Also, since the connection of the double *kʷe(r) root to a "thorn cluster" is evident :D (assuming the kʷkʷ = TK equation, if you remember; the TK-R of "tukur" is just a kind of Kr-T in that sense, like KrT-KrT = TKr-TKr; also the meaning of "perish, perishable" and such things must be a result of some "violent moving" and throwing is also a "violent circular movement"); then I think that a "ksip" word could be a result of a trippled kʷ(e)r, in a way like [kʷ(er)/kʷer/kʷ(er)> *kʷkʷerkʷ-, turning (for phonetic reasons) the first "kʷkʷ" into a "thorn cluster" TK, while the last letter kʷ turned into a p (kʷ>p, as assumed already); so the final result could be a TK(r)P, then in the Indic-like tranformation KSrP (that's why the KSr- part looks like ksura), so we have finally a KSrP > ksarp/ksirp word and then just ksip for "throwing, swift, sudden" etc. Not sure, it's just my idea for now...
Yeah, this ksip/kraip reminded me the presence of the "r" in this ossetian word äxsirf "sickle", compared by many with Gr. ξιφος xiphos "sword"; also I remember the possibility of Gr. xiphos beeing (at least initially) a kind of javelin or throwstick; we have discussed about all these things almost two years ago, at Giacomo's 3rd Sumerian post.
Yeah :) .
BTW, this must be the 1000th posting on this post of yours :)
Its just the beginning ! :) . I think we must try a derivation from the **kʷer/kʷel root for "moving", since we must certainly be consistent to our assumptions about the *wer and *wel roots ("to turn") as derived from this same **kʷer/kʷel root); so I think we must assume here a doubled word, using the "r" form, to indicate again a "turning / throwing"; something like *kʷer/kʷ(er); then we could have perhaps a KRT word, if the first kʷ is somehow delabialized / vocalized, and the second kʷ is turned into a "t" (kʷ>t); I mean a KRT word like in Sumerian gurud "to throw"; now, if the first k we assume to have been dropped (because of a kind of lenition perhaps, as the assumption is about kʷer > *wer), then we could have a second form wer/kʷ > werp ( p wrip > rip-); or something like that; in Sumerian we have also this rig/ri (the g intead of a p, like in rip), if this comparison is correct; as in gurud, assuming some types with gʷ instead of kʷ, though a g could be also spelled as a k in Sumerian.
I agree ! .
a "ksip" word could be a result of a trippled kʷ(e)r, in a way like [kʷ(er)/kʷer/kʷ(er)> *kʷkʷerkʷ-, turning (for phonetic reasons) the first "kʷkʷ" into a "thorn cluster" TK, while the last letter kʷ turned into a p (kʷ>p, as assumed already); so the final result could be a TK(r)P, then in the Indic-like tranformation KSrP (that's why the KSr- part looks like ksura), so we have finally a KSrP > ksarp/ksirp word and then just ksip for "throwing, swift, sudden" etc.
:) About the meaning "cut" (also "gur" in Sumerian, like in circle) one can guess that a KSrP root could produce also words like "sharp" etc; so, I think that the *(s)ker and *(s)kel roots (with all their -b and -d or -t suffixes) could be also derived by a similar way (maybe because of a metahesis like KS > SK). Maybe also a doubled (k)ʷer/k(ʷer) (to move, to make) could produce the werg' root of "work" etc. In Greek, for example, we have also a word "ῥέζω (rhézō) (poetic)(transitive) to do, make; to perform sacrifices; to do something to someone (with two accusatives);(intransitive) to act (as opposed to speaking or being acted on) From Proto-Indo-European *wréǵ-ye-, a ye-present from *wreǵ-, a metathesis of *werǵ-, the root of ἔργον (érgon) and ἔρδω (érdō)." (*wreb- is also the assumed for for ρίπτω rhipto "to throw" from *wer-b-): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BF%A5%CE%AD%CE%B6%CF%89 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/w%C3%A9r%C7%B5om
Also this tn̥ghu- etc for "thick" (compared with Sum. dugud)from *tengh- "to extend, stretch, span, pull" etc, are ultimately from *ten "to stretch" etc, so, since we assumed a *ten < **kwen in this case, that could explain a connection to *ken style roots; also perhaps some Gr. forms like κνέφας knephas or δνόφος dnophos for "darkness" apart from ψέφας psephas, assumed by Pokorny from kʷsep- (?) "dark" Material Ai. kṣáp, kṣapā́ `Nacht', av. xšap- `Dunkelheit'; gr. ψέφας, ψέφος n. `Dunkel', ψεφαρός, ψεφηνός `dunkel'; κνέφας `Dunkel'; δνόφος `Finsternis', später γνόφος ds., hom. δνοφερός `dunkel', ἰοδνεφής `dunkelviolett'; ζόφος `Dunkel', ζοφερός `dunkel'.Der wechselnde gr. Anlaut beruht auf Tabu-Vorstellungen.
Hi again Nirjhar, Another extension of the *wer root of ρίπτω rhipto "to throw" (< *wre-b < *wer-b) is the *wer-ĝh- root 'to turn, wrench' https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/2159 Also the 3e. u̯er-, u̯er-g̑h- 'to turn, press, wring, strangle' https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/2160
This last one (u̯er-g̑h-) has an interesting nasalised form: *u̯renĝh-, with a controversial Gr. adverb ῥίμφα rhimpha "lightly, swiftly" as from "turning itsel" (*u̯renghu̯-, Schwyzer Gr. Gr. 1, 302) `rasch, behende' (`sich drehend'); ahd. (ge)ringi `leicht', afries. ring, mndl. gheringhe, mnd. mhd. (ge)ringi `leicht, schnell bereit'...
ToB has a separate Proto-IE: *wringʷh- Meaning: quick Old Greek: rhímpha `schnell' [fast] Germanic: *ringi- ~ *wr-
And this reminds also kSipaNi "move speadily" / kSip "to throw" (the connection of kSip and rhipto we discussed above).
Now, another interesting thing is that in Sumerian the word kaš "runner, trotter, messenger; to run" is written with the sign "kaš4" which happens to be identical with the sign "rim4" (as in the word barim, wr. bar-rim4; barim "dry land"); in Halloran, also, is stated > rim4: (cf., kaš4)
Sum. kaš, if you remember, we have compared with Skrt. kaStha, and kaS "rub, scratch, itch" which is according to Mayrhofer, from karS "draw, tract, plough", ultimately with *kʷel / kʷer root (there is no need to distinguish between these -l and -r endings, I think); we compared these roots also to *k'ers = to run etc, most probably from Sanskrit); we can add also kSip- and kSipaNi here.
So, since the sign of kaš4 is identical to rim4 (most probably meaning also the same thing "swiftness - running" etc - btw there is also a word im2 "to run", written with this same sign, also gir5) and the IE comparisons of kaš4 seem to be derived from kʷer as the ones of rim4 are to *wer, I think that this is another indication for a connection of these roots kʷer and *wer. ;)
Also, the connection of "swift, run" and "throwing" plus the reference of Sum. im, have made me think again about Gr. hiemi ἵημι "I release, let go; (of sounds) I utter, speak, say; I throw, shoot, hurl; (of water) I let flow, flow, spout forth; I send; (middle) I speed myself, hasten; (middle, with infinitive) I am eager, I desire (to do something); (middle, with genitive) I am set upon, long for" : From Proto-Hellenic *yiyēmi, reduplicated present of Proto-Indo-European *(H)yeh₁- (“to throw”). Compare Latin iaciō. This has been connected with Hittite i̯e "to do, make", but that hypothesis is rejected by Kloekhorst 2008.
According to the Hittite Vocabulary: 9.11 — DO, MAKE — iya- is the basic verb meaning ‘make’ and ‘do’. Besides the common iter. essa- (P 300-5, T 111-12), related forms include Luw. a(y)a-, Hier. a(i)a-, Lyc. a-, and Lyd. i-. The most plausible etymology connects iya- with Toch. yām- ‘make’ (H. Holma, Journal de la Société finno-ougrienne 33.1 [1916]: 23-24). Beyond this widely accepted collocation, many other attempts have been made which are semantically doubtful, mostly involving IE *yē- ‘throw’ (IEW 502). Further linking of Skt. yam- ‘hold’ (e.g. Watkins, Idg. Gr. III/1: 71) is also questionable, and identification with H. iya- ‘go’ (10.47; e.g. Hrozný, SH 153) is generally rejected (cf. T 338-43, P 335-47). Abandoning this approach altogether, V. Machek (Die Sprache 4 [1958]: 79; approved of in P 346) saw iya- as a verbalization of the pronominal stem a- ‘it’ (< *e-/o-), thus ‘(do) it’, by the same process as in anniya- work’.
About Toch yām = "do, commit, make, effect", the Tocharian B Lexicon: "Etymology uncertain. Certainly to be rejected is VW's suggestion (644-645) that yām- is a borrowing from Sanskrit yam- ‘hold, sustain, tame’ and Tch yäm- ‘achieve, attain,’ q.v. However, it is possible to see in PTch *yām- an ō-grade iterative-intensive to this root. Certainly a semantic connection between ‘attain, achieve’ and ‘do, make’ makes eminent sense (P:505; MA:170-271). The relationship between "basic" yäm- and iterative-intensive yām- may be paralleled by näk- ‘destroy,’ nāk- ‘blame,’ and tsäk- ‘burn,’ tsāk- ‘illuminate.’ All six of these verbs have athematic (Class I) subjunctives and Class III preterites; For yām- one should note TchA preterite yāmäs; the TchB preterite yāmäṣṣā- is clearly secondary to the present yāmäsk'ä/e-. (With different morphological relations between the paired roots with short and long vowels are plätk-/plātk- ‘arise, develop’/‘spread (out),’ wäsk-/wāsk- ‘move,’ TchA räp-/TchB rāp- ‘dig, plow,’ klutk-/klautk- ‘turn/turn into,’ and lit-/lait- ‘pass on, move’/‘depart.’) Another possibility is that AB yām- reflects a PIE *yoh1-m- from *yeh1- ‘throw; put [by throwing]’ (P:502) with an -m- élargissement as perhaps in ṣäm-. For the o-grade of *yoh1m- one might compare English do, etc. from *dheh1-. Such an analysis connects this word with the other forms of ‘do, make’ in TchA, namely ya- and ypa- which are from yeh1- and possibly *pi-yeh1- (with metathesis) respectively. This connection for yām- goes back originally to Benveniste (1936:235). For a discussion of PIE *yeh1- ‘do,’ see Adams (1987b). See also yāmätstse, -yāmi, yāmor, and possibly yäm-.
The connection about words for "throwing" and "doing" reminds again the kwer / wer-g relation, I think.
Sum. kaš, if you remember, we have compared with Skrt. kaStha, and kaS "rub, scratch, itch" which is according to Mayrhofer, from karS "draw, tract, plough", ultimately with *kʷel / kʷer root (there is no need to distinguish between these -l and -r endings, I think); we compared these roots also to *k'ers = to run etc, most probably from Sanskrit); we can add also kSip- and kSipaNi here.
Yup :) .
since the sign of kaš4 is identical to rim4 (most probably meaning also the same thing "swiftness - running" etc - btw there is also a word im2 "to run", written with this same sign, also gir5) and the IE comparisons of kaš4 seem to be derived from kʷer as the ones of rim4 are to *wer, I think that this is another indication for a connection of these roots kʷer and *wer. ;)
Yes , beautiful :) .
the connection of "swift, run" and "throwing" plus the reference of Sum. im, have made me think again about Gr. hiemi ἵημι "I release, let go; (of sounds) I utter, speak, say; I throw, shoot, hurl; (of water) I let flow, flow, spout forth; I send; (middle) I speed myself, hasten; (middle, with infinitive) I am eager, I desire (to do something); (middle, with genitive) I am set upon, long for" :
Very interesting :) .
The connection about words for "throwing" and "doing" reminds again the kwer / wer-g relation, I think.
Hi Nirjhar, I was thinking today of something else; about Sum. dugud etc; Halloran includes also a meaning "(rain) cloud" for "dugud"; which, I think, connects it to Sum. "dungu", a word we have compared at Giacomo's posts to the root *dʰengʰ- "to cover, to overcast ": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/d%CA%B0eng%CA%B0-
which is compatible to *tn̥ghu- "thick" etc (from *tengh-), compared also to Sum. dugud,; also, another case is the Sum. word aĝar [RAINSHOWER] wr. aĝar5; aĝar6 "rainshower, downpour" Akk. rādu"; its writing "aĝar6" is in the reality IM.DUGUD (the signs of im "rain" and dugud "heavy"; hence the meaning "rain-cloud" in Halloran); so dugud (which is connected to tukur) is also connected with dungu (the nasal is interestingly preserved in this Sum. word).
Now, if there is also a connection of dugud "heavy" with the word for "cattle, ox" (gud, as from du-gud), we have to assume a g < **gw - for the g of dugud. In this case, since the IM.DUGUD writing is for aĝar "rain-shower", I was thinking about a connection with ὄμβρος ombros "storm, rain" etc: "Has traditionally been connected to Sanskrit अभ्र (abhrá), Latin imber, and Old Armenian ամբ (amb), but formal derivation from Proto-Indo-European *n̥bʰrós presents several problems. *n̥, *bʰ would be expected to yield ᾰ, φ (a, ph), and accent would likely be on the ultima. Also see ἀφρός (aphrós, “foam”)."
n̥bʰrós here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/n%CC%A5b%CA%B0r%C3%B3s PIE *n̥bʰrós/*n̥bʰrís "rain-cloud, rain, cloud" is probably a zero-grade derivative of *nebʰ-, the root that also gave *nébʰos. However, that derivative remains a bit problematic because beside clearly matching Sanskrit, Avestan, Latin and Armenian cognates there are formal problems with Ancient Greek ὄμβρος (ómbros) with problematic initial ο- and the cluster -μβ- (proper Greek reflex after the expected assimilation of *n to *m to the following labial would be -μφ-), as well as with ἀφρός (aphrós, “foam”), which does formally provide a perfect match, but is usually dropped from consideration due to heavy semantical mismatch (cf. Beekes, Frisk 1960:197 etc.). abʰrás here https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-Iranian/ab%CA%B0r%C3%A1s
Since "ombros" for "rain, storm" maust be from a labiovelar like on-gw-ros > om-b-ros, I was thinking about the possibility of a potential on-gw(h)-ro > om-bʰ-ros and then om-b-ros, and so about the potential of a "bh" from a previous gwh < gw(h) for these words. (The other option for "ombros" is perhaps an "om-ros" like in gambros, supposed from gam-ros; yet in case, at least, of ombros this seems odd).
a word we have compared at Giacomo's posts to the root *dʰengʰ- "to cover, to overcast
Yes :) .
so dugud (which is connected to tukur) is also connected with dungu (the nasal is interestingly preserved in this Sum. word).
Yes :) .
I was thinking about a connection with ὄμβρος ombros "storm, rain" etc: "Has traditionally been connected to Sanskrit अभ्र (abhrá), Latin imber, and Old Armenian ամբ (amb), but formal derivation from Proto-Indo-European *n̥bʰrós presents several problems. *n̥, *bʰ would be expected to yield ᾰ, φ (a, ph), and accent would likely be on the ultima. Also see ἀφρός (aphrós, “foam”)."
:D .
I was thinking about the possibility of a potential on-gw(h)-ro > om-bʰ-ros and then om-b-ros, and so about the potential of a "bh" from a previous gwh < gw(h) for these words.
:D the interesting outcome of this assumption is that the root *nebh https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/neb%CA%B0- is connected (through a possible kind of **-n(e)gw(h)- to the *dʰengʰ- root for "cover" etc (connected with dungu/dugud) - that fits perhaps also to dnophos etc (with the initial d)we were talking about before...
Not to say about a closeness of this form with "niger" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/niger#Latin and some notions of "dark, night" (together with covering... , like kSap etc) :)
The notion of "dung" could fit also to the "cattle" btw :P Yet, the g (or k) of γνόφος gnophos and κνέφας knephas for "darkness" requires also an initial **gw > d (to connect also with δνόφος dnophos); so we must re-write this assumed form into something like **gw(e)-n(e)gw(h)-[os] (We must follow also the assumption of a *ten- **kwen- (and also a **g(e)n < **gwen); like for example in the root fr "five" etc).
For kSap (and possibly ψέφας psephas) (< **KSrP) we most probably require just an additional initial **kwe- or **gwe (to create the TK>PS effect - since we are dealing with a doubled / trippled root here) and an "r" resonant, instead of an "n" (I think).
We have also Sum. kukku [DARK] (63x: Old Babylonian) wr. ku10-ku10; kukku5 "(to be) dark" Akk. da'āmu; also kukku [DARK PLACES] (6x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. kukku2 "dark places" Akk. eklētu. Also giggi [BLACK] (941x: ED IIIa, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium) wr. giggi; gi6-gi6 "(to be) black" Akk. şalmu (The gi6 sign is also very close to the sign of dugud, if you notice).
There is also, as you remember, kukku [LAND] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. kukku3(|KI.KI|) "land"; the several dh and gh (like in dheghom > TK-m etc, for "land, earth") I understand that they must be somehow from some de-labialized dwh and gwh; though I'm not sure why. I think, though, that at least for *ken and *ten roots, we could assume a derivation from a **kwen one.
Not sure, but about sukud [HEIGHT](/sukudr/)(227x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. sukud "height, altitude" Akk. mēlû "height, attitude", do you think that this "sukudr" could be comparable with क्षत्रिय (kṣatriya)? maybe as metathesized > k(u)sudr?
Akkadian mēlû [SUKUD :] "height, altitude ; ascent, way up ; step of staircase, of ladder ; hill, high place" http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=2480&language=id seems to be connected to Meluhha, I believe.
Yes :) but what about the proposed connection with mleccha? also, I guess that a metathesized k(u)sudr looks more like ksudra or shudra :/ (kudr is the word for "cut")
Maybe they are some kind of euphemisms. What is the root od shudra? Also I haven't understood why they use a term like "high realm" for this land of Indus Valley. About mleccha, there is a Gr. βλάξ blax "stupid", it's from the root of μαλακός malakos "soft"; I'm not sure if it is related though.
No one knows for sure , I remember Giacomo compared with kSudra and the word generally replaces the dasa of Vedas , which meant 'servant,slave, hostile enemy,non-virtuous people' etc .
Yes , use of high realm is strange , unless it meant in the sense of high status or something like that .
About the etymology of mleccha , I would like to know what Mayrhofer say . But a connection with mala 'dirt , filth , dust , impurity (physical and moral) AV. &c. &c. ; (in med.) any bodily excretion or secretion (esp. those of the Dha1tus q.v. , described as phlegm from chyle , bile from the blood ' etc is possible. In this case the 'impurity' of trading cities and their people is suggestible, as they didn't follow the rites and codes of Brahmans .
This seems related : ''mlech (= %{mlich}) cl. 1. P. (Dha1tup. vii , 25) %{mlecchati} (Gr. also pf. %{mimleccha} fut. %{mlecchitA} &c. ; Ved. inf. %{mlecchitavai} Pat.) , to speak indistinctly (like a foreigner or barbarian who does not speak Sanskr2it) S3Br. MBh.: Caus. or cl. 10. P. %{mlecchayati} id. Dha1tup. xxxii , 120.''
I now think that kṣatriya and shudra may haven't come from same root :/ . But we will see :) ...
About mleccha Mayrhofer excludes any derivation from some name of any foreign people of land (he mentions on that, specifically, the name of Meluhha); he mentions also an old comparison with Lat. blaesus, Gr. βλαισός "lisping, stammering" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/blaesus
About sukudr, I think that Whittaker had proposed a comparison with an IE *seǵʰ-os from the root of Gr. ἔχω (ékhō) I have, possess, contain, own, I hold fast, grip (with infinitive) I have means to do, I am able, I have to; also (middle) I hold myself fast etc., etc. From Proto-Indo-European *seǵʰ-. Cognates include Mycenaean Greek 𐀁𐀐 (e-ke), Sanskrit सहते (sahate) and Old English siġe.
