ξηρός (xērós) m (feminine ξηρᾱ́, neuter ξηρόν); first/second declension "dry΄the effects of being without water: parched, withered By extension: shrunken, paralyzed, lean;(voice) rough, hoarse; fasting; and its connection to kṣārá: From Proto-Indo-European *kseros. Cognates include Latin serescō, Old High German serawēn, Old Armenian չոր (čʿor), Middle Armenian չիր (čʿir) and perhaps Sanskrit क्षार (kṣārá, “sharp, acrid, pungent”). However, the lengthened vowel η where ε would normally be expected is problematic.
One root (and meaning) derives from some other, I think; I was thinking again about dipsa δίψα "thirst", as assumed from the same (or a similar) root, connected also to 'dryness', also διψηρός dipērós means "thirsty", which looks close to ξηρός (xērós) in form:
I meant διψηρός dipsērós "thirsty"; "dryness" and "wet" are the opposites; yet the notion of 'thirsty' is connected, I think, here mostly with the "destructive" effects of water (like flooding etc) - after all, you cannot drink salty (or muddy) water.
As, for example, in ὀξῠ́ς (oxús) m (feminine ὀξεῖᾰ, neuter ὀξύ); first/third declension also "sharp, pointed" etc (again like kṣārá, "sharp, acrid" etc, maybe also kṣaura "shaving" etc )
Possibly this root h₂eḱ- is derived from a similar process of a TK thorn cluster for "pointed" (like perhaps Iranian tig = sharp) - like TK-ar > (H)KS-ar > HK- > h₂eḱ-
both "wet" and "sharp" comes also for h₂eḱru "tear" (let's say "salty water"). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82e%E1%B8%B1ru
also with a d/l initial, like dáḱru: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/d%C3%A1%E1%B8%B1ru
Possibly this root h₂eḱ- is derived from a similar process of a TK thorn cluster for "pointed" (like perhaps Iranian tig = sharp) - like TK-ar > (H)KS-ar > HK- > h₂eḱ-
both "wet" and "sharp" comes also for h₂eḱru "tear" (let's say "salty water").
kṣara seems to be also connected to "letter, alphabet, syllable" etc in akṣara (probably from a-akṣara "imperishable")
अक्षर (akṣara) "imperishable, unalterablesyllable", also "the syllable om, letter, vowel, sound, word, a name of Brahma, water, final beatitude, religious austerity, a sacrifice (lexicography)"
It's interesting that diphthera / dipsara is also about writing (tablet) etc; maybe it is connected also with "letter"; yet "imperishable" in Greek is ἄφθιτος aphthtitos or ἄφθαρτος aphthartos.
For the notion "sharp"; obviously a KT type thorn cluster is Sum. kud "cut" (a KS type is also kizurra "sharp edge" etc like kṣura "razor"). Also, though its writing is "ku", the ePSD states "kud" for "fish"; again a type KT "thorn cluster" (like Gr. ikhthus). About the PS for "fish"; in Greek there is opson 'relish'which is usually fish; the etymology it is not known, whether it meant initially just fish or generally 'relish'; anyway "a diminutive of opson, opsarion (ὀψάριον), provides the modern Greek word for fish: psari (ψάρι)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opson
Also a "thorn" cluster TK could be found in tukul [WEAPON] (1370x: Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. [ĝeš]tukul; tukul "stick; weapon" Akk. kakku. According to Whittaler, compared to an IE tuk-lo < *(s)teu
I think that in Greek a KS Indic-like cluster in this case for TuK-lo could be ξύλον xylon ξῠ́λον: (xúlon) n (genitive ξῠ́λου); second declension (mostly in plural) cut wood, timber; piece of wood, log, beam, post; cudgel, club, stick; an instrument of punishment: wooden collar, stocks, gallows; bench, table; tree; blockhead; a measure of length: 3 or 2⅔ cubits.
"Possibly cognate with Lithuanian šùlas (“post, pole, stave”), Russian шу́ло (šúlo, “garden-pole”), Serbo-Croatian šȗlj (“block”), in which case it is from a Proto-Indo-European *kseulo-. Compare also Old High German sūl (“style, pole”), Gothic 𐍃𐌰𐌿𐌻𐍃 (sauls, “pillar”)."
It's interesting that diphthera / dipsara is also about writing (tablet) etc; maybe it is connected also with "letter"; yet "imperishable" in Greek is ἄφθιτος aphthtitos or ἄφθαρτος aphthartos.
Nice Kyriakos :) .
Greek there is opson 'relish'which is usually fish; the etymology it is not known, whether it meant initially just fish or generally 'relish'; anyway "a diminutive of opson, opsarion (ὀψάριον), provides the modern Greek word for fish: psari (ψάρι)"
Very interesting.
I think that in Greek a KS Indic-like cluster in this case for TuK-lo could be ξύλον xylon ξῠ́λον: (xúlon) n (genitive ξῠ́λου); second declension (mostly in plural) cut wood, timber; piece of wood, log, beam, post; cudgel, club, stick; an instrument of punishment: wooden collar, stocks, gallows; bench, table; tree; blockhead; a measure of length: 3 or 2⅔ cubits.
I agree :) .
again a *kseulo looks odd as a Proto-IE root (like *kseros), I think.
Hi Nirjhar, Gr. a-phthartos "unperishable" is from φθείρω (phtheírō) "to destroy, to ruin, to spoil"(Cf. Skt. ksárati 'flow', later 'wane, perish'). From Proto-Indo-European *dʰgʷʰer- (“flow, diverge; perish”) via the middle form φθείρομαι (phtheíromai, “to be destroyed, perish”) with new active meaning "destroy". Cognate to Sanskrit क्षरति (kṣárati, “flows, diverges; disappears”), Avestan γžaraiti (γžaraiti, “flows, streams”). http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=fqei/rw
It's the same root of "phthisis",compared to Sum. ibiza (but with another ending -er) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CE%B8%CE%AF%CF%83%CE%B9%CF%82
I was wondering if there could be some comparable Sum. word with a "TKr" structure (like dʰgʷʰer-); one potential candidate is "tukur", with some meanings of destruction; not at all sure about this, yet I think this word must include a "thorn cluster" (like tuku, for example):
Halloran includes also a meaning "silence" for Sum. "tukur". If this word does include the "thorn cluste" mentioned above, then I think it could fit to the opposite meaning of अक्षर (akṣara, a-kṣara) "imperishable", "letter, vowel, sound, word"; in this case tukur could mean "destruction of sounds", then "silence".
In this case, if διψάρα dipsara / διφθέρα diphthera is from a kind of T-TK-r type of the above root of kṣára and φθείρω phtheiro (like also δίψα dipsa "thirst"), then it could mean perhaps something "letters pressed down or crushed", meaning "sounds mute, silent".
About the meaning "silence" maybe there is a connection with Latin taceo "(intransitive) I am silent, say nothing, hold my tongue" From Proto-Italic *takēō, possibly from Proto-Indo-European *tak- or *tHk-. Akin to Gothic(þahan), Old Norse þegja (Danish tie and Icelandic þegja), Old High German dagen.
I was wondering if there could be some comparable Sum. word with a "TKr" structure (like dʰgʷʰer-); one potential candidate is "tukur", with some meanings of destruction; not at all sure about this, yet I think this word must include a "thorn cluster" (like tuku, for example):
Good suggestion! :) .
Nostratic here; morphologically I think it fits; semantically it lacks the "flow" meaning, connected though to a notion of "crush":
Yeah :) . If this word does include the "thorn cluste" mentioned above, then I think it could fit to the opposite meaning of अक्षर (akṣara, a-kṣara) "imperishable", "letter, vowel, sound, word"; in this case tukur could mean "destruction of sounds", then "silence"
:D ! .
In this case, if διψάρα dipsara / διφθέρα diphthera is from a kind of T-TK-r type of the above root of kṣára and φθείρω phtheiro (like also δίψα dipsa "thirst"), then it could mean perhaps something "letters pressed down or crushed", meaning "sounds mute, silent". Beautiful! :) .
About the meaning "silence" maybe there is a connection with Latin taceo "(intransitive) I am silent, say nothing, hold my tongue" From Proto-Italic *takēō, possibly from Proto-Indo-European *tak- or *tHk-. Akin to Gothic(þahan), Old Norse þegja (Danish tie and Icelandic þegja), Old High German dagen.
Good morning, Nirjhar, If "ibiza" is from the PS effect of the same "thorn cluster" TK of "tuku-r", I think that the PT one (like the φθ- phth- in φθείρω phtheiro) could be found perhaps in this Sum. word: pad [BREAK] (56x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. pad "to break (into bits)" Akk. kasāpu Or, according to Halloran (ed. 2006): pad, paðx: n., bite, small repast (regularly followed by ra2 and da; cf., bur and buru2) (sprout + repetitive processing) [? PAD archaic frequency: 38; concatenation of 2 sign variants]. v., to break off or into pieces.
This meaning of pad as "small repast" indicates a similarity with the root of "food", I think, which is ultimately, and interestingly, peh₂- "to protect"; like in पाति (pā́ti) (cl.2 P. root √pā); there is also a Gr. πατέομαι pateomai or πάσσομαι passomai "to eat":
(Pokorny's root pā- : pə- und pā-t- : pə-t-) https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1445
or ruther peh₂- "to graze", like in "panis": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/panis "Of uncertain origin. Usually explained as a derivation of Proto-Indo-European *peh₂- (“to graze”), via earlier *pāstnis (compare pāstillus (“cake, pastille”) and supine pāstum)."
I think that we have a kind of derivation like this: "break into pieces / gnaw, eat" - "graze / pasture" - "protecting (the pasture)".
Of course the KT evolvement of the "thorn cluster" about "crush / break" etc is Sum. kud [CUT](/kudr/) (1111x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Ebla, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium, unknown) wr. kud; gur5 "to break off, deduct; to separate, cut off; to cut; to incise; to decide; to make clear" Akk. harāşu; napādu; parāsu; harāşu; parāsu; harāşu
btw, there is a Gr. verb πατάσσω (patássō): "I knock, beat; (with accusative) I strike; I slaughter, kill; I afflic"; with no clear etymology (probably from "paták-yō").
f "ibiza" is from the PS effect of the same "thorn cluster" TK of "tuku-r", I think that the PT one (like the φθ- phth- in φθείρω phtheiro) could be found perhaps in this Sum. word
Very interesting .
I think that we have a kind of derivation like this: "break into pieces / gnaw, eat" - "graze / pasture" - "protecting (the pasture)".
A very nice proposal ! :) .
Of course the KT evolvement of the "thorn cluster" about "crush / break" etc is Sum. kud [CUT](/kudr/) (1111x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Ebla, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium, unknown) wr. kud; gur5 "to break off, deduct; to separate,
Yes :) .
btw, there is a Gr. verb πατάσσω (patássō): "I knock, beat; (with accusative) I strike; I slaughter, kill; I afflic"; with no clear etymology (probably from "paták-yō").
Hi Nirjhar, another similar Greek verb is παίω (paíō) "I strike, hit; I strike one thing against another; I drive away; (sexual intercourse) quotations; (figuratively) I quench my thirst;(intransitive) I strike against or upon; I devour" From Proto-Indo-European *pēu-, *pyu-, *pū- (“to hit; to cut”). Cognates include Latin paviō. From Proto-Indo-European *paw- (“strike”).
There is a question about its connection with παύω (paúō) "to make to cease, to stop" etc (like in "pause") From Proto-Indo-European *peh₂w-. Cognate with Old Armenian հաւ (haw, “beginning”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%B1%CF%8D%CF%89
becouse of the meanings "hit, cut etc" and "stop" (something like sil / silig in Sumerian); btw, this *peh₂w- is also the root of "small" etc ("hit-cut" < "pieces" > "small"), like in "few" or Lat. paurus, παῖς (paîs) / παῦς (paûs) "child": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-Euopean/peh%E2%82%82w-
For "crush, cut, hit" etc this was the PT part of a PT-R root (from TKR); now, the TR part of a PT-R root could be of course *ter "young, tender, weak" etc: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/ter-
Also, in case of a Pth-Th-R, perhaps Gr. θραύω (thraúō) "I crush, break (in pieces), shatter" etc could fit also, I think. http://biblehub.com/greek/2352.htm
I remembered Whittaker now; since there is also another Sum. tukur "heavy, important", which is close to "dugud" with the same meaning (maybe these are just two alternative spellings of the same root):
If the spelling as (a)d/t-gu-ud is correct (so something like (a)TK-T and the final t (or r like in tukur) can be vocalized to 's', as Whittaker seems to suggest, maybe it is comparable to a Gr. word ἄχθος achthos "burden" (from **aTKs > **aKTs formation); like in σεισάχθεια seisachtheia "relief (lit. shaking") of burdens"; ἄχθος achthos looks like normal Greek but of not established etymology. Maybe the notions of "destructive" and "heavy, important" are connected.
About the KS formation of a possible "thorn cluster" here, there is also a Gr. word ᾰ̓́ξῐος (áxios) m (feminine ᾰ̓ξῐ́ᾱ, neuter ᾰ̓́ξῐον); first/second declension "counterbalancing, weighing as much as, of like value; worthy, fit"; it could fit also to an (a)TKr/t > (a)TKs, aKSs indic-like spelling, I think:
Etymology: From ἄγω (ágō) + -τιος (-tios), with the verb in the sense "draw down (in the scale)", hence "weigh, import". That could lead us to think many things about the derivation of h₂eǵ root ;)
Btw, the sign of dugud "heavy etc" is also close to the sign for "black" (MI). http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/dcclt/signlists/signlists/
Gr. word ἄχθος achthos "burden" (from **aTKs > **aKTs formation); like in σεισάχθεια seisachtheia "relief (lit. shaking") of burdens"; ἄχθος achthos looks like normal Greek but of not established etymology. Maybe the notions of "destructive" and "heavy, important" are connected.
About the KS formation of a possible "thorn cluster" here, there is also a Gr. word ᾰ̓́ξῐος (áxios) m (feminine ᾰ̓ξῐ́ᾱ, neuter ᾰ̓́ξῐον); first/second declension "counterbalancing, weighing as much as, of like value; worthy, fit"; it could fit also to an (a)TKr/t > (a)TKs, aKSs indic-like spelling, I think:
Again a very interesting suggestion! :) .
That could lead us to think many things about the derivation of h₂eǵ root ;)
;) .
Btw, the sign of dugud "heavy etc" is also close to the sign for "black" (MI)
I would dare to say also that the PS formations of the TK cluster in "tukur" could be found in some of the peš words, like peš = "to slice", or even peš = "mouse"; maybe also peš = "thick, heavy" etc.
Also kišib for "mouse" could be a possible KS formation, like for example "the one which gnaws", "the one which destroys"; morphologically like kṣáp-: http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=ksap&direct=se
which, concerning at least the meaning "night" (here the connection to "black", concerning the logogramm of "dugud"; like "the one which gnaws, crushes, destroys the light" or "the one which falls like a heavy burden" perhaps?), has a root *kʷsep- - which is again strange for a "proto-indoeuropean" one ;)
Proto-IE: *kʷsep- Meaning: darkness, dark Hittite: ispant- c. 'Nacht' (Tischler 409ff) Old Indian: kṣáp- (gen. kṣapáḥ), kṣapā́ f. `night' Avestan: xšap- 'Dunkelheit' Old Greek: pséphas, pséphos n. `Dunkel, Finsternis', psepharó- `dunkel, finster, wolkig'
btw the Greek reflexes of this root about "darkness", "night" etc is ψέφας psephas, ψέφος psephos; yet there are some words like κνέφας knephas or γνόφος gnophos with the same meaning, which seem to be perhaps of some *ken root (like "rub" etc); the ending "-ph" looks though like the one of νέφος nephos "cloud" (btw **nébʰos is another curious proto-root: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BD%CE%AD%CF%86%CE%BF%CF%82
The -p in kṣap- reminds the ending of a Gr. word (like τύπτω typto "hit"); it's κτύπος ktypos "crash, bang, din"; the verb is κτυπέω ktypeo (a kind of TK-P ? cluster, that could fit to this KS-P Sanskrit one)
btw, another word in Greek ψόφος psophos, meaning "any inarticulate sound, a sound, noise", is another with a "destroyed sound" meaning, I think; a kind of PSPh cluster, corresponding to a KSP.
I remembered now Sum. kišib [SEAL] (17468x: ED IIIb, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. kišib3; kišib; na4kišib "cylinder seal, sealed tablet" Akk. kunukku again having to do, I think, with some tablet, like dipsara; it reminds क्षिप् kṣip "finger" (having also to do with meanings about "destruction", "night" etc, but mainly about "throwing"); reminds also Sum. kišib [HAND] (11x: Old Babylonian) wr. kišib-la2; kišib "hand, wrist" Akk. rittu http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=kSip&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
Obviously we could say the same things said above for kṣap-.
