The K'r- part of the **K'rK' (> for saras), if nasalized (like in Sumerian ĝ), given also the ĝ = m (Emesal)equation, could give also the *mar- (for mare "sea" etc).
The K'r- part of the **K'rK' (> for saras), if nasalized (like in Sumerian ĝ), given also the ĝ = m (Emesal)equation, could give also the *mar- (for mare "sea" etc).
Yes, I also think that Kyriakos :) .
From a meaning of "stretching" probably; like in Sumerian ĝar/mar ("to place", like μάρη mare = "hand" in Greek).
"sea" must be from the "sig" word in this case: From Middle English see, from Old English sǣ (“sea, lake”), from Proto-Germanic *saiwiz (compare West Frisian see, Dutch zee, German See, Norwegian sjø, Swedish sjö), probably either from Proto-Indo-European *sh₂ey-u̯o- 'to be fierce, afflict' (compare Latin saevus (“wild, fierce”), Tocharian saiwe (“itch”), Latvian sievs, sīvs (“sharp, biting”); more at sore)[1] or derived from *sīhwaną (“to percolate, filter”), in which case *saiwiz is from earlier *saigwiz, Pre-Germanic *soykʷís.[2] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sea
Who knows why only Greek has (from the **K'rK') a TrK/TrS word for "sea" (dalankha/thalassa)... In case of a **K'rK' for "head", there is the *kar-/sar- K'r, maybe from the same "root" :D the Sum, saĝ (<S(r)K (the second k nasalized); also there could be a connection to the semitic raʾš- "head" (from the -rS < -rK' of K'rK'), perhaps.
ĝuruš "young adult male; able-bodied male worker" follows also the **K'rK' pattern, I believe; maybe with kouros/koure, marya/meirax; also parikeh/pallake etc :D
''In case of a **K'rK' for "head", there is the *kar-/sar- K'r, maybe from the same "root" :D the Sum, saĝ (<S(r)K (the second k nasalized); also there could be a connection to the semitic raʾš- "head" (from the -rS < -rK' of K'rK'), perhaps.''
:D .
''ĝuruš "young adult male; able-bodied male worker" follows also the **K'rK' pattern, I believe; maybe with kouros/koure, marya/meirax; also parikeh/pallake etc :D '' Yes! :) .
About sag etc, I remembered now the other word zid "right; to be right, true, loyal", which had reminded me, if you remember, satya and Gr. eteos; now I am thinking also of another Gr. word ἐσθλός esthlos (or ἐσλός eslos; it looks to be of the same root): "good (of a person), good at fighting, soldierly, warlike, brave; worthy, serviceable, skilled, morally good, faithful, showing good judgement (of things or abstractions); good, excellent, fine, helpful, useful." https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%90%CF%83%CE%B8%CE%BB%CF%8C%CF%82
In most of the qualities of ἐσθλός esthlos, the contrary term is κακός kakos (except of its notion "ugly", which as contrary has καλός kalos "beautiful, handsome" κακός kakos ="As a measure of quality: bad, worthless, useless; As a measure of appearance: ugly, hideous; Of circumstances: injurious, wretched, unhappy; As a measure of character: low, mean, vile, evil https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%BA%CF%8C%CF%82 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%BB%CF%8C%CF%82 do you think that κακός kakos could be compared to dasa (somehow)?
Maybe connecyed to dus- (dur-) etc, something like from a possible < **g'wak'/**k'wak'- perhaps? :D https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/dus- Mayrhofer at the lemma about 'dusa' mentions the Mycenaean 'do-e-ro', an ominous word, which is thought to be connected to classical doulos "servant, sclave"; while others say it could mean "Dorian".
do you think that κακός kakos could be compared to dasa (somehow)?.
Interesting .
something like from a possible < **g'wak'/**k'wak'- perhaps? :D
Yes I also think this :D .
Mayrhofer at the lemma about 'dusa' mentions the Mycenaean 'do-e-ro', an ominous word, which is thought to be connected to classical doulos "servant, sclave"; while others say it could mean "Dorian". .
Hi Nirjhar, Do you think that Sum. galam [STAIRCASE] wr. [ĝeš]galam "staircase, ladder" Akk. simmiltu could be compared to Gr. κλῖμᾰξ (klîmax) f "ladder, staircase" etc? From κλῑ́νω (klī́nō, “I bend, lean”) > From Proto-Indo-European *ḱley-. Cognates include Sanskrit श्रयति (śrayati) and Latin clīnō. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%BB%E1%BF%96%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%BE#Ancient_Greek https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%BB%CE%AF%CE%BD%CF%89#Ancient_Greek "ladder" from the same root (<hlaidrijō), here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/%E1%B8%B1ley- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/hlaidrij%C5%8D
Do you think that Sum. galam [STAIRCASE] wr. [ĝeš]galam "staircase, ladder" Akk. simmiltu could be compared to Gr. κλῖμᾰξ (klîmax) f "ladder, staircase" etc? From κλῑ́νω (klī́nō, “I bend, lean”) > From Proto-Indo-European *ḱley-. Cognates include Sanskrit श्रयति (śrayati) and Latin clīnō.
Of course! . Looks strong again :) .
For kakos etc, ToB has a root kak' "insignificant' (though the Nostratic is about bad), Avestan "kasu", 'small, insignificant':
Do you think that the word gulma you had proposed could be a kind of centum-like version of this root? I checked at Mayrhofer and he says that its structure, as "gul-ma", is definetely IE and the ideas about non-IE origin are not convincing. http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=gulma&direct=au
Also, this *kley root looks like *ktey (compared to tuku etc); also like the *(s)lei- of "slime" etc (like in leimax, lomaca, for "snail" we have compared with Sum. lum); maybe then this *s(lei) is just a "satem-like" root, like for example a centum like *gleh₁y- ("glue" etc): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/gleh%E2%82%81y-
Do you think that the word gulma you had proposed could be a kind of centum-like version of this root?
Yes, it looks good Kyriakos :) .
Also, this *kley root looks like *ktey (compared to tuku etc); also like the *(s)lei- of "slime" etc (like in leimax, lomaca, for "snail" we have compared with Sum. lum); maybe then this *s(lei) is just a "satem-like" root, like for example a centum like *gleh₁y- ("glue" etc):
Sorry, I should write *k'tey, *k'ley... I think *k'ley looks also like *k'ey, at the end, for "lay down": http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=++1498&root=config
for example, in words for "bed", Skrt. śéte, śayate, -ti `to lie, lie down, rest'; śayā́, śayyā f. `bed, couch', also Gr. κοίτη koite for bed etc, which has another counterpart in Gr. κλίνη kline "bed" (from κλίνω < k'ley); so these could be compered perhaps to Sum. kina or kinu = bed; ePSD has kinud [BEDROOM] (119x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ki-nud "sleeping quarter, bed" Akk. mayyaltu; mayyālu (as perhaps from a root like k'ey but with a -n ending like śayyāna etc)
Sumerian has also a word nud [LIE] (419x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. nud; nux(|HU.NA2|) "to lie down (of people); to lay down; to be ill" Akk. utulu; at Foxvog's Sum. Glossary is nú(d), nux(SA4) to lie (down), bed down, go to bed; to lay down (e.g. traps, snares, sheaves; see Sjöberg, AV Klein 297); to creep, slither Previously read ná. For the value nux see še21; Veldhuis, in Education 284, calls še21 "the inanimate complement of nú."
This še21 (SA4) is the writing of še = to call, but also one of the writings of šed "to lie down (of animals); to rest, sleep (of animals)", you have compared to *sed (as a satem version of *kei I think?) the other writing beeing šex(NA2)
There is also κνώσσω knosso "slumber"; which I think it can be related to this root (if s- <k'- perhaps): http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dknw%2Fssw
Also there must be a connection to the root of "nod" and "need" from Proto-Indo-European *new- (“to incline, tend, move, push, nod, wave”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/need
proto N. Dravidian *kī-d- "to lay down" reminded me of Sum. karkid (prostitute). http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fdrav%2fndret&text_number=+372&root=config
κνώσσω knosso reminds of the city of Knossos; ("laid down"? as "establishment" perhaps?) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knossos
An poto-Semitic root *nwm "slumber" etc seems to be quite close: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=1218&root=config
Also a another proto-Semitic one *nVwVḫ- 'rest' http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=1846&root=config From Akkadian nâḫu (Hebrew: nwḥ) is said to be derived biblical Noah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah_(name)
Another ancient Gr. word that I can think is νῶκαρ nṓkar "lethargy, coma" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*n%3Aentry+group%3D35%3Aentry%3Dnw%3Dkar probably related to nekros "dead" etc; the lexicon says that the ṓ instead of e could be an influence from κῶμα (kôma) deep sleep, lethargy, coma https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%E1%BF%B6%CE%BC%CE%B1#Ancient_Greek "Uncertain. Probably related to κεῖμαι (keîmai, “I lie”), κοιμάω (koimáō, “I lay”)."
A possibility with "dead" ir rather "to kill" is in Halloran (ed. 2006), where it is "nud, nu2: to lie down; to lie together with (with -da-); to lay down (with -ni-); to sleep; to lie in wait, to catch with a trap, to kill (cf., nu2-nu2; [giš]nad3) (nu, 'not', + ed2, 'to go out')."
(btw nṓkar looks also close to nakar (nṓkar could be also close to noγor) :p; if Knossos is connected to κνώσσω knosso "το slumber", also having to do with "lain down, establihed, settled" maybe nakar / nagar / nagara means something similar :D
An poto-Semitic root *nwm "slumber" etc seems to be quite close
Yes :) .
Also a another proto-Semitic one *nVwVḫ- 'rest' http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=1846&root=config From Akkadian nâḫu (Hebrew: nwḥ) is said to be derived biblical Noah
Yes its very interesting :) .
Another ancient Gr. word that I can think is νῶκαρ nṓkar "lethargy, coma" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*n%3Aentry+group%3D35%3Aentry%3Dnw%3Dkar probably related to nekros "dead" etc; the lexicon says that the ṓ instead of e could be an influence from κῶμα (kôma) deep sleep, lethargy, coma
:D .
nṓkar looks also close to nakar (nṓkar could be also close to noγor) :p; if Knossos is connected to κνώσσω knosso "το slumber", also having to do with "lain down, establihed, settled" maybe nakar / nagar / nagara means something similar :D
Except from šita there is also another Sum. word udug [WEAPON] (5x: Old Babylonian) wr. udug2; u3-dug4; u2-tu-ug "stick; a weapon" Akk. kakku, which seems again a TK word with a prothetic vowel. It reminds me a bit of Gr. οὐτάω outao "to wound" etymology uknown (but in this case combined with a TK cluster??) οὐτάω outao 1.to wound, hurt, hit with any kind of weapon; properly opp. to βάλλω, to wound by striking or thrusting, id=Il.; cf. οὐτάζω; κατ᾽ οὐταμένην ὠτειλήν by the wound inflicted 2.sometimes, generally, to wound, like βάλλω, Eur. [ὠτειλή oteile means "wound" < **wat-?/ **wot-? as it seems there is a lithuanian votìs an a latvian vâts "wound" etc]
Sorry, I forget the suggestion about šita [WEAPON] (52x: Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. šita2; [ĝeš]šita2; [ĝeš]šita4; [ĝeš]šitax(|KAK.GIŠ|) "a weapon" Akk. kakku. I meant it reminded me also about kSiti- "destruction" etc (like in the comparison about tukul, xylon, etc - a "thorn cluster")...
Of course the TK cluster in Greek about killing etc is found in κτείνω kteino, "to kill, to slaughter"... http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dktei%2Fnw
About udug/utug another assumption could be about a connection to Gr. ὀξύς "sharp": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%80%CE%BE%CF%8D%CF%82 if we consider that ks- is supposed to be not just from *h₂eḱ- +s , but of a kind of Htk- > **otk- "thorn cluster" which turned **oks- in Indo-Greek (tk>ks like in Indic), (o=u in Sumerian, so an **otk could mean "sharp, "wounding pointed stick" or something like).
if we consider that ks- is supposed to be not just from *h₂eḱ- +s , but of a kind of Htk- > **otk- "thorn cluster" which turned **oks- in Indo-Greek (tk>ks like in Indic), (o=u in Sumerian, so an **otk could mean "sharp, "wounding pointed stick" or something like).
There is also gaz [KILL] (402x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. gaz; gaz2; kaz8 "to kill, slaughter; to grind, grate; to beat; to thresh (grain); to execute, impose a death sentence; to break" Akk. dâku "to kill; to beat"; habātu "plunder"; hašālu; kaşāşu "to grind, grate"; pa'āşu; šagāšu "to kill, slaughter". looking also like a kind of vocalized KS (Akk. dâku "to kill" seems also like a TK cluster).
I think it is also possible that a word like "axis" etc is of proto-Indic origin (because of the -ks-); from a "TK" again word (meaning a kind of stick or pole, most probably) axis: From Proto-Indo-European *h₂eḱs- (“axis”); see also Lithuanian ašis (“axle”), Sanskrit अक्ष (akṣa, “axle, axis, balance beam”), Ancient Greek ἄξων (áxōn, “axle”), Old High German ahsa (“axle”), and Old English eax, English axle, eax, Icelandic öxull, öksull. What do you think about it? (as I have said, I'm suspicious of a h₂eḱ-s derivation, I think that h₂eḱ- as such is a secondary root, of a TK cluster; something like "stick" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/stick).
What do you think about it? (as I have said, I'm suspicious of a h₂eḱ-s derivation, I think that h₂eḱ- as such is a secondary root, of a TK cluster; something like "stick"
I think its very interesting :) . About the root of stick (https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1884) . There is also (s)tei- (https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1882)
it could be something like **HTK, similar to this "udug" word (which btw reminded me also of this root which we were talked before, at Giacomo's posts: *wedh-:
it could be something like **HTK, similar to this "udug" word (which btw reminded me also of this root which we were talked before, at Giacomo's posts: *wedh-:
For this I'not sune, Nirjhar, it's just an impression: az [BEAR] (248x: ED IIIa, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium) wr. az; ĝešaz "bear; ~ figurine" Akk. asu with the IE root for "bear" (but as ffrom a kind of **ars-, like in Arm. arj, or Lat. ursus. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82%C5%95%CC%A5t%E1%B8%B1os
Hi Nirjhar, An impression :D that I also have is that this "az" could be connected to that "gaz"; so I would say now that maybe gaz is from some **K(v)TK (perhaps with TK>TS, z=ts?, then z = s?); so that "az" could be just H(r)TK > H(/)ts > Hs? :D Also the "az" for "myrtle" could mean a bush with thorny leafs (or something like).
BTW "Ayish" or "Ash" is the name of "bear" in Hebrew (a similar name also is in Akkadian, I think); yet, it is not about "bear" the animal, which has a different name, but "bear" as the constellation ("Great Bear"):
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5906.htm
Most probably this "ayish" or "ash" is from Sumerian.
I would say now that maybe gaz is from some **K(v)TK (perhaps with TK>TS, z=ts?, then z = s?); so that "az" could be just H(r)TK > H(/)ts > Hs? :D Also the "az" for "myrtle" could mean a bush with thorny leafs (or something like).
I understand :) .
Most probably this "ayish" or "ash" is from Sumerian.
About Sum. az "myrtle" (Akk. asu), in Greek myrtle is μυρτος myrtos; yet, I was thinking about the name of some other bush, juniper, which is in Greek ἄρκευθος (árkeuthos): "juniper, Juniperus macrocarpa; Phoenician cedar, Juniperus phoenicea; prickly cedar, Juniperus oxycedrus". https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%84%CF%81%CE%BA%CE%B5%CF%85%CE%B8%CE%BF%CF%82 mainly because "bear" is also in Greek ἄρκος árkos (main name ἄρκτος árktos).
;) the lexicon about arkeuthos mentions also a Skrt. name RkSara "thorn" (but it is also about bears, as I see):D http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=rksara&direct=se
The possible pronouncuation of Sum. "az" (according to this proposed derivation from a Hrtk- / Hrkt- of "bear"), seems to me like Germ. Arzt "doctor" /aːɐ̯tst/ (standard); /aːts(t)/ (common; particularly northern and central Germany), which is supposed to be derived from Gr. ἀρχίατρος arkhiatros "arch-doctor, arch-physician" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Arzt :D
seems to me like Germ. Arzt "doctor" /aːɐ̯tst/ (standard); /aːts(t)/ (common; particularly northern and central Germany), which is supposed to be derived from Gr. ἀρχίατρος arkhiatros "arch-doctor, arch-physician"
Another tree name which could look like "az" I think is the ash-tree: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ash From a possible *h₃osk- (here the Gr. word is ὀξύα oxúa, “beech” (which looks like ὀξῠ́ς oxús "sharp, pointed"); meanwhile the Gr. word φήγος phegos, which normally could mean "beech", means "oak, acorn": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CE%B7%CE%B3%CF%8C%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
Another curious idea of today is a comparison of Sum. azag [TABOO] (6x: Old Babylonian) wr. azag "taboo, forbidden thing" Akk. asakku with this Gr. word: αἶσχος (aîskhos) n (genitive αἴσχεος or αἴσχους); third declension "dishonour, shame, disgrace, ugliness" 9etymology unclear). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B1%E1%BC%B6%CF%83%CF%87%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek (though, obviously, it is not exactly a "taboo", but certainly something that dishonours somebody if he/she does it).
Frisk in his Etymological Greek Dictionary has a Gothic word aiwiski "shame"; though the IE root (if any) is not known: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%F0%90%8C%B0%F0%90%8C%B9%F0%90%8D%85%F0%90%8C%B9%F0%90%8D%83%F0%90%8C%BA%F0%90%8C%B9#Gothic
?(It reminds me the word "whiskey" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/whiskey From Irish uisce beatha and Scottish Gaelic uisge-beatha (literally “water of life”), calque of Latin aqua vitae, from Proto-Celtic *udenskyos (“water”) + Proto-Celtic *biwotos (“life”).
?(It reminds me the word "whiskey" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/whiskey From Irish uisce beatha and Scottish Gaelic uisge-beatha (literally “water of life”), calque of Latin aqua vitae, from Proto-Celtic *udenskyos (“water”) + Proto-Celtic *biwotos (“life”).
:D but I think it's not about water (or is it :p ); the ending could be -skos though... There is also ᾰ̓́γος (ágos) n (genitive ᾰ̓́γεος or ᾰ̓́γους); third declension "awe, reverence, dread; curse, pollution, guilt; abomination; expiatory sacrifice" Etymology: Uncertain. Most commonly explained as from Proto-Indo-European *h₂ego-, with cognates such as Sanskrit आगस् (ā́gas) and Old English acan (English ache) (i.e. Beekes, Pokorny). However, Chantraine prefers a relation to ἅγιος (hágios, “holy”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%84%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%82
Look also here, at these interesting comparisons of Malory/Adams etc: https://books.google.gr/books?id=lzilBQAAQBAJ&pg=PT408&lpg=PT408&dq=aiwiski+%22shame%22&source=bl&ots=Zn-TScmtX4&sig=C_BSdISVfzO_K73pZZgahQ8WDEQ&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjPkdv1z5PYAhXB3KQKHRobAnQQ6AEILTAB#v=onepage&q=aiwiski%20%22shame%22&f=false
Another interesting comparison is to Tocharian yäsk- (vt.) ‘± sully’ (?) Ps. II /yäsk'ä/e-/ [MP -, -, yaṣtär//] [śault]s[a] wärññai yäṣträ ma nrai[ṣṣana wäntarwasa] [the suggestion for filling the latter lacuna is entirely my own] ‘all [his] life long he does not sully himself with hellish things’ (143a3) [if this does not belong with yäs-]. Perhaps this yäsk- reflects the same PIE *h4isgh- seen in Hittite iskuna(hh)- ‘stain; stigmatize, denounce; degrade, disgrace’ and iskunant- ‘stained,’ the zero-grade of *h4eisgh- seen in Greek aiskhūnō ‘make ugly, disfigure, dishonor,’ aiskhūnē (f.) ‘shame, dishonor,’ and aiskhrós ‘ugly, deformed, dishonoring, shameful’ (unless the Greek too represents a zero-grade with "breaking" of *-i- after *h4- as presumed by some). For the Greek and Hittite, see Puhvel, 1984:426-428. See also aiskatstse.
About the implications of this comparison with Hit. iskuna etc, look also here: https://books.google.gr/books?id=5S9z2klfvq0C&pg=PA174&lpg=PA174&dq=Hittite+iskuna&source=bl&ots=rvDJ8gDdY3&sig=qPfi-zvbKo3SlbRugaR1MXLUQCs&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj2nbzg2pPYAhVP_KQKHcxZBmsQ6AEIMjAC#v=onepage&q=Hittite%20iskuna&f=false
but I think it's not about water (or is it :p ); the ending could be -skos though...
Yes :) .
"awe, reverence, dread; curse, pollution, guilt; abomination; expiatory sacrifice" Etymology: Uncertain. Most commonly explained as from Proto-Indo-European *h₂ego-, with cognates such as Sanskrit आगस् (ā́gas) and Old English acan (English ache) (i.e. Beekes, Pokorny). However, Chantraine prefers a relation to ἅγιος (hágios, “holy”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%84%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%82
Look also here, at these interesting comparisons of Malory/Adams etc:
Yes , they are interesting :) .