Here is a famous warrior-(son of a)king from the Iliad, Nirjhar, from the same root seǵʰ:
"In Greek, Héktōr is a derivative of the verb ἔχειν ékhein, archaic form *ἕχειν hékhein, 'to have' or 'to hold' from Proto-Indo-European *seǵh- 'to hold'... Héktōr, or Éktōr as found in Aeolic poetry, is also an epithet of Zeus in his capacity as 'he who holds [everything together]'. Hector's name could thus be taken to mean 'holding fast'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hector
If you compare Hektor (let's say *Sektor) with Sum. sukudr, you'll find it matches almost perfectly (as a kind of "Sokotr" / "Soktor"). It could match also kṣatriya I think; certainly the "dr" part match perfectly to -tr(-iya); the kṣa- part (from the TK thorn cluster) corresponds, as we have seen, to Sum. "tuku"; so the question is, if there is a relation (which I think it does) between the tuku word and the suku- of sukudr. :) (BTW the u/o of the Sumerian, instead of some a/e, reminds me of the Khotanese noγor instead of nagar :D )
About kṣudra, Mayrhofer has it together with kSodas "rushing water, waters in agitation" and such thinkg like melting, shaking, grinding, pounding, shattering, making little etc:
It remindes me a bit Gr. σαθρός sathros 'unsound, broken, broke, unhealthy, weak' (IA.). http://etymology_el_en.enacademic.com/6157/%CF%83%CE%B1%CE%B8%CF%81%E1%BD%B9%CF%82
Searching about kṣudra at the Tocharian Lexico, I found another word:
lykaśke (adj.) (a) ‘small’; (b) ‘fine’ [adv. = ‘finely’] [m: lykaśke, -, lykaśkeṃ//] [f: //lykaśkana, -, -] (a) käskaññītär-ne waiptār āśce po lykaśke ‘his head was scattered far and wide in little pieces’ (22b5), [kos] lykaśke aknātsaññe tsankan-me tot lykaśkana lwāsane cmelñe mäsketär-me ‘however little, ignorance arises to them, so their birth is among little animals’ (575b4/5), lykaśkana śikṣapātänta ‘the lesser precepts’ [lykaśkana = BHS kṣudrakānuk ṣudraka-] (PK-AS-18B-b1 [Pinault, 1984b]); (b) onkolm=eñcwañña waltsanoy-n=āsta lykaśke ‘an iron she-elephant ground his bones fine’ (22b4), aśāwe lykiśke rūp ‘a form rough and fine’ (192b3), läksañana misa lykaśke kekarśwa ‘fish meat finely chopped’ (P-1a1). ∎TchA lykäly ‘id.’ and B lykaśke show the same PTch *lyäk- extended by different diminutive suffixes (-ly from PIE *-li- or *-lyo; -śke from *-ḱiko-). VW (1941:59, 1976:273) connects *lyäk- with PIE *legwh- ‘light’ but the absence of a -w- in Tocharian (e.g. *lykwaśke) is hard to explain. Better, with Duchesne-Guillemin (1941:160), to connect this word with Greek olígos ‘few, small,’ Albanian lig ‘bad, evil; thin,’ Lithuanian ligà ‘illness,’ Latvian liga ‘severe illness, pestilence.’ Cf. also Old Irish līach ‘suffering, unfortunate,’ Lithuanian nu-líegti ‘fall ill,’ and Greek loigós (with loss of *h3- as sometimes before *-o-) ‘ruin, harm, death’ (cf. P:667; MA:516).
the comparison is to this Sum. word: lugud [SHORT] (115x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. lugud2; lugud3 "(to be) short; (to be) tight; (to be) short of breath" Akk. kurû
Another potential Gr. word for kSudra perhaps could be ἐχθρός (ekhthrós) m (feminine ἐχθρᾱ́, neuter ἐχθρόν); first/second declension; (with passive meaning) hated, hateful; (with active meaning) hating, hostile [+dative or genitive = to someone or something] (masculine or feminine, as substantive) enemy; (ἐχθρόν ἐστι (ekhthrón esti), impersonal) it is displeasing, distasteful, unpleasant [+dative = for someone], [+infinitive = to do] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%90%CF%87%CE%B8%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%82
Yes, I was thinking also the same; maybe we also could compare with some "sig" Sumerian words... :)
Yup :) .
If you compare Hektor (let's say *Sektor) with Sum. sukudr, you'll find it matches almost perfectly (as a kind of "Sokotr" / "Soktor"). It could match also kṣatriya I think; certainly the "dr" part match perfectly to -tr(-iya); the kṣa- part (from the TK thorn cluster) corresponds, as we have seen, to Sum. "tuku"; so the question is, if there is a relation (which I think it does) between the tuku word and the suku- of sukudr. :) (BTW the u/o of the Sumerian, instead of some a/e, reminds me of the Khotanese noγor instead of nagar :D )
Beautiful Kyriakos! :) .
It remindes me a bit Gr. σαθρός sathros 'unsound, broken, broke, unhealthy, weak' (IA.).
Quite interesting! :) .
Searching about kṣudra at the Tocharian Lexico, I found another word:
Fine comparison again :) .
Another potential Gr. word for kSudra perhaps could be ἐχθρός (ekhthrós) m (feminine ἐχθρᾱ́, neuter ἐχθρόν);
Hi Nirjhar, About the meaning "high, hight, high place" etc, I was thinking today that another word which is often compared to *seǵʰ (thogh others reject this comparison) is ὄχθη okhthe, ἡ, (fem.) older form of ὄχθος okhthos = A.any height or rising ground, natural or artificial, bank, dyke by the side of a river,mostly in pl., raised banks of a river, in full, he raised banks of the trench, dykes, also of rising banks at a little distance from a river; ὄχθη okhthe is distd. as the bank of a river, from ὄχθος okthos a hill".
"school" is also from the same root :) (from a notion of "gaining time (for learning etc)": From Middle English scole, from Old English scōl (“place of education”), possibly from Proto-Germanic *skōla (“school”), from Late Latin schola, scola (“learned discussion or dissertation, lecture, school”), from Ancient Greek σχολεῖον (skholeîon), from σχολή (skholḗ, “spare time, leisure", later, "conversations and the knowledge gained through them during free time; the places where these conversations took place”), from Proto-Indo-European *seǵhe-, *sǵhē- (“to hold, have, possess”). Compare Old Frisian skūle, schūle (West Frisian skoalle, Saterland Frisian Skoule, “school”), Dutch school (“school”), German Low German School (“school”), Old High German scuola (“school”), Old Norse skōli (“school”). Influenced in some senses by Middle English schole (“group of persons, host, company”), from Middle Dutch scole (“multitude, troop, band”). See school1. Related also to Old High German sigi (German Sieg, “victory”), Old English siġe, sigor (“victory”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/school
German "Sieg" from this same root means "victory" and the other word for posession niĝ I though it was comperad to Gr. νίκη nike "victory", also connected to a notion of holding, possesion and gaining.
niĝ [THING] (1641x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium) wr. niĝ2; aĝ2 (ES) "thing, possesion; something" Akk. bušu "goods"; mimma "anything, something".
On the other hand, from seǵʰ- there is also a word ἐχυ^ρ-ός ekhuros (ekhyros), ά, όν, （ἔχω ekho）or ὀχυρός okhuros "strong, secure" (usually also for "stronghold"):
So, I guess now :D if we put this ὀχυρ- "okhur-" (or, better, used the 2 "o" of okthos for the "raised bank" etc) we could have a word like "okhor", which looks very close to the Khotanese noγόρ (without the "n"), which seems to fi quite well to our comparison for nagar /agar :)
There is also a word μόχθος mokthos 1 = μόγος mogos "toil, hard work hardship, distress, trouble", which looks like okhthos "hill, raised bank", but with an "m". Maybe there is a connection.
sometimes connected with this word "myakSati": http://www.spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=myakS&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3 Anyway, Halloran connects "hardship" with "fortress": bad4: "fortress; hardship, difficulty; inarable land"
The adjective is μοχθηρός mokhtheros voc. μόχθηρε, not μοχθηρέ I.suffering hardship, in sore distress, miserable, wretched, Aesch., Ar., etc.; μοχθηρὰ τλῆναι to suffer hardships, Aesch. 2.in a bad state, in sorry plight, worthless, Ar., Plat., etc.:—adv., μοχθηρῶς διακεῖσθαι to be in a sorry plight, Plat.; so in comp., μοχθηροτέρως ἔχειν id=Plat.; -ότερον Xen.:—Sup. -ότατα Plat. II.in moral sense, wicked, knavish, rascally, Lat. pravus, Thuc., Ar., etc.
I think that a Sum. word resembling okthe "any height or rising ground, natural or artificial, bank, dyke by the side of a river,mostly in pl., raised banks of a river etc" could be this one:
eg [LEVEE] (627x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. eg2; iku2 "levee" Akk. Akk. īku "dyke, ditch".ETCSL: eg2=embankment.
supposing from a word like ékh-ein < hékh-ein < *seǵh-. Hesychius has also a type ἔγμεν égmen for ἔχειν ékhein. Also ἔγμα égma = ὀχύρωμα okhuroma ("stronghold") στῦλος stylos ("pillar"). http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*e%3Aentry+group%3D14%3Aentry%3De%29%2Fgma
There is also a Glso ἔχμα ékhma < 1 ἔχω ékho, means "that which holds; and so, I.a hindrance, obstacle, Il. 2.c. gen. a bulwark, defence against a thing, c. gen., Hhymn. II.a hold-fast, stay, ἔχματα πέτρης ekhmata petres bands of rock, Il.; ἔχματα πύργων ekhmata purgon stays of the towers, id=Il.; ἔχματα νηῶν ekhmata neeoon props for the ships, to keep them upright, id=Il.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3De)%2Fxma it is a prolific verb :)
I think that if we consider the equation tukur / dugud (or else the TKR/TKT) we could understand that the KSOD (let's say KS-T) is the equivalent (after the KS = TK thorn cluster) of TK-T, like in dugud TKT) and so of tukur > KSAY - kSinati, phtheiro, etc - the other KSAY being the root of rulership, power, holding etc kSatra etc, in Gr, ktaomai "to hold" etc.
About *seǵʰ, Mayrhofer refers to the opinions of some scholars about its relation to KSAY root for "rulership" etc, through some form sǵʰe- like in Gr. σχέτλιος skhetlios "I.of persons, properly, unwearying, σχέτλιος ἐσσι Il. 2.in bad sense, unflinching, cruel, merciless, Hom.: —so in attic, wicked, Dem., etc.:—of beasts, savage, Hdt. 3.like τλήμων, miserable, wretched, unhappy, Aesch., Eur.; often with a notion of contempt, ὦ σχετλιώτατε ἀνδρῶν O most wretched fool" etc
Mayrhofer states, though, "not preferable" about these opinions; yet I think there could be a connection to seǵʰ, lets say SK. SK looks, indeed, like an inversed KS of KS-AY, and since the KS corresponds to the TK of the "thorn cluster", according to Kloekhorst, then this SK could correspond to the, also inversed, KT of Gr. ktaomai "to hold, to possess"; so this could be an intermediate form, between the traditional Indic and Greek forms, let's say.
I think also that the connection of a TK word to a SK one is evident in the cases of "tukur" as "silence" (according to Halloran) and "sig" silence (like in Gr. σιγή sige etc).
About the nig word for possesion etc, my first impression is that it looks like en inversed ken (kin) root (like KN/NK), which seems to be interwine with the TK cluster in words like Hit. tekan for "earth" or Gr. teknon for "offspring, child". My assumption is that, since this "evidence" of the "possesion" words seems to be of a correspondance between the SK/NK types and the SK (of segh) seems also to be an inversed KS, corresponding (the SK), as it was said, to the KT (inversed TK), then we must expect also some connection between the ken roots (KN) and the TK (thorn clusters).
supposing from a word like ékh-ein < hékh-ein < *seǵh-. Hesychius has also a type ἔγμεν égmen for ἔχειν ékhein. Also ἔγμα égma = ὀχύρωμα okhuroma ("stronghold") στῦλος stylos ("pillar").
I agree :) .
it is a prolific verb :)
True :) .
I think that if we consider the equation tukur / dugud (or else the TKR/TKT) we could understand that the KSOD (let's say KS-T) is the equivalent (after the KS = TK thorn cluster) of TK-T, like in dugud TKT) and so of tukur > KSAY - kSinati, phtheiro, etc - the other KSAY being the root of rulership, power, holding etc kSatra etc, in Gr, ktaomai "to hold" etc.
Very nice concept :) .
Mayrhofer states, though, "not preferable" about these opinions; yet I think there could be a connection to seǵʰ, lets say SK. SK looks, indeed, like an inversed KS of KS-AY, and since the KS corresponds to the TK of the "thorn cluster", according to Kloekhorst, then this SK could correspond to the, also inversed, KT of Gr. ktaomai "to hold, to possess"; so this could be an intermediate form, between the traditional Indic and Greek forms, let's say.
I think also that the connection of a TK word to a SK one is evident in the cases of "tukur" as "silence" (according to Halloran) and "sig" silence (like in Gr. σιγή sige etc).
I agree with you :) .
since this "evidence" of the "possesion" words seems to be of a correspondance between the SK/NK types and the SK (of segh) seems also to be an inversed KS, corresponding (the SK), as it was said, to the KT (inversed TK), then we must expect also some connection between the ken roots (KN) and the TK (thorn clusters).
Hello Nirjhar, I was wondering today about some relation of *seǵh- with some SK, let's say, Sum. words, like for example this one: sug [STAND] (21x: ED IIIb, Old Babylonian) wr. sug2 "plural stem of gub[to stand]" Akk. uzuzzu Since ἔγμα égma ( < *seǵh-), according to Hesychius, means also στῦλος stylos ("pillar"), which, according to some scholars, is from the root of "stand" steh₂- (like in Kurdish: stûn “column, pillar”): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/steh%E2%82%82-
The other word gub [STAND] (5043x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. gub "to stand; (to be) assigned (to a task)" Akk. izuzzu, was connected by Bomhard, if you remember, to the root about "head" etc, like in Gr. κεφᾰλή (kephalḗ) f (genitive κεφᾰλῆς); first declension Wikipedia has an article on: head; a person's life (often in the sense of being in danger, similar to the English idiom "head is on the line"); the top-most part; the most important part etc. From Proto-Indo-European *ǵʰebʰ-l-.
So, since "sug" is the plural stem of "gub" and gub is supposed to be connected with "head" (like ǵʰeb), also sug is to *seǵh, then seǵh could be also connected to this Sum. word: saĝ [HEAD] (3582x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. saĝ "head; person; capital" Akk. qaqqadu; rēšu :D
Also, saĝ is nasalized; that leads to think also about the possible connection of *seǵh- to saĝa "priest", connected to the root of the (also nasalized) "sanctus"; root is *seh₂k-, mostly in Italic, but also in Anatolian. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/seh%E2%82%82k-
If you remember this Sum. gub reminded me a Gr. word κυπάρισσος kuparissos "cypress" (possibly something like a "tree standing upright"); kupari- also reminds of a upari with an initial "k-".
There is also Skt. kakubh with meanings like "splendour", "beauty", "peak", "summit" etc; also kakubha "distinguished", "superior", "lofty" etc. http://sanskritdictionary.com/?q=kakubh http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=kakubh&direct=au
According to Mayrhofer kakubh is IE; there is a"vague", as he notes, comparison to Gr. κυφός kuphós, “bent forward", apparently as ka-kubh- (the verb is κύπτω (kúptō) "to bend forward, stoop down" etc.
Also, according to J. Halloran's Sumerian Lexicon (ed. 2006) gub has the following meanings: gub [DU] (-ba): to stand; to be present; to appear (in court); to be stored; to stand on (with -ni-); to set, erect, install, appoint (singular); to set down in writing; to stand by, to serve (with -da-); to serve somebody (with dative verbal prefix); to do service (with -ši-); to stand aside (with -ta-) (suppletion class verb: singular stem; cf. sug2) (to be long and throat-like in open container).
It looks to include notions like serve, set down etc, which could be compatible, I think, also with a meaning "bent down" (in a sense, this seems like the similarity of "kSatriya" and "kSudra" we've noticed before).
Another interesting thing is that in Akkadian the equivalent of saĝ "head etc" is qaqqadu "head", which looks like kakubh-; it has a version as kakud- one of its meanings is "hump".
Here is the ToB Semitic comparisons about the Akkadian word for "head": (Proto-Semitic: *ḳVdḳVd- Afroasiatic etymology: Afroasiatic etymology Meaning: skull, head Akkadian: ḳaḳḳadu 'head' OA, OB on [CAD ḳ 100], [AHw 899] Eblaitic: gag-gú-tum /ḳaḳḳudum/ [Kr 12-13; Bl E 59] Ugaritic: ḳdḳd 'Scheitel, Haupt' [Aist 247] Hebrew: ḳodḳōd 'skull' [KB 1071] (<*ḳudḳud-) Judaic Aramaic: ḳodḳǝdā, ḳodḳōdā 'head, skull, vertex' [Ja 1317]; ḳwdḳd [Sok 478] Modern Aramaic: (?) MLH kotke 'Schädel' [J Mlah 180]. Can it be eventually from *ḳVdḳVd-?
Arabic: muḳadd- 'le derrière de la tête et du cou comprise entre les deux oreilles' [BK 2 683] Harari: ēḳäd 'front, forward, chief, head' [LHar 30] (<*ʔV-ḳad, with the prefix?) Notes: A reduplicated stem in all SEM except ARB (a secondary formation) and HAR (likely preserving a non-reduplicated stem, though with the ʔV- prefix). Note ETH EAST: SEL WOL ZWY ḳädä 'forward, in front of, before' [LGur 472], with a current semantic shift 'head' > 'front' (see HAR below); according to Leslau, from ḳdm 'to advance, to be first, etc.' with a strange explanation "with loss of m through spirantization" [Holma 11]: AKK,HBR [KB 1071]: HBR,JUD,UGR,AKK,
Finally, according to Hesychius is κύφερον ἢ κυφήν kupheron or kuphen = κεφαλήν kephalen (Akkusative) = head; Nominative = κύφερος kupheros or κυφή kuphe "head" (according to the Creatans).
According to Mayrhofer kakubh is IE; there is a"vague", as he notes, comparison to Gr. κυφός kuphós, “bent forward", apparently as ka-kubh- (the verb is κύπτω (kúptō) "to bend forward, stoop down" etc.
Also, according to J. Halloran's Sumerian Lexicon (ed. 2006) gub has the following meanings: gub [DU] (-ba): to stand; to be present; to appear (in court); to be stored; to stand on (with -ni-); to set, erect, install, appoint (singular); to set down in writing; to stand by, to serve (with -da-); to serve somebody (with dative verbal prefix); to do service (with -ši-); to stand aside (with -ta-) (suppletion class verb: singular stem; cf. sug2) (to be long and throat-like in open container).
It looks to include notions like serve, set down etc, which could be compatible, I think, also with a meaning "bent down" (in a sense, this seems like the similarity of "kSatriya" and "kSudra" we've noticed before).
Another interesting thing is that in Akkadian the equivalent of saĝ "head etc" is qaqqadu "head", which looks like kakubh-; it has a version as kakud- one of its meanings is "hump".
Finally, according to Hesychius is κύφερον ἢ κυφήν kupheron or kuphen = κεφαλήν kephalen (Akkusative) = head; Nominative = κύφερος kupheros or κυφή kuphe "head" (according to the Creatans).
Hello Nirjhar, Searching about the cognates of κεφαλή kephale, one finds also the Tocharian spal "head": cephalo- before vowels, cephal-, word-forming element meaning "head, skull, brain," Modern Latin combining form of Greek kephale "head, uppermost or top part, source," from PIE *ghebh-el- (source also of Tocharian spal "head;" Old High German gebal "skull;" also, via the notion of "front," Gothic gibla, Old Norse gafl "side of a facade").
https://www.etymonline.com/word/cephalo-
Also, from Tocharian B Lexicon: śpālu* (adj.) ‘superior, excellent’ [//-, śāluwentaṃts, -] śpaluwentats ywa/// (91b2). A derivative (PIE *-went-) from PTch *śpāl (gender uncertain) ‘head’ preserved as such in Tocharian A. The Tocharian forms are descendants of PIE *ghebh-(e)l- ‘head’ [: Greek kephalē ‘head,’ Gothic gibla ‘gable, pinnacle,’ OHG gibil (m.) ‘gable,’ gebal (m.) ‘cranium, head,’ Old Norse gafle (m.) ‘gableside, point of an island’ (P:423; MA:260)] (Schulze, 1923, VW:488). VW cogently suggests *ghebhōl (a nominative singular) as the preform of PTch *śpāl. Alternatively one might reconstruct with Lubotsky (1988:142) *ghébhhal-om (Tch) ~ *ghebhhal-éha- (Greek). See also śpālmeṃ and śpālmäññe... śpālmeṃ ([indeclinable] adj.) ‘superior, excellent’ .... śpālmäññe (n.) ‘excellence’.
I am thinking now that, since from a KP-L root like in kephale we can have a SP-L one (like in Tocharian spal), we could also perhaps explain in a similar way the gub/sug alternation in Sumerian - the b/g is not such a big deal, I think, we have seen it many times before.
I am thinking now that, since from a KP-L root like in kephale we can have a SP-L one (like in Tocharian spal), we could also perhaps explain in a similar way the gub/sug alternation in Sumerian - the b/g is not such a big deal, I think, we have seen it many times before.