"kišib" reminded me also the word ξιφος xiphos "sword" in Greek, if you remember, or "iron hand" according Hesychius, another "ksi" Greek word ;)
As for the meaning "seal" the word σφραγίς sphragis "seal" in Greek is connected, if you remember, by some with a word σφάραγος spharagos, meaning again ψόφος "psophos" anarticulate noise, also throat, according to Hesychius.
Again about áxios "counterbalancing, weighing as much as, of like value; worthy, fit" and the comparison with dugud "heavy, important" written with a logogramm similar to "night"; it reminded me the river Axios or Vardar, which, according to some view took its name from a root similar to Persian *axšaina- (compare Ossetian ӕхсин (æxsin)). May be cognate with English ash.
Though others say it's from a word ἄξος axos meaning forest, according to Hesychius: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Da)%2Fcos
Other persian loanwords in Greek: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/greece-xi-xii
I would dare to say also that the PS formations of the TK cluster in "tukur" could be found in some of the peš words, like peš = "to slice", or even peš = "mouse"; maybe also peš = "thick, heavy" etc.
:D kišib for "mouse" could be a possible KS formation, like for example "the one which gnaws", "the one which destroys"; morphologically like kṣáp-: http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=ksap&direct=se
which, concerning at least the meaning "night" (here the connection to "black", concerning the logogramm of "dugud"; like "the one which gnaws, crushes, destroys the light" or "the one which falls like a heavy burden" perhaps?), has a root *kʷsep- - which is again strange for a "proto-indoeuropean" one ;)
Proto-IE: *kʷsep- Meaning: darkness, dark
Yes I agree ! :) . The -p in kṣap- reminds the ending of a Gr. word (like τύπτω typto "hit"); it's κτύπος ktypos "crash, bang, din"; the verb is κτυπέω ktypeo (a kind of TK-P ? cluster, that could fit to this KS-P Sanskrit one) Yes .
btw, another word in Greek ψόφος psophos, meaning "any inarticulate sound, a sound, noise", is another with a "destroyed sound" meaning, I think; a kind of PSPh cluster, corresponding to a KSP.
Yes .
I think, with some tablet, like dipsara; it reminds क्षिप् kṣip "finger" (having also to do with meanings about "destruction", "night" etc, but mainly about "throwing"); reminds also Sum. kišib [HAND] (11x: Old Babylonian) wr. kišib-la2; kišib "hand, wrist" Akk. rittu http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=kSip&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
Obviously we could say the same things said above for kṣap-.
Yes I agree ! :).
As for the meaning "seal" the word σφραγίς sphragis "seal" in Greek is connected, if you remember, by some with a word σφάραγος spharagos, meaning again ψόφος "psophos" anarticulate noise, also throat, according to Hesychius.
Hi Nirjhar, About the Gr. word for "finger" δάκτυλος dáktulos (daktylos) : "Uncertain. Possibly related to Latin digitus. Probably Pre-Greek. Note Boeotian δακκύλιος (dakkúlios). The sense "date" is probably a folk-etymological alteration of a word from a Semitic source such as دَقَل (daqal, “variety of date palm”) or דֶּקֶל (deqel, “date palm”)."
According to the lexicon, the form dakkúlios indicates a "tk" formation again, like *datkulios. In my opinion, the da- excluded, this tkul- seems to be very close to Sum. tukul "stick; weapon" Akk. kakku" (or the *tuk-los of Whittaker) maybe like in Sum. "si" for "finger" which means also "horn" (also "antenna" in Halloran).
About the Gr. word for "finger" δάκτυλος dáktulos (daktylos) : "Uncertain. Possibly related to Latin digitus. Probably Pre-Greek. Note Boeotian δακκύλιος (dakkúlios). The sense "date" is probably a folk-etymological alteration of a word from a Semitic source such as دَقَل (daqal, “variety of date palm”) or דֶּקֶל (deqel, “date palm”)." Yup.
this tkul- seems to be very close to Sum. tukul "stick; weapon" Akk. kakku" (or the *tuk-los of Whittaker) maybe like in Sum. "si" for "finger" which means also "horn" (also "antenna" in Halloran).
:D then maybe this is a "Grecian" formation of the same "thorn cluster"; as ξυλον xulon is an Indic one :P ; maybe also this initial δα- da- is from some **gwa (like perhaps δίψα dipsa - di < gwi-; maybe also dipsara? - there is aSum. "da" = "writing board"...); then Akkadian kakku could be from the same "thorn cluster" (but as K-KK).
Assuming a "destructive" meaning for "finger" (as also for "night"), I think that this -ap or -ip (in kṣap / kṣip) ending reminds me of the -ap- in δάπτω and Lat. daps, we have discusse already: "From Proto-Indo-European *dh₂ps (“portion, sacrificial meal”). Cognate with Ancient Greek δαπάνη (dapánē, “expenditure”), δάπτω (dáptō, “I devour”), Old Armenian տաւն (tawn, “feast”), Old Norse tafn (“sacrifice”). Akin to damnum (“loss, expense”).
Yeah, and this "ap" reminds again "water" (and "flowing", "perishable", "destruction" and such things ...) I remember now that Mayrhofer was wondering if this ap for water is connected to the root of Lat. "acqua" "from Proto-Italic *akʷā, from Proto-Indo-European *h₂ekʷeh₂" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/acqua
There is also a *h₁egʷʰ- "drink"; according to wikipedia though "The roots *h₂ep- (“(body of) water”) and *h₁egʷʰ- (“drink”) are probably unrelated (to *h₂ekʷeh₂)." https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82%C3%A9k%CA%B7eh%E2%82%82
If this ap though (in water, or in daps, maybe, is connected to acqu-a, then we could have here also a p < kʷ.
Yeah, and this "ap" reminds again "water" (and "flowing", "perishable", "destruction" and such things ...)
Yes! :) .
I remember now that Mayrhofer was wondering if this ap for water is connected to the root of Lat. "acqua" "from Proto-Italic *akʷā, from Proto-Indo-European *h₂ekʷeh₂" Yes it has sense.
If this ap though (in water, or in daps, maybe, is connected to acqu-a, then we could have here also a p < kʷ.
maybe also the supposed gʷa > da in daktylos is just a kind of the kʷa-n-kʷe that Giacomo has proposed for "five", meaning something like "five (little) sticks", like **gʷa-tkul-oi" > da-tkul-oi > daktyloi δάκτυλοι = "(5) sticks" = "fingers", ten δάκτυλος daktylos for "1 finger".
like the gʷam / dam as Dziebel has propoede fot damaris etc :D now, one senses that the word στῦλος (stûlos / stylos) "pillar, column, support; wooden pole; stile" could be somehow connected to "tukul" or maybe tutkul? > then tstul- > stul-? something like that...) ; even in its meaning, as "the stick one uses to write on a writing tablet" :p
About kṣap "night" there is also the question of the comparison with this set of words: ἕσπερος (hésperos) m, f (neuter ἕσπερον); second declension "of or at evening" (masculine substantive) evening; (masculine substantive)" the evening star, Venus" (shortened form of ἕσπερος ἀστήρ (hésperos astḗr)); "western": From *ϝέσπερος (*wésperos), from Proto-Indo-European *wek(ʷ)speros. Cognates include Latin vesper, Old Armenian գիշեր (gišer) and Old Church Slavonic вєчєръ (večerŭ). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%95%CF%83%CF%80%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
ἑσπέρα (hespéra) f (genitive ἑσπέρᾱς); first declension "evening; the west" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%91%CF%83%CF%80%CE%AD%CF%81%CE%B1#Ancient_Greek
Also, from the Hittite dictionary: 14.42 — NIGHT — Hitt. ispant- (and deified DIspant-, DIspanzasepa-), the normal term for ‘night’ (GE6[.KAM]), is thought to reflect *(k)spn̥t- or *(k)spon-t-, comparable with Skt. kṣap-, Av., OPers. xšap-, NPers. šab (*ksep-), Av. xšapar-, xšapan-, xšafn- (*ks[e]pr-/n-), and possibly also Lat. vesper, Gk. ἑσπέρα, W. ucher, OCS večerŭ, Arm. gišer ‘night, evening’ (e.g. Götze - Pedersen, MS 60; Goetze, Lg. 30 [1954]: 357; E. P. Hamp, Revue des études arméniennes N.S. 3 [1966]: 13.15). While agreement on the root is general, further formational details are in dispute; cf. P 431-35, T 409-11 and refs.
one senses that the word στῦλος (stûlos / stylos) "pillar, column, support; wooden pole; stile" could be somehow connected to "tukul" or maybe tutkul? > then tstul- > stul-? something like that...) ; even in its meaning, as "the stick one uses to write on a writing tablet" :p
Possible ! :) .
About kṣap "night" there is also the question of the comparison with this set of words:
About akṣara as "sacrifice" I was wondering also if it could be connected somehow to this Sum. word: siškur [PRAYER] (1192x: Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. siškur2; siškur "prayer; blessing; offering, sacrifice, rites; to pour (a libation), sacrifice; to intercede" Akk. karābu; naqû; nīqu siškur reminds of "tukur" (maybe as TTkur).
Here is also क्षिपति (kṣipáti) (root क्षिप्, class 6 P) "to throw, to fling; to cast off; to move hastily; to pass over": From Proto-Indo-European *kswipeti (“to shake, to cast off”). Cognates include English sweep, swoop and Ukrainian шибати (šybaty). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%95%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B7%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF
Root: *ksweybʰ- or *kʷsweybʰ- or *kʷseybʰ- "to move swiftly, make a swift movement; to swing, shake, to be swinging; to whip, cast, throw": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/ksweyb%CA%B0-
About the "shake" part, I'm almost sure there is a connection with the "thorn cluster" of Sumerian tuku [ROCK] (33x: Old Babylonian) wr. tuku4; tu-ku "to rock, shift" Akk. nâšu
I think that in Edzard's Grammar it is found also as "tutk": so, "shake" like a weapon or stick etc, like tukul; also destructive as tukur... ;)
Here (about the meaning "swift") is a "Pre-Greek" word: αἶψα haipsa Grammatical information: adv. Meaning: `quickly, suddenly' (Il.) Derivatives: αἰψηρός haipseros `quick' (Il.) Origin: PG [a word of Pre-Greek origin] Etymology: Sommer IF 11, 243 connected the word with αἰπύς (`steep', q.v.) as *αἰπ-σ-α; rather with Fur. 158 as a substr. word with lab. \/ ψ. Frisk added: "Hierher wohl auch αἴφνης aus *αἰπ-σ-νᾱ-ς." Fur. further connects ἐξαίφνης. ἐξαπίνης, ἄφαρ, ἄφνω; see Beekes, Pre-Greek.
"tutk" on page 76 (maru) https://ia601905.us.archive.org/0/items/SumerianGrammarhdo/SumerianGrammar.pdf
I think that a part of this word (as a root) is found in Gr. σείω (seíō) "I shake, I agitate" etc From Proto-Indo-European *tweys-. Cognates include Sanskrit त्वेषति (tveṣati), Avestan (θvayah, “fright, fear”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CE%B5%CE%AF%CF%89 like in σεισμός seismos "shaking, earthquake" (also we found it is σεισάχθεια seisachtheia. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CE%B5%CE%B9%CF%83%CE%BC%CF%8C%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
I think that a part of this word (as a root) is found in Gr. σείω (seíō) "I shake, I agitate" etc From Proto-Indo-European *tweys-. Cognates include Sanskrit त्वेषति (tveṣati), Avestan (θvayah, “fright, fear”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CE%B5%CE%AF%CF%89 like in σεισμός seismos "shaking, earthquake" (also we found it is σεισάχθεια seisachtheia.
btw the word for "throwing" in Greek is ῥίπτω (rhiptō < rhip-yō )"to throw, cast, hurl" etc - having a -p ending like kṣip has (something like WRP/HRP compared to KSP): http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dr(i%2Fptw
From Proto-Indo-European *wreyp- or *wriHp-, from *wer- (“to turn”).[1] like in Germ. werfen "throw" or in English "warp":
So there is a notion of "turning" / "moving/flowing" ;) The Sum. compsarison, if you rember, was to ri "to lay down, cast, place; to set in place, imbue; to lean on; to impose; to throw down; to release, let go; to walk along; to pour out; to lead away" (in maru is rig - most brobably the ending p of rhip- is a kw in this case, too...)
So there is a notion of "turning" / "moving/flowing" ;)
True :) .
The Sum. compsarison, if you rember, was to ri "to lay down, cast, place; to set in place, imbue; to lean on; to impose; to throw down; to release, let go; to walk along; to pour out; to lead away" (in maru is rig - most brobably the ending p of rhip- is a kw in this case, too...)
The Emesal word for dugud is "zebed", if you remember; it reminded me the name of Zebedee (from the Bible) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebedee having to do with" bestowing, giving" but also with a meaning of "abundant".
it reminds me also this word sphAvayati "swell, increase, strenghthen, fatten, increase"
I am wondering now if kṣap "night" (as "dark") is comparable to the name of Σαπφώ Sapphō (or Ψάπφω Psapphō or Ψάπφα Psappha, in Aeolic) the poetess (meaning perhaps the "dark one"; it was said that her appearance was "small and dark". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sappho
About the connection dugud / tukur with peš, which we had already compared to Skrt. बहु (bahú) "much, many, frequent, abundant, numerous, great or considerable in quantity" From Proto-Indo-European *bʰn̥ǵʰús (“thick”). Cognate with Avestan (bązah) and Ancient Greek παχύς (pakhús, “thick, large”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AC%E0%A4%B9%E0%A5%81#Sanskrit
As you saw above Whittaker's comparison for dugud / tukur was with a *tn̥gʰús "heavy" (I think the root of "thick" is meant here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/t%C3%A9gus a thorn cluster (TK < **KʷKʷ), which gave a kind of PK in Greek and Sanskrit (not very normal transformations for these languases, like KT or KS for example) and a PS in Avestan (where we would expect a S); so, in this case it didn't work as an actual thorn cluster; perhaps it was just a gʷ>d (kʷ>t) and gʷ>b (kʷ>p) process for the formation of these two similar roots. Or perhaps there is another kind of explanation and I' saying random things again :)
So, it seems as if the "thorn cluster" does work (?) in the case of tukur, but not exactly (?) in dugud; yet, there is a derivation of roots here, too. btw, the -gud part of dugud reminds all these other words we were talking about in Giacomo's posts, like gud = bull, gud = warrior, hero etc.
It seems that the root used by Whittaker for "dugud" wasn't that of "thick", but this one: *tengh- English meaning to extend, stretch, span German meaning `ziehen, dehnen, spannen' Grammatical comments General comments ar. *thengh-, doch wohl trotzdem Erweiterung von ten-1 ds. Derivatives tn̥ghu- `schwer' Material Av. ϑang- (ϑanjasā̊ntē, ϑanjayentē, Partiz. ϑaxta-) `ziehen, Bogen spannen'; aber ϑanvarə, Abl. ϑanvanāt̲ `Bogen (als Schußwaffe)' nach Mayrhofer durch Kontamination mit *danvan- (= ai. dhánvan-, oben S. 234) entstanden; osset. t`ịnjịn `ausdehnen'; arm. t`anjr, Gen. t`anju `dicht, dick' (*tn̥ghi̯u-); lat. tēmō, -ōnis m. `Deichsel' (*tenksmō); aksl. *tęgnǫti `ziehen', rastęgǫ, rastęšti `distrahere', russ. tugój `straff, fest, stark, schwer', poln. tęgi ds., aksl. tǫga `συνοχή, περίστασις', slov. tǫ́ga `Trägheit, Schwermut' usw.; die Bed. `schwer' auch in slav. *tęgъkъ: aksl. otęgъčiti `βαρεῖν', tęžьkъ `βαρύς', tęgostь `βάρος', tęgota ds. usw.; auch aksl. istęsklъ `emaceratus, tabidus', istęsknǫti `tabescere' mit sk-Suffix; hierher aksl. tęža `Rechtsstreit'; lit. tingùs `träge' (= slav. *tęgъ in tęgostь usw., und: aisl. þungr), tìngiu, tingė́ti `träge, unlustig sein', tìng-stu, -au, -ti `träge werden'; aisl. þungr `schwer', þunge m. `Bürde, Last', þyngia `beschweren', þyngð `Unannehmlichkeit, Verlegenheit', þyngsl `Kummer, Bedrängnis'; ahd. dīhsala, ags. þīxl, aisl. þīsl `Deichsel' (urgerm. *þenχslō eig. `Zugstange'); toch. A täṅk-, В tank- `hindern'. References WP. I 726 f., WH. II. 658, Trautmann 318, Vasmer 3, 166. See also Pages 1067
Here is also an interesting article about the IE roots meaning "dense":
having to do with" bestowing, giving" but also with a meaning of "abundant".
it reminds me also this word sphAvayati "swell, increase, strenghthen, fatten, increase"
Remembering also σφυδάω sphudaō and σφυδόω sphudoō "to be in full vigour or health" in Greek:
Looks good they :) .