Perhaps this yäsk- reflects the same PIE *h4isgh- seen in Hittite iskuna(hh)- ‘stain; stigmatize, denounce; degrade, disgrace’ and iskunant- ‘stained,’ the zero-grade of *h4eisgh- seen in Greek aiskhūnō ‘make ugly, disfigure, dishonor,’ aiskhūnē (f.) ‘shame, dishonor,’ and aiskhrós ‘ugly, deformed, dishonoring, shameful’ (unless the Greek too represents a zero-grade with "breaking" of *-i- after *h4- as presumed by some). For the Greek and Hittite, see Puhvel, 1984:426-428. See also aiskatstse.
About the implications of this comparison with Hit. iskuna etc, look also here:
This *h4isgh- etc looks like a kind of "sig" SK reversed KS/TK word (like *segh "hold" etc); also a kind of "KrK" is not far away from the HrTK/rKS/HrKT for "bear" (the second K replaced by a full thorn cluster TK/KS/KT); the roots like HK- also seem secondary; "azag" could then have been derived from some initially form like **HTK-HK (maybe it's about a notion of touching / defilement with TK for tak-, touch etc- I'm not sure if there could be an initially a- in aiskhos - probably not).
"azag" could then have been derived from some initially form like **HTK-HK (maybe it's about a notion of touching / defilement with TK for tak-, touch etc
Sum. azag "taboo" is written as kug "bright" + an "up, sky", as obviously something remote inspiring the awe (or shame, reminds of Sum. "teš"); so perhaps if one touches it, this is a dishonour or stigmatization for this person (like Gr. aiskhos); about the Gr. comparison, the meaning of aiskhūnō as ‘to make ugly, disfigure" is secondary, according to the lexicon, used in this meaning by Plato.
so perhaps if one touches it, this is a dishonour or stigmatization for this person (like Gr. aiskhos); about the Gr. comparison, the meaning of aiskhūnō as ‘to make ugly, disfigure" is secondary, according to the lexicon, used in this meaning by Plato.
About the notion of "pointed" etc, and the possibility of roots like HTK (or even KTK) etc, in Greek there are some words like κάκτος kaktos "cactus" (<**KTK?), ἀκτή (aktḗ) "headland, cape, promontory; any raised place" (<**HTK?); ἀκτῑ́ς • (aktī́s) "ray, beam;(figuratively) brightness, splendor; spoke (of a wheel) (about the etymology of this last one: "Unclear. Sometimes compared with Sanskrit अक्तु (aktu, “beam, ray”)[1][2], but there are difficulties in semantics."
About azad [SHELTER] (2x: Old Babylonian) wr. azad2; azadx(|A.LAGAB×HAL.ŠU2|) "reed shelter" Akk. ašāšu Do you think a comparison with chadati fits? http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=chadati&direct=se From sk̂ed- "to cover" Material Ai. chadati (unbelegt), chādáyati `bedeck, verbirgt', chattra-m `Schirm', chadíṣ- n. `Decke, Dach'; av. sādayantī- `ein Kleidungsstück' (skyth. Hose?), afghan. psōləl `to put on, wear' (*pati-upa-sad-); ahd. hāz m., mhd. hǣze n. `Rock, Kleidung', ags. hǣteru Nom. Pl. n. `Kleider'.
Reminds also (s)keu-2, (s)keu̯ə : (s)kū- "to cover" (with a dental extension) https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1752 The initial vowel though is not easily explained.
Another possible word is chattra (like chata) etc From Proto-Indo-European *skh₃tos (“shade”). Cognate with Ancient Greek σκότος (skótos, “darkness”), English shadow and Old Irish scáth (“shade”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%9B%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0#Sanskrit I think though that the *sked root fits better; it looks also like the *ket for Latin catinus etc https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/catinus Pokorny's Root: kē̆t-, kot- dwelling space [something circular in shape, like a hole in the ground, or a nest etc] Material Av. kata- m. `Kammer, Vorratskammer, Keller od. dgl.' (: got. hēþjō), npers. kad `Haus', woraus finn. kota; aber über anord. kot `schlechte Hütte', kytja `Hütte', ags. cot `Hütte, Kammer' usw. s. oben S. 393 f.; got. hēþjō `Kammer'; ksl. kotьcь`cella, Nest' usw.; falls `Wohngrube, Loch in der Erde' die ursprüngliche Bedeutung, würden sich anreihen lassen: gr. κοτύλη, κότυλος `Hohlung', weiter `hohles Gefäß, Schale, Becher'; lat. catīnus `eine Schüssel zum Speisenauftragen' (Demin. catillus, daraus got. katils, dt. Kessel, daraus wieder abg. kotъlъ, lit. kãtilas) = ags. heden `Kochgeschirr'. These kind or words are similar to words from other language families (as it is said). This "kot" fits well, I think to Sum. gud [NEST] (55x: Old Babylonian) wr. gud3; gigud3 "coil of bird's nest; reed nest, shelter; nest" Akk. hīšu; kumāşu; qinnu (most probably we have talked about this comparison, or some similar, before). Note that the Akkadian equivalent of azad "ašāšu" means also "a type of nest made by waterfowl"; so it must be a rounded structure similar to a nest, also to a head (azad is also "head" in Sumerian). Maybe azad is from a kind of HTK-HT > HKT-HT > HSK-HT? (the first HTK from a (s)teg "cover" ) :D
These kind or words are similar to words from other language families (as it is said). This "kot" fits well, I think to Sum. gud [NEST] (55x: Old Babylonian) wr. gud3; gigud3 "coil of bird's nest; reed nest, shelter; nest" Akk. hīšu; kumāşu; qinnu (most probably we have talked about this comparison, or some similar, before). Note that the Akkadian equivalent of azad "ašāšu" means also "a type of nest made by waterfowl"; so it must be a rounded structure similar to a nest, also to a head (azad is also "head" in Sumerian). Maybe azad is from a kind of HTK-HT > HKT-HT > HSK-HT? (the first HTK from a (s)teg "cover" ) :D
There is also a Gr. word σκύτη (or σκύτα) skyte (or skyta) "head"; also "neck" (looks like σκῦτος "skin" for some reason, which is in Pokorny's *skeu root) http://etymology_el_en.enacademic.com/6450/%CF%83%CE%BA%E1%BD%BB%CF%84%CE%B7 skyte is though to be a pre-Greek word (the only comparison is to a Lithuanian skutna "bald head" etc). There is also a Dorian word κοττίς kottis (or κοτίς kotis) meaning κεφαλή kephale "head". The σκύτη skyte word looks again like sukud(r) for "high" perhaps.
Hi Nirjhar, The assumption of the day :D (not at all sure about it): it's about akud [CRIPPLE] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. a2-kud "cripple" Akk. akû (most probably in Sumerian is also "aku", ku5 is the sign of Sum. kud " cut" etc; I checked at CAD and it states that Sum. aku is from Akkadian aku and not the opposite; on the other hand I couldn't find any semitic root for "aku"). The comparison is to a Hittite word "ikniyant- "crippled, paralytic, lame" etc:
Yeah :) the Gr. word mentioned at the Hittite lemma about "ikniyant" is ὄκνος oknos meaning "shrinking, hesitation, unreadiness, sluggishness; alarm, fear", also a later meaning is "laziness"; the root is unknown and the word is not about a meaning of "cold" or "invalid, lame" etc, but of a kind of weakness, fear etc; I've noticed another Akkadian aku "weak, powerless, humble"; maybe they are connected :P http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=2273&language=id
On the other hand, the "normal" root for fear etc, close perhaps to the other aku, is *h₂egʰ- (the root of "awe") the Gr. reflexes here are ἄχνυμαι (ákhnumai) "to be troubled, to be sad", ἄχος "sorrow, pain" etc. https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0015 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82eg%CA%B0-
Also snake (causing fear, maybe?) http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=ahi&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3 (the roots of "snow" and "snake" are close, too.)
Another word ad [CRIPPLED] (5x: Old Babylonian) wr. ad4 "(to be) crippled" Akk. kubbulu is written by a sign called "za tenu", meaning a "za" = man in an oblique position. A word I found in Hesychius is ἰάδος iados = στρεβλός streblos ("crooked"). Maybe "crooked" could mean also "disabled" and this iados looks like from some **yad; though I have no idea about its etymology.
Hesychius has also a ἰάδει = καθεύδει (iadei = katheudei) meaning "he/she sleeps/lies for sleeping"; καθεύδω katheudo is from κατά kata + εὕδω heudo, this latter (of uknown etymology, also) looks from some **sew-d (while the root for somnus and hupnos "sleep" is *swep). http://etymology_el_en.enacademic.com/2655/%CE%B5%E1%BD%95%CE%B4%CF%89 It looks a bit like the proposed root for "sick" (*sewg) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sick
German "krank" meaning "sick" is also from a root meanining "crooked, weak": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/krank This is a kind of "KRK" :D word (its ultimate root *ger is totally Germanic, I think); "sick" on the other hand looks like a kind of "SK" word; the KK (K'K?) word could perhaps correspond to Sum. gig "sick"; sig also means "(to be) weak/low/thin/narrow". Gr. εὕδω heudo, though, means "to sleep" without a notion of ilness or deformity (sometimes reminds me Sum. udi, wr. u3-di "(to be) dazed; sleep" Akk. kâru; šittu :D).
This is a kind of "KRK" :D word (its ultimate root *ger is totally Germanic, I think); "sick" on the other hand looks like a kind of "SK" word; the KK (K'K?) word could perhaps correspond to Sum. gig "sick"; sig also means "(to be) weak/low/thin/narrow". Gr. εὕδω heudo, though, means "to sleep" without a notion of ilness or deformity (sometimes reminds me Sum. udi, wr. u3-di "(to be) dazed; sleep" Akk. kâru; šittu :D True :D .
Sum. eš [COLD] wr. eš13 "(to be) cold" Akk. kuşşû "winter('s)" looks also like "ice" from h₁éyH-s-om (< *h₁éyH-s-os ~ *h₁iH-és-os?)root h₁eyH-: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%81eyH- Not sure, but I think we have compared this before. Persian yax (yakh), from this root, is interesting because it reminds also this other root *yeg (yag) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%DB%8C%D8%AE#Persian (I would say also that Ak. kuşşû is the KK' word :D)
Searching the Hittite Dictionary I encountered "harsar" meaning "head", which seems to be something between the *k'er- for "head" etc and the root of Gr. oros "mountain" (*her/har); also reminded me Sum. hursaĝ, wr. hur-saĝ; PA.DUN3 "mountain, foothills; steppe".
I found tonight this interesting paper of Harvard about the name of the god Apollo (Apóllōn): "The etymology of Apollo’s name, Apóllōn, has defied linguistic reconstruction for a long time. [1] A breakthrough came with a 1975 article by Walter Burkert, where he proposes that the Doric form of the name, Apéllōn, be connected with the noun apéllai, designating a seasonally recurring festival—an assembly or thing, in Germanic terms—of Dorian kinship groups. [2] The linguistic principles underlying Burkert’s proposal have been definitively restated in a posthumously published work by Alfred Heubeck, who shows that the earliest recoverable form of the name is *apeli̯ōn, built on a noun shaped *apeli̯a: thus the meaning would be something like ‘he of the assembly’. [3] The point of departure for my presentation is a Cypriote by-form of Apollo's name, Apeílōn (to-i-a-pe-lo-ni = τῶι Ἀπείλωνι), showing the earlier e-vocalism as opposed to the innovative o-vocalism of Apóllōn. [4] {138|139} Following up on a suggestion that I heard viva voce many years ago from Leonard Muellner, I propose to connect the name of Apollo, with recourse to this Cypriote by-form, to the Homeric noun apeilḗ, meaning ‘promise, boastful promise, threat’, and to the corresponding verb, apeiléō ‘make a promise, boastful promise, threat’. [5] Offering arguments in support of this connection, I hope to show that the meaning of these forms apeilḗ and apeiléō is based on the concept of a speech-act, and that this concept dovetails with the meaning of apéllai, based on an actual context of speech-acts. Such dovetailing helps explain the essence of Apollo, ‘he of the *apeli̯a’, as the god of authoritative speech, the one who presides over all manner of speech-acts, including the realms of songmaking in general and poetry in particular." https://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/3383
There is also a god Apaliunas: Apaliunas is the name of a god, attested in a Hittite language treaty as a protective deity of Wilusa. Apaliunas is considered to be the Hittite reflex of *Apeljōn, an early form of the name Apollo, which may also be surmised from comparison of Cypriot Ἀπείλων with Doric Ἀπέλλων.[1] Apaliunas is among the gods who guarantee a treaty drawn up about 1280 BCE between Alaksandu of Wilusa, interpreted as "Alexander of Ilios" and the great Hittite king,[2] Muwatalli II. He is one of the three deities named on the side of the city. In Homer, Apollo is the builder of the walls of Ilium, a god on the Trojan side. A Luwian etymology suggested for Apaliunas makes Apollo "The One of Entrapment", perhaps in the sense of "Hunter".[3] Further east of the Luwian language area, a Hurrian god Aplu was a deity of the plague – bringing it, or, if propitiated, protecting from it – and resembles Apollo Smintheus, "mouse-Apollo"[4] worshiped at Troy and Tenedos, who brought plague upon the Achaeans in answer to a Trojan prayer at the opening of Iliad.[5] Aplu, it is suggested, comes from the Akkadian Aplu Enlil, meaning "the son of Enlil", a title that was given to the god Nergal, who was linked to Shamash, Babylonian god of the Sun,[6][not in citation given] and with the plague. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apaliunas
Gr. ἀπειλέω apeileō "hold out either in the way of promise or threat" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Da)peile%2Fw2
So, the comparison is between apeileō/Apollōn etc and Akkadian aplu (a word of uknown derivation); also these Sumerian words: ibila [HEIR] (133x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian, unknown) wr. ibila; i3-bi2-la; ibila2; i3-bi-lu "heir" Akk. aplu perhaps also to ibilu [UTTERANCE] wr. i-bi-lu "utterance, saying; pronounciation" Akk. hittu; tēltu
So, the comparison is between apeileō/Apollōn etc and Akkadian aplu (a word of uknown derivation); also these Sumerian words: ibila [HEIR] (133x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian, unknown) wr. ibila; i3-bi2-la; ibila2; i3-bi-lu "heir" Akk. aplu perhaps also to ibilu [UTTERANCE] wr. i-bi-lu "utterance, saying; pronounciation" Akk. hittu; tēltu
Hi Nirjhar, There are also other theories about the name of Apollon, see here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%88%CF%80%CF%8C%CE%BB%CE%BB%CF%89%CE%BD#Ancient_Greek The name as "Aploun" (in Thessaly) looks more to Akkadian "aplu" (btw, the etymology of the akkadian words is also unknown). The connection with apeilo (meaning "threat (by shouting etc)" or "promise loudly" or "boasting" etc) seems more promising, I think. There is also a connection (as "Apellon") to Apella, which was the assembly, gathering of the people in ancient Sparta: "The word is derived from the Doric word apella (ἀπέλλα), which originally meant wall, fence for animals and later assembly of people within the limits of the square.[2] The explanation is given by Hesychius: apellai (ἀπέλλαι), sekoi (σηκοί "folds"), ecclesiai (ἐκκλησίαι: popular assemblies).[3][4] The festival apellai was surely dedicated to the god Apollo (Doric form: Ἀπέλλων) and it was spread by the Dorians in central-Greece, as it is proved by the use of the month Apellaios (Ἀπέλλαιος).[5]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apella So, I guess it fots good, since there were people then who summoned the populace for gathering (using threats sometimes); at least, the term Ekklesia (used in other cities, including Athens) has this meaning (from καλέω kaleo); there is also a Sanskrit reflex, look here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kalba#Lithuanian From Proto-Indo-European *kele- (“to shout”), which is imitative; see also Old English hlowan (“to low, make a noise like a cow”), Old High German halan (“to call”), Ancient Greek κλεδον (kledon, “report, fame”), κλήση (klḗsē, “to call”), κέλαδος (kélados, “noise”), Middle Irish cailech (“cock”), Latin calō (“to call out, announce solemnly”), Sanskrit उषःकाल (uṣaḥkāla, “cock, literally dawn-calling”). καλέω kaleo here: From Proto-Indo-European *kl̥h₁-, zero-grade of *kelh₁- + -έω (-éō). Cognates include Old English hlōwan and English low (verb); Latin calō, clāmō, clārus, classis, and concilium; Old Irish cailech; Old Armenian աքաղաղ (akʿałał). I guess apeileo and kaleo have similar meanings; the notion of "Apella" as sekos "fold" fits also good to Apollon, who grazed the cattle, see the story about Apollo's lyre and the god Hermes who has stolen Apollo's cattle here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo Maybe the "heir" in case of Akkadian / Sumerian was proclaimed loudly, or maybe, as a young man, was boasting or something like that; Sum. "banda" meant not only "son", but also "wilde, fierce, proud", if you remember. :)
So, I guess it fots good, since there were people then who summoned the populace for gathering (using threats sometimes); at least, the term Ekklesia (used in other cities, including Athens) has this meaning (from καλέω kaleo); there is also a Sanskrit reflex, look here:
I agree Kyriakos , yes :) .
I guess apeileo and kaleo have similar meanings; the notion of "Apella" as sekos "fold" fits also good to Apollon, who grazed the cattle, see the story about Apollo's lyre and the god Hermes who has stolen Apollo's cattle here:
Yes :) .
Maybe the "heir" in case of Akkadian / Sumerian was proclaimed loudly, or maybe, as a young man, was boasting or something like that; Sum. "banda" meant not only "son", but also "wilde, fierce, proud", if you remember. :)
:D ;) BTW, have you seen this interesting blog about soumd changes theories similar to Speirs' and Djiebel's? "Discussion of Vladimir Diakoff's proposed sound changes" http://indoeuropeanetymology.blogspot.gr/2016/03/discussion-of-vladimir-diakoffs.html
This ibila reminded me of tibira, also ibiza, and in this latter the i- was somehow prothetic; so I thought that maybe it is the same also in "ibila" (and apeilo); so maybe it was (H?)pel- < (H?)kwel(H?) > kelH? apeileo reminds also eileo (<*wel); in fact there is another apeileo "keep away, unroll" (frpm apo + eileo (<wel-) http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Da)peile%2Fw1 Halloran has also a sUM. til4,5,6, tal3,4,5: cry, shout, scream (te; ti, 'to be frightened', + ?).
''This ibila reminded me of tibira, also ibiza, and in this latter the i- was somehow prothetic; so I thought that maybe it is the same also in "ibila" (and apeilo); so maybe it was (H?)pel- < (H?)kwel(H?) > kelH? apeileo reminds also eileo (<*wel); in fact there is another apeileo "keep away, unroll" (frpm apo + eileo (<wel-)''
Certainly in Pokorny's root apeile is a cognate of "spell": (s)pel- "to speak aloud; to tell' .... Material Arm. aṙa-spel `Sage, Sprichwort, Rätsel'; got. spill n. `Erzählung, Sage, Fabel', aisl. spjall n. `Erzählung, Rede', ags. spell n. `Erzählung, Rede, Predigt' (engl. gospel = ags. gōd-spell) `Evangelium'; ahd. spel, -les n. `Erzählung, Rede, Märchen', ahd. mhd. bī-spel `belehrende Erzählung, Fabel, Gleichnis', nhd. Beispiel; davon got. spillōn `verkündigen, erzählen', aisl. spialla `reden, erwähnen', ags. spellian `reden, erzählen' (engl. spell), ahd. got-spellōn `evangelizare', mhd. spellen `erzählen, reden, schwatzen'; damit sind als s-lose Formen vereinbar gr. ἀπειλή `Drohung; prahlerische Versprechung' (ἀπειλέω `drohe; gelobe, verheiße; rühme mich, prahle'), falls aus *ἀπελνι̯α, worin ἀ- am ehesten die Präp. *n̥ `ἐν'; (auch germ. -ll- wohl aus -ln-) lett. pel̂t `schmähen, lästern, verleumden', pal'as (Plur.) `Tadel, Schmähung', iz-pal'uôt `tüchtig ausschmähen', sowie toch. päl-, pāl- `preisen'. So, maybe it is **(s)kwel- / spel- or **(s)kwel- /> Hpel- or > Hkel > Kelh it reminds also *tpel for "city, fortfication"; since "apella" is described also as a kind for fence; also the proposed H like the H in ageiro < *Hger. (I am approaching deliberately again nagara :D )
Another idea could be a comparison of Sum. ibira [MERCHANT] wr. ibira (tibira2); ibira2 "merchant, businessman" Akk. tamkāru with *per "to buy, sell" (Nostratic here): http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=+735&root=config
Maybe also connected to *per "to pass through" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%AD%CF%81%CE%BD%CE%B7%CE%BC%CE%B9 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pars#Latin
which reminds also the Hebrew abar "to cross over" http://studybible.info/strongs/H5674 http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=1641&root=config
connected also to the name "Hebrew": https://www.etymonline.com/word/hebrew :D
So, maybe it is **(s)kwel- / spel- or **(s)kwel- /> Hpel- or > Hkel > Kelh it reminds also *tpel for "city, fortfication"; since "apella" is described also as a kind for fence; also the proposed H like the H in ageiro < *Hger. (I am approaching deliberately again nagara :D )
! :D . Another idea could be a comparison of Sum. ibira [MERCHANT] wr. ibira (tibira2); ibira2 "merchant, businessman" Akk. tamkāru with *per "to buy, sell" (Nostratic here): http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=+735&root=config Plausible! :) . Maybe also connected to *per "to pass through" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%AD%CF%81%CE%BD%CE%B7%CE%BC%CE%B9 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pars#Latin
which reminds also the Hebrew abar "to cross over" http://studybible.info/strongs/H5674 http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=1641&root=config
connected also to the name "Hebrew": https://www.etymonline.com/word/hebrew :D I agree :D .
