*Hes- (as a kind of HS < HK') for "to be" could be perhaps connected to the same root *He-m-s-. The meaning could be initially something like "swelling, grow" (like bʰuh₂- "to become, grow, appear")
I agree :D .
About the similar word for "shoulder" (*h₃ém-s-o-s), I think it could be connected to some "ken" root (meaning both round an sharp), like the one for knee (gonu), also to the hek (HK) for "sharp", the tig - TK "sharp" etc, maybe...
Yes! .
Also about haš [STONE] wr. [na4]haš2 "a stone", I noticed a Persian word آس (ās, “grinding stone”), from Hek' (like in English "edge" and German "Ecke").
The word humsirum [MOUSE] (1x: 1st millennium) wr. ha-mun-zi-lum "mouse" (Akk. humşīru) must follow a similar pattern (Hem-s-ro?); I remember that Sum. peš "mouse, rat, rodent" in Akkadian is also "humşīru", and peš means also thick, pregnant etc; so we must have also here a meaning of "swelling" (like a "fat, thick creature").
Another word in Greek that looks like ὦμος "shoulder" (ōmos < *h₃ém-s-o-s) is ὠμός (ōmós) m, "raw, crude, undressed;(of flesh) raw, uncooked, (figuratively) savage, fierce, cruel"; from Proto-Indo-European *h₃emós, *h₂eh₃mós. Cognates include Sanskrit आम (āmá), Old Armenian հում (hum, “raw”), and Irish amh. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%A0%CE%BC%CF%8C%CF%82#Ancient_Greek others (like Pokorny) say that Latin amarus "bitter" etc is from the same root: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/amarus Starostin has a different root for amarus etc, this one: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+830&root=config Proto-IE: *am-(r-) Nostratic etymology: Nostratic etymology Meaning: sour, tasting sharp Old Indian: amla- `sour, acid' Armenian: amokh `süss' Germanic: *ampr-a- adj., *ampr-ōn- f. Latin: amārus, -a `bitter; scharf, beissend, herb, verletzend' Albanian: ɛmbĺɛ `süss' http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+830&root=config which in Pokorny is together with *om-os (or *h₂eh₃mós) Anyway, the meaning could be again "sharp, bitter"; and maybe it's again from a kind of HH-m ?< HS-m < HK'-m (from "sharp", like f.e. in ἀκμή (akmḗ) f (ak-me "point, edge", look above). The reason I say all these is because I think there is a possible comparison with some "hum" and possible "gum" words in Sumerian (I mean like the Armenian cognate "hum", “raw”), of course not meaning "raw" in this case, but something bitter, sharp (even metaphorically) or "cut" (like Sum. gum [LAME] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. gum2 "(to be) lame" Akk. hunzû; hutenzû; huzzû) (fortition? g<h??). Halloran has also a meaning "cripple" for henzer: "henzer: weakling; cripple; infant.". Also there is Sum. hum [PARALYZE] (2x: Old Babylonian) wr. hum "to paralyze (bodies); a blood clot disease (stroke?)" Akk. hamû ša2 zumri; hurpi gig.
:D I think this is also interesting: Latin erus m (genitive erī) .. "master of the house or family": According to Pokorny, it comes from Proto-Indo-European *esu- (“good, able”) and thus suffered rhotacism. This would make it cognate with Ancient Greek ἐύς (eús, “good, able”), Avestan (ahu, “lord”) and (ahura, “lord”), Hittite 𒈗 (ḥaššū, “king”), Sanskrit असुर (asura, “spirit”) and Old Norse æsir.
A connexion with heres (“heir”) and hirudo (“leech”) has also been proposed by Charlton Lewis and Charles Short, making it stem instead from Proto-Indo-European *ǵʰeh₁ro- (“derelict”). Cognates would include Ancient Greek χήρα (khḗra, “widow”), हरति (harati, “to seize”) and हरण (haraṇa, “hand”)"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/erus#Latin
Comparison with Sum. ereš [LADY] (11x: ED IIIb, Ebla, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. ereš "lady, queen; a quality designation" Akk. bēltu "lady"; šarratum "queen". :D
There is also a Sum. era [LEADER] wr. era3 "leader (of the assembly)" Akk. mu'erru resembling a bit to another Gr. word for "assembly" > εἴρη eire ionic for ἀγορά agora "a place of assembly", epic gen. pl. εἰράων Il. (from ἐρῶ ero "I talk"). http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dei)%2Frh1
Akk. "mu'erru" is also the equivalent of Sum. kingal [OFFICIAL] (23x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Ebla, Old Babylonian) wr. kingal; kin-gal "grandee; crown authority over land, labor recruiter" Akk. mu'erru; rabû. (I think that the "kin-" in "kingal" fits also to some "ken" word assumed as connected to the above words of authorsip like asura, Hit. ḥaššū "king" etc in a way like "knee" supposingly is connected to h₃ém-s-o-s for "shoulder").
I think that the connection is probably to *k̑ens-'to announce, proclaim, speak formally': https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0919 since, according to J. Halloran is "kingal: commander, director (kiĝ, 'to order', + gal, 'big, great') [KINGAL archaic frequency: 39]; I think we have talked before about it in Giacomo's posts... also εἴρω (hence εἴρη eire "assembly" rtc) is about speaking "("say, speak, tell"): http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dei)%2Frw2
I remembered now our conversation one moth ago about kosmos, śaṃsati, again about notions of swelling, "round", sending and stretching etc :) http://njsaryablog.blogspot.gr/2017/04/indo-european-connections.html?commentPage=5
Halloran has a word kindagal or kindaĝal, "overseer of a group of (five) slaves", and if I remember well, Whittaker has said that this "kinda" is from the IE for "five" (he said it about the word for "barber", I think; yet I think it is some other "ken" word, as we have talked about - Halloran has also a word kindagal = "chief barber").
I remembered also about Whittaker's proposal about Sum. hazin "ax" and Gr. ἀξῑ́νη (axī́nē) " axe-head, axe" (Akkadian ḫaṣṣinnu) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CE%BE%CE%AF%CE%BD%CE%B7 I have to say, that in this case I think it is about a HTK > HKS word :D but Sumerian has also a haš [BATTLE-MACE] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. ĝešhaš "battle-mace" Akk. mašgašu, also haš [BREAK] (13x: ED IIIb, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. haš "to break off; to break; to divert (water)" Akk. haşābu; šebēru that could be (perhaps) simply from HK'... Well, I think so.
I have to say, that in this case I think it is about a HTK > HKS word :D but Sumerian has also a haš [BATTLE-MACE] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. ĝešhaš "battle-mace" Akk. mašgašu, also haš [BREAK] (13x: ED IIIb, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. haš "to break off; to break; to divert (water)" Akk. haşābu; šebēru that could be (perhaps) simply from HK'... Well, I think so.
Yes :) .
Halloran has haš, haz "break" etc, that's why I cannot decide between HS and HTK :/
About kiĝ [WORK] (1111x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. kiĝ2 "to work" I was thinking about a comparison with Gr. κᾰ́μνω (kámnō) "exert oneself, labour, work hard" from Proto-Indo-European *kem(H)- (“to be tired”).[1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%AC%CE%BC%CE%BD%CF%89
Pokorny includes also Indic reflexes (śamyati etc): Material Ai. śamnītē, śámati, śamyati, Imp. śamī̆-ṣva `sich mühen, arbeiten, zurichten, zubereiten', śamitá- `zubereitet', śamitár- `Zurichter, Zubereiter', śámī f., śámi n. `Bemühung. Werk, Fleiß' (śimyati = `śamyati', śima- m. `Zubereiter' sind durch das bedeutungsgleiche śímī `Fleiß' hervorgerufen); śāmyati `hört auf, läßt nach' aus `*ermüdet', Aor. aśamat, aśamīt; śāntá- `beruhigt, ruhig, sanft, mild' (*k̂emətós, wird seines ā halber in der Bed. näher mit śāmyati assoziiert);
Hi Nirjhar, Yes, but this *kem(H)- compared to Sum. kiĝ seems to indicate an -m < ĝ (as if from some "emesal" type m = ĝ), meaning it's an archaic root, coming from pre-IE (perhaps I'talking nonsense here :D ) The other kiĝ [SEEK] (108x: Old Babylonian) wr. kiĝ2 "to seek" Akk. pâru, must be connected, I think, also to kiĝ "to work"; and there is a Hittite word šanḫ- which is from IE *sen-H-, like Skt. sanóti ‘gain, achieve etc’ and Gk. ἀνύω [anyo] ‘achieve’; the word "authentic" < Gr. αὐθεντικός "authentikos" ("something from my own hand") < αὐθέντης < αὐτός autós, “self” + *ἕντης *héntēs, supposed from the same root: https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1689 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B1%E1%BD%90%CE%B8%CE%AD%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82#Ancient_Greek http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=sanoti&direct=se Obviously, as you have understood, this proposal assumes that *sen-H- is the satem form of some **kenH, connected to Sum. kiĝ (written also as KIN) and so the Gr. form is in the reality Indo-Greek :D.
The other kiĝ [SEEK] (108x: Old Babylonian) wr. kiĝ2 "to seek" Akk. pâru, must be connected
I agree :) .
Obviously, as you have understood, this proposal assumes that *sen-H- is the satem form of some **kenH, connected to Sum. kiĝ (written also as KIN) and so the Gr. form is in the reality Indo-Greek :D.
Hittite šanḫ- means "to seek, to strive" etc. I checked Pokorny's reflexes of this root, from here: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpokorny&text_number=1685&root=config About the above mentioned ἐντύω entyo, ἐντύ̄νω entyno `mache fertig, rüste zu, bereite' "to equip, deck out, get ready, prepare etc", from the same root (like the -entes of authentes, authentic etc) http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29ntu%3D%2Fnw&la=greek&can=e%29ntu%3D%2Fnw0#lexicon
Hesychius has a noun "ἔντυος = κόσμος" / "entyos = kosmos (order etc)" (kosmos < k'ens, we have compared with kiĝ in kinĝal). http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*e%3Aentry+group%3D130%3Aentry%3De%29%2Fntuos
Halloran (2006 ed.) also has: kiĝ2, kin: n., message, order; task, work; clay/brick work on a dam (ki, 'places', + a2 ... aĝa, 'to command'[KIN archaic frequency: 9]. v., to send orders, to seek, fetch (with locative-terminative -ni-); to prowl; to send; to order (reduplication class).
:D ;) ToB has also this root as *sen(w)- http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=2415&root=config meaning it is really an archaic root (IH is for Indo-Hittite, an old PIE or even pre-IE).
I think, Nirjhar, that a verb like Gr. ἀνύω anyo "to effect, achieve, accomplish, complete" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Da)nu%2Fw a reflex of this root, fits good for the last day of the year :) So, we have completed (ἠνύσαμεν eenyssamen :D ) hopefully this year and now we're seeking :D to expand a bit our little knowledge during the next one... I wish a Happy New Year 2018! :)
meaning it is really an archaic root (IH is for Indo-Hittite, an old PIE or even pre-IE).
Yes! :) .
I think, Nirjhar, that a verb like Gr. ἀνύω anyo "to effect, achieve, accomplish, complete" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Da)nu%2Fw a reflex of this root, fits good for the last day of the year :) So, we have completed (ἠνύσαμεν eenyssamen :D )
Yes,beautiful! :) .
hopefully this year and now we're seeking :D to expand a bit our little knowledge during the next one... I wish a Happy New Year 2018! :)
Of course Kyriakos! :D .Best wishes for 2018! :) .
:) So, let's begin this new year's striving ("šanḫ-") Nirjhar :D Indeed, the notion about "striving" made me think again about the *ken-4 root 'to strain, strive eagerly' (like in διάκονος diakonos "servant", "deacon" etc). https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0911 Maybe it is also connected to the kiĝ ("kin") root. Also I remembered the *ken root of rub, dust etc (we have been talking about this before) and the assumed *(s)k(w)en(d) (to fit Gr. σποδός spodos = κόνις konis "dust"); this made me think again the (s)kandha for "shoulder" (there is also a *ken for "neck" https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0908 ). I was thinking that, maybe, if *He-m-s- "beget" is connected ultimately with *ken and *genH for "beget", it's very possible for *He-m-s -(os) for "shoulder" to be connected to "ken" for "neck" and (s)kandha < **(s)k(w)en(d) "shoulder".
:) So, let's begin this new year's striving ("šanḫ-") Nirjhar :D
:D yup! .
Indeed, the notion about "striving" made me think again about the *ken-4 root 'to strain, strive eagerly' (like in διάκονος diakonos "servant", "deacon" etc).
I agree :) .
Maybe it is also connected to the kiĝ ("kin") root. Also I remembered the *ken root of rub, dust etc (we have been talking about this before) and the assumed *(s)k(w)en(d) (to fit Gr. σποδός spodos = κόνις konis "dust"); this made me think again the (s)kandha for "shoulder" (there is also a *ken for "neck"
Yes , very nice :) .
I was thinking that, maybe, if *He-m-s- "beget" is connected ultimately with *ken and *genH for "beget", it's very possible for *He-m-s -(os) for "shoulder" to be connected to "ken" for "neck" and (s)kandha < **(s)k(w)en(d) "shoulder".
"Shoulder" is connected to a notion of cut, blade (because of the shape of the bones, like in Lat. scapula). Sum. haš "break" (and gaz "kill") also seems quite close to Khotanese hatcan "break" mentioned by Mayrhofer in his lemma about kandha "shoulder" etc.
Also in Gr. σπάθη spathe "blade", one of the meanings is "shoulder blade" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%80%CE%AC%CE%B8%CE%B7 and I would say that a **skwe(n)dh could fit also to this case (dh/d as in kandha).
The "He-s" root for "dust" (korresponding to *ken etc, is of course the *h₂eHs- of "ash" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82eHs- while the "TK" is the one of Gr. τέφρα dʰegʷʰ- for burning etc. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CE%AD%CF%86%CF%81%CE%B1 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/d%CA%B0eg%CA%B7%CA%B0- For the roots about "work, striving" etc the "TK" must be again teḱ > tetḱ- (like in "technical" etc) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/tet%E1%B8%B1-
While haš [THIGH] (20x: Old Babylonian) wr. haš2; haš4 "lower body, abdomen; thigh" Akk. emšu; šapru must be the HeS of the connected root *tewk (perhaps from < *tewh₂-) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/tewk- Like in "thigh" etc :D
Thank you, Nirjhar :) I don't think it is just a coincidence, there must be a deeper connection between TK clusters, KN (or HM) roots etc (the basic idea is the **KwKw root of Speirs). And these is not just a matter of IE, must be widespread, as we have already seen. For example in Sum. eš [THREE] (16x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. eš5; eš-a-bi; eš10; am3-mu-uš "three; triplets" Akk. takšû "triplets"; šalāš "three", which is a word moist probably connected to Sum. peš = "thick, pregnant" etc, there is the TK in Akk. "takšû", also the Hms in Emesal am3-mu-uš (similar to Akk. emšu "thigh").
About the writing system etc, it's interesting that the sign kiĝ2 of kiĝ ("kin") = "seek", "work", "to be pointed" etc it's written with the KIN sign, which is the same of saga11 "to press?", and there is a IE ken root about "to pinch, to press": https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0908 Though a saga (SK) root reminds also the root of "seek" :D (sag-) I mean, there must be a connection with SK roots, too.
*kens could be also connected with some **(s)kwe-n-(d) root (like **skwen/skwen / **sken/sken > *kens/kens :D About the meaning of *ken "to pinch, to press", this could be connected to some **(s)kwen- again, probably because of a meaning "to stretch" like of **kwe-n > *ten; for example in pe-n-s like in *pinso "crush, grind" etc or in *tek / *tengh / *tenk "to span, extend; pull, stretch" or *tens with the same meaning (kw > p, kw > t, one can check these roots from here: https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master )
*kens could be also connected with some **(s)kwe-n-(d) root (like **skwen/skwen / **sken/sken > *kens/kens :D Yes :D .
About the meaning of *ken "to pinch, to press", this could be connected to some **(s)kwen- again, probably because of a meaning "to stretch" like of **kwe-n > *ten; for example in pe-n-s like in *pinso "crush, grind" etc or in *tek / *tengh / *tenk "to span, extend; pull, stretch" or *tens with the same meaning (kw > p, kw > t, one can check these roots from here: .