I am wondering now if kṣap "night" (as "dark") is comparable to the name of Σαπφώ Sapphō (or Ψάπφω Psapphō or Ψάπφα Psappha, in Aeolic) the poetess (meaning perhaps the "dark one"; it was said that her appearance was "small and dark".
Yes,bright suggestion ! :) .
(TK < **KʷKʷ), which gave a kind of PK in Greek and Sanskrit (not very normal transformations for these languases, like KT or KS for example) and a PS in Avestan (where we would expect a S); so, in this case it didn't work as an actual thorn cluster; perhaps it was just a gʷ>d (kʷ>t) and gʷ>b (kʷ>p) process for the formation of these two similar roots.
Very interesting again :) .
, the -gud part of dugud reminds all these other words we were talking about in Giacomo's posts, like gud = bull, gud = warrior, hero etc.
Yeah :D .
Here is also an interesting article about the IE roots meaning "dense":
Hi Nirjhar, A zero grade *d(h)bh-n̥gh-u- for bahu etc, as it is proposed in this article, seems a bit odd; yet the proposed *h2mgh-u- ‘narrow’ (Skr.amhú-, Goth. aggwus ‘narrow’, Gr.αυχήν aukhen ‘neck’ fits good, I think, to Sum. gu [NECK] (753x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. gu2 "bank, side; neck" Akk. ahu "arm, side, bank"; kišādu "neck; bank"; tikku "neck"; especially the Akkadian ahu seems quite close...
A labiovelar in the g of dugud ( > zebed in Emesal, g/b) seems to fit to the IE root for "cattle, ox, cow" (gud in Sumerian) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/g%CA%B7%E1%B9%93ws but not to the comparison with *d(h)bh-n̥gh-u- (gh/gw?) :/ (unless we are missing something here ...)
Meanwhile, in Greek there is not only παχύς pakhys "fat" etc but also ταχύς takhys "fast", which is supposed to be of one of these roots mentioned in this article (*dʰengʰ/ dhn̥gh-): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CE%B1%CF%87%CF%8D%CF%82#Ancient_Greek Proto-Indo-European *dʰn̥gʰ-, zero-grade of *dʰengʰ-.
It seems though that there are some problems with θᾱ́σσων (thā́ssōn) m, f (neuter θᾶσσον), the comparative degree of ταχύς ("faster"), of no clear etymology: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B8%CE%AC%CF%83%CF%83%CF%89%CE%BD
So this etymology of ταχύς is in doubt; Starostin does not include it in his comparisons; the root also is different, *(a)denǝgh- "to reach, to seize, to have time"; I've noticed that it includes a word ὀδάξ odax `with the teeth, to clench ones teeth' etc http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2Fdata%2Fie%2Fpiet&text_number=1887&root=config
Supposed by some as being of pre-Hellenic origin again. ;) https://translate.academic.ru/%E1%BD%80%CE%B4%CE%AC%CE%BE/el/xx/
Since this word is about "biting, gnawing, scratching" and such destructive things, it could match perhaps to a dugud / tukur equation, even in "gnawing", I think. In any case, there is also a Sum. word dag [DEMOLISH] (15x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. dag "to demolish; to scratch; overthrow, military repulse" Akk. naqāru; sukuptu. Halloran says also "to stretch (out); to roam about" for dag; that could fit also to odax; and it has made me to remember again about δάξα daxa for "sea" (especially because of the meaning of "stretching", maybe also "menacing"); also, if we translitarate it as "daksa", this fits again to an Indic-like word, I think. :D
Supposed by some as being of pre-Hellenic origin again. ;)
Yes ;) .
Since this word is about "biting, gnawing, scratching" and such destructive things, it could match perhaps to a dugud / tukur equation, even in "gnawing", I think. In any case, there is also a Sum. word dag [DEMOLISH] (15x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. dag "to demolish; to scratch; overthrow, military repulse" Akk. naqāru; sukuptu. Halloran says also "to stretch (out); to roam about" for dag; that could fit also to odax; and it has made me to remember again about δάξα daxa for "sea" (especially because of the meaning of "stretching", maybe also "menacing"); also, if we translitarate it as "daksa", this fits again to an Indic-like word, I think. :D
Yeah, this ksip/kraip reminded me the presence of the "r" in this ossetian word äxsirf "sickle", compared by many with Gr. ξιφος xiphos "sword"; also I remember the possibility of Gr. xiphos beeing (at least initially) a kind of javelin or throwstick; we have discussed about all these things almost two years ago, at Giacomo's 3rd Sumerian post. BTW, this must be the 1000th posting on this post of yours :)
About Gr. ρίπτω rhipto "to throw" (most probably from rip-yo <*wer-b, like warp, Germ. werfen "throw" etc), I think we must try a derivation from the **kʷer/kʷel root for "moving", since we must certainly be consistent to our assumptions about the *wer and *wel roots ("to turn") as derived from this same **kʷer/kʷel root); so I think we must assume here a doubled word, using the "r" form, to indicate again a "turning / throwing"; something like *kʷer/kʷ(er); then we could have perhaps a KRT word, if the first kʷ is somehow delabialized / vocalized, and the second kʷ is turned into a "t" (kʷ>t); I mean a KRT word like in Sumerian gurud "to throw"; now, if the first k we assume to have been dropped (because of a kind of lenition perhaps, as the assumption is about kʷer > *wer), then we could have a second form wer/kʷ > werp ( p wrip > rip-); or something like that; in Sumerian we have also this rig/ri (the g intead of a p, like in rip), if this comparison is correct; as in gurud, assuming some types with gʷ instead of kʷ, though a g could be also spelled as a k in Sumerian.
2,273 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 801 – 1000 of 2273 Newer› Newest»tum [BRING] (144x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. tum3; tum2 "imperfect singular stem of de[to bring]"
compared to Sanskrit taṃsayati (root tAms) "draw to and fro" (also taṃsati):
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=tamsayati&direct=se
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=tamsati&direct=se
from *ten-s (extenden form of *ten):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/tens-
PIE *tens- ‘pull, tug’: Sanskrit taṃsayati ‘draws back and forth,’ Gothic at-þinsan ‘pull toward,’ OHG dinsan ‘pull, carry along,’ Lithuanian tę̃sti (tę̃siù) ‘continue, go along; stretch, lengthen; drag out, delay, put off,’ tąsýti (tąsaũ) ‘pull, tug; stretch, extend’ (P:1068-69; MA:187)]
At least the root of σῶμα (sôma) "body" etc is *tewh₂- "to swell, to crowd, to be strong" ( <*tuh₂?-mn̥ )
Yes :).
dalankha could be close to talankh- (*kwal > tal); a word with a t instead of the k of kalam /kanaĝ but with the "l" of kalam and the the final "ĝ" ("ng") of kanaĝ (a wild guessing of IE and pre-IE mixture); then it could be **t(h)alank-
:D .
tum [BRING] (144x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. tum3; tum2 "imperfect singular stem of de[to bring]"
compared to Sanskrit taṃsayati (root tAms) "draw to and fro" (also taṃsati):
........PIE *tens- ‘pull, tug’: Sanskrit taṃsayati ‘draws back and forth,’ Gothic at-þinsan ‘pull toward,’ OHG dinsan ‘pull, carry along,’ Lithuanian tę̃sti (tę̃siù) ‘continue, go along; stretch, lengthen; drag out, delay, put off,’ tąsýti (tąsaũ) ‘pull, tug; stretch, extend’ (P:1068-69; MA:187)]
Nice! :).
About σῶμα (sôma) "body" etc < *tewh₂- "to swell, to crowd, to be strong" ( <*tuh₂?-mn̥ ), another interesting thing, I think, is the similarity of the *tewh₂- root ("to swell etc") with Pokorny's other root *k̑eu-, k̑eu̯ə- : k̑ū-, k̑u̯ā- 'to swell' (the other root with t in Pokorny is *tēu-, təu-, teu̯ə-, tu̯ō-, tū̆- )
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0954
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/2015
A thing which had made me to think about the **kwe(n)kw(e) root (or something like, maybe the k was a k') again (about "round" etc0; if you remember, we were dicussing about the root of "five" (*penkwe- https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1486 ) and Giacomo was thinking about a kwenkwe, and I thought that *ten for stretch (the hand) could be also from a **kwen (Giacomo disagreed).
About σῶμα (sôma) "body" etc < *tewh₂- "to swell, to crowd, to be strong" ( <*tuh₂?-mn̥ ), another interesting thing, I think, is the similarity of the *tewh₂- root ("to swell etc") with Pokorny's other root *k̑eu-, k̑eu̯ə- : k̑ū-, k̑u̯ā- 'to swell' (the other root with t in Pokorny is *tēu-, təu-, teu̯ə-, tu̯ō-, tū̆- )
Indeed :) .
A thing which had made me to think about the **kwe(n)kw(e) root (or something like, maybe the k was a k') again (about "round" etc0; if you remember, we were dicussing about the root of "five" (*penkwe- https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1486 ) and Giacomo was thinking about a kwenkwe, and I thought that *ten for stretch (the hand) could be also from a **kwen (Giacomo disagreed).
I remember Kyriakos :).
For example, if "five" is from **kwenkwe, and we could have **kwenkwe > *penkwe > Gr. πέντε pente "five" or πέμπε pempe (Aeolic type of πέντε)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%AD%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%B5
then we could also have also πέμπω (pémpō) "send, dispatch, send forth" etc (like in πομπή pompe "procession, "pomp") from a root similar to *kwenkw(e) for "send forth"; maybe from a notion of "stretching the hand", perhaps...
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BC%CF%80%CE%AE#Ancient_Greek
Makes strong sense Kyriakos .
Not to say about a possible connection between the *sent and *pent roots (from k̑wen/kwen perhaps?); since the "round" roots could be also for "moving" (like *kwel in wheel etc)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/sent-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/pent-
Quite possible ! .
Hi Nirjhar,
About Sum. tumu for "give, carry" etc, if we assume a *ten-s > *tem-s > **tem-h, perhaps from **kwen-s> **kwem-s, if, then, this **kwe is de-labialized as "ko" (like in Gr. boukolos from bous "cow" and *kwel>), so becoming something like **kom-s > kom-h (?), then I think there could be a connection with another Gr. verb κομίζω komizō (< κομέω komeō), meaning also "to bring, to carry, to take care" etc:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g2865
In a matter of fact, "tumu" (to bring etc) seems to be connected to "tuku" (to obtain etc).
I think there could be a connection with another Gr. verb κομίζω komizō (< κομέω komeō), meaning also "to bring, to carry, to take care" etc: .
I agree :) .
In a matter of fact, "tumu" (to bring etc) seems to be connected to "tuku" (to obtain etc).
True :).
The root of "ten" (déḱm̥) could be involved, too (since the k most probably is a ḱ > s):
"Has been suggested to contain an element *ḱm̥t, possibly from *ḱomt (“hand”), in which case *de-ḱm̥t could mean originally “two hands.”
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/d%C3%A9%E1%B8%B1m%CC%A5
About the "de" part of déḱm̥, I think it reminds also the Sumerian de of tumu as "imperfect singular stem of de[to bring]".
yup :).
Finally, I think that there could be also a connection to this word κόσμος kosmos = "order, lawful order, government, mode, fashion, ornament, decoration, honour, crediτ, ruler, world, universe, the earth, mankind":
"From earlier *ḱónsmos, from Proto-Indo-European *ḱens- or *ḱems-, "to put in order". Related to Latin cēnseō (“to estimate”) and Sanskrit शंसति (śaṃsati, “to commend, praise”)"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%8C%CF%83%CE%BC%CE%BF%CF%82
Especially since the meaning of "decoration" fits also to Skrt. taMsayati. :)
Wonderful! :) .
About de [BRING] (1794x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian) wr. de6; ga [ES]; de3; ir[ES]; de2 "to bring, carry" Akk.
babālu
One notes the Emesal types "ga" and "ir"; ga could lead perhaps to think of some **gwa/gwe, giving (delabialized) both ga and de, as in two dialects; "ir" maybe is a totally different word; or could lead one to think about a possible r extension like **gwe-r/gwir > gir, and a subsequent loss of g, like (/)ir (?); anyway, about ir there is a poosible comparison with Pokorny's *er etc meaning "to move, stir, set in motion" (look for example Hittite ar-nu-mi "to bring, set in motion".
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0498
I think it is possible an existence of 2 similar types (like **k'we and **g'we (with their r/l or n extensions) as we have seen in these *kand/gand etc words before.
could lead one to think about a possible r extension like **gwe-r/gwir > gir, and a subsequent loss of g, like (/)ir (?); anyway, about ir there is a poosible comparison with Pokorny's *er etc meaning "to move, stir, set in motion" (look for example Hittite ar-nu-mi "to bring, set in motion".
I consider possible this! :) .
I think it is possible an existence of 2 similar types (like **k'we and **g'we (with their r/l or n extensions) as we have seen in these *kand/gand etc words before.
Agreed ! :).
From the Hittite Vocabulary (by David Michael Weeks) University of California
10.61 — CARRY — A basic sense ‘transport, (re)move, deliver’
etc. underlies the many shades of meaning apparent in arnu-, a
caus. (*r̥-new-/r̥-nu-) to IE *er- ‘move’, matching Skt. ṛṇóti ‘arise’,
Av. ərənoiti, Gk. ὄρνῡμι ‘rouse, set in motion’. Also important is
the deriv. arnuwala- ‘displaced person, deportee’. P 162-67.
In most cases the notion of ‘carrying’ is expressed by the more
directionally explicit verbs for ‘bring’, 10.62.
10.62 — BRING — The directional preverbs u- (we-, wa-) ‘hither’
and pe- ‘thither’ are much in evidence in pairs of verbs for ‘bring
(here)’ and ‘send (away)’.
The basis of uda- ‘bring’ and peda- ‘take away’ is probably dā-
‘take’ (11.13; HWb. 168-69), less likely dai- ‘set, place’ (HWb.
236-37).
For example, g̑em(e)-'to marry' could be from a previous g̑wem- (a second type for *k'wen/m); connected also to *gwen- for woman etc, which couls be connected to damaris etc as Dziebel had roposed (or Sum. dam) ...
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0564
For example, g̑em(e)-'to marry' could be from a previous g̑wem- (a second type for *k'wen/m); connected also to *gwen- for woman etc, which couls be connected to damaris etc as Dziebel had roposed (or Sum. dam) ...
Yup! :) .
Halloran's entries (edition 2006) about these words:
ir(10), er(-ra): v., to bring; to lead away; to capture; to carry off; to go (Emesal dialect for tum2, cf., re7).
de6,2, ðe6: to bring, carry (-ši- or -ta- denote direction); to remove (with ra- or -tas-); to continue on (suppletion class verb: singular object hamtu, cf., tum2,3, lah4; Emesal ga(14)).
re7; re6, ri6, ra2, ir10; e-re7; er, ir: to accompany, lead; to bear; to go; to drive
along or away; to take possession; to stir, mix (suppletion class verb: plural hamtu e.re7.er; cf., du, ĝen, sub2).
rig; ri: to bring; to tend; to pull; to glean, pick, collect (reduplication class) (flowing motion such as re7, 'to accompany, lead, drive along' + ig, 'door, entrance').
(ePSD has rig [DONATE] (3x: ED IIIb, Old Babylonian) wr. rig7; rig9; rigx(|PA.TUK.DU|) "to donate")
This last one (rig) has a resemblence with Pokorny's Etymon *reig̑-, rēig̑- 'to reach, stretch out' https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1607
connecting also the meanings "to give etc" and "to stretch" btw. Sum. rig seems also a kind of **gir reversed (implying a **gwer perhaps?); also some meanings, as they're in Halloran's lexicon, are implying a connection with Sum. deg "to collect" etc (?).
This rig reminded me also Gr. ὀρέγω (orégō) "I reach, stretch, stretch out, I reach out, hold out, hand, give; I stretch myself out, stretch forth my hand; (with genitive) I reach at, reach out to; I aim at; (with genitive) I yearn for; (with accusative) I take.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%80%CF%81%CE%AD%CE%B3%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
of some similar root with *reig of "reach" etc. From Proto-Indo-European *h₃réǵeti.
Cognates include Avestan (rāšta), Old Irish rigim, Latin regō, and Old English riht (English right).