:D of course you must know that the common greek for prostitute (πόρνη porne) is thought to be from this same root for "selling". ToB does not connect these roots for buying and selling to *per of crossing etc, but with a notion of "gathering" The long-range etymologies of ToB about this root (as PVRV) reminde also the root of "city" (Eurasiatic: *ṗVrV buy, assemble, Afroasiatic : *pVḫVr-"assemble": http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2feura%2fglobet&text_number=+756&root=config *pVḫVr- http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fafaset&text_number=2371&root=config
This Akkadian word exists in Sumerian as puhrum [ASSEMBLY] (19x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. pu-uh2-ru-um; pu-uh3-ru-um; pu-uh2-rum; pu-uh-ru-um; pu-hu-ru-um "assembly" Akk. puhru
That is quite close to pura again (the writing of ibira as the same with "tibira" indicates something like the initial "t" in *tpelH" for p(t)olis, perhaps); also the meaning of puhrum "assembly" is also close to *Hger of ageiro, connected probably to agara/nagara; so one wonders of some ultimate common origin for all these roots (also "agora" in Greek is about buying and selling, also about talking, speeches etc, verb ἀγορεύω (agoreúō) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%B5%CF%8D%CF%89)
That is quite close to pura again (the writing of ibira as the same with "tibira" indicates something like the initial "t" in *tpelH" for p(t)olis, perhaps); also the meaning of puhrum "assembly" is also close to *Hger of ageiro, connected probably to agara/nagara; so one wonders of some ultimate common origin for all these roots (also "agora" in Greek is about buying and selling, also about talking, speeches etc, verb ἀγορεύω (agoreúō) ! :D .
:D At the end this proposed root is a kind of *kwel (kwel/r) for "inhabit" (incolo, inquilinus etc); yet, about the notion of "heir" (in Sumerian "ibila", Akkad. aplu), I made a thought tonight (assuming "ibila" and "ibira" of some ultimate common origin); the assumption is, first, about a possible connection of that semitic *pVḫVr- root "assemble" to this similar root *bVḥVr- root "to choose": Proto-Semitic: *bVḥVr- Afroasiatic etymology: Afroasiatic etymology Meaning: 'choose' Akkadian: bêru, beh_eru Hebrew: bḥr Aramaic: (Palest) bǝhar Epigraphic South Arabian: bḥr http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=1091&root=config
and afterwards, a possibility of another derivation *wel < *kwel (or **(s)H/kwel, as assumed above); this *wel is the root of "will": From Middle English willen, wullen, wollen, from Old English willan, wyllan (“to will, be willing, wish, desire, be used to, to be about to”), from Proto-Germanic *wiljaną (“to desire, wish”), from Proto-Indo-European *wel(h₁)- (“to choose, wish”). or From Middle English wille, from Old English willa (“mind, will, determination, purpose, desire, wish, request, joy, delight, pleasure”) (compare verb willian), from Proto-Germanic *wiljô (“desire, will”), from Proto-Indo-European *welh₁- (“to choose, wish”). this *welH supposingly of some kind of lenition of the **(s)H/kwel root; so this "ibila" could mean "heir" as perhaps the "chosen one". Finally, another word which is thought by some to be connected to "ibila" is Gr. φίλος philos "beloved, friend" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CE%AF%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek maybe is connected to some older hypothetical root meaning perhaps "choose, select, love" **(s)H/kw(h?)el?
Hi Nirjhar, φίλε μου ("my friend") :D There is also a Sumerian word guli [FRIEND] (91x: ED IIIb, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. gu5-li; gu-li; gu7-li "friend, comrade" Akk. ibru (I think we have mentioned it before - or not?) According to CAD ibru (ebru) = "a person of the same status or profession, comrade, fellow, colleague, friend; from OA, OB on ... "the word denotes an institutionalized relationship between free persons of the same status or profession which entailed acceptance of the same code of behavior and an obligation of mutual assistance." ibrutu (ebrutu, ebarutu) = "relationship between persons of the same status or profession. 2. alliance 3. collegium (nam.ku.li = ibrutu). http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=25&language=id Also kulili [COLLEAGUE] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. ku-li-li "colleague" Akk. itbaru. Maybe this gul- or kul- is from this **kwel / **gwel- like root :D Also, the word for "Hebrew" is "ibritu" http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=3762&language=id there is also Akkad. "ubāru [U.BAR] : a foreign resident / guest , an immigrant , a visitor ; note : this word sounds like "Hebrew". http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=ub%C4%81ru&language=rawakkadian
Hi Nirjhar, The labio-velar is found also in the root of Gr. ἐθέλω (ethélō) or θέλω (thélō) "I am willing, I wish; I want" etc From Proto-Indo-European *h₁gʷʰel-. Cognates include Old Church Slavonic желѣти (želěti). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%90%CE%B8%CE%AD%CE%BB%CF%89 http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3De)qe%2Flw I think it seems almost the same root with the assumed one above. :) Hesychius has also a word in phal-, most probably from the same root: φαλίζει: θέλει [phalizei = thelei = "he/she is willing"] (gʷʰ > th- / gʷʰ > ph-) http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*f%3Aentry+group%3D4%3Aentry%3Dfali%2Fzei
This phal- reminded me of Skrt. phala "fruit, gain, product, profit, reward, consquence, blade" etc: http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=phala&direct=au Mayrhofer has is root as *pʰal/pʰar; mentioning also Sieb's Law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siebs%27_law he states that it could be from *spʰel < *s-bʰel (like in folium, phyllon, blossom etc) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CF%8D%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%BD
the relation beteween som s mobil and a possible initial laryngeal is not clear to me, but Skrt. phala reminds me of a Gr. word ὀφείλω (opheílō) "I owe" etc From Proto-Indo-European *h₃bʰel- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%80%CF%86%CE%B5%CE%AF%CE%BB%CF%89 Also, there is ὀφέλλω (ophéllō) "to increase, enlarge, elevate, strengthen" Probably related to ὄφελος (óphelos, “advantage”), ὀφείλω (opheílō, “owe”);or From Proto-Indo-European *bhelyō. Cognates include Armenian աւել (awel). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%80%CF%86%CE%AD%CE%BB%CE%BB%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
It must be some root about increasing; maybe also connected to the previous root(s) about gathering, assembling, summoning, willing, purchasing / selling, profit etc also the notions about kinship, friendship etc; I'm not sure if all these notions can be connected though.
Skrt. phala reminds me of a Gr. word ὀφείλω (opheílō) "I owe" etc From Proto-Indo-European *h₃bʰel- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%80%CF%86%CE%B5%CE%AF%CE%BB%CF%89 Also, there is ὀφέλλω (ophéllō) "to increase, enlarge, elevate, strengthen" Probably related to ὄφελος (óphelos, “advantage”), ὀφείλω (opheílō, “owe”);or From Proto-Indo-European *bhelyō. Cognates include Armenian աւել (awel). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%80%CF%86%CE%AD%CE%BB%CE%BB%CF%89#Ancient_Greek .
Yes, I agree with you :) .
It must be some root about increasing; maybe also connected to the previous root(s) about gathering, assembling, summoning, willing, purchasing / selling, profit etc also the notions about kinship, friendship etc; I'm not sure if all these notions can be connected though.
About Gr. ὀφείλω (opheílō, “owe”), there is an Akkadian word which seems also close: ḫabālu (3) "1) to be in debt ; 2) to get into debt , to borrow from" http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=%E1%B8%ABab%C4%81lu+%283%29&language=rawakkadian
There is also another Akkadian word ḫabālu: ḫabālu (1) 1) MB,NA : an act of violence , wrong-doing / a misdeed ; 2) NA : feminine plural : wrongs , injustices , misdeeds ; http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=10115&language=id ḫabālu (2) (vb. i/i, OB a/u) G. to treat injustly, to use violence D = G http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=1067&language=id about "wrongdoing" etc; acoording to CAD is probably connected to the one about "owe, debt"; this other ḫabālu reminds me a Gr. verb (with an s initial) σφᾰ́λλω (sphállō) "to topple, overthrow; to kill; to baffle" From Proto-Indo-European *(s)gʷʰh₂el-.[1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%86%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%BB%CF%89 (similar - or even same- root here, too).
ḫabālu "to wrong" here: http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=4222&language=id in Sumerian these are translated as nam-gu "opression" (nam + gu = "neck" or "force") or dulum "misery, toil"; there is also Sum. gul [DESTROY] (518x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. gul; gu-ul "to destroy; to break; to flatten; to carve, cut; to engrave" Akk. abātu; hepû; naqāru; sapānu; (we have talked about it before; btw it looks also like guli "friend"). The closest IE root for "destroy" in this case I think is *h₁elh₃-[1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%83elh%E2%82%81- Gr. apollymi was also connected with Appolon, as a god-destroyer; certainly all these the roots look close, for some reason. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CF%80%CF%8C%CE%BB%CE%BB%CF%85%CE%BC%CE%B9#Ancient_Greek Latin aboleo (ab + oleo) is also interesting, because oleo means also "increase" etc https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/aboleo#Latin https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oleo#Latin root h₂el- (imperfective) "to grow, nourish" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82el- (reminding Gr. ophello for "increasing" etc)
The notion about "growing" reminds also (especially in its writing as gu-ul or ku-ul) Sum. gal, wr. gal; gu-la; gu-ul; gal-gal; ku-ul "(to be) big, great; (to be) retired, former; (to be) mature (of male animals)" I am wondering though, why this similarity... I remembered also *h₁lewdʰ- "to grow" of Lat. liber etc (though the laryngeal here is H1 instead of H2 or H3 :D )...
The notion about "growing" reminds also (especially in its writing as gu-ul or ku-ul) Sum. gal, wr. gal; gu-la; gu-ul; gal-gal; ku-ul "(to be) big, great; (to be) retired, former; (to be) mature (of male animals)"
Yes :) .
I am wondering though, why this similarity... I remembered also *h₁lewdʰ- "to grow" of Lat. liber etc (though the laryngeal here is H1 instead of H2 or H3 :D )...
Today's comparison / assumption is about "priesthood", "prophecy" etc:
Sum. gudug [PRIEST] (829x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian, unknown) wr. gudug; gudux(|HI×NUN|) "a priest" Akk. pašīšu. At Foxvog's Glossary gudu4(g) (an ordinary kind of priest, conventionally translated lustration or purification priest) (the older rdg. gúda is still seen) (pašīšu)
The comparison is to words like Gr. κῦδος (kûdos) "renown", Skrt. kavi "poet, sage, prophet", Sl. cud "miracle" etc: From Proto-Indo-European *(s)kewh₁- (“to perceive, pay attention”). Cognate with κοέω (koéō), Latin caveō, Sanskrit कवि (kaví, “wise, poet, seer, sage”), Lithuanian kavoti (“safeguard, tend”), Old Armenian ցուցանեմ (cʿucʿanem, “I show”), Polish cześć (“glory”) and cud (“miracle”) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%E1%BF%A6%CE%B4%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
In Greek, from the same root there are words like κοιόλης koioles "priest" (at Hesychius"); http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkoio%2Flhs
Also κοίης koies or κόης koes "priest in the mysteries of Samothrace" (At Hesychius, who also has κοιᾶται: ἱερᾶται koiatai = hieratai ("he is a priest"), κοιώσατο: ἀφιερώσατο, καθιερώσατο ["koiosato = aphierosato, kathierosato" "he is consacrated / dedicated"] http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*k%3Aentry+group%3D135%3Aentry%3D*koi%2Fhs
With an initial "s" there is also in Gr. θυοσκόος thyoskoos "sacrificing priest" (thyo-skoos; θύω thyo means "to sacrifice") http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dquosko%2Fos
Also Κοῖος Koios (Coeus in Latin) in Greek mythology is the Titan of intelligence, prophecy and farsight, of oracles etc: https://www.greek-gods.org/titans/coeus.php
:D yes, I thought also about that :) certainly the Akkadian equivalent pašīšu has to do with massih etc (Messiah) "annointment", the "cleansed one", look also here: https://books.google.gr/books?id=JEeRAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=gudu+priest+anoint&source=bl&ots=H6dwKmdFn2&sig=XfFvWrZPdMKgnLqMaFPMlQJfe68&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjQuM6q5KTYAhXKIpoKHYMUAeEQ6AEIMTAC#v=onepage&q=gudu%20priest%20anoint&f=false "anointment" has to do with kings and priests, so here is about priests; if gudu(g) though is etymologically connected with that notion of anointment is not clear ("not clear etymology"); at the beginning I thought about Gr. kotharos "clean" (we were talked about it about Sum. gub for "clean" I think); but then I decided to give this suggestion, which seems to be closer to priesthood. :) It is true though that it is written as HIxNUN (= gudux) or HIxNUN.ME = gudug (HIxNUN is used as umun3/amun "insect", eh = "insect", ah "spittle, poison etc (preceded by the sign "a" for water)", also "uh / ah" "turtle"; also me, wr. me = "Being, divine properties enabling cosmic activity; office; (cultic) ordinance" Akk. mû; parşu.
"anointment" has to do with kings and priests, so here is about priests; if gudu(g) though is etymologically connected with that notion of anointment is not clear ("not clear etymology"); at the beginning I thought about Gr. kotharos "clean" (we were talked about it about Sum. gub for "clean" I think); but then I decided to give this suggestion, which seems to be closer to priesthood. :)
Yes, I agree .
It is true though that it is written as HIxNUN (= gudux) or HIxNUN.ME = gudug (HIxNUN is used as umun3/amun "insect", eh = "insect", ah "spittle, poison etc (preceded by the sign "a" for water)", also "uh / ah" "turtle"; also me, wr. me = "Being, divine properties enabling cosmic activity; office; (cultic) ordinance" Akk. mû; parşu.
Another possible comparison is the one between Sum. gudu(g) with Hebrew qodesh "apartness, sacredness" http://biblehub.com/hebrew/6944.htm also with other Semitic types: Q-D-Š is a triconsonantal Semitic root meaning "sacred, holy", derived from a concept central to ancient Semitic religion. From a basic verbal meaning "to consecrate, to purify", it could be used as an adjective meaning "holy", or as a substantive referring to a "sanctuary, sacred object, sacred personnel."[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q-D-%C5%A0
Bernal also has compared Gr. kudos with Hebr. kodesh etc: https://books.google.gr/books?id=BcZuf-piTMwC&pg=PA142&lpg=PA142&dq=quds+etymology&source=bl&ots=Uy8-iK3mx1&sig=dT0eEk-2fD-3YtBf1x9pLV_N3iE&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjOvoji_aXYAhVIDJoKHfreBkcQ6AEIczAI#v=onepage&q=quds%20etymology&f=false
I think that the Semitic and the IE root perhaps could be connected, maybe through a notion of "apartness, pay attention (to something apart), also for priests, soothsayers etc. One can notice also that gudu(g) is a kind of KT(K) root :D with an initial s also looks close to sukud(r), (also with du- perhaps like dugud) etc .... Frisk mentions in his etymology about kudos, more precisely about κυδρός kudros "famous", one "risky / bold hypothesis [ eine "gewagte Vermutung"] of Wackernagel to iranian Σύδροι Sudroi, a people of Arachosia(literally *"the famous ones"), also to śūdrá- ‘members 0f the 4th cast’.
I think that the Semitic and the IE root perhaps could be connected, maybe through a notion of "apartness, pay attention (to something apart), also for priests, soothsayers etc. One can notice also that gudu(g) is a kind of KT(K) root :D with an initial s also looks close to sukud(r), (also with du- perhaps like dugud) etc ....
Yes :) .
Frisk mentions in his etymology about kudos, more precisely about κυδρός kudros "famous", one "risky / bold hypothesis [ eine "gewagte Vermutung"] of Wackernagel to iranian Σύδροι Sudroi, a people of Arachosia(literally *"the famous ones"), also to śūdrá- ‘members 0f the 4th cast’.
I also consider this a valid suggestion Kyriakos ! :) .
I share also the same opinion, Nirjhar :) Maybe it is connected also to a notion of "guard", "take care" or "setting apart"; there is a Gr. word κοῖον or κώϊον (koion) (from *κόϝ-ιον kow-ion) "pledge", a cognate of Latin caveo (= "I beware, avoid, take care; I am aware of; guard against, prevent; (law) I take care for, order, decree, stipulate; (with ab) I procure bail or surety from; I make someone secure by bail or surety; pledge") https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/caveo sukud(r) on the other hand is about a notion of "highness" (Halloran has also "depth") and this writing HI.NUN of gudu(g) is from HI = "mixed up" and NUN = "noble, prince" (Halloran has also "rise up"); the combination, as a sign (umun3), means "insect, louse, flea", maybe because of a meaning of a multitude of creatures on one's head (top, high); it is supposed that this sign for insect, combined with "me" ("me" could mean also "wash") means "cleansed from louse"; yet, maybe, in the case of priests, it could mean just a high rank or position, I think (which fits well for priests etc).
maybe because of a meaning of a multitude of creatures on one's head (top, high); it is supposed that this sign for insect, combined with "me" ("me" could mean also "wash") means "cleansed from louse"; yet, maybe, in the case of priests, it could mean just a high rank or position, I think (which fits well for priests etc).
Frisk in the lemma about koion "pledge" mentions also a comparison of Bochart (Lewy Fremdw. 258) with Hebrew kōhēn "priest"; so one wonders, if the root was (s)kew(h?)-[d(r)-os] or alternatively (s)kew(h?)-[n]-os] ToB thinks of an etymological connectio with the root of "know" http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=2636&root=config http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2feura%2fglobet&text_number=+139&root=config
Frisk mentions also a Macedonian word κοι̃ος = ἀριθμός koios = arithmos "number" (Ath. 10, 455e; maked.; eig. "Kenner" ("the one that knows"). http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2358462&redirect=true "(Athenaeus[47] when talking about Koios, the Titan of intelligence; and the Macedonians use koios as synonymous with arithmos (LSJ: koeô mark, perceive, hear koiazô pledge, Hes. compose s.v. κοίασον, σύνθες)"
Sorry, the last one from here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language or maybe we should put this "root" together as **(s)ke(uh?)-[(n)d-[r-os] as a kind of TK/KT and ken type roots (probably not) :D yet, there is also a word κοία = σφαῖρα koia = sphaira "sphere" (reminding of kanduka): http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkoi%2Fa
or maybe we should put this "root" together as **(s)ke(uh?)-[(n)d-[r-os] as a kind of TK/KT and ken type roots (probably not) :D yet, there is also a word κοία = σφαῖρα koia = sphaira "sphere" (reminding of kanduka):
:D why not indeed... "knowledge" implies some secrecy, some attention, some keeping (not to say about hearing and showing); at least in case of *ken (for kanda, kanduka etc) we have also a possible derivation (as Starostin has suggested) from *gen ('to pinch, press together, etc.'); we have discussed about this ken-/kan-d, gen-/gan-d equation before. :)
"knowledge" implies some secrecy, some attention, some keeping (not to say about hearing and showing); at least in case of *ken (for kanda, kanduka etc) we have also a possible derivation (as Starostin has suggested) from *gen ('to pinch, press together, etc.'); we have discussed about this ken-/kan-d, gen-/gan-d equation before. :)
Yup! :) .
for koia "sphere" perhaps there is also *keu- "to bend"
It's also interesting that Latin nobilis "noble, high-born; distinct, famous, celebrated" is from the root of "know"; from Latin nosco "I know, recognize, am acquainted with, i.e.; in possession of knowledge" From earlier gnōscō, from Proto-Italic *gnōskō, from Proto-Indo-European *ǵn̥h₃sḱéti. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nosco#Latin https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nobilis#Latin https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/%C7%B5neh%E2%82%83-
So, about the writing of gudu(g) as HI.NUN maybe it could be related to *ǵneh₃[-un?] > Hnewn? (H < ǵ from a kind of lenition?) :D
:D ;) This HI.NUN gave me another idea for the crazy suggestion of tonight: it's about Sum. henun [PLENTY] (22x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. he-nun; he2-nun "plenty"; I think there is a similarity to this IE root: *gʷʰen- (“to flourish, be full, swell, abound”); maybe because of a similar lenition; or rather maybe of a "h" spelling as "kh/hh < gʷʰ]
*gʷhen-1 "to swell, abound Derivatives gʷhono-s `üppig, reichlich' ['oppulent, abundant'] Material Ai. ā-haná- `schwellend, strotzend, üppig' [swelling, full of, oppulent'], ghaná- `dicht, dick' ['dense, thick'], m. `kompakte Masse' [compact mass]; npers. ā-gandan `anfüllen', āganiš `voll' ['full']; arm. yogn `multum' (Prap. i + *o-gʷhon- oder *o-gʷhno-, im Präfix o- dem ar. ā-nächststehend); gr. εὐθενής [eu-thenes] `reichlich, in Fülle' ['abundant, in full', Hes. εὐθενέω eu-theneo `gedeihe' [to prosper, thrive], εὐθένεια `Fülle, blühender Zustand' [abundance, profusion], dehnstufig ion. εὐθηνής eu-theenes` reichlich, in Fülle' [ample, in full], ion. att. εὐθηνέω eu-theeneo` gedeihe, bin in Blüte und Kraft' [to prosper, to thrive], εὐθηνία f. `Fülle' f ; o-stufig Πολυφόντης = Πολυκτήτης [Polyphontes = Polyktetes], Κλεοφόντης, usw., red.-stufig φανᾆν · θέλειν Hes. [phanan = thelein 'to want'], wohl eigentlich `geil sein' [in the reality = 'to be lecherous / lascivious']; lit. ganà `genug' ['enough'], ganė́ti `genügen' [to be enough, sufficient], gandė́ti `genug haben' ['to have enough'], lett. gana `genug' ['enough']; aksl. gonějetъ, goněti `genügen', Denomin. von *gona = lit. ganà; ob hierher gr. ἄφενος [aphenos], ἄφνος n. [aphnos] `reichlicher Vorrat, Reichtum' ["wealth], ἀφνειός `begütert' [aphneios "rich"] (φ und der Vokalvorschlag aus der vokallosen Form (α)φν- oder *sm̥-gʷh(e)n-?), auch παρ-θένος `Jungfrau' (leibliche Fülle?)?