I've noticed in Kloekhorst's Hittite Lexcon a word ḫatk- ‘to shut, to close’, ḫatganu ‘to make tight, to put pressure on'(adj.) ḫatku / ḫatgau ‘tight, pressed, stressful' (As Kloekhorst says "the verb originally meant something like ‘to press together, to squeeze’". and it is compared to Gr. ἄχθομαι akthomai ‘to be burdened, to be depressed’, ἄχθος akhthos ‘pressure, burden’ we were talking before; so this must be the HTK root of the roots about pressing. :D
Finally, I've noticed also a Hittite word aniya-: to act, create, work, achieve; − to make grow (a plant) (id. KIN); aniyatt- (c., §76) : achievement, work (id. KIN-att-); Kloekhorst says aniyi-a ‘to work; to carry out, to produce, to treat’ (Sum. KIN), compared usually to Skrt. anas "heavy cart; mother; birth; offspring" and Latin onus "burden, load" < h₃enh₂- 'to onerate; to charge'; Pokorny Etymon: enos-, or onos- 'onus, burden': https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0488 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%83enh%E2%82%82- http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+232&root=config That I think must be the HN (?) type of the "pressing, burdened" roots.
I've also read at the Hittite Etymological Dictionary of Jaan Puhvel, that, according O. Szemerenyi, a form "anisk-" of this Hit. word aniya- (for work etc) was introduced in Gr. as "ask-", giving ἀσκέω (askéō) "to work (raw materials), form; to adorn, decorate, trick out; to honor, revere; to practice, exercise, train (often, but not always, of athletics):
Perhaps there is also a relation to ἀσκός (askós, “skin, hide”). And I thought that Sumerian ašgab [LEATHERWORKER] (631x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. ašgab "leatherworker" Akk. aškāpu, was maybe related to askos, in Giacomo's first post.
Perhaps there is also a relation to ἀσκός (askós, “skin, hide”). And I thought that Sumerian ašgab [LEATHERWORKER] (631x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. ašgab "leatherworker" Akk. aškāpu, was maybe related to askos, in Giacomo's first post.
Not sure, but about heše [OPPRESSED] (17x: Old Babylonian) wr. heš5še3; haš "(to be) oppressed; (to be) detained" Akk. habālu; kalû I have the impression that it could be also compared to Hit. ḫatk- ‘to shut, to close; to press" etc (maybe as ḫatk'-, if š < tk' - ?).
Also about Gr.*ἴπτομαι iptomai, fut. ἴψομαι ipsomai: aor. 1 ἰψάμην ipsameen:— "A.press hard, oppress" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Di)%2Fptomai maybe this is from some **< HKwT- (reversed) < **HTKw- (like ḫatk-) ; or maybe from some layer as HTKw > HKw (loss of the T of the thorn cluster), like perhaps in Gr. ἶπος ipos (neut. or fem.) A.the piece of wood that falls and catches the mouse, 2. any weight, fuller's press" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Di)%3Dpos (a word resembling Gr. "hippos" horse I assumed ultimately from some KT/TK word, like from Gr. ταχύς takhys "fast".
Also about Gr.*ἴπτομαι iptomai, fut. ἴψομαι ipsomai: aor. 1 ἰψάμην ipsameen:— "A.press hard, oppress" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Di)%2Fptomai maybe this is from some **< HKwT- (reversed) < **HTKw- (like ḫatk-) ; or maybe from some layer as HTKw > HKw (loss of the T of the thorn cluster), like perhaps in Gr. ἶπος ipos (neut. or fem.) A.the piece of wood that falls and catches the mouse, 2. any weight, fuller's press"
Yes I agree .
(a word resembling Gr. "hippos" horse I assumed ultimately from some KT/TK word, like from Gr. ταχύς takhys "fast".
Sorry Kyriakos, I deleted this comment by mistake :( :
''There is also a Hittite verb nini(n)k, according to Kloekhorst meaning ‘to mobilize, to set (people) in motion; to move, to transfer; to set in motion; (midd. and intr. act.); to behave in a disorderly manner; to disturb, to agitate’, most probably connected also to a notion of "raise, bear, burden" too: Proto-IE: *(e)nek'- Meaning: to bear Hittite: ninink- `heben, hochnehmen' Tokharian: A ents-, B enk- `nehmen, fassen' (PT *enk-, *enk-s-) (Adams 77-78) Old Greek: aor. pass. ēnékhthēn `wurde getragen', pf. katḗnoka (Hsch.), enḗnokha, med. enḗnegmai̯, aor. enenkẹ̄̂n `tragen'; óŋko-s m. `Masse, Last, Gewicht; Würde, Stolz, Prahlerei' Slavic: *nestī, *nesǭ; *-nosъ; *nosjā Baltic: *neč- (prs. *neč-a-) vb. tr., *nač-ā̂ f., *nač-t-ā̂ f., *nōč-ia- c. http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=++1327&root=config
which reminds me Sum. niĝin [ENCIRCLE] (214x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. niĝin2; niĝin "to prowl, roam; to enclose, confine; to encircle; to search; to turn; to return; to go around; to tarry" Akk. esēru; lawû; sahāru; târu; târu; sahāru; şâdu also niĝin [FETUS] (5x: ED IIIb, Ur III) wr. niĝin3 "fetus" Akk. kūbu''
which reminds me Sum. niĝin [ENCIRCLE] (214x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. niĝin2; niĝin "to prowl, roam; to enclose, confine; to encircle; to search; to turn; to return; to go around; to tarry" Akk. esēru; lawû; sahāru; târu; târu; sahāru; şâdu also niĝin [FETUS] (5x: ED IIIb, Ur III) wr. niĝin3 "fetus" Akk. kūbu''
You deleted also a suggestion about comparing henzer henzer [BLOCK] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. henzir "to block" Akk. pehû, also to Hit. ḫatk- ‘to shut, to close; to press" etc (maybe as ḫatk'- with an -n infix, resembling the *Hems- of the comparison with henzer "child", assumed to be connected with "ken" and TKN roots also.
:D About Kloekhorst nini(n)k though, Kloekhorst thinks appealing a comparison of Oettinger with Gr. νεῖκος (neîkos) "quarrel, wrangle, strife" and some other Baltic words: Perhaps from Proto-Indo-European *neik- (“to attack, start vehemently”) and cognate with Lithuanian ap-ni̇̀kti (“to attack”), su-ni̇̀kti (“to attack”), Latvian nikns (“bad, grim, vehement”), maybe also Russian в-никнуть (v-niknutʹ), про-никнуть (pro-niknutʹ). See also νίκη (níkē). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BD%CE%B5%E1%BF%96%CE%BA%CE%BF%CF%82 If you remember I have compared neikos with Sum. nig "female dog; lioness"; maybe more "nig" words share the same etymology.
About Kloekhorst nini(n)k though, Kloekhorst thinks appealing a comparison of Oettinger with Gr. νεῖκος (neîkos) "quarrel, wrangle, strife" and some other Baltic words: Perhaps from Proto-Indo-European *neik- (“to attack, start vehemently”) and cognate with Lithuanian ap-ni̇̀kti (“to attack”), su-ni̇̀kti (“to attack”), Latvian nikns (“bad, grim, vehement”), maybe also Russian в-никнуть (v-niknutʹ), про-никнуть (pro-niknutʹ). See also νίκη (níkē).
Yes :) .
If you remember I have compared neikos with Sum. nig "female dog; lioness"; maybe more "nig" words share the same etymology.
I'm wondering if this Gr. verb is somehow related to these word (as a kind of HK or SK ? root): "ἥκω (hḗkō) to have come, to be present; to have reached a point;(with an adverb followed by a genitive); to have come back, returned;(pleonastic, with a participle); (simply, like γίγνομαι (gígnomai)); (of things) to have come, to be brought; to concern, relate, belong to; to depend upon." https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%A5%CE%BA%CF%89
There is also another Hittite word nakki (adj.) ‘important, valuable; difficult, inaccesible; powerful’ (Sum. DUGUD); nakkiyah = ‘to be(come) a concerne to someone, to be difficult for someone; (part.) honoured, revered’; nakkiyatar / nakkiyan (n.) ‘dignity, importance; esteem; power; difficulty’ (Sum. DUGUD-atar); nakkē ‘to be honoured, to be important; to be difficult, to be an obstacle’ nakkešš which Kloekhorst says it was xonnected by Sturtevant (1930c: 215) connected with Hitt. nini(n) ‘to set in motion’ and the *h2nek' root. Kloekhorst says that "this view is widely followed, but semantically this etymology is difficult. The root *h2nek' denotes ‘to seize, to carry’. If this were the ancestor of Hitt. nakki we would expect that this latter word received the meaning ‘important’ through a meaning ‘heavy’, which is connectible with ‘to carry’. As CHD states, a meaning ‘heavy’ cannot be established for nakki which makes this etymology semantically difficult."
if this Gr. verb is somehow related to these word (as a kind of HK or SK ? root): "ἥκω (hḗkō) to have come, to be present; to have reached a point;(with an adverb followed by a genitive); to have come back, returned;(pleonastic, with a participle); (simply, like γίγνομαι (gígnomai)); (of things) to have come, to be brought; to concern, relate, belong to; to depend upon."
I meant nakki connected to Hit. nini(n)k; I have connected also, at Giacomo's posts, this root h2nek' woth Sum. niĝ [THING] (1641x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium) wr. niĝ2; aĝ2 "thing, possesion; something" Akk. bušu; mimma.
Perhaps it is from some other layer of Greek; as ἀνήκω anhḗkō (prep. ἀνά ana + ἥκω hḗkō), means also "to belong" etc http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Da)nh%2Fkw
BTW, the word "thing" has also a curious etymology; from *tenk 'to span, extend; pull, stretch' according to Pokorny https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1995 or "to be suitable" according to Wiktionary: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/%C3%BEing%C4%85
Not sure, but for. Hit. ḫatk- ‘to shut, to close’, ḫatganu ‘to make tight, to put pressure on', there is also a Gr. word ἴκταρ iktar (A), Adv. A.close together, thickly; close to, hard by', which is maybe connected (as a HTK word perhaps?) http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Di)%2Fktar1
Sorry, I'm writing in a haste, I meant a "HKT" word... a Hit. word which is connected by some with this "iktar" is kitkar (kikkar, kitkarza, kitkaraz, kitkara) "at the head of, on top" (compared to Sum. SAG.DU), of sag "head" we have been talking about: https://books.google.gr/books?id=yS9m9SwHI7EC&pg=PA201&lpg=PA201&dq=Puhvel+kitkar+Hittite&source=bl&ots=esVBbLdAjP&sig=_ftxBzNNbo1Rgugv9rFmrKeI7LQ&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwilyrqkwsDYAhUDqaQKHRybDfkQ6AEIOzAI#v=onepage&q&f=false
Somehow there is a cpnnection with a Hit. word "egdu" or "igdu" "leg": https://books.google.gr/books?id=LbG8vw_pva8C&pg=PA260&lpg=PA260&dq=Puhvel+Hittite+egdu&source=bl&ots=_UBmGjWctJ&sig=hQYuTg_7MG6pUaN2ciR2Ug_sBVs&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjHiaHBzcDYAhXM66QKHU08AQoQ6AEITDAM#v=onepage&q=Puhvel%20Hittite%20egdu&f=false
ἴκταρ (B) iktar as "pudendum muliebre" (female genitals) is here: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*i%3Aentry+group%3D14%3Aentry%3Di%29%2Fktar2 Not again sure, but a Sum. word reminding of "henzer" we have discussed above, is penzer [GENITALS] (2x: Old Babylonian) wr. pe-en-ze2-er "female genitals". Maybe "egdu" is connected with a notion of "press" or on the "top" (on feet?) :/
And what about "leg"? https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/leg "From Middle English leg, from Old Norse leggr (“leg, calf, bone of the arm or leg, hollow tube, stalk”), from Proto-Germanic *lagjaz, *lagwijaz (“leg, thigh”), from Proto-Indo-European *(ǝ)lak-, *lēk-" This (H)lēk / (H)lak looks also like the (H)nek of the other root for bear and raise (n/l? like nigir/libir? :D); maybe then "leg" is something that is bearing the body? Or that is on the top of the limb? (probably nothing of all these...)
This (H)lēk / (H)lak looks also like the (H)nek of the other root for bear and raise (n/l? like nigir/libir? :D); maybe then "leg" is something that is bearing the body?
I did think this Kyriakos , again we are thinking same :D .
:D ToB connects also "leg" with a Gr. word (including a -kt-: λακτίζω laktizo meaning "to kick": http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+681&root=config http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dlakti%2Fzw Also with "Old Indian: r̥kṣálā, r̥cchárā f. `part of an animal's leg between the fetlock joint and the hoof".
Also a Gr. name resembling "iktar" is ἴκτερος íkteros “jaundice”: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/icterus maybe it is meant the colour (yellow) when someone presses - squeezes you (if ḫatk- and iktar are connected, and ikter- is also related to iktar)? In Sumerian there are some SK words like sissi [GREEN] (160x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. si12-si12 (sig7-sig7); sissix(GI)(sig17) "(to be) green-yellow, pale" Akk. arqu; arāqu; also a saga [PRESS?] (2x: Ur III) wr. sa-ga; saga11; sig11 "to press?"
The other Hit. ikt- / ekt- (catch)net and the comparison with Lat. ictus "struck" (meaning the net) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ictus#Latin mentioning also Gr. dikein "to throw" and δίκτυον diktyon "net" reminded me the dáḱru / *h₂eḱru for "tear". I wander also if the "az-" of Sum. az-la "(fish) trap; cage" is from some az (<HTK?) meaning "close" Hit. ḫatk- ‘to shut, to close’ (this az- made me think about the proposition of az "bear" supposingly from Hrk't- and r̥kṣá; r̥kṣálā about the animals leg made me think about it :D ).
''I wander also if the "az-" of Sum. az-la "(fish) trap; cage" is from some az (<HTK?) meaning "close" Hit. ḫatk- ‘to shut, to close’ (this az- made me think about the proposition of az "bear" supposingly from Hrk't- and r̥kṣá; r̥kṣálā about the animals leg made me think about it :D ).''
:D Why, it is azla [CAGE] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. az-la2 "a cage" Akk. nabāru and there is la [HANG] (1399x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. la2; la; lal2 "to supervise, check; to weigh, weigh (out), pay; to hang, balance, suspend, be suspended; to show, display; to bind; binding, (yoke-)team; to press, throttle; to winnow (grain); to carry" Akk. alālu; hanāqu; hiāţu; kamû; kasû; şimittu; kullumu; šaqālu; šuqalulu; zarû also la [STRETCH] (10x: ED IIIb, Old Babylonian) wr. la2 "to stretch out; to be in order" Akk. tarāşu from all these la2 as "weigh, hang, press" or "stretch out" fits with "cage" or "trap"; yet "az" cannot be "bear" or "myrtle"; must be a similar H(r)TK :D
Halloran (ed. 2006) has aza, as, asa, as: cage; fetter; bear [AZ archaic frequency: 13]. Also (ĝiš)az-gu2; (ĝiš)az-bala; (ĝiš)az-la2 neck-stock (for captives); halter ('fetter' + 'neck'). I am thinking now that there is perhaps a related IE root for a HrTK word like in arktos "bear"; since it is also "arkos", I was thinking about Pokorny's 3e. u̯er-, u̯er-g̑h- 'to turn, press, wring, strangle' (for the neck-stock) like also in Latin urgeo: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/urgeo About "cage" I was thinking about an extension of 5. u̯er- 'to shut, close, cover; guard, warn, save' https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/2166 (here there is vāṭaḥ "enclosure") as u̯erĝ-1, u̯reĝ- Material Ai. vrajá- m. [hurdle, , vr̥jana- m. 'enclosure', also in Homer ἔργω ergo or ἐέργω eergo, att. εἴργω eirgo `enclose, shut in, ', att. εἱρκτή eirkte, ion. ἐρκτή erkte `prison', att. εἱργμός eirgmos `prison, catch' etc http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3De)%2Frgw1 of course, if a HR(T)K word can be "az" is another question... :) maybe vāṭaḥ for "enclosure" etc is closer to "az".
About "cage" I was thinking about an extension of 5. u̯er- 'to shut, close, cover; guard, warn, save' https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/2166 (here there is vāṭaḥ "enclosure")
Yes :) .
Material Ai. vrajá- m. [hurdle, , vr̥jana- m. 'enclosure', also in Homer ἔργω ergo or ἐέργω eergo, att. εἴργω eirgo `enclose, shut in, ', att. εἱρκτή eirkte, ion. ἐρκτή erkte `prison', att. εἱργμός eirgmos `prison, catch' etc http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3De)%2Frgw1 of course, if a HR(T)K word can be "az" is another question... :) maybe vāṭaḥ for "enclosure" etc is closer to "az".