About the notion "stretch" etc and the possible connection with πέμπω pempo "send forth", there is also Pokorny's root *temp 'to span, stretch, extend' (like "temple" or "tapistry" etc)
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1987
(assuming both initials t and p < kw of **kwen-)
Foxvog also has in his Sumerian Glossary: ri(g) → de5
de5(g) to pick up, gather up, collect; to remove, plunder (Sallaberger, AV Klein 250) Many still read ri(g); Selz, ASJ 17, 260 reads /dri/. See also Steinkeller,
JCS 35, 249f.
[so, I think, there is a connection with deg "to collect" etc; maybe also with some assumed roots we have discussed like **dreg, or drep for Gr. δρέπω etc]
while: de6 → túm
túm, tùm to bring in, deliver; to take away (see Thomsen, Sumerian Language p. 133) Forms include: de6(DU) perf. sg.; túm(DU), tùm imperf. sg.; lah4(DU over DU) or lah5(DU.DU) perf. & imperf. pl. Problems remain, however. In OB there are indications that the sg. forms are túm or tùm perf. and túm-mu imperf. There may be a link between this sign and ku4(r) in OS and Ur III (see Krecher, ZA 77, 7- 21); cf. the Ur III accounting phrase šà mu-TUM2-rata
'out of income.' The Emesal equivalent of túm is ir. See Sallaberger, AV Schretter 557-576 for the following new description: a) bring I = mit sich führen, geleiten ‘to lead, escort’. Used only with living persons or animals that can move by themselves. Forms are túm(DU) perf.sg., tùm imperf. sg., and plural lah4 or lah5 both perf. & imperf.; b) bring II = liefern 'to deliver (by carrying)'. Forms are de6 perf. sg., tùm, túm(-mu) imperf. sg. V. Meyer-Laurin, ZA 100 (2010) 1-14, considers the situation to be "weitaus komplexer" in OB texts, requiring further study. For 65 Emesal forms ga(-ga), ir, see Jaques, AV Attinger 193ff.
This last one (rig) has a resemblence with Pokorny's Etymon *reig̑-, rēig̑- 'to reach, stretch out'
Yes quite rightly :) .
connecting also the meanings "to give etc" and "to stretch" btw. Sum. rig seems also a kind of **gir reversed (implying a **gwer perhaps?); also some meanings, as they're in Halloran's lexicon, are implying a connection with Sum. deg "to collect" etc (?).
Nice suggestion !. :)
This rig reminded me also Gr. ὀρέγω (orégō) "I reach, stretch, stretch out, I reach out, hold out, hand, give; I stretch myself out, stretch forth my hand; (with genitive) I reach at, reach out to; I aim at; (with genitive) I yearn for; (with accusative) I take.
Quite comparable IMO .
(assuming both initials t and p < kw of **kwen-)
Very correct! :) .
so, I think, there is a connection with deg "to collect" etc; maybe also with some assumed roots we have discussed like **dreg, or drep for Gr. δρέπω etc
Interesting Suggestion again Kyriakos! :) .
Maybe it's not deg> leg as Giacomo suggested, but also deg > leg - reg (l/r) or rather de(g) > le(g) - re(g) and then this le(g) became "lah" and the re(g) also as re / er (inversed) or ri / ir etc.
Also, if this de is the same of the de in *dekmt (for ten), I remember that it is supposed to become a "he" in case of Gr. hekaton "a hundred" (from *dkmtom - unless it is from (sm-kmtom).
:D
Greek ὀρέγω (oregō) also seems like an inversed ἀγείρω ageirō (to gather etc, like agora), like, let's say *Hreg - *Hger.
I wanted to say it's not "just" deg>leg as Giacomo suggested etc...
The situation is compilcated also with the d/dr phoneme :/
Greek ὀρέγω (oregō) also seems like an inversed ἀγείρω ageirō (to gather etc, like agora), like, let's say *Hreg - *Hger.
True :).
I wanted to say it's not "just" deg>leg as Giacomo suggested etc...
I understand .
The situation is compilcated also with the d/dr phoneme :/
Perhaps :/
About nagara again :) I remembered something about Skt. grāma; Giacomo has said:
"But grāma means also a troop, a nomadic group, and originally indicates a group (also the gamut of notes!) rather than a settlement. In Middle Persian, grāmag means 'wealth, possession', in Baluchi grām is 'burden', in Russian gromada is a 'big heap', in Polish 'crowd, heap, village community'. So, the root is that of a collection, a group from *gr- 'to collect, gather'."
Having in mind the Hreg / Hger comparison and putting a Dreg (D/H) instead, I think there is a (distant) connection to "drachma" (a burden that one holds in his hands) :p :D
Nice one :) .
Another curious thought: having in mind grāma etc, Sum "de" somehow reminded me of Gr. δῆμος (dêmos) "people, district" etc:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%E1%BF%86%CE%BC%CE%BF%CF%82
From Proto-Indo-European *deh₂mos (“people”) (perhaps originally a feminine), from *deh₂- (“to divide”), whence also δαίομαι (daíomai). The original meaning was thus "part". Cognate with Mycenaean Greek (da-mo), Old Irish dám (“followers, crowd”) and Old Welsh dauu.
supposing that this *deH- is not perhaps about "divide" but about gathering of people or bringing/leading people somewhere (Sum de5 or de6).
supposing that this *deH- is not perhaps about "divide" but about gathering of people or bringing/leading people somewhere (Sum de5 or de6).
Makes sense Kyriakos :) .
Yes, maybe also Emesal "ga" type for "de" or "de(g)" (if we consider also the reading "ri" or "ri(g)" could lead from a de-mo (or rather da-mo) to a ga-mo (perhaps like in gamos marriage?) and then gra-mo / gra-ma (with r); denoting also a "coming together" notion like in agora < ageiro etc. Sorry, Nirjhar, for the wild guessings...
maybe also Emesal "ga" type for "de" or "de(g)" (if we consider also the reading "ri" or "ri(g)" could lead from a de-mo (or rather da-mo) to a ga-mo (perhaps like in gamos marriage?) and then gra-mo / gra-ma (with r); denoting also a "coming together" notion like in agora < ageiro etc.
Very interesting! :) .
Finally there is Sum. lah [BRING] (167x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. lah5; lah4 "plural stem of de [to bring]"
reminding Gr. λαός laos "people, crowd, people under arms" etc (especially its Hhittite cognate); maybe from a notion of "bringing people together".
other forms λεώς (leṓs) (Attic), ληός (lēós) (Ionic)
Etymology: From Proto-Hellenic *lāwós, possibly from Proto-Indo-European *leh₂wos (“people (under arms)”), from *leh₂- (“military action”).[1] Cognate with Hittite (laḫḫa-, “campaign”) and Phrygian λαϝαγταει (lawagtaei).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BB%CE%B1%CF%8C%CF%82
Really nice! :).
According to Halloran's lexicon (ed. 2006) it is lah4,5,6: to bring or lead (plural); to drive off; to plunder, capture, take away; to fling (away) (suppletion class verb: plural form, cf., de6, tum2,3) (ila2, 'to bring', + ha2, 'numerous').
the notion "plunder" (also de5 as "plunder"; look at Foxvog), reminds me of Gr. λεία leia "plunder, booty" etc
From Proto-Indo-European *leh₂w-. Cognates include Sanskrit लोत (lota), Latin lucrum, Gothic 𐌻𐌰𐌿𐌽 (laun), Old Norse laun, Old English lean.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BB%CE%B5%CE%AF%CE%B1
Yes :).
Sanskrit lota here:
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=lota&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
maybe the r types (ir, er, re) with an extension (like the one in δρέπω drepo) are connected too; for example in "rob".
https://www.etymonline.com/word/rob
(I think we have discussed already in Giacomo's posts a word lib or liblib about plundering, Gr. λάφυρον laphyron "booty" etc).
Maybe then a "lagar" (vizier) is just the one who is leading (if lag is connected to lah).
maybe the r types (ir, er, re) with an extension (like the one in δρέπω drepo) are connected too; for example in "rob".
I agree.
Maybe then a "lagar" (vizier) is just the one who is leading (if lag is connected to lah).
Of course :).
Latin lucrum "profit, advantage, love of gain, avarice" is also interesting:
From Proto-Indo-European *leh₂u- (“profit, gain”) + *-tlom. Cognate with Laverna, Ancient Greek ἀπολαύω (apolaúō, “to enjoy”), λείᾱ (leíā), Sanskrit लोत्र (lotra, “booty”), German Lohn (“reward, wages”), Gothic 𐌻𐌰𐌿𐌽 (laun).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lucrum
Nirjhar, I think this is about an inverted form (like lah/hal):
Gr. ἐλαύνω (elaúnō) [Alternative forms: ἐλάω (eláō) – poetic; ἐλῶ (elô) – Attic]:
drive, set in motion (of going in conveyances); (transitive) ride a horse, drive a chariot, sail a ship; (intransitive) go, ride, sail; drive away; persecute, plague; strike with a weapon, hit one thing against another; beat out metal, forge
From Proto-Indo-European *h₁el- (“to move, drive, go”). See ἦλθον (êlthon).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%90%CE%BB%CE%B1%CF%8D%CE%BD%CF%89
Sum. hal perhaps it is connected, as an inversed form (both hal and lah I think have some Akkadian counterpart words)
hal [DIVIDE] (55x: ED IIIb, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. hal-ha; ha-la; hal "to divide, deal out, distribute; to perform an extispicy; to open; a secret; to pour away; to sieve; to slink, crawl away; a qualification of grain" Akk. barû; halālu; nazālu; petû; pirištu; zâzu; šahālu
From Proto-Indo-European *leh₂u- (“profit, gain”) + *-tlom. Cognate with Laverna, Ancient Greek ἀπολαύω (apolaúō, “to enjoy”), λείᾱ (leíā), Sanskrit लोत्र (lotra, “booty”), German Lohn (“reward, wages”), Gothic 𐌻𐌰𐌿𐌽 (laun).
Yes I agree :) .
Nirjhar, I think this is about an inverted form (like lah/hal):
Another very interesting suggestion! :D .
Sum. hal perhaps it is connected, as an inversed form (both hal and lah I think have some Akkadian counterpart words)
Yes! :).
I think we are used to that things :) also a Hel root looks a bit like *kwel or *gwel (let's say) with a laryngeal instead of "kw" or "gw"; or to word like turkish gel "to come" (and all these Nostratic words):
Eurasiatic: *kä[lH]V
Meaning: walk, roam, ford
Borean: Borean
Indo-European: ? *kel-
Altaic: *gèle; TM *guli- 'set out, off'; *kalV ( ~ -ĺ-) 'come near' 743
Uralic: *kälä (cf. also kulke under *ḳoĺV); Sk. qäl- 'run, walk'
Kartvelian: *gwal- [or Megr. (n)kill- 'to roam']
Dravidian: NDr *kāl- 'to go, lead' (if separate from *ḱā-)
Chukchee-Kamchatkan: Chuk. *ɣala- (336)
Comments: ? слав. гулять (ср. картв.)
References: At least two roots. МССНЯ 332, ОССНЯ 1, 293-294; ND 616 *gUlE (TM *guli-, Ur. *kulke, Kartv. *gwal-); 869 *kal̄(ʔ)V 'approach, come' (Sk. qäl- + Alt. *kalV + SH *kal-); 872 *käl(h)V 'to walk, wade' (Ur. *kälä- + Alt. *gele [only Turk. and Kor.] + Drav. + again SH *kal-); Greenberg 71 adds IE *kel-; ND 1063 *ḳUĺʕ[ü/u] 'track(s), way; to go, travel' (IE *kel-, ObU *kVĺV 'track(s), sign' +SH). A great deal of confusion here.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=++34&root=config
So, we have a IE root deH "divide, share" a potential root deH about "gather" etc, also In Sumerian de = bring, lead etc, which has an alternative form lah "bring, lead" etc (perhaps connected also with some IE forms), then, as it seems, an inverted Sum. form hal "divide, share, lot" etc (maybe also connected to some IE type).
btw, another Sum. word looks like a "de" inverted (also with similar Akkadian words):
ed [ASCEND] (595x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. ed3; |UD×U+U+U.DU| "to go up or down; to demolish; to scratch; to rage, be rabid" Akk. arādu; elû; naqāru; šegû
also a Hel root looks a bit like *kwel or *gwel (let's say) with a laryngeal instead of "kw" or "gw"; or to word like turkish gel "to come" (and all these Nostratic words):
Very agreeable! :) .
ed [ASCEND] (595x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. ed3; |UD×U+U+U.DU| "to go up or down; to demolish; to scratch; to rage, be rabid"
Oh yes! very nice. I remember connecting it with this too :
https://www.etymonline.com/word/out
Yes, I remember, too :)
Do you think that a comparison with this root (with ud perhaps) is also possible?
*h₁ey- "to go"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%81ey-
since this original "d" seems to be dropped; Halloran says: e3, ed2 [UD.DU]; i : to go out, emerge; to send forth; to issue; to lead or bring out; to rise; to consign; to rise; to sprout; to be or become visible; to appear (as a witness; to rave, become frenzied (the original final d only appears in marû conjugation by the time of written Sumerian) [ED2 archaic frequency: 12; concatenates 2 sign variants].
Maybe there is also a connection with Sum. du "to walk, to go, to come" etc, perhaps...
Do you think that a comparison with this root (with ud perhaps) is also possible?
Possible yes! :) .
Maybe there is also a connection with Sum. du "to walk, to go, to come" etc, perhaps...
Yup :) .
I think about Sum. ed "rabid" we had compared the IE ed "eat" (or I remember wrongly?)
As Foxvog says, the signs are de6(DU), túm(DU), lah4(DU over DU) or lah5(DU.DU); signs which seem almost to be the opposite of the one of ed3; |UD×U+U+U.DU|
Maybe ed for "rabid" etc was connected to this root:
Proto-IE: *wedh- (Gr w-)
Nostratic etymology: Nostratic etymology
Meaning: axe, chopper; to hit, to chop
Tokharian: A wät-k 'sich trennen, entscheiden', wät-, wet- 'kämpfen'
Old Indian: vadhati, aor. avadhīt `to strike, slay, kill, murder, destroy'; vadhar n., vadhánā f. `deadly weapon'; vádhri- `castrated'
Avestan: vādāya- `zurückstossen'; vada- m. `Keil zum Spalten des Holzes'; vadar- n. `Waffe (zum Schlagen)'
Old Greek: éthris = tomías, kriós (Hsch.), áthris Suidas, íthris = spádōn, tomías, eunū̂khos (Hes)., áthris (Suid.), óthris (Zonar.); ōthéō, aor. ō̂sai̯, éōsa, pass. eṓsthēn, pf. éōka `stossen, drängen, treiben, weg-, fortstossen, vertreiben, zurückwerfen'; ō̂si-s `das Stossen, Weg-, Forstossen', ōsmó-s `id.', ōsmǟ́ f. `Stoss', ṓstǟ-s `Erdstoss', di-ōstḗr m., di-, eks-ṓstra f., n. -ōstra n.; én-osi-s, -eōs f. 'shaking, quake' Hes.+, énnosis = kínēsis (Hsch.); {éthōn 'stossend' - wanted!}
Baltic: *wedeg-ā̂ f.
Celtic: OIr fodb, fadb `Axt ?' OIr fāisc- `drücken', MCymr gwascu, Bret gwaska `id.'
Russ. meaning: бить, рубить; рубило, топор
References: WP I 254 f
Comments: Cf. Tokh B yatwe 'whip, thong' (Adams 482); A wac, B weta 'combat, struggle'; B wät- 'fight' (590, 608)
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=2834&root=config
I think about Sum. ed "rabid" we had compared the IE ed "eat" (or I remember wrongly?)
I also remember similar :) .
Foxvog says, the signs are de6(DU), túm(DU), lah4(DU over DU) or lah5(DU.DU); signs which seem almost to be the opposite of the one of ed3; |UD×U+U+U.DU|
Intriguing .
Maybe ed for "rabid" etc was connected to this root:
Proto-IE: *wedh- (Gr w-)
Yes its possible .
I remembered also a comparison with Latin odium now...
I think, Nirjhar, that at the future we'll read all these comparisons of ours with some big surprise! :-o
We will remember these days very positively! :) .
:D ;) About Sum hal "to divide, deal out, distribute; to perform an extispicy etc" I think it looks also to a Gr. verb, yet inverted, again like "lah", as in Lachesis (one of the three Fates): Λάχεσις (Lákhesis) , Lachesis, one of the three Fates; related to λαγχάνω (lankhánō), “obtain by lot”).
λαγχάνω (lankhánō) seems like a strengthened "lah" (as "lakh" perhaps); with a nasal infix "lankh-".