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0752
Also, in ToB: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=++1757&root=config
Skr. ghana here: http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=ghana&direct=au Also Αhanas- here: http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=ahanas&direct=au
(This *gʷʰen- looks like the other *gʷʰen- for "killing"; also Myrhofer is not very much optimistic about the comparisons of this root.)
Sum. henun [PLENTY] (22x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. he-nun; he2-nun "plenty"; I think there is a similarity to this IE root: *gʷʰen- (“to flourish, be full, swell, abound”); maybe because of a similar lenition; or rather maybe of a "h" spelling as "kh/hh < gʷʰ]
Very good! :) .
(This *gʷʰen- looks like the other *gʷʰen- for "killing"; also Myrhofer is not very much optimistic about the comparisons of this root.)
If you noticed, Hesychius, apart from a phal- we already have mentioned, has also a phan- (from this root *gʷʰen-) for "I want" θέλω thelo (or ethelo): http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dfana%2Fw
There is also (at "h" letter") a hibira [SON] wr. hibira "son" Akk. māru; also hibiz [HEIR] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. hibiz2 "heir" Akk. aplu (this latter seems definately like "ibiza", so I think the probability of a "thorn cluster" there is high...)
If you noticed, Hesychius, apart from a phal- we already have mentioned, has also a phan- (from this root *gʷʰen-) for "I want" θέλω thelo (or ethelo):
Yes .
There is also (at "h" letter") a hibira [SON] wr. hibira "son" Akk. māru; also hibiz [HEIR] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. hibiz2 "heir" Akk. aplu (this latter seems definately like "ibiza", so I think the probability of a "thorn cluster" there is high...)
I was thinking that, since phthisis / psisis "loss, destruction" (which I have compared to Sum. ibiza "loss" etc) is from *dgʷhey- http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=1607&root=config which seems to be related to gʷʰen- "strike, kill" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/g%CA%B7%CA%B0en- (for example φθίσις phthisis looks like φόνος phonos "murder" in Greek - and θείνω theino "to strike") https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CF%8C%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek Then it is possible that the other gʷʰen- for "swelling, flourishing" etc to have "its own" TK thorn cluster, like *dgʷhey- or a similar **dgʷh-, so we could have also ibiz for "heir" with some meaning of abundance, swell, prosper, blossoming etc.
Then it is possible that the other gʷʰen- for "swelling, flourishing" etc to have "its own" TK thorn cluster, like *dgʷhey- or a similar **dgʷh-, so we could have also ibiz for "heir" with some meaning of abundance, swell, prosper, blossoming etc.
I meant Sum. "hibiz". Also Skrt. phal- (when we talked about ibila etc) was about blossoming etc. Also the world "swell-" is of unknown origin: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/swellan%C4%85 In Greek also a word which looks like φόνος phonos is φθόνος phthonos "envy, jealousy, malice, grudge, ill will", of the some root *dgʷhey of destruction (here "inner" destruction; though wikipedia says "of unknown etymology": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CE%B8%CF%8C%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%82 since a word ἄφθονος aphthonos (a-phthonos) means "without envy: I.act. free from envy,2.ungrudging, bounteous, Lat. benignus, II.pass. not grudged, bounteously given, plentiful, abundant" etc http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Da)%2Ffqonos
About Sum. henun, I think that a Hebrew word looks comparable: hon "wealth, sufficiency", "cheaply* (1), enough (2), possession (1), riches (4), substance (1), wealth (17)." http://biblehub.com/hebrew/1952.htm Yet I haven't found anything about the Nostratic comparisons of both Hebr. "hon" or *gʷʰen :/
This of course reminds Sanskrit ''dhana n. the prize of a contest or the contest itself (lit. a running match , race , or the thing raced for ; %{hita4M} %{dhA7nam} , a proposed prize or contest ; %{dhanaM-ji} , to win the pñprize or the fight) RV. ; booty , prey (%{dhanam-bhR} A1. , to carry off the prize or booty) RV. AV. ; any valued object , (esp.) wealth , riches , (movable) property , money , treasure , gift RV. &c. &c. ; capital (opp. to %{vRddhi} interest) Ya1jn5. ii , 58 ; = %{go-dhana} Hariv. 3886 ; (arithm.) the affirmative quantity or plus (opp. to %{RNa} , %{kSaya} , %{vyaya} , %{hAni}) ; N. of the 2nd mansion Var. ; m. N. of a merchant HParis3. Sin6ha7s.'' http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=dhana&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
Very interesting! ;) Do you think that dhana is from *dhē- as ToB states? http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=1916&root=config
In Gr. εὐθηνέω eu-thēneō "to thrive, flourish, prosper". which Pokorny says it is also from *gʷʰen, has a long ē like in *dhē: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Deu)qhne%2Fw but it would be interesting if there was a *gʷʰe-n > dhen- derivation of roots!
"hon" means also "capital" in Hebrew: http://context.reverso.net/translation/hebrew-english/%D7%94%D7%95%D7%9F
Also a thorn cluster about "set, put" could be *tk'ey (for dwelling etc): http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=1604&root=config
Of course the long "e" is in *tk(')ēy- (to possess, to acquire) http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=1605&root=config
(we return again to the same things, I'm afraid...:D )
Meanwhile, Gr. ἄφενος "revenue, riches, wealth, abundance" is from the same root *gʷʰen according to Pokorny (with a prothetic a-); others, though, think of a derivation from the root of Latin op- (< *h₃ep-)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%83ep- Here we have Skrt. apnas: http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=apnas&direct=au fitting well to aphenos (there is also ἄφνειος aphneios "rich, wealthy" etc) The problem here is the ph < gwh-, while the p of apnas is ...well, just p (not ph-). :D
I think that, if your suggestion about dh < gwh- is right, then, at the case of the comparison of Gr. theos (from dʰéh₁s) to Sum teš "pride", Akk. "bāštu", being also supposingly connected to "festus", from the same root), this "festus" could be rather directly from gwh- (like for example "furnus" is from *gwher-) than from a dh- (Giacomo would kill us :D ) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/festus#Latin
I think that, if your suggestion about dh < gwh- is right, then, at the case of the comparison of Gr. theos (from dʰéh₁s) to Sum teš "pride", Akk. "bāštu", being also supposingly connected to "festus", from the same root), this "festus" could be rather directly from gwh- (like for example "furnus" is from *gwher-) than from a dh-
Obviously, the best candidate for a **dhen < *gʷʰen- (“to kill”) is θνῄσκω (thnḗiskō) - [same root with θάνατος thanatos "death"] "I die; (aorist and perfect) I am dead (serves as passive of κτείνω (kteínō, “kill”) to be killed"
Traditionally compared to Sanskrit अध्वनीत् (á-dhvanī-t, “he disappeared”), ध्वान्त (dhvān-tá-, “dark”), from Proto-Indo-European *dʰwenh₂- (“to die”). However, Beekes doubts this, on the basis of the zero-grade forms, which would then be *θυνεῖν, *θύνατος. LIV² reconstructs Proto-Indo-European *dʰn̥h₂-sḱé-, from Proto-Indo-European *dʰenh₂- (“to set oneself in motion, to take off”), comparing the word with Sanskrit धन्वति (dhánvati, “to flow”), Tocharian A tsnāntär (“to flow”), but the semantic connection is weak. Others refer to Proto-Indo-European *gʷʰn̥h₂-, from Proto-Indo-European *gʷʰen- (“to kill”), from which come θείνω (theínō, “slay”), φόνος (phónos, “murder”), and φᾰτός (phatós, “slain”). In any case, the second part is the inchoative suffix -σκω (-skō).
Another candidate is bʰeh₂- "shine, glow", also bʰeh₂ "speak, say" (from some **gʷʰ- >, like Sum. gu "voice, cry, noise" - there is also teš "voice"; also gunu "multicoloured, speckled" etc) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/b%CA%B0eh%E2%82%82-
About Sum hibira "son" today I was thinking about Gr. ἔφηβος (éphēbos) "adolescent" < epi + ephebos > from ἥβη (hḗbē) "youth; vigour; pubes"; from Proto-Indo-European *yēgʷa- (“power, (youthful) strength”). Cognate with Latvian jēga.[1] [with gʷ> b, and a -ro ending]; not sure about that though; maybe it is derived from the other roots we were talking about. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%A5%CE%B2%CE%B7#Ancient_Greek
hibza [~BREAD] (4x: Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. hi-ib-za; hi-ib-sa2 "a designation of breads" Akk. hibşu, must be also about "swelling" (like *gʷhen-1 ); since hibşu means "blister, bump"; also "a type of leavened bread / pastry: http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=7185&language=id
About a possible TK, Pokorny has a tegu "thick" (only celtic and German) Air. tiug, cymr. corn. tew, bret. teo `dick'; aisl. þykkr, þjokkr, þjukkr `dick', ags. ðicce `dick, dicht', ahd. dicchi ds., as. thikki `ds., häufig'. Of course there is also *tek for "bearing a child" (like Gr. teknon "child", also *k'eu "swell" (used also, like in Gr. κυέω kueo, for "bear a child") etc etc... Maybe there are also other roots...
It's funny that in Greek the common word for "bread" is ψωμί (psomi): From Byzantine Greek ψωμίν (psōmín), from ψωμίον (psōmíon), from Ancient Greek ψωμός (psōmós), from the verb ψώω (psṓō), an alternative form of ψάω (psáō, “to touch lightly, to rub”). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%88%CF%89%CE%BC%CE%AF I don't think is from "swelling" though, but (probably) from a verb ψώω meaning "to rub" etc https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%88%CE%AC%CF%89#Ancient_Greek It has been compared to Skrt. psAti "swallow, eat, consume, devour etc" http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=psati&direct=se
About Sum. hi [MIX] (2735x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian, unknown) wr. hi "to mix (up); process (skin; wool, in the latter possibly a stage between combing and spinning); alloy" Akk. balālu I though about a possible comparison with *ǵʰew- "to pour"
Though it could be better if compared with some "hu" or "gu", I think, instead of "hi"... Also the meaning "to pour" is not exactly "to mix"; though I think it could be close. English "gut" from this root: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gut#English
Though it could be better if compared with some "hu" or "gu", I think, instead of "hi"... Also the meaning "to pour" is not exactly "to mix"; though I think it could be close. English "gut" from this root:
Again about Sum. haš [THIGH] (20x: Old Babylonian) wr. haš2; haš4 "lower body, abdomen; thigh" Akk. emšu [or enšu]; šapru; we have discussed about it at Giacomo's "multifarious connection" Sumerian post (enšu here) http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=373&language=id I thought it could be compared to words like Gr. hystera or gaster about "womb". I think now that maybe there is also a connection to Hittite hāš-, hašš- ‘to give birth (to), to beget, to procreate’. Maybe the notion is about something "round" (belly, thigh etc). I think there is also a similarity (especially concerning the Akkadian word) with the root of "shoulder" *h₃ém-s-o-s (I guess something round again): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%83%C3%A9m%C5%8Ds
Nirjhar, I'm sure you'll be interested in this: असुर • (ásura) m "spirit, good spirit, supreme spirit (said of Varuna); the chief of the evil spirits; an evil spirit, demon, ghost, opponent of the gods; name of Rāhu; the sun; cloud; (in the plural) name of a warrior-tribe; name of a Vedic school; zodiacal sign Etymology[edit] From Proto-Indo-Iranian *ásuras.
Related to असु (asu-), with several possible etymologies and meanings. In the context of asura conventionally associated with asu- in the sense of "master of the house". This meaning is not further narrowed by its etymology: cf. Avestan (ahu, “lord”) and (ahura, “lord”), Hittite 𒈗 (ḥaššū, “king”), and Latin erus (“lord”). Possibly ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *h₂ems- (“to engender, beget”). Compare Old Norse æsir.
The Brahmanas and the Puranas derive asura from another asu-, "breath", a cognate of which is found in Av. ahu1-, "life, existence". In yet other post-Vedic Sanskrit literature, asura was back-formed as a-sura, "non-sura", with sura then associated with a group of demi-gods who inhabit Indra's domain.
The scholars have remarked also that ḥaššū, “king" in Hittite is connected to Hit. hāš-, hašš- ‘to give birth (to), to beget, to procreate’, just like the word "king" in English is connected with "kin" and ultimately with *ǵenh₁- "to beget, to procreate etc": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/king https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kin#English But I am wondering if there is a connection between these two roots *ǵenh₁- and *h₂ems-.
:D These are my assumptions for today, Nirjhar: I was thinking about *teḱ "to beget" (like in "teknon" child) as the TK form; then a -/-KN/ or /-/-GN for *ǵenh and then ḥašš < H-n(or m)/s (/tḱey- is also connected) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/te%E1%B8%B1-https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/t%E1%B8%B1ey- *Hes- (as a kind of HS < HK') for "to be" could be perhaps connected to the same root *He-m-s-. The meaning could be initially something like "swelling, grow" (like bʰuh₂- "to become, grow, appear") https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/b%CA%B0uH-
BTW, Whittaker has already connected this root *h₂ems- with Sum. henzir ‘infant, baby; (low social class)’ : *h2Ns-i-s < *h2Ms-i-s ‘offspring’ (cf. Luw. hamsa/i- ‘grandchild’ < *h2Ms-ó-s; Kloekhorst 2008: 323-324).[In ePSD: henzer [CHILD] (7x: Old Babylonian) wr. henzer "a low social class; small child; baby; (to be) babyish; weak" Akk. ašpaltu; la'û; lakû; šerru] About the similar word for "shoulder" (*h₃ém-s-o-s), I think it could be connected to some "ken" root (meaning both round an sharp), like the one for knee (gonu), also to the hek (HK) for "sharp", the tig - TK "sharp" etc, maybe... Also about haš [STONE] wr. [na4]haš2 "a stone", I noticed a Persian word آس (ās, “grinding stone”), from Hek' (like in English "edge" and German "Ecke"). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/edge#English
2,273 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 1201 – 1400 of 2273 Newer› Newest»''As from K'rK' ; Sum. "sug" means also "marsh". ''
Yes! :D .
The K'r- part of the **K'rK' (> for saras), if nasalized (like in Sumerian ĝ), given also the ĝ = m (Emesal)equation, could give also the *mar- (for mare "sea" etc).
From a meaning of "stretching" probably; like in Sumerian ĝar/mar ("to place", like μάρη mare = "hand" in Greek).
The K'r- part of the **K'rK' (> for saras), if nasalized (like in Sumerian ĝ), given also the ĝ = m (Emesal)equation, could give also the *mar- (for mare "sea" etc).
Yes, I also think that Kyriakos :) .
From a meaning of "stretching" probably; like in Sumerian ĝar/mar ("to place", like μάρη mare = "hand" in Greek).
Nice :) .
"sea" must be from the "sig" word in this case:
From Middle English see, from Old English sǣ (“sea, lake”), from Proto-Germanic *saiwiz (compare West Frisian see, Dutch zee, German See, Norwegian sjø, Swedish sjö), probably either from Proto-Indo-European *sh₂ey-u̯o- 'to be fierce, afflict' (compare Latin saevus (“wild, fierce”), Tocharian saiwe (“itch”), Latvian sievs, sīvs (“sharp, biting”); more at sore)[1] or derived from *sīhwaną (“to percolate, filter”), in which case *saiwiz is from earlier *saigwiz, Pre-Germanic *soykʷís.[2]
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sea
Yes, true :) .
Who knows why only Greek has (from the **K'rK') a TrK/TrS word for "sea" (dalankha/thalassa)...
In case of a **K'rK' for "head", there is the *kar-/sar- K'r, maybe from the same "root" :D the Sum, saĝ (<S(r)K (the second k nasalized); also there could be a connection to the semitic raʾš- "head" (from the -rS < -rK' of K'rK'), perhaps.
ĝuruš "young adult male; able-bodied male worker" follows also the **K'rK' pattern, I believe; maybe with kouros/koure, marya/meirax; also parikeh/pallake etc :D
''In case of a **K'rK' for "head", there is the *kar-/sar- K'r, maybe from the same "root" :D the Sum, saĝ (<S(r)K (the second k nasalized); also there could be a connection to the semitic raʾš- "head" (from the -rS < -rK' of K'rK'), perhaps.''
:D .
''ĝuruš "young adult male; able-bodied male worker" follows also the **K'rK' pattern, I believe; maybe with kouros/koure, marya/meirax; also parikeh/pallake etc :D ''
Yes! :) .
About sag etc, I remembered now the other word zid "right; to be right, true, loyal", which had reminded me, if you remember, satya and Gr. eteos; now I am thinking also of another Gr. word ἐσθλός esthlos (or ἐσλός eslos; it looks to be of the same root): "good (of a person), good at fighting, soldierly, warlike, brave; worthy, serviceable, skilled, morally good, faithful, showing good judgement (of things or abstractions); good, excellent, fine, helpful, useful."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%90%CF%83%CE%B8%CE%BB%CF%8C%CF%82
Yes, beautiful .
In most of the qualities of ἐσθλός esthlos, the contrary term is κακός kakos (except of its notion "ugly", which as contrary has καλός kalos "beautiful, handsome"
κακός kakos ="As a measure of quality: bad, worthless, useless; As a measure of appearance: ugly, hideous; Of circumstances: injurious, wretched, unhappy; As a measure of character: low, mean, vile, evil
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%BA%CF%8C%CF%82
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%BB%CF%8C%CF%82
do you think that κακός kakos could be compared to dasa (somehow)?
Maybe connecyed to dus- (dur-) etc, something like from a possible < **g'wak'/**k'wak'- perhaps? :D
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/dus-
Mayrhofer at the lemma about 'dusa' mentions the Mycenaean 'do-e-ro', an ominous word, which is thought to be connected to classical doulos "servant, sclave"; while others say it could mean "Dorian".
I meant about the lemma "dasa" ; but I was influenced in this suggestion by Sum. dusa 'friend, companion' < PIE *g'aus- (as it is in Giacomo's list).
do you think that κακός kakos could be compared to dasa (somehow)?.
Interesting .
something like from a possible < **g'wak'/**k'wak'- perhaps? :D
Yes I also think this :D .
Mayrhofer at the lemma about 'dusa' mentions the Mycenaean 'do-e-ro', an ominous word, which is thought to be connected to classical doulos "servant, sclave"; while others say it could mean "Dorian". .
I see .
I meant about the lemma "dasa" ; but I was influenced in this suggestion by Sum. dusa 'friend, companion' < PIE *g'aus- (as it is in Giacomo's list).
I understand :) .
Hi Nirjhar,
Do you think that Sum. galam [STAIRCASE] wr. [ĝeš]galam "staircase, ladder" Akk. simmiltu
could be compared to Gr. κλῖμᾰξ (klîmax) f "ladder, staircase" etc? From κλῑ́νω (klī́nō, “I bend, lean”) > From Proto-Indo-European *ḱley-. Cognates include Sanskrit श्रयति (śrayati) and Latin clīnō.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%BB%E1%BF%96%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%BE#Ancient_Greek
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%BB%CE%AF%CE%BD%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
"ladder" from the same root (<hlaidrijō), here:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/%E1%B8%B1ley-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/hlaidrij%C5%8D
For kakos etc, ToB has a root kak' "insignificant' (though the Nostratic is about bad), Avestan "kasu", 'small, insignificant':
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+423&root=config
Do you think that Sum. galam [STAIRCASE] wr. [ĝeš]galam "staircase, ladder" Akk. simmiltu
could be compared to Gr. κλῖμᾰξ (klîmax) f "ladder, staircase" etc? From κλῑ́νω (klī́nō, “I bend, lean”) > From Proto-Indo-European *ḱley-. Cognates include Sanskrit श्रयति (śrayati) and Latin clīnō.