There is also akṣu for "net" and some have connected it to Gr. diktyon, apparently (and some other words): https://vukotic.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/the-draining-%CE%B4%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%82-dew/ akṣu (as far as I understand) is connected usually to the root of "sharp" or "eye", but this seems problematic (concerning the semantics).
Another matter I wanted to mention about the *Hnek' root "to bear, elevate, attain" etc is about a possible connection with *bher; and that is mainly because of the comparison with Sum. barag (wr. barag; bara10; bara6; bara7; bara8) "ruler, king; dais, seat" Akk. parakku; šarru; šubtu";barag (wr. barag; bar; bar2-ra; bara9; bur2) "sack", barag wr. BAD (bara4); ba-ra-ge; ba-ra-ga; babarag2; KISALra "to spread out" Akk. uşşû; šuparruru; meaning, it's a comparison of a **HNK with a **BHRK in my mind (the final K in barag, corresponding to the final k of HNK' dropped also); and since we have an attested N/L in Sum. and a L/R generally, the question is mostly about the initial "bh" - if it was initially a **gwh and then reduced to a H in some roots, accoding to this law of lenition of the velar we were hypothesing, and turned to a gwh>bh/p in some other words; also, in Greek some tenses of "phero" are constructed only using the *Hnek' forms, and there must be a reason for this. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CE%AD%CF%81%CF%89 Maybe there is also a connection to ereš "lady, queen; a quality designation" Akk. bēltu "lady"; šarratum "queen" (because of a meaning of "elevation").
the question is mostly about the initial "bh" - if it was initially a **gwh and then reduced to a H in some roots, accoding to this law of lenition of the velar we were hypothesing, and turned to a gwh>bh/p in some other words; also, in Greek some tenses of "phero" are constructed only using the *Hnek' forms, and there must be a reason for this.
Yes :) .
Maybe there is also a connection to ereš "lady, queen; a quality designation" Akk. bēltu "lady"; šarratum "queen" (because of a meaning of "elevation"). Yes, very interesting :) .
Concerning also the connection with *h₂eǵ- (HK) "carry off, lead, bring" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%84%CE%B3%CF%89#Ancient_Greek perhaps it's not a coincidence that the emesal type of niĝ [THING] (1641x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium) wr. niĝ2; aĝ2 "thing, possesion; something" (Akk. bušu; mimma) is the aĝ2.
Also that in Emesel we have "ga" for de = to carry (also "ir" for de = to carry); "ga-ša-an" (looks like "kshan") for nin = lady; "ga-ša-an-ki-gal-la" for ereš-ki-gal-la; also "na-aĝ2" for nam etc (for this latter type na-aĝ2, I think that it opens a possibility for a comparison between gr. νομός nomos "district" (from νέμω nemo < *nem "distribute" etc) with niĝin9 "irrigation district" Akk. nagû).
If Sum. nam for "order, authority" etc is connected (because of a-aĝ = nam, and a possible connection with niĝin = distric) to *Hnek'; since also nam has been compared to *nem = "to distribute"; due also to the hypothesis of a connection with *pher (as **gwher- / **gwhar) with an endig -ag (as in Sum. barag); supposing then that this "r" is silenced (as perhaps in emesal ga for "carry"); this could mean perhaps that this **gwharag / **gwha-/-/ag could lead to *phag = "distribute" (in Sum. perhaps as "pa" (pha), while "ga" = carry); then perhaps *nem and *phag share the same ultimate source :D
this could mean perhaps that this **gwharag / **gwha-/-/ag could lead to *phag = "distribute" (in Sum. perhaps as "pa" (pha), while "ga" = carry); then perhaps *nem and *phag share the same ultimate source :D
I meant na-aĝ = nam, *bher- and *bhag :P we must invent the Sumero-Indo-Hittite (as a prior to Indo-Hittite and Sumerian :D). maybe Sum. ĝar [PLACE] (3926x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, uncertain, unknown) wr. ĝar; ĝa2; ĝa2-ar; ĝa2ĝar; ĝarar; mar; ĝa2ĝarar "to put, place, lay down; to give in place of something, replace; to posit (math.)" Akk. šakānu, fits also to this scheme.
we must invent the Sumero-Indo-Hittite (as a prior to Indo-Hittite and Sumerian :D). maybe Sum. ĝar [PLACE] (3926x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, uncertain, unknown) wr. ĝar; ĝa2; ĝa2-ar; ĝa2ĝar; ĝarar; mar; ĝa2ĝarar "to put, place, lay down; to give in place of something, replace; to posit (math.)" Akk. šakānu, fits also to this scheme.
Maybe the similarity of Sum. de = "to bring" with the IE *dhē- "to set, to put" etc, while in Sumerian "to place" is "ĝar", is due to this same reason of a root like **gwharag (...); maybe, for example, Skrt. dhana we have assumed from **gwhana (**gwha > dha) belongs to this scheme too (with the l/n); maybe also the Sum. lah = "to bring" is from **gwha-lag/ lah. This same proto-root is also very close to dala(n)kh- (or similar) we assumed for "stretching, swamp, sea" etc; even the notion of "distribute" (in nem and bhag, suuposed also connected) could imply, in this case, some canals or rivers of some river-delta, perhaps... maybe also laos "people" is connected, if from lah (and what about *Hlewdh? :D). Danaans (Danaoi) as an older name of Greeks could be also connected (with a huge imagination :D).
This same proto-root is also very close to dala(n)kh- (or similar) we assumed for "stretching, swamp, sea" etc; even the notion of "distribute" (in nem and bhag, suuposed also connected) could imply, in this case, some canals or rivers of some river-delta, perhaps... maybe also laos "people" is connected, if from lah (and what about *Hlewdh? :D). Danaans (Danaoi) as an older name of Greeks could be also connected (with a huge imagination :D).
Hi Nirjhar, Do you know that there was a Thracian tribe called the Dolongi? they inhabited the Thracian Peninsula (today's Gallipoli, in European Turkey): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolonci
Also consider bur [SPREAD] (176x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, uncertain) wr. bur2; bur "to release, free; to reveal; to spread out, cover" Akk. pašāru; šuparruru.
kalam [LAND] (704x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. kalam; ka-na-aĝ2; ka-naĝ "the Land (of Sumer)" Akk. mātu, seems to be also connected...
Hi again, I was wondering today if Sum. naĝ [DRINK] (400x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. naĝ "to drink" Akk. šatû, was also connected... having also in mind that in Greek the reflex for *bhag (phag-) has a meaning not "to distribute" but "to eat" (probably having to do with a notion of "portion" < "distribute").
At ToB I found also a proto-Japanese root *nǝ̀m- = "drink" (old Japanese *nom, which looks also like Gr. nomos "law" < *nem "share, distribute") http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2falt%2fjapet&text_number=++16&root=config Proto Altaic *li̯ŭ̀mo ( ~ ĺ, -e) "to swallow, drink" http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2falt%2faltet&text_number=1219&root=config Proto-Dravidian : *nuŋ- (*-n-?) "to swallow" http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fdrav%2fdravet&text_number=1052&root=config Tamil : nuŋku (nuŋki-) http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fdrav%2fsdret&text_number=3101&root=config
There are also Uralic, AA etc roots. IE is missing, though.Long range here: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2feura%2fglobet&text_number=+616&root=config
On the other hand, I was thinking that if there was a archaic root like **gwharag (with r/l/n) why the root *gʷerh₃- "devour" not to be connected, too: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/g%CA%B7erh%E2%82%83-
Also (if connected to a notion of "portion" too) why not bur [BOWL] (85x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. bur; na4bur "(food) offering, sacrifice; meal(-time); (stone) bowl; a priest" Akk. abru; naptanu; nīqu; pūru (note:... pūru ?? :D )
Also about "drinking", concerning the Hittite connection, there is again a "nink- = drink one's fill‘ compared with Skt. náśati, Lat. nanciscor = attain‘, Lith. nešù, Gk. aor. ἤνεγκον = carried‘, Goth. ganah = it is enough‘; cf. LIEV 25." by the "Hittite Vocabulary".
Kloehorst writes in his Thesis: "ni(n)k ‘to quench one’s thirst, to drink one’s fill; to get drunk’.... Derivatives: ninga ‘drenching, cloudburst’ (Sum. (d)ŠUR ..) ninganu ‘to make (the ground etc.) drink to satisfaction, to drench; to make someone drunk’ .... ........................ Formally, the verb can hardly reflect anything else than *nenK- but a good etymology is lacking. Oettinger (1979a: 143) assumes that ni(n)k is a nasalinfixed form of the root *h2nek' ‘to hold, to take’, but this is difficult formally as well as semantically. Melchert (1994a: 165) rather analyses *ni(n)k as *nem-K- “*take one’s share of drink” (Goth. niman ‘to take’, Latv. nemu ‘to take’). Apart from the fact that assuming an extension *-K- is rather ad hoc, the semantic connection is difficult as well, since *nem rather meant ‘to allot’ (cf. Gr. νέμω ‘to allot’). All in all, none of the proposed etymological connections stands out as evident."
I think that Hittite has kept the "Sumero-Indo-Hittite" :D -naĝ = nank('w) as "nink" while the other IE has inherited a *nem "allot" etc (like in Emesal m < ĝ), while in *Hnek "attain" etc the ĝ of -naĝ became a palatovelar k', losing also its nasal and most possibly its labial.
Also (if connected to a notion of "portion" too) why not bur [BOWL] (85x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. bur; na4bur "(food) offering, sacrifice; meal(-time); (stone) bowl; a priest" Akk. abru; naptanu; nīqu; pūru (note:... pūru ?? :D )
! :D If you get time, can you check on a certain purolAsa in Mayrhofer? , it is a rice cake kind of offering and perhaps also related .
Also about "drinking", concerning the Hittite connection, there is again a "nink- = drink one's fill‘ compared with Skt. náśati, Lat. nanciscor = attain‘, Lith. nešù, Gk. aor. ἤνεγκον = carried‘, Goth. ganah = it is enough‘; cf. LIEV 25." by the "Hittite Vocabulary". Yes :) .
Kloehorst writes in his Thesis: "ni(n)k ‘to quench one’s thirst, to drink one’s fill; to get drunk’.... Derivatives: ninga ‘drenching, cloudburst’ (Sum. (d)ŠUR ..) ninganu ‘to make (the ground etc.) drink to satisfaction, to drench; to make someone drunk’ ....
I see .
I think that Hittite has kept the "Sumero-Indo-Hittite" :D -naĝ = nank('w) as "nink" while the other IE has inherited a *nem "allot" etc (like in Emesal m < ĝ), while in *Hnek "attain" etc the ĝ of -naĝ became a palatovelar k', losing also its nasal and most possibly its labial.
Meanwhile, in Hittite "karap- or karep- or karip-" means "to devour, consume". I have the impression that this ancient root we are talking about is just a K'RK' root [with K' also as kw(h) and R as r/l/n]
Skrt. grah/grabh must be from the same source (as Germ. nehmen "take" is from *nem "to allot"): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%97%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%AD%E0%A5%8D#Sanskrit https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%97%E0%A5%83%E0%A4%AD%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A3%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF#Sanskrit
This notions of drinking/ eating < taking/giving < distribute/allot must be from an initial meaning of "spreading" (to all directions); so I think that *bʰerǵʰ- "to rise" etc must be connected, too: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/b%CA%B0er%C7%B5%CA%B0-
in Greek there are also some words ending in "-ng" which coulbe connected too; they are usually labelled as Pre-Greek because of this ending (resembling with Sum. "ĝ") Like φάραγξ pharanx "cleft, chasm, esp. in a mountain side, ravine, gully" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dfa%2Fragc could be connected to *bher "cut" etc, the root is though brider "pharang-".
Wanting to be provocative again :), I'm wondering about the connection with the "KrK" type of words we have discussed before (perhaps connected ultimately with "Arya"); seems to me as beeing the same and we're just connecting now some other roots and meanings.... This Sum. bur "to release, free; to reveal; to spread out, cover" reminds me also Buranun or Buranuna, the river Euphrates, and I was implying at Giacomo's Hurrian (I think) post about a distant connection of this with "hur" (like in Hurrian etc) "free" etc... then har "free, noble" connected with Arya, we were talking about all these... Also about this K'RK', as nasalized "nK'RnK'" this looks just like a reduplicated "nK'R / nK'R" (or a reduplixated Sum. ĝar or a nasalized **kwar); we have also been talking about all these before ...
I was implying at Giacomo's Hurrian (I think) post about a distant connection of this with "hur" (like in Hurrian etc) "free" etc... then har "free, noble" connected with Arya, we were talking about all these... Also about this K'RK', as nasalized "nK'RnK'" this looks just like a reduplicated "nK'R / nK'R" (or a reduplixated Sum. ĝar or a nasalized **kwar); we have also been talking about all these before ...
Hello Nirjhar, I think that a Hittite word resembling "karap-" (also saras :D ) is "šarap" "to sip, to drink" which Kloekhorst (an others before) think that is a cognate of Latin sorbeo, Gr. ροφέω etc (root *srobh- / *srebh-, *sorbh- / *serbh- "slurp, swallow, gulp" etc) http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=2658&root=config maybe this root is connected to the above mention "archaic" one (from a K' > s maybe)
Searching again about sar- types, I noted that Kloekhorst has also a verb šarr- (act.) ‘to divide up, to distribute; to split, to separate’; (midd. trans.) ‘to cross (a threshold); to pass through (a doorway); to transgress (borders); to violate (an oath)’; (midd. intr.) ‘to be divided; to split up’. Kloekhorst refers that Kimball (1999: 414) connects this verb with Gr.ρωόμαι rhoomai ‘to move violently, to rush’ and reconstructs *serh3. Kloekhorst adds that "Semantically this connection does not make sense, however. Despite the fact that I know no good comparanda, formally a šarr can only go back to a root *seh1 ...."
Yet, Sum. niĝin (supposingly above as connected as *Hnek' etc) means also "to prowl, roam" etc; also the notion of "share" connects, I think, this Hit. verb to the other roots we talked about before meaning *bhag and *nem = "to allot, to divide, to share".
There is also a Hit. verb šarhiye / šarhiya ‘to attack(?), to press upon(?)', which Kloekhorst connects certainly with Gr. ῥώομαι (rhṓomai) ‘move with speed or violence’.
The next lemma in the Hittite Lexicon is šarḫuu̯ant ‘belly, innards, foetus, unborn child’ connected already with Arm. argand "womb": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%A3%D5%A1%D5%B6%D5%A4#Old_Armenian resembling Sum. arhuš [WOMB] (45x: ED IIIb, Lagash II, Old Babylonian) wr. arhuš; arhuš2; arhuš5; arhuš6 "membrane; afterbirth; womb; compassion" Akk. ipu; rîmu (I think Whittaker has connected this Sum. word already with the root of "argand"), but also reminding of niĝinĝar [STILLBIRTH] (4x: Old Babylonian) wr. niĝin3-ĝar; niĝin3-ĝar-ra "stillborn baby"; maybe there is adeeper connection also for this meaning of niĝin, too.
In this supposingly archaic root of a K'RK' type we encounter many words of authority; like in Sum. barag "throne, dais, king", possibly connected also with a *mrg or *Hrg (like in Gr. archon "prince" or arkhai "authorities"); also if *bhag is connected we have also Slaviv bog "god"; if *nem is also connected we have Gr. nomos "law" etc; this šar- words reminded me now also of Akkadian šarru "king" :D
I think there is also a Hurrian šarri for "king". BTW, did you know that at Gr. Mythology there is a king of Troezen called Saron (Σάρων)? https://pantheon.org/articles/s/saron.html They say that its name is probably connected to this Hurrian or Akkadian šar- for "king". The gulf between the peninsulas of Attica (where Athens is) and Argolis (where Troezen is) is called the Gulf of Saron, or Saronic Gulf. :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saronic_Gulf
Searching also about a possible connection of this supposed root with Skrt. saras "lake, pond, swamp" and having in mind Slavic "bog" (< *bhag) I recalled "bog" for swamp :D https://www.etymonline.com/word/bog
For some reason also ToB has a separate "Indo-Greek", let's say, root *bhag- only for a meaning "to eat, drink"; Old Indian: bhaktá- n. `food, meal'; bhakṣati `to eat or drink, partake', bhakṣá- m. `drinking or eating, drink or food': http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpokorny&text_number=+183&root=config
On the other hand, if bog "swamp" is connected to this "archaic root" of "K'rK" type and at the same time is supposed from some *bheug "to bend" (used also for hills "inclined" etc), then the other *bheug(h) root(s) for "flee, run, free" could be connected to Sum. bur "to release, free; to reveal; to spread out, cover"; if from a **KwRKw > **BrK > then **Br-/- in "bur" and **B-/-K in bheug(h), perhaps (I assumed also that Sum. sug for swamp was from a S-/-/-K < K'-/(r)/-K').