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%9B%CE%AC%CF%87%CE%B5%CF%83%CE%B9%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
which reminded me again δαλάγχα "dalankha" for sea :D ; so maybe there is indeed a connection to the other word "daxa" about "dividing" the lands, maybe :) ? maybe also to a notion of stretching again (Lachesis' work is about to stretching the thread spun of the life of each mortal) :\
:D ;) About Sum hal "to divide, deal out, distribute; to perform an extispicy etc" I think it looks also to a Gr. verb, yet inverted, again like "lah", as in Lachesis (one of the three Fates): Λάχεσις (Lákhesis) , Lachesis, one of the three Fates; related to λαγχάνω (lankhánō), “obtain by lot”).
λαγχάνω (lankhánō) seems like a strengthened "lah" (as "lakh" perhaps); with a nasal infix "lankh-".
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%9B%CE%AC%CF%87%CE%B5%CF%83%CE%B9%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
which reminded me again δαλάγχα "dalankha" for sea :D ; so maybe there is indeed a connection to the other word "daxa" about "dividing" the lands, maybe :) ? maybe also to a notion of stretching again (Lachesis' work is about to stretching the thread spun of the life of each mortal) :\
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lachesis_(mythology)
:D ;) About Sum hal "to divide, deal out, distribute; to perform an extispicy etc" I think it looks also to a Gr. verb, yet inverted, again like "lah", as in Lachesis (one of the three Fates): Λάχεσις (Lákhesis) , Lachesis, one of the three Fates; related to λαγχάνω (lankhánō), “obtain by lot”).
λαγχάνω (lankhánō) seems like a strengthened "lah" (as "lakh" perhaps); with a nasal infix "lankh-".
Very nice! :) .
which reminded me again δαλάγχα "dalankha" for sea :D ; so maybe there is indeed a connection to the other word "daxa" about "dividing" the lands, maybe :) ? maybe also to a notion of stretching again (Lachesis' work is about to stretching the thread spun of the life of each mortal) :\
Makes very good sense imo Kyriakos :) .
:) I remembered also, Nirjhar, the Semitic word compared to hal (at least the Hebrew); is nachalah "gift (1), give (1), hereditary (1), heritage (14), heritages (1), inheritance (197), inheritances (1), portion (1), possession (7)." (the numbers are about the meanings of this word found in the Bible; like Israel being the inheritance of God etc)
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5159.htm
like in Sum. hala [SHARE] (91x: Old Akkadian, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. ha-la; hal "inheritance share" Akk. zittu
Looks related! :) .
Yes, only that the Akkadian word is different :) On the other hand, if we are talking about "sea", this is the other usual "hal" root as in Gr. ἅλς hals "sea".
From Proto-Indo-European *séh₂ls. Cognates include Sanskrit सलिल (salila), Old Armenian աղ (ał), Latin sāl, and Old English sealt (English salt).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%85%CE%BB%CF%82
which is supposed to be from the word for "salt"; maybe is just the opposite, though? (a word for "sea" gave to "salt" its meaning?)
which is supposed to be from the word for "salt"; maybe is just the opposite, though? (a word for "sea" gave to "salt" its meaning?)
Quite possible !. And as you know, since we can reconstruct word for sea , this suggest that our ancestors likely knew about sea i.e. resided near ocean or at least some big lake .
Something similar to the root of Sarasvati maybe (saras / Greek helos)?
Intriguing again Kyriakos! :) . Looks like we can connect . Beautiful! .
Maybe because of a notion to stretch or divide? (because Gr. helos, meaning "swamp", cannot naturally be from a root for "flowing", I think).
Yes, makes sense :) .
Hellas also as a historical place in Homer is supposed to be in a valley of Thessaly with many horses etc...
Perhaps we have mentioned this , interestingly Indian tradition also tells that Horses came from sea :).
something which could connect perhaps these words the other word for "marsh" telma, maybe? (remember "dilmun"); also hals and thalassa is discussed for a long time to be connected somehow...
you mean like the horses of Poseidon, but Homer says Hellas is a place of beautiful women and a land breading many horses...
you mean like the horses of Poseidon, but Homer says Hellas is a place of beautiful women and a land breading many horses...
oh yes! :) .
something which could connect perhaps these words the other word for "marsh" telma, maybe? (remember "dilmun"); also hals and thalassa is discussed for a long time to be connected somehow...
Yeah :) .
Well, I think that all these were enough for today, Nirjhar; we are going to think about that tomorrow. Good night :)
I mean, I am trying a word like thalassa < talankh- (supposed also from *kwal > tal), connecting also "telma", but I'm missing the procedure from tel to a **sel (or **hel-), maybe through a kind of k' > ts > s? (I doubt so)... :/
I understand :).
Well, I think that all these were enough for today, Nirjhar; we are going to think about that tomorrow. Good night :)
See you :D .
Good morning, Nirjhar :D
I made a few thoughts yesterday night about these words: first, about λαγχάνω (lankhánō) “obtain by lot”), Chantrain thinks about a connection with "long", which could fit good with a notion "stretched", as I think; "long" is from *dl̥h₁gʰós (non-ablauting) with a nasal infix (yet, it seems that the "d" is missing in this case)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/dl%CC%A5h%E2%82%81g%CA%B0%C3%B3s
Maybe *dl̥h₁gʰós (with the nasal infix) fits also (or even better) to the case of δαλάγχα dalankha (maybe from a *dl̥h₁(n)gʰa?), for "sea"; in this case, it could mean just "vast"; unless it meant (at least initially) some long mass of water (as a river or a long lake).
Maybe θάλασσα thalassa (or θάλαττα thalatta in Attic) "sea" is really connected to δαλάγχα dalankha, if we consider that the *ky, *kʰy, *kʷy, *kʷʰy clusters become *ťť (= ss) in Greek, and the d of dalankha, if a Makedonian word, is almost certainly a kind og "dh" = th in common Greek; thalassa then it could be from a *dhl̥h₁(n)kʰya? (dh instead of d and kʰ instead of gʰ?)
About a possible connection with Sarasvati, I've noticed something in her etymology and I'm asking your opinion. According to wikipedia:
"Sarasvatī is the devi feminine of an adjective sarasvant- (which occurs in the Rigveda[12] as the name of the keeper of the celestial waters), derived from Proto-Indo-Iranian *sáras-vat-ī (and earlier, PIE *séles-u̯n̥t-ih₂), meaning ‘marshy, full of pools’, or ‘she with many lakes’. The other term -vatī is the Sanskrit grammatical feminine possessor suffix.
Sanskrit sáras means ‘pool, pond or lake’; the feminine sarasī́ means ‘stagnant pool, swamp’.[13] Like its cognates Welsh hêl, heledd ‘river meadow’ and Greek ἕλος (hélos) ‘swamp’, the Rigvedic term refers mostly to stagnant waters, and Mayrhofer considers unlikely a connection with the root *sar- ‘run, flow’.[14]
Sarasvatī may be a cognate of Avestan Haraxvatī, perhaps[15] originally referring to Arədvī Sūrā Anāhitā (modern Ardwisur Anahid), the Zoroastrian mythological world river, which would point to a common Indo-Iranian myth of a cosmic or mystical Sáras-vat-ī river. In the younger Avesta, Haraxvatī is Arachosia, a region described to be rich in rivers, and its Old Persian cognate Harauvati, which gave its name to the present-day Hārūt River in Afghanistan, may have referred to the entire Helmand drainage basin (the center of Arachosia).
However, the Avestan xv generally cognates with Sanskrit "ksha". The usual cognate to "sva/sa" syllable of Sanskrit is "ngha/ŋh" syllable of Avestan, as generally found in cognate-pairs like Vivasvan-Vivanghat and Rasa-Rangha."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarasvati_River
I was wondering that, if in Avestan the "sva" is "ngha", then we could have, Sarasvati > Sara-sva-ti as Sara-ngha-ti; and this "Sarangha" seems oddly close to "dalankha", if we consider also the l/r in Indoiranian; so, we have to examin about this possible t(h) >? s; anyway, I think we have to deal roughly wirh the possibility of a t(h)al > sal outcome (which is almost like the problem of the difference between the tel-ma and he-los (< *selos) words for "swamp, marshes" in Greek.
A "solution" with an initial "ts" would require a kind of dialectical **tyel- for helos (instead of a tel like in tel-ma), like **tyel-os > **tsel-os > sel-os; or maybe, without a "ts" it could be just **twelos > selos; I'm afraid though it doesn't seem sound, concerning the saras word in Sanskrit ... not to say that I don't siscern any "long" notion in these words for "marsh"...
In this case, the closest word I could find in Sanskrit to "thalassa" is talaka "pond":
http://www.spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=talaka&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
Of course, "long" is from one *del root of Pokorny; yet, there are also other *del roots, like *del-, dol-, delə- 'to split, divide'; and λαγχάνω lanchan, also δαλάγχα dalankha, could possibly belong to this root.
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0331
In Pokorny there is also a note, that this *del- is perhaps an extension of dā[i]- `to divide'; if it is so, then again there is a connection between daxa and dalanhka.
(or maybe a notion of "stretching" connects the both meanings of "long" and "divide"...)
Good morning Kyriakos! :D .
first, about λαγχάνω (lankhánō) “obtain by lot”), Chantrain thinks about a connection with "long", which could fit good with a notion "stretched", as I think; "long" is from *dl̥h₁gʰós (non-ablauting) with a nasal infix (yet, it seems that the "d" is missing in this case)
Yes .
Maybe *dl̥h₁gʰós (with the nasal infix) fits also (or even better) to the case of δαλάγχα dalankha (maybe from a *dl̥h₁(n)gʰa?), for "sea"; in this case, it could mean just "vast"; unless it meant (at least initially) some long mass of water (as a river or a long lake).
Very interesting yes! :).
Maybe θάλασσα thalassa (or θάλαττα thalatta in Attic) "sea" is really connected to δαλάγχα dalankha, if we consider that the *ky, *kʰy, *kʷy, *kʷʰy clusters become *ťť (= ss) in Greek, and the d of dalankha, if a Makedonian word, is almost certainly a kind og "dh" = th in common Greek; thalassa then it could be from a *dhl̥h₁(n)kʰya? (dh instead of d and kʰ instead of gʰ?)
Yes nice suggestion too :).
I was wondering that, if in Avestan the "sva" is "ngha", then we could have, Sarasvati > Sara-sva-ti as Sara-ngha-ti; and this "Sarangha" seems oddly close to "dalankha", if we consider also the l/r in Indoiranian; so, we have to examin about this possible t(h) >? s; anyway, I think we have to deal roughly wirh the possibility of a t(h)al > sal outcome (which is almost like the problem of the difference between the tel-ma and he-los (< *selos) words for "swamp, marshes" in Greek.
I agree with you and the proposal is exciting IMO ! :) .
I'm afraid though it doesn't seem sound, concerning the saras word in Sanskrit ... not to say that I don't siscern any "long" notion in these words for "marsh"...
I agree .
In this case, the closest word I could find in Sanskrit to "thalassa" is talaka "pond":
talaka should be from tala :
http://www.spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=tala&direct=se
But check Mayrhofer .
In Pokorny there is also a note, that this *del- is perhaps an extension of dā[i]- `to divide'; if it is so, then again there is a connection between daxa and dalanhka.
(or maybe a notion of "stretching" connects the both meanings of "long" and "divide"...)
I agree with you! :) .
Hi Nirjhar,
I was wondering this morning about a possible connection of the "saras" of sarasvati with this Sum. word:
sar [GARDEN] (4917x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, uncertain, unknown) wr. sar "garden; a unit of area; a unit of volume" Akk. mūšaru
since Gr. ἕλος helos could mean also "meadow land":
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0073%3Aentry%3De(%2Flos
(note also that an old etymology is given, from a wel-os > selos)
In fact, according to Hesychius, ἕλος means = σύμφυτος τόπος symphytos topos (lit: "a place of plants grown together); ἢ χεῖλος ποταμοῦ he kheilos potamou "or the bank of a river" n. καὶ ὁ τελματώδης τόπος kai ho telmatodes topos = "and the marshy place".
I agree ! :D .
Remembering Sumerian hal "inheritence" etc, I think there could be a notion of "division" etc also in helos, perhaps the same as in νέμος nemos, which is according to Hesychius a σύνδενδρος τόπος syndendros topos "a place of trees grown together" (from νέμω nemo "to distribute, to dispense", if you remember):
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*n%3Aentry+group%3D12%3Aentry%3Dne%2Fmos
Yes :).
I'm writing to connect *del with sar here, if you haven't noticed :D
I know !:) .
You missed a posting again, though :/
Oh ! :P
Are they all online now? :) .
No :( :P
Hmmm please re-post the one not online as I can't find it now :P .
I was wondering about the similarity between Sum. musar [GARDEN] (15x: Old Babylonian) wr. mu2-sar "garden" Akk. mūšaru and musara [INSCRIPTION] (55x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. mu-sar-ra "inscription" Akk. musarû,
making also a reference to Gr. δέλτος deltos "writting tablet" (which is close to "inscription" I think), with a doubtful etymology from this same *del root of Pokorny "to split, divide" https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0331
Yes its nice! :) .
Also this supposed **sarankha- from dalankha :D reminded me Sum. "sanga" (priest, temple manager, scribe etc) and this comparison that Giacomo had made with sacer, sanctus, or sanctum etc, about which, in some other instance, I think talking about Gr. σηκός sekos, we have discussed for a meaning like a place being apart etc; having also in mind that Pokorny, in case of the *del (*dal) root, says about a possible derivation from the *da root; in that case, if sara- is connected also to *dal(a), then we must have also the dala of dalanga (let's say da-la-nga) connected, also, to sa-ra- > so we must have sa-ra-nga < **sa-/-/nga, so sa-nga, sanga :P
Yes the process makes sense :) .
I mean also there are many interesting Sum. "sa" words (like "equal", "lexical entry", "advise", "half", "pay for", "reed bundle", "sinew, tendon, gut, string", most of which seem to be about sharing (like dividing), also the "sinew" etc looks like a stretching meaning. :)
Of course! :) .
I was wondering if (at least some of) these sa etc could be from a *twa > sa (as it is in most cases with Gr. "s" < tw-, like in soma above etc).
Yes that is also possible :)) .
Or some ky or kʷy etc; btw, do you think that this sa for "half" could be also from *sam/sem too; then this -m could be an extension, too.
Yes I think its possible , if we consider extension :) .
About θάλασσα thalassa, sarasvati etc, perhaps it is interesting that in Doric the word is 'salassa' (σάλασσα):
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text;jsessionid=4D4E47EFAFE52822798766EC1BB375F5?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*s%3Aentry+group%3D1%3Aentry%3Dsa%2Flassa
Generally a dh > s (maybe it was a sh?) happens in Doric (like σιός sios instead of θεός theos "god";
I was thinking though about this archaic "palatal sound" you have proposed as existing in proto-IE.
There is also this other Sum. word for 'garden' etc, kiri (fruit) plantation, orchard" Akk. kirû, which is written the same way as "sar":
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e3030.html
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e4804.html
About θάλασσα thalassa, sarasvati etc, perhaps it is interesting that in Doric the word is 'salassa' (σάλασσα):
Beautiful find! :D
Generally a dh > s (maybe it was a sh?) happens in Doric (like σιός sios instead of θεός theos "god";
I was thinking though about this archaic "palatal sound" you have proposed as existing in proto-IE.
Yeah :D
About sar 'garden' there is also this Sum. word for 'orchard' 'kiri', if you remember; it is written with the logogramm of sar.
There is also sar 'write' and Whittaker has connected it to (s)ker 'cut', if I remember well (there is also a sar = 'shave').
Yeah .
About musar "garden" Akk. mūšaru and musara "inscription" Akk. musarû; Hesychius gives a word διψάρα dipsara = δέλτος deltos (writing tablet), which I think is from dub and sar (or rather the iranian - elamitic version dippi / tippi, if I remember from Giacomo's posts, and sar = write); he says also διψάρα = διφθέρα diphthera, which is a leather (usually for writing)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%CE%B9%CF%86%CE%B8%CE%AD%CF%81%CE%B1
If this word is a borrowing (as it seems), maybe this ps / phth alteration indicates something about the quality of the consonant (of the -sar part), like perhaps s/th (< ky?).
maybe this ps / phth alteration indicates something about the quality of the consonant (of the -sar part), like perhaps s/th (< ky?).
hmmm can be :) .
Unless this ps/phth is working like a "TK" cluster here... (something like TTK > TPhTh diphthera > TPS dipsara perhaps? :/
I assume that both meanings of (mu)sar (also kiri) "garden" and (mu)sar(a) "inscription" indicate something like "a piece of (wet) land".