Another thing that I cannot but mention :) is the similarity of this root *ghebh-el- with Sum. gibil meaning "new, fresh" also "sprout" at ePSD, but also "burning, glowing" etc in Halloran; a word looking like "gigir" "chariot", thought to be connected to the root of κύκλος kyklos etc "circle"; if you remember I was thinking that gibil was about circle again (like "new" could be from a ne- turn etc); so now I'm thinking that maybe *ghebh-el- is for "up" and "down" (as a wheel turning up and down), maybe the -el is only for "up, over" as the "-er/ -ar" of hyper / upari is for "up / over"; maybe "upo" is of the same protoform together with ka-kubh and kypto (but without a k): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/upo
:D Sum bil (and gibil) is for "burning, glowing" etc; and in IE there are words like φλόξ phlox "flame" or φλέγμα phlegma from *bhel, with a -g-ma, like PL-K which is like the KP-L of kephale, if you say KPL-KPL > PL-K/PL-K, so it may may mean that the fire goes above (or something like that). From Proto-Indo-European *bʰel-. Cognates include Sanskrit भर्ग (bharga) and Latin flagrō https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CE%BB%CE%AD%CE%B3%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
there is also the case of Gr. ὕψος hypsos (hupsos) height, the top, summit, high position,, grandeur, pride" From ῠ̔́ψῐ (húpsi, “aloft”), probably related to ὑπέρ (hupér, “above”). there is a problem with this -s- in hupsos; for ῠ̔́ψι hupsi wikipedia gives this curious root *h₃ewps-: From zero grade of Proto-Indo-European *h₃ewps-; cognate with Old Irish úas (“above”)
Frisk, in his etymolical dictionary, states that at the end this hypsi is from ὕπο hypo, hyper ὕπερ etc he mentions some celtic words, also russian vysók ‘hoch’ (*ūpso-), lat. sus- < *sub-s- (wie abs-) in sustineō u.a. several hypotheses have be made about this "s"; maybe it is a kind of k like a ky = s (hyps- < upky- , like upk/upk < kup/kup, I mean, maybe it was a kup- instead of up-) :D
About saĝ "head", there are also meanings about "serve" etc, according to Halloran's Lexicon: saĝ, sa12: head; leader (of the herd); person, individual; slave; servant (esp. of a god or a king) subtitute; point; front top or beginning (of a tablet); short side (of a field) in OS texts; present, gift..... adj., first, first-class, prime. prep., in front
It fits to the notion of ekhein "to possess, to hold" (something like "to hold / possess someone", but also to "hold f.ex. my head up, to be prominent" etc. Hesychius has a word διάγγαρον diangaron = δικέφαλον dikephalon, meaning "with two heads" http://dge.cchs.csic.es/xdge/%E2%80%A0%CE%B4%CE%B9%E1%BD%B1%CE%B3%CE%B3%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%87 I imagine that the -ang part could be from some similar root to saĝ (sang), then perhaps sang / (h)ang > ang- ; it looks also very much like angaria "service" and angaros "messanger" etc. "https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%84%CE%B3%CE%B3%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
Another interesting thing is that the sign of gub "stand" is the same with the one of ĝen = "to run, to flow" (the "sug" sign is a doubled gub); that could indicate the notion that "standing" is also about "being ready to serve someone".
I imagine that the -ang part could be from some similar root to saĝ (sang), then perhaps sang / (h)ang > ang- ; it looks also very much like angaria "service" and angaros "messanger" etc.
Yes I understand :) .
Another interesting thing is that the sign of gub "stand" is the same with the one of ĝen = "to run, to flow" (the "sug" sign is a doubled gub); that could indicate the notion that "standing" is also about "being ready to serve someone".
Lovely :) .
About a connection perhaps to the meaning of "running, flowing" concerning also saĝ, there is a river Sangarios in Phrygia:
Hello Nirjhar, An example of a "sig" word, concerning the comparison with *seǵh-: sig [CAST] (836x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. sig10 "to cast; to fashion" Akk. šapāku "to heap up; pour on" (šapāku was also the Ak. equivalent of dub, for its meaning as "to pile up"). with Gr. σχῆμα skhema, like in "scheme" (< *seǵh-); from skhein, aorist tense of ekhein "to hold" etc; I think that the notion about heap up etc is close to the one we're talked about, the raised banks, "egma" etc, generally to raise or to fashion some kind of construction, to hold something solidly together, to form or to give shape to something etc.
scheme: 1550s, "figure of speech," from Medieval Latin schema "shape, figure, form, appearance; figure of speech; posture in dancing," from Greek skhema (genitive skhematos) "figure, appearance, the nature of a thing," related to skhein "to get," and ekhein "to have, hold; be in a given state or condition," from PIE root *segh- "to hold." https://www.etymonline.com/word/scheme
σχῆμα 1 σχεῖν
1.like Lat. habitus, form, shape, figure, Eur., Ar., etc.; as a periphr., σχῆμα πέτρας ῀ πέτρα, Soph.; σχ. δόμων Eur. 2.form, figure, appearance, as opp. to the reality: a show, pretence, Thuc.; ἔχει τι σχῆμα Eur. 3.the bearing, look, air, mien of a person, Hdt., Soph.: in pl. gestures, Xen. 4.the fashion, manner, way of a thing, σχ. στολῆς fashion of dress, Soph.; σχ. βίου, μάχης Eur.: absol. dress, equipment, Ar., Plat. 5.the form, character, characteristic property of a thing, Thuc.; βασιλείας σχ. the form of monarchy, Arist. 6.a figure in dancing, Ar.: in pl. pantomimic gestures, postures, id=Ar., etc. 1 σχῆμα, ατος, τό,
Maybe *seǵh fits also to this Sum. word: sig [TIE] (91x: ED IIIb, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. sa2; sig9 "to tie (shoes)" Akk. šênu as "to hold something together"; maybe there is a relation to Skrt. saha, sahita etc, like "together with", "joined" etc http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=saha&direct=se http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=sahi&direct=se
In Giacomo's list exists of course "Sum. sig 'to cast, pour on', PIE *sikw- 'to spill, pour', Skt. sic- 'to pour, discharge, to cast metal', seka 'pouring out, sprinkling', Av. haek- 'to pour out (water)', fra-hik/šik- 'to sprinkle, to cast metal', OHG sīhan 'to pour through a sieve'." which fits perhaps better:
I checked the meanings of šapāku at the Lexicon: šapāku [DUB :] (once [LAL :]) ... 1) to heap up ; 2) deities on earth ... : to pour on / to lavish , liquid, molten metal ... : to pour ; 3) stative : clouds, grain ... : are piled up , are hoarded ; 4) OA : to invest capital ; 5) Gtn : to keep pouring , to pour in various places during a ritual ... ; 6) Gt : OA : to deposit in store / to store metal, textiles ... ; 7) D : corpses, grain, oil ... : to pile up , to heap up , to cast / to pour bronze ; 8) N ; passive of G : to be prostrated subjects , to be limp limbs ... ;
about "pouring, sprinkling" etc *seikw fits better, yet maybe *seǵh is better for "pile up/ heap up / fashion" - of course there is a possibility of the connection between the roots...
I think that the notion about heap up etc is close to the one we're talked about, the raised banks, "egma" etc, generally to raise or to fashion some kind of construction, to hold something solidly together, to form or to give shape to something etc. Nice, yes :) .
maybe there is a relation to Skrt. saha, sahita etc, like "together with", "joined" etc
Nice comparison :) .
of course there is a possibility of the connection between the roots...
Hi Nirjhar, another comparison I could think of: Sum. se [LIVE] (116x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian) wr. se12; ze2; še "plural stem of til[to live]" and TchA śo- and B śāw- "to live" TchA śo- and B śāw- reflect PTch *śāw- from PIE *gwyeh3-w-e/o- [: Greek zōō from *gwyeh3-(y)e/o-] or, with *-w- but with zero-grade, Latin vīvere, Sanskrit jīvati, Avestan jvaiti, OCS živǫ (further, morphologically more distant, cognates at P:467-469; MA:356)] (Smith, 1910:16, Meillet, 1914:16, VW:484-485, though differing in details). (Cf. also the exact equation between TchB śaiyye and Greek zō(i)on.) See also śaul, śaumo, śāmane, śaiyye, śaiṣṣe, śamaśke.
there must be a connection to the "notion" of moving, like in Latin vivo: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/g%CA%B7%C3%ADh%E2%82%83weti
se is also the "plural stem" of lug "dwell": se [DWELL] (55x: ED IIIb, unknown) wr. se12; še; ze2 "plural stem of lug[to dwell]" which is perhaps expected, since til must be connected to *kʷel / *kʷil (as already assumed), meaning "live, dwell" in this case; perhaps there is a connection between *kʷel and gʷeyh₃-.
Yes I think you suggested this beautiful suggestion before :) .
there must be a connection to the "notion" of moving, like in Latin vivo: Yes very practical .
which is perhaps expected, since til must be connected to *kʷel / *kʷil (as already assumed), meaning "live, dwell" in this case; perhaps there is a connection between *kʷel and gʷeyh₃-.
Since we are looking the Tocharian now, how about this comparison: Sum. siki [HAIR] (4753x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. siki "wool, fleece; hair; (animal's) pelt" Akk. šārtu; šīpātu I think it resembles to Tocharian A śāku ‘headhair.’; there is also a Tocharian B' yok2 (nnt.) (a) ‘hair [both a single hair and collective]’; (b) [either singular or plural] ‘wool’ ; though these two words seem to be unrelated, according to the lexicon :/ Here: https://www.jstor.org/stable/40848704?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
Also here: śāku (A): “pelo de la cabeza”, < *dek̑- “pelo” [< “hilo”], cf. sáns. daśā- “flequillo”, ing. tail “cola”, gót. tagl “un solo pelo”. yok (AB): “vello corporal, lana”, < *yók̑u “vello corporal, esp. de animales”, cf. sáns. yā́su “± vello púbico”, arm. asr “lana”. (in Italian) from here: https://minerva.usc.es/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10347/13056/2013-2014%20Carballosa%20Calleja;jsessionid=20915BA3D8846F6A3213A63099A931D9?sequence=1
The proposed root of Pokorny is dek̂-2 (: dok̂-, dēk̂-) "to tear"; it is the root of "tail": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tail it includes also a Skrt. word daśā (apparently about threads hung at the skirt or fringe of a cloth) Material Ai. daśā `die am Ende eines Gewebes hervorragenden Zettelfäden, Fransen'; ir. dūal `Locke'(*dok̂lo-); got. tagl n. `einzelnes Haar', anord. tagl n. `die Haare im Pferdeschwanz', ags. tægl (engl. tail) m. `Schwanz', ahd. zagel `Schwanz, Stachel, männliches Glied, Rute'; got.tahjan `reißen, zerren', distahjan `zerstreuen', isl. tæeja, tāa `karden', norw. dial. tæja (*tahjan) und taa (*tahōn) `fasern, zerreißen'; anord. tāg, Pl. tǣger und tāgar f. `Faser', mhd. zāch, zāhe f. `Docht, Lunte'; in anderer Bed. (`zerrend - ziehend, hinausziehend') norw. mdartl. taag `langsam und andauernd', mnd. tēge, ostfries. tāge `zähe' und ahd. zag `zögernd, unentschlossen, zaghaft' wozu zagēn `verzagt und unentschlossen sein'; vielleicht hierher als `woran man sich reißt' oder `abgerissenes, rissiges Stück', mhd. zacke m. f., nhd. Zacke, mengl. takke `fibula', engl. tack `Stift, kleiner Nagel', mit anderem Auslaut tagg, tagge m. `hervorragende Spitze, Zacke'; oder gehört Zacke zu lett. dęgums `Nase, Schuhspitze'? References WP. I 785. See also S. auch unter denk̂-. Pages 191
Since we are looking the Tocharian now, how about this comparison:
That's a very good comparison :) .Do you think this is related ? : '' keza 1 m. (%{kliz} Un2. ; ifc. %{A} or %{I} Pa1n2. 4-1 , 54) the hair of the head AV. VS. S3Br. &c. ; the mane (of a horse or lion) MB'' http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=kesha&direct=au looks also like Turkish saç "hair" (of the head):
True :) .
The proposed root of Pokorny is dek̂-2 (: dok̂-, dēk̂-) "to tear"; it is the root of "tail"
keza (as Lat. caesaries) was compared with kezer [HAIR] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. ki-ze2-er "a hair-style" / kezer [HAIRSTYLE] (2x: Old Babylonian) wr. ke-ze2-er "hairstyle", wasn't it? maybe it is the same word upside down? :D This root dek̂-2 looks like the root of "ten". Do you think there is a connection to Sum. "si" for "horn", but also "finger"? :D
Also assuming again the evident :D kʷkʷ = TK equation, remembering also after Ceasar (and caesaries), also another famous old Latin person, Cincinattus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Quinctius_Cincinnatus From Latin cincinnus (“a lock of hair”) From Ancient Greek κῐ́κῐννος (kíkinnos), "a lock of curly hair, a ringlet" > from Proto-Indo-European *kenk-. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cincinnus#Latin *kenk- looks like this nasalised denk̂-.:)
I read also at Mayrhofer's lemma about "kakubh" that it is formed in the same way with Latin acumen "sharp point": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/acumen
About kesa, Mayrhofer states that it is dificcult to be disconnected from Av. gaesa "curly hair etc". gaesa is from *ghait-ā, -es- (like Gr. χαίτη khaite "curly hair, mane") English meaning curly or wavy hair Material Von *ghait-[e]s- aus: av. gaēsa- m. `Kraushaar, Lockenhaar', npers. gēs `herabhängende Haare, Locken', av. gaēsu- `kraushaarig, lockenhaarig; (beim Kamel:) zottelhaarig'; gr. χαίτη `Lockenhaar, frei herabwallendes Haar; Mähne (von Pferden, Löwen); Baumbart'; dazu wohl der maked. PN Γαιτέας; mir. gaīset f. (aus *ghait-s-) `steifes Haar, Borste'.
About kesara, he notes that the old connection with caesaries is not without problem; he tolds about the RUKI rule in -esar- concluding a derivation from *kesra (though there is also some other opinions); then he says that kesara cannot be totally disconnected from kesa.
Do you think that Sum. sisi for "horse" could be connected to a notion of "mane" perhaps? Also in Greek, as you know, horse is ἵππος hippos; that hip- is for sikw- normally.
ἵππος hippos: from Proto-Hellenic *íkkʷos (compare Mycenaean Greek 𐀂𐀦 (i-qo)), from Proto-Indo-European *h₁éḱwos, from *h₁oh₁ḱu- (“swift”). Unexplained is ἱ (hi) for ἐ (e). Cognates include Sanskrit अश्व (áśva), Latin equus, Gaulish epos, Old Armenian էշ (ēš, “donkey”) and Old English eoh.
Do you think that Sum. sisi for "horse" could be connected to a notion of "mane" perhaps? Also in Greek, as you know, horse is ἵππος hippos; that hip- is for sikw- normally.
Nirjhar, is something I just am thinking right now; they don't sound very normal, yet here are they: If the word for for "horse" was initially a "TK" like "thorn cluster" word, then the closest word I can imagine in Greek is this word ταχύς takhus "fast, swift", we were talked about before (since another word ὠκύς okus etc is also said to be somehow connected with "equus"); maybe this takh- is a (semi) Indic-like version of a kind of **teg/**d(h)eg (or **tig/**d(h)ig) word (unless we say just **tag/dhag like Giacomo would say or **tig) meaning something like "mane" from a notion "pointed" (something like takhus from **dh/tak(h)wus? or **dh/tik(h)wus? for "mane-animal" in "horse"? - meaning then just "swift"?"); then the d(h)/t was vanished in the word for "horse"? leaving a h (perhaps like in dkmtom > hekaton, as Kloekhorst says? or, maybe, turned to an "s" perhaps as in the Tocharian word for mane/hair? and then dissapeared? :/
Anyway, there is also this root for a word "pointed" but also "horse" etc: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpokorny&text_number=+631&root=config
maybe this takh- is a (semi) Indic-like version of a kind of **teg/**d(h)eg (or **tig/**d(h)ig) word (unless we say just **tag/dhag like Giacomo would say or **tig) meaning something like "mane" from a notion "pointed" (something like takhus from **dh/tak(h)wus? or **dh/tik(h)wus? for "mane-animal" in "horse"? - meaning then just "swift"?"); then the d(h)/t was vanished in the word for "horse"? leaving a h (perhaps like in dkmtom > hekaton, as Kloekhorst says? or, maybe, turned to an "s" perhaps as in the Tocharian word for mane/hair? and then dissapeared?
Another "intriguing" :D proposal for today, Nirjhar: A comparison of Sumerian si for "horn", also "finger" to *so (the animate demonstrative - while *to was the inanimate demonstrative and afterwards the neuter one). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/s%C3%B3 Note that in some reflexes (like in Latin) this word is "si". The suggestion assumes a derivation from some word meaning "pointed" (in case both for horn and finger); like in deyḱ-(“to show, instruct, tell, point out, explain”) is in the case of fingers. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/dey%E1%B8%B1- in a kind (perhaps) like it was shown above in case of the Tocharian word for hair (di(k) / si(k) > si.)
Another "intriguing" :D proposal for today, Nirjhar: A comparison of Sumerian si for "horn", also "finger" to *so (the animate demonstrative - while *to was the inanimate demonstrative and afterwards the neuter one). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/s%C3%B3 Note that in some reflexes (like in Latin) this word is "si". The suggestion assumes a derivation from some word meaning "pointed" (in case both for horn and finger); like in deyḱ-(“to show, instruct, tell, point out, explain”) is in the case of fingers. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/dey%E1%B8%B1- in a kind (perhaps) like it was shown above in case of the Tocharian word for hair (di(k) / si(k) > si.)
Note also that the sign of si "horn, finger, fret" is the same with the sig9 sign (used to indicate "to place" and "to tie").
Thanks my friend Nirjhar :) we must search all the possibilities in these comparisons, I think; I was thinking that since the IE word for "horn" (like for example in Gr. κέρας keras "horn") is obviously connected with a word for "head" (like in Gr. κάρα kara "head"), so, it's natural also to think about a similarity (in the case of "si" etc) to the word saĝ for "head" (which I think is about a meaning "exalted, pointed, erected" etc, like in *segh, possibly also from a TK cluster, as already mentioned).
About the comparison with *so / to, my guessing isalso about an initial dental (though I cannot be sure, of course); I had in mind Gr. τόσος tosos or τόσσος tossos "so much, so very, so great" also synonym of ὅσος (hósos); from Proto-Hellenic *totsos, from Pre-Greek *totyos, from Proto-Indo-European *toti, adverb from *só. Cognate with Latin tot.
Yeah, and this "ku-ro" for "sum") if connected with Gr. "kyrios / kurios", as I. Mosenkis has proposed, could be also about a meaning of "top, exalted" etc: κῡ́ρῐος • (kū́rios) m (feminine κῡρῐ́ᾱ, neuter κῡ́ρῐον); first/second declension;(of people): ruling, governing, having power;(of things): decisive, critical, authorized, valid, legal, entitled;(of times): fixed, set, appointed;(of language): literal, main, major, primary, principal; From κῦρος (kûros, “supremacy”) + -ιος (-ios, adjective suffix), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱewH- (“to swell, spread out, be strong, prevail”). Cognate with κύω (kúō), Latin cumulus & cavus, . https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%8D%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82
Another interesting thing is that in Greek there is also a word κυρίσσω kyrisso, Att. κυρίττω kyritto, fut. -ίξω (v. infr.) "butt with the horns" (like rams): http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkuri%2Fssw Because it seems to open a possibility for a connection of kyrios to the root for horn, like in keras: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/%E1%B8%B1erh%E2%82%82- (I don't remember if I had mentioned this before, Nirjhar).
I was thinking today about some other comparison, with a possible initial dental again > s, like for example in Sum. sa [ADVICE] (46x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. sa2 "advice, counsel; resolution, intelligence" Akk. milku or maybe with si [REMEMBER] wr. si "to remember" Akk. hasāsu. I was thinking about a word like Gr. σῆμα(sêma), also σᾶμα (sâma) Doric "mark, sign, token" etc: From Proto-Indo-European *dʰyeh₂- (“to notice”) + -μᾰ (-ma). Cognate with Sanskrit ध्यायति (dhyāyati, “think of, imagine”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%E1%BF%86%CE%BC%CE%B1 dhyāyati seems to fit good for these Sum. words, I think. http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=dhyAyati&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3 What do you think? btw, I was thinking about a comparison with σῆμα sema, since I've already proposed one with σχῆμα skhema:D
I was thinking today about some other comparison, with a possible initial dental again > s, like for example in Sum. sa [ADVICE] (46x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. sa2 "advice, counsel; resolution, intelligence" Akk. milku or maybe with si [REMEMBER] wr. si "to remember" Akk. hasāsu. I was thinking about a word like Gr. σῆμα(sêma), also σᾶμα (sâma) Doric "mark, sign, token" etc: From Proto-Indo-European *dʰyeh₂- (“to notice”) + -μᾰ (-ma). Cognate with Sanskrit ध्यायति (dhyāyati, “think of, imagine”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%E1%BF%86%CE%BC%CE%B1 dhyāyati seems to fit good for these Sum. words, I think. What do you think? btw, I was thinking about a comparison with σῆμα sema, since I've already proposed one with σχῆμα skhema:D
:) About ταχύς takhus "swift" etc, I have noticed (in Frisk's Lexicon) of a name Τήχιππος Tekhippos (Eretria), of the root of takhus and hippos "horse"; this Tekhi-, according to Bechtel should imply an old name *τη̃χος tekhos = τάχος takhos "fastness, velocity etc"; another scholar Vollgraff also made a connection to the verb θήγω theego "excite" (Frisk think this comparison not sustainable, for the semantics); θήγω thego means, though, mainly "to sharpen"; and this "tekhos" looks close to the name for wall "teikhos" < *dheiĝh; the closer root meaning "sharp" is dhēigʷ-: dhōigʷ-: dhīgʷ- "to stick, plant", like in Latin figo (which looks like the fingō for knead, about the wall etc); figo is for "fix" etc (maybe it fits with the sign of si "horn, finger, fret" beeing also the same with the sig9 sign (used to indicate also "to tie", as I've mentioned already):
To think about a connection of "sisi" (abviously a reduplicated form) to such a root (or a similar one) like *dhēigʷ, should require first a kind sig/sig (sig < dhēig(ʷ), in a way s<dh) and then just sisi < si/si. I don't know if all this helps at all :/
:) About ταχύς takhus "swift" etc, I have noticed (in Frisk's Lexicon) of a name Τήχιππος Tekhippos (Eretria), of the root of takhus and hippos "horse"; this Tekhi-, according to Bechtel should imply an old name *τη̃χος tekhos = τάχος takhos "fastness, velocity etc"; another scholar Vollgraff also made a connection to the verb θήγω theego "excite" (Frisk think this comparison not sustainable, for the semantics); θήγω thego means, though, mainly "to sharpen"; and this "tekhos" looks close to the name for wall "teikhos" < *dheiĝh; the closer root meaning "sharp" is dhēigʷ-: dhōigʷ-: dhīgʷ- "to stick, plant", like in Latin figo (which looks like the fingō for knead, about the wall etc); figo is for "fix" etc (maybe it fits with the sign of si "horn, finger, fret" beeing also the same with the sig9 sign (used to indicate also "to tie", as I've mentioned already):
θήγω here:
Yes, I understand :) .