Why not, since there is a Nagara nearby :D in the reality Buranuna is called also Puratu in Accadian :P BTW I couldn't find this purolAsa at Mayrhofer :/
I'll check again :) On the other hand this Sum. niĝin "water" must be also about "standing water (after flood)" from this Akkadian a-wi-ri-a-an-nu-um (awiranum):
Ganga is anyway compared to *gwa(n), *gwa(m) which is compared to ĝen [GO] (2789x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. ĝen; ma "to go; to flow" Akk. alāku.
And ĝen "to go, to flow" look close to niĝin too (as the Ken- part of the **KnK, while niĝin is from **(k)-N/KN; I still think that niĝin is connected to Gr. λίμνη limne "lake, wet place, marsh", through a dissimilation of the first "n" into "l" and the ĝ> m Emesal equation.
Ganga is anyway compared to *gwa(n), *gwa(m) which is compared to ĝen [GO] (2789x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. ĝen; ma "to go; to flow" Akk. alāku.
Yeah :) .
And ĝen "to go, to flow" look close to niĝin too (as the Ken- part of the **KnK, while niĝin is from **(k)-N/KN; I still think that niĝin is connected to Gr. λίμνη limne "lake, wet place, marsh", through a dissimilation of the first "n" into "l" and the ĝ> m Emesal equation.
About the similarity of words like Akk. šarru for "king" to saras "pond, lake, swamp", that reminds somehow Sumerian umun "a pit; pond, puddle" and umun "lord; master; ruler" (Emesal version of "en"). The Selloi also (priests of Zeus in Dodona, Epirus), a name compared also to "Hellas" ( < *Sellas), which is compared to Goth. saljan "present, sacrifice", ultimately connected to "sell", could be also related to a notion of "giving, allot": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selloi https://www.etymonline.com/word/sell
I was wonering today if the wanakt- of Greek anax "king, ruler" could be connected somehow to a type of **gwanakt- from this supposingly reduplicated root **gwha(n/r,l)agwh-(.. with a lenition to *wanakt-. wanakt- reminds a bit Old Indian bhanakti `to break, shatter'; bhaṅgá- m. `breaking, splitting, a break or breach' (from a kind of nasalized *bhag, like **bhang - ToB says *bhong. (maybe from gwhang / gwong?); one of the meaning of Celtic "bong" is a gain about victory (siegen) etc: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=2072&root=config
Hi Nirjhar, For the Nostratic ToB has an Altaic *băŋk`i "kick" which reminded me the possible connection of "leg" with *Hnek (l/n). Another important word in Hittite, I think, is nakki "weighty, heave, importand, hard" etc; which is supposed also from *Hnek, though Kloekhorst doubts that, since it does'nt seem to have a meaning of "bear" or "carry".
About bhanakti etc, Mayrhofer does not exclude a possible connection of its root (as *bʰ-(e)ng ) with the root of "break" (German brechen): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/b%CA%B0reg- Mayrhofer think it is *bʰreg- > *bʰeg. But he doesnt't exclude also the possibility of a *bʰng > *bhaj/bhag. I think that this fit also to our scheme.
So, it seems there is *bʰng > *bhag, with other possibilities, if bʰ is from some gwʰ", as we have assumed. Another interesting word is bhunakti "to enjoy, to possess, utilize, to govern, eat and drink, consume, enjoy a meal" etc (from *bhuj/*bhoj), apparently from a *bheug, same root with Lat. fungor and "function" (some other *bheug(h) "incline" was connected to bog "swamp"and another *bheu(g) "to flee, run, free"): http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=bhunakti&direct=se seems also close to Sum. niĝ "thing, possesion". Mallory says bhunakti means also "aids, protects, serves": https://books.google.gr/books?id=tzU3RIV2BWIC&pg=PA614&lpg=PA614&dq=bhunakti+aids+serve+protect&source=bl&ots=wXk132648I&sig=rnm_EDnv3XpTlp1jQ1Sa3Kz9m_E&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi238aPw9TYAhWhDZoKHTbgAR8Q6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q&f=false Maybe the *bheugh was connected to *dheugh in Mallory above (through **gwh > both =bh + =dh). I think a possibility is also opened to a link with the **TNK roots (for heavy", "press", also "swollen" etc - perhaps connected also with HNK, and Hittite nakki "heavy, important" etc), like dhengh "to press, to cover" (connected perhaps also through this meaning of bhunakti "to protect" > then "to cover") https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0396 Here Pokorny has an old Indic word dingid, again resembling Sum. dugud etc; Pokorny opens the possibility also to a connection with dheig̑h- about build and knead clay, wall, enclosure etc... So, I guess, an archaic root may produce a dozen or more newer roots.
Halloran has an important observation; he says that there is a ĝa6(-ĝ) word "to bear, carry" (Umma reading for ila2 [or ili2, or il2] sign "to lift, carry, bear" etc (ila is a loan from Akkad. elu = to raise, be high).
ePSD has also a gaĝ [CARRY] (538x: Ur III) wr. gaĝx(IL2); ga-aĝ3 "to carry" Akk. našû also gur [LIFT] (124x: Ur III, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. gur3-ru; guru3; gur; gur17; guru6 "bearer; to lift, carry" Akk. našû; nāšû, with identical signs (dusu, ga6, gur3, guru3, il2, according to the sign list).
Maybe Sum. gag [NAIL] (304x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ĝešgag; gag; urudgag "arrowhead; peg, nail" Akk. sikkatu; ūşu can be compared (if we assume a nasalized **gwh > ph) to Gr. γόμφος gomphos "nail, peg, bolt; bond, fastener"; from Proto-Hellenic *gómpʰos, from Proto-Indo-European *ǵómbʰos. Cognates include Ancient Macedonian κόμβος (kómbos), Sanskrit जम्भ (jambha), Latin gemma, Old Armenian ծամեմ (camem) and Old English camb (English comb). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%CF%8C%CE%BC%CF%86%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek (I don't remember if we have made this comparison already; sorry for the repetition if we did).
ePSD has also a gaĝ [CARRY] (538x: Ur III) wr. gaĝx(IL2); ga-aĝ3 "to carry" Akk. našû also gur [LIFT] (124x: Ur III, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. gur3-ru; guru3; gur; gur17; guru6 "bearer; to lift, carry" Akk. našû; nāšû, with identical signs (dusu, ga6, gur3, guru3, il2, according to the sign list).
Yes :) .
Maybe Sum. gag [NAIL] (304x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ĝešgag; gag; urudgag "arrowhead; peg, nail" Akk. sikkatu; ūşu can be compared (if we assume a nasalized **gwh > ph) to Gr. γόμφος gomphos "nail, peg, bolt; bond, fastener"; from Proto-Hellenic *gómpʰos, from Proto-Indo-European *ǵómbʰos. Cognates include Ancient Macedonian κόμβος (kómbos), Sanskrit जम्भ (jambha), Latin gemma, Old Armenian ծամեմ (camem) and Old English camb (English comb). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%CF%8C%CE%BC%CF%86%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek (I don't remember if we have made this comparison already; sorry for the repetition if we did).
Also Skrt. जम्भ (jámbha) m "tooth, eyetooth, tusk; swallowing; one who crushes or swallows (as a demon); name of several demons (conquered by Vishnu, Krishna or Indra); a leader of the demons in the war against the gods under Indra; Indra's thunderbolt; charm (?); quiver; part, portion" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%9C%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AD#Sanskrit opens, I think, the possibility of a connection whith bhag/bhaj (ja(m)bh- and bha(n)j- look as if one's j has taken the place of the other's bh and vice versa :D ).
There is also a Gr. word βρύχω brycho "to crunch with the teeth, to gnash, to bite" < *gʷrēuĝh-, gʷrū̆ĝh- in Pokorny, and this "KrK" root fits also good to our scheme, I think. http://biblehub.com/greek/1031.htm
I think, the possibility of a connection whith bhag/bhaj (ja(m)bh- and bha(n)j- look as if one's j has taken the place of the other's bh and vice versa :D ).
!:D . There is also a Gr. word βρύχω brycho "to crunch with the teeth, to gnash, to bite" < *gʷrēuĝh-, gʷrū̆ĝh- in Pokorny, and this "KrK" root fits also good to our scheme, I think.
Another root about the TNK / HNK etc type about "pressing" etc, must be *h₂enǵʰ- "narrow, tight; to constrict, tighten, compress": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82en%C7%B5%CA%B0-
In Greel ἄγχω (ánkhō) means "to compress, press tight, especially the throat; to strangle, throttle, choke; to put pressure on" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%84%CE%B3%CF%87%CF%89#Ancient_Greek And there is also another word πνίγω pnigo "I choke, throttle, strangle; hence: I drown." http://biblehub.com/greek/4155.htm probably from another Greek layer, maybe also connected? (not sure though; it reminds yet niĝin "encircle" :D)
Sum. barag "throne" made me remember now guza [CHAIR] (1431x: Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. ĝešgu-za; gu-za; gu2-za; [ĝeš]guza; [ĝeš]aš-te "chair, stool, throne" Akk. kussû, most probably related to Arabic كُرْسِيّ (kursiyy) m (plural ; fكَرَاسِيّ (karāsiyy) or كَرَاسٍ (karāsin)) "chair, seat; seating; throne; sofa, couch"; from ك ر س (k-r-s). Compare Akkadian 𒄖𒍝 (kussû [GU.ZA]) / 𒄑𒄖𒍝 (kussû [GIŠ.GU.ZA]), Aramaic כּוּרְסְיָא (kursəyā), Classical Syriac ܟܘܪܣܝܐ (kursyā), Ugaritic 𐎋𐎒𐎜 (ksủ), Hebrew כיסא \ כִּסֵּא (kisé, kissē); [aš-te is in Emesal]. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D9%83%D8%B1%D8%B3%D9%8A I think it's possibly from some **KR(T?)K', so basically the same scheme as barag (the "r" in case of guza was silenced - or vocalized- like perhaps in az "bear" < HRTK?).
I think it's possibly from some **KR(T?)K', so basically the same scheme as barag (the "r" in case of guza was silenced - or vocalized- like perhaps in az "bear" < HRTK?).
For a conversation about this word, look here: https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/etymology-of-the-arabic-root-k-r-s.2249394/
Perhaps it is connected to the root *dher "to support, to hold" (if from **gwher-, together with > *bher): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/d%CA%B0er- According to the draditional view Gr. θρόνος thronos "throne" is from the same root: https://www.etymonline.com/word/throne (maybe connected to Gr. "duruna").
In Halloran's Lexicon there is a guz, huz[LUM] v., to gnash the teeth; to bare the teeth; to rage at; to cut, trim, clip; to castrate (reduplication class: hu-hu-uz) (gù, 'noise', + zú, 'teeth'). I don't see it at the ePSD; yet, it reminded me the conversation about gug "peg, nail (teeth) etc (notion : "bring", "bear", "take", "allot" "part, portion" "cut", "teeth", "peg, nail")
There must be also some connection of this roots like HNK etc, to forms with "l" (l/n), like the lah we were talking about for "carry", or the "hal" about distribute etc, we have seen before; also with la [HANG] (1399x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. la2; la; lal2 "to supervise, check; to weigh, weigh (out), pay; to hang, balance, suspend, be suspended; to show, display; to bind; binding, (yoke-)team; to press, throttle; to winnow (grain); to carry" Akk. alālu; hanāqu; hiāţu; kamû; kasû; şimittu; kullumu; šaqālu; šuqalulu; zarû with notions as throttle, carry, press etc already discussed before... (after all, apart from pharynx and pharyngitis, exists also larynx and laryngitis :D )
There is also a la [STRETCH] (10x: ED IIIb, Old Babylonian) wr. la2 "to stretch out; to be in order" Akk. tarāşu I remembered now the conversation about the derivation of lagab and niĝin at Giacomo's (first, I think) post.
A kind of KNK/HNK /TNK situation perhaps exists also in the case of *nébʰ- (as in *nébʰos "cloud" etc) and Sum. dugud, in Halloran also "cloud" (also in ePSD aĝar [RAINSHOWER] wr. aĝar5; aĝar6 "rainshower, downpour" Akk. rādu is written as IM.DUGUD) if the -bh is < **gwh again; supposing also a connection with *dhengh "to press, to cover" etc. One must admit there are curious words in *nébʰos, like Lycian 𐊗𐊀𐊂𐊀𐊛𐊀𐊈𐊀 (tabahaza), Luwian 𒋫𒀊𒉺𒀸𒊭 (tappassa) and Latvian debess: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/n%C3%A9b%CA%B0os
2,273 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 1401 – 1600 of 2273 Newer› Newest»*Hes- (as a kind of HS < HK') for "to be" could be perhaps connected to the same root *He-m-s-. The meaning could be initially something like "swelling, grow" (like bʰuh₂- "to become, grow, appear")
I agree :D .
About the similar word for "shoulder" (*h₃ém-s-o-s), I think it could be connected to some "ken" root (meaning both round an sharp), like the one for knee (gonu), also to the hek (HK) for "sharp", the tig - TK "sharp" etc, maybe...
Yes! .
Also about haš [STONE] wr. [na4]haš2 "a stone", I noticed a Persian word آس (ās, “grinding stone”), from Hek' (like in English "edge" and German "Ecke").
Very nice! :) .
The word humsirum [MOUSE] (1x: 1st millennium) wr. ha-mun-zi-lum "mouse" (Akk. humşīru) must follow a similar pattern (Hem-s-ro?); I remember that Sum. peš "mouse, rat, rodent" in Akkadian is also "humşīru", and peš means also thick, pregnant etc; so we must have also here a meaning of "swelling" (like a "fat, thick creature").
Yes :) .
Another word in Greek that looks like ὦμος "shoulder" (ōmos < *h₃ém-s-o-s) is ὠμός (ōmós) m, "raw, crude, undressed;(of flesh) raw, uncooked, (figuratively) savage, fierce, cruel"; from Proto-Indo-European *h₃emós, *h₂eh₃mós. Cognates include Sanskrit आम (āmá), Old Armenian հում (hum, “raw”), and Irish amh.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%A0%CE%BC%CF%8C%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
others (like Pokorny) say that Latin amarus "bitter" etc is from the same root:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/amarus
Starostin has a different root for amarus etc, this one:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+830&root=config
Proto-IE: *am-(r-)
Nostratic etymology: Nostratic etymology
Meaning: sour, tasting sharp
Old Indian: amla- `sour, acid'
Armenian: amokh `süss'
Germanic: *ampr-a- adj., *ampr-ōn- f.
Latin: amārus, -a `bitter; scharf, beissend, herb, verletzend'
Albanian: ɛmbĺɛ `süss'
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+830&root=config
which in Pokorny is together with *om-os (or *h₂eh₃mós) Anyway, the meaning could be again "sharp, bitter"; and maybe it's again from a kind of HH-m ?< HS-m < HK'-m (from "sharp", like f.e. in ἀκμή (akmḗ) f (ak-me "point, edge", look above).
The reason I say all these is because I think there is a possible comparison with some "hum" and possible "gum" words in Sumerian (I mean like the Armenian cognate "hum", “raw”), of course not meaning "raw" in this case, but something bitter, sharp (even metaphorically) or "cut" (like Sum. gum [LAME] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. gum2 "(to be) lame" Akk. hunzû; hutenzû; huzzû) (fortition? g<h??). Halloran has also a meaning "cripple" for henzer: "henzer: weakling; cripple; infant.". Also there is Sum. hum [PARALYZE] (2x: Old Babylonian) wr. hum "to paralyze (bodies); a blood clot disease (stroke?)" Akk. hamû ša2 zumri; hurpi gig.
Interesting! :D .
:D I think this is also interesting:
Latin erus m (genitive erī) .. "master of the house or family":
According to Pokorny, it comes from Proto-Indo-European *esu- (“good, able”) and thus suffered rhotacism. This would make it cognate with Ancient Greek ἐύς (eús, “good, able”), Avestan (ahu, “lord”) and (ahura, “lord”), Hittite 𒈗 (ḥaššū, “king”), Sanskrit असुर (asura, “spirit”) and Old Norse æsir.