Giacomo was thinking about *gher for kiri; btw, I 've seen a comparison of kiri (maybe also sar) with Proto-Turkic: *jẹr 'earth, land':
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2falt%2fturcet&text_number=++23&root=config
Unless this ps/phth is working like a "TK" cluster here... (something like TTK > TPhTh diphthera > TPS dipsara perhaps? :/
Its also a possibility :) .
"a piece of (wet) land".
Makes practical sense Kyriakos :) .
Some random thoughts Nirjhar: a thorn kluster like TK-ar could have given (with metathesis) a KTar (like in Greek) or else a KSar (like in Indic); with the k of KS dropped (as in Avestan sometimes) these types look like sar "write" or "shave" in Sumerian - while with "k" this ksar looks like ksura; also, the k dropped, like in Celtic, this ktar evolves to a tar ("cut" in Sumerian); while the TK-ar, T dropped as in Latin (look at Kloekhorst for all these transformations) may look like (s)ker "cut"; or else the TK-ar with a t>s (as we assumed in forms like Sparta etc from a *tpel like pura, perhaps) seems like *(s)ker "cut". So, maybe the "thorn clusters" pay some role in the creation of roots (I think).
:D This why I love you so much bro! , you always make logical and innovative constructions !.
Thanks :) I made today some other random thoughts :D perhaps we can try also a "thorn cluster" in case of saras :P I was thinking about the dǵh (TK) of *dǵh-uH "fish"; (or rather some similar root); Kloekhorst has said dǵh is from a root meaning "liquid", maybe in our case it has to do with some "muddy" waters (most probably salty, remember the connection with "salt"), like perhaps the root of the word "fish" ;) in that case a **TKar in some case (like in Avestan, with just TK > K > S) would be again a **sar (or rather sal>sar ), hence saras / helos < seles, while in some other case it could become **tal/tar ( like in Celtic: TK > KT > T), resembling to thal-assa / dal-ankha (< **dhal); the -ankh/-anch being the alternative extension of -sva-, perhaps...
Very interesting! :D .
Maybe TKan/TKam was for "earth" (etc) and TKar/TKal for "water" (etc)... :P
Obviously :) .
Yes :) the full (let's say) "thorn cluster construction" in this case would be obviously (:D ) a word like ksara "water, flow, trickle, perishable, acid" etc (TKar> KSAR):
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=ksara&direct=se
The PS effect here is, like in Greek phthisis / psisis, for decrease, loss etc (also Sum. ibiza etc)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CE%B8%CE%AF%CF%83%CE%B9%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
Finally, maybe a PSar- could be related to Apsara:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apsara
(maybe the a- is a prothetic value here, something like the i in ichthys "fish" perhaps).
Also, one can imagines that even the "ap" root for "water" was derived from just this ap-sar- , maybe ...
a word like ksara "water, flow, trickle, perishable, acid" etc (TKar> KSAR):
Yes! :) .
The PS effect here is, like in Greek phthisis / psisis, for decrease, loss etc (also Sum. ibiza etc)
Yup! :) .
Also, one can imagines that even the "ap" root for "water" was derived from just this ap-sar- , maybe ..
Very interesting! :) .
Random thoughs continuing :D ;) so, we have the impression of some muddy, salty or acid, destructive (by floodings etc) waters here (most probably rivers; yet it could be also a kind of delta region, near the sea).
ab exists also in Sumerian of course, as ab [SEA] (51x: Old Akkadian, Old Babylonian) wr. ab; a-ab-ta "sea" Akk. tâmtu; Halloran has also a word nab "ocean"; this, having also in mind the reading "a-ab-ta", could lead us perhaps to think about a word like "naphtha" (with a PT cluster); ultimately from an Iranian word for "wet", according to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naphtha
So, maybe this supposed HaPSa-r could be also a kind of word like NaPTa-(r?) (reminds the nagar- /agar Hgar word again, for "city").
Random thoughs continuing :D ;) so, we have the impression of some muddy, salty or acid, destructive (by floodings etc) waters here (most probably rivers; yet it could be also a kind of delta region, near the sea).
ab exists also in Sumerian of course, as ab [SEA]
I agree :).
maybe this supposed HaPSa-r could be also a kind of word like NaPTa-(r?) (reminds the nagar- /agar Hgar word again, for "city").
:D
There is also Sum. naĝa [POTASH] (2521x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. naĝa; na-ma "potash, soap" Akk. uhūlu
Also naĝa dub [RUB] (3x: Old Babylonian) wr. naĝa dub2 "to rub with soap"
And if you remember there is also this Gr. verb νάσσω nasso, Att. νάττω natto, fut.
A.“νάξω naxo” Hsch.: aor. ἔναξα (v. infr.): pf. Pass. νένασμαι and νέναγμαι (v. infr.): 'press, squeeze close, stamp down' etc (stump down, like in a muddy ground).
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dna%2Fssw
maybe compared to naĝ; nasso (< nak-yo) looks like the meaning of Sum. "dub" (like in naĝa dub 'rub') compared with τύπτειν typtein etc (like typo-), or *(s)teib etc for "press, squeeze, stamp down, beat" etc (look at Giacomo's list about the cognates); this is compared also to the already mentioned δέφω depho or depso δέψω "to rub, to masturbate", and words like diphthera / dipsara etc for writing stuff like leather or a writing tablet; I'm trying to say there is again some nab-dab = nag/dag here (if δέφω is from degw- as it is assumed), through a lag/lab perhaps (remember lagab etc); λίψ lips means also "stream" in Greek 9remember, from leibo, "libation" etc...
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*l%3Aentry+group%3D46%3Aentry%3Dli%2Fy2
I'm trying to say there is again some nab-dab = nag/dag here (if δέφω is from degw- as it is assumed), through a lag/lab perhaps (remember lagab etc); λίψ lips means also "stream" in Greek 9remember, from leibo, "libation" etc...
Yup! :) .
Another thikg is about Gr. ξηρός (xērós) m (feminine ξηρᾱ́, neuter ξηρόν); first/second declension "dry΄the effects of being without water: parched, withered
By extension: shrunken, paralyzed, lean;(voice) rough, hoarse; fasting; and its connection to kṣārá:
From Proto-Indo-European *kseros. Cognates include Latin serescō, Old High German serawēn, Old Armenian չոր (čʿor), Middle Armenian չիր (čʿir) and perhaps Sanskrit क्षार (kṣārá, “sharp, acrid, pungent”). However, the lengthened vowel η where ε would normally be expected is problematic.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BE%CE%B7%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%82
It seems to be like a root derived from Indic; what do you think?
Possible! :) .
One root (and meaning) derives from some other, I think; I was thinking again about dipsa δίψα "thirst", as assumed from the same (or a similar) root, connected also to 'dryness', also διψηρός dipērós means "thirsty", which looks close to ξηρός (xērós) in form:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*d%3Aentry+group%3D92%3Aentry%3Ddiyhro%2Fs
(I have an inclination, generally, to assume some Indic connection for the most of ksi and psi words in Greek).
(I have an inclination, generally, to assume some Indic connection for the most of ksi and psi words in Greek).
I understand ! :) .
I meant διψηρός dipsērós "thirsty"; "dryness" and "wet" are the opposites; yet the notion of 'thirsty' is connected, I think, here mostly with the "destructive" effects of water (like flooding etc) - after all, you cannot drink salty (or muddy) water.
Makes nice sense ! :) .
As, for example, in ὀξῠ́ς (oxús) m (feminine ὀξεῖᾰ, neuter ὀξύ); first/third declension also "sharp, pointed" etc (again like kṣārá, "sharp, acrid" etc, maybe also kṣaura "shaving" etc )
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%80%CE%BE%CF%8D%CF%82
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82e%E1%B8%B1-
Possibly this root h₂eḱ- is derived from a similar process of a TK thorn cluster for "pointed" (like perhaps Iranian tig = sharp) - like TK-ar > (H)KS-ar > HK- > h₂eḱ-
both "wet" and "sharp" comes also for h₂eḱru "tear" (let's say "salty water").
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82e%E1%B8%B1ru
also with a d/l initial, like dáḱru:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/d%C3%A1%E1%B8%B1ru
Possibly this root h₂eḱ- is derived from a similar process of a TK thorn cluster for "pointed" (like perhaps Iranian tig = sharp) - like TK-ar > (H)KS-ar > HK- > h₂eḱ-
both "wet" and "sharp" comes also for h₂eḱru "tear" (let's say "salty water").
Yes beautiful! :) .
kṣara seems to be also connected to "letter, alphabet, syllable" etc in akṣara (probably from a-akṣara "imperishable")
अक्षर (akṣara) "imperishable, unalterablesyllable", also "the syllable om, letter, vowel, sound, word, a name of Brahma, water, final beatitude, religious austerity, a sacrifice (lexicography)"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%95%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B7%E0%A4%B0#Sanskrit
It's interesting that diphthera / dipsara is also about writing (tablet) etc; maybe it is connected also with "letter"; yet "imperishable" in Greek is ἄφθιτος aphthtitos or ἄφθαρτος aphthartos.
For the notion "sharp"; obviously a KT type thorn cluster is Sum. kud "cut" (a KS type is also kizurra "sharp edge" etc like kṣura "razor").
Also, though its writing is "ku", the ePSD states "kud" for "fish"; again a type KT "thorn cluster" (like Gr. ikhthus).
About the PS for "fish"; in Greek there is opson 'relish'which is usually fish; the etymology it is not known, whether it meant initially just fish or generally 'relish'; anyway "a diminutive of opson, opsarion (ὀψάριον), provides the modern Greek word for fish: psari (ψάρι)"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opson
Again a TK thorn cluster for "sharp, cut" etc could be Sum. tuk [BREAK] wr. tukx(|IM.KAD3|) "to break off, pinch off; to cut, fell; to demolish; to scratch; to soften, dissolve" Akk. karāşu "to break off, pinch off"; nakāsu "to cut, fell"; naqāru "to demolish"; narābu "to soften, dissolve".
Also a "thorn" cluster TK could be found in tukul [WEAPON] (1370x: Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. [ĝeš]tukul; tukul "stick; weapon" Akk. kakku.
According to Whittaler, compared to an IE tuk-lo < *(s)teu
I think that in Greek a KS Indic-like cluster in this case for TuK-lo could be ξύλον xylon ξῠ́λον: (xúlon) n (genitive ξῠ́λου); second declension (mostly in plural) cut wood, timber;
piece of wood, log, beam, post; cudgel, club, stick; an instrument of punishment: wooden collar, stocks, gallows; bench, table; tree; blockhead; a measure of length: 3 or 2⅔ cubits.
"Possibly cognate with Lithuanian šùlas (“post, pole, stave”), Russian шу́ло (šúlo, “garden-pole”), Serbo-Croatian šȗlj (“block”), in which case it is from a Proto-Indo-European *kseulo-. Compare also Old High German sūl (“style, pole”), Gothic 𐍃𐌰𐌿𐌻𐍃 (sauls, “pillar”)."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BE%CF%8D%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%BD
again a *kseulo looks odd as a Proto-IE root (like *kseros), I think.
It's interesting that diphthera / dipsara is also about writing (tablet) etc; maybe it is connected also with "letter"; yet "imperishable" in Greek is ἄφθιτος aphthtitos or ἄφθαρτος aphthartos.
Nice Kyriakos :) .
Greek there is opson 'relish'which is usually fish; the etymology it is not known, whether it meant initially just fish or generally 'relish'; anyway "a diminutive of opson, opsarion (ὀψάριον), provides the modern Greek word for fish: psari (ψάρι)"
Very interesting.
I think that in Greek a KS Indic-like cluster in this case for TuK-lo could be ξύλον xylon ξῠ́λον: (xúlon) n (genitive ξῠ́λου); second declension (mostly in plural) cut wood, timber;
piece of wood, log, beam, post; cudgel, club, stick; an instrument of punishment: wooden collar, stocks, gallows; bench, table; tree; blockhead; a measure of length: 3 or 2⅔ cubits.
I agree :) .
again a *kseulo looks odd as a Proto-IE root (like *kseros), I think.
Yeah :).
Hi Nirjhar,
Gr. a-phthartos "unperishable" is from φθείρω (phtheírō) "to destroy, to ruin, to spoil"(Cf. Skt. ksárati 'flow', later 'wane, perish').
From Proto-Indo-European *dʰgʷʰer- (“flow, diverge; perish”) via the middle form φθείρομαι (phtheíromai, “to be destroyed, perish”) with new active meaning "destroy". Cognate to Sanskrit क्षरति (kṣárati, “flows, diverges; disappears”), Avestan γžaraiti (γžaraiti, “flows, streams”).
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=fqei/rw
It's the same root of "phthisis",compared to Sum. ibiza (but with another ending -er)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CE%B8%CE%AF%CF%83%CE%B9%CF%82
I was wondering if there could be some comparable Sum. word with a "TKr" structure (like dʰgʷʰer-); one potential candidate is "tukur", with some meanings of destruction; not at all sure about this, yet I think this word must include a "thorn cluster" (like tuku, for example):
tukur [CHEW] (8x: Old Babylonian) wr. tukur2; tukur; tukur3 "to chew, gnaw; to shear, pluck wool" Akk. gaşaşu; kasāsu; sepû siki [ETCSL: tukur2=to crush.]
Nostratic here; morphologically I think it fits; semantically it lacks the "flow" meaning, connected though to a notion of "crush":
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2Fdata%2Fie%2Fpiet&text_number=1776&root=config
Halloran includes also a meaning "silence" for Sum. "tukur".
If this word does include the "thorn cluste" mentioned above, then I think it could fit to the opposite meaning of अक्षर (akṣara, a-kṣara) "imperishable", "letter, vowel, sound, word"; in this case tukur could mean "destruction of sounds", then "silence".
In this case, if διψάρα dipsara / διφθέρα diphthera is from a kind of T-TK-r type of the above root of kṣára and φθείρω phtheiro (like also δίψα dipsa "thirst"), then it could mean perhaps something "letters pressed down or crushed", meaning "sounds mute, silent".
About the meaning "silence" maybe there is a connection with Latin taceo
"(intransitive) I am silent, say nothing, hold my tongue"
From Proto-Italic *takēō, possibly from Proto-Indo-European *tak- or *tHk-. Akin to Gothic(þahan), Old Norse þegja (Danish tie and Icelandic þegja), Old High German dagen.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/taceo
I was wondering if there could be some comparable Sum. word with a "TKr" structure (like dʰgʷʰer-); one potential candidate is "tukur", with some meanings of destruction; not at all sure about this, yet I think this word must include a "thorn cluster" (like tuku, for example):
Good suggestion! :) .
Nostratic here; morphologically I think it fits; semantically it lacks the "flow" meaning, connected though to a notion of "crush":
Yeah :) .
If this word does include the "thorn cluste" mentioned above, then I think it could fit to the opposite meaning of अक्षर (akṣara, a-kṣara) "imperishable", "letter, vowel, sound, word"; in this case tukur could mean "destruction of sounds", then "silence"
:D ! .
In this case, if διψάρα dipsara / διφθέρα diphthera is from a kind of T-TK-r type of the above root of kṣára and φθείρω phtheiro (like also δίψα dipsa "thirst"), then it could mean perhaps something "letters pressed down or crushed", meaning "sounds mute, silent".
Beautiful! :) .
About the meaning "silence" maybe there is a connection with Latin taceo
"(intransitive) I am silent, say nothing, hold my tongue"
From Proto-Italic *takēō, possibly from Proto-Indo-European *tak- or *tHk-. Akin to Gothic(þahan), Old Norse þegja (Danish tie and Icelandic þegja), Old High German dagen.
Very interesting! :D .
Good morning, Nirjhar,
If "ibiza" is from the PS effect of the same "thorn cluster" TK of "tuku-r", I think that the PT one (like the φθ- phth- in φθείρω phtheiro) could be found perhaps in this Sum. word:
pad [BREAK] (56x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. pad "to break (into bits)" Akk. kasāpu
Or, according to Halloran (ed. 2006): pad, paðx: n., bite, small repast (regularly followed by ra2 and da; cf., bur and buru2) (sprout + repetitive processing) [? PAD archaic frequency: 38; concatenation of 2 sign variants].
v., to break off or into pieces.
This meaning of pad as "small repast" indicates a similarity with the root of "food", I think, which is ultimately, and interestingly, peh₂- "to protect"; like in पाति (pā́ti) (cl.2 P. root √pā); there is also a Gr. πατέομαι pateomai or πάσσομαι passomai "to eat":
(Pokorny's root pā- : pə- und pā-t- : pə-t-)
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1445
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/peh%E2%82%82-
or ruther peh₂- "to graze", like in "panis":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/panis
"Of uncertain origin. Usually explained as a derivation of Proto-Indo-European *peh₂- (“to graze”), via earlier *pāstnis (compare pāstillus (“cake, pastille”) and supine pāstum)."