''To think about a connection of "sisi" (abviously a reduplicated form) to such a root (or a similar one) like *dhēigʷ, should require first a kind sig/sig (sig < dhēig(ʷ), in a way s<dh) and then just <sisi si/si. ''
Another imaginative suggestion, Nirjhar. In the case of a possible reduplication of the kind of **TK/TK, for "horse", it looks almost like the numbers "four" (initial T dropped entirely) **K/T-[K] + ending -or" (maybe a horse with a four-wheels chariot?) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/k%CA%B7etw%C3%B3res also with "eight" okto, like perhaps (initial T dropped, a laryngeal left?) **TK/T-[K] > HKT/(+dual?)maybe two horses with one chariot each?(meaning 8 wheels). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/o%E1%B8%B1t%E1%B9%93w
Another imaginative suggestion, Nirjhar. In the case of a possible reduplication of the kind of **TK/TK, for "horse", it looks almost like the numbers "four" (initial T dropped entirely) **K/T-[K] + ending -or" (maybe a horse with a four-wheels chariot?) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/k%CA%B7etw%C3%B3res also with "eight" okto, like perhaps (initial T dropped, a laryngeal left?) **TK/T-[K] > HKT/(+dual?)maybe two horses with one chariot each?(meaning 8 wheels). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/o%E1%B8%B1t%E1%B9%93w
That these (4,8) are numbers concerning wheels / chariots is not my invention, though... Maybe they are about fingers (like "pointed").
Beautiful , this is fascinating and practical :) .
Hi Nirjhar, this is also an imaginative comparison (maybe also about chariots):
Sum. sag [GOOD] (2955x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian) wr. sag8; sag9; sag10; šeg10; sag12 "(to be) good, sweet, beautiful; goodness, good (thing)" Akk. banû; damāqu; dumqu; ţābu
Compared to h₁su- (“good”): Zero-grade form of *h₁esu- (“good”), with possible relation to *h₁es- (“to be”) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%81su- but with a -kh- ending like in the word "sukha": Etymology: According to Monier-Williams (1964), the etymology of sukha is "said to be su ['good'] + kha ['aperture'] and to mean originally 'having a good axle-hole'...." Thus, for instance, in the Rig Veda sukha denotes "running swiftly or easily" (applied, e.g., to chariots). Sukha is juxtaposed with duḥkha (Sanskrit; Pali: dukkha; often translated as "suffering"), which was established as the major motivating life principles in early Vedic religion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukha
There is also a loan-word in Tocharian B: sakw (nnt.) ‘(good) fortune, happiness’ "Like TchA suk ‘id.’ from Sanskrit (or a Prakrit descendant) sukhá- of the same meaning. Sakw shows the same treatment of Indic -u- as does, say, pat ‘stupa’ from buddha- (Pisani 1941-1942:2; Krause and Thomas, 1964:252)."
Hi Nirjhar, I'm glad you liked it :) yet, I'm suspicious about the derivation of the roots again... it sounds a bit silly, but the notion of "sweet" reminded me Sum. "dug" for sweet; also the word "sugar": From Middle English sugre, sucre, from Middle French sucre, from Old French çucre (circa 13th century), from Medieval Latin zuccarum, from Old Italian zucchero, from Arabic سُكَّر (sukkar), from Persian شکر (šakar), from Middle Persian škl (šakar) (Manichaean Middle Persian (šqr)), from Sanskrit शर्करा (śárkarā, “ground or candied sugar", originally "grit, gravel”), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱorkeh₂ (“gravel, boulder”), akin to Ancient Greek κρόκη (krókē, “pebble”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sugar
So, I was thinking that maybe sukha (and *h₁esu-) are connected with a root similar to one of sugar; possibly a wrong impression, though.
The root of sugar seems to be connected with a kind of piece like pebble. In Halloran there is also a word [na4]esig, esi: good, fine; solid, strong; ebony; diorite; olivine-gabbro. In ePSD there is: esi, wr. [na4]esi "diorite, dolerite" Akk. ušû; also esi, wr. [ĝeš]esi "a tree" Akk. ušû. So, one wonders if *h₁esu- is connected also with this Sum. esi(g), and the original notion was about "strong" (and then good, sweet etc).
If the notion is about "strength", also with a possible s < k in (at least) some "sig" words, then I can think of an old Gr. word κίκυς kikys "strenght, vigour" as a KK word. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dki%3Dkus the word about the pebble, though, seems to be a reduplicated "Kr" word (with the first K turning into S, because of some palatal sound); maybe some of the "sig" words are of this derivation of a k'r/k(r) > SrK > SiK (as others can be for example of a TK>SK.)
About sig [BURN] (17x: Old Akkadian, Old Babylonian) wr. sig3 "to burn (of digestion)" Akk. şarāpu "to burn, fire; dye (red)". maybe a comparison is possible with these Tocharian words: TchA 2tsäk- and B tsäk- reflect PTch *tsäk- from PIE *dhegwh- ‘burn’ [: Sanskrit dáhati, Avestan dažaiti ‘he burns,’ Lithuanian degù, OCS žegǫ, Albanian djek ‘I burn’ (P:240-241, with other derivatives; MA:87)] (Meillet and Lévi, 1912:24, VW:526). See also 1tsāk- and tskäññ-, and possibly cok.
We have been already talking about śárkarā and karkara, also Gr. khalix, Sumer, kalag and gulgul et at July.
Yes :) .
If the notion is about "strength", also with a possible s < k in (at least) some "sig" words, then I can think of an old Gr. word κίκυς kikys "strenght, vigour" as a KK word. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dki%3Dkus the word about the pebble, though, seems to be a reduplicated "Kr" word (with the first K turning into S, because of some palatal sound); maybe some of the "sig" words are of this derivation of a k'r/k(r) > SrK > SiK (as others can be for example of a TK>SK.)
Yes, I agree :) .
About sig [BURN] (17x: Old Akkadian, Old Babylonian) wr. sig3 "to burn (of digestion)" Akk. şarāpu "to burn, fire; dye (red)". maybe a comparison is possible with these Tocharian words: TchA 2tsäk- and B tsäk- reflect PTch *tsäk- from PIE *dhegwh- ‘burn’ [: Sanskrit dáhati, Avestan dažaiti ‘he burns,’ Lithuanian degù, OCS žegǫ, Albanian djek ‘I burn’ (P:240-241, with other derivatives; MA:87)] (Meillet and Lévi, 1912:24, VW:526). See also 1tsāk- and tskäññ-, and possibly cok.
That's a very good proposal! :) . I also remember connecting it with singe : https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/singe#Etymology
and these Indic words : ''sēkk 13581 *sēkk ʻ heat, foment, roast ʼ. [Ext. -- kk -- of MIA. sē<-> < śrapáyati ʻ roasts ʼ or svḗda -- ʻ sweat ʼ?] S. sekaṇu ʻ to toast, warm (anything) ʼ, seku m. ʻ toasting ʼ, seko m. ʻ drying up of a crop from wind or drought ʼ; P. sekṇā ʻ to warm, toast, foment ʼ, sek m. ʻ heating ʼ; WPah. (Joshi) sekṇu ʻ to warm ʼ, intr. ʻ to bask ʼ, sek m. ʻ heat (of fire or sun) ʼ; Ku. sekṇo ʻ to warm, foment ʼ; N. seknu ʻ to be warmed, be roasted ʼ; A. xekiba ʻ to roast, toast, foment ʼ, xek ʻ fomentation ʼ; B. sekā, sẽkā, chekā, chẽkā ʻ to roast, foment, sear ʼ, Or. sekibā, sekā ʻ heat applied by fire or hot water ʼ; H. seknā, sẽk° ʻ to warm, foment, toast ʼ (whence intr. siknā ʻ to be warmed, &c. ʼ); OMarw. sekaï ʻ heats, roasts, prepares ʼ; G. sekvũ ʻ to foment, bake, torment ʼ, sek m. ʻ warming a limb at a fire or with heated cloths or leaves or medicaments ʼ; M. śekṇẽ, śẽk° ʻ to warm oneself before a fire, foment, burn ʼ. Addenda: *sēkk -- : WPah.kṭg. sékṇõ ʻ to bask in the sun ʼ.'' http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.4.soas.754319
Hi Nirjhar, yes I remember this nice comparison of yours, I wonder if there is some deeper connection between these roots ;) About our conversation about kalag and karkara/sarkara, khalix etc, note that Sum. kal (precious, rare, valuable, good; also kalag "to be strong, mighty; to strengthen, mend") is also written with the same cuneiform sign as sag (sag8 or KAL); the same happens also for esi(g) for the hard rock and wood; since kal and especially kalag is a kind of "krk", let's say root, I wonder if there is a poosibility (through palatalization?) of the first k (as k'rk) and then srk > sVk, as sig / sag etc. Also this "esi(g)" looks very close to "ensi(k)" ruler etc, in my opinion.
Another imaginative thought now....this esi(g) looks as if close to both *h₁es- "to be" and *segh "to have, to possess, to win etc" roots; one could think almost of these roots as the two halves of some archaic, let's say, **HSK word (> **HS and **SK); assuming then an equation of laryngeal/nasal and a SK < possible K'r/K (r/l), we can find a similarity with a kind of KAL word, maybe reduplicated, like kl/k, anyway the word is ĝal, wr. ĝal2; ma-al; ga2gal2 "to be (there, at hand, available); to exist; to put, place, lay down; to have" Akk. bašû; šakānu, which seems to include both meanings of "be" and "have", also of "be available", like "stand (available to serve) etc" of sug/gub we have already seen (note that also gub is a kind of a KrP word). Consider this, Nirjhar, as the crazy suggestion of the day :D
:D also "obviously" from a Kr/K root we could lead to a KrT one (as a kind of upside TK cluster), like kratos etc we were talking about before... https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/kret- If the K is nasalised (nK>M), we can have Mlk words (meaning "king" in some tongues), also, with the dental, we can have also MrT > mVt, then some "mud" words...
Another correspondence of SK /KL words must be this one: of Sum. gala 'lamentation singer' (PIE *gal(g'h)-etc, also ĝeli "throat" in Giacomo's post)with šeg [VOICE] (28x: Old Babylonian) wr. še; šeg10; šegx(|KA×KID2|); šegx(|KA×LI|); šed15; šeg12 "voice, cry, noise" Akk. rigmu Also a kind of KrK in this case looks like :shriek" :D https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shriek
Like "KrT" is "cry" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cry The KrK must be like Gr. κραυγή krauge "cry" (sound like derived) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%AC%CE%B6%CF%89 There is also a comparison of krauge with Sanskrit króśati (palatal second K) http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=krosati&direct=se
All these words may mean a "strong" quality: For example also šeg [FROST] (11x: ED IIIb, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. šeg9; šeg4 "snow; sleet; cold weather; frost, ice" could be connected also to a KrS/ KrT like in Latin crusta, cryo- etc https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/crusta#Latin The connection with the root of snow also seems good; it reminds the assumed relation of Sum. nig (thing, possess) and *segh "to have", also Sieg / νίκη nike victory etc. The KAL like is with *gel, of course :D https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/gel-
I'm thinking now that siki, keza, also Tocharian A śāku ‘headhair" < *dek̑-, since this last root is the root of english "tail", then perhaps to this group belongs also Gr. κέρκος kerkos "tail of a beast" (as a KrK word). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%AD%CF%81%CE%BA%CE%BF%CF%82 There are some KRK roots in Pokorny, which are maybe connected to some Sumerian "sig" word, under the same logic; like f.e. (kerk̂-:) kork̂- : kr̥k̂- "to wrinkle, become thin"; like in Latin cracens "slender, neat, graceful (as the letter C)" Possibly from Proto-Indo-European *kerḱ- (“to become thin, to wane”), related to Sanskrit कृश (kṛśa, “thin, lean”), Lithuanian karštu (“to age”), Avestan *kərəsa, “meager, lean”. Also compare gracilis (“thin, slender”). As the KrK/KrS; if we turn upside down this later we perhaps could have (as the SrK) Sum. sig "thin" etc. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cracens#Latin I think that all these forms are maybe parts of the ancient "depalatalization" process.
Another word, sag [BEAT] (186x: ED IIIb, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. sag3; sag2 "to strike, beat; weave" Akk. mahāşu I think it is compared (under the same fashion) with krek-1 (-k̂-?) "to hit". Material Gr. κρέκω kreko "hit" "to weave" `schlage, klopfe; schlage das Gewebe fest', κρόκη `Einschlagfaden, Gewebe', κρόξ ds., κροκοῦν `weben', κροκύς, -ύδος f. nap on cloth `Wollflocke'; aisl. hræll (*hraŋhilaz) `Stab zum Festmachen des Gewebes', ags. hrēol (*hrehulaz) `Haspel'; ags. hrægl n. `Kleid, Gewand', engl. rail, afries. hreil; ahd. hregil n. `indumentum, spolium'; lett. krękls `Hemd'; wenn das lett. Wort sein zweites k durch westidg. Einfluß empfangen hat, kann auch folgende slav. Sippe angereiht werden: russ. krešú, kresátь `mit dem Feuerstahl Feuer schlagen', klr. kresáty, kresnúty `Feuer schlagen', dial. `hauen, schlagen überhaupt', skr. krȅšēm, krèsati `Feuer schlagen; Steine behauen; Aste abschlagen' (usw., s. Berneker 611).
The same for sig [PLUCK] (48x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. sig7; sig8 "to pluck hair or wool; (to be) trimmed, pruned" Akk. sepû ša šarti; urrû
btw I found funny that there is a root krek-2, kr̥k- "roe; slimy stuff in water" Material Aisl. hrogn n., ahd. (h)rogan, rogen `Rogen, Laich'; lit. kurkulaĩ Pl. `Froschlaich', lett. kur̂kulis ds., lit. apkurkóti `sich mit Wassermoos beziehen'; trotz lautlicher Schwierigkeiten hierher die slav. Sippe von serb. ȍkrijek `Wassermoos, Algen', slov. krė́k, žabo-krė́čina `Froschlaich' usw., ablaut. slov. krâk `Froschlaich; grüner Überzug an Pfützen, Wassermoos', mit auffälligem ja: russ. krjak `Froschlaich', čech. mdartl. okřaky `Sammelname für Wasserpflanzen'? https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1031 which is in Sum. zizna [ROE] wr. zizna[ku6] "fish roe" Akk. binītu while in Skrt. śiśna is "tail, penis", which is in Greek κέρκος kerkos (tail, penis), mentioned already above. Here must be a connection also with the ken roots (in Sum. we have seen also kun "tail").
I think that all these forms are maybe parts of the ancient "depalatalization" process.
Interesting :) . I think it is compared (under the same fashion) with krek-1 (-k̂-?) "to hit".
I agree .
The same for sig [PLUCK] (48x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. sig7; sig8 "to pluck hair or wool; (to be) trimmed, pruned" Akk. sepû ša šarti; urrû
Yes .
Here must be a connection also with the ken roots (in Sum. we have seen also kun "tail")..
I think that Sum. words like silig or zalag follow also the same pattern: for example zalag (or sulug) could be a kind of K'rK word again, the K'r part been the sawel-/hel-/sol-/svar- etc; alo the cal- (of calorie etc) < *kelH.
2,273 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 1001 – 1200 of 2273 Newer› Newest»Also, since the connection of the double *kʷe(r) root to a "thorn cluster" is evident :D (assuming the kʷkʷ = TK equation, if you remember; the TK-R of "tukur" is just a kind of Kr-T in that sense, like KrT-KrT = TKr-TKr; also the meaning of "perish, perishable" and such things must be a result of some "violent moving" and throwing is also a "violent circular movement"); then I think that a "ksip" word could be a result of a trippled kʷ(e)r, in a way like [kʷ(er)/kʷer/kʷ(er)> *kʷkʷerkʷ-, turning (for phonetic reasons) the first "kʷkʷ" into a "thorn cluster" TK, while the last letter kʷ turned into a p (kʷ>p, as assumed already); so the final result could be a TK(r)P, then in the Indic-like tranformation KSrP (that's why the KSr- part looks like ksura), so we have finally a KSrP > ksarp/ksirp word and then just ksip for "throwing, swift, sudden" etc. Not sure, it's just my idea for now...
Yeah, this ksip/kraip reminded me the presence of the "r" in this ossetian word äxsirf "sickle", compared by many with Gr. ξιφος xiphos "sword"; also I remember the possibility of Gr. xiphos beeing (at least initially) a kind of javelin or throwstick; we have discussed about all these things almost two years ago, at Giacomo's 3rd Sumerian post.
Yeah :) .
BTW, this must be the 1000th posting on this post of yours :)
Its just the beginning ! :) .
I think we must try a derivation from the **kʷer/kʷel root for "moving", since we must certainly be consistent to our assumptions about the *wer and *wel roots ("to turn") as derived from this same **kʷer/kʷel root); so I think we must assume here a doubled word, using the "r" form, to indicate again a "turning / throwing"; something like *kʷer/kʷ(er); then we could have perhaps a KRT word, if the first kʷ is somehow delabialized / vocalized, and the second kʷ is turned into a "t" (kʷ>t); I mean a KRT word like in Sumerian gurud "to throw"; now, if the first k we assume to have been dropped (because of a kind of lenition perhaps, as the assumption is about kʷer > *wer), then we could have a second form wer/kʷ > werp ( p wrip > rip-); or something like that; in Sumerian we have also this rig/ri (the g intead of a p, like in rip), if this comparison is correct; as in gurud, assuming some types with gʷ instead of kʷ, though a g could be also spelled as a k in Sumerian.
I agree ! .
a "ksip" word could be a result of a trippled kʷ(e)r, in a way like [kʷ(er)/kʷer/kʷ(er)> *kʷkʷerkʷ-, turning (for phonetic reasons) the first "kʷkʷ" into a "thorn cluster" TK, while the last letter kʷ turned into a p (kʷ>p, as assumed already); so the final result could be a TK(r)P, then in the Indic-like tranformation KSrP (that's why the KSr- part looks like ksura), so we have finally a KSrP > ksarp/ksirp word and then just ksip for "throwing, swift, sudden" etc.
Its a beautiful idea! :) .
:) About the meaning "cut" (also "gur" in Sumerian, like in circle) one can guess that a KSrP root could produce also words like "sharp" etc; so, I think that the *(s)ker and *(s)kel roots (with all their -b and -d or -t suffixes) could be also derived by a similar way (maybe because of a metahesis like KS > SK). Maybe also a doubled (k)ʷer/k(ʷer) (to move, to make) could produce the werg' root of "work" etc. In Greek, for example, we have also a word "ῥέζω (rhézō) (poetic)(transitive) to do, make; to perform sacrifices; to do something to someone (with two accusatives);(intransitive) to act (as opposed to speaking or being acted on) From Proto-Indo-European *wréǵ-ye-, a ye-present from *wreǵ-, a metathesis of *werǵ-, the root of ἔργον (érgon) and ἔρδω (érdō)." (*wreb- is also the assumed for for ρίπτω rhipto "to throw" from *wer-b-):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BF%A5%CE%AD%CE%B6%CF%89
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/w%C3%A9r%C7%B5om
Or, for example, *(s)kep for "roof" could be from a metathesis sk<ks from *ksap "night" (for "darkness").
'' :) About the meaning "cut" .........''
Yes very interesting! :) .
''Or, for example, *(s)kep for "roof" could be from a metathesis sk < ks from *ksap "night" (for "darkness").''
Yup! :) .