A connexion with heres (“heir”) and hirudo (“leech”) has also been proposed by Charlton Lewis and Charles Short, making it stem instead from Proto-Indo-European *ǵʰeh₁ro- (“derelict”). Cognates would include Ancient Greek χήρα (khḗra, “widow”), हरति (harati, “to seize”) and हरण (haraṇa, “hand”)"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/erus#Latin
Comparison with Sum. ereš [LADY] (11x: ED IIIb, Ebla, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. ereš "lady, queen; a quality designation" Akk. bēltu "lady"; šarratum "queen".
:D
yes! :D .
Reminds also a bit Hera, the Queen of Gods :P
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hera
Yes ,
There is also a Sum. era [LEADER] wr. era3 "leader (of the assembly)" Akk. mu'erru
resembling a bit to another Gr. word for "assembly" > εἴρη eire ionic for ἀγορά agora "a place of assembly", epic gen. pl. εἰράων Il. (from ἐρῶ ero "I talk").
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dei)%2Frh1
True :) .
Akk. "mu'erru" is also the equivalent of Sum. kingal [OFFICIAL] (23x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Ebla, Old Babylonian) wr. kingal; kin-gal "grandee; crown authority over land, labor recruiter" Akk. mu'erru; rabû.
(I think that the "kin-" in "kingal" fits also to some "ken" word assumed as connected to the above words of authorsip like asura, Hit. ḥaššū "king" etc in a way like "knee" supposingly is connected to h₃ém-s-o-s for "shoulder").
Yes, possible :) .
I think that the connection is probably to *k̑ens-'to announce, proclaim, speak formally':
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0919
since, according to J. Halloran is "kingal: commander, director (kiĝ, 'to order', + gal, 'big, great') [KINGAL archaic frequency: 39]; I think we have talked before about it in Giacomo's posts... also εἴρω (hence εἴρη eire "assembly" rtc) is about speaking "("say, speak, tell"):
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dei)%2Frw2
Yes, logical IMO :) .
I remembered now our conversation one moth ago about kosmos, śaṃsati, again about notions of swelling, "round", sending and stretching etc :)
http://njsaryablog.blogspot.gr/2017/04/indo-european-connections.html?commentPage=5
Yes :) .
Halloran has a word kindagal or kindaĝal, "overseer of a group of (five) slaves", and if I remember well, Whittaker has said that this "kinda" is from the IE for "five" (he said it about the word for "barber", I think; yet I think it is some other "ken" word, as we have talked about - Halloran has also a word kindagal = "chief barber").
Yes possible , I agree :) .
I remembered also about Whittaker's proposal about Sum. hazin "ax" and Gr. ἀξῑ́νη (axī́nē) " axe-head, axe" (Akkadian ḫaṣṣinnu)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CE%BE%CE%AF%CE%BD%CE%B7
I have to say, that in this case I think it is about a HTK > HKS word :D
but Sumerian has also a haš [BATTLE-MACE] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. ĝešhaš "battle-mace" Akk. mašgašu, also haš [BREAK] (13x: ED IIIb, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. haš "to break off; to break; to divert (water)" Akk. haşābu; šebēru
that could be (perhaps) simply from HK'... Well, I think so.
Halloran has haš, haz "break" etc, that's why I cannot decide between HS and HTK :/
I have to say, that in this case I think it is about a HTK > HKS word :D
but Sumerian has also a haš [BATTLE-MACE] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. ĝešhaš "battle-mace" Akk. mašgašu, also haš [BREAK] (13x: ED IIIb, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. haš "to break off; to break; to divert (water)" Akk. haşābu; šebēru
that could be (perhaps) simply from HK'... Well, I think so.
Yes :) .
Halloran has haš, haz "break" etc, that's why I cannot decide between HS and HTK :/
I understand :) .
About kiĝ [WORK] (1111x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. kiĝ2 "to work"
I was thinking about a comparison with Gr. κᾰ́μνω (kámnō) "exert oneself, labour, work hard"
from Proto-Indo-European *kem(H)- (“to be tired”).[1]
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%AC%CE%BC%CE%BD%CF%89
Pokorny includes also Indic reflexes (śamyati etc):
Material Ai. śamnītē, śámati, śamyati, Imp. śamī̆-ṣva `sich mühen, arbeiten, zurichten, zubereiten', śamitá- `zubereitet', śamitár- `Zurichter, Zubereiter', śámī f., śámi n. `Bemühung. Werk, Fleiß' (śimyati = `śamyati', śima- m. `Zubereiter' sind durch das bedeutungsgleiche śímī `Fleiß' hervorgerufen); śāmyati `hört auf, läßt nach' aus `*ermüdet', Aor. aśamat, aśamīt; śāntá- `beruhigt, ruhig, sanft, mild' (*k̂emətós, wird seines ā halber in der Bed. näher mit śāmyati assoziiert);
gr. κάμνω `mühe mich, ermüde; tr. verfertige (mit Mühe)' (wohl *km̥-n-ā-, wie ai. śamnītē), Fut. καμοῦμαι, Aor. ἔκαμον, Perf. κέκμηκα, dor. κέκμᾱκα, Partiz. κεκμη(ϝ)ώς, κμητός, dor. κμᾱτός, πολύκμητος `mit vieler Mühe oder Sorgfalt zubereitet', κάματος `Ermüdung, Anstrengung, Mühsal, Leiden', ἀ-κμής, -ῆτος, ἀκάμας, -αντος `unermüdet, frisch', καμόντες `die Toten', wie att. κεκμηκότες; o-stufig εἰρο-κόμος `Wolle bereitend', ἱππο-κόμος `Pferdeknecht', κομέω `pflege' usw., κομιδή `Pflege, das Bringen usw.'; dehnstufig κῶμα `tiefer, ruhiger Schlaf'; mir. cuma, mbret. caffou `Kummer' (Pedersen KG. I 47, 361); mir. cumal `Sklavin' (`*sich mühend, anstrengend', wie:) gall. Camulos `Kriegsgott'?
Yes, very good! :) .
Hi Nirjhar,
Yes, but this *kem(H)- compared to Sum. kiĝ seems to indicate an -m < ĝ (as if from some "emesal" type m = ĝ), meaning it's an archaic root, coming from pre-IE (perhaps I'talking nonsense here :D )
The other kiĝ [SEEK] (108x: Old Babylonian) wr. kiĝ2 "to seek" Akk. pâru, must be connected, I think, also to kiĝ "to work"; and there is a Hittite word šanḫ- which is from IE *sen-H-, like Skt. sanóti ‘gain, achieve etc’ and Gk. ἀνύω [anyo] ‘achieve’; the word "authentic" < Gr. αὐθεντικός "authentikos" ("something from my own hand") < αὐθέντης < αὐτός autós, “self” + *ἕντης *héntēs, supposed from the same root:
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1689
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B1%E1%BD%90%CE%B8%CE%AD%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=sanoti&direct=se
Obviously, as you have understood, this proposal assumes that *sen-H- is the satem form of some **kenH, connected to Sum. kiĝ (written also as KIN) and so the Gr. form is in the reality Indo-Greek :D.
The other kiĝ [SEEK] (108x: Old Babylonian) wr. kiĝ2 "to seek" Akk. pâru, must be connected
I agree :) .
Obviously, as you have understood, this proposal assumes that *sen-H- is the satem form of some **kenH, connected to Sum. kiĝ (written also as KIN) and so the Gr. form is in the reality Indo-Greek :D.
Of course ! :) .
Hittite šanḫ- means "to seek, to strive" etc.
I checked Pokorny's reflexes of this root, from here:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpokorny&text_number=1685&root=config
About the above mentioned ἐντύω entyo, ἐντύ̄νω entyno `mache fertig, rüste zu, bereite' "to equip, deck out, get ready, prepare etc", from the same root (like the -entes of authentes, authentic etc)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29ntu%3D%2Fnw&la=greek&can=e%29ntu%3D%2Fnw0#lexicon
Hesychius has a noun "ἔντυος = κόσμος" / "entyos = kosmos (order etc)" (kosmos < k'ens, we have compared with kiĝ in kinĝal).
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*e%3Aentry+group%3D130%3Aentry%3De%29%2Fntuos
Halloran (2006 ed.) also has: kiĝ2, kin: n., message, order; task, work; clay/brick work on a dam (ki, 'places', + a2 ... aĝa, 'to command'[KIN archaic frequency: 9].
v., to send orders, to seek, fetch (with locative-terminative -ni-); to prowl; to send; to order (reduplication class).
Very nice! :D .
:D ;) ToB has also this root as *sen(w)-
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=2415&root=config
meaning it is really an archaic root (IH is for Indo-Hittite, an old PIE or even pre-IE).
I think, Nirjhar, that a verb like Gr. ἀνύω anyo "to effect, achieve, accomplish, complete"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Da)nu%2Fw
a reflex of this root, fits good for the last day of the year :) So, we have completed (ἠνύσαμεν eenyssamen :D ) hopefully this year and now we're seeking :D to expand a bit our little knowledge during the next one... I wish a Happy New Year 2018! :)
meaning it is really an archaic root (IH is for Indo-Hittite, an old PIE or even pre-IE).
Yes! :) .
I think, Nirjhar, that a verb like Gr. ἀνύω anyo "to effect, achieve, accomplish, complete"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Da)nu%2Fw
a reflex of this root, fits good for the last day of the year :) So, we have completed (ἠνύσαμεν eenyssamen :D )
Yes,beautiful! :) .
hopefully this year and now we're seeking :D to expand a bit our little knowledge during the next one... I wish a Happy New Year 2018! :)
Of course Kyriakos! :D .Best wishes for 2018! :) .
:) So, let's begin this new year's striving ("šanḫ-") Nirjhar :D
Indeed, the notion about "striving" made me think again about the *ken-4 root 'to strain, strive eagerly' (like in διάκονος diakonos "servant", "deacon" etc). https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0911
Maybe it is also connected to the kiĝ ("kin") root. Also I remembered the *ken root of rub, dust etc (we have been talking about this before) and the assumed *(s)k(w)en(d) (to fit Gr. σποδός spodos = κόνις konis "dust"); this made me think again the (s)kandha for "shoulder" (there is also a *ken for "neck" https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0908 ).
I was thinking that, maybe, if *He-m-s- "beget" is connected ultimately with *ken and *genH for "beget", it's very possible for *He-m-s -(os) for "shoulder" to be connected to "ken" for "neck" and (s)kandha < **(s)k(w)en(d) "shoulder".
:) So, let's begin this new year's striving ("šanḫ-") Nirjhar :D
:D yup! .
Indeed, the notion about "striving" made me think again about the *ken-4 root 'to strain, strive eagerly' (like in διάκονος diakonos "servant", "deacon" etc).
I agree :) .
Maybe it is also connected to the kiĝ ("kin") root. Also I remembered the *ken root of rub, dust etc (we have been talking about this before) and the assumed *(s)k(w)en(d) (to fit Gr. σποδός spodos = κόνις konis "dust"); this made me think again the (s)kandha for "shoulder" (there is also a *ken for "neck"
Yes , very nice :) .
I was thinking that, maybe, if *He-m-s- "beget" is connected ultimately with *ken and *genH for "beget", it's very possible for *He-m-s -(os) for "shoulder" to be connected to "ken" for "neck" and (s)kandha < **(s)k(w)en(d) "shoulder".
! :D .
"Shoulder" is connected to a notion of cut, blade (because of the shape of the bones, like in Lat. scapula). Sum. haš "break" (and gaz "kill") also seems quite close to Khotanese hatcan "break" mentioned by Mayrhofer in his lemma about kandha "shoulder" etc.
Yes ! :) .
Also in Gr. σπάθη spathe "blade", one of the meanings is "shoulder blade"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%80%CE%AC%CE%B8%CE%B7
and I would say that a **skwe(n)dh could fit also to this case (dh/d as in kandha).
Yes, I agree with you! :D .
The "He-s" root for "dust" (korresponding to *ken etc, is of course the *h₂eHs- of "ash"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82eHs-
while the "TK" is the one of Gr. τέφρα dʰegʷʰ- for burning etc.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CE%AD%CF%86%CF%81%CE%B1
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/d%CA%B0eg%CA%B7%CA%B0-
For the roots about "work, striving" etc the "TK" must be again teḱ > tetḱ- (like in "technical" etc)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/tet%E1%B8%B1-
While haš [THIGH] (20x: Old Babylonian) wr. haš2; haš4 "lower body, abdomen; thigh" Akk. emšu; šapru must be the HeS of the connected root *tewk (perhaps from < *tewh₂-)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/tewk-
Like in "thigh" etc :D
Wonderful observations Kyriakos ! :) .
Thank you, Nirjhar :) I don't think it is just a coincidence, there must be a deeper connection between TK clusters, KN (or HM) roots etc (the basic idea is the **KwKw root of Speirs). And these is not just a matter of IE, must be widespread, as we have already seen. For example in Sum. eš [THREE] (16x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. eš5; eš-a-bi; eš10; am3-mu-uš "three; triplets" Akk. takšû "triplets"; šalāš "three", which is a word moist probably connected to Sum. peš = "thick, pregnant" etc, there is the TK in Akk. "takšû", also the Hms in Emesal am3-mu-uš (similar to Akk. emšu "thigh").
Yes :) .
About the writing system etc, it's interesting that the sign kiĝ2 of kiĝ ("kin") = "seek", "work", "to be pointed" etc it's written with the KIN sign, which is the same of saga11 "to press?", and there is a IE ken root about "to pinch, to press":
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0908
Though a saga (SK) root reminds also the root of "seek" :D (sag-)
I mean, there must be a connection with SK roots, too.
Though a saga (SK) root reminds also the root of "seek" :D (sag-)
I mean, there must be a connection with SK roots, too
Yes :D .
*kens could be also connected with some **(s)kwe-n-(d) root (like **skwen/skwen / **sken/sken > *kens/kens :D
About the meaning of *ken "to pinch, to press", this could be connected to some **(s)kwen- again, probably because of a meaning "to stretch" like of **kwe-n > *ten; for example in pe-n-s like in *pinso "crush, grind" etc or in *tek / *tengh / *tenk "to span, extend; pull, stretch" or *tens with the same meaning (kw > p, kw > t, one can check these roots from here: https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master )
*kens could be also connected with some **(s)kwe-n-(d) root (like **skwen/skwen / **sken/sken > *kens/kens :D
Yes :D .
About the meaning of *ken "to pinch, to press", this could be connected to some **(s)kwen- again, probably because of a meaning "to stretch" like of **kwe-n > *ten; for example in pe-n-s like in *pinso "crush, grind" etc or in *tek / *tengh / *tenk "to span, extend; pull, stretch" or *tens with the same meaning (kw > p, kw > t, one can check these roots from here: .
Very nice , yes :) .
I've noticed in Kloekhorst's Hittite Lexcon a word ḫatk- ‘to shut, to close’, ḫatganu ‘to make tight, to put pressure on'(adj.) ḫatku / ḫatgau ‘tight, pressed, stressful' (As Kloekhorst says "the verb originally meant something like ‘to press together, to squeeze’". and it is compared to Gr. ἄχθομαι akthomai ‘to be burdened, to be depressed’, ἄχθος akhthos ‘pressure, burden’ we were talking before; so this must be the HTK root of the roots about pressing. :D
Beautiful ! :) .
Finally, I've noticed also a Hittite word aniya-: to act, create, work, achieve; − to make grow (a plant) (id. KIN); aniyatt- (c., §76) : achievement, work (id. KIN-att-); Kloekhorst says aniyi-a ‘to work; to carry out, to produce, to treat’ (Sum. KIN), compared usually to Skrt. anas "heavy cart; mother; birth; offspring" and Latin onus "burden, load" < h₃enh₂- 'to onerate; to charge'; Pokorny Etymon: enos-, or onos- 'onus, burden':
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0488
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%83enh%E2%82%82-
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+232&root=config
That I think must be the HN (?) type of the "pressing, burdened" roots.
Yes , I agree :) .
I've also read at the Hittite Etymological Dictionary of Jaan Puhvel, that, according O. Szemerenyi, a form "anisk-" of this Hit. word aniya- (for work etc) was introduced in Gr. as "ask-", giving ἀσκέω (askéō) "to work (raw materials), form; to adorn, decorate, trick out; to honor, revere; to practice, exercise, train (often, but not always, of athletics):
https://books.google.gr/books?id=LbG8vw_pva8C&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=anisk+hittite+work&source=bl&ots=_UBmFfX4zG&sig=q-ffWuxtdjDS60MwFWwewUHAGhE&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiq4qL2xLzYAhVHIpoKHRXpC3wQ6AEINTAF#v=onepage&q=anisk%20hittite%20work&f=false
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=a)ske/w
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%AD%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
Perhaps there is also a relation to ἀσκός (askós, “skin, hide”). And I thought that Sumerian ašgab [LEATHERWORKER] (631x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. ašgab "leatherworker" Akk. aškāpu, was maybe related to askos, in Giacomo's first post.