Of course! . Looks strong again :) .
For kakos etc, ToB has a root kak' "insignificant' (though the Nostratic is about bad), Avestan "kasu", 'small, insignificant':
Very interesting :) .
Do you think that the word gulma you had proposed could be a kind of centum-like version of this root? I checked at Mayrhofer and he says that its structure, as "gul-ma", is definetely IE and the ideas about non-IE origin are not convincing.
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=gulma&direct=au
Also, this *kley root looks like *ktey (compared to tuku etc); also like the
*(s)lei- of "slime" etc (like in leimax, lomaca, for "snail" we have compared with Sum. lum); maybe then this *s(lei) is just a "satem-like" root, like for example a centum like *gleh₁y- ("glue" etc):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/gleh%E2%82%81y-
Do you think that the word gulma you had proposed could be a kind of centum-like version of this root?
Yes, it looks good Kyriakos :) .
Also, this *kley root looks like *ktey (compared to tuku etc); also like the
*(s)lei- of "slime" etc (like in leimax, lomaca, for "snail" we have compared with Sum. lum); maybe then this *s(lei) is just a "satem-like" root, like for example a centum like *gleh₁y- ("glue" etc):
I agree :) .
Sorry, I should write *k'tey, *k'ley... I think *k'ley looks also like *k'ey, at the end, for "lay down":
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=++1498&root=config
for example, in words for "bed", Skrt. śéte, śayate, -ti `to lie, lie down, rest'; śayā́, śayyā f. `bed, couch', also Gr. κοίτη koite for bed etc, which has another counterpart in Gr. κλίνη kline "bed" (from κλίνω < k'ley); so these could be compered perhaps to Sum. kina or kinu = bed; ePSD has kinud [BEDROOM] (119x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ki-nud "sleeping quarter, bed" Akk. mayyaltu; mayyālu
(as perhaps from a root like k'ey but with a -n ending like śayyāna etc)
Sumerian has also a word nud [LIE] (419x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. nud; nux(|HU.NA2|) "to lie down (of people); to lay down; to be ill" Akk. utulu; at Foxvog's Sum. Glossary is nú(d), nux(SA4) to lie (down), bed down, go to bed; to
lay down (e.g. traps, snares, sheaves; see Sjöberg, AV Klein 297); to creep, slither Previously read ná. For the value nux see še21; Veldhuis, in Education 284, calls še21 "the inanimate complement of nú."
This še21 (SA4) is the writing of še = to call, but also one of the writings of šed "to lie down (of animals); to rest, sleep (of animals)", you have compared to *sed (as a satem version of *kei I think?) the other writing beeing šex(NA2)
To this Sum. nud "to lie down" etc, the closest IE parallel I can think of is Pokorny's 1. sneud(h)- 'to drowse, slumber; drowsy, sleepy'
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1818
There is also κνώσσω knosso "slumber"; which I think it can be related to this root (if s- <k'- perhaps):
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dknw%2Fssw
Also there must be a connection to the root of "nod" and "need"
from Proto-Indo-European *new- (“to incline, tend, move, push, nod, wave”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/need
Sorry, I should write *k'tey, *k'ley... I think *k'ley looks also like *k'ey, at the end, for "lay down":
I understand :) .
To this Sum. nud "to lie down" etc, the closest IE parallel I can think of is Pokorny's 1. sneud(h)- 'to drowse, slumber; drowsy, sleepy'
I think this is quite good and sensible :) .
''There is also κνώσσω knosso "slumber"; which I think it can be related to this root (if s- <k'- perhaps):''
Interesting :) .
Also there must be a connection to the root of "nod" and "need"
Yes! :) .
proto N. Dravidian *kī-d- "to lay down" reminded me of Sum. karkid (prostitute).
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fdrav%2fndret&text_number=+372&root=config
κνώσσω knosso reminds of the city of Knossos; ("laid down"? as "establishment" perhaps?)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knossos
Yes I think the N.Dravidian word is comparable :) .
κνώσσω knosso reminds of the city of Knossos; ("laid down"? as "establishment" perhaps?)
Yes , possible! :) .
An poto-Semitic root *nwm "slumber" etc seems to be quite close:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=1218&root=config
Also a another proto-Semitic one *nVwVḫ- 'rest'
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=1846&root=config
From Akkadian nâḫu (Hebrew: nwḥ) is said to be derived biblical Noah
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah_(name)
Another ancient Gr. word that I can think is νῶκαρ nṓkar "lethargy, coma"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*n%3Aentry+group%3D35%3Aentry%3Dnw%3Dkar
probably related to nekros "dead" etc; the lexicon says that the ṓ instead of e could be an influence from κῶμα (kôma) deep sleep, lethargy, coma
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%E1%BF%B6%CE%BC%CE%B1#Ancient_Greek
"Uncertain. Probably related to κεῖμαι (keîmai, “I lie”), κοιμάω (koimáō, “I lay”)."
A possibility with "dead" ir rather "to kill" is in Halloran (ed. 2006), where it is "nud, nu2: to lie down; to lie together with (with -da-); to lay down (with -ni-); to sleep; to lie in wait, to catch with a trap, to kill (cf., nu2-nu2; [giš]nad3) (nu, 'not', + ed2, 'to go out')."
(btw nṓkar looks also close to nakar (nṓkar could be also close to noγor) :p; if Knossos is connected to κνώσσω knosso "το slumber", also having to do with "lain down, establihed, settled" maybe nakar / nagar / nagara means something similar :D
An poto-Semitic root *nwm "slumber" etc seems to be quite close
Yes :) .
Also a another proto-Semitic one *nVwVḫ- 'rest'
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=1846&root=config
From Akkadian nâḫu (Hebrew: nwḥ) is said to be derived biblical Noah
Yes its very interesting :) .
Another ancient Gr. word that I can think is νῶκαρ nṓkar "lethargy, coma"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*n%3Aentry+group%3D35%3Aentry%3Dnw%3Dkar
probably related to nekros "dead" etc; the lexicon says that the ṓ instead of e could be an influence from κῶμα (kôma) deep sleep, lethargy, coma
:D .
nṓkar looks also close to nakar (nṓkar could be also close to noγor) :p; if Knossos is connected to κνώσσω knosso "το slumber", also having to do with "lain down, establihed, settled" maybe nakar / nagar / nagara means something similar :D
! :D .
Except from šita there is also another Sum. word udug [WEAPON] (5x: Old Babylonian) wr. udug2; u3-dug4; u2-tu-ug "stick; a weapon" Akk. kakku, which seems again a TK word with a prothetic vowel.
It reminds me a bit of Gr. οὐτάω outao "to wound" etymology uknown (but in this case combined with a TK cluster??)
οὐτάω outao 1.to wound, hurt, hit with any kind of weapon; properly opp. to βάλλω, to wound by striking or thrusting, id=Il.; cf. οὐτάζω; κατ᾽ οὐταμένην ὠτειλήν by the wound inflicted 2.sometimes, generally, to wound, like βάλλω, Eur.
[ὠτειλή oteile means "wound" < **wat-?/ **wot-? as it seems there is a lithuanian votìs an a latvian vâts "wound" etc]
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dou)ta%2Fw
It reminds me a bit of Gr. οὐτάω outao "to wound"
Looks good Kyriakos ! :) .
Sorry, I forget the suggestion about šita [WEAPON] (52x: Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. šita2; [ĝeš]šita2; [ĝeš]šita4; [ĝeš]šitax(|KAK.GIŠ|) "a weapon" Akk. kakku.
I meant it reminded me also about kSiti- "destruction" etc (like in the comparison about tukul, xylon, etc - a "thorn cluster")...
oh okay :) .
Of course the TK cluster in Greek about killing etc is found in κτείνω kteino, "to kill, to slaughter"...
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dktei%2Fnw
About udug/utug another assumption could be about a connection to Gr. ὀξύς "sharp":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%80%CE%BE%CF%8D%CF%82
if we consider that ks- is supposed to be not just from *h₂eḱ- +s , but of a kind of Htk- > **otk- "thorn cluster" which turned **oks- in Indo-Greek (tk>ks like in Indic), (o=u in Sumerian, so an **otk could mean "sharp, "wounding pointed stick" or something like).
if we consider that ks- is supposed to be not just from *h₂eḱ- +s , but of a kind of Htk- > **otk- "thorn cluster" which turned **oks- in Indo-Greek (tk>ks like in Indic), (o=u in Sumerian, so an **otk could mean "sharp, "wounding pointed stick" or something like).
Interesting :) .
There is also gaz [KILL] (402x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. gaz; gaz2; kaz8 "to kill, slaughter; to grind, grate; to beat; to thresh (grain); to execute, impose a death sentence; to break" Akk. dâku "to kill; to beat"; habātu "plunder"; hašālu; kaşāşu "to grind, grate"; pa'āşu; šagāšu "to kill, slaughter".
looking also like a kind of vocalized KS (Akk. dâku "to kill" seems also like a TK cluster).
Yes its possible :) .
I think it is also possible that a word like "axis" etc is of proto-Indic origin (because of the -ks-); from a "TK" again word (meaning a kind of stick or pole, most probably)
axis: From Proto-Indo-European *h₂eḱs- (“axis”); see also Lithuanian ašis (“axle”), Sanskrit अक्ष (akṣa, “axle, axis, balance beam”), Ancient Greek ἄξων (áxōn, “axle”), Old High German ahsa (“axle”), and Old English eax, English axle, eax, Icelandic öxull, öksull.
What do you think about it? (as I have said, I'm suspicious of a h₂eḱ-s derivation, I think that h₂eḱ- as such is a secondary root, of a TK cluster; something like "stick" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/stick).
What do you think about it? (as I have said, I'm suspicious of a h₂eḱ-s derivation, I think that h₂eḱ- as such is a secondary root, of a TK cluster; something like "stick"
I think its very interesting :) . About the root of stick (https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1884) . There is also (s)tei- (https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1882)
it could be something like **HTK, similar to this "udug" word (which btw reminded me also of this root which we were talked before, at Giacomo's posts: *wedh-:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2Fdata%2Fie%2Fbaltet&text_number=++1362&root=config
it could be something like **HTK, similar to this "udug" word (which btw reminded me also of this root which we were talked before, at Giacomo's posts: *wedh-:
I agree :) .
For this I'not sune, Nirjhar, it's just an impression:
az [BEAR] (248x: ED IIIa, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium) wr. az; ĝešaz "bear; ~ figurine" Akk. asu
with the IE root for "bear" (but as ffrom a kind of **ars-, like in Arm. arj, or Lat. ursus.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82%C5%95%CC%A5t%E1%B8%B1os
I like the impression :D !.
Hi Nirjhar,
An impression :D that I also have is that this "az" could be connected to that "gaz"; so I would say now that maybe gaz is from some **K(v)TK (perhaps with TK>TS, z=ts?, then z = s?); so that "az" could be just H(r)TK > H(/)ts > Hs? :D
Also the "az" for "myrtle" could mean a bush with thorny leafs (or something like).
BTW "Ayish" or "Ash" is the name of "bear" in Hebrew (a similar name also is in Akkadian, I think); yet, it is not about "bear" the animal, which has a different name, but "bear" as the constellation ("Great Bear"):
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5906.htm
Most probably this "ayish" or "ash" is from Sumerian.
I would say now that maybe gaz is from some **K(v)TK (perhaps with TK>TS, z=ts?, then z = s?); so that "az" could be just H(r)TK > H(/)ts > Hs? :D
Also the "az" for "myrtle" could mean a bush with thorny leafs (or something like).
I understand :) .
Most probably this "ayish" or "ash" is from Sumerian.
:D .
About Sum. az "myrtle" (Akk. asu), in Greek myrtle is μυρτος myrtos; yet, I was thinking about the name of some other bush, juniper, which is in Greek ἄρκευθος (árkeuthos): "juniper, Juniperus macrocarpa; Phoenician cedar, Juniperus phoenicea; prickly cedar, Juniperus oxycedrus".
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%84%CF%81%CE%BA%CE%B5%CF%85%CE%B8%CE%BF%CF%82
mainly because "bear" is also in Greek ἄρκος árkos (main name ἄρκτος árktos).
! :D
;) the lexicon about arkeuthos mentions also a Skrt. name RkSara "thorn" (but it is also about bears, as I see):D
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=rksara&direct=se
;) the lexicon about arkeuthos mentions also a Skrt. name RkSara "thorn" (but it is also about bears, as I see):D
Yeah :D .
The possible pronouncuation of Sum. "az" (according to this proposed derivation from a Hrtk- / Hrkt- of "bear"), seems to me like Germ. Arzt "doctor" /aːɐ̯tst/ (standard); /aːts(t)/ (common; particularly northern and central Germany), which is supposed to be derived from Gr. ἀρχίατρος arkhiatros "arch-doctor, arch-physician"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Arzt
:D
seems to me like Germ. Arzt "doctor" /aːɐ̯tst/ (standard); /aːts(t)/ (common; particularly northern and central Germany), which is supposed to be derived from Gr. ἀρχίατρος arkhiatros "arch-doctor, arch-physician"
:D brilliant !.
Another tree name which could look like "az" I think is the ash-tree:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ash
From a possible *h₃osk- (here the Gr. word is ὀξύα oxúa, “beech” (which looks like ὀξῠ́ς oxús "sharp, pointed"); meanwhile the Gr. word φήγος phegos, which normally could mean "beech", means "oak, acorn":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CE%B7%CE%B3%CF%8C%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
Yes :) .
Another curious idea of today is a comparison of Sum. azag [TABOO] (6x: Old Babylonian) wr. azag "taboo, forbidden thing" Akk. asakku
with this Gr. word:
αἶσχος (aîskhos) n (genitive αἴσχεος or αἴσχους); third declension
"dishonour, shame, disgrace, ugliness" 9etymology unclear).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B1%E1%BC%B6%CF%83%CF%87%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
(though, obviously, it is not exactly a "taboo", but certainly something that dishonours somebody if he/she does it).
but certainly something that dishonours somebody if he/she does it
I agree :) .
Frisk in his Etymological Greek Dictionary has a Gothic word aiwiski "shame"; though the IE root (if any) is not known:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%F0%90%8C%B0%F0%90%8C%B9%F0%90%8D%85%F0%90%8C%B9%F0%90%8D%83%F0%90%8C%BA%F0%90%8C%B9#Gothic
?(It reminds me the word "whiskey" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/whiskey
From Irish uisce beatha and Scottish Gaelic uisge-beatha (literally “water of life”), calque of Latin aqua vitae, from Proto-Celtic *udenskyos (“water”) + Proto-Celtic *biwotos (“life”).
?(It reminds me the word "whiskey" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/whiskey
From Irish uisce beatha and Scottish Gaelic uisge-beatha (literally “water of life”), calque of Latin aqua vitae, from Proto-Celtic *udenskyos (“water”) + Proto-Celtic *biwotos (“life”).
Interesting! :) .
:D but I think it's not about water (or is it :p ); the ending could be -skos though...
There is also ᾰ̓́γος (ágos) n (genitive ᾰ̓́γεος or ᾰ̓́γους); third declension
"awe, reverence, dread; curse, pollution, guilt; abomination; expiatory sacrifice"
Etymology: Uncertain. Most commonly explained as from Proto-Indo-European *h₂ego-, with cognates such as Sanskrit आगस् (ā́gas) and Old English acan (English ache) (i.e. Beekes, Pokorny). However, Chantraine prefers a relation to ἅγιος (hágios, “holy”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%84%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%82
Look also here, at these interesting comparisons of Malory/Adams etc:
https://books.google.gr/books?id=lzilBQAAQBAJ&pg=PT408&lpg=PT408&dq=aiwiski+%22shame%22&source=bl&ots=Zn-TScmtX4&sig=C_BSdISVfzO_K73pZZgahQ8WDEQ&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjPkdv1z5PYAhXB3KQKHRobAnQQ6AEILTAB#v=onepage&q=aiwiski%20%22shame%22&f=false
Another interesting comparison is to Tocharian yäsk- (vt.) ‘± sully’ (?)
Ps. II /yäsk'ä/e-/ [MP -, -, yaṣtär//] [śault]s[a] wärññai yäṣträ ma nrai[ṣṣana wäntarwasa] [the suggestion for filling the latter lacuna is entirely my own] ‘all [his] life long he does not sully himself with hellish things’ (143a3) [if this does not belong with yäs-]. Perhaps this yäsk- reflects the same PIE *h4isgh- seen in Hittite iskuna(hh)- ‘stain; stigmatize, denounce; degrade, disgrace’ and iskunant- ‘stained,’ the zero-grade of *h4eisgh- seen in Greek aiskhūnō ‘make ugly, disfigure, dishonor,’ aiskhūnē (f.) ‘shame, dishonor,’ and aiskhrós ‘ugly, deformed, dishonoring, shameful’ (unless the Greek too represents a zero-grade with "breaking" of *-i- after *h4- as presumed by some). For the Greek and Hittite, see Puhvel, 1984:426-428. See also aiskatstse.
About the implications of this comparison with Hit. iskuna etc, look also here:
https://books.google.gr/books?id=5S9z2klfvq0C&pg=PA174&lpg=PA174&dq=Hittite+iskuna&source=bl&ots=rvDJ8gDdY3&sig=qPfi-zvbKo3SlbRugaR1MXLUQCs&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj2nbzg2pPYAhVP_KQKHcxZBmsQ6AEIMjAC#v=onepage&q=Hittite%20iskuna&f=false
but I think it's not about water (or is it :p ); the ending could be -skos though...
Yes :) .
"awe, reverence, dread; curse, pollution, guilt; abomination; expiatory sacrifice"
Etymology: Uncertain. Most commonly explained as from Proto-Indo-European *h₂ego-, with cognates such as Sanskrit आगस् (ā́gas) and Old English acan (English ache) (i.e. Beekes, Pokorny). However, Chantraine prefers a relation to ἅγιος (hágios, “holy”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%84%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%82
Look also here, at these interesting comparisons of Malory/Adams etc:
Yes , they are interesting :) .
Perhaps this yäsk- reflects the same PIE *h4isgh- seen in Hittite iskuna(hh)- ‘stain; stigmatize, denounce; degrade, disgrace’ and iskunant- ‘stained,’ the zero-grade of *h4eisgh- seen in Greek aiskhūnō ‘make ugly, disfigure, dishonor,’ aiskhūnē (f.) ‘shame, dishonor,’ and aiskhrós ‘ugly, deformed, dishonoring, shameful’ (unless the Greek too represents a zero-grade with "breaking" of *-i- after *h4- as presumed by some). For the Greek and Hittite, see Puhvel, 1984:426-428. See also aiskatstse.
About the implications of this comparison with Hit. iskuna etc, look also here:
I see :) .
This *h4isgh- etc looks like a kind of "sig" SK reversed KS/TK word (like *segh "hold" etc); also a kind of "KrK" is not far away from the HrTK/rKS/HrKT for "bear" (the second K replaced by a full thorn cluster TK/KS/KT); the roots like HK- also seem secondary; "azag" could then have been derived from some initially form like **HTK-HK (maybe it's about a notion of touching / defilement with TK for tak-, touch etc- I'm not sure if there could be an initially a- in aiskhos - probably not).
"azag" could then have been derived from some initially form like **HTK-HK (maybe it's about a notion of touching / defilement with TK for tak-, touch etc
! :D
:D we'll be never bored about that kind of stuff, Nirjhar, I'm afraid :D
I agree :) .
Sum. azag "taboo" is written as kug "bright" + an "up, sky", as obviously something remote inspiring the awe (or shame, reminds of Sum. "teš"); so perhaps if one touches it, this is a dishonour or stigmatization for this person (like Gr. aiskhos); about the Gr. comparison, the meaning of aiskhūnō as ‘to make ugly, disfigure" is secondary, according to the lexicon, used in this meaning by Plato.
so perhaps if one touches it, this is a dishonour or stigmatization for this person (like Gr. aiskhos); about the Gr. comparison, the meaning of aiskhūnō as ‘to make ugly, disfigure" is secondary, according to the lexicon, used in this meaning by Plato.
Yes, I agree :) .
About the notion of "pointed" etc, and the possibility of roots like HTK (or even KTK) etc, in Greek there are some words like κάκτος kaktos "cactus" (<**KTK?), ἀκτή (aktḗ) "headland, cape, promontory; any raised place" (<**HTK?); ἀκτῑ́ς • (aktī́s) "ray, beam;(figuratively) brightness, splendor; spoke (of a wheel) (about the etymology of this last one: "Unclear. Sometimes compared with Sanskrit अक्तु (aktu, “beam, ray”)[1][2], but there are difficulties in semantics."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%AC%CE%BA%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CE%BA%CF%84%CE%AE
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CE%BA%CF%84%CE%AF%CF%82
About azad [SHELTER] (2x: Old Babylonian) wr. azad2; azadx(|A.LAGAB×HAL.ŠU2|) "reed shelter" Akk. ašāšu
Do you think a comparison with chadati fits?