Also this tn̥ghu- etc for "thick" (compared with Sum. dugud)from *tengh- "to extend, stretch, span, pull" etc, are ultimately from *ten "to stretch" etc, so, since we assumed a *ten < **kwen in this case, that could explain a connection to *ken style roots; also perhaps some Gr. forms like κνέφας knephas or δνόφος dnophos for "darkness" apart from ψέφας psephas, assumed by Pokorny from kʷsep- (?) "dark" Material Ai. kṣáp, kṣapā́ `Nacht', av. xšap- `Dunkelheit'; gr. ψέφας, ψέφος n. `Dunkel', ψεφαρός, ψεφηνός `dunkel'; κνέφας `Dunkel'; δνόφος `Finsternis', später γνόφος ds., hom. δνοφερός `dunkel', ἰοδνεφής `dunkelviolett'; ζόφος `Dunkel', ζοφερός `dunkel'.Der wechselnde gr. Anlaut beruht auf Tabu-Vorstellungen.
! :D
Hi again Nirjhar,
Another extension of the *wer root of ρίπτω rhipto "to throw" (< *wre-b < *wer-b) is the *wer-ĝh- root 'to turn, wrench' https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/2159
Also the 3e. u̯er-, u̯er-g̑h- 'to turn, press, wring, strangle'
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/2160
This last one (u̯er-g̑h-) has an interesting nasalised form: *u̯renĝh-, with a controversial Gr. adverb ῥίμφα rhimpha "lightly, swiftly" as from "turning itsel" (*u̯renghu̯-, Schwyzer Gr. Gr. 1, 302) `rasch, behende' (`sich drehend'); ahd. (ge)ringi `leicht', afries. ring, mndl. gheringhe, mnd. mhd. (ge)ringi `leicht, schnell bereit'...
ToB has a separate Proto-IE: *wringʷh-
Meaning: quick
Old Greek: rhímpha `schnell' [fast]
Germanic: *ringi- ~ *wr-
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=2873&root=config
Inside Greek ῥίμφα rhímpha is regarded, most probably, as a kin to ῥίπτω rhipto "to throw"
"ῥίμφα rhimpha ῥίπτω rhipto adv. lightly, swiftly, fleetly, Il., Aesch."
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dr(i%2Fmfa
And this reminds also kSipaNi "move speadily" / kSip "to throw" (the connection of kSip and rhipto we discussed above).
Now, another interesting thing is that in Sumerian the word kaš "runner, trotter, messenger; to run" is written with the sign "kaš4" which happens to be identical with the sign "rim4" (as in the word barim, wr. bar-rim4; barim "dry land"); in Halloran, also, is stated > rim4: (cf., kaš4)
Sum. kaš, if you remember, we have compared with Skrt. kaStha, and kaS "rub, scratch, itch" which is according to Mayrhofer, from karS "draw, tract, plough", ultimately with *kʷel / kʷer root (there is no need to distinguish between these -l and -r endings, I think); we compared these roots also to *k'ers = to run etc, most probably from Sanskrit); we can add also kSip- and kSipaNi here.
So, since the sign of kaš4 is identical to rim4 (most probably meaning also the same thing "swiftness - running" etc - btw there is also a word im2 "to run", written with this same sign, also gir5) and the IE comparisons of kaš4 seem to be derived from kʷer as the ones of rim4 are to *wer, I think that this is another indication for a connection of these roots kʷer and *wer. ;)
Also, the connection of "swift, run" and "throwing" plus the reference of Sum. im, have made me think again about Gr. hiemi ἵημι "I release, let go; (of sounds) I utter, speak, say; I throw, shoot, hurl; (of water) I let flow, flow, spout forth; I send; (middle) I speed myself, hasten; (middle, with infinitive) I am eager, I desire (to do something);
(middle, with genitive) I am set upon, long for" :
From Proto-Hellenic *yiyēmi, reduplicated present of Proto-Indo-European *(H)yeh₁- (“to throw”). Compare Latin iaciō. This has been connected with Hittite i̯e "to do, make", but that hypothesis is rejected by Kloekhorst 2008.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%B5%CE%B7%CE%BC%CE%B9#Ancient_Greek
According to the Hittite Vocabulary:
9.11 — DO, MAKE — iya- is the basic verb meaning ‘make’ and ‘do’. Besides the common iter. essa- (P 300-5, T 111-12), related forms include Luw. a(y)a-, Hier. a(i)a-, Lyc. a-, and Lyd. i-. The most plausible etymology connects iya- with Toch. yām- ‘make’ (H. Holma, Journal de la Société finno-ougrienne 33.1 [1916]: 23-24). Beyond this widely accepted collocation, many other attempts have been made which are semantically doubtful, mostly involving IE *yē- ‘throw’ (IEW 502). Further linking of Skt. yam- ‘hold’ (e.g. Watkins, Idg. Gr. III/1: 71) is also questionable, and identification with H. iya- ‘go’ (10.47; e.g. Hrozný, SH 153) is generally rejected (cf. T 338-43, P 335-47). Abandoning this approach altogether, V. Machek (Die Sprache 4 [1958]: 79; approved of in P 346) saw iya- as a verbalization of the pronominal stem a- ‘it’ (< *e-/o-), thus ‘(do) it’, by the same process as in anniya- work’.
About Toch yām = "do, commit, make, effect", the Tocharian B Lexicon: "Etymology uncertain. Certainly to be rejected is VW's suggestion (644-645) that yām- is a borrowing from Sanskrit yam- ‘hold, sustain, tame’ and Tch yäm- ‘achieve, attain,’ q.v. However, it is possible to see in PTch *yām- an ō-grade iterative-intensive to this root. Certainly a semantic connection between ‘attain, achieve’ and ‘do, make’ makes eminent sense (P:505; MA:170-271). The relationship between "basic" yäm- and iterative-intensive yām- may be paralleled by näk- ‘destroy,’ nāk- ‘blame,’ and tsäk- ‘burn,’ tsāk- ‘illuminate.’ All six of these verbs have athematic (Class I) subjunctives and Class III preterites; For yām- one should note TchA preterite yāmäs; the TchB preterite yāmäṣṣā- is clearly secondary to the present yāmäsk'ä/e-. (With different morphological relations between the paired roots with short and long vowels are plätk-/plātk- ‘arise, develop’/‘spread (out),’ wäsk-/wāsk- ‘move,’ TchA räp-/TchB rāp- ‘dig, plow,’ klutk-/klautk- ‘turn/turn into,’ and lit-/lait- ‘pass on, move’/‘depart.’) Another possibility is that AB yām- reflects a PIE *yoh1-m- from *yeh1- ‘throw; put [by throwing]’ (P:502) with an -m- élargissement as perhaps in ṣäm-. For the o-grade of *yoh1m- one might compare English do, etc. from *dheh1-. Such an analysis connects this word with the other forms of ‘do, make’ in TchA, namely ya- and ypa- which are from yeh1- and possibly *pi-yeh1- (with metathesis) respectively. This connection for yām- goes back originally to Benveniste (1936:235). For a discussion of PIE *yeh1- ‘do,’ see Adams (1987b). See also yāmätstse, -yāmi, yāmor, and possibly yäm-.
The connection about words for "throwing" and "doing" reminds again the kwer / wer-g relation, I think.
Sum. kaš, if you remember, we have compared with Skrt. kaStha, and kaS "rub, scratch, itch" which is according to Mayrhofer, from karS "draw, tract, plough", ultimately with *kʷel / kʷer root (there is no need to distinguish between these -l and -r endings, I think); we compared these roots also to *k'ers = to run etc, most probably from Sanskrit); we can add also kSip- and kSipaNi here.
Yup :) .
since the sign of kaš4 is identical to rim4 (most probably meaning also the same thing "swiftness - running" etc - btw there is also a word im2 "to run", written with this same sign, also gir5) and the IE comparisons of kaš4 seem to be derived from kʷer as the ones of rim4 are to *wer, I think that this is another indication for a connection of these roots kʷer and *wer. ;)
Yes , beautiful :) .
the connection of "swift, run" and "throwing" plus the reference of Sum. im, have made me think again about Gr. hiemi ἵημι "I release, let go; (of sounds) I utter, speak, say; I throw, shoot, hurl; (of water) I let flow, flow, spout forth; I send; (middle) I speed myself, hasten; (middle, with infinitive) I am eager, I desire (to do something);
(middle, with genitive) I am set upon, long for" :
Very interesting :) .
The connection about words for "throwing" and "doing" reminds again the kwer / wer-g relation, I think.
Me too :) .
Hi Nirjhar,
I was thinking today of something else; about Sum. dugud etc; Halloran includes also a meaning "(rain) cloud" for "dugud"; which, I think, connects it to Sum. "dungu", a word we have compared at Giacomo's posts to the root *dʰengʰ- "to cover, to overcast
":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/d%CA%B0eng%CA%B0-
which is compatible to *tn̥ghu- "thick" etc (from *tengh-), compared also to Sum. dugud,; also, another case is the Sum. word aĝar [RAINSHOWER] wr. aĝar5; aĝar6 "rainshower, downpour" Akk. rādu"; its writing "aĝar6" is in the reality IM.DUGUD (the signs of im "rain" and dugud "heavy"; hence the meaning "rain-cloud" in Halloran); so dugud (which is connected to tukur) is also connected with dungu (the nasal is interestingly preserved in this Sum. word).
Now, if there is also a connection of dugud "heavy" with the word for "cattle, ox" (gud, as from du-gud), we have to assume a g < **gw - for the g of dugud. In this case, since the IM.DUGUD writing is for aĝar "rain-shower", I was thinking about a connection with ὄμβρος ombros "storm, rain" etc: "Has traditionally been connected to Sanskrit अभ्र (abhrá), Latin imber, and Old Armenian ամբ (amb), but formal derivation from Proto-Indo-European *n̥bʰrós presents several problems. *n̥, *bʰ would be expected to yield ᾰ, φ (a, ph), and accent would likely be on the ultima. Also see ἀφρός (aphrós, “foam”)."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%84%CE%BC%CE%B2%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
n̥bʰrós here:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/n%CC%A5b%CA%B0r%C3%B3s
PIE *n̥bʰrós/*n̥bʰrís "rain-cloud, rain, cloud" is probably a zero-grade derivative of *nebʰ-, the root that also gave *nébʰos. However, that derivative remains a bit problematic because beside clearly matching Sanskrit, Avestan, Latin and Armenian cognates there are formal problems with Ancient Greek ὄμβρος (ómbros) with problematic initial ο- and the cluster -μβ- (proper Greek reflex after the expected assimilation of *n to *m to the following labial would be -μφ-), as well as with ἀφρός (aphrós, “foam”), which does formally provide a perfect match, but is usually dropped from consideration due to heavy semantical mismatch (cf. Beekes, Frisk 1960:197 etc.).
abʰrás here https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-Iranian/ab%CA%B0r%C3%A1s
Since "ombros" for "rain, storm" maust be from a labiovelar like on-gw-ros > om-b-ros, I was thinking about the possibility of a potential on-gw(h)-ro > om-bʰ-ros and then om-b-ros, and so about the potential of a "bh" from a previous gwh < gw(h) for these words.
(The other option for "ombros" is perhaps an "om-ros" like in gambros, supposed from gam-ros; yet in case, at least, of ombros this seems odd).
a word we have compared at Giacomo's posts to the root *dʰengʰ- "to cover, to overcast
Yes :) .
so dugud (which is connected to tukur) is also connected with dungu (the nasal is interestingly preserved in this Sum. word).
Yes :) .
I was thinking about a connection with ὄμβρος ombros "storm, rain" etc: "Has traditionally been connected to Sanskrit अभ्र (abhrá), Latin imber, and Old Armenian ամբ (amb), but formal derivation from Proto-Indo-European *n̥bʰrós presents several problems. *n̥, *bʰ would be expected to yield ᾰ, φ (a, ph), and accent would likely be on the ultima. Also see ἀφρός (aphrós, “foam”)."
:D .
I was thinking about the possibility of a potential on-gw(h)-ro > om-bʰ-ros and then om-b-ros, and so about the potential of a "bh" from a previous gwh < gw(h) for these words.
Beautiful :) .
:D the interesting outcome of this assumption is that the root *nebh
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/neb%CA%B0-
is connected (through a possible kind of **-n(e)gw(h)- to the *dʰengʰ- root for "cover" etc (connected with dungu/dugud) - that fits perhaps also to dnophos etc (with the initial d)we were talking about before...
True :) .
Not to say about a closeness of this form with "niger" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/niger#Latin and some notions of "dark, night" (together with covering... , like kSap etc) :)
Looks bright! ;) .
The notion of "dung" could fit also to the "cattle" btw :P
Yet, the g (or k) of γνόφος gnophos and κνέφας knephas for "darkness" requires also an initial **gw > d (to connect also with δνόφος dnophos); so we must re-write this assumed form into something like **gw(e)-n(e)gw(h)-[os]
(We must follow also the assumption of a *ten- **kwen- (and also a **g(e)n < **gwen); like for example in the root fr "five" etc).
Of course! :) .
For kSap (and possibly ψέφας psephas) (< **KSrP) we most probably require just an additional initial **kwe- or **gwe (to create the TK>PS effect - since we are dealing with a doubled / trippled root here) and an "r" resonant, instead of an "n" (I think).
makes sense :) .
We have also Sum. kukku [DARK] (63x: Old Babylonian) wr. ku10-ku10; kukku5 "(to be) dark" Akk. da'āmu; also kukku [DARK PLACES] (6x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. kukku2 "dark places" Akk. eklētu.
Also giggi [BLACK] (941x: ED IIIa, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium) wr. giggi; gi6-gi6 "(to be) black" Akk. şalmu
(The gi6 sign is also very close to the sign of dugud, if you notice).
Yes, it is fantastic again :) .
There is also, as you remember, kukku [LAND] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. kukku3(|KI.KI|) "land"; the several dh and gh (like in dheghom > TK-m etc, for "land, earth") I understand that they must be somehow from some de-labialized dwh and gwh; though I'm not sure why.
I think, though, that at least for *ken and *ten roots, we could assume a derivation from a **kwen one.
Good suggestion again :) .
These words / forms, like -n(e)gw(h)- etc, are close to nagara again.
hahahaha very true! :D
Not sure, but about sukud [HEIGHT](/sukudr/)(227x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. sukud "height, altitude" Akk. mēlû "height, attitude",
do you think that this "sukudr" could be comparable with क्षत्रिय (kṣatriya)? maybe as metathesized > k(u)sudr?
Notion is familiar with of warrior ,king :) .
I know, it says also sukud [HEADDRESS] wr. sukud "a crown or headdress"
yeah, its very nice :) .
sukudr reminded me also of Skudra, a name for the Thracians:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skudra
Nice ! :) .
Akkadian mēlû [SUKUD :] "height, altitude ; ascent, way up ; step of staircase, of ladder ; hill, high place"
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=2480&language=id
seems to be connected to Meluhha, I believe.
and as you know, some suggest this Meluhha to be Indus Valley Civilization /Sindhu-Sarasvati Civilization! :)
Yes :) but what about the proposed connection with mleccha? also, I guess that a metathesized k(u)sudr looks more like ksudra or shudra :/ (kudr is the word for "cut")
Yes the connection with mleccha is also possible . Shudra looks good, yes, I also think similar :) .
But perhaps both kṣatriya and shudra sprang from same root :) .
Maybe they are some kind of euphemisms. What is the root od shudra?
Also I haven't understood why they use a term like "high realm" for this land of Indus Valley.
About mleccha, there is a Gr. βλάξ blax "stupid", it's from the root of μαλακός malakos "soft"; I'm not sure if it is related though.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dbla%2Fc
No one knows for sure , I remember Giacomo compared with kSudra and the word generally replaces the dasa of Vedas , which meant 'servant,slave, hostile enemy,non-virtuous people' etc .
Yes , use of high realm is strange , unless it meant in the sense of high status or something like that .
About the etymology of mleccha , I would like to know what Mayrhofer say . But a connection with mala 'dirt , filth , dust , impurity (physical and moral) AV. &c. &c. ; (in med.) any bodily excretion or secretion (esp. those of the Dha1tus q.v. , described as phlegm from chyle , bile from the blood ' etc is possible. In this case the 'impurity' of trading cities and their people is suggestible, as they didn't follow the rites and codes of Brahmans .
This seems related :
''mlech (= %{mlich}) cl. 1. P. (Dha1tup. vii , 25) %{mlecchati} (Gr. also pf. %{mimleccha} fut. %{mlecchitA} &c. ; Ved. inf. %{mlecchitavai} Pat.) , to speak indistinctly (like a foreigner or barbarian who does not speak Sanskr2it) S3Br. MBh.: Caus. or cl. 10. P. %{mlecchayati} id. Dha1tup. xxxii , 120.''
I now think that kṣatriya and shudra may haven't come from same root :/ . But we will see :) ...
About mleccha Mayrhofer excludes any derivation from some name of any foreign people of land (he mentions on that, specifically, the name of Meluhha); he mentions also an old comparison with Lat. blaesus, Gr. βλαισός "lisping, stammering" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/blaesus
Yes it seems to be of onomatopoeic origin :) .
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/balbus#Latin
Perhaps related to this :)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/barbarian
About sukudr, I think that Whittaker had proposed a comparison with an IE *seǵʰ-os from the root of Gr. ἔχω (ékhō) I have, possess, contain, own, I hold fast, grip
(with infinitive) I have means to do, I am able, I have to; also (middle) I hold myself fast etc., etc.
From Proto-Indo-European *seǵʰ-. Cognates include Mycenaean Greek 𐀁𐀐 (e-ke), Sanskrit सहते (sahate) and Old English siġe.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%94%CF%87%CF%89
Yes (last comment of the day for me :) ) . I think that also fits the qualities of kṣatriya :) .
Yes, I was thinking also the same; maybe we also could compare with some "sig" Sumerian words... :)
Here is a famous warrior-(son of a)king from the Iliad, Nirjhar, from the same root seǵʰ:
"In Greek, Héktōr is a derivative of the verb ἔχειν ékhein, archaic form *ἕχειν hékhein, 'to have' or 'to hold' from Proto-Indo-European *seǵh- 'to hold'... Héktōr, or Éktōr as found in Aeolic poetry, is also an epithet of Zeus in his capacity as 'he who holds [everything together]'. Hector's name could thus be taken to mean 'holding fast'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hector
If you compare Hektor (let's say *Sektor) with Sum. sukudr, you'll find it matches almost perfectly (as a kind of "Sokotr" / "Soktor"). It could match also kṣatriya I think; certainly the "dr" part match perfectly to -tr(-iya); the kṣa- part (from the TK thorn cluster) corresponds, as we have seen, to Sum. "tuku"; so the question is, if there is a relation (which I think it does) between the tuku word and the suku- of sukudr. :)
(BTW the u/o of the Sumerian, instead of some a/e, reminds me of the Khotanese noγor instead of nagar :D )
About kṣudra, Mayrhofer has it together with kSodas "rushing water, waters in agitation" and such thinkg like melting, shaking, grinding, pounding, shattering, making little etc:
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=kSodas&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=ksudra&direct=au
It remindes me a bit Gr. σαθρός sathros 'unsound, broken, broke, unhealthy, weak' (IA.).
http://etymology_el_en.enacademic.com/6157/%CF%83%CE%B1%CE%B8%CF%81%E1%BD%B9%CF%82
Searching about kṣudra at the Tocharian Lexico, I found another word:
lykaśke (adj.) (a) ‘small’; (b) ‘fine’ [adv. = ‘finely’] [m: lykaśke, -, lykaśkeṃ//] [f: //lykaśkana, -, -] (a) käskaññītär-ne waiptār āśce po lykaśke ‘his head was scattered far and wide in little pieces’ (22b5), [kos] lykaśke aknātsaññe tsankan-me tot lykaśkana lwāsane cmelñe mäsketär-me ‘however little, ignorance arises to them, so their birth is among little animals’ (575b4/5), lykaśkana śikṣapātänta ‘the lesser precepts’ [lykaśkana = BHS kṣudrakānuk ṣudraka-] (PK-AS-18B-b1 [Pinault, 1984b]); (b) onkolm=eñcwañña waltsanoy-n=āsta lykaśke ‘an iron she-elephant ground his bones fine’ (22b4), aśāwe lykiśke rūp ‘a form rough and fine’ (192b3), läksañana misa lykaśke kekarśwa ‘fish meat finely chopped’ (P-1a1). ∎TchA lykäly ‘id.’ and B lykaśke show the same PTch *lyäk- extended by different diminutive suffixes (-ly from PIE *-li- or *-lyo; -śke from *-ḱiko-). VW (1941:59, 1976:273) connects *lyäk- with PIE *legwh- ‘light’ but the absence of a -w- in Tocharian (e.g. *lykwaśke) is hard to explain. Better, with Duchesne-Guillemin (1941:160), to connect this word with Greek olígos ‘few, small,’ Albanian lig ‘bad, evil; thin,’ Lithuanian ligà ‘illness,’ Latvian liga ‘severe illness, pestilence.’ Cf. also Old Irish līach ‘suffering, unfortunate,’ Lithuanian nu-líegti ‘fall ill,’ and Greek loigós (with loss of *h3- as sometimes before *-o-) ‘ruin, harm, death’ (cf. P:667; MA:516).
the comparison is to this Sum. word:
lugud [SHORT] (115x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. lugud2; lugud3 "(to be) short; (to be) tight; (to be) short of breath" Akk. kurû
Another potential Gr. word for kSudra perhaps could be ἐχθρός (ekhthrós) m (feminine ἐχθρᾱ́, neuter ἐχθρόν); first/second declension; (with passive meaning) hated, hateful; (with active meaning) hating, hostile [+dative or genitive = to someone or something] (masculine or feminine, as substantive) enemy; (ἐχθρόν ἐστι (ekhthrón esti), impersonal) it is displeasing, distasteful, unpleasant [+dative = for someone], [+infinitive = to do]
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%90%CF%87%CE%B8%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%82
Yes, I was thinking also the same; maybe we also could compare with some "sig" Sumerian words... :)
Yup :) .