Perhaps there is also a relation to ἀσκός (askós, “skin, hide”). And I thought that Sumerian ašgab [LEATHERWORKER] (631x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. ašgab "leatherworker" Akk. aškāpu, was maybe related to askos, in Giacomo's first post.
Yes, I find this very interesting ! :) .
Not sure, but about heše [OPPRESSED] (17x: Old Babylonian) wr. heš5še3; haš "(to be) oppressed; (to be) detained" Akk. habālu; kalû
I have the impression that it could be also compared to Hit. ḫatk- ‘to shut, to close; to press" etc (maybe as ḫatk'-, if š < tk' - ?).
Also about Gr.*ἴπτομαι iptomai, fut. ἴψομαι ipsomai: aor. 1 ἰψάμην ipsameen:—
"A.press hard, oppress"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Di)%2Fptomai
maybe this is from some **< HKwT- (reversed) < **HTKw- (like ḫatk-) ; or maybe from some layer as HTKw > HKw (loss of the T of the thorn cluster), like perhaps in Gr. ἶπος ipos (neut. or fem.) A.the piece of wood that falls and catches the mouse, 2. any weight, fuller's press"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Di)%3Dpos
(a word resembling Gr. "hippos" horse I assumed ultimately from some KT/TK word, like from Gr. ταχύς takhys "fast".
Also about Gr.*ἴπτομαι iptomai, fut. ἴψομαι ipsomai: aor. 1 ἰψάμην ipsameen:—
"A.press hard, oppress"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Di)%2Fptomai
maybe this is from some **< HKwT- (reversed) < **HTKw- (like ḫatk-) ; or maybe from some layer as HTKw > HKw (loss of the T of the thorn cluster), like perhaps in Gr. ἶπος ipos (neut. or fem.) A.the piece of wood that falls and catches the mouse, 2. any weight, fuller's press"
Yes I agree .
(a word resembling Gr. "hippos" horse I assumed ultimately from some KT/TK word, like from Gr. ταχύς takhys "fast".
Yeah :D .
Sorry Kyriakos, I deleted this comment by mistake :( :
''There is also a Hittite verb nini(n)k, according to Kloekhorst meaning ‘to mobilize, to set (people) in motion; to move, to transfer; to set in motion; (midd. and intr. act.); to behave in a disorderly manner; to disturb, to agitate’, most probably connected also to a notion of "raise, bear, burden" too:
Proto-IE: *(e)nek'-
Meaning: to bear
Hittite: ninink- `heben, hochnehmen'
Tokharian: A ents-, B enk- `nehmen, fassen' (PT *enk-, *enk-s-) (Adams 77-78)
Old Greek: aor. pass. ēnékhthēn `wurde getragen', pf. katḗnoka (Hsch.), enḗnokha, med. enḗnegmai̯, aor. enenkẹ̄̂n `tragen'; óŋko-s m. `Masse, Last, Gewicht; Würde, Stolz, Prahlerei'
Slavic: *nestī, *nesǭ; *-nosъ; *nosjā
Baltic: *neč- (prs. *neč-a-) vb. tr., *nač-ā̂ f., *nač-t-ā̂ f., *nōč-ia- c.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=++1327&root=config
which reminds me Sum. niĝin [ENCIRCLE] (214x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. niĝin2; niĝin "to prowl, roam; to enclose, confine; to encircle; to search; to turn; to return; to go around; to tarry" Akk. esēru; lawû; sahāru; târu; târu; sahāru; şâdu
also niĝin [FETUS] (5x: ED IIIb, Ur III) wr. niĝin3 "fetus" Akk. kūbu''
which reminds me Sum. niĝin [ENCIRCLE] (214x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. niĝin2; niĝin "to prowl, roam; to enclose, confine; to encircle; to search; to turn; to return; to go around; to tarry" Akk. esēru; lawû; sahāru; târu; târu; sahāru; şâdu
also niĝin [FETUS] (5x: ED IIIb, Ur III) wr. niĝin3 "fetus" Akk. kūbu''
I agree :) . Very, nice ! .
You deleted also a suggestion about comparing henzer henzer [BLOCK] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. henzir "to block" Akk. pehû, also to Hit. ḫatk- ‘to shut, to close; to press" etc (maybe as ḫatk'- with an -n infix, resembling the *Hems- of the comparison with henzer "child", assumed to be connected with "ken" and TKN roots also.
I see . I will try to be more careful :) .
:D About Kloekhorst nini(n)k though, Kloekhorst thinks appealing a comparison of Oettinger with Gr. νεῖκος (neîkos) "quarrel, wrangle, strife" and some other Baltic words:
Perhaps from Proto-Indo-European *neik- (“to attack, start vehemently”) and cognate with Lithuanian ap-ni̇̀kti (“to attack”), su-ni̇̀kti (“to attack”), Latvian nikns (“bad, grim, vehement”), maybe also Russian в-никнуть (v-niknutʹ), про-никнуть (pro-niknutʹ). See also νίκη (níkē).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BD%CE%B5%E1%BF%96%CE%BA%CE%BF%CF%82
If you remember I have compared neikos with Sum. nig "female dog; lioness"; maybe more "nig" words share the same etymology.
About Kloekhorst nini(n)k though, Kloekhorst thinks appealing a comparison of Oettinger with Gr. νεῖκος (neîkos) "quarrel, wrangle, strife" and some other Baltic words:
Perhaps from Proto-Indo-European *neik- (“to attack, start vehemently”) and cognate with Lithuanian ap-ni̇̀kti (“to attack”), su-ni̇̀kti (“to attack”), Latvian nikns (“bad, grim, vehement”), maybe also Russian в-никнуть (v-niknutʹ), про-никнуть (pro-niknutʹ). See also νίκη (níkē).
Yes :) .
If you remember I have compared neikos with Sum. nig "female dog; lioness"; maybe more "nig" words share the same etymology.
Of course :) .
I'm wondering if this Gr. verb is somehow related to these word (as a kind of HK or SK ? root): "ἥκω (hḗkō) to have come, to be present; to have reached a point;(with an adverb followed by a genitive); to have come back, returned;(pleonastic, with a participle); (simply, like γίγνομαι (gígnomai)); (of things) to have come, to be brought; to concern, relate, belong to; to depend upon."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%A5%CE%BA%CF%89
There is also another Hittite word nakki (adj.) ‘important, valuable; difficult, inaccesible; powerful’ (Sum. DUGUD); nakkiyah = ‘to be(come) a concerne to someone, to be difficult for someone; (part.) honoured, revered’; nakkiyatar / nakkiyan (n.) ‘dignity, importance; esteem; power; difficulty’ (Sum. DUGUD-atar); nakkē ‘to be honoured, to be important; to be difficult, to be an obstacle’ nakkešš
which Kloekhorst says it was xonnected by Sturtevant (1930c: 215) connected with Hitt. nini(n) ‘to set in motion’ and the *h2nek' root. Kloekhorst says that "this view is widely followed, but semantically this etymology is difficult. The root *h2nek' denotes ‘to seize, to carry’. If this were the ancestor of Hitt. nakki we would expect that this latter word received the meaning ‘important’ through a meaning ‘heavy’, which is connectible with ‘to carry’. As CHD states, a meaning ‘heavy’ cannot be established for nakki which makes this etymology semantically difficult."
if this Gr. verb is somehow related to these word (as a kind of HK or SK ? root): "ἥκω (hḗkō) to have come, to be present; to have reached a point;(with an adverb followed by a genitive); to have come back, returned;(pleonastic, with a participle); (simply, like γίγνομαι (gígnomai)); (of things) to have come, to be brought; to concern, relate, belong to; to depend upon."
Possible , IMO :) .
I meant nakki connected to Hit. nini(n)k; I have connected also, at Giacomo's posts, this root h2nek' woth Sum. niĝ [THING] (1641x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium) wr. niĝ2; aĝ2 "thing, possesion; something" Akk. bušu; mimma.
Of course , very nice :) .
Perhaps it is from some other layer of Greek; as ἀνήκω anhḗkō (prep. ἀνά ana + ἥκω hḗkō), means also "to belong" etc http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Da)nh%2Fkw
BTW, the word "thing" has also a curious etymology; from *tenk 'to span, extend; pull, stretch' according to Pokorny https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/1995
or "to be suitable" according to Wiktionary:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/%C3%BEing%C4%85
Curious indeed Kyriakos :) .
Not sure, but for. Hit. ḫatk- ‘to shut, to close’, ḫatganu ‘to make tight, to put pressure on', there is also a Gr. word ἴκταρ iktar (A), Adv. A.close together, thickly; close to, hard by', which is maybe connected (as a HTK word perhaps?)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Di)%2Fktar1
Makes sense :) .
Sorry, I'm writing in a haste, I meant a "HKT" word... a Hit. word which is connected by some with this "iktar" is kitkar (kikkar, kitkarza, kitkaraz, kitkara) "at the head of, on top" (compared to Sum. SAG.DU), of sag "head" we have been talking about:
https://books.google.gr/books?id=yS9m9SwHI7EC&pg=PA201&lpg=PA201&dq=Puhvel+kitkar+Hittite&source=bl&ots=esVBbLdAjP&sig=_ftxBzNNbo1Rgugv9rFmrKeI7LQ&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwilyrqkwsDYAhUDqaQKHRybDfkQ6AEIOzAI#v=onepage&q&f=false
Somehow there is a cpnnection with a Hit. word "egdu" or "igdu" "leg":
https://books.google.gr/books?id=LbG8vw_pva8C&pg=PA260&lpg=PA260&dq=Puhvel+Hittite+egdu&source=bl&ots=_UBmGjWctJ&sig=hQYuTg_7MG6pUaN2ciR2Ug_sBVs&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjHiaHBzcDYAhXM66QKHU08AQoQ6AEITDAM#v=onepage&q=Puhvel%20Hittite%20egdu&f=false
I see :) . Yes, its robust .
ἴκταρ (B) iktar as "pudendum muliebre" (female genitals) is here:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*i%3Aentry+group%3D14%3Aentry%3Di%29%2Fktar2
Not again sure, but a Sum. word reminding of "henzer" we have discussed above, is penzer [GENITALS] (2x: Old Babylonian) wr. pe-en-ze2-er "female genitals".
Maybe "egdu" is connected with a notion of "press" or on the "top" (on feet?) :/
Possible IMO ;) .
And what about "leg"?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/leg
"From Middle English leg, from Old Norse leggr (“leg, calf, bone of the arm or leg, hollow tube, stalk”), from Proto-Germanic *lagjaz, *lagwijaz (“leg, thigh”), from Proto-Indo-European *(ǝ)lak-, *lēk-"
This (H)lēk / (H)lak looks also like the (H)nek of the other root for bear and raise (n/l? like nigir/libir? :D); maybe then "leg" is something that is bearing the body? Or that is on the top of the limb? (probably nothing of all these...)
This (H)lēk / (H)lak looks also like the (H)nek of the other root for bear and raise (n/l? like nigir/libir? :D); maybe then "leg" is something that is bearing the body?
I did think this Kyriakos , again we are thinking same :D .
:D ToB connects also "leg" with a Gr. word (including a -kt-: λακτίζω laktizo meaning "to kick":
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+681&root=config
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dlakti%2Fzw
Also with "Old Indian: r̥kṣálā, r̥cchárā f. `part of an animal's leg between the fetlock joint and the hoof".
That is nice :) .
Also a Gr. name resembling "iktar" is ἴκτερος íkteros “jaundice”:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/icterus
maybe it is meant the colour (yellow) when someone presses - squeezes you (if ḫatk- and iktar are connected, and ikter- is also related to iktar)? In Sumerian there are some SK words like sissi [GREEN] (160x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. si12-si12 (sig7-sig7); sissix(GI)(sig17) "(to be) green-yellow, pale" Akk. arqu; arāqu; also a saga [PRESS?] (2x: Ur III) wr. sa-ga; saga11; sig11 "to press?"
That's a very good idea :) .
The other Hit. ikt- / ekt- (catch)net and the comparison with Lat. ictus "struck" (meaning the net)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ictus#Latin
mentioning also Gr. dikein "to throw" and δίκτυον diktyon "net" reminded me the dáḱru / *h₂eḱru for "tear".
I wander also if the "az-" of Sum. az-la "(fish) trap; cage" is from some az (<HTK?) meaning "close" Hit. ḫatk- ‘to shut, to close’ (this az- made me think about the proposition of az "bear" supposingly from Hrk't- and r̥kṣá; r̥kṣálā about the animals leg made me think about it :D ).
''I wander also if the "az-" of Sum. az-la "(fish) trap; cage" is from some az (<HTK?) meaning "close" Hit. ḫatk- ‘to shut, to close’ (this az- made me think about the proposition of az "bear" supposingly from Hrk't- and r̥kṣá; r̥kṣálā about the animals leg made me think about it :D ).''
! :D .
:D Why, it is azla [CAGE] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. az-la2 "a cage" Akk. nabāru
and there is la [HANG] (1399x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. la2; la; lal2 "to supervise, check; to weigh, weigh (out), pay; to hang, balance, suspend, be suspended; to show, display; to bind; binding, (yoke-)team; to press, throttle; to winnow (grain); to carry" Akk. alālu; hanāqu; hiāţu; kamû; kasû; şimittu; kullumu; šaqālu; šuqalulu; zarû
also la [STRETCH] (10x: ED IIIb, Old Babylonian) wr. la2 "to stretch out; to be in order" Akk. tarāşu
from all these la2 as "weigh, hang, press" or "stretch out" fits with "cage" or "trap"; yet "az" cannot be "bear" or "myrtle"; must be a similar H(r)TK :D
Halloran (ed. 2006) has aza, as, asa, as: cage; fetter; bear [AZ archaic frequency: 13].
Also (ĝiš)az-gu2; (ĝiš)az-bala; (ĝiš)az-la2 neck-stock (for captives); halter ('fetter' + 'neck').
I am thinking now that there is perhaps a related IE root for a HrTK word like in arktos "bear"; since it is also "arkos", I was thinking about Pokorny's 3e. u̯er-, u̯er-g̑h- 'to turn, press, wring, strangle' (for the neck-stock) like also in Latin urgeo:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/urgeo
About "cage" I was thinking about an extension of 5. u̯er- 'to shut, close, cover; guard, warn, save' https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/2166 (here there is vāṭaḥ "enclosure")
as u̯erĝ-1, u̯reĝ-
Material Ai. vrajá- m. [hurdle, , vr̥jana- m. 'enclosure', also in Homer ἔργω ergo or ἐέργω eergo, att. εἴργω eirgo `enclose, shut in, ', att. εἱρκτή eirkte, ion. ἐρκτή erkte `prison', att. εἱργμός eirgmos `prison, catch' etc
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3De)%2Frgw1
of course, if a HR(T)K word can be "az" is another question... :) maybe vāṭaḥ for "enclosure" etc is closer to "az".
About "cage" I was thinking about an extension of 5. u̯er- 'to shut, close, cover; guard, warn, save' https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/2166 (here there is vāṭaḥ "enclosure")
Yes :) .
Material Ai. vrajá- m. [hurdle, , vr̥jana- m. 'enclosure', also in Homer ἔργω ergo or ἐέργω eergo, att. εἴργω eirgo `enclose, shut in, ', att. εἱρκτή eirkte, ion. ἐρκτή erkte `prison', att. εἱργμός eirgmos `prison, catch' etc
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3De)%2Frgw1
of course, if a HR(T)K word can be "az" is another question... :) maybe vāṭaḥ for "enclosure" etc is closer to "az".
I think vāṭaḥ can be closer , yes .
There is also akṣu for "net" and some have connected it to Gr. diktyon, apparently (and some other words):
https://vukotic.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/the-draining-%CE%B4%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%82-dew/
akṣu (as far as I understand) is connected usually to the root of "sharp" or "eye", but this seems problematic (concerning the semantics).
Yup .
Another matter I wanted to mention about the *Hnek' root "to bear, elevate, attain" etc is about a possible connection with *bher; and that is mainly because of the comparison with Sum. barag (wr. barag; bara10; bara6; bara7; bara8) "ruler, king; dais, seat" Akk. parakku; šarru; šubtu";barag (wr. barag; bar; bar2-ra; bara9; bur2) "sack", barag wr. BAD (bara4); ba-ra-ge; ba-ra-ga; babarag2; KISALra "to spread out" Akk. uşşû; šuparruru; meaning, it's a comparison of a **HNK with a **BHRK in my mind (the final K in barag, corresponding to the final k of HNK' dropped also); and since we have an attested N/L in Sum. and a L/R generally, the question is mostly about the initial "bh" - if it was initially a **gwh and then reduced to a H in some roots, accoding to this law of lenition of the velar we were hypothesing, and turned to a gwh>bh/p in some other words; also, in Greek some tenses of "phero" are constructed only using the *Hnek' forms, and there must be a reason for this.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CE%AD%CF%81%CF%89
Maybe there is also a connection to ereš "lady, queen; a quality designation" Akk. bēltu "lady"; šarratum "queen" (because of a meaning of "elevation").
the question is mostly about the initial "bh" - if it was initially a **gwh and then reduced to a H in some roots, accoding to this law of lenition of the velar we were hypothesing, and turned to a gwh>bh/p in some other words; also, in Greek some tenses of "phero" are constructed only using the *Hnek' forms, and there must be a reason for this.
Yes :) .
Maybe there is also a connection to ereš "lady, queen; a quality designation" Akk. bēltu "lady"; šarratum "queen" (because of a meaning of "elevation").
Yes, very interesting :) .
Concerning also the connection with *h₂eǵ- (HK) "carry off, lead, bring"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%84%CE%B3%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
perhaps it's not a coincidence that the emesal type of niĝ [THING] (1641x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, 1st millennium) wr. niĝ2; aĝ2 "thing, possesion; something" (Akk. bušu; mimma) is the aĝ2.
True :) .
Also that in Emesel we have "ga" for de = to carry (also "ir" for de = to carry); "ga-ša-an" (looks like "kshan") for nin = lady; "ga-ša-an-ki-gal-la" for ereš-ki-gal-la; also "na-aĝ2" for nam etc (for this latter type na-aĝ2, I think that it opens a possibility for a comparison between gr. νομός nomos "district" (from νέμω nemo < *nem "distribute" etc) with niĝin9 "irrigation district" Akk. nagû).
Yes, looks good :) .
If Sum. nam for "order, authority" etc is connected (because of a-aĝ = nam, and a possible connection with niĝin = distric) to *Hnek'; since also nam has been compared to *nem = "to distribute"; due also to the hypothesis of a connection with *pher (as **gwher- / **gwhar) with an endig -ag (as in Sum. barag); supposing then that this "r" is silenced (as perhaps in emesal ga for "carry"); this could mean perhaps that this **gwharag / **gwha-/-/ag could lead to *phag = "distribute" (in Sum. perhaps as "pa" (pha), while "ga" = carry); then perhaps *nem and *phag share the same ultimate source :D
this could mean perhaps that this **gwharag / **gwha-/-/ag could lead to *phag = "distribute" (in Sum. perhaps as "pa" (pha), while "ga" = carry); then perhaps *nem and *phag share the same ultimate source :D
! :D .
I meant na-aĝ = nam, *bher- and *bhag :P we must invent the Sumero-Indo-Hittite (as a prior to Indo-Hittite and Sumerian :D). maybe Sum. ĝar [PLACE] (3926x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, uncertain, unknown) wr. ĝar; ĝa2; ĝa2-ar; ĝa2ĝar; ĝarar; mar; ĝa2ĝarar "to put, place, lay down; to give in place of something, replace; to posit (math.)" Akk. šakānu, fits also to this scheme.
I meant na-aĝ = nam, *bher- and *bhag :P
Of course :) .
we must invent the Sumero-Indo-Hittite (as a prior to Indo-Hittite and Sumerian :D). maybe Sum. ĝar [PLACE] (3926x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, uncertain, unknown) wr. ĝar; ĝa2; ĝa2-ar; ĝa2ĝar; ĝarar; mar; ĝa2ĝarar "to put, place, lay down; to give in place of something, replace; to posit (math.)" Akk. šakānu, fits also to this scheme.
Yes! :D .
Maybe the similarity of Sum. de = "to bring" with the IE *dhē- "to set, to put" etc, while in Sumerian "to place" is "ĝar", is due to this same reason of a root like **gwharag (...); maybe, for example, Skrt. dhana we have assumed from **gwhana (**gwha > dha) belongs to this scheme too (with the l/n); maybe also the Sum. lah = "to bring" is from **gwha-lag/ lah. This same proto-root is also very close to dala(n)kh- (or similar) we assumed for "stretching, swamp, sea" etc; even the notion of "distribute" (in nem and bhag, suuposed also connected) could imply, in this case, some canals or rivers of some river-delta, perhaps... maybe also laos "people" is connected, if from lah (and what about *Hlewdh? :D). Danaans (Danaoi) as an older name of Greeks could be also connected (with a huge imagination :D).
This same proto-root is also very close to dala(n)kh- (or similar) we assumed for "stretching, swamp, sea" etc; even the notion of "distribute" (in nem and bhag, suuposed also connected) could imply, in this case, some canals or rivers of some river-delta, perhaps... maybe also laos "people" is connected, if from lah (and what about *Hlewdh? :D). Danaans (Danaoi) as an older name of Greeks could be also connected (with a huge imagination :D).
Once again , very interesting ! :) .
Hi Nirjhar,
Do you know that there was a Thracian tribe called the Dolongi? they inhabited the Thracian Peninsula (today's Gallipoli, in European Turkey):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolonci
No I didn't , thanks :) .
Maybe Sum. bar "to cut" etc and the compared IE root *bher for cut etc are connected too, like the roots for distribute.
Also consider bur [SPREAD] (176x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian, uncertain) wr. bur2; bur "to release, free; to reveal; to spread out, cover" Akk. pašāru; šuparruru.
I think same :) .
kalam [LAND] (704x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. kalam; ka-na-aĝ2; ka-naĝ "the Land (of Sumer)" Akk. mātu, seems to be also connected...
Yup :) .
Hi again,
I was wondering today if Sum. naĝ [DRINK] (400x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. naĝ "to drink" Akk. šatû, was also connected... having also in mind that in Greek the reflex for *bhag (phag-) has a meaning not "to distribute" but "to eat" (probably having to do with a notion of "portion" < "distribute").
At ToB I found also a proto-Japanese root *nǝ̀m- = "drink" (old Japanese *nom, which looks also like Gr. nomos "law" < *nem "share, distribute")
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2falt%2fjapet&text_number=++16&root=config
Proto Altaic *li̯ŭ̀mo ( ~ ĺ, -e) "to swallow, drink"
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2falt%2faltet&text_number=1219&root=config
Proto-Dravidian : *nuŋ- (*-n-?) "to swallow"
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fdrav%2fdravet&text_number=1052&root=config
Tamil : nuŋku (nuŋki-)
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fdrav%2fsdret&text_number=3101&root=config
There are also Uralic, AA etc roots. IE is missing, though.Long range here:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2feura%2fglobet&text_number=+616&root=config
Quite interesting Kyriakos :) .
On the other hand, I was thinking that if there was a archaic root like **gwharag (with r/l/n) why the root *gʷerh₃- "devour" not to be connected, too:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/g%CA%B7erh%E2%82%83-
Very interesting! :D .
Also (if connected to a notion of "portion" too) why not bur [BOWL] (85x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. bur; na4bur "(food) offering, sacrifice; meal(-time); (stone) bowl; a priest" Akk. abru; naptanu; nīqu; pūru (note:... pūru ?? :D )
Also about "drinking", concerning the Hittite connection, there is again a "nink- = drink one's fill‘ compared with Skt. náśati, Lat. nanciscor = attain‘, Lith. nešù, Gk. aor. ἤνεγκον = carried‘, Goth. ganah = it is enough‘; cf. LIEV 25." by the "Hittite Vocabulary".
Kloehorst writes in his Thesis: "ni(n)k ‘to quench one’s thirst, to drink one’s fill; to get drunk’.... Derivatives: ninga ‘drenching, cloudburst’ (Sum. (d)ŠUR ..) ninganu ‘to make (the ground etc.) drink to satisfaction, to drench; to make someone drunk’ ....
........................
Formally, the verb can hardly reflect anything else than *nenK- but a good etymology is lacking. Oettinger (1979a: 143) assumes that ni(n)k is a nasalinfixed form of the root *h2nek' ‘to hold, to take’, but this is difficult formally as well as semantically. Melchert (1994a: 165) rather analyses *ni(n)k as *nem-K- “*take one’s share of drink” (Goth. niman ‘to take’, Latv. nemu ‘to take’). Apart from the fact that assuming an extension *-K- is rather ad hoc, the semantic connection is difficult as well, since *nem rather meant ‘to allot’ (cf. Gr. νέμω ‘to allot’).
All in all, none of the proposed etymological connections stands out as evident."
I think that Hittite has kept the "Sumero-Indo-Hittite" :D -naĝ = nank('w) as "nink" while the other IE has inherited a *nem "allot" etc (like in Emesal m < ĝ), while in *Hnek "attain" etc the ĝ of -naĝ became a palatovelar k', losing also its nasal and most possibly its labial.
Also (if connected to a notion of "portion" too) why not bur [BOWL] (85x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. bur; na4bur "(food) offering, sacrifice; meal(-time); (stone) bowl; a priest" Akk. abru; naptanu; nīqu; pūru (note:... pūru ?? :D )
! :D If you get time, can you check on a certain purolAsa in Mayrhofer? , it is a rice cake kind of offering and perhaps also related .
Also about "drinking", concerning the Hittite connection, there is again a "nink- = drink one's fill‘ compared with Skt. náśati, Lat. nanciscor = attain‘, Lith. nešù, Gk. aor. ἤνεγκον = carried‘, Goth. ganah = it is enough‘; cf. LIEV 25." by the "Hittite Vocabulary".
Yes :) .
Kloehorst writes in his Thesis: "ni(n)k ‘to quench one’s thirst, to drink one’s fill; to get drunk’.... Derivatives: ninga ‘drenching, cloudburst’ (Sum. (d)ŠUR ..) ninganu ‘to make (the ground etc.) drink to satisfaction, to drench; to make someone drunk’ ....
I see .
I think that Hittite has kept the "Sumero-Indo-Hittite" :D -naĝ = nank('w) as "nink" while the other IE has inherited a *nem "allot" etc (like in Emesal m < ĝ), while in *Hnek "attain" etc the ĝ of -naĝ became a palatovelar k', losing also its nasal and most possibly its labial.
Very good :) .
Meanwhile, in Hittite "karap- or karep- or karip-" means "to devour, consume".
I have the impression that this ancient root we are talking about is just a K'RK' root [with K' also as kw(h) and R as r/l/n]
I agree :) .
Skrt. grah/grabh must be from the same source (as Germ. nehmen "take" is from *nem "to allot"):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%97%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%AD%E0%A5%8D#Sanskrit
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%97%E0%A5%83%E0%A4%AD%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A3%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF#Sanskrit
Yes , looks good :) .
This notions of drinking/ eating < taking/giving < distribute/allot must be from an initial meaning of "spreading" (to all directions); so I think that *bʰerǵʰ- "to rise" etc must be connected, too:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/b%CA%B0er%C7%B5%CA%B0-
Yup :) .
Also saras, Sarasvati etc...
Possible :) .
If saras is connected to dalankh- / thalass-, as I assumed, and dalankh- is connected also to this root we are talking about. :)
True :) .
in Greek there are also some words ending in "-ng" which coulbe connected too; they are usually labelled as Pre-Greek because of this ending (resembling with Sum. "ĝ")
Like φάραγξ pharanx "cleft, chasm, esp. in a mountain side, ravine, gully"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dfa%2Fragc
could be connected to *bher "cut" etc, the root is though brider "pharang-".
Interesting :) .
Or pharynx φάρυγξ ( < pharyng-) "throat" etc
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dfa%2Frugc
Yes ! :) .
Wanting to be provocative again :), I'm wondering about the connection with the "KrK" type of words we have discussed before (perhaps connected ultimately with "Arya"); seems to me as beeing the same and we're just connecting now some other roots and meanings....
This Sum. bur "to release, free; to reveal; to spread out, cover" reminds me also Buranun or Buranuna, the river Euphrates, and I was implying at Giacomo's Hurrian (I think) post about a distant connection of this with "hur" (like in Hurrian etc) "free" etc... then har "free, noble" connected with Arya, we were talking about all these...
Also about this K'RK', as nasalized "nK'RnK'" this looks just like a reduplicated "nK'R / nK'R" (or a reduplixated Sum. ĝar or a nasalized **kwar); we have also been talking about all these before ...
I was implying at Giacomo's Hurrian (I think) post about a distant connection of this with "hur" (like in Hurrian etc) "free" etc... then har "free, noble" connected with Arya, we were talking about all these...
Also about this K'RK', as nasalized "nK'RnK'" this looks just like a reduplicated "nK'R / nK'R" (or a reduplixated Sum. ĝar or a nasalized **kwar); we have also been talking about all these before ...
I see :) .
Hello Nirjhar,
I think that a Hittite word resembling "karap-" (also saras :D ) is "šarap" "to sip, to drink" which Kloekhorst (an others before) think that is a cognate of Latin sorbeo, Gr. ροφέω etc (root *srobh- / *srebh-, *sorbh- / *serbh- "slurp, swallow, gulp" etc)
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=2658&root=config
maybe this root is connected to the above mention "archaic" one (from a K' > s maybe)
Nice :) .
Searching again about sar- types, I noted that Kloekhorst has also a verb šarr- (act.) ‘to divide up, to distribute; to split, to separate’; (midd. trans.) ‘to cross (a threshold); to pass through (a doorway); to transgress (borders); to violate (an oath)’; (midd. intr.) ‘to be divided; to split up’. Kloekhorst refers that Kimball (1999: 414) connects this verb with Gr.ρωόμαι rhoomai ‘to move violently, to rush’ and reconstructs *serh3. Kloekhorst adds that "Semantically this connection does not make sense, however. Despite the fact that I know no good comparanda, formally a šarr can only go back to a root *seh1 ...."
Yet, Sum. niĝin (supposingly above as connected as *Hnek' etc) means also "to prowl, roam" etc; also the notion of "share" connects, I think, this Hit. verb to the other roots we talked about before meaning *bhag and *nem = "to allot, to divide, to share".
Good, yeah .
There is also a Hit. verb šarhiye / šarhiya ‘to attack(?), to press upon(?)', which Kloekhorst connects certainly with Gr. ῥώομαι (rhṓomai) ‘move with speed or violence’.
I see :) .
The next lemma in the Hittite Lexicon is šarḫuu̯ant ‘belly, innards, foetus, unborn child’ connected already with Arm. argand "womb":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%A3%D5%A1%D5%B6%D5%A4#Old_Armenian
resembling Sum. arhuš [WOMB] (45x: ED IIIb, Lagash II, Old Babylonian) wr. arhuš; arhuš2; arhuš5; arhuš6 "membrane; afterbirth; womb; compassion" Akk. ipu; rîmu (I think Whittaker has connected this Sum. word already with the root of "argand"), but also reminding of niĝinĝar [STILLBIRTH] (4x: Old Babylonian) wr. niĝin3-ĝar; niĝin3-ĝar-ra "stillborn baby"; maybe there is adeeper connection also for this meaning of niĝin, too.
I think too :) .
In this supposingly archaic root of a K'RK' type we encounter many words of authority; like in Sum. barag "throne, dais, king", possibly connected also with a *mrg or *Hrg (like in Gr. archon "prince" or arkhai "authorities"); also if *bhag is connected we have also Slaviv bog "god"; if *nem is also connected we have Gr. nomos "law" etc; this šar- words reminded me now also of Akkadian šarru "king" :D
True :) .
I think there is also a Hurrian šarri for "king".
BTW, did you know that at Gr. Mythology there is a king of Troezen called Saron (Σάρων)?
https://pantheon.org/articles/s/saron.html
They say that its name is probably connected to this Hurrian or Akkadian šar- for "king". The gulf between the peninsulas of Attica (where Athens is) and Argolis (where Troezen is) is called the Gulf of Saron, or Saronic Gulf. :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saronic_Gulf
Very interesting! :) .
Searching also about a possible connection of this supposed root with Skrt. saras "lake, pond, swamp" and having in mind Slavic "bog" (< *bhag) I recalled "bog" for swamp :D
https://www.etymonline.com/word/bog
Cool! :) .