I think that we have a kind of derivation like this: "break into pieces / gnaw, eat" - "graze / pasture" - "protecting (the pasture)".
Of course the KT evolvement of the "thorn cluster" about "crush / break" etc is Sum. kud [CUT](/kudr/) (1111x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Ebla, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium, unknown) wr. kud; gur5 "to break off, deduct; to separate, cut off; to cut; to incise; to decide; to make clear" Akk. harāşu; napādu; parāsu; harāşu; parāsu; harāşu
btw, there is a Gr. verb πατάσσω (patássō): "I knock, beat; (with accusative) I strike; I slaughter, kill; I afflic"; with no clear etymology (probably from "paták-yō").
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%AC%CF%83%CF%83%CF%89
f "ibiza" is from the PS effect of the same "thorn cluster" TK of "tuku-r", I think that the PT one (like the φθ- phth- in φθείρω phtheiro) could be found perhaps in this Sum. word
Very interesting .
I think that we have a kind of derivation like this: "break into pieces / gnaw, eat" - "graze / pasture" - "protecting (the pasture)".
A very nice proposal ! :) .
Of course the KT evolvement of the "thorn cluster" about "crush / break" etc is Sum. kud [CUT](/kudr/) (1111x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Ebla, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium, unknown) wr. kud; gur5 "to break off, deduct; to separate,
Yes :) .
btw, there is a Gr. verb πατάσσω (patássō): "I knock, beat; (with accusative) I strike; I slaughter, kill; I afflic"; with no clear etymology (probably from "paták-yō").
Nice :) .
Hi Nirjhar,
another similar Greek verb is παίω (paíō) "I strike, hit; I strike one thing against another; I drive away; (sexual intercourse) quotations; (figuratively) I quench my thirst;(intransitive) I strike against or upon; I devour"
From Proto-Indo-European *pēu-, *pyu-, *pū- (“to hit; to cut”). Cognates include Latin paviō. From Proto-Indo-European *paw- (“strike”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%B1%CE%AF%CF%89
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pavio#Latin
There is a question about its connection with παύω (paúō) "to make to cease, to stop" etc (like in "pause") From Proto-Indo-European *peh₂w-. Cognate with Old Armenian հաւ (haw, “beginning”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%B1%CF%8D%CF%89
becouse of the meanings "hit, cut etc" and "stop" (something like sil / silig in Sumerian); btw, this *peh₂w- is also the root of "small" etc ("hit-cut" < "pieces" > "small"), like in "few" or Lat. paurus, παῖς (paîs) / παῦς (paûs) "child":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-Euopean/peh%E2%82%82w-
So, maybe the "d" in "pawid / paid-" for "child" is just a reminiscent of a root including a "d" like in Sum. "pad"...
Strong possibility that :) .
For "crush, cut, hit" etc this was the PT part of a PT-R root (from TKR); now, the TR part of a PT-R root could be of course *ter "young, tender, weak" etc:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/ter-
Also, in case of a Pth-Th-R, perhaps Gr. θραύω (thraúō) "I crush, break (in pieces), shatter" etc could fit also, I think.
http://biblehub.com/greek/2352.htm
TR part of a PT-R root could be of course *ter "young, tender, weak" etc:
Yes :) .
in case of a Pth-Th-R, perhaps Gr. θραύω (thraúō) "I crush, break (in pieces), shatter" etc could fit also, I think.
Possible! :) .
I remembered Whittaker now; since there is also another Sum. tukur "heavy, important", which is close to "dugud" with the same meaning (maybe these are just two alternative spellings of the same root):
https://books.google.gr/books?id=kGUWu_91kOUC&pg=PA414&lpg=PA414&dq=Whittaker+dugud+tukur&source=bl&ots=Y9B-wFgUPn&sig=_IYS7W3M11f41N0wTki7ZAIKFdU&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiAg9LE0OvXAhVjKpoKHQoDBk0Q6AEIKzAB#v=onepage&q=Whittaker%20dugud%20tukur&f=false
If the spelling as (a)d/t-gu-ud is correct (so something like (a)TK-T and the final t (or r like in tukur) can be vocalized to 's', as Whittaker seems to suggest, maybe it is comparable to a Gr. word ἄχθος achthos "burden" (from **aTKs > **aKTs formation); like in σεισάχθεια seisachtheia "relief (lit. shaking") of burdens"; ἄχθος achthos looks like normal Greek but of not established etymology. Maybe the notions of "destructive" and "heavy, important" are connected.
About the KS formation of a possible "thorn cluster" here, there is also a Gr. word ᾰ̓́ξῐος (áxios) m (feminine ᾰ̓ξῐ́ᾱ, neuter ᾰ̓́ξῐον); first/second declension "counterbalancing, weighing as much as, of like value; worthy, fit"; it could fit also to an (a)TKr/t > (a)TKs, aKSs indic-like spelling, I think:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%84%CE%BE%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82
Etymology: From ἄγω (ágō) + -τιος (-tios), with the verb in the sense "draw down (in the scale)", hence "weigh, import".
That could lead us to think many things about the derivation of h₂eǵ root ;)
Btw, the sign of dugud "heavy etc" is also close to the sign for "black" (MI).
http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/dcclt/signlists/signlists/
Gr. word ἄχθος achthos "burden" (from **aTKs > **aKTs formation); like in σεισάχθεια seisachtheia "relief (lit. shaking") of burdens"; ἄχθος achthos looks like normal Greek but of not established etymology. Maybe the notions of "destructive" and "heavy, important" are connected.
I agree :) .
About the KS formation of a possible "thorn cluster" here, there is also a Gr. word ᾰ̓́ξῐος (áxios) m (feminine ᾰ̓ξῐ́ᾱ, neuter ᾰ̓́ξῐον); first/second declension "counterbalancing, weighing as much as, of like value; worthy, fit"; it could fit also to an (a)TKr/t > (a)TKs, aKSs indic-like spelling, I think:
Again a very interesting suggestion! :) .
That could lead us to think many things about the derivation of h₂eǵ root ;)
;) .
Btw, the sign of dugud "heavy etc" is also close to the sign for "black" (MI)
Interesting ! :) .
Next to *ter- there is also *terh₁- "to rub, turn" and one of its reflexes is τρώγω (trṓgō) "I chew, gnaw; I eat":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CF%81%CF%8E%CE%B3%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/terh%E2%82%81-
I would dare to say also that the PS formations of the TK cluster in "tukur" could be found in some of the peš words, like peš = "to slice", or even peš = "mouse"; maybe also peš = "thick, heavy" etc.
Also kišib for "mouse" could be a possible KS formation, like for example "the one which gnaws", "the one which destroys"; morphologically like kṣáp-:
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=ksap&direct=se
which, concerning at least the meaning "night" (here the connection to "black", concerning the logogramm of "dugud"; like "the one which gnaws, crushes, destroys the light" or "the one which falls like a heavy burden" perhaps?), has a root *kʷsep- - which is again strange for a "proto-indoeuropean" one ;)
Proto-IE: *kʷsep-
Meaning: darkness, dark
Hittite: ispant- c. 'Nacht' (Tischler 409ff)
Old Indian: kṣáp- (gen. kṣapáḥ), kṣapā́ f. `night'
Avestan: xšap- 'Dunkelheit'
Old Greek: pséphas, pséphos n. `Dunkel, Finsternis', psepharó- `dunkel, finster, wolkig'
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+642&root=config
btw the Greek reflexes of this root about "darkness", "night" etc is ψέφας psephas, ψέφος psephos; yet there are some words like κνέφας knephas or γνόφος gnophos with the same meaning, which seem to be perhaps of some *ken root (like "rub" etc); the ending "-ph" looks though like the one of νέφος nephos "cloud" (btw **nébʰos is another curious proto-root: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BD%CE%AD%CF%86%CE%BF%CF%82
The -p in kṣap- reminds the ending of a Gr. word (like τύπτω typto "hit"); it's κτύπος ktypos "crash, bang, din"; the verb is κτυπέω ktypeo (a kind of TK-P ? cluster, that could fit to this KS-P Sanskrit one)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dktu%2Fpos
btw, another word in Greek ψόφος psophos, meaning "any inarticulate sound, a sound, noise", is another with a "destroyed sound" meaning, I think; a kind of PSPh cluster, corresponding to a KSP.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dyo%2Ffos
I remembered now Sum. kišib [SEAL] (17468x: ED IIIb, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. kišib3; kišib; na4kišib "cylinder seal, sealed tablet" Akk. kunukku
again having to do, I think, with some tablet, like dipsara; it reminds क्षिप् kṣip "finger" (having also to do with meanings about "destruction", "night" etc, but mainly about "throwing"); reminds also Sum. kišib [HAND] (11x: Old Babylonian) wr. kišib-la2; kišib "hand, wrist" Akk. rittu
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=kSip&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
Obviously we could say the same things said above for kṣap-.
"kišib" reminded me also the word ξιφος xiphos "sword" in Greek, if you remember, or "iron hand" according Hesychius, another "ksi" Greek word ;)
As for the meaning "seal" the word σφραγίς sphragis "seal" in Greek is connected, if you remember, by some with a word σφάραγος spharagos, meaning again ψόφος "psophos" anarticulate noise, also throat, according to Hesychius.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*s111%3Aentry+group%3D174%3Aentry%3Dsfa%2Fragos
Again about áxios "counterbalancing, weighing as much as, of like value; worthy, fit" and the comparison with dugud "heavy, important" written with a logogramm similar to "night"; it reminded me the river Axios or Vardar, which, according to some view took its name from a root similar to Persian *axšaina- (compare Ossetian ӕхсин (æxsin)). May be cognate with English ash.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AE%D8%B4%DB%8C%D9%86
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vardar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonia_(kingdom)
Though others say it's from a word ἄξος axos meaning forest, according to Hesychius:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Da)%2Fcos
Other persian loanwords in Greek:
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/greece-xi-xii
I would dare to say also that the PS formations of the TK cluster in "tukur" could be found in some of the peš words, like peš = "to slice", or even peš = "mouse"; maybe also peš = "thick, heavy" etc.
:D
kišib for "mouse" could be a possible KS formation, like for example "the one which gnaws", "the one which destroys"; morphologically like kṣáp-:
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=ksap&direct=se
which, concerning at least the meaning "night" (here the connection to "black", concerning the logogramm of "dugud"; like "the one which gnaws, crushes, destroys the light" or "the one which falls like a heavy burden" perhaps?), has a root *kʷsep- - which is again strange for a "proto-indoeuropean" one ;)
Proto-IE: *kʷsep-
Meaning: darkness, dark
Yes I agree ! :) .
The -p in kṣap- reminds the ending of a Gr. word (like τύπτω typto "hit"); it's κτύπος ktypos "crash, bang, din"; the verb is κτυπέω ktypeo (a kind of TK-P ? cluster, that could fit to this KS-P Sanskrit one)
Yes .
btw, another word in Greek ψόφος psophos, meaning "any inarticulate sound, a sound, noise", is another with a "destroyed sound" meaning, I think; a kind of PSPh cluster, corresponding to a KSP.
Yes .
I think, with some tablet, like dipsara; it reminds क्षिप् kṣip "finger" (having also to do with meanings about "destruction", "night" etc, but mainly about "throwing"); reminds also Sum. kišib [HAND] (11x: Old Babylonian) wr. kišib-la2; kišib "hand, wrist" Akk. rittu
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=kSip&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
Obviously we could say the same things said above for kṣap-.
Yes I agree ! :).
As for the meaning "seal" the word σφραγίς sphragis "seal" in Greek is connected, if you remember, by some with a word σφάραγος spharagos, meaning again ψόφος "psophos" anarticulate noise, also throat, according to Hesychius.
Very interesting again.
Hi Nirjhar,
About the Gr. word for "finger" δάκτυλος dáktulos (daktylos) : "Uncertain. Possibly related to Latin digitus. Probably Pre-Greek. Note Boeotian δακκύλιος (dakkúlios). The sense "date" is probably a folk-etymological alteration of a word from a Semitic source such as دَقَل (daqal, “variety of date palm”) or דֶּקֶל (deqel, “date palm”)."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%CE%AC%CE%BA%CF%84%CF%85%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%82
According to the lexicon, the form dakkúlios indicates a "tk" formation again, like *datkulios. In my opinion, the da- excluded, this tkul- seems to be very close to Sum. tukul "stick; weapon" Akk. kakku" (or the *tuk-los of Whittaker)
maybe like in Sum. "si" for "finger" which means also "horn" (also "antenna" in Halloran).
About the Gr. word for "finger" δάκτυλος dáktulos (daktylos) : "Uncertain. Possibly related to Latin digitus. Probably Pre-Greek. Note Boeotian δακκύλιος (dakkúlios). The sense "date" is probably a folk-etymological alteration of a word from a Semitic source such as دَقَل (daqal, “variety of date palm”) or דֶּקֶל (deqel, “date palm”)."
Yup.
this tkul- seems to be very close to Sum. tukul "stick; weapon" Akk. kakku" (or the *tuk-los of Whittaker)
maybe like in Sum. "si" for "finger" which means also "horn" (also "antenna" in Halloran).
Its a very interesting hypothesis Kyriakos ! :D
:D then maybe this is a "Grecian" formation of the same "thorn cluster"; as ξυλον xulon is an Indic one :P ; maybe also this initial δα- da- is from some **gwa (like perhaps δίψα dipsa - di < gwi-; maybe also dipsara? - there is aSum. "da" = "writing board"...); then Akkadian kakku could be from the same "thorn cluster" (but as K-KK).
Yes :) .
Assuming a "destructive" meaning for "finger" (as also for "night"), I think that this -ap or -ip (in kṣap / kṣip) ending reminds me of the -ap- in δάπτω and Lat. daps, we have discusse already: "From Proto-Indo-European *dh₂ps (“portion, sacrificial meal”). Cognate with Ancient Greek δαπάνη (dapánē, “expenditure”), δάπτω (dáptō, “I devour”), Old Armenian տաւն (tawn, “feast”), Old Norse tafn (“sacrifice”). Akin to damnum (“loss, expense”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/daps
Very nice! :) .
Yeah, and this "ap" reminds again "water" (and "flowing", "perishable", "destruction" and such things ...)
I remember now that Mayrhofer was wondering if this ap for water is connected to the root of Lat. "acqua" "from Proto-Italic *akʷā, from Proto-Indo-European *h₂ekʷeh₂" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/acqua
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82%C3%A9k%CA%B7eh%E2%82%82
There is also a *h₁egʷʰ- "drink"; according to wikipedia though "The roots *h₂ep- (“(body of) water”) and *h₁egʷʰ- (“drink”) are probably unrelated (to *h₂ekʷeh₂)."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82%C3%A9k%CA%B7eh%E2%82%82
If this ap though (in water, or in daps, maybe, is connected to acqu-a, then we could have here also a p < kʷ.
Yeah, and this "ap" reminds again "water" (and "flowing", "perishable", "destruction" and such things ...)
Yes! :) .
I remember now that Mayrhofer was wondering if this ap for water is connected to the root of Lat. "acqua" "from Proto-Italic *akʷā, from Proto-Indo-European *h₂ekʷeh₂"
Yes it has sense.
If this ap though (in water, or in daps, maybe, is connected to acqu-a, then we could have here also a p < kʷ.
Of course! :) .
maybe also the supposed gʷa > da in daktylos is just a kind of the kʷa-n-kʷe that Giacomo has proposed for "five", meaning something like "five (little) sticks", like **gʷa-tkul-oi" > da-tkul-oi > daktyloi δάκτυλοι = "(5) sticks" = "fingers", ten δάκτυλος daktylos for "1 finger".