If you compare Hektor (let's say *Sektor) with Sum. sukudr, you'll find it matches almost perfectly (as a kind of "Sokotr" / "Soktor"). It could match also kṣatriya I think; certainly the "dr" part match perfectly to -tr(-iya); the kṣa- part (from the TK thorn cluster) corresponds, as we have seen, to Sum. "tuku"; so the question is, if there is a relation (which I think it does) between the tuku word and the suku- of sukudr. :)
(BTW the u/o of the Sumerian, instead of some a/e, reminds me of the Khotanese noγor instead of nagar :D )
Beautiful Kyriakos! :) .
It remindes me a bit Gr. σαθρός sathros 'unsound, broken, broke, unhealthy, weak' (IA.).
Quite interesting! :) .
Searching about kṣudra at the Tocharian Lexico, I found another word:
Fine comparison again :) .
Another potential Gr. word for kSudra perhaps could be ἐχθρός (ekhthrós) m (feminine ἐχθρᾱ́, neuter ἐχθρόν);
Can be yes :) .
Hi Nirjhar,
About the meaning "high, hight, high place" etc, I was thinking today that another word which is often compared to *seǵʰ (thogh others reject this comparison) is ὄχθη okhthe, ἡ, (fem.) older form of ὄχθος okhthos = A.any height or rising ground, natural or artificial, bank, dyke by the side of a river,mostly in pl., raised banks of a river, in full, he raised banks of the trench, dykes, also of rising banks at a little distance from a river; ὄχθη okhthe is distd. as the bank of a river, from ὄχθος okthos a hill".
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Do)%2Fxqh
ὄχθη okhthe includes a thorn cluster, I think (as KT < TK).
Intriguing :) .
"school" is also from the same root :) (from a notion of "gaining time (for learning etc)":
From Middle English scole, from Old English scōl (“place of education”), possibly from Proto-Germanic *skōla (“school”), from Late Latin schola, scola (“learned discussion or dissertation, lecture, school”), from Ancient Greek σχολεῖον (skholeîon), from σχολή (skholḗ, “spare time, leisure", later, "conversations and the knowledge gained through them during free time; the places where these conversations took place”), from Proto-Indo-European *seǵhe-, *sǵhē- (“to hold, have, possess”). Compare Old Frisian skūle, schūle (West Frisian skoalle, Saterland Frisian Skoule, “school”), Dutch school (“school”), German Low German School (“school”), Old High German scuola (“school”), Old Norse skōli (“school”). Influenced in some senses by Middle English schole (“group of persons, host, company”), from Middle Dutch scole (“multitude, troop, band”). See school1. Related also to Old High German sigi (German Sieg, “victory”), Old English siġe, sigor (“victory”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/school
Yes knowledge is power that brings victory :) .
German "Sieg" from this same root means "victory" and the other word for posession niĝ I though it was comperad to Gr. νίκη nike "victory", also connected to a notion of holding, possesion and gaining.
niĝ [THING] (1641x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium) wr. niĝ2; aĝ2 (ES) "thing, possesion; something" Akk. bušu "goods"; mimma "anything, something".
Very interesting suggestion :) .
On the other hand, from seǵʰ- there is also a word ἐχυ^ρ-ός ekhuros (ekhyros), ά, όν, （ἔχω ekho）or ὀχυρός okhuros "strong, secure" (usually also for "stronghold"):
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3De)xuro%2Fs
So, I guess now :D if we put this ὀχυρ- "okhur-" (or, better, used the 2 "o" of okthos for the "raised bank" etc) we could have a word like "okhor", which looks very close to the Khotanese noγόρ (without the "n"), which seems to fi quite well to our comparison for nagar /agar :)
:D
Besides, if we could find the connection between Sum. niĝ and *seǵʰ (s)eǵʰ, we could say the same about a full noγor (with the "n").
Yes :) .
Maybe many of the "Pre-Indic" of Sanskrit etc were also IE, like mant "Pre-Greek" :D
Yes , quite possible :) .
I mean maybe nike and nakar / nagara could be somehow connected (maybe cognates :p).
Ok I understand :) .
Another possible clue is that niĝ's writing in Emesal is without an "n" (aĝ2): "wr. niĝ2; aĝ2 (ES)"
Nice one :) .
There is also a word μόχθος mokthos 1 = μόγος mogos "toil, hard work hardship, distress, trouble", which looks like okhthos "hill, raised bank", but with an "m". Maybe there is a connection.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dmo%2Fxqos
Interesting :) .
sometimes connected with this word "myakSati":
http://www.spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=myakS&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
Anyway, Halloran connects "hardship" with "fortress":
bad4: "fortress; hardship, difficulty; inarable land"
I see .
The adjective is μοχθηρός mokhtheros voc. μόχθηρε, not μοχθηρέ I.suffering hardship, in sore distress, miserable, wretched, Aesch., Ar., etc.; μοχθηρὰ τλῆναι to suffer hardships, Aesch. 2.in a bad state, in sorry plight, worthless, Ar., Plat., etc.:—adv., μοχθηρῶς διακεῖσθαι to be in a sorry plight, Plat.; so in comp., μοχθηροτέρως ἔχειν id=Plat.; -ότερον Xen.:—Sup. -ότατα Plat.
II.in moral sense, wicked, knavish, rascally, Lat. pravus, Thuc., Ar., etc.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dmoxqhro%2Fs
maybe the ksatriyas are the ones that rule in the strongholds and the cities, but certainly the ksudras may be the ones that built them.
very interesting suggestion! :) .
I think that a Sum. word resembling okthe "any height or rising ground, natural or artificial, bank, dyke by the side of a river,mostly in pl., raised banks of a river etc" could be this one:
eg [LEVEE] (627x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. eg2; iku2 "levee" Akk. Akk. īku "dyke, ditch".ETCSL: eg2=embankment.
supposing from a word like ékh-ein < hékh-ein < *seǵh-.
Hesychius has also a type ἔγμεν égmen for ἔχειν ékhein. Also ἔγμα égma = ὀχύρωμα okhuroma ("stronghold") στῦλος stylos ("pillar").
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*e%3Aentry+group%3D14%3Aentry%3De%29%2Fgma
There is also a Glso ἔχμα ékhma < 1 ἔχω ékho, means "that which holds; and so, I.a hindrance, obstacle, Il. 2.c. gen. a bulwark, defence against a thing, c. gen., Hhymn. II.a hold-fast, stay, ἔχματα πέτρης ekhmata petres bands of rock, Il.; ἔχματα πύργων ekhmata purgon stays of the towers, id=Il.; ἔχματα νηῶν ekhmata neeoon props for the ships, to keep them upright, id=Il.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3De)%2Fxma
it is a prolific verb :)
I think that if we consider the equation tukur / dugud (or else the TKR/TKT) we could understand that the KSOD (let's say KS-T) is the equivalent (after the KS = TK thorn cluster) of TK-T, like in dugud TKT) and so of tukur > KSAY - kSinati, phtheiro, etc - the other KSAY being the root of rulership, power, holding etc kSatra etc, in Gr, ktaomai "to hold" etc.
About *seǵʰ, Mayrhofer refers to the opinions of some scholars about its relation to KSAY root for "rulership" etc, through some form sǵʰe- like in Gr. σχέτλιος skhetlios "I.of persons, properly, unwearying, σχέτλιος ἐσσι Il. 2.in bad sense, unflinching, cruel, merciless, Hom.: —so in attic, wicked, Dem., etc.:—of beasts, savage, Hdt. 3.like τλήμων, miserable, wretched, unhappy, Aesch., Eur.; often with a notion of contempt, ὦ σχετλιώτατε ἀνδρῶν O most wretched fool" etc
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dsxe%2Ftlios
Mayrhofer states, though, "not preferable" about these opinions; yet I think there could be a connection to seǵʰ, lets say SK. SK looks, indeed, like an inversed KS of KS-AY, and since the KS corresponds to the TK of the "thorn cluster", according to Kloekhorst, then this SK could correspond to the, also inversed, KT of Gr. ktaomai "to hold, to possess"; so this could be an intermediate form, between the traditional Indic and Greek forms, let's say.
I think also that the connection of a TK word to a SK one is evident in the cases of "tukur" as "silence" (according to Halloran) and "sig" silence (like in Gr. σιγή sige etc).
About the nig word for possesion etc, my first impression is that it looks like en inversed ken (kin) root (like KN/NK), which seems to be interwine with the TK cluster in words like Hit. tekan for "earth" or Gr. teknon for "offspring, child".
My assumption is that, since this "evidence" of the "possesion" words seems to be of a correspondance between the SK/NK types and the SK (of segh) seems also to be an inversed KS, corresponding (the SK), as it was said, to the KT (inversed TK), then we must expect also some connection between the ken roots (KN) and the TK (thorn clusters).
supposing from a word like ékh-ein < hékh-ein < *seǵh-.
Hesychius has also a type ἔγμεν égmen for ἔχειν ékhein. Also ἔγμα égma = ὀχύρωμα okhuroma ("stronghold") στῦλος stylos ("pillar").
I agree :) .
it is a prolific verb :)
True :) .
I think that if we consider the equation tukur / dugud (or else the TKR/TKT) we could understand that the KSOD (let's say KS-T) is the equivalent (after the KS = TK thorn cluster) of TK-T, like in dugud TKT) and so of tukur > KSAY - kSinati, phtheiro, etc - the other KSAY being the root of rulership, power, holding etc kSatra etc, in Gr, ktaomai "to hold" etc.
Very nice concept :) .
Mayrhofer states, though, "not preferable" about these opinions; yet I think there could be a connection to seǵʰ, lets say SK. SK looks, indeed, like an inversed KS of KS-AY, and since the KS corresponds to the TK of the "thorn cluster", according to Kloekhorst, then this SK could correspond to the, also inversed, KT of Gr. ktaomai "to hold, to possess"; so this could be an intermediate form, between the traditional Indic and Greek forms, let's say.
I think also that the connection of a TK word to a SK one is evident in the cases of "tukur" as "silence" (according to Halloran) and "sig" silence (like in Gr. σιγή sige etc).
I agree with you :) .
since this "evidence" of the "possesion" words seems to be of a correspondance between the SK/NK types and the SK (of segh) seems also to be an inversed KS, corresponding (the SK), as it was said, to the KT (inversed TK), then we must expect also some connection between the ken roots (KN) and the TK (thorn clusters).
Looks obvious :) .
Hello Nirjhar,
I was wondering today about some relation of *seǵh- with some SK, let's say, Sum. words, like for example this one:
sug [STAND] (21x: ED IIIb, Old Babylonian) wr. sug2 "plural stem of gub[to stand]" Akk. uzuzzu
Since ἔγμα égma ( < *seǵh-), according to Hesychius, means also στῦλος stylos ("pillar"), which, according to some scholars, is from the root of "stand" steh₂- (like in Kurdish: stûn “column, pillar”):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/steh%E2%82%82-
Makes sense IMO :) .
The other word gub [STAND] (5043x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. gub "to stand; (to be) assigned (to a task)" Akk. izuzzu, was connected by Bomhard, if you remember, to the root about "head" etc, like in Gr. κεφᾰλή (kephalḗ) f (genitive κεφᾰλῆς); first declension
Wikipedia has an article on: head; a person's life (often in the sense of being in danger, similar to the English idiom "head is on the line"); the top-most part; the most important part etc.
From Proto-Indo-European *ǵʰebʰ-l-.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%B5%CF%86%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%AE
So, since "sug" is the plural stem of "gub" and gub is supposed to be connected with "head" (like ǵʰeb), also sug is to *seǵh, then seǵh could be also connected to this Sum. word:
saĝ [HEAD] (3582x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. saĝ "head; person; capital" Akk. qaqqadu; rēšu
:D
Also saĝ [KING] wr. saĝ4 "king" Akk. šarru
Beautiful! :) .
Also, saĝ is nasalized; that leads to think also about the possible connection of *seǵh- to saĝa "priest", connected to the root of the (also nasalized) "sanctus"; root is *seh₂k-, mostly in Italic, but also in Anatolian.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/seh%E2%82%82k-
Yeah :) .
Another thing I recalled, having in mind egma ( < seǵh- ) is the word βρέγμα bregma "top of the head" (like "brain" in Germanic), from *mreK:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2Fdata%2Fie%2Fpiet&text_number=+801&root=config
Maybe is about the connection between a SK and a NK (here: NrK/>rK) word, as we were talking before.
Possible , yes :) .
If you remember this Sum. gub reminded me a Gr. word κυπάρισσος kuparissos "cypress" (possibly something like a "tree standing upright"); kupari- also reminds of a upari with an initial "k-".
There is also Skt. kakubh with meanings like "splendour", "beauty", "peak", "summit" etc; also kakubha "distinguished", "superior", "lofty" etc.
http://sanskritdictionary.com/?q=kakubh
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=kakubh&direct=au
According to Mayrhofer kakubh is IE; there is a"vague", as he notes, comparison to Gr.
κυφός kuphós, “bent forward", apparently as ka-kubh- (the verb is κύπτω (kúptō) "to bend forward, stoop down" etc.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%8D%CF%80%CF%84%CF%89
Also, according to J. Halloran's Sumerian Lexicon (ed. 2006) gub has the following meanings:
gub [DU] (-ba): to stand; to be present; to appear (in court); to be stored; to stand on (with -ni-); to set, erect, install, appoint (singular); to set down in writing; to stand by, to serve (with -da-); to serve somebody (with dative verbal prefix); to do service (with -ši-); to stand aside (with -ta-) (suppletion class verb: singular stem; cf. sug2) (to be long and throat-like in open container).
It looks to include notions like serve, set down etc, which could be compatible, I think, also with a meaning "bent down" (in a sense, this seems like the similarity of "kSatriya" and "kSudra" we've noticed before).
Another interesting thing is that in Akkadian the equivalent of saĝ "head etc" is qaqqadu "head", which looks like kakubh-; it has a version as kakud- one of its meanings is "hump".
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=kakud&direct=au
Here is the ToB Semitic comparisons about the Akkadian word for "head":
(Proto-Semitic: *ḳVdḳVd-
Afroasiatic etymology: Afroasiatic etymology
Meaning: skull, head
Akkadian: ḳaḳḳadu 'head' OA, OB on [CAD ḳ 100], [AHw 899]
Eblaitic: gag-gú-tum /ḳaḳḳudum/ [Kr 12-13; Bl E 59]
Ugaritic: ḳdḳd 'Scheitel, Haupt' [Aist 247]
Hebrew: ḳodḳōd 'skull' [KB 1071] (<*ḳudḳud-)
Judaic Aramaic: ḳodḳǝdā, ḳodḳōdā 'head, skull, vertex' [Ja 1317]; ḳwdḳd [Sok 478]
Modern Aramaic: (?) MLH kotke 'Schädel' [J Mlah 180].
Can it be eventually from *ḳVdḳVd-?
Arabic: muḳadd- 'le derrière de la tête et du cou comprise entre les deux oreilles' [BK 2 683]
Harari: ēḳäd 'front, forward, chief, head' [LHar 30] (<*ʔV-ḳad, with the prefix?)
Notes: A reduplicated stem in all SEM except ARB (a secondary formation) and HAR (likely preserving a non-reduplicated stem, though with the ʔV- prefix). Note ETH EAST: SEL WOL ZWY ḳädä 'forward, in front of, before' [LGur 472], with a current semantic shift 'head' > 'front' (see HAR below); according to Leslau, from ḳdm 'to advance, to be first, etc.' with a strange explanation "with loss of m through spirantization" [Holma 11]: AKK,HBR [KB 1071]: HBR,JUD,UGR,AKK,
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=2127&root=config
Finally, according to Hesychius is κύφερον ἢ κυφήν kupheron or kuphen = κεφαλήν kephalen (Akkusative) = head; Nominative = κύφερος kupheros or κυφή kuphe "head" (according to the Creatans).
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*k%3Aentry+group%3D192%3Aentry%3Dkufh%2Fn
also reminds of a upari with an initial "k-".
Yes , very interesting ! :) .
According to Mayrhofer kakubh is IE; there is a"vague", as he notes, comparison to Gr.
κυφός kuphós, “bent forward", apparently as ka-kubh- (the verb is κύπτω (kúptō) "to bend forward, stoop down" etc.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%8D%CF%80%CF%84%CF%89
Also, according to J. Halloran's Sumerian Lexicon (ed. 2006) gub has the following meanings:
gub [DU] (-ba): to stand; to be present; to appear (in court); to be stored; to stand on (with -ni-); to set, erect, install, appoint (singular); to set down in writing; to stand by, to serve (with -da-); to serve somebody (with dative verbal prefix); to do service (with -ši-); to stand aside (with -ta-) (suppletion class verb: singular stem; cf. sug2) (to be long and throat-like in open container).
It looks to include notions like serve, set down etc, which could be compatible, I think, also with a meaning "bent down" (in a sense, this seems like the similarity of "kSatriya" and "kSudra" we've noticed before).
Another interesting thing is that in Akkadian the equivalent of saĝ "head etc" is qaqqadu "head", which looks like kakubh-; it has a version as kakud- one of its meanings is "hump".
Finally, according to Hesychius is κύφερον ἢ κυφήν kupheron or kuphen = κεφαλήν kephalen (Akkusative) = head; Nominative = κύφερος kupheros or κυφή kuphe "head" (according to the Creatans).
Lovely suggestions :) .
Hello Nirjhar,
Searching about the cognates of κεφαλή kephale, one finds also the Tocharian spal "head":
cephalo- before vowels, cephal-, word-forming element meaning "head, skull, brain," Modern Latin combining form of Greek kephale "head, uppermost or top part, source," from PIE *ghebh-el- (source also of Tocharian spal "head;" Old High German gebal "skull;" also, via the notion of "front," Gothic gibla, Old Norse gafl "side of a facade").
https://www.etymonline.com/word/cephalo-
Also, from Tocharian B Lexicon: śpālu* (adj.) ‘superior, excellent’
[//-, śāluwentaṃts, -] śpaluwentats ywa/// (91b2). A derivative (PIE *-went-) from PTch *śpāl (gender uncertain) ‘head’ preserved as such in Tocharian A. The Tocharian forms are descendants of PIE *ghebh-(e)l- ‘head’ [: Greek kephalē ‘head,’ Gothic gibla ‘gable, pinnacle,’ OHG gibil (m.) ‘gable,’ gebal (m.) ‘cranium, head,’ Old Norse gafle (m.) ‘gableside, point of an island’ (P:423; MA:260)] (Schulze, 1923, VW:488). VW cogently suggests *ghebhōl (a nominative singular) as the preform of PTch *śpāl. Alternatively one might reconstruct with Lubotsky (1988:142) *ghébhhal-om (Tch) ~ *ghebhhal-éha- (Greek). See also śpālmeṃ and śpālmäññe...
śpālmeṃ ([indeclinable] adj.) ‘superior, excellent’ .... śpālmäññe (n.) ‘excellence’.
I am thinking now that, since from a KP-L root like in kephale we can have a SP-L one (like in Tocharian spal), we could also perhaps explain in a similar way the gub/sug alternation in Sumerian - the b/g is not such a big deal, I think, we have seen it many times before.
I am thinking now that, since from a KP-L root like in kephale we can have a SP-L one (like in Tocharian spal), we could also perhaps explain in a similar way the gub/sug alternation in Sumerian - the b/g is not such a big deal, I think, we have seen it many times before.
Yes, I agree :) .
Another thing that I cannot but mention :) is the similarity of this root *ghebh-el- with Sum. gibil meaning "new, fresh" also "sprout" at ePSD, but also "burning, glowing" etc in Halloran; a word looking like "gigir" "chariot", thought to be connected to the root of κύκλος kyklos etc "circle"; if you remember I was thinking that gibil was about circle again (like "new" could be from a ne- turn etc); so now I'm thinking that maybe *ghebh-el- is for "up" and "down" (as a wheel turning up and down), maybe the -el is only for "up, over" as the "-er/ -ar" of hyper / upari is for "up / over"; maybe "upo" is of the same protoform together with ka-kubh and kypto (but without a k):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/upo
:D
:D Sum bil (and gibil) is for "burning, glowing" etc; and in IE there are words like φλόξ phlox "flame" or φλέγμα phlegma from *bhel, with a -g-ma, like PL-K which is like the KP-L of kephale, if you say KPL-KPL > PL-K/PL-K, so it may may mean that the fire goes above (or something like that).