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=chadati&direct=se
From sk̂ed- "to cover"
Material Ai. chadati (unbelegt), chādáyati `bedeck, verbirgt', chattra-m `Schirm', chadíṣ- n. `Decke, Dach'; av. sādayantī- `ein Kleidungsstück' (skyth. Hose?), afghan. psōləl `to put on, wear' (*pati-upa-sad-); ahd. hāz m., mhd. hǣze n. `Rock, Kleidung', ags. hǣteru Nom. Pl. n. `Kleider'.
Reminds also (s)keu-2, (s)keu̯ə : (s)kū- "to cover" (with a dental extension)
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1752
The initial vowel though is not easily explained.
About the notion of "pointed" etc, and the possibility of roots like HTK (or even KTK) etc,
Yes I agree :) .
Do you think a comparison with chadati fits?
Possible :) .
Reminds also (s)keu-2, (s)keu̯ə : (s)kū- "to cover" (with a dental extension)
Yes :) .
Another possible word is chattra (like chata) etc
From Proto-Indo-European *skh₃tos (“shade”). Cognate with Ancient Greek σκότος (skótos, “darkness”), English shadow and Old Irish scáth (“shade”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%9B%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0#Sanskrit
I think though that the *sked root fits better; it looks also like the *ket for Latin catinus etc https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/catinus
Pokorny's Root: kē̆t-, kot- dwelling space [something circular in shape, like a hole in the ground, or a nest etc]
Material Av. kata- m. `Kammer, Vorratskammer, Keller od. dgl.' (: got. hēþjō), npers. kad `Haus', woraus finn. kota; aber über anord. kot `schlechte Hütte', kytja `Hütte', ags. cot `Hütte, Kammer' usw. s. oben S. 393 f.; got. hēþjō `Kammer'; ksl. kotьcь`cella, Nest' usw.; falls `Wohngrube, Loch in der Erde' die ursprüngliche Bedeutung, würden sich anreihen lassen: gr. κοτύλη, κότυλος `Hohlung', weiter `hohles Gefäß, Schale, Becher'; lat. catīnus `eine Schüssel zum Speisenauftragen' (Demin. catillus, daraus got. katils, dt. Kessel, daraus wieder abg. kotъlъ, lit. kãtilas) = ags. heden `Kochgeschirr'.
These kind or words are similar to words from other language families (as it is said). This "kot" fits well, I think to Sum. gud [NEST] (55x: Old Babylonian) wr. gud3; gigud3 "coil of bird's nest; reed nest, shelter; nest" Akk. hīšu; kumāşu; qinnu (most probably we have talked about this comparison, or some similar, before). Note that the Akkadian equivalent of azad "ašāšu" means also "a type of nest made by waterfowl"; so it must be a rounded structure similar to a nest, also to a head (azad is also "head" in Sumerian).
Maybe azad is from a kind of HTK-HT > HKT-HT > HSK-HT? (the first HTK from a (s)teg "cover" ) :D
These kind or words are similar to words from other language families (as it is said). This "kot" fits well, I think to Sum. gud [NEST] (55x: Old Babylonian) wr. gud3; gigud3 "coil of bird's nest; reed nest, shelter; nest" Akk. hīšu; kumāşu; qinnu (most probably we have talked about this comparison, or some similar, before). Note that the Akkadian equivalent of azad "ašāšu" means also "a type of nest made by waterfowl"; so it must be a rounded structure similar to a nest, also to a head (azad is also "head" in Sumerian).
Maybe azad is from a kind of HTK-HT > HKT-HT > HSK-HT? (the first HTK from a (s)teg "cover" ) :D
I agree :D .
There is also a Gr. word σκύτη (or σκύτα) skyte (or skyta) "head"; also "neck" (looks like σκῦτος "skin" for some reason, which is in Pokorny's *skeu root)
http://etymology_el_en.enacademic.com/6450/%CF%83%CE%BA%E1%BD%BB%CF%84%CE%B7
skyte is though to be a pre-Greek word (the only comparison is to a Lithuanian skutna "bald head" etc). There is also a Dorian word κοττίς kottis (or κοτίς kotis) meaning κεφαλή kephale "head". The σκύτη skyte word looks again like sukud(r) for "high" perhaps.
I agree with you .
Hi Nirjhar,
The assumption of the day :D (not at all sure about it): it's about akud [CRIPPLE] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. a2-kud "cripple" Akk. akû (most probably in Sumerian is also "aku", ku5 is the sign of Sum. kud " cut" etc; I checked at CAD and it states that Sum. aku is from Akkadian aku and not the opposite; on the other hand I couldn't find any semitic root for "aku").
The comparison is to a Hittite word "ikniyant- "crippled, paralytic, lame" etc:
https://books.google.gr/books?id=LbG8vw_pva8C&pg=PA354&lpg=PA354&dq=Hittite+ikniyant&source=bl&ots=_UBkMkV4wD&sig=j0b49Q3ztgvGhu7yJirYTAM8sQk&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj6mb3ejJjYAhWDShQKHcYXAdMQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=Hittite%20ikniyant&f=false
connected possibly to Hit. eka "cold, ice" < *yeg "ice, icicle"; Pokorny's root here:
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0773
That's very interesting IMO :D .
Yeah :) the Gr. word mentioned at the Hittite lemma about "ikniyant" is ὄκνος oknos
meaning "shrinking, hesitation, unreadiness, sluggishness; alarm, fear", also a later meaning is "laziness"; the root is unknown and the word is not about a meaning of "cold" or "invalid, lame" etc, but of a kind of weakness, fear etc; I've noticed another Akkadian aku "weak, powerless, humble"; maybe they are connected :P
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=2273&language=id
Yes I find it good! :D .
:D I'm wondering if this *yeg and Akkadian aku, Hiitite eka are somehow connected to Sum. šeg "snow, frost, ice" (and *sneigu̯h- for "snow").
Interesting :) .
On the other hand, the "normal" root for fear etc, close perhaps to the other aku, is *h₂egʰ- (the root of "awe") the Gr. reflexes here are ἄχνυμαι (ákhnumai) "to be troubled, to be sad", ἄχος "sorrow, pain" etc.
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0015
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82eg%CA%B0-
Can be related fear, coldness , immobility .
Also snake (causing fear, maybe?)
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=ahi&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
(the roots of "snow" and "snake" are close, too.)
:D .
Maybe the famous theme of Indo-European i.e. Hero Slaying the snake/dragon is also related.
Another word ad [CRIPPLED] (5x: Old Babylonian) wr. ad4 "(to be) crippled" Akk. kubbulu is written by a sign called "za tenu", meaning a "za" = man in an oblique position.
A word I found in Hesychius is ἰάδος iados = στρεβλός streblos ("crooked"). Maybe "crooked" could mean also "disabled" and this iados looks like from some **yad; though I have no idea about its etymology.
I see :) .
Reminds me of the hero Iamos and the possible connection with *yem (for gemini etc).
I'm though suspicious about such roots like "yeg", "yem" etc...
I understand Kyriakos .
Hesychius has also a ἰάδει = καθεύδει (iadei = katheudei) meaning "he/she sleeps/lies for sleeping"; καθεύδω katheudo is from κατά kata + εὕδω heudo, this latter (of uknown etymology, also) looks from some **sew-d (while the root for somnus and hupnos "sleep" is *swep).
http://etymology_el_en.enacademic.com/2655/%CE%B5%E1%BD%95%CE%B4%CF%89
It looks a bit like the proposed root for "sick" (*sewg)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sick
It looks a bit like the proposed root for "sick" (*sewg)
Yes :) .
German "krank" meaning "sick" is also from a root meanining "crooked, weak":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/krank
This is a kind of "KRK" :D word (its ultimate root *ger is totally Germanic, I think); "sick" on the other hand looks like a kind of "SK" word; the KK (K'K?) word could perhaps correspond to Sum. gig "sick"; sig also means "(to be) weak/low/thin/narrow".
Gr. εὕδω heudo, though, means "to sleep" without a notion of ilness or deformity (sometimes reminds me Sum. udi, wr. u3-di "(to be) dazed; sleep" Akk. kâru; šittu :D).
This is a kind of "KRK" :D word (its ultimate root *ger is totally Germanic, I think); "sick" on the other hand looks like a kind of "SK" word; the KK (K'K?) word could perhaps correspond to Sum. gig "sick"; sig also means "(to be) weak/low/thin/narrow".
Gr. εὕδω heudo, though, means "to sleep" without a notion of ilness or deformity (sometimes reminds me Sum. udi, wr. u3-di "(to be) dazed; sleep" Akk. kâru; šittu :D
True :D .
Sum. eš [COLD] wr. eš13 "(to be) cold" Akk. kuşşû "winter('s)" looks also like "ice" from h₁éyH-s-om (< *h₁éyH-s-os ~ *h₁iH-és-os?)root h₁eyH-:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%81eyH-
Not sure, but I think we have compared this before.
Persian yax (yakh), from this root, is interesting because it reminds also this other root *yeg (yag)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%DB%8C%D8%AE#Persian
(I would say also that Ak. kuşşû is the KK' word :D)
I think you have :) . Yes, I think it makes cool sense :D .
Searching the Hittite Dictionary I encountered "harsar" meaning "head", which seems to be something between the *k'er- for "head" etc and the root of Gr. oros "mountain" (*her/har); also reminded me Sum. hursaĝ, wr. hur-saĝ; PA.DUN3 "mountain, foothills; steppe".
https://books.google.gr/books?id=kghtOX_crPMC&pg=PA187&lpg=PA187&dq=hittite+harsar+head&source=bl&ots=Qu_LFxkZAk&sig=SLPaAWX3OUJleIYtf1nMsuraW4E&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjkiLLzjZvYAhXKVhQKHXZ5CsMQ6AEIOzAI#v=onepage&q=hittite%20harsar%20head&f=false
That's a very nice proposal Kyriakos :) .
I found tonight this interesting paper of Harvard about the name of the god Apollo (Apóllōn):
"The etymology of Apollo’s name, Apóllōn, has defied linguistic reconstruction for a long time. [1] A breakthrough came with a 1975 article by Walter Burkert, where he proposes that the Doric form of the name, Apéllōn, be connected with the noun apéllai, designating a seasonally recurring festival—an assembly or thing, in Germanic terms—of Dorian kinship groups. [2] The linguistic principles underlying Burkert’s proposal have been definitively restated in a posthumously published work by Alfred Heubeck, who shows that the earliest recoverable form of the name is *apeli̯ōn, built on a noun shaped *apeli̯a: thus the meaning would be something like ‘he of the assembly’. [3] The point of departure for my presentation is a Cypriote by-form of Apollo's name, Apeílōn (to-i-a-pe-lo-ni = τῶι Ἀπείλωνι), showing the earlier e-vocalism as opposed to the innovative o-vocalism of Apóllōn. [4] {138|139} Following up on a suggestion that I heard viva voce many years ago from Leonard Muellner, I propose to connect the name of Apollo, with recourse to this Cypriote by-form, to the Homeric noun apeilḗ, meaning ‘promise, boastful promise, threat’, and to the corresponding verb, apeiléō ‘make a promise, boastful promise, threat’. [5] Offering arguments in support of this connection, I hope to show that the meaning of these forms apeilḗ and apeiléō is based on the concept of a speech-act, and that this concept dovetails with the meaning of apéllai, based on an actual context of speech-acts. Such dovetailing helps explain the essence of Apollo, ‘he of the *apeli̯a’, as the god of authoritative speech, the one who presides over all manner of speech-acts, including the realms of songmaking in general and poetry in particular."
https://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/3383
There is also a god Apaliunas:
Apaliunas is the name of a god, attested in a Hittite language treaty as a protective deity of Wilusa. Apaliunas is considered to be the Hittite reflex of *Apeljōn, an early form of the name Apollo, which may also be surmised from comparison of Cypriot Ἀπείλων with Doric Ἀπέλλων.[1]
Apaliunas is among the gods who guarantee a treaty drawn up about 1280 BCE between Alaksandu of Wilusa, interpreted as "Alexander of Ilios" and the great Hittite king,[2] Muwatalli II. He is one of the three deities named on the side of the city. In Homer, Apollo is the builder of the walls of Ilium, a god on the Trojan side. A Luwian etymology suggested for Apaliunas makes Apollo "The One of Entrapment", perhaps in the sense of "Hunter".[3]
Further east of the Luwian language area, a Hurrian god Aplu was a deity of the plague – bringing it, or, if propitiated, protecting from it – and resembles Apollo Smintheus, "mouse-Apollo"[4] worshiped at Troy and Tenedos, who brought plague upon the Achaeans in answer to a Trojan prayer at the opening of Iliad.[5] Aplu, it is suggested, comes from the Akkadian Aplu Enlil, meaning "the son of Enlil", a title that was given to the god Nergal, who was linked to Shamash, Babylonian god of the Sun,[6][not in citation given] and with the plague.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apaliunas
Gr. ἀπειλέω apeileō "hold out either in the way of promise or threat"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Da)peile%2Fw2
So, the comparison is between apeileō/Apollōn etc and Akkadian aplu (a word of uknown derivation); also these Sumerian words:
ibila [HEIR] (133x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian, unknown) wr. ibila; i3-bi2-la; ibila2; i3-bi-lu "heir" Akk. aplu
perhaps also to ibilu [UTTERANCE] wr. i-bi-lu "utterance, saying; pronounciation" Akk. hittu; tēltu
So, the comparison is between apeileō/Apollōn etc and Akkadian aplu (a word of uknown derivation); also these Sumerian words:
ibila [HEIR] (133x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian, unknown) wr. ibila; i3-bi2-la; ibila2; i3-bi-lu "heir" Akk. aplu
perhaps also to ibilu [UTTERANCE] wr. i-bi-lu "utterance, saying; pronounciation" Akk. hittu; tēltu
Lovely Kyriakos ! :D .
Hi Nirjhar,
There are also other theories about the name of Apollon, see here:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%88%CF%80%CF%8C%CE%BB%CE%BB%CF%89%CE%BD#Ancient_Greek
The name as "Aploun" (in Thessaly) looks more to Akkadian "aplu" (btw, the etymology of the akkadian words is also unknown). The connection with apeilo (meaning "threat (by shouting etc)" or "promise loudly" or "boasting" etc) seems more promising, I think.
There is also a connection (as "Apellon") to Apella, which was the assembly, gathering of the people in ancient Sparta:
"The word is derived from the Doric word apella (ἀπέλλα), which originally meant wall, fence for animals and later assembly of people within the limits of the square.[2] The explanation is given by Hesychius: apellai (ἀπέλλαι), sekoi (σηκοί "folds"), ecclesiai (ἐκκλησίαι: popular assemblies).[3][4] The festival apellai was surely dedicated to the god Apollo (Doric form: Ἀπέλλων) and it was spread by the Dorians in central-Greece, as it is proved by the use of the month Apellaios (Ἀπέλλαιος).[5]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apella
So, I guess it fots good, since there were people then who summoned the populace for gathering (using threats sometimes); at least, the term Ekklesia (used in other cities, including Athens) has this meaning (from καλέω kaleo); there is also a Sanskrit reflex, look here:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kalba#Lithuanian
From Proto-Indo-European *kele- (“to shout”), which is imitative; see also Old English hlowan (“to low, make a noise like a cow”), Old High German halan (“to call”), Ancient Greek κλεδον (kledon, “report, fame”), κλήση (klḗsē, “to call”), κέλαδος (kélados, “noise”), Middle Irish cailech (“cock”), Latin calō (“to call out, announce solemnly”), Sanskrit उषःकाल (uṣaḥkāla, “cock, literally dawn-calling”).
καλέω kaleo here:
From Proto-Indo-European *kl̥h₁-, zero-grade of *kelh₁- + -έω (-éō). Cognates include Old English hlōwan and English low (verb); Latin calō, clāmō, clārus, classis, and concilium; Old Irish cailech; Old Armenian աքաղաղ (akʿałał).
I guess apeileo and kaleo have similar meanings; the notion of "Apella" as sekos "fold" fits also good to Apollon, who grazed the cattle, see the story about Apollo's lyre and the god Hermes who has stolen Apollo's cattle here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo
Maybe the "heir" in case of Akkadian / Sumerian was proclaimed loudly, or maybe, as a young man, was boasting or something like that; Sum. "banda" meant not only "son", but also "wilde, fierce, proud", if you remember. :)
So, I guess it fots good, since there were people then who summoned the populace for gathering (using threats sometimes); at least, the term Ekklesia (used in other cities, including Athens) has this meaning (from καλέω kaleo); there is also a Sanskrit reflex, look here:
I agree Kyriakos , yes :) .
I guess apeileo and kaleo have similar meanings; the notion of "Apella" as sekos "fold" fits also good to Apollon, who grazed the cattle, see the story about Apollo's lyre and the god Hermes who has stolen Apollo's cattle here:
Yes :) .
Maybe the "heir" in case of Akkadian / Sumerian was proclaimed loudly, or maybe, as a young man, was boasting or something like that; Sum. "banda" meant not only "son", but also "wilde, fierce, proud", if you remember. :)
:D .
:D ;) BTW, have you seen this interesting blog about soumd changes theories similar to Speirs' and Djiebel's?
"Discussion of Vladimir Diakoff's proposed sound changes"
http://indoeuropeanetymology.blogspot.gr/2016/03/discussion-of-vladimir-diakoffs.html
I was not aware . Thank you :) .
This ibila reminded me of tibira, also ibiza, and in this latter the i- was somehow prothetic; so I thought that maybe it is the same also in "ibila" (and apeilo); so maybe it was (H?)pel- < (H?)kwel(H?) > kelH? apeileo reminds also eileo (<*wel); in fact there is another apeileo "keep away, unroll" (frpm apo + eileo (<wel-)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Da)peile%2Fw1
Halloran has also a sUM. til4,5,6, tal3,4,5: cry, shout, scream (te; ti, 'to be frightened', + ?).
''This ibila reminded me of tibira, also ibiza, and in this latter the i- was somehow prothetic; so I thought that maybe it is the same also in "ibila" (and apeilo); so maybe it was (H?)pel- < (H?)kwel(H?) > kelH? apeileo reminds also eileo (<*wel); in fact there is another apeileo "keep away, unroll" (frpm apo + eileo (<wel-)''
:D .
Certainly in Pokorny's root apeile is a cognate of "spell":
(s)pel- "to speak aloud; to tell' ....
Material
Arm. aṙa-spel `Sage, Sprichwort, Rätsel'; got. spill n. `Erzählung, Sage, Fabel', aisl. spjall n. `Erzählung, Rede', ags. spell n. `Erzählung, Rede, Predigt' (engl. gospel = ags. gōd-spell) `Evangelium'; ahd. spel, -les n. `Erzählung, Rede, Märchen', ahd. mhd. bī-spel `belehrende Erzählung, Fabel, Gleichnis', nhd. Beispiel; davon got. spillōn `verkündigen, erzählen', aisl. spialla `reden, erwähnen', ags. spellian `reden, erzählen' (engl. spell), ahd. got-spellōn `evangelizare', mhd. spellen `erzählen, reden, schwatzen'; damit sind als s-lose Formen vereinbar gr. ἀπειλή `Drohung; prahlerische Versprechung' (ἀπειλέω `drohe; gelobe, verheiße; rühme mich, prahle'), falls aus *ἀπελνι̯α, worin ἀ- am ehesten die Präp. *n̥ `ἐν'; (auch germ. -ll- wohl aus -ln-) lett. pel̂t `schmähen, lästern, verleumden', pal'as (Plur.) `Tadel, Schmähung', iz-pal'uôt `tüchtig ausschmähen', sowie toch. päl-, pāl- `preisen'.
So, maybe it is **(s)kwel- / spel- or **(s)kwel- /> Hpel- or > Hkel > Kelh
it reminds also *tpel for "city, fortfication"; since "apella" is described also as a kind for fence; also the proposed H like the H in ageiro < *Hger.
(I am approaching deliberately again nagara :D )
Another idea could be a comparison of Sum. ibira [MERCHANT] wr. ibira (tibira2); ibira2 "merchant, businessman" Akk. tamkāru
with *per "to buy, sell" (Nostratic here):
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=+735&root=config
Maybe also connected to *per "to pass through"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%AD%CF%81%CE%BD%CE%B7%CE%BC%CE%B9
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pars#Latin
which reminds also the Hebrew abar "to cross over"
http://studybible.info/strongs/H5674
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=1641&root=config
connected also to the name "Hebrew":
https://www.etymonline.com/word/hebrew
:D
So, maybe it is **(s)kwel- / spel- or **(s)kwel- /> Hpel- or > Hkel > Kelh
it reminds also *tpel for "city, fortfication"; since "apella" is described also as a kind for fence; also the proposed H like the H in ageiro < *Hger.
(I am approaching deliberately again nagara :D )
! :D .