For some reason also ToB has a separate "Indo-Greek", let's say, root *bhag- only for a meaning "to eat, drink"; Old Indian: bhaktá- n. `food, meal'; bhakṣati `to eat or drink, partake', bhakṣá- m. `drinking or eating, drink or food':
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpokorny&text_number=+183&root=config
Quite interesting Kyriakos :) .
On the other hand, if bog "swamp" is connected to this "archaic root" of "K'rK" type and at the same time is supposed from some *bheug "to bend" (used also for hills "inclined" etc), then the other *bheug(h) root(s) for "flee, run, free" could be connected to Sum. bur "to release, free; to reveal; to spread out, cover"; if from a **KwRKw > **BrK > then **Br-/- in "bur" and **B-/-K in bheug(h), perhaps (I assumed also that Sum. sug for swamp was from a S-/-/-K < K'-/(r)/-K').
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0251
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=+++2&root=config
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=2065&root=config
Yes, looks Practical :) .
I'm thinking now that, at the end, "sar" (about running, fleeing etc) could be connected indeed to Sarasvati...
:D
Yeah, ath the end Sarasvati and Buranuna / Euphrates could be cognates :P; maybe are the same river :D
Yes!! :D
Why not, since there is a Nagara nearby :D in the reality Buranuna is called also Puratu in Accadian :P BTW I couldn't find this purolAsa at Mayrhofer :/
Why not, since there is a Nagara nearby :D
Yes ! :) .
in the reality Buranuna is called also Puratu in Accadian :P
I see :) .
BTW I couldn't find this purolAsa at Mayrhofer :/
oh! that's strange , thanks for taking the look :) .
I'll check again :)
On the other hand this Sum. niĝin "water" must be also about "standing water (after flood)" from this Akkadian a-wi-ri-a-an-nu-um (awiranum):
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/cgi-bin/distprof?cfgw=ni%C5%8Bin[water]&res=abe&eid=e4237
https://books.google.gr/books?id=-qIuVCsRb98C&pg=PA32&lpg=PA32&dq=awiranum&source=bl&ots=BrbiyuSNFw&sig=phIvBtCsuWsLr9GgL1xiebQh2wI&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjS1Zb11s3YAhVlJMAKHSeCBIYQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=awiranum&f=false
Last provocative statement of the day: Ganga seems to be also a kind of "KrK" root, if we set the n instead of r (it reminded me of this niĝin). :)
On the other hand this Sum. niĝin "water" must be also about "standing water (after flood)" from this Akkadian a-wi-ri-a-an-nu-um (awiranum):
I agree :) .
Last provocative statement of the day: Ganga seems to be also a kind of "KrK" root, if we set the n instead of r (it reminded me of this niĝin). :)
True :) .
Ganga is anyway compared to *gwa(n), *gwa(m) which is compared to ĝen [GO] (2789x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. ĝen; ma "to go; to flow" Akk. alāku.
And ĝen "to go, to flow" look close to niĝin too (as the Ken- part of the **KnK, while niĝin is from **(k)-N/KN; I still think that niĝin is connected to Gr. λίμνη limne "lake, wet place, marsh", through a dissimilation of the first "n" into "l" and the ĝ> m Emesal equation.
Ganga is anyway compared to *gwa(n), *gwa(m) which is compared to ĝen [GO] (2789x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. ĝen; ma "to go; to flow" Akk. alāku.
Yeah :) .
And ĝen "to go, to flow" look close to niĝin too (as the Ken- part of the **KnK, while niĝin is from **(k)-N/KN; I still think that niĝin is connected to Gr. λίμνη limne "lake, wet place, marsh", through a dissimilation of the first "n" into "l" and the ĝ> m Emesal equation.
I agree :) .
About the similarity of words like Akk. šarru for "king" to saras "pond, lake, swamp", that reminds somehow Sumerian umun "a pit; pond, puddle" and umun "lord; master; ruler" (Emesal version of "en").
The Selloi also (priests of Zeus in Dodona, Epirus), a name compared also to "Hellas" ( < *Sellas), which is compared to Goth. saljan "present, sacrifice", ultimately connected to "sell", could be also related to a notion of "giving, allot":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selloi
https://www.etymonline.com/word/sell
Very interesting concept :) .
I was wonering today if the wanakt- of Greek anax "king, ruler" could be connected somehow to a type of **gwanakt- from this supposingly reduplicated root **gwha(n/r,l)agwh-(.. with a lenition to *wanakt-. wanakt- reminds a bit Old Indian bhanakti `to break, shatter'; bhaṅgá- m. `breaking, splitting, a break or breach' (from a kind of nasalized *bhag, like **bhang - ToB says *bhong. (maybe from gwhang / gwong?); one of the meaning of Celtic "bong" is a gain about victory (siegen) etc:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=2072&root=config
Very nice :) .
Hi Nirjhar,
For the Nostratic ToB has an Altaic *băŋk`i "kick" which reminded me the possible connection of "leg" with *Hnek (l/n).
Another important word in Hittite, I think, is nakki "weighty, heave, importand, hard" etc; which is supposed also from *Hnek, though Kloekhorst doubts that, since it does'nt seem to have a meaning of "bear" or "carry".
I see :) .
About bhanakti etc, Mayrhofer does not exclude a possible connection of its root (as *bʰ-(e)ng ) with the root of "break" (German brechen):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/b%CA%B0reg-
Mayrhofer think it is *bʰreg- > *bʰeg. But he doesnt't exclude also the possibility of a *bʰng > *bhaj/bhag. I think that this fit also to our scheme.
Yup :) .
So, it seems there is *bʰng > *bhag, with other possibilities, if bʰ is from some gwʰ", as we have assumed.
Another interesting word is bhunakti "to enjoy, to possess, utilize, to govern, eat and drink, consume, enjoy a meal" etc (from *bhuj/*bhoj), apparently from a *bheug, same root with Lat. fungor and "function" (some other *bheug(h) "incline" was connected to bog "swamp"and another *bheu(g) "to flee, run, free"):
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=bhunakti&direct=se
seems also close to Sum. niĝ "thing, possesion".
Mallory says bhunakti means also "aids, protects, serves":
https://books.google.gr/books?id=tzU3RIV2BWIC&pg=PA614&lpg=PA614&dq=bhunakti+aids+serve+protect&source=bl&ots=wXk132648I&sig=rnm_EDnv3XpTlp1jQ1Sa3Kz9m_E&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi238aPw9TYAhWhDZoKHTbgAR8Q6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
Maybe the *bheugh was connected to *dheugh in Mallory above (through **gwh > both =bh + =dh). I think a possibility is also opened to a link with the **TNK roots (for heavy", "press", also "swollen" etc - perhaps connected also with HNK, and Hittite nakki "heavy, important" etc), like dhengh "to press, to cover" (connected perhaps also through this meaning of bhunakti "to protect" > then "to cover") https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/master/0396
Here Pokorny has an old Indic word dingid, again resembling Sum. dugud etc; Pokorny opens the possibility also to a connection with dheig̑h- about build and knead clay, wall, enclosure etc...
So, I guess, an archaic root may produce a dozen or more newer roots.
So, it seems there is *bʰng > *bhag, with other possibilities, if bʰ is from some gwʰ", as we have assumed.
True :) .
Here Pokorny has an old Indic word dingid, again resembling Sum. dugud etc
Where ? .
So, I guess, an archaic root may produce a dozen or more newer roots.
Yes, I agree :) .
Sorry, it was a Celtic word :/ mea culpa :(
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dingid
oh I see haha ;) .
Halloran has an important observation; he says that there is a ĝa6(-ĝ) word "to bear, carry" (Umma reading for ila2 [or ili2, or il2] sign "to lift, carry, bear" etc (ila is a loan from Akkad. elu = to raise, be high).
True! :) .
ePSD has also a gaĝ [CARRY] (538x: Ur III) wr. gaĝx(IL2); ga-aĝ3 "to carry" Akk. našû
also gur [LIFT] (124x: Ur III, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. gur3-ru; guru3; gur; gur17; guru6 "bearer; to lift, carry" Akk. našû; nāšû, with identical signs (dusu, ga6, gur3, guru3, il2, according to the sign list).
Maybe Sum. gag [NAIL] (304x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ĝešgag; gag; urudgag "arrowhead; peg, nail" Akk. sikkatu; ūşu can be compared (if we assume a nasalized **gwh > ph) to Gr. γόμφος gomphos "nail, peg, bolt; bond, fastener"; from Proto-Hellenic *gómpʰos, from Proto-Indo-European *ǵómbʰos. Cognates include Ancient Macedonian κόμβος (kómbos), Sanskrit जम्भ (jambha), Latin gemma, Old Armenian ծամեմ (camem) and Old English camb (English comb).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%CF%8C%CE%BC%CF%86%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
(I don't remember if we have made this comparison already; sorry for the repetition if we did).
ePSD has also a gaĝ [CARRY] (538x: Ur III) wr. gaĝx(IL2); ga-aĝ3 "to carry" Akk. našû
also gur [LIFT] (124x: Ur III, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. gur3-ru; guru3; gur; gur17; guru6 "bearer; to lift, carry" Akk. našû; nāšû, with identical signs (dusu, ga6, gur3, guru3, il2, according to the sign list).
Yes :) .
Maybe Sum. gag [NAIL] (304x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ĝešgag; gag; urudgag "arrowhead; peg, nail" Akk. sikkatu; ūşu can be compared (if we assume a nasalized **gwh > ph) to Gr. γόμφος gomphos "nail, peg, bolt; bond, fastener"; from Proto-Hellenic *gómpʰos, from Proto-Indo-European *ǵómbʰos. Cognates include Ancient Macedonian κόμβος (kómbos), Sanskrit जम्भ (jambha), Latin gemma, Old Armenian ծամեմ (camem) and Old English camb (English comb).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%CF%8C%CE%BC%CF%86%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
(I don't remember if we have made this comparison already; sorry for the repetition if we did).
Very good suggestion again :) .
Also Skrt. जम्भ (jámbha) m "tooth, eyetooth, tusk; swallowing; one who crushes or swallows (as a demon); name of several demons (conquered by Vishnu, Krishna or Indra); a leader of the demons in the war against the gods under Indra; Indra's thunderbolt; charm (?); quiver; part, portion"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%9C%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AD#Sanskrit
opens, I think, the possibility of a connection whith bhag/bhaj (ja(m)bh- and bha(n)j- look as if one's j has taken the place of the other's bh and vice versa :D ).
There is also a Gr. word βρύχω brycho "to crunch with the teeth, to gnash, to bite" < *gʷrēuĝh-, gʷrū̆ĝh- in Pokorny, and this "KrK" root fits also good to our scheme, I think.
http://biblehub.com/greek/1031.htm
I think, the possibility of a connection whith bhag/bhaj (ja(m)bh- and bha(n)j- look as if one's j has taken the place of the other's bh and vice versa :D ).
!:D .
There is also a Gr. word βρύχω brycho "to crunch with the teeth, to gnash, to bite" < *gʷrēuĝh-, gʷrū̆ĝh- in Pokorny, and this "KrK" root fits also good to our scheme, I think.
Yeah :) .
I mean that both gh and bh must have been derived from some **gwh; the notion is about "allot, part, portion; cut" > "teeth" > "peg, nail".
Of course :) .
It's possible that "fang" is also connected to this hypothetical root, I think.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fang
Yes :) .
Another root about the TNK / HNK etc type about "pressing" etc, must be *h₂enǵʰ- "narrow, tight; to constrict, tighten, compress":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82en%C7%B5%CA%B0-
Good one :) .
In Greel ἄγχω (ánkhō) means "to compress, press tight, especially the throat; to strangle, throttle, choke; to put pressure on"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%84%CE%B3%CF%87%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
And there is also another word πνίγω pnigo "I choke, throttle, strangle; hence: I drown."
http://biblehub.com/greek/4155.htm
probably from another Greek layer, maybe also connected? (not sure though; it reminds yet niĝin "encircle" :D)
Also σφίγγω (sphíngō) “to squeeze, to strangle”; like in "Sphinx":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%A3%CF%86%CE%AF%CE%B3%CE%BE
probably from another Greek layer, maybe also connected? (not sure though; it reminds yet niĝin "encircle" :D)
Interesting :D .
Also σφίγγω (sphíngō) “to squeeze, to strangle”; like in "Sphinx":
Yeah :).
Sum. barag "throne" made me remember now guza [CHAIR] (1431x: Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. ĝešgu-za; gu-za; gu2-za; [ĝeš]guza; [ĝeš]aš-te "chair, stool, throne" Akk. kussû, most probably related to Arabic كُرْسِيّ (kursiyy) m (plural ; fكَرَاسِيّ (karāsiyy) or كَرَاسٍ (karāsin)) "chair, seat; seating; throne; sofa, couch"; from ك ر س (k-r-s). Compare Akkadian 𒄖𒍝 (kussû [GU.ZA]) / 𒄑𒄖𒍝 (kussû [GIŠ.GU.ZA]), Aramaic כּוּרְסְיָא (kursəyā), Classical Syriac ܟܘܪܣܝܐ (kursyā), Ugaritic 𐎋𐎒𐎜 (ksủ), Hebrew כיסא \ כִּסֵּא (kisé, kissē); [aš-te is in Emesal].
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D9%83%D8%B1%D8%B3%D9%8A
I think it's possibly from some **KR(T?)K', so basically the same scheme as barag (the "r" in case of guza was silenced - or vocalized- like perhaps in az "bear" < HRTK?).
I think it's possibly from some **KR(T?)K', so basically the same scheme as barag (the "r" in case of guza was silenced - or vocalized- like perhaps in az "bear" < HRTK?).
Nice :) .
For a conversation about this word, look here:
https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/etymology-of-the-arabic-root-k-r-s.2249394/
Perhaps it is connected to the root *dher "to support, to hold" (if from **gwher-, together with > *bher):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/d%CA%B0er-
According to the draditional view Gr. θρόνος thronos "throne" is from the same root:
https://www.etymonline.com/word/throne (maybe connected to Gr. "duruna").
The other duruna (for oven, kiln) was compared also to a *gwher- for heat etc (like "furnus").
I agree :) .
The other duruna (for oven, kiln) was compared also to a *gwher- for heat etc (like "furnus").
Yup ! :) .
Sorry, I wrote in a haste again, I meant "Sum." duruna and "traditional" view...
I knew ;) .
In Halloran's Lexicon there is a guz, huz[LUM] v., to gnash the teeth; to bare the teeth; to rage at; to cut, trim, clip; to castrate
(reduplication class: hu-hu-uz) (gù, 'noise', + zú, 'teeth').
I don't see it at the ePSD; yet, it reminded me the conversation about gug "peg, nail (teeth) etc (notion : "bring", "bear", "take", "allot" "part, portion" "cut", "teeth", "peg, nail")
Yes :) .
There must be also some connection of this roots like HNK etc, to forms with "l" (l/n), like the lah we were talking about for "carry", or the "hal" about distribute etc, we have seen before; also with la [HANG] (1399x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. la2; la; lal2 "to supervise, check; to weigh, weigh (out), pay; to hang, balance, suspend, be suspended; to show, display; to bind; binding, (yoke-)team; to press, throttle; to winnow (grain); to carry" Akk. alālu; hanāqu; hiāţu; kamû; kasû; şimittu; kullumu; šaqālu; šuqalulu; zarû
with notions as throttle, carry, press etc already discussed before...
(after all, apart from pharynx and pharyngitis, exists also larynx and laryngitis :D )
(after all, apart from pharynx and pharyngitis, exists also larynx and laryngitis :D )
I think so, yeah :D .
There is also a la [STRETCH] (10x: ED IIIb, Old Babylonian) wr. la2 "to stretch out; to be in order" Akk. tarāşu
I remembered now the conversation about the derivation of lagab and niĝin at Giacomo's (first, I think) post.
Yes .
A kind of KNK/HNK /TNK situation perhaps exists also in the case of *nébʰ- (as in *nébʰos "cloud" etc) and Sum. dugud, in Halloran also "cloud" (also in ePSD aĝar [RAINSHOWER] wr. aĝar5; aĝar6 "rainshower, downpour" Akk. rādu is written as IM.DUGUD) if the -bh is < **gwh again; supposing also a connection with *dhengh "to press, to cover" etc. One must admit there are curious words in *nébʰos, like Lycian 𐊗𐊀𐊂𐊀𐊛𐊀𐊈𐊀 (tabahaza), Luwian 𒋫𒀊𒉺𒀸𒊭 (tappassa) and Latvian debess:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/n%C3%A9b%CA%B0os
Yes, quite possible :) .
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