From Proto-Indo-European *bʰel-. Cognates include Sanskrit भर्ग (bharga) and Latin flagrō
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CE%BB%CE%AD%CE%B3%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
Nice ! :D
there is also the case of Gr. ὕψος hypsos (hupsos) height, the top, summit, high position,, grandeur, pride" From ῠ̔́ψῐ (húpsi, “aloft”), probably related to ὑπέρ (hupér, “above”).
there is a problem with this -s- in hupsos; for ῠ̔́ψι hupsi wikipedia gives this curious root *h₃ewps-:
From zero grade of Proto-Indo-European *h₃ewps-; cognate with Old Irish úas (“above”)
Frisk, in his etymolical dictionary, states that at the end this hypsi is from ὕπο hypo, hyper ὕπερ etc he mentions some celtic words, also russian vysók ‘hoch’ (*ūpso-), lat. sus- < *sub-s- (wie abs-) in sustineō u.a. several hypotheses have be made about this "s"; maybe it is a kind of k like a ky = s (hyps- < upky- , like upk/upk < kup/kup, I mean, maybe it was a kup- instead of up-) :D
I mean, maybe it was a kup- instead of up-) :D
Beautiful! :) .
or something like the root about καπνός kapnos "smoke" THAT I've mentioned also, if you remember :)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%B1%CF%80%CE%BD%CF%8C%CF%82
Yup :).
or the word kuphella κύφελλα "clouds", mentioned also by Hesychius... the notion is for "round" and "above" perhaps.
Good concept :) .
About saĝ "head", there are also meanings about "serve" etc, according to Halloran's Lexicon:
saĝ, sa12: head; leader (of the herd); person, individual; slave; servant (esp. of a god or a king) subtitute; point; front top or beginning (of a tablet); short side (of a field) in OS texts; present, gift.....
adj., first, first-class, prime.
prep., in front
It fits to the notion of ekhein "to possess, to hold" (something like "to hold / possess someone", but also to "hold f.ex. my head up, to be prominent" etc.
Hesychius has a word διάγγαρον diangaron = δικέφαλον dikephalon, meaning "with two heads"
http://dge.cchs.csic.es/xdge/%E2%80%A0%CE%B4%CE%B9%E1%BD%B1%CE%B3%CE%B3%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%87
I imagine that the -ang part could be from some similar root to saĝ (sang), then perhaps sang / (h)ang > ang- ; it looks also very much like angaria "service" and angaros "messanger" etc.
"https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%84%CE%B3%CE%B3%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
Another interesting thing is that the sign of gub "stand" is the same with the one of ĝen = "to run, to flow" (the "sug" sign is a doubled gub); that could indicate the notion that "standing" is also about "being ready to serve someone".
About a connection perhaps to the meaning of "running, flowing" concerning also saĝ, there is a river Sangarios in Phrygia:
http://www.theoi.com/Potamos/PotamosSaggarios.html
I imagine that the -ang part could be from some similar root to saĝ (sang), then perhaps sang / (h)ang > ang- ; it looks also very much like angaria "service" and angaros "messanger" etc.
Yes I understand :) .
Another interesting thing is that the sign of gub "stand" is the same with the one of ĝen = "to run, to flow" (the "sug" sign is a doubled gub); that could indicate the notion that "standing" is also about "being ready to serve someone".
Lovely :) .
About a connection perhaps to the meaning of "running, flowing" concerning also saĝ, there is a river Sangarios in Phrygia:
Intriguing! .
Hello Nirjhar,
An example of a "sig" word, concerning the comparison with *seǵh-:
sig [CAST] (836x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. sig10 "to cast; to fashion" Akk. šapāku "to heap up; pour on" (šapāku was also the Ak. equivalent of dub, for its meaning as "to pile up").
with Gr. σχῆμα skhema, like in "scheme" (< *seǵh-); from skhein, aorist tense of ekhein "to hold" etc; I think that the notion about heap up etc is close to the one we're talked about, the raised banks, "egma" etc, generally to raise or to fashion some kind of construction, to hold something solidly together, to form or to give shape to something etc.
scheme: 1550s, "figure of speech," from Medieval Latin schema "shape, figure, form, appearance; figure of speech; posture in dancing," from Greek skhema (genitive skhematos) "figure, appearance, the nature of a thing," related to skhein "to get," and ekhein "to have, hold; be in a given state or condition," from PIE root *segh- "to hold."
https://www.etymonline.com/word/scheme
σχῆμα 1 σχεῖν
1.like Lat. habitus, form, shape, figure, Eur., Ar., etc.; as a periphr., σχῆμα πέτρας ῀ πέτρα, Soph.; σχ. δόμων Eur.
2.form, figure, appearance, as opp. to the reality: a show, pretence, Thuc.; ἔχει τι σχῆμα Eur.
3.the bearing, look, air, mien of a person, Hdt., Soph.: in pl. gestures, Xen.
4.the fashion, manner, way of a thing, σχ. στολῆς fashion of dress, Soph.; σχ. βίου, μάχης Eur.: absol. dress, equipment, Ar., Plat.
5.the form, character, characteristic property of a thing, Thuc.; βασιλείας σχ. the form of monarchy, Arist.
6.a figure in dancing, Ar.: in pl. pantomimic gestures, postures, id=Ar., etc.
1 σχῆμα, ατος, τό,
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dsxh%3Dma
Maybe *seǵh fits also to this Sum. word:
sig [TIE] (91x: ED IIIb, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. sa2; sig9 "to tie (shoes)" Akk. šênu
as "to hold something together"; maybe there is a relation to Skrt. saha, sahita etc, like "together with", "joined" etc
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=saha&direct=se
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=sahi&direct=se
In Giacomo's list exists of course "Sum. sig 'to cast, pour on', PIE *sikw- 'to spill, pour', Skt. sic- 'to pour, discharge, to cast metal', seka 'pouring out, sprinkling', Av. haek- 'to pour out (water)', fra-hik/šik- 'to sprinkle, to cast metal', OHG sīhan 'to pour through a sieve'." which fits perhaps better:
I checked the meanings of šapāku at the Lexicon:
šapāku [DUB :] (once [LAL :]) ...
1) to heap up ; 2) deities on earth ... : to pour on / to lavish , liquid, molten metal ... : to pour ; 3) stative : clouds, grain ... : are piled up , are hoarded ; 4) OA : to invest capital ; 5) Gtn : to keep pouring , to pour in various places during a ritual ... ; 6) Gt : OA : to deposit in store / to store metal, textiles ... ; 7) D : corpses, grain, oil ... : to pile up , to heap up , to cast / to pour bronze ; 8) N ; passive of G : to be prostrated subjects , to be limp limbs ... ;
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=9162&language=id
about "pouring, sprinkling" etc *seikw fits better, yet maybe *seǵh is better for "pile up/ heap up / fashion" - of course there is a possibility of the connection between the roots...
About sig "tie" there is also 2. seg-, nasalized seng- 'to attach, tack on', whit sajati, perhaps sakta etc
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1660
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=sakt&direct=se
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=sajati&direct=se
All these similar "SIG" words are confusing :/
I think that the notion about heap up etc is close to the one we're talked about, the raised banks, "egma" etc, generally to raise or to fashion some kind of construction, to hold something solidly together, to form or to give shape to something etc.
Nice, yes :) .
maybe there is a relation to Skrt. saha, sahita etc, like "together with", "joined" etc
Nice comparison :) .
of course there is a possibility of the connection between the roots...
Yeah I also agree .
Hi Nirjhar, another comparison I could think of:
Sum. se [LIVE] (116x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian) wr. se12; ze2; še "plural stem of til[to live]"
and TchA śo- and B śāw- "to live"
TchA śo- and B śāw- reflect PTch *śāw- from PIE *gwyeh3-w-e/o- [: Greek zōō from *gwyeh3-(y)e/o-] or, with *-w- but with zero-grade, Latin vīvere, Sanskrit jīvati, Avestan jvaiti, OCS živǫ (further, morphologically more distant, cognates at P:467-469; MA:356)] (Smith, 1910:16, Meillet, 1914:16, VW:484-485, though differing in details). (Cf. also the exact equation between TchB śaiyye and Greek zō(i)on.) See also śaul, śaumo, śāmane, śaiyye, śaiṣṣe, śamaśke.
root gʷeyh₃-:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/g%CA%B7eyh%E2%82%83-
there must be a connection to the "notion" of moving, like in Latin vivo:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/g%CA%B7%C3%ADh%E2%82%83weti
se is also the "plural stem" of lug "dwell":
se [DWELL] (55x: ED IIIb, unknown) wr. se12; še; ze2 "plural stem of lug[to dwell]"
which is perhaps expected, since til must be connected to *kʷel / *kʷil (as already assumed), meaning "live, dwell" in this case; perhaps there is a connection between *kʷel and gʷeyh₃-.
Yes I think you suggested this beautiful suggestion before :) .
there must be a connection to the "notion" of moving, like in Latin vivo:
Yes very practical .
which is perhaps expected, since til must be connected to *kʷel / *kʷil (as already assumed), meaning "live, dwell" in this case; perhaps there is a connection between *kʷel and gʷeyh₃-.
:D .
Yes, I was thinking that I probably had suggested that before, but I was not sure if I actually did it :D
Since we are looking the Tocharian now, how about this comparison:
Sum. siki [HAIR] (4753x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. siki "wool, fleece; hair; (animal's) pelt" Akk. šārtu; šīpātu
I think it resembles to Tocharian A śāku ‘headhair.’; there is also a Tocharian B' yok2 (nnt.) (a) ‘hair [both a single hair and collective]’; (b) [either singular or plural] ‘wool’ ; though these two words seem to be unrelated, according to the lexicon :/
Here:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/40848704?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
Also here:
śāku (A): “pelo de la cabeza”, < *dek̑- “pelo” [< “hilo”], cf. sáns. daśā- “flequillo”, ing. tail “cola”, gót. tagl “un solo pelo”.
yok (AB): “vello corporal, lana”, < *yók̑u “vello corporal, esp. de animales”, cf. sáns. yā́su “± vello
púbico”, arm. asr “lana”.
(in Italian) from here:
https://minerva.usc.es/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10347/13056/2013-2014%20Carballosa%20Calleja;jsessionid=20915BA3D8846F6A3213A63099A931D9?sequence=1
looks also like Turkish saç "hair" (of the head):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sa%C3%A7#Turkish
The proposed root of Pokorny is dek̂-2 (: dok̂-, dēk̂-) "to tear"; it is the root of "tail": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tail
it includes also a Skrt. word daśā (apparently about threads hung at the skirt or fringe of a cloth)
Material Ai. daśā `die am Ende eines Gewebes hervorragenden Zettelfäden, Fransen'; ir. dūal `Locke'(*dok̂lo-); got. tagl n. `einzelnes Haar', anord. tagl n. `die Haare im Pferdeschwanz', ags. tægl (engl. tail) m. `Schwanz', ahd. zagel `Schwanz, Stachel, männliches Glied, Rute'; got.tahjan `reißen, zerren', distahjan `zerstreuen', isl. tæeja, tāa `karden', norw. dial. tæja (*tahjan) und taa (*tahōn) `fasern, zerreißen'; anord. tāg, Pl. tǣger und tāgar f. `Faser', mhd. zāch, zāhe f. `Docht, Lunte'; in anderer Bed. (`zerrend - ziehend, hinausziehend') norw. mdartl. taag `langsam und andauernd', mnd. tēge, ostfries. tāge `zähe' und ahd. zag `zögernd, unentschlossen, zaghaft' wozu zagēn `verzagt und unentschlossen sein';
vielleicht hierher als `woran man sich reißt' oder `abgerissenes, rissiges Stück', mhd. zacke m. f., nhd. Zacke, mengl. takke `fibula', engl. tack `Stift, kleiner Nagel', mit anderem Auslaut tagg, tagge m. `hervorragende Spitze, Zacke'; oder gehört Zacke zu lett. dęgums `Nase, Schuhspitze'?
References WP. I 785.
See also S. auch unter denk̂-.
Pages 191
Since we are looking the Tocharian now, how about this comparison:
That's a very good comparison :) .Do you think this is related ? :
''
keza 1 m. (%{kliz} Un2. ; ifc. %{A} or %{I} Pa1n2. 4-1 , 54) the hair of the head AV. VS. S3Br. &c. ; the mane (of a horse or lion) MB''
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=kesha&direct=au
looks also like Turkish saç "hair" (of the head):
True :) .
The proposed root of Pokorny is dek̂-2 (: dok̂-, dēk̂-) "to tear"; it is the root of "tail"
Yeah :).
keza (as Lat. caesaries) was compared with kezer [HAIR] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. ki-ze2-er "a hair-style" / kezer [HAIRSTYLE] (2x: Old Babylonian) wr. ke-ze2-er "hairstyle", wasn't it? maybe it is the same word upside down? :D
This root dek̂-2 looks like the root of "ten". Do you think there is a connection to Sum. "si" for "horn", but also "finger"? :D
maybe it is the same word upside down? :D
Yes that is also my thinking :D.
Do you think there is a connection to Sum. "si" for "horn", but also "finger"? :D
Possible! :D .
Also about this dek̂-2 rings the bell again for a possible thorn cluster (TK) :D
I agree :) . BTW can you tell me Mayrhofer's etymology on Kesara and Kesha?.
This kezer could be a KIND OF (incomplete?) KS formation (TK > KS)
Yes , chance is there :).
Also assuming again the evident :D kʷkʷ = TK equation, remembering also after Ceasar (and caesaries), also another famous old Latin person, Cincinattus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Quinctius_Cincinnatus
From Latin cincinnus (“a lock of hair”)
From Ancient Greek κῐ́κῐννος (kíkinnos), "a lock of curly hair, a ringlet" > from Proto-Indo-European *kenk-.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cincinnus#Latin
*kenk- looks like this nasalised denk̂-.:)
I agree! :) .
I have now the strange idea that *seǵʰ looks like a reversed ĝeš "tree" etc.
Interesting :) .
As the KS of the TK "thorn cluster" maybe (pointed? standing upright? erected? etc)
Yup :) .
I read also at Mayrhofer's lemma about "kakubh" that it is formed in the same way with Latin acumen "sharp point":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/acumen
I see :) .
The old Germanic gib-il "gable" (compared also with "gub" etc) looks also like "peak" upside down:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/peak
Yeah :) .
About kesa, Mayrhofer states that it is dificcult to be disconnected from Av. gaesa "curly hair etc". gaesa is from *ghait-ā, -es- (like Gr. χαίτη khaite "curly hair, mane")
English meaning curly or wavy hair
Material Von *ghait-[e]s- aus: av. gaēsa- m. `Kraushaar, Lockenhaar', npers. gēs `herabhängende Haare, Locken', av. gaēsu- `kraushaarig, lockenhaarig; (beim Kamel:) zottelhaarig'; gr. χαίτη `Lockenhaar, frei herabwallendes Haar; Mähne (von Pferden, Löwen); Baumbart'; dazu wohl der maked. PN Γαιτέας; mir. gaīset f. (aus *ghait-s-) `steifes Haar, Borste'.
Mayrhofer thinks about some contamination between the words, but maybe ghait-ā is just the KT of the thorn cluster :)
About kesara, he notes that the old connection with caesaries is not without problem; he tolds about the RUKI rule in -esar- concluding a derivation from *kesra (though there is also some other opinions); then he says that kesara cannot be totally disconnected from kesa.
Mayrhofer thinks about some contamination between the words, but maybe ghait-ā is just the KT of the thorn cluster
Yes :) .
he says that kesara cannot be totally disconnected from kesa.
I see . Thanks! :) .
Do you think that Sum. sisi for "horse" could be connected to a notion of "mane" perhaps?
Also in Greek, as you know, horse is ἵππος hippos; that hip- is for sikw- normally.
ἵππος hippos: from Proto-Hellenic *íkkʷos (compare Mycenaean Greek 𐀂𐀦 (i-qo)), from Proto-Indo-European *h₁éḱwos, from *h₁oh₁ḱu- (“swift”). Unexplained is ἱ (hi) for ἐ (e). Cognates include Sanskrit अश्व (áśva), Latin equus, Gaulish epos, Old Armenian էշ (ēš, “donkey”) and Old English eoh.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%B5%CF%80%CF%80%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
Do you think that Sum. sisi for "horse" could be connected to a notion of "mane" perhaps?
Also in Greek, as you know, horse is ἵππος hippos; that hip- is for sikw- normally.
A very good suggestion Kyriakos! :) .
Nirjhar, is something I just am thinking right now; they don't sound very normal, yet here are they:
If the word for for "horse" was initially a "TK" like "thorn cluster" word, then the closest word I can imagine in Greek is this word ταχύς takhus "fast, swift", we were talked about before (since another word ὠκύς okus etc is also said to be somehow connected with "equus"); maybe this takh- is a (semi) Indic-like version of a kind of **teg/**d(h)eg (or **tig/**d(h)ig) word (unless we say just **tag/dhag like Giacomo would say or **tig) meaning something like "mane" from a notion "pointed" (something like takhus from **dh/tak(h)wus? or **dh/tik(h)wus? for "mane-animal" in "horse"? - meaning then just "swift"?"); then the d(h)/t was vanished in the word for "horse"? leaving a h (perhaps like in dkmtom > hekaton, as Kloekhorst says? or, maybe, turned to an "s" perhaps as in the Tocharian word for mane/hair? and then dissapeared? :/
Anyway, there is also this root for a word "pointed" but also "horse" etc:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpokorny&text_number=+631&root=config
maybe this takh- is a (semi) Indic-like version of a kind of **teg/**d(h)eg (or **tig/**d(h)ig) word (unless we say just **tag/dhag like Giacomo would say or **tig) meaning something like "mane" from a notion "pointed" (something like takhus from **dh/tak(h)wus? or **dh/tik(h)wus? for "mane-animal" in "horse"? - meaning then just "swift"?"); then the d(h)/t was vanished in the word for "horse"? leaving a h (perhaps like in dkmtom > hekaton, as Kloekhorst says? or, maybe, turned to an "s" perhaps as in the Tocharian word for mane/hair? and then dissapeared?
Very intriguing! :D .
Another "intriguing" :D proposal for today, Nirjhar:
A comparison of Sumerian si for "horn", also "finger" to *so (the animate demonstrative - while *to was the inanimate demonstrative and afterwards the neuter one).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/s%C3%B3
Note that in some reflexes (like in Latin) this word is "si".
The suggestion assumes a derivation from some word meaning "pointed" (in case both for horn and finger); like in deyḱ-(“to show, instruct, tell, point out, explain”) is in the case of fingers.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/dey%E1%B8%B1-
in a kind (perhaps) like it was shown above in case of the Tocharian word for hair (di(k) / si(k) > si.)
Note also that the sign of si "horn, finger, fret" is the same with the sig9 sign (used to indicate "to place" and "to tie").
Another "intriguing" :D proposal for today, Nirjhar:
A comparison of Sumerian si for "horn", also "finger" to *so (the animate demonstrative - while *to was the inanimate demonstrative and afterwards the neuter one).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/s%C3%B3
Note that in some reflexes (like in Latin) this word is "si".
The suggestion assumes a derivation from some word meaning "pointed" (in case both for horn and finger); like in deyḱ-(“to show, instruct, tell, point out, explain”) is in the case of fingers.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/dey%E1%B8%B1-
in a kind (perhaps) like it was shown above in case of the Tocharian word for hair (di(k) / si(k) > si.)
Note also that the sign of si "horn, finger, fret" is the same with the sig9 sign (used to indicate "to place" and "to tie").
I find the suggestions remarkable Kyriakos! :) .
Thanks my friend Nirjhar :) we must search all the possibilities in these comparisons, I think; I was thinking that since the IE word for "horn" (like for example in Gr. κέρας keras "horn") is obviously connected with a word for "head" (like in Gr. κάρα kara "head"), so, it's natural also to think about a similarity (in the case of "si" etc) to the word saĝ for "head" (which I think is about a meaning "exalted, pointed, erected" etc, like in *segh, possibly also from a TK cluster, as already mentioned).
Yes! :D .
About the comparison with *so / to, my guessing isalso about an initial dental (though I cannot be sure, of course); I had in mind Gr. τόσος tosos or τόσσος tossos "so much, so very, so great" also synonym of ὅσος (hósos); from Proto-Hellenic *totsos, from Pre-Greek *totyos, from Proto-Indo-European *toti, adverb from *só. Cognate with Latin tot.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CF%8C%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%82
(Note: "to-so" is the word for "sum" ("so much") in the Mycenaean Linear B tablets, if you remember; in Linear A is ku-ro).
Of course! :) .
Yeah, and this "ku-ro" for "sum") if connected with Gr. "kyrios / kurios", as I. Mosenkis has proposed, could be also about a meaning of "top, exalted" etc:
κῡ́ρῐος • (kū́rios) m (feminine κῡρῐ́ᾱ, neuter κῡ́ρῐον); first/second declension;(of people): ruling, governing, having power;(of things): decisive, critical, authorized, valid, legal, entitled;(of times): fixed, set, appointed;(of language): literal, main, major, primary, principal; From κῦρος (kûros, “supremacy”) + -ιος (-ios, adjective suffix), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱewH- (“to swell, spread out, be strong, prevail”). Cognate with κύω (kúō), Latin cumulus & cavus, .
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%8D%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82
Another interesting thing is that in Greek there is also a word κυρίσσω kyrisso, Att. κυρίττω kyritto, fut. -ίξω (v. infr.) "butt with the horns" (like rams):
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkuri%2Fssw
Because it seems to open a possibility for a connection of kyrios to the root for horn, like in keras:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/%E1%B8%B1erh%E2%82%82-
(I don't remember if I had mentioned this before, Nirjhar).
Makes sense :) .
Because it seems to open a possibility for a connection of kyrios to the root for horn, like in keras:
I agree .
I was thinking today about some other comparison, with a possible initial dental again > s, like for example in Sum. sa [ADVICE] (46x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. sa2 "advice, counsel; resolution, intelligence" Akk. milku
or maybe with si [REMEMBER] wr. si "to remember" Akk. hasāsu.
I was thinking about a word like Gr. σῆμα(sêma), also σᾶμα (sâma) Doric "mark, sign, token" etc: From Proto-Indo-European *dʰyeh₂- (“to notice”) + -μᾰ (-ma). Cognate with Sanskrit ध्यायति (dhyāyati, “think of, imagine”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%E1%BF%86%CE%BC%CE%B1
dhyāyati seems to fit good for these Sum. words, I think.
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=dhyAyati&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
What do you think? btw, I was thinking about a comparison with σῆμα sema, since I've already proposed one with σχῆμα skhema:D
I was thinking today about some other comparison, with a possible initial dental again > s, like for example in Sum. sa [ADVICE] (46x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. sa2 "advice, counsel; resolution, intelligence" Akk. milku
or maybe with si [REMEMBER] wr. si "to remember" Akk. hasāsu.
I was thinking about a word like Gr. σῆμα(sêma), also σᾶμα (sâma) Doric "mark, sign, token" etc: From Proto-Indo-European *dʰyeh₂- (“to notice”) + -μᾰ (-ma). Cognate with Sanskrit ध्यायति (dhyāyati, “think of, imagine”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%E1%BF%86%CE%BC%CE%B1
dhyāyati seems to fit good for these Sum. words, I think.
What do you think? btw, I was thinking about a comparison with σῆμα sema, since I've already proposed one with σχῆμα skhema:D
I agree :D. Again a very nice proposition
:) About ταχύς takhus "swift" etc, I have noticed (in Frisk's Lexicon) of a name Τήχιππος Tekhippos (Eretria), of the root of takhus and hippos "horse"; this Tekhi-, according to Bechtel should imply an old name *τη̃χος tekhos = τάχος takhos "fastness, velocity etc"; another scholar Vollgraff also made a connection to the verb θήγω theego "excite" (Frisk think this comparison not sustainable, for the semantics); θήγω thego means, though, mainly "to sharpen"; and this "tekhos" looks close to the name for wall "teikhos" < *dheiĝh; the closer root meaning "sharp" is dhēigʷ-: dhōigʷ-: dhīgʷ- "to stick, plant", like in Latin figo (which looks like the fingō for knead, about the wall etc); figo is for "fix" etc (maybe it fits with the sign of si "horn, finger, fret" beeing also the same with the sig9 sign (used to indicate also "to tie", as I've mentioned already):
θήγω here:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dqh%2Fgw
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/figo#Latin
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fix
To think about a connection of "sisi" (abviously a reduplicated form) to such a root (or a similar one) like *dhēigʷ, should require first a kind sig/sig (sig < dhēig(ʷ), in a way s<dh) and then just sisi < si/si. I don't know if all this helps at all :/
:) About ταχύς takhus "swift" etc, I have noticed (in Frisk's Lexicon) of a name Τήχιππος Tekhippos (Eretria), of the root of takhus and hippos "horse"; this Tekhi-, according to Bechtel should imply an old name *τη̃χος tekhos = τάχος takhos "fastness, velocity etc"; another scholar Vollgraff also made a connection to the verb θήγω theego "excite" (Frisk think this comparison not sustainable, for the semantics); θήγω thego means, though, mainly "to sharpen"; and this "tekhos" looks close to the name for wall "teikhos" < *dheiĝh; the closer root meaning "sharp" is dhēigʷ-: dhōigʷ-: dhīgʷ- "to stick, plant", like in Latin figo (which looks like the fingō for knead, about the wall etc); figo is for "fix" etc (maybe it fits with the sign of si "horn, finger, fret" beeing also the same with the sig9 sign (used to indicate also "to tie", as I've mentioned already):
θήγω here:
Yes, I understand :) .
''To think about a connection of "sisi" (abviously a reduplicated form) to such a root (or a similar one) like *dhēigʷ, should require first a kind sig/sig (sig < dhēig(ʷ), in a way s<dh) and then just <sisi si/si. ''
I agree :) .
Another imaginative suggestion, Nirjhar. In the case of a possible reduplication of the kind of **TK/TK, for "horse", it looks almost like the numbers "four" (initial T dropped entirely) **K/T-[K] + ending -or" (maybe a horse with a four-wheels chariot?)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/k%CA%B7etw%C3%B3res
also with "eight" okto, like perhaps (initial T dropped, a laryngeal left?) **TK/T-[K] > HKT/(+dual?)maybe two horses with one chariot each?(meaning 8 wheels).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/o%E1%B8%B1t%E1%B9%93w
That these (4,8) are numbers concerning wheels / chariots is not my invention, though...
Maybe they are about fingers (like "pointed").
Another imaginative suggestion, Nirjhar. In the case of a possible reduplication of the kind of **TK/TK, for "horse", it looks almost like the numbers "four" (initial T dropped entirely) **K/T-[K] + ending -or" (maybe a horse with a four-wheels chariot?)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/k%CA%B7etw%C3%B3res
also with "eight" okto, like perhaps (initial T dropped, a laryngeal left?) **TK/T-[K] > HKT/(+dual?)maybe two horses with one chariot each?(meaning 8 wheels).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/o%E1%B8%B1t%E1%B9%93w
That these (4,8) are numbers concerning wheels / chariots is not my invention, though...
Maybe they are about fingers (like "pointed").
Beautiful , this is fascinating and practical :) .
Hi Nirjhar, this is also an imaginative comparison (maybe also about chariots):
Sum. sag [GOOD] (2955x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian) wr. sag8; sag9; sag10; šeg10; sag12 "(to be) good, sweet, beautiful; goodness, good (thing)" Akk. banû; damāqu; dumqu; ţābu
Compared to h₁su- (“good”): Zero-grade form of *h₁esu- (“good”), with possible relation to *h₁es- (“to be”)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%81su-
but with a -kh- ending like in the word "sukha":
Etymology: According to Monier-Williams (1964), the etymology of sukha is "said to be su ['good'] + kha ['aperture'] and to mean originally 'having a good axle-hole'...." Thus, for instance, in the Rig Veda sukha denotes "running swiftly or easily" (applied, e.g., to chariots). Sukha is juxtaposed with duḥkha (Sanskrit; Pali: dukkha; often translated as "suffering"), which was established as the major motivating life principles in early Vedic religion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukha
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=sukha&direct=se
There is also a loan-word in Tocharian B: sakw (nnt.) ‘(good) fortune, happiness’
"Like TchA suk ‘id.’ from Sanskrit (or a Prakrit descendant) sukhá- of the same meaning. Sakw shows the same treatment of Indic -u- as does, say, pat ‘stupa’ from buddha- (Pisani 1941-1942:2; Krause and Thomas, 1964:252)."
Very good suggestion again! . I am feeling the sukha reading it! :) .
Hi Nirjhar,
I'm glad you liked it :) yet, I'm suspicious about the derivation of the roots again... it sounds a bit silly, but the notion of "sweet" reminded me Sum. "dug" for sweet; also the word "sugar":
From Middle English sugre, sucre, from Middle French sucre, from Old French çucre (circa 13th century), from Medieval Latin zuccarum, from Old Italian zucchero, from Arabic سُكَّر (sukkar), from Persian شکر (šakar), from Middle Persian škl (šakar) (Manichaean Middle Persian (šqr)), from Sanskrit शर्करा (śárkarā, “ground or candied sugar", originally "grit, gravel”), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱorkeh₂ (“gravel, boulder”), akin to Ancient Greek κρόκη (krókē, “pebble”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sugar
So, I was thinking that maybe sukha (and *h₁esu-) are connected with a root similar to one of sugar; possibly a wrong impression, though.
Very interesting! :D
The root of sugar seems to be connected with a kind of piece like pebble. In Halloran there is also a word [na4]esig, esi: good, fine; solid, strong; ebony; diorite; olivine-gabbro. In ePSD there is: esi, wr. [na4]esi "diorite, dolerite" Akk. ušû; also esi, wr. [ĝeš]esi "a tree" Akk. ušû.
So, one wonders if *h₁esu- is connected also with this Sum. esi(g), and the original notion was about "strong" (and then good, sweet etc).
The concept is beautiful ! :) .
:) esi about "tree" looks like a Semitic root for "tree":
Proto-Semitic: *ʕīṣ̂-
Afroasiatic etymology: Afroasiatic etymology
Meaning: 'tree'
Akkadian: iṣu, iṣṣu
Ugaritic: ʕṣ
Hebrew: ʕēṣ
Geʕez (Ethiopian): ʕeḍ
Notes: Arab ʕiḍ-at- 'kind of acacia'
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=+725&root=config
:) esi about "tree" looks like a Semitic root for "tree":
True :) .
We have been already talking about śárkarā and karkara, also Gr. khalix, Sumer, kalag and gulgul et at July.
If the notion is about "strength", also with a possible s < k in (at least) some "sig" words, then I can think of an old Gr. word κίκυς kikys "strenght, vigour" as a KK word.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dki%3Dkus
the word about the pebble, though, seems to be a reduplicated "Kr" word (with the first K turning into S, because of some palatal sound); maybe some of the "sig" words are of this derivation of a k'r/k(r) > SrK > SiK (as others can be for example of a TK>SK.)
About sig [BURN] (17x: Old Akkadian, Old Babylonian) wr. sig3 "to burn (of digestion)" Akk. şarāpu "to burn, fire; dye (red)".
maybe a comparison is possible with these Tocharian words:
TchA 2tsäk- and B tsäk- reflect PTch *tsäk- from PIE *dhegwh- ‘burn’ [: Sanskrit dáhati, Avestan dažaiti ‘he burns,’ Lithuanian degù, OCS žegǫ, Albanian djek ‘I burn’ (P:240-241, with other derivatives; MA:87)] (Meillet and Lévi, 1912:24, VW:526). See also 1tsāk- and tskäññ-, and possibly cok.
We have been already talking about śárkarā and karkara, also Gr. khalix, Sumer, kalag and gulgul et at July.
Yes :) .
If the notion is about "strength", also with a possible s < k in (at least) some "sig" words, then I can think of an old Gr. word κίκυς kikys "strenght, vigour" as a KK word.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dki%3Dkus
the word about the pebble, though, seems to be a reduplicated "Kr" word (with the first K turning into S, because of some palatal sound); maybe some of the "sig" words are of this derivation of a k'r/k(r) > SrK > SiK (as others can be for example of a TK>SK.)
Yes, I agree :) .
About sig [BURN] (17x: Old Akkadian, Old Babylonian) wr. sig3 "to burn (of digestion)" Akk. şarāpu "to burn, fire; dye (red)".
maybe a comparison is possible with these Tocharian words:
TchA 2tsäk- and B tsäk- reflect PTch *tsäk- from PIE *dhegwh- ‘burn’ [: Sanskrit dáhati, Avestan dažaiti ‘he burns,’ Lithuanian degù, OCS žegǫ, Albanian djek ‘I burn’ (P:240-241, with other derivatives; MA:87)] (Meillet and Lévi, 1912:24, VW:526). See also 1tsāk- and tskäññ-, and possibly cok.
That's a very good proposal! :) . I also remember connecting it with singe :
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/singe#Etymology
and these Indic words :
''sēkk 13581 *sēkk ʻ heat, foment, roast ʼ. [Ext. -- kk -- of MIA. sē<-> < śrapáyati ʻ roasts ʼ or svḗda -- ʻ sweat ʼ?]
S. sekaṇu ʻ to toast, warm (anything) ʼ, seku m. ʻ toasting ʼ, seko m. ʻ drying up of a crop from wind or drought ʼ; P. sekṇā ʻ to warm, toast, foment ʼ, sek m. ʻ heating ʼ; WPah. (Joshi) sekṇu ʻ to warm ʼ, intr. ʻ to bask ʼ, sek m. ʻ heat (of fire or sun) ʼ; Ku. sekṇo ʻ to warm, foment ʼ; N. seknu ʻ to be warmed, be roasted ʼ; A. xekiba ʻ to roast, toast, foment ʼ, xek ʻ fomentation ʼ; B. sekā, sẽkā, chekā, chẽkā ʻ to roast, foment, sear ʼ, Or. sekibā, sekā ʻ heat applied by fire or hot water ʼ; H. seknā, sẽk° ʻ to warm, foment, toast ʼ (whence intr. siknā ʻ to be warmed, &c. ʼ); OMarw. sekaï ʻ heats, roasts, prepares ʼ; G. sekvũ ʻ to foment, bake, torment ʼ, sek m. ʻ warming a limb at a fire or with heated cloths or leaves or medicaments ʼ; M. śekṇẽ, śẽk° ʻ to warm oneself before a fire, foment, burn ʼ.
Addenda: *sēkk -- : WPah.kṭg. sékṇõ ʻ to bask in the sun ʼ.''
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.4.soas.754319
Hi Nirjhar, yes I remember this nice comparison of yours, I wonder if there is some deeper connection between these roots ;) About our conversation about kalag and karkara/sarkara, khalix etc, note that Sum. kal (precious, rare, valuable, good; also kalag "to be strong, mighty; to strengthen, mend") is also written with the same cuneiform sign as sag (sag8 or KAL); the same happens also for esi(g) for the hard rock and wood; since kal and especially kalag is a kind of "krk", let's say root, I wonder if there is a poosibility (through palatalization?) of the first k (as k'rk) and then srk > sVk, as sig / sag etc.
Also this "esi(g)" looks very close to "ensi(k)" ruler etc, in my opinion.
Wonderful suggestion! . I agree! :) .
Obviously in Sum. "dug" for "sweet, good" etc (Emesal ze2-eb) we had a comparison with KrK/TrK style words (like Lat. dolce and Gr. glyco-).
Yup :) .
Another imaginative thought now....this esi(g) looks as if close to both *h₁es- "to be" and *segh "to have, to possess, to win etc" roots; one could think almost of these roots as the two halves of some archaic, let's say, **HSK word (> **HS and **SK); assuming then an equation of laryngeal/nasal and a SK < possible K'r/K (r/l), we can find a similarity with a kind of KAL word, maybe reduplicated, like kl/k, anyway the word is ĝal, wr. ĝal2; ma-al; ga2gal2 "to be (there, at hand, available); to exist; to put, place, lay down; to have" Akk. bašû; šakānu, which seems to include both meanings of "be" and "have", also of "be available", like "stand (available to serve) etc" of sug/gub we have already seen (note that also gub is a kind of a KrP word).
Consider this, Nirjhar, as the crazy suggestion of the day :D
Very interesting!! :D .
:D also "obviously" from a Kr/K root we could lead to a KrT one (as a kind of upside TK cluster), like kratos etc we were talking about before...
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/kret-
If the K is nasalised (nK>M), we can have Mlk words (meaning "king" in some tongues), also, with the dental, we can have also MrT > mVt, then some "mud" words...
Yeah ! :D .
Another correspondence of SK /KL words must be this one:
of Sum. gala 'lamentation singer' (PIE *gal(g'h)-etc, also ĝeli "throat" in Giacomo's post)with šeg [VOICE] (28x: Old Babylonian) wr. še; šeg10; šegx(|KA×KID2|); šegx(|KA×LI|); šed15; šeg12 "voice, cry, noise" Akk. rigmu
Also a kind of KrK in this case looks like :shriek" :D
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shriek
hahaha true ! :) .
Like "KrT" is "cry" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cry
The KrK must be like Gr. κραυγή krauge "cry" (sound like derived)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%AC%CE%B6%CF%89
There is also a comparison of krauge with Sanskrit króśati (palatal second K)
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=krosati&direct=se
Yes, its very interesting.
All these words may mean a "strong" quality:
For example also šeg [FROST] (11x: ED IIIb, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. šeg9; šeg4 "snow; sleet; cold weather; frost, ice" could be connected also to a KrS/ KrT like in Latin crusta, cryo- etc
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/crusta#Latin
The connection with the root of snow also seems good; it reminds the assumed relation of Sum. nig (thing, possess) and *segh "to have", also Sieg / νίκη nike victory etc.
The KAL like is with *gel, of course :D
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/gel-
Beautiful! :) .
I'm thinking now that siki, keza, also Tocharian A śāku ‘headhair" < *dek̑-, since this last root is the root of english "tail", then perhaps to this group belongs also Gr. κέρκος kerkos "tail of a beast" (as a KrK word). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%AD%CF%81%CE%BA%CE%BF%CF%82
There are some KRK roots in Pokorny, which are maybe connected to some Sumerian "sig" word, under the same logic; like f.e. (kerk̂-:) kork̂- : kr̥k̂- "to wrinkle, become thin"; like in Latin cracens "slender, neat, graceful (as the letter C)"
Possibly from Proto-Indo-European *kerḱ- (“to become thin, to wane”), related to Sanskrit कृश (kṛśa, “thin, lean”), Lithuanian karštu (“to age”), Avestan *kərəsa, “meager, lean”.
Also compare gracilis (“thin, slender”).
As the KrK/KrS; if we turn upside down this later we perhaps could have (as the SrK) Sum. sig "thin" etc.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cracens#Latin
I think that all these forms are maybe parts of the ancient "depalatalization" process.
Another word, sag [BEAT] (186x: ED IIIb, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. sag3; sag2 "to strike, beat; weave" Akk. mahāşu
I think it is compared (under the same fashion) with krek-1 (-k̂-?) "to hit".
Material Gr. κρέκω kreko "hit" "to weave" `schlage, klopfe; schlage das Gewebe fest', κρόκη `Einschlagfaden, Gewebe', κρόξ ds., κροκοῦν `weben', κροκύς, -ύδος f. nap on cloth `Wollflocke';
aisl. hræll (*hraŋhilaz) `Stab zum Festmachen des Gewebes', ags. hrēol (*hrehulaz) `Haspel'; ags. hrægl n. `Kleid, Gewand', engl. rail, afries. hreil; ahd. hregil n. `indumentum, spolium'; lett. krękls `Hemd'; wenn das lett. Wort sein zweites k durch westidg. Einfluß empfangen hat, kann auch folgende slav. Sippe angereiht werden: russ. krešú, kresátь `mit dem Feuerstahl Feuer schlagen', klr. kresáty, kresnúty `Feuer schlagen', dial. `hauen, schlagen überhaupt', skr. krȅšēm, krèsati `Feuer schlagen; Steine behauen; Aste abschlagen' (usw., s. Berneker 611).
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1030
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dkre%2Fkw
The same for sig [PLUCK] (48x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. sig7; sig8 "to pluck hair or wool; (to be) trimmed, pruned" Akk. sepû ša šarti; urrû
btw I found funny that there is a root krek-2, kr̥k- "roe; slimy stuff in water"
Material Aisl. hrogn n., ahd. (h)rogan, rogen `Rogen, Laich'; lit. kurkulaĩ Pl. `Froschlaich', lett. kur̂kulis ds., lit. apkurkóti `sich mit Wassermoos beziehen'; trotz lautlicher Schwierigkeiten hierher die slav. Sippe von serb. ȍkrijek `Wassermoos, Algen', slov. krė́k, žabo-krė́čina `Froschlaich' usw., ablaut. slov. krâk `Froschlaich; grüner Überzug an Pfützen, Wassermoos', mit auffälligem ja: russ. krjak `Froschlaich', čech. mdartl. okřaky `Sammelname für Wasserpflanzen'?
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1031
which is in Sum. zizna [ROE] wr. zizna[ku6] "fish roe" Akk. binītu
while in Skrt. śiśna is "tail, penis", which is in Greek κέρκος kerkos (tail, penis), mentioned already above.
Here must be a connection also with the ken roots (in Sum. we have seen also kun "tail").
I think that all these forms are maybe parts of the ancient "depalatalization" process.
Interesting :) .
I think it is compared (under the same fashion) with krek-1 (-k̂-?) "to hit".
I agree .
The same for sig [PLUCK] (48x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. sig7; sig8 "to pluck hair or wool; (to be) trimmed, pruned" Akk. sepû ša šarti; urrû
Yes .
Here must be a connection also with the ken roots (in Sum. we have seen also kun "tail")..
I agree :) .
I think that Sum. words like silig or zalag follow also the same pattern: for example zalag (or sulug) could be a kind of K'rK word again, the K'r part been the sawel-/hel-/sol-/svar- etc; alo the cal- (of calorie etc) < *kelH.
Yes, quite possible :) .
Also the saras- of Sarasvati.
As from K'rK' ; Sum. "sug" means also "marsh".
Yup ! :) .
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