Another idea could be a comparison of Sum. ibira [MERCHANT] wr. ibira (tibira2); ibira2 "merchant, businessman" Akk. tamkāru
with *per "to buy, sell" (Nostratic here):
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=+735&root=config
Plausible! :) .
Maybe also connected to *per "to pass through"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%AD%CF%81%CE%BD%CE%B7%CE%BC%CE%B9
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pars#Latin
which reminds also the Hebrew abar "to cross over"
http://studybible.info/strongs/H5674
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=1641&root=config
connected also to the name "Hebrew":
https://www.etymonline.com/word/hebrew
:D
I agree :D .
:D of course you must know that the common greek for prostitute (πόρνη porne) is thought to be from this same root for "selling".
ToB does not connect these roots for buying and selling to *per of crossing etc, but with a notion of "gathering"
The long-range etymologies of ToB about this root (as PVRV) reminde also the root of "city" (Eurasiatic: *ṗVrV buy, assemble, Afroasiatic : *pVḫVr-"assemble":
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2feura%2fglobet&text_number=+756&root=config
*pVḫVr-
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fafaset&text_number=2371&root=config
Semitic etymology:
Number: 1878
Proto-Semitic: *pVḫVr-
Afroasiatic etymology: Afroasiatic etymology
Meaning: 'assemble'
Akkadian: paḫāru
Mehri: faḫre 'all together'
Jibbali: fáḫrǝh 'together'
Soqotri: faḥr-ö
Notes: Cf. a nominal derivative *puḫ(V)r- 'assembly, gathering': Akk puḫru, Ug pḫr.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=1878&root=config
This Akkadian word exists in Sumerian as puhrum [ASSEMBLY] (19x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. pu-uh2-ru-um; pu-uh3-ru-um; pu-uh2-rum; pu-uh-ru-um; pu-hu-ru-um "assembly" Akk. puhru
That is quite close to pura again (the writing of ibira as the same with "tibira" indicates something like the initial "t" in *tpelH" for p(t)olis, perhaps); also the meaning of puhrum "assembly" is also close to *Hger of ageiro, connected probably to agara/nagara; so one wonders of some ultimate common origin for all these roots (also "agora" in Greek is about buying and selling, also about talking, speeches etc, verb ἀγορεύω (agoreúō)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%B5%CF%8D%CF%89)
That is quite close to pura again (the writing of ibira as the same with "tibira" indicates something like the initial "t" in *tpelH" for p(t)olis, perhaps); also the meaning of puhrum "assembly" is also close to *Hger of ageiro, connected probably to agara/nagara; so one wonders of some ultimate common origin for all these roots (also "agora" in Greek is about buying and selling, also about talking, speeches etc, verb ἀγορεύω (agoreúō)
! :D .
:D At the end this proposed root is a kind of *kwel (kwel/r) for "inhabit" (incolo, inquilinus etc); yet, about the notion of "heir" (in Sumerian "ibila", Akkad. aplu), I made a thought tonight (assuming "ibila" and "ibira" of some ultimate common origin); the assumption is, first, about a possible connection of that semitic *pVḫVr- root "assemble" to this similar root *bVḥVr- root "to choose":
Proto-Semitic: *bVḥVr-
Afroasiatic etymology: Afroasiatic etymology
Meaning: 'choose'
Akkadian: bêru, beh_eru
Hebrew: bḥr
Aramaic: (Palest) bǝhar
Epigraphic South Arabian: bḥr
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=1091&root=config
and afterwards, a possibility of another derivation *wel < *kwel (or **(s)H/kwel, as assumed above); this *wel is the root of "will":
From Middle English willen, wullen, wollen, from Old English willan, wyllan (“to will, be willing, wish, desire, be used to, to be about to”), from Proto-Germanic *wiljaną (“to desire, wish”), from Proto-Indo-European *wel(h₁)- (“to choose, wish”).
or From Middle English wille, from Old English willa (“mind, will, determination, purpose, desire, wish, request, joy, delight, pleasure”) (compare verb willian), from Proto-Germanic *wiljô (“desire, will”), from Proto-Indo-European *welh₁- (“to choose, wish”).
this *welH supposingly of some kind of lenition of the **(s)H/kwel root; so this "ibila" could mean "heir" as perhaps the "chosen one".
Finally, another word which is thought by some to be connected to "ibila" is Gr. φίλος philos "beloved, friend"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CE%AF%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
maybe is connected to some older hypothetical root meaning perhaps "choose, select, love"
**(s)H/kw(h?)el?
this *welH supposingly of some kind of lenition of the **(s)H/kwel root; so this "ibila" could mean "heir" as perhaps the "chosen one".
Yes, very nice ! :) .
maybe is connected to some older hypothetical root meaning perhaps "choose, select, love"
**(s)H/kw(h?)el?
Yeah :D .
My greetings for Christmas :) .
Hi Nirjhar, φίλε μου ("my friend") :D
There is also a Sumerian word guli [FRIEND] (91x: ED IIIb, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. gu5-li; gu-li; gu7-li "friend, comrade" Akk. ibru (I think we have mentioned it before - or not?)
According to CAD ibru (ebru) = "a person of the same status or profession, comrade, fellow, colleague, friend; from OA, OB on ... "the word denotes an institutionalized relationship between free persons of the same status or profession which entailed acceptance of the same code of behavior and an obligation of mutual assistance." ibrutu (ebrutu, ebarutu) = "relationship between persons of the same status or profession. 2. alliance 3. collegium (nam.ku.li = ibrutu).
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=25&language=id
Also kulili [COLLEAGUE] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. ku-li-li "colleague" Akk. itbaru.
Maybe this gul- or kul- is from this **kwel / **gwel- like root :D
Also, the word for "Hebrew" is "ibritu"
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=3762&language=id
there is also Akkad. "ubāru [U.BAR] : a foreign resident / guest , an immigrant , a visitor ; note : this word sounds like "Hebrew".
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=ub%C4%81ru&language=rawakkadian
Thanks for the wishes for Christmas :)
Maybe this gul- or kul- is from this **kwel / **gwel- like root :D
Yes ! :D .
there is also Akkad. "ubāru [U.BAR] : a foreign resident / guest , an immigrant , a visitor ; note : this word sounds like "Hebrew".
I agree :) .
Hi Nirjhar,
The labio-velar is found also in the root of Gr. ἐθέλω (ethélō) or θέλω (thélō) "I am willing, I wish; I want" etc
From Proto-Indo-European *h₁gʷʰel-. Cognates include Old Church Slavonic желѣти (želěti).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%90%CE%B8%CE%AD%CE%BB%CF%89
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3De)qe%2Flw
I think it seems almost the same root with the assumed one above. :)
Hesychius has also a word in phal-, most probably from the same root: φαλίζει: θέλει [phalizei = thelei = "he/she is willing"] (gʷʰ > th- / gʷʰ > ph-)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*f%3Aentry+group%3D4%3Aentry%3Dfali%2Fzei
I think it seems almost the same root with the assumed one above. :)
Yes , I think so Kyriakos :) .
This phal- reminded me of Skrt. phala "fruit, gain, product, profit, reward, consquence, blade" etc:
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=phala&direct=au
Mayrhofer has is root as *pʰal/pʰar; mentioning also Sieb's Law
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siebs%27_law
he states that it could be from *spʰel < *s-bʰel (like in folium, phyllon, blossom etc)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CF%8D%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%BD
the relation beteween som s mobil and a possible initial laryngeal is not clear to me, but Skrt. phala reminds me of a Gr. word ὀφείλω (opheílō) "I owe" etc
From Proto-Indo-European *h₃bʰel-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%80%CF%86%CE%B5%CE%AF%CE%BB%CF%89
Also, there is ὀφέλλω (ophéllō) "to increase, enlarge, elevate, strengthen"
Probably related to ὄφελος (óphelos, “advantage”), ὀφείλω (opheílō, “owe”);or From Proto-Indo-European *bhelyō. Cognates include Armenian աւել (awel).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%80%CF%86%CE%AD%CE%BB%CE%BB%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
It must be some root about increasing; maybe also connected to the previous root(s) about gathering, assembling, summoning, willing, purchasing / selling, profit etc also the notions about kinship, friendship etc; I'm not sure if all these notions can be connected though.
Skrt. phala reminds me of a Gr. word ὀφείλω (opheílō) "I owe" etc
From Proto-Indo-European *h₃bʰel-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%80%CF%86%CE%B5%CE%AF%CE%BB%CF%89
Also, there is ὀφέλλω (ophéllō) "to increase, enlarge, elevate, strengthen"
Probably related to ὄφελος (óphelos, “advantage”), ὀφείλω (opheílō, “owe”);or From Proto-Indo-European *bhelyō. Cognates include Armenian աւել (awel).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%80%CF%86%CE%AD%CE%BB%CE%BB%CF%89#Ancient_Greek .
Yes, I agree with you :) .
It must be some root about increasing; maybe also connected to the previous root(s) about gathering, assembling, summoning, willing, purchasing / selling, profit etc also the notions about kinship, friendship etc; I'm not sure if all these notions can be connected though.
Possible , yes :) .
About Gr. ὀφείλω (opheílō, “owe”), there is an Akkadian word which seems also close:
ḫabālu (3) "1) to be in debt ; 2) to get into debt , to borrow from"
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=%E1%B8%ABab%C4%81lu+%283%29&language=rawakkadian
True! :) .
There is also another Akkadian word ḫabālu:
ḫabālu (1) 1) MB,NA : an act of violence , wrong-doing / a misdeed ; 2) NA : feminine plural : wrongs , injustices , misdeeds ;
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=10115&language=id
ḫabālu (2) (vb. i/i, OB a/u) G. to treat injustly, to use violence D = G
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=1067&language=id
about "wrongdoing" etc; acoording to CAD is probably connected to the one about "owe, debt"; this other ḫabālu reminds me a Gr. verb (with an s initial) σφᾰ́λλω (sphállō) "to topple, overthrow; to kill; to baffle"
From Proto-Indo-European *(s)gʷʰh₂el-.[1]
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%86%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%BB%CF%89
(similar - or even same- root here, too).
this other ḫabālu reminds me a Gr. verb (with an s initial) σφᾰ́λλω (sphállō) "to topple, overthrow; to kill; to baffle"
Yeah :) .
ḫabālu "to wrong" here:
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=4222&language=id
in Sumerian these are translated as nam-gu "opression" (nam + gu = "neck" or "force") or dulum "misery, toil"; there is also Sum. gul [DESTROY] (518x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. gul; gu-ul "to destroy; to break; to flatten; to carve, cut; to engrave" Akk. abātu; hepû; naqāru; sapānu; (we have talked about it before; btw it looks also like guli "friend").
The closest IE root for "destroy" in this case I think is *h₁elh₃-[1]
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%83elh%E2%82%81-
Gr. apollymi was also connected with Appolon, as a god-destroyer; certainly all these the roots look close, for some reason.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CF%80%CF%8C%CE%BB%CE%BB%CF%85%CE%BC%CE%B9#Ancient_Greek
Latin aboleo (ab + oleo) is also interesting, because oleo means also "increase" etc
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/aboleo#Latin
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oleo#Latin
root h₂el- (imperfective) "to grow, nourish"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82el-
(reminding Gr. ophello for "increasing" etc)
Indeed, very interesting observations :) .
The notion about "growing" reminds also (especially in its writing as gu-ul or ku-ul) Sum. gal, wr. gal; gu-la; gu-ul; gal-gal; ku-ul "(to be) big, great; (to be) retired, former; (to be) mature (of male animals)"
I am wondering though, why this similarity... I remembered also *h₁lewdʰ- "to grow" of Lat. liber etc (though the laryngeal here is H1 instead of H2 or H3 :D )...
The notion about "growing" reminds also (especially in its writing as gu-ul or ku-ul) Sum. gal, wr. gal; gu-la; gu-ul; gal-gal; ku-ul "(to be) big, great; (to be) retired, former; (to be) mature (of male animals)"
Yes :) .
I am wondering though, why this similarity... I remembered also *h₁lewdʰ- "to grow" of Lat. liber etc (though the laryngeal here is H1 instead of H2 or H3 :D )...
:D .
:D the issue of libir/nigir - nagara/agara is not solved yet; also why in Greek we have mega/megalo for "big, great" :D
:D the issue of libir/nigir - nagara/agara is not solved yet; also why in Greek we have mega/megalo for "big, great" :D
We will conquer IMO :) .
Today's comparison / assumption is about "priesthood", "prophecy" etc:
Sum. gudug [PRIEST] (829x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian, unknown) wr. gudug; gudux(|HI×NUN|) "a priest" Akk. pašīšu. At Foxvog's Glossary gudu4(g) (an ordinary kind of priest, conventionally translated lustration or purification priest) (the older rdg. gúda is still seen) (pašīšu)
The comparison is to words like Gr. κῦδος (kûdos) "renown", Skrt. kavi "poet, sage, prophet", Sl. cud "miracle" etc:
From Proto-Indo-European *(s)kewh₁- (“to perceive, pay attention”). Cognate with κοέω (koéō), Latin caveō, Sanskrit कवि (kaví, “wise, poet, seer, sage”), Lithuanian kavoti (“safeguard, tend”), Old Armenian ցուցանեմ (cʿucʿanem, “I show”), Polish cześć (“glory”) and cud (“miracle”)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%E1%BF%A6%CE%B4%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
In Greek, from the same root there are words like κοιόλης koioles "priest" (at Hesychius");
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkoio%2Flhs
Also κοίης koies or κόης koes "priest in the mysteries of Samothrace" (At Hesychius, who also has κοιᾶται: ἱερᾶται koiatai = hieratai ("he is a priest"), κοιώσατο: ἀφιερώσατο, καθιερώσατο ["koiosato = aphierosato, kathierosato" "he is consacrated / dedicated"]
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*k%3Aentry+group%3D135%3Aentry%3D*koi%2Fhs
With an initial "s" there is also in Gr. θυοσκόος thyoskoos "sacrificing priest" (thyo-skoos; θύω thyo means "to sacrifice")
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dquosko%2Fos
Also Κοῖος Koios (Coeus in Latin) in Greek mythology is the Titan of intelligence, prophecy and farsight, of oracles etc:
https://www.greek-gods.org/titans/coeus.php
That's a very nice proposal to start Christmas day! :D .
:D yes, I thought also about that :) certainly the Akkadian equivalent pašīšu has to do with massih etc (Messiah) "annointment", the "cleansed one", look also here:
https://books.google.gr/books?id=JEeRAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=gudu+priest+anoint&source=bl&ots=H6dwKmdFn2&sig=XfFvWrZPdMKgnLqMaFPMlQJfe68&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjQuM6q5KTYAhXKIpoKHYMUAeEQ6AEIMTAC#v=onepage&q=gudu%20priest%20anoint&f=false
"anointment" has to do with kings and priests, so here is about priests; if gudu(g) though is etymologically connected with that notion of anointment is not clear ("not clear etymology"); at the beginning I thought about Gr. kotharos "clean" (we were talked about it about Sum. gub for "clean" I think); but then I decided to give this suggestion, which seems to be closer to priesthood. :)
It is true though that it is written as HIxNUN (= gudux) or HIxNUN.ME = gudug (HIxNUN is used as umun3/amun "insect", eh = "insect", ah "spittle, poison etc (preceded by the sign "a" for water)", also "uh / ah" "turtle"; also me, wr. me = "Being, divine properties enabling cosmic activity; office; (cultic) ordinance" Akk. mû; parşu.
"anointment" has to do with kings and priests, so here is about priests; if gudu(g) though is etymologically connected with that notion of anointment is not clear ("not clear etymology"); at the beginning I thought about Gr. kotharos "clean" (we were talked about it about Sum. gub for "clean" I think); but then I decided to give this suggestion, which seems to be closer to priesthood. :)
Yes, I agree .
It is true though that it is written as HIxNUN (= gudux) or HIxNUN.ME = gudug (HIxNUN is used as umun3/amun "insect", eh = "insect", ah "spittle, poison etc (preceded by the sign "a" for water)", also "uh / ah" "turtle"; also me, wr. me = "Being, divine properties enabling cosmic activity; office; (cultic) ordinance" Akk. mû; parşu.
Yup.
Another possible comparison is the one between Sum. gudu(g) with Hebrew qodesh "apartness, sacredness" http://biblehub.com/hebrew/6944.htm
also with other Semitic types:
Q-D-Š is a triconsonantal Semitic root meaning "sacred, holy", derived from a concept central to ancient Semitic religion. From a basic verbal meaning "to consecrate, to purify", it could be used as an adjective meaning "holy", or as a substantive referring to a "sanctuary, sacred object, sacred personnel."[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q-D-%C5%A0
Bernal also has compared Gr. kudos with Hebr. kodesh etc:
https://books.google.gr/books?id=BcZuf-piTMwC&pg=PA142&lpg=PA142&dq=quds+etymology&source=bl&ots=Uy8-iK3mx1&sig=dT0eEk-2fD-3YtBf1x9pLV_N3iE&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjOvoji_aXYAhVIDJoKHfreBkcQ6AEIczAI#v=onepage&q=quds%20etymology&f=false
I think that the Semitic and the IE root perhaps could be connected, maybe through a notion of "apartness, pay attention (to something apart), also for priests, soothsayers etc.
One can notice also that gudu(g) is a kind of KT(K) root :D
with an initial s also looks close to sukud(r), (also with du- perhaps like dugud) etc ....
Frisk mentions in his etymology about kudos, more precisely about κυδρός kudros "famous", one "risky / bold hypothesis [ eine "gewagte Vermutung"] of Wackernagel to iranian Σύδροι Sudroi, a people of Arachosia(literally *"the famous ones"), also to śūdrá- ‘members 0f the 4th cast’.
I think that the Semitic and the IE root perhaps could be connected, maybe through a notion of "apartness, pay attention (to something apart), also for priests, soothsayers etc.
One can notice also that gudu(g) is a kind of KT(K) root :D
with an initial s also looks close to sukud(r), (also with du- perhaps like dugud) etc ....
Yes :) .
Frisk mentions in his etymology about kudos, more precisely about κυδρός kudros "famous", one "risky / bold hypothesis [ eine "gewagte Vermutung"] of Wackernagel to iranian Σύδροι Sudroi, a people of Arachosia(literally *"the famous ones"), also to śūdrá- ‘members 0f the 4th cast’.
I also consider this a valid suggestion Kyriakos ! :) .
I share also the same opinion, Nirjhar :) Maybe it is connected also to a notion of "guard", "take care" or "setting apart"; there is a Gr. word κοῖον or κώϊον (koion) (from *κόϝ-ιον kow-ion) "pledge", a cognate of Latin caveo (= "I beware, avoid, take care; I am aware of; guard against, prevent; (law) I take care for, order, decree, stipulate; (with ab) I procure bail or surety from; I make someone secure by bail or surety; pledge") https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/caveo
sukud(r) on the other hand is about a notion of "highness" (Halloran has also "depth") and this writing HI.NUN of gudu(g) is from HI = "mixed up" and NUN = "noble, prince" (Halloran has also "rise up"); the combination, as a sign (umun3), means "insect, louse, flea", maybe because of a meaning of a multitude of creatures on one's head (top, high); it is supposed that this sign for insect, combined with "me" ("me" could mean also "wash") means "cleansed from louse"; yet, maybe, in the case of priests, it could mean just a high rank or position, I think (which fits well for priests etc).
Maybe it is connected also to a notion of ...
Yes, I think so :) .
maybe because of a meaning of a multitude of creatures on one's head (top, high); it is supposed that this sign for insect, combined with "me" ("me" could mean also "wash") means "cleansed from louse"; yet, maybe, in the case of priests, it could mean just a high rank or position, I think (which fits well for priests etc).
:D .
"kave-" was also used for priest / priestess in ancient Lydia (perhaops an Iranian loanword):
https://books.google.gr/books?id=gOOlOLXkJZcC&pg=PA87&lpg=PA87&dq=kaves+lydian&source=bl&ots=IV3K_Cgeeb&sig=LhF1UJ0wWUdMjK0lpu68hpL4ANw&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjyisDHp6fYAhXra5oKHX6oBe8Q6AEINTAD#v=onepage&q=kaves%20lydian&f=false
https://books.google.gr/books?id=xtsUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA66&lpg=PA66&dq=kaves+lydian&source=bl&ots=ZwUMMADgOg&sig=xqXyrkAWfNKmv6TDOinUDUZQnZ8&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjyisDHp6fYAhXra5oKHX6oBe8Q6AEIMDAC#v=onepage&q=kaves%20lydian&f=false
Frisk in the lemma about koion "pledge" mentions also a comparison of Bochart (Lewy Fremdw. 258) with Hebrew kōhēn "priest"; so one wonders, if the root was (s)kew(h?)-[d(r)-os] or alternatively (s)kew(h?)-[n]-os]
ToB thinks of an etymological connectio with the root of "know"
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=2636&root=config
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2feura%2fglobet&text_number=+139&root=config
Frisk mentions also a Macedonian word κοι̃ος = ἀριθμός koios = arithmos "number" (Ath. 10, 455e; maked.; eig. "Kenner" ("the one that knows").