:D !
like the gʷam / dam as Dziebel has propoede fot damaris etc :D now, one senses that the word στῦλος (stûlos / stylos) "pillar, column, support; wooden pole; stile" could be somehow connected to "tukul" or maybe tutkul? > then tstul- > stul-? something like that...) ; even in its meaning, as "the stick one uses to write on a writing tablet" :p
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%84%E1%BF%A6%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%82
About kṣap "night" there is also the question of the comparison with this set of words:
ἕσπερος (hésperos) m, f (neuter ἕσπερον); second declension "of or at evening"
(masculine substantive) evening; (masculine substantive)" the evening star, Venus" (shortened form of ἕσπερος ἀστήρ (hésperos astḗr)); "western":
From *ϝέσπερος (*wésperos), from Proto-Indo-European *wek(ʷ)speros. Cognates include Latin vesper, Old Armenian գիշեր (gišer) and Old Church Slavonic вєчєръ (večerŭ).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%95%CF%83%CF%80%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
ἑσπέρα (hespéra) f (genitive ἑσπέρᾱς); first declension "evening; the west"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%91%CF%83%CF%80%CE%AD%CF%81%CE%B1#Ancient_Greek
Also, from the Hittite dictionary:
14.42 — NIGHT — Hitt. ispant- (and deified DIspant-, DIspanzasepa-), the normal term for ‘night’ (GE6[.KAM]), is thought to reflect *(k)spn̥t- or *(k)spon-t-, comparable with Skt. kṣap-, Av., OPers. xšap-, NPers. šab (*ksep-), Av. xšapar-, xšapan-, xšafn- (*ks[e]pr-/n-), and possibly also Lat. vesper, Gk. ἑσπέρα, W. ucher, OCS večerŭ, Arm. gišer ‘night, evening’ (e.g. Götze - Pedersen, MS 60; Goetze, Lg. 30 [1954]: 357; E. P. Hamp, Revue des études arméniennes N.S. 3 [1966]: 13.15). While agreement on the root is general, further formational details are in dispute; cf. P 431-35, T 409-11 and refs.
one senses that the word στῦλος (stûlos / stylos) "pillar, column, support; wooden pole; stile" could be somehow connected to "tukul" or maybe tutkul? > then tstul- > stul-? something like that...) ; even in its meaning, as "the stick one uses to write on a writing tablet" :p
Possible ! :) .
About kṣap "night" there is also the question of the comparison with this set of words:
Interesting .
About akṣara as "sacrifice" I was wondering also if it could be connected somehow to this Sum. word:
siškur [PRAYER] (1192x: Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. siškur2; siškur "prayer; blessing; offering, sacrifice, rites; to pour (a libation), sacrifice; to intercede" Akk. karābu; naqû; nīqu
siškur reminds of "tukur" (maybe as TTkur).
Very intriguing :) .
Here is also क्षिपति (kṣipáti) (root क्षिप्, class 6 P) "to throw, to fling; to cast off; to move hastily; to pass over": From Proto-Indo-European *kswipeti (“to shake, to cast off”). Cognates include English sweep, swoop and Ukrainian шибати (šybaty).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%95%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B7%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF
Root: *ksweybʰ- or *kʷsweybʰ- or *kʷseybʰ- "to move swiftly, make a swift movement; to swing, shake, to be swinging; to whip, cast, throw":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/ksweyb%CA%B0-
Another curious "proto-indoeuropean" root ;)
;)
About the "shake" part, I'm almost sure there is a connection with the "thorn cluster" of Sumerian tuku [ROCK] (33x: Old Babylonian) wr. tuku4; tu-ku "to rock, shift" Akk. nâšu
I think that in Edzard's Grammar it is found also as "tutk": so, "shake" like a weapon or stick etc, like tukul; also destructive as tukur... ;)
Yes, nice! :) .
Here (about the meaning "swift") is a "Pre-Greek" word:
αἶψα haipsa
Grammatical information: adv.
Meaning: `quickly, suddenly' (Il.)
Derivatives: αἰψηρός haipseros `quick' (Il.)
Origin: PG [a word of Pre-Greek origin]
Etymology: Sommer IF 11, 243 connected the word with αἰπύς (`steep', q.v.) as *αἰπ-σ-α; rather with Fur. 158 as a substr. word with lab. \/ ψ. Frisk added: "Hierher wohl auch αἴφνης aus *αἰπ-σ-νᾱ-ς." Fur. further connects ἐξαίφνης. ἐξαπίνης, ἄφαρ, ἄφνω; see Beekes, Pre-Greek.
http://etymology_el_en.enacademic.com/270/%CE%B1%E1%BC%B6%CF%88%CE%B1
"tutk" on page 76 (maru)
https://ia601905.us.archive.org/0/items/SumerianGrammarhdo/SumerianGrammar.pdf
I think that a part of this word (as a root) is found in Gr. σείω (seíō) "I shake, I agitate" etc From Proto-Indo-European *tweys-. Cognates include Sanskrit त्वेषति (tveṣati), Avestan (θvayah, “fright, fear”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CE%B5%CE%AF%CF%89
like in σεισμός seismos "shaking, earthquake" (also we found it is σεισάχθεια seisachtheia.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CE%B5%CE%B9%CF%83%CE%BC%CF%8C%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
I think that a part of this word (as a root) is found in Gr. σείω (seíō) "I shake, I agitate" etc From Proto-Indo-European *tweys-. Cognates include Sanskrit त्वेषति (tveṣati), Avestan (θvayah, “fright, fear”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CE%B5%CE%AF%CF%89
like in σεισμός seismos "shaking, earthquake" (also we found it is σεισάχθεια seisachtheia.
Very interesting :) .
btw the word for "throwing" in Greek is ῥίπτω (rhiptō < rhip-yō )"to throw, cast, hurl" etc - having a -p ending like kṣip has (something like WRP/HRP compared to KSP):
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dr(i%2Fptw
From Proto-Indo-European *wreyp- or *wriHp-, from *wer- (“to turn”).[1] like in Germ. werfen "throw" or in English "warp":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BF%A5%CE%AF%CF%80%CF%84%CF%89
https://www.etymonline.com/word/warp
So there is a notion of "turning" / "moving/flowing" ;)
The Sum. compsarison, if you rember, was to ri "to lay down, cast, place; to set in place, imbue; to lean on; to impose; to throw down; to release, let go; to walk along; to pour out; to lead away" (in maru is rig - most brobably the ending p of rhip- is a kw in this case, too...)
So there is a notion of "turning" / "moving/flowing" ;)
True :) .
The Sum. compsarison, if you rember, was to ri "to lay down, cast, place; to set in place, imbue; to lean on; to impose; to throw down; to release, let go; to walk along; to pour out; to lead away" (in maru is rig - most brobably the ending p of rhip- is a kw in this case, too...)
Yup! :) .
The Emesal word for dugud is "zebed", if you remember; it reminded me the name of Zebedee (from the Bible) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebedee
having to do with" bestowing, giving" but also with a meaning of "abundant".
it reminds me also this word sphAvayati "swell, increase, strenghthen, fatten, increase"
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=sphAvayati&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
Remembering also σφυδάω sphudaō and σφυδόω sphudoō "to be in full vigour or health" in Greek:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=sfu%5Edo%2Fw&la=greek&can=sfu%5Edo%2Fw0#lexicon
I am wondering now if kṣap "night" (as "dark") is comparable to the name of Σαπφώ Sapphō (or Ψάπφω Psapphō or Ψάπφα Psappha, in Aeolic) the poetess (meaning perhaps the "dark one"; it was said that her appearance was "small and dark".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sappho
About the connection dugud / tukur with peš, which we had already compared to Skrt. बहु (bahú) "much, many, frequent, abundant, numerous, great or considerable in quantity"
From Proto-Indo-European *bʰn̥ǵʰús (“thick”). Cognate with Avestan (bązah) and Ancient Greek παχύς (pakhús, “thick, large”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AC%E0%A4%B9%E0%A5%81#Sanskrit
As you saw above Whittaker's comparison for dugud / tukur was with a *tn̥gʰús "heavy" (I think the root of "thick" is meant here:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/t%C3%A9gus
a thorn cluster (TK < **KʷKʷ), which gave a kind of PK in Greek and Sanskrit (not very normal transformations for these languases, like KT or KS for example) and a PS in Avestan (where we would expect a S); so, in this case it didn't work as an actual thorn cluster; perhaps it was just a gʷ>d (kʷ>t) and gʷ>b (kʷ>p) process for the formation of these two similar roots.
Or perhaps there is another kind of explanation and I' saying random things again :)
So, it seems as if the "thorn cluster" does work (?) in the case of tukur, but not exactly (?) in dugud; yet, there is a derivation of roots here, too.
btw, the -gud part of dugud reminds all these other words we were talking about in Giacomo's posts, like gud = bull, gud = warrior, hero etc.
It seems that the root used by Whittaker for "dugud" wasn't that of "thick", but this one:
*tengh-
English meaning to extend, stretch, span
German meaning `ziehen, dehnen, spannen'
Grammatical comments
General comments ar. *thengh-, doch wohl trotzdem Erweiterung von ten-1 ds.
Derivatives tn̥ghu- `schwer'
Material Av. ϑang- (ϑanjasā̊ntē, ϑanjayentē, Partiz. ϑaxta-) `ziehen, Bogen spannen'; aber ϑanvarə, Abl. ϑanvanāt̲ `Bogen (als Schußwaffe)' nach Mayrhofer durch Kontamination mit *danvan- (= ai. dhánvan-, oben S. 234) entstanden; osset. t`ịnjịn `ausdehnen'; arm. t`anjr, Gen. t`anju `dicht, dick' (*tn̥ghi̯u-); lat. tēmō, -ōnis m. `Deichsel' (*tenksmō); aksl. *tęgnǫti `ziehen', rastęgǫ, rastęšti `distrahere', russ. tugój `straff, fest, stark, schwer', poln. tęgi ds., aksl. tǫga `συνοχή, περίστασις', slov. tǫ́ga `Trägheit, Schwermut' usw.; die Bed. `schwer' auch in slav. *tęgъkъ: aksl. otęgъčiti `βαρεῖν', tęžьkъ `βαρύς', tęgostь `βάρος', tęgota ds. usw.; auch aksl. istęsklъ `emaceratus, tabidus', istęsknǫti `tabescere' mit sk-Suffix; hierher aksl. tęža `Rechtsstreit'; lit. tingùs `träge' (= slav. *tęgъ in tęgostь usw., und: aisl. þungr), tìngiu, tingė́ti `träge, unlustig sein', tìng-stu, -au, -ti `träge werden'; aisl. þungr `schwer', þunge m. `Bürde, Last', þyngia `beschweren', þyngð `Unannehmlichkeit, Verlegenheit', þyngsl `Kummer, Bedrängnis'; ahd. dīhsala, ags. þīxl, aisl. þīsl `Deichsel' (urgerm. *þenχslō eig. `Zugstange'); toch. A täṅk-, В tank- `hindern'.
References WP. I 726 f., WH. II. 658, Trautmann 318, Vasmer 3, 166.
See also
Pages 1067
Here is also an interesting article about the IE roots meaning "dense":
https://www.academia.edu/3824125/Several_Indo-European_Words_for_Dense_and_Their_Etymologies
having to do with" bestowing, giving" but also with a meaning of "abundant".
it reminds me also this word sphAvayati "swell, increase, strenghthen, fatten, increase"
Remembering also σφυδάω sphudaō and σφυδόω sphudoō "to be in full vigour or health" in Greek:
Looks good they :) .
I am wondering now if kṣap "night" (as "dark") is comparable to the name of Σαπφώ Sapphō (or Ψάπφω Psapphō or Ψάπφα Psappha, in Aeolic) the poetess (meaning perhaps the "dark one"; it was said that her appearance was "small and dark".
Yes,bright suggestion ! :) .
(TK < **KʷKʷ), which gave a kind of PK in Greek and Sanskrit (not very normal transformations for these languases, like KT or KS for example) and a PS in Avestan (where we would expect a S); so, in this case it didn't work as an actual thorn cluster; perhaps it was just a gʷ>d (kʷ>t) and gʷ>b (kʷ>p) process for the formation of these two similar roots.
Very interesting again :) .
, the -gud part of dugud reminds all these other words we were talking about in Giacomo's posts, like gud = bull, gud = warrior, hero etc.
Yeah :D .
Here is also an interesting article about the IE roots meaning "dense":
Thanks ! :) .
Hi Nirjhar,
A zero grade *d(h)bh-n̥gh-u- for bahu etc, as it is proposed in this article, seems a bit odd; yet the proposed *h2mgh-u- ‘narrow’ (Skr.amhú-, Goth. aggwus ‘narrow’, Gr.αυχήν aukhen ‘neck’ fits good, I think, to Sum. gu [NECK] (753x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. gu2 "bank, side; neck" Akk. ahu "arm, side, bank"; kišādu "neck; bank"; tikku "neck"; especially the Akkadian ahu seems quite close...
I agree Kyriakos :) .
A labiovelar in the g of dugud ( > zebed in Emesal, g/b) seems to fit to the IE root for "cattle, ox, cow" (gud in Sumerian)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/g%CA%B7%E1%B9%93ws
but not to the comparison with *d(h)bh-n̥gh-u- (gh/gw?) :/ (unless we are missing something here ...)
Meanwhile, in Greek there is not only παχύς pakhys "fat" etc but also ταχύς takhys "fast", which is supposed to be of one of these roots mentioned in this article (*dʰengʰ/ dhn̥gh-):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CE%B1%CF%87%CF%8D%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
Proto-Indo-European *dʰn̥gʰ-, zero-grade of *dʰengʰ-.
It seems though that there are some problems with θᾱ́σσων (thā́ssōn) m, f (neuter θᾶσσον), the comparative degree of ταχύς ("faster"), of no clear etymology:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B8%CE%AC%CF%83%CF%83%CF%89%CE%BD
So this etymology of ταχύς is in doubt; Starostin does not include it in his comparisons; the root also is different, *(a)denǝgh- "to reach, to seize, to have time"; I've noticed that it includes a word ὀδάξ odax `with the teeth, to clench ones teeth' etc
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2Fdata%2Fie%2Fpiet&text_number=1887&root=config
Supposed by some as being of pre-Hellenic origin again. ;)
https://translate.academic.ru/%E1%BD%80%CE%B4%CE%AC%CE%BE/el/xx/
Since this word is about "biting, gnawing, scratching" and such destructive things, it could match perhaps to a dugud / tukur equation, even in "gnawing", I think. In any case, there is also a Sum. word dag [DEMOLISH] (15x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. dag "to demolish; to scratch; overthrow, military repulse" Akk. naqāru; sukuptu.
Halloran says also "to stretch (out); to roam about" for dag; that could fit also to odax; and it has made me to remember again about δάξα daxa for "sea" (especially because of the meaning of "stretching", maybe also "menacing"); also, if we translitarate it as "daksa", this fits again to an Indic-like word, I think. :D
Here also kṣip- is compared to a Gr. word κραιπνός kraipnos "swift, rapid, impetuous" etc ( ksip / kraip ?)
https://books.google.gr/books?id=KphVAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA134&lpg=PA134&dq=ksipani+etymology+sanskrit&source=bl&ots=hyK3KKbj6Z&sig=OPx2Yu94TGcuva3eyudzfR5riXo&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjrvu-yxvDXAhUSYVAKHaVxD3QQ6AEIMTAB#v=onepage&q=ksipani%20etymology%20sanskrit&f=false
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%B9%CF%80%CE%BD%CF%8C%CF%82
Supposed by some as being of pre-Hellenic origin again. ;)
Yes ;) .
Since this word is about "biting, gnawing, scratching" and such destructive things, it could match perhaps to a dugud / tukur equation, even in "gnawing", I think. In any case, there is also a Sum. word dag [DEMOLISH] (15x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. dag "to demolish; to scratch; overthrow, military repulse" Akk. naqāru; sukuptu.
Halloran says also "to stretch (out); to roam about" for dag; that could fit also to odax; and it has made me to remember again about δάξα daxa for "sea" (especially because of the meaning of "stretching", maybe also "menacing"); also, if we translitarate it as "daksa", this fits again to an Indic-like word, I think. :D
:D ! .
( ksip / kraip ?)
Interesting this! :) .
Yeah, this ksip/kraip reminded me the presence of the "r" in this ossetian word äxsirf "sickle", compared by many with Gr. ξιφος xiphos "sword"; also I remember the possibility of Gr. xiphos beeing (at least initially) a kind of javelin or throwstick; we have discussed about all these things almost two years ago, at Giacomo's 3rd Sumerian post.
BTW, this must be the 1000th posting on this post of yours :)
About Gr. ρίπτω rhipto "to throw" (most probably from rip-yo <*wer-b, like warp, Germ. werfen "throw" etc), I think we must try a derivation from the **kʷer/kʷel root for "moving", since we must certainly be consistent to our assumptions about the *wer and *wel roots ("to turn") as derived from this same **kʷer/kʷel root); so I think we must assume here a doubled word, using the "r" form, to indicate again a "turning / throwing"; something like *kʷer/kʷ(er); then we could have perhaps a KRT word, if the first kʷ is somehow delabialized / vocalized, and the second kʷ is turned into a "t" (kʷ>t); I mean a KRT word like in Sumerian gurud "to throw"; now, if the first k we assume to have been dropped (because of a kind of lenition perhaps, as the assumption is about kʷer > *wer), then we could have a second form wer/kʷ > werp ( p wrip > rip-); or something like that; in Sumerian we have also this rig/ri (the g intead of a p, like in rip), if this comparison is correct; as in gurud, assuming some types with gʷ instead of kʷ, though a g could be also spelled as a k in Sumerian.
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