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2358462&redirect=true
"(Athenaeus[47] when talking about Koios, the Titan of intelligence; and the Macedonians use koios as synonymous with arithmos (LSJ: koeô mark, perceive, hear koiazô pledge, Hes. compose s.v. κοίασον, σύνθες)"
"kave-" was also used for priest / priestess in ancient Lydia (perhaops an Iranian loanword):
Of course! :) .
Hebrew kōhēn "priest"; so one wonders, if the root was (s)kew(h?)-[d(r)-os] or alternatively (s)kew(h?)-[n]-os]
Yes :) .
Frisk mentions also a Macedonian word κοι̃ος = ἀριθμός koios = arithmos "number" (Ath. 10, 455e; maked.; eig. "Kenner" ("the one that knows").
I see .
Sorry, the last one from here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language
or maybe we should put this "root" together as **(s)ke(uh?)-[(n)d-[r-os] as a kind of TK/KT and ken type roots (probably not) :D
yet, there is also a word κοία = σφαῖρα koia = sphaira "sphere" (reminding of kanduka):
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkoi%2Fa
or maybe we should put this "root" together as **(s)ke(uh?)-[(n)d-[r-os] as a kind of TK/KT and ken type roots (probably not) :D
yet, there is also a word κοία = σφαῖρα koia = sphaira "sphere" (reminding of kanduka):
! :D , why not? :) .
:D why not indeed... "knowledge" implies some secrecy, some attention, some keeping (not to say about hearing and showing); at least in case of *ken (for kanda, kanduka etc) we have also a possible derivation (as Starostin has suggested) from *gen ('to pinch, press together, etc.'); we have discussed about this ken-/kan-d, gen-/gan-d equation before. :)
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0565
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0908
for koia "sphere" perhaps there is also *keu- "to bend"
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0953
"knowledge" implies some secrecy, some attention, some keeping (not to say about hearing and showing); at least in case of *ken (for kanda, kanduka etc) we have also a possible derivation (as Starostin has suggested) from *gen ('to pinch, press together, etc.'); we have discussed about this ken-/kan-d, gen-/gan-d equation before. :)
Yup! :) .
for koia "sphere" perhaps there is also *keu- "to bend"
True :) .
It's also interesting that Latin nobilis "noble, high-born; distinct, famous, celebrated" is from the root of "know"; from Latin nosco "I know, recognize, am acquainted with, i.e.; in possession of knowledge" From earlier gnōscō, from Proto-Italic *gnōskō, from Proto-Indo-European *ǵn̥h₃sḱéti. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nosco#Latin
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nobilis#Latin
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/%C7%B5neh%E2%82%83-
So, about the writing of gudu(g) as HI.NUN maybe it could be related to *ǵneh₃[-un?] > Hnewn? (H < ǵ from a kind of lenition?) :D
So, about the writing of gudu(g) as HI.NUN maybe it could be related to *ǵneh₃[-un?] > Hnewn? (H < ǵ from a kind of lenition?) :D
Possible! :D .
:D ;) This HI.NUN gave me another idea for the crazy suggestion of tonight: it's about Sum. henun [PLENTY] (22x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. he-nun; he2-nun "plenty"; I think there is a similarity to this IE root: *gʷʰen- (“to flourish, be full, swell, abound”); maybe because of a similar lenition; or rather maybe of a "h" spelling as "kh/hh < gʷʰ]
*gʷhen-1 "to swell, abound
Derivatives gʷhono-s `üppig, reichlich' ['oppulent, abundant']
Material Ai. ā-haná- `schwellend, strotzend, üppig' [swelling, full of, oppulent'], ghaná- `dicht, dick' ['dense, thick'], m. `kompakte Masse' [compact mass]; npers. ā-gandan `anfüllen', āganiš `voll' ['full']; arm. yogn `multum' (Prap. i + *o-gʷhon- oder *o-gʷhno-, im Präfix o- dem ar. ā-nächststehend); gr. εὐθενής [eu-thenes] `reichlich, in Fülle' ['abundant, in full', Hes. εὐθενέω eu-theneo `gedeihe' [to prosper, thrive], εὐθένεια `Fülle, blühender Zustand' [abundance, profusion], dehnstufig ion. εὐθηνής eu-theenes` reichlich, in Fülle' [ample, in full], ion. att. εὐθηνέω eu-theeneo` gedeihe, bin in Blüte und Kraft' [to prosper, to thrive], εὐθηνία f. `Fülle' f ; o-stufig Πολυφόντης = Πολυκτήτης [Polyphontes = Polyktetes], Κλεοφόντης, usw., red.-stufig φανᾆν · θέλειν Hes. [phanan = thelein 'to want'], wohl eigentlich `geil sein' [in the reality = 'to be lecherous / lascivious']; lit. ganà `genug' ['enough'], ganė́ti `genügen' [to be enough, sufficient], gandė́ti `genug haben' ['to have enough'], lett. gana `genug' ['enough']; aksl. gonějetъ, goněti `genügen', Denomin. von *gona = lit. ganà; ob hierher gr. ἄφενος [aphenos], ἄφνος n. [aphnos] `reichlicher Vorrat, Reichtum' ["wealth], ἀφνειός `begütert' [aphneios "rich"] (φ und der Vokalvorschlag aus der vokallosen Form (α)φν- oder *sm̥-gʷh(e)n-?), auch παρ-θένος `Jungfrau' (leibliche Fülle?)?
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0752
Also, in ToB:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=++1757&root=config
Skr. ghana here:
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=ghana&direct=au
Also Αhanas- here:
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=ahanas&direct=au
(This *gʷʰen- looks like the other *gʷʰen- for "killing"; also Myrhofer is not very much optimistic about the comparisons of this root.)
Sum. henun [PLENTY] (22x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. he-nun; he2-nun "plenty"; I think there is a similarity to this IE root: *gʷʰen- (“to flourish, be full, swell, abound”); maybe because of a similar lenition; or rather maybe of a "h" spelling as "kh/hh < gʷʰ]
Very good! :) .
(This *gʷʰen- looks like the other *gʷʰen- for "killing"; also Myrhofer is not very much optimistic about the comparisons of this root.)
I see.
If you noticed, Hesychius, apart from a phal- we already have mentioned, has also a phan- (from this root *gʷʰen-) for "I want" θέλω thelo (or ethelo):
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dfana%2Fw
There is also (at "h" letter") a hibira [SON] wr. hibira "son" Akk. māru; also hibiz [HEIR] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. hibiz2 "heir" Akk. aplu (this latter seems definately like "ibiza", so I think the probability of a "thorn cluster" there is high...)
If you noticed, Hesychius, apart from a phal- we already have mentioned, has also a phan- (from this root *gʷʰen-) for "I want" θέλω thelo (or ethelo):
Yes .
There is also (at "h" letter") a hibira [SON] wr. hibira "son" Akk. māru; also hibiz [HEIR] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. hibiz2 "heir" Akk. aplu (this latter seems definately like "ibiza", so I think the probability of a "thorn cluster" there is high...)
Yes, I think so :) .
I was thinking that, since phthisis / psisis "loss, destruction" (which I have compared to Sum. ibiza "loss" etc) is from *dgʷhey-
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=1607&root=config
which seems to be related to gʷʰen- "strike, kill"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/g%CA%B7%CA%B0en-
(for example φθίσις phthisis looks like φόνος phonos "murder" in Greek - and θείνω theino "to strike")
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CF%8C%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
Then it is possible that the other gʷʰen- for "swelling, flourishing" etc to have "its own" TK thorn cluster, like *dgʷhey- or a similar **dgʷh-, so we could have also ibiz for "heir" with some meaning of abundance, swell, prosper, blossoming etc.
Then it is possible that the other gʷʰen- for "swelling, flourishing" etc to have "its own" TK thorn cluster, like *dgʷhey- or a similar **dgʷh-, so we could have also ibiz for "heir" with some meaning of abundance, swell, prosper, blossoming etc.
I see :) .
I meant Sum. "hibiz". Also Skrt. phal- (when we talked about ibila etc) was about blossoming etc. Also the world "swell-" is of unknown origin: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/swellan%C4%85
In Greek also a word which looks like φόνος phonos is φθόνος phthonos "envy, jealousy, malice, grudge, ill will", of the some root *dgʷhey of destruction (here "inner" destruction; though wikipedia says "of unknown etymology":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CE%B8%CF%8C%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%82
since a word ἄφθονος aphthonos (a-phthonos) means "without envy: I.act. free from envy,2.ungrudging, bounteous, Lat. benignus, II.pass. not grudged, bounteously given, plentiful, abundant" etc
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Da)%2Ffqonos
I understand :) .
About Sum. henun, I think that a Hebrew word looks comparable: hon "wealth, sufficiency", "cheaply* (1), enough (2), possession (1), riches (4), substance (1), wealth (17)."
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/1952.htm
Yet I haven't found anything about the Nostratic comparisons of both Hebr. "hon" or *gʷʰen :/
This of course reminds Sanskrit ''dhana n. the prize of a contest or the contest itself (lit. a running match , race , or the thing raced for ; %{hita4M} %{dhA7nam} , a proposed prize or contest ; %{dhanaM-ji} , to win the pñprize or the fight) RV. ; booty , prey (%{dhanam-bhR} A1. , to carry off the prize or booty) RV. AV. ; any valued object , (esp.) wealth , riches , (movable) property , money , treasure , gift RV. &c. &c. ; capital (opp. to %{vRddhi} interest) Ya1jn5. ii , 58 ; = %{go-dhana} Hariv. 3886 ; (arithm.) the affirmative quantity or plus (opp. to %{RNa} , %{kSaya} , %{vyaya} , %{hAni}) ; N. of the 2nd mansion Var. ; m. N. of a merchant HParis3. Sin6ha7s.''
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=dhana&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
Very interesting! ;)
Do you think that dhana is from *dhē- as ToB states?
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=1916&root=config
Possible :).
In Gr. εὐθηνέω eu-thēneō "to thrive, flourish, prosper". which Pokorny says it is also from *gʷʰen, has a long ē like in *dhē:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Deu)qhne%2Fw
but it would be interesting if there was a *gʷʰe-n > dhen- derivation of roots!
but it would be interesting if there was a *gʷʰe-n > dhen- derivation of roots!
Yes, I was exactly thinking this! :D .
"hon" means also "capital" in Hebrew:
http://context.reverso.net/translation/hebrew-english/%D7%94%D7%95%D7%9F
Also a thorn cluster about "set, put" could be *tk'ey (for dwelling etc):
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=1604&root=config
Of course the long "e" is in *tk(')ēy- (to possess, to acquire)
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=1605&root=config
(we return again to the same things, I'm afraid...:D )
(we return again to the same things, I'm afraid...:D )
haha :D .
Meanwhile, Gr. ἄφενος "revenue, riches, wealth, abundance" is from the same root *gʷʰen according to Pokorny (with a prothetic a-); others, though, think of a derivation from the root of Latin op- (< *h₃ep-)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Da)%2Ffenos
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%83ep-
Here we have Skrt. apnas:
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=apnas&direct=au
fitting well to aphenos (there is also ἄφνειος aphneios "rich, wealthy" etc)
The problem here is the ph < gwh-, while the p of apnas is ...well, just p (not ph-). :D
True .
As you know, I tend to believe though that roots like Hk, or Hp are from some HKS- HPS- clusters...
Yeah :) .
I think that, if your suggestion about dh < gwh- is right, then, at the case of the comparison of Gr. theos (from dʰéh₁s) to Sum teš "pride", Akk. "bāštu", being also supposingly connected to "festus", from the same root), this "festus" could be rather directly from gwh- (like for example "furnus" is from *gwher-) than from a dh- (Giacomo would kill us :D )
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/festus#Latin
Giacomo would kill us :D
He is nonviolent ! :D .
I think that, if your suggestion about dh < gwh- is right, then, at the case of the comparison of Gr. theos (from dʰéh₁s) to Sum teš "pride", Akk. "bāštu", being also supposingly connected to "festus", from the same root), this "festus" could be rather directly from gwh- (like for example "furnus" is from *gwher-) than from a dh-
Yup :) .
Also, the city of Phaistos in Crete could mean just "setting", like "established" (with a < **gwha-ist ).
Obviously, the best candidate for a **dhen < *gʷʰen- (“to kill”) is θνῄσκω (thnḗiskō) - [same root with θάνατος thanatos "death"] "I die; (aorist and perfect) I am dead (serves as passive of κτείνω (kteínō, “kill”) to be killed"
Traditionally compared to Sanskrit अध्वनीत् (á-dhvanī-t, “he disappeared”), ध्वान्त (dhvān-tá-, “dark”), from Proto-Indo-European *dʰwenh₂- (“to die”). However, Beekes doubts this, on the basis of the zero-grade forms, which would then be *θυνεῖν, *θύνατος.
LIV² reconstructs Proto-Indo-European *dʰn̥h₂-sḱé-, from Proto-Indo-European *dʰenh₂- (“to set oneself in motion, to take off”), comparing the word with Sanskrit धन्वति (dhánvati, “to flow”), Tocharian A tsnāntär (“to flow”), but the semantic connection is weak.
Others refer to Proto-Indo-European *gʷʰn̥h₂-, from Proto-Indo-European *gʷʰen- (“to kill”), from which come θείνω (theínō, “slay”), φόνος (phónos, “murder”), and φᾰτός (phatós, “slain”).
In any case, the second part is the inchoative suffix -σκω (-skō).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B8%CE%BD%E1%BF%84%CF%83%CE%BA%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
Also, the city of Phaistos in Crete could mean just "setting", like "established" (with a < **gwha-ist ).
Yes! .
A **dhen < *gʷʰen- (“to kill”) fits also to Sum. ten [EXTINGUISH] (74x: Old Babylonian) wr. te-en; ten "to extinguish" Akk. belû.
A **dhen < *gʷʰen- (“to kill”) fits also to Sum. ten [EXTINGUISH] (74x: Old Babylonian) wr. te-en; ten "to extinguish" Akk. belû.
Yes :) .
What about *dʰew- (die), *dʰew- (run, flow)?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/d%CA%B0ew-
Interesting :) .
Another candidate is bʰeh₂- "shine, glow", also bʰeh₂ "speak, say" (from some **gʷʰ- >, like Sum. gu "voice, cry, noise" - there is also teš "voice"; also gunu "multicoloured, speckled" etc)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/b%CA%B0eh%E2%82%82-
I agree :) .
About Sum hibira "son" today I was thinking about Gr. ἔφηβος (éphēbos) "adolescent" < epi + ephebos > from ἥβη (hḗbē) "youth; vigour; pubes"; from Proto-Indo-European *yēgʷa- (“power, (youthful) strength”). Cognate with Latvian jēga.[1] [with gʷ> b, and a -ro ending]; not sure about that though; maybe it is derived from the other roots we were talking about.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%A5%CE%B2%CE%B7#Ancient_Greek
Nice :) .
hibza [~BREAD] (4x: Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. hi-ib-za; hi-ib-sa2 "a designation of breads" Akk. hibşu, must be also about "swelling" (like *gʷhen-1 ); since hibşu means "blister, bump"; also "a type of leavened bread / pastry:
http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=7185&language=id
https://books.google.gr/books?id=-qIuVCsRb98C&pg=PA115&lpg=PA115&dq=Akkadian++glossary+hibsu&source=bl&ots=BrbhxqRPEx&sig=IM_Opx_d-sheBhShwUILghzruxM&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjs5LmJvazYAhXIpaQKHSFuCEQQ6AEITTAF#v=onepage&q=Akkadian%20%20glossary%20hibsu&f=false
(looks like a PS cluster again)
(looks like a PS cluster again)
I think too :) .
Reminds of peš "thick" (etc)...
Yeah :) .
About a possible TK, Pokorny has a tegu "thick" (only celtic and German)
Air. tiug, cymr. corn. tew, bret. teo `dick'; aisl. þykkr, þjokkr, þjukkr `dick', ags. ðicce `dick, dicht', ahd. dicchi ds., as. thikki `ds., häufig'.
Of course there is also *tek for "bearing a child" (like Gr. teknon "child", also *k'eu "swell" (used also, like in Gr. κυέω kueo, for "bear a child") etc etc...
Maybe there are also other roots...
Of course .
It's funny that in Greek the common word for "bread" is ψωμί (psomi):
From Byzantine Greek ψωμίν (psōmín), from ψωμίον (psōmíon), from Ancient Greek ψωμός (psōmós), from the verb ψώω (psṓō), an alternative form of ψάω (psáō, “to touch lightly, to rub”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%88%CF%89%CE%BC%CE%AF
I don't think is from "swelling" though, but (probably) from a verb ψώω meaning "to rub" etc
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%88%CE%AC%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
It has been compared to Skrt. psAti "swallow, eat, consume, devour etc"
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=psati&direct=se
I see :) .
Maybe the TK here is in Sum. tukur "to gnaw" we have been talking about before...
Yes,
About Sum. hi [MIX] (2735x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian, unknown) wr. hi "to mix (up); process (skin; wool, in the latter possibly a stage between combing and spinning); alloy" Akk. balālu
I though about a possible comparison with *ǵʰew- "to pour"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/%C7%B5%CA%B0ew-
Though it could be better if compared with some "hu" or "gu", I think, instead of "hi"... Also the meaning "to pour" is not exactly "to mix"; though I think it could be close.
English "gut" from this root:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gut#English
Though it could be better if compared with some "hu" or "gu", I think, instead of "hi"... Also the meaning "to pour" is not exactly "to mix"; though I think it could be close.
English "gut" from this root:
Yes .
Again about Sum. haš [THIGH] (20x: Old Babylonian) wr. haš2; haš4 "lower body, abdomen; thigh" Akk. emšu [or enšu]; šapru; we have discussed about it at Giacomo's "multifarious connection" Sumerian post (enšu here) http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=373&language=id
I thought it could be compared to words like Gr. hystera or gaster about "womb". I think now that maybe there is also a connection to Hittite hāš-, hašš- ‘to give birth (to), to beget, to procreate’. Maybe the notion is about something "round" (belly, thigh etc).
I think there is also a similarity (especially concerning the Akkadian word) with the root of "shoulder" *h₃ém-s-o-s (I guess something round again):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%83%C3%A9m%C5%8Ds
Yes, practical! :) .
Nirjhar, I'm sure you'll be interested in this:
असुर • (ásura) m "spirit, good spirit, supreme spirit (said of Varuna); the chief of the evil spirits; an evil spirit, demon, ghost, opponent of the gods; name of Rāhu; the sun; cloud; (in the plural) name of a warrior-tribe; name of a Vedic school; zodiacal sign
Etymology[edit]
From Proto-Indo-Iranian *ásuras.
Related to असु (asu-), with several possible etymologies and meanings. In the context of asura conventionally associated with asu- in the sense of "master of the house". This meaning is not further narrowed by its etymology: cf. Avestan (ahu, “lord”) and (ahura, “lord”), Hittite 𒈗 (ḥaššū, “king”), and Latin erus (“lord”). Possibly ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *h₂ems- (“to engender, beget”). Compare Old Norse æsir.
The Brahmanas and the Puranas derive asura from another asu-, "breath", a cognate of which is found in Av. ahu1-, "life, existence". In yet other post-Vedic Sanskrit literature, asura was back-formed as a-sura, "non-sura", with sura then associated with a group of demi-gods who inhabit Indra's domain.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%B8%E0%A5%81%E0%A4%B0#Sanskrit
Indeed! :D .
The scholars have remarked also that ḥaššū, “king" in Hittite is connected to Hit. hāš-, hašš- ‘to give birth (to), to beget, to procreate’, just like the word "king" in English is connected with "kin" and ultimately with *ǵenh₁- "to beget, to procreate etc":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/king
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kin#English
But I am wondering if there is a connection between these two roots *ǵenh₁- and *h₂ems-.
! :O
:D These are my assumptions for today, Nirjhar: I was thinking about *teḱ "to beget" (like in "teknon" child) as the TK form; then a -/-KN/ or /-/-GN for *ǵenh and then ḥašš < H-n(or m)/s (/tḱey- is also connected)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/te%E1%B8%B1-https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/t%E1%B8%B1ey-
*Hes- (as a kind of HS < HK') for "to be" could be perhaps connected to the same root *He-m-s-. The meaning could be initially something like "swelling, grow" (like bʰuh₂- "to become, grow, appear")
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/b%CA%B0uH-
BTW, Whittaker has already connected this root *h₂ems- with Sum. henzir ‘infant, baby; (low social class)’ : *h2Ns-i-s < *h2Ms-i-s ‘offspring’ (cf. Luw. hamsa/i- ‘grandchild’ < *h2Ms-ó-s; Kloekhorst 2008: 323-324).[In ePSD: henzer [CHILD] (7x: Old Babylonian) wr. henzer "a low social class; small child; baby; (to be) babyish; weak" Akk. ašpaltu; la'û; lakû; šerru]
About the similar word for "shoulder" (*h₃ém-s-o-s), I think it could be connected to some "ken" root (meaning both round an sharp), like the one for knee (gonu), also to the hek (HK) for "sharp", the tig - TK "sharp" etc, maybe...
Also about haš [STONE] wr. [na4]haš2 "a stone", I noticed a Persian word آس (ās, “grinding stone”), from Hek' (like in English "edge" and German "Ecke").
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/edge#